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Why do we need a book about “Financial” Feminism?
While starting the research for what would become her debut book, Tori Dunlap went through every emotion you could imagine, from rage to deep sadness over what she discovered.
The depth of the gender wage gap, the starkness of the way systemic oppression has harmed women and minorities financially, the shocking statistics about financial abuse, and more. Every statistic painted a story of a society that prioritizes gatekeeping wealth and pushing women, people of color, LGBTQIA+, and other marginalized groups further into the fringes.
Today, Kahlil Dunlap, CPO of Her First $100K and host of the UNSTUCKKD podcast, sits down to interview Tori about her writing process, her manifesto behind writing Financial Feminist (now a New York Times Bestseller!!), and what her deepest hope is for this work now that it’s in the world.
What you’ll learn:
Why the introduction was the hardest part of the book to write
What Tori regrets about her writing process and what she doesn’t
Whether or not a second book is on the way
[00:00:00] Kahlil Dumas: Oh my gosh, Tori, I can’t believe we’re here.
[00:00:04] Tori Dunlap: Hi,
[00:00:05] Kahlil Dumas: Hi, this is so crazy
[00:00:07] Tori Dunlap: it’s so fun to get interviewed on your own podcast,
[00:00:10] I need you to introduce yourself before we really get in.
[00:00:13] Kahlil Dumas: My name is Khalil Dumas. I am the CEO and host of the UNSTUCKKD Podcast where we are redefining generational wealth. And giving you actionable steps we’re getting unstuck in your finances. Career at business and life. Funny story, actually, Tori and I went to the same college but didn’t end up meeting until after.
[00:00:29] So H F K truly brought us together and let us develop a great friendship. Hey Tee.
[00:00:37] Tori Dunlap: Hello, and now you’re a C P O of HER FIRST $100K which is absolutely
[00:00:41] Kahlil Dumas: my gosh. Literally. And I’m just gonna leave that little detail out. That is something
[00:00:45] Tori Dunlap: you’re also a team member now,
[00:00:47] Kahlil Dumas: Yeah, literally. I just like, things are moving so fast and I couldn’t believe like that we’re here. Not only days off from your book launch, but also the fact that I get to proudly call myself Chief Product Officer of H F K something that , in my work and in my career, I am most proud of.
[00:01:03] I thought that it would be great to just start this off with being a little bit selfish here and reading the little excerpt you left me in your book, which is just every time I read it, I get choked up.
[00:01:11] So just for the audience so we can all be on the same page of how special this is. To Kahlil Dumas who championed HFK in my work from the beginning, and that couldn’t be more true. Since day one. I knew that you were going to change the world, had no doubt about it. And your mission is so important.
[00:01:26] And so here we are, days from launch. How are you doing?
[00:01:32] Tori Dunlap: I’m good. It feels so surreal. We, you and I have talked both as coworkers and, and team leaders, but also as friends of just like, it feels like, you know, I don’t know, use a sports metaphor. I’m at the like five yard line we’re, I’m like, I’m, I’m right there. I’m round in like third base, we’re like so fucking close and I’m just trying to lay it all out on the field, right?
[00:01:56] Like I’m just trying to lay it all out there of, doing right by this book and doing right by our team and how much work went into this. And also honoring seven year old me had my nose in any book I could get my hands on. I was voraciously reading all the time and who committed that she wanted to be an author someday.
[00:02:11] So, I’m, to be honest, very exhausted, but also feeling very very fulfilled and I am just so excited for what’s to come because this is, yeah, we’re recording this about a week before the book is out officially, so, yeah. Excited to, excited to hit that. Hit that milestone.
[00:02:28] Kahlil Dumas: It’s been wonderful just to watch you blossom and just to also see. The team and how we’ve all come together and I will circle and highlight like being exhausted. But every time I get that feeling, I just see and read even some of the early reviews and just also just people raving about the fact that there’s finally a book that’s going to represent everyone in the financial space, not just the small few.
[00:02:51] So, I’m personally a huge. Still one of the biggest fans, even as C P O, like I still like, feel like when I’m, I’m looking for your post, like I’m constantly, even though now I’m the one helping curate a lot of it. But I just, I can’t believe that we’re days off. Like I remember when you first started writing and you know, I know there are gonna be many people listening who are aspiring authors and like you briefly alluded to, this is something you’ve wanted to do since you were young.
[00:03:16] So, Like, is being an author the biggest dream you have? Like is that, is that pretty high up on the list? Like, I wanna really dive into that a little bit.
[00:03:25] Tori Dunlap: I mean, you, you, again, you of all people know that that is a dream of many. I think that something about writing a book. Is not just, you know, the seeing your name on a cover, walking into Barnes and Noble or Walmart or Target or wherever, and seeing your book, which is, I’m starting to taste that right now and it’s a fucking thrill.
[00:03:47] But it’s truly,
[00:03:48] Kahlil Dumas: Yes.
[00:03:49] Tori Dunlap: I’ve set it before. It is the hardest professional thing I’ve ever done. Like it was so difficult and I kept H FK running. This was before you had come on the team, before, you know, Karina, who’s our, our COO had really come on fully and like I. I was running a company and also writing this book at the same time in many ways.
[00:04:07] And so the balance of that is just understanding that you’re just looking at a blank page and you’re like, I, okay, I kind of know what I wanna say, but I don’t know how to say it. And I don’t know how to connect that with everything else. And, oh my God, I gotta do research. And I, it’s like a paper back in college, except this is the most important paper of my entire life.
[00:04:28] And also, Trying to do everything in my power to make sure this book does stand the test of time, while understanding that like I, that is not in my control at all. Making sure. For me, as a white woman, I am doing the best best job at acknowledging what parts of my story are privilege and what parts of my story are hard work and understanding that, you know, so much of my lived experience is just not going to relate to other people as anybody’s lived experience is doing, again, more and more research and realizing just how like fucked everything is and like. was so many times during the writing this book that I had to take a break, not because I was exhausted from writing the book, but because I read some bullshit statistic and I was like, motherf, we’re still doing this, you know? And it was like, I got to the point, I think probably nine months in where I was like, I don’t know if I, what’s the point in writing a book at all?
[00:05:20] Like truly, I had that moment sitting on, I was in LA sitting next to my friend Alexis on a beach, and we had like a two hour conversation where I was just like, I like, this is so hard. And also, is this gonna help? I don’t know. I don’t know if this is going to help. And of course we know our advice helps.
[00:05:40] Of course we know because this is why we do this work, and this is why this book is so necessary and in its form of being as accessible to people’s possible. You know, this i
s literally thousands, if not tens, if not millions of dollars of advice in a $22 book. And it also is it’s a book where, we’re controlling the things we can control.
[00:06:03] And there’s still a bunch out there in terms of systemic issues that this book will not solve. Right? But if we can help one person, if we can help five people, I think we’re gonna help more than that. But if we can help more than that, then that’s, that’s why we do this. But there were so many moments during the process where I was like, this is so.
[00:06:20] Just like getting my brain to, you know, come on board . And like, I, I, I’ve joked with friends that it was like bribing a toddler of like, I will give you iPad time. I will give you Timothy Chama YouTube compilation time if you just write this one paragraph. And then I would write the one paragraph and my brain would be like, cool, we’re done for the day.
[00:06:37] And I’m like, no, you have to do that 80 more times. And then you have to edit it 80 more times. So, Honor and privilege of a lifetime truly, but also so hard, . So much work has gone into this and I hope that people see that, and I hope it’s reflected in the book because. Yeah, so much research, so much like testing material in workshops and then coaching.
[00:07:00] Yeah, writing, editing, editing again, editing some more. Getting the sensitivity reader to look at like, so much goes into the book writing process and it’s all for that moment. You get to hold it in your hands. You get to see it on the subway, somebody reading it, or you’re, you know, you get to sign the book in front of somebody, like that’s why you do it.
[00:07:18] That was the longest winded answer ever. I’m so sorry,
[00:07:21] Kahlil Dumas: No, I love it and I think it’s so important and we’re gonna unpack some of it, but I do wanna give the audience some context too. You know, when I, we first started our relationship back in 2016, I was staring down $40,000 in debt, unsure kind of where to go in my financial journey as a black, you know, cis straight man.
[00:07:36] There isn’t a lot of like advice out there that I really saw until I jumped on a phone call with you. And at the time you were spending so much time coaching women one-on-one, like this was your. Mission, and I remember that conversation of the financial game plan, how you just broke down, even just budgeting something that I had just been so intimidated by and just giving me simple steps to do that.
[00:07:58] And I look back to that and after reading, you know, being able to be in the honors to read the book early. It’s just that advice that I know works and you know, that is something that just brings so much joy and I can’t wait to buy 50 copies and give it to the youngins in my life so that they can start early.
[00:08:15] Cuz it’s so important. But you mentioned multiple times how hard this was, and I wanna invite nine year old Tori to sit at the table with us for a little bit. are you talking to her? What are you telling her right now? And also what were some of the conversations you were having in some of those really hard moments when you were writing this?
[00:08:31] Tori Dunlap: I knew you would make me cry. So we were talking before we started recording. Always. So the first time this happened just three days ago, the first time I saw the book in person, I went to the Barnes and Noble, right behind my elementary school in Lakewood, Washington. And I walked in there and that was where I would go when I have, you know, my gift card from Christmas from my grandma.
[00:08:55] And that was just like, oh, if I got to go to Barnes and Noble after school, that was like the biggest deal for me. And I walked in and I hadn’t been there in a really long time, walked in there and I. I could almost see her,
[00:09:09] Kahlil Dumas: Mm.
[00:09:10] Tori Dunlap: I could, I could almost see Child Tori running through the shelves and, you know, going to the, you know, young adult fiction section and, and trying to pick out a book and figuring out, oh, okay, I only have $12.
[00:09:20] Okay, that book’s too expensive. And like, I could see her,
[00:09:24] Kahlil Dumas: Mm.
[00:09:25] Tori Dunlap: could see her with, you know, her, her probably leopard hat, cuz I had a huge leopard phase around that time. And, you
[00:09:32] Kahlil Dumas: an icon. Love it.
[00:09:33] Tori Dunlap: Always in her school uniform cuz she was right after school and just like, I can see that. And I walked in and they had copies set aside for me cuz I had called before to make sure they had ’em.
[00:09:45] And, and I walked up and I, I’m sure we’ll post the video, but I just stood there and cried for a while.
[00:09:51] Kahlil Dumas: Hm.
[00:09:52] Tori Dunlap: I’m taking a second so I don’t blub her into the mic.
[00:09:58] Kahlil Dumas: It’s
[00:09:58] Tori Dunlap: There was so many emotions of just the realization of how so much of my life had led to that moment,
[00:10:07] Kahlil Dumas: Yeah.
[00:10:08] Tori Dunlap: and how I think unfortunately, very few women get to actually live out the dreams that they have before society tells them they’re too small.
[00:10:19] Kahlil Dumas: Hmm.
[00:10:19] Tori Dunlap: That they’re, they’re, they’re not, they’re not big enough, right. That they’re, they’re not gonna. It happened that they’re not gonna be able to do that, right? Like society conditions us to play small conditions us to want less and often demands that. And I have a shit ton of privilege. And again, we, we, I want to be always the first person to acknowledge that I also, of course, worked so hard and I had this moment where I was just so thankful that I was both able. And that I could and did honor the dreams that childhood me had, that that child, Tory, seven, nine 13 year old me had because I unfortunately know that whether it’s circumstances or you’ve gotten in a bad situation you can’t get out of, like the amount of women who are unfortunately not able to honor their dreams in that.
[00:11:16] And that’s truly why we do our work. That’s why we do the, the work that we do is to hope that every single person, but especially members of marginalized groups and especially women, understand that the demand to play small is forced upon them. It is not ingrained, it is not it cannot and should not be your default state.
[00:11:38] And instead, in order to can be control. Society, the patriarchy, whatever you wanna call it, has demanded you shrink. And the feeling I want for every woman is beautiful expansion. The understanding that you can, you can live the life that you truly want. And
I think the way we get there is financial confidence.
[00:12:02] That’s the way we get there. So, Yeah. It was also just the culmination of so much, again, hard work, but also we run a digital company. There are very few moments in our day-to-day experience, you and I and this entire team where we get to hold the physical manifestation of hard work. Right? You can’t hold a TikTok as much as I’ve tried to , you can’t, you know, even in podcasts, right?
[00:12:23] You can’t like hold a podcast episode. And so this was like one of the first times that we have a physical manifestation. And it’s not just like the time I spent writing this book, like I said before, right? It’s like the building of the business to even get a book deal, the building of this content to know that this is the budgeting method that connects with people, the stories and and narratives that I tell that are both my own story as well as like stories of clients or like your story, right?
[00:12:49] And so that’s the other thing is like all the work that went into. even being able to consider that a book might be a possibility. And then I was also there with my best friend who has just been, you know, one, just my favorite person in the entire world and has been so supportive of me and who really truly like feels my wins, like they’re hers.
[00:13:09] And it was so cool to be able to like have that moment with her too. So, yeah, I mean, how does it feel? It feels like amazing and incredible. It’s also. Inviting child, child, Tori to the table if she, she’s just so, so excited. She’s shocked that this is a finance book. That was not the plan.
[00:13:29] Kahlil Dumas: I was gonna say, did you have, like when
[00:13:31] Tori Dunlap: No, this was like, I wrote drafts of like fiction books.
[00:13:36] I even, yeah, when I was like seven, I had a blue binder. I think it was 10 maybe. I had a blue binder of like, I was writing a book on loose leaf paper. Of course it’s 10 year old. It’s terrible. But like I was writing a book, right? And. I am so proud of her and I noticed she would be so proud of me. She would also be shocked that this is the topic.
[00:13:54] She’s like, I don’t understand any of this and I don’t understand why this matters. But she would just be so excited and it’s just, yeah, it was very, it was a very bizarre, almost out of body moment in a really cool way. All of these answers I’m realizing are gonna be about 15 minutes, so
[00:14:13] Kahlil Dumas: No, I love it. No, this is, this is wonderful. And I could, it’s, it’s just so vivid and real for me because I’ve seen it play out over years and so I know how much truth is here. And I love what you said about, you know, women not being able to live out their dreams, and I’ll even push that to even people of color.
[00:14:31] I remember when I wrote my first little, my first little blurb in third grade, my teacher, I, I liked scary movies and I wrote my first scary movie manuscript, and my teacher said that this is like wildly and appropriate, and I remember how much that kind of put me in a box. And I was like, well, today I, I think we would’ve encouraged that creativity.
[00:14:48] So when you talk about. You know this book being a means to help women live out their dreams. Were there any writers that you looked up to or people who inspired you to be confident to talk through your lived experience and do it unapologetically?
[00:15:03] Tori Dunlap: is a great question. I have like the versions of my higher self. That like, speak to me. And they are like, I, I joke, it’s like the Oprah gauntlet. It’s like Oprah, Glennon Doyle, Abby Womack bene Brown, Liz Gilbert. I have a couple, you know, personal people in my life that are, this, honestly, stories from community members.
[00:15:25] That’s really what kept me moving when I didn’t wanna write this book and when like, I was like, oh my God, I don’t wanna do this. I’m like, okay, I know that this information has been helpful cuz I’ve seen it. My favorite one, and I’ve told this story before and I tell it in the book very briefly.
[00:15:40] Last friend Moon, I was with Christine. We were in Italy. This was 2021. And we were actually in line in Florence and we were waiting to see the David. And somebody yelled at my name and it was like, I had known this person for years. And I turn, and I have never seen this woman in my life. And she comes running up to me and she’s already crying.
[00:15:57] She’s bawling. and, um, I, I’m like, are you okay? What’s, what’s, what’s up? And she was like, hi, I’m sorry you don’t know me, but I have to tell you, I found your advice along with, you know, other financial media that wasn’t, you know, the day frames these of the world. And she’s like, I, I was in a emotionally and financially abusive marriage.
[00:16:25] Did not have access to my own money. My husband put our money in a bank that was like an hour away so I could not access it. And I was just so lost in it that I didn’t know how to get out. And I guess one day she had asked herself, would I want my daughter in this similar. Would I want my daughter in this kind of relationship?
[00:16:49] And she said no. And she made the really brave decision to leave it all behind, to take her daughter and to leave this relationship and really leave like a lot of what she had known she was in Italy because as she put it, she was on her eat, pray, love trip because she had started a business. Had made a hundred thousand dollars, had done a six figure year, and was finally taking herself to Italy.
[00:17:15] She was on her own. She was thriving. She had rescued herself, rescued her daughter from this abusive situation because she had money, because she had resources. And I often, I think one of the critiques of my work, the easy critique is like, oh, you want people to just be. Crazy like billionaires. And I’m like, no, no, no, no.
[00:17:36] You don’t need Jeff Bezos money. And frankly, you shouldn’t have Jeff Bezos money. It’s more just like, I want enough money to have choices. I want enough money to be in situations I want to be in, rather than situations I’m forced to be in. And that was like one of the most moving stories that I had heard.
[00:17:54] And so her name was Danielle. Name is Danielle. And
[00:17:58] Kahlil Dumas: out Danielle.
[00:17:59] Tori Dunlap: shout out Danielle, if you’re listening and like that. A perfect example of everything we’re trying to do at her first center. K. Everything we do on this podcast, everything we do with the book Financial. Feminist, is it’s like, how do we use money as a tool to again, be in situations we want to be in rather than situations we’re forced to be in?
[00:18:18] And then when you are taken care of, how do you use money as a tool to better your relationships, to better your community, to better the world? There’s so many stories and we share them in the book of previous clients who have now become friends. We’ve had them on this podcast, Moji. Tricia, there are so many people who I know that our work has imp
acted in the most beautiful way and the hopes with writing this book. is that we impact way more. Here’s the other thing that I think, and maybe you have a question about this, but I’ll just jump right in. You don’t write a book to make money and I’m all about
[00:18:53] Kahlil Dumas: and highlight
[00:18:54] Tori Dunlap: So let, let’s walk through this. So this book’s gonna sell for roughly $22, right? And on Amazon it’s selling for less, but like we get a cut of $22.
[00:19:05] At the peak because the royalties like scale, depending on how many books you sell. At the peak I will make 15%. We will make as a company, 15%. I mean, we can do the math on that. I’m gonna pull out a calculator. No one said I was good at math. That is $3 and 30
[00:19:23] Kahlil Dumas: Don’t put me on the spot. $3 and 30
[00:19:25] Tori Dunlap: and 30 cents. You gotta pay taxes on that money, right? That money actually doesn’t get paid out for a very long time. And this is assuming that I actually outearn the advance that we got because many, many people, when they sign a book deal, actually get a portion of that money as basically like the salary to go write the book.
[00:19:44] And then if you sell enough copies to outearn your advance, then you make more money. You don’t write a book to make money. , there have been so many other things that her first hundred K has done that have taken literally probably half a percent of effort compared to the a hundred percent of effort that this book took that have made us a hundred times more money.
[00:20:08] You don’t do that for the money, you do it for me, selfishly, it was to fulfill a dream I’ve always had, but you do it to. That this advice touches people that need it the most because still a book is one of the most accessible formats. Right? And even if you can’t purchase a book wherever you get your books, whether that’s bookstore or Target, again, Amazon, you could go to a library and borrow it for free, right?
[00:20:33] Or listen to the audio book for free. write a book for that reason.
[00:20:38] Kahlil Dumas: Hmm.
[00:20:39] Tori Dunlap: You don’t write a book to get. Like the books that make you rich. It’s like JK Rolling and like a couple other people like, and that’s it.
[00:20:49] Kahlil Dumas: Absolutely.
[00:20:50] Tori Dunlap: book in the hopes that this will help people Danielle, like Moji, like Tricia, and make this information, which is so needed and so important as accessible as possible.
[00:21:05] Kahlil Dumas: Absolutely. And I really appreciate that. And the accessibility portion has been so great to see even from being able to, and our initiative to, you know, sell this. Throughout indie bookstores has been really awesome to see. I’ve learned so much about that process, but I wanted to bring us back for some of the inspiring writers.
[00:21:22] You mentioned already parts of the book writing process that you maybe didn’t expect or maybe you did expect. What were some of those stark differences, maybe some things you didn’t expect or did expect? I’m curious to hear more about that.
[00:21:34] Tori Dunlap: Didn’t expect it to be this hard. Like I’m a good writer. I think that, you know, I am very motivated, but wow, this was a whole nother beast because you’re working on something that you don’t see the, you don’t see the fruits of your labor even in close to real time, but even like next week, you see them in two years.
[00:21:51] and that’s really hard. And you’re also so in it where you’re like, I don’t even know if this is fucking good anymore. Like the amount of times I like message my editor Harper Collins and I’m like, Rosie is this good? Like, I don’t even know anymore. I don’t know if this is good or not.
[00:22:02] Kahlil Dumas: Mm
[00:22:03] Tori Dunlap: So there’s that, that I think was, was interesting that I did not expect.
[00:22:06] I mean everything, every part if like, if you open up any book, and I will do this now because I know if you open up any book, the author of the publisher and probably together had to make a decision about every.
[00:22:18] Kahlil Dumas: Hmm.
[00:22:19] Tori Dunlap: the inside cover color? What is printed on the spine of the book? What font is the book in?
[00:22:26] How is it laid out? What is the design? Again, how does it, how does, like the book feel? Is it, is it more like scholarly or is it more like, you know, you’re just having a conversation? Financial Feminist is definitely more like you’re having a conversation. I do, you know, I break to have full on like John Elaney quote sessions.
[00:22:44] Like that’s, it’s like I’m talking to you. Okay, well cool. That’s the physical book, but what about the ebook? How is that slightly different? Okay. You’re gotta go into this studio and record the audiobook, which was one of the most thrilling parts I think of, of this whole process was like reading these words out loud because I definitely, I wrote this.
[00:23:04] With a certain voice that hopefully you understand right off the bat you like hear my voice in your head. So really if you’re wondering what format I would actually go audiobook first, because I’m reading it exactly as I intended it. But like all of the things that go into it, you just don’t know. Oh, a book cover, shoot.
[00:23:24] Fun fact. That book cover, I didn’t have an elbow in that. The, the, the way the photo was cropped, I did not have an elbow cuz I like my hand is up. So we had to bring in, who’s our graphic designer, to literally Photoshop an elbow, Photoshop an elbow on that in order to use that photo on the cover.
[00:23:45] Kahlil Dumas: Wow.
[00:23:45] Tori Dunlap: who would’ve thought that?
[00:23:47] Like, just crazy. We had to shoot the cover twice. The first cover photo shoot was just not the vibe we wanted. We had to go in and shoot it again, like, what do I wear on the cover ? Like, it’s just all of these things you don’t realize. And it’s not just like, how does the cover look on a shelf, but really how does it look in a little tiny JPEG online?
[00:24:07] Because that’s how most people buy their books. So that’s just like the creation of the book in general. And then it’s. The fact that just because the book comes out does not mean it’s done. You got another six months of marketing after that
[00:24:20] Kahlil Dumas: Oh
[00:24:21] Tori Dunlap: So it is like a four or five year process even done quickly.
[00:24:25] Like it’s, it’s pretty crazy. So
there was so many things I didn’t know. And I think especially for aspiring authors, you have to, more than anything, you have to really decide if this is what you want to.
[00:24:42] Kahlil Dumas: Yeah.
[00:24:43] Tori Dunlap: Because like a podcast hypothetically, you could get into it and decide and then just not record any episodes if you get into a book.
[00:24:50] There was never an option for me of not doing this book ever, even when it was hard. That was never an option. But if you get halfway through this, you are contractually obligated to keep going.
[00:25:00] Kahlil Dumas: Yeah, that’s, think that’s the big, yeah. . Yeah.
[00:25:03] Tori Dunlap: assuming you get a book deal, which is whole. Other thing is before you even dream of the.
[00:25:08] If you, you know, want a certain level of success, typically you need to go through traditional mediums, you need to get a book deal, and that’s a whole other process. So yeah, there’s so many things to think about. And again, anytime I’m, I’m, you know, in my office looking at a bookshelf, I will look at books and their creations so differently now and with so much more respect.
[00:25:27] And I think it’s very easy to. Realize, oh my gosh, writing a book is so hard. Yes. Also, the entire process of, yeah. Getting that book deal, creating, editing, editing, again, deciding all of these decisions about what, what it’s gonna look like, what it’s gonna feel like, how to market the book, how to make sure it’s sold and, and all of these things that you just have no idea when you first sign.
[00:25:48] But wow, I’ve learned so much. And again, what a thrill of my life. I don’t wanna spend this entire episode complaining, but I do wanna be honest and transparent. This is not easy.
[00:25:57] Kahlil Dumas: Yeah, I’m hanging on your everywhere cuz I have aspirations here too and I think a lot of listeners are going to as well. But I just, one, have so much respect for your commitment and delayed gratification. You know, like you mentioned, that’s something today that’s been completely lost and I’ll never forget seeing that first video of you getting your f.
[00:26:14] Physical copy of your book. Like I could, I know I can’t articulate it as well as you can, but I could see it like, wow, like, it’s like it was again nine year old Tori like showed up right in that moment and I was so happy for you.
[00:26:25] Tori Dunlap: Even when I turned it in, I think that that was really the moment, like when I turned in the final, final, final, which you think is the final, like you
[00:26:31] Kahlil Dumas: Yeah. What
[00:26:31] Tori Dunlap: the final manuscript, but really there was like two months after was the final manuscript like, oh my God, I think I sent the whole team that video, and I don’t know if you’ve seen the raw and edited cut.
[00:26:44] It’s about five minutes and it’s messy. It’s messy. It’s just, I am, I. Ugly. Ugly crying to the point where like, I can’t breathe because it was just, yeah, it was the culmination of so much hard work and also just like, oh my God. Oh my God. Okay. It’s finally done. It’s finally done. Now we get to market it. We did do all the fun stuff for me, but like the writing process is done.
[00:27:05] Kahlil Dumas: Yeah. Absolutely. Wow. I just, again, so proud of you. And I want to get into the book itself because you’re asking your editor, is this even good? A lot of people with the resounding Yes. It’s fantastic.
[00:27:16] Tori Dunlap: I don’t pay him to say that. I pay him for other things, but I don’t pay him for, for book testimonial.
[00:27:21] Kahlil Dumas: Oh, just his all unconditional love baby. Was there a chapter that wrote itself, you talked about, you know, the process as being difficult, but like, was there a chapter where you’re like, oh, I got this. I’m just, you know, I, I, I imagine like Jim Carey just like at the keyboard, like going crazy. Like what was that moment for you?
[00:27:37] What chapter?
[00:27:38] Tori Dunlap: Kahlil, I love this question. You are gonna love this. Okay. this book really hard to write, even though I had tested this material because I wanted to do something different than a lot of our other content, which is, we get into it a bit with the podcast, but every single chapter, the first half is what I call like the patriarchal bullshit of it all.
[00:28:00] is, it’s like what sort of narratives have you? Conditioned to believe about this certain thing about money in general, about debt, about spending, about investing, about earning money, about budgeting, right? Like what have you been conditioned to believe about money? And then what can we do to fix that as individuals?
[00:28:19] How can we pay off debt? How can we budget without wanting to die? How can we spend according to our values, right? How can we start investing even if it feels. So like that part was actually really tricky to figure out because the first half is like, again, like pretty heavy of just like, this sucks , and this is all the research that we did and like trying to like basically blow people’s minds with how ingrained this is in all of us.
[00:28:45] And then the second half is like, okay, what do we do about it? Which I have been testing forever. So the second parts of every chapter were pretty easy cuz I’m like, I can teach how people, how to invest. I’ve been doing that for years. I can teach people how to pay off debt. It’s like the first half of every. The thing that came, this is gonna sound woowoo as shit, but it came like a, like creativity came and just sat on my shoulder. Truly, the epilogue was the easiest thing I’ve ever written in my entire life. It is only a page, but it is the best page of anything I’ve ever written. And it came before the introduction.
[00:29:22] The introduction was the hardest thing I’ve ever written. I went through 12 drafts of it and I hated every single one. I just couldn’t do
[00:29:29] Kahlil Dumas: What made that so difficult?
[00:29:31] Tori Dunlap: How do I acknowledge that for somebody honest to God, living paycheck to paycheck? This doesn’t help. And then still get people to read it , because like it’s still helpful, right?
[00:29:42] But like, I’ve been doing interviews and people ask me like, if you’re living paycheck to paycheck, like, can you give some tips? And I’m like, to be honest with you, no I can’t. The tip is go votes. The tip is support policy change and policy makers that you wanna see. Like there is no budget your way out of systemic oppression, like true systemic oppression where you do not have like two nickels to rub together.
[00:30:07] Like, and then how do I acknowledge that? I know in everybody’s situations are not going to be like mine. However,
I’m using the privilege with that re the responsibility that comes with it to write this book. How do I sum up what this book is? Do I potentially talk about that feminism is for everybody?
[00:30:25] Or do, do we just assume that people understand finally in 2022, the definition of the word Feminist? Like there were so many things that went into that.
[00:30:33] Kahlil Dumas: And if I could just acknowledge how much you, how thoughtful you’ve been. I think sometimes because you’re wanting to hit every note. You don’t stop and see how thoughtful and how loving you are when you approach these things. Because I can tell you, when I started talking to you, I was living paycheck by paycheck, and the biggest thing that inspired me was the fact that you were leading by action.
[00:30:54] And I think. You should give yourself more credit there because I, I know, and I like based off what you just said, how hard that intro is. But the fact that you just get in the trenches with everyone and you look at everyone’s situation with such love and care. I just wanted to stop there because I think that gets glanced over.
[00:31:10] Like just hearing you talk in detail, you’re like, I’m giving 15 minute responses. It’s because you care. And that is what came through the strongest in the book. I felt like I had a friend. That knew me and I, I do , I’m so lucky, but I know others will feel like, like you had creativity. Come sit on your shoulder.
[00:31:24] It’s a friend coming and sitting on your shoulder and diffusing one of the hardest things they’re ever gonna have to understand, which is their
[00:31:30] Tori Dunlap: That’s the hope, and thank you for saying that. And, and with creativity. So again, I’m struggling with this intro. Introduction. I don’t know how to phrase it. I don’t know how to like try to acknowledge privilege to the best of my ability while also knowing like, Hey, I actually have a lot to say that I think will be helpful for you.
[00:31:45] So, hadn’t written the introduction, had tried to so many times. And then the epilogue, it was almost like, it just, it just came.
[00:31:53] Kahlil Dumas: Mm.
[00:31:53] Tori Dunlap: The epilogue informed the introduction, and if you read the book, hopefully you understand this Easter egg is they start and end with the same quote. The book starts and ends with the same quote, which is when you have all you need, build a longer table, not a higher fence.
[00:32:10] Kahlil Dumas: Mm Oh,
[00:32:11] Tori Dunlap: it’s this idea of take care of yourself because you cannot take care of others unless you do. And then when you’re. Instead of gatekeeping, instead of putting barriers around your wealth or around your abundance, build a table so that you can share in that abundance, right? And it’s not fix the table that already exists.
[00:32:35] It is build your own table, right? Build a longer table, not just find a longer table. The quote is, build a longer table, not a higher fence. And that has been one of my favorite quotes for a very long time, and it came to me like I had forgotten that quote, and it came to me as I was writing. I wrote that epilogue in less than five minutes.
[00:32:54] And I’m not gonna spoil it, but it is for me, it sums everything up. It is some of my best writing. And then I realized I just have to convey to people. In the introduction, that quote, right? That’s what I’m trying to do. I have a beautifully abundant table now, and my goal is to invite you to it so that you can get well fed and well-nourished, and then when you’re taken care of, you get to build a table for yourself and for everybody else.
[00:33:24] And that unlocked everything for me.
[00:33:27] Kahlil Dumas: Mm. And when you talk about, right, and I think that is key, is the fact that you’re. A pioneer which is something that
[00:33:35] Tori Dunlap: Shit. Your word’s not mine. My God. Kail. Thank you. Jesus Christ. He’s like, are raises coming Where?
[00:33:43] Kahlil Dumas: No, no, no, no. This, and I, and I want to take a moment like this is from the heart. Like, like everyone listening, like,
[00:33:49] Tori Dunlap: and I I know you. I know it is. It’s so
[00:33:52] Kahlil Dumas: It, it’s, and it’s so, it’s, but it’s so true. And I give flowers and I, and I give them where they’re deserved and they’re so deserved here and. . And where I’m heading with this too is this book Straddles Finance and Feminism.
[00:34:05] And if I Google that or if I just try to find a book on that, that, that’s far few and in between. So talk about that because I think like everything you’re talking about when you’re talking about building your own boat and and helping others do it, a big piece of this is also right. How do you also keep in mind and put women first when you do that?
[00:34:22] Can you talk about the research and just talk about how you were able to kind of sew that throughout the book?
[00:34:28] Tori Dunlap: this book will live alongside the Dave Ramsey and Susie Orman. Books under the business section are in the personal finance section at bookstores. I I am well aware of that fact. I think it will and deserves to be next to. Untamed by Glennon Doyle next to like, we should all be feminists. Like this is, for me actually not a financial book at all.
[00:34:53] It is a how do we stand in our power as women and use money as a tool to do that. That’s this kind of book. I wanted to be a Feminist rallying cry before, before anything else. And I’ve spoken with you about this before and again, I talked about like the Oprah gauntlet, the way I view like Oprah, if she is like a good manifestation of like the, the epitome of like women’s self-help, right?
[00:35:19] We have. Like sex and dating, right? We have like a sex and dating expert, or we have like popular sex and dating podcasts. We have parenting, we have career, we have wellness or health, however you wanna define that. We don’t have a money person in that like women’s development equation. We just don’t. We don’t have a money person because money is either sticky and taboo and people don’t wanna talk about it.
[00:35:44] Or it’s like, oh, money is nerdy. Or again, you have to be good at. Like none of those things are true. We are not a financial company. Her first hundred K is not a financial company. We are a Feminist women’s focused company that happens to use money as our medium. Because if you want any of the rest of the things, you want a good relationship.
[00:36:05] You need to have a good relationship with money first. Do you want to have a kid? You need money. You want to buy a house, you need money. You wanna travel, you need money, you want to go to therapy. Unfortunately, in this country, you need money to do. Like you need money. Why are you going to that job? You need money. And it’s a beautiful
opportunity to use money as a source of joy and stability and ease and luxury. And I’m not talking like Eve St. Laurent luxury. I’m just talking like I can buy a thing without feeling guilty about it. I can take care of myself. Without feeling guilty about it. And in a society and under capitalism, that is an act of protest for a marginalized group, for a member of a marginalized group to play big, right?
[00:36:52] To have that ease and that luxury and that stability, unfortunately shouldn’t be an act of protest, but it is. And so for me, this book, yes, a hundred percent a business book or a personal finance book, but I would say it’s beyond that. This. A necessary book for literally any person, but especially anybody who identifies as a Feminist, specifically women, because get the life that you deserve and that you are capable of, you need money.
[00:37:21] And I’m going to teach you how to get money , how to not only understand it, but how to rack in with what things aren’t in your control, what we can do. To change and adapt to the things that are in our control. And then again, when we’re taken care of and when we’re good and when we have the emergency fund and no debt and robust retirement savings and enough money to take a vacation, then we get to help everybody else do the same.
[00:37:48] Kahlil Dumas: Absolutely. And I want to add, you know, I mentioned again, one of the early readers of the book and my wife read it with me and something she said, which resonated with me too, was you also removed shame again. I
[00:37:59] Tori Dunlap: The biggest thing.
[00:38:00] Kahlil Dumas: there
[00:38:01] Tori Dunlap: Yeah.
[00:38:02] Kahlil Dumas: So can you talk about that strategy like. I know that that’s something that you kind of do effortlessly just because of how much you care.
[00:38:09] You kind of naturally, when you’re, when people hear you like they naturally don’t feel shamed as the other folks in the space use that as kind of a marketing tactic. Talk about how you do that and why you do it that way. Like why do we all feel so much shame and how does this book start to address some of that?
[00:38:26] Tori Dunlap: So shame is the one human emotion that isn’t productive.
[00:38:31] Kahlil Dumas: Mm.
[00:38:31] Tori Dunlap: other human emotion, even the ones that are messy or considered negative, right? Anger, fear, even guilt sometimes. Like those are, those all can be productive. Shame is not, shame is not productive at all. It just makes you feel like shit. It doesn’t spur you to action, right?
[00:38:47] It doesn’t you know, it doesn’t help you process anything. It just makes you feel like. And makes everybody around you feel like shit. It is not helpful. It is not productive. And unfortunately we live in a society of shame, right? And if you watch any child, right? Like I think of um, when I go to like any sort of park and there’s like music playing, right?
[00:39:10] There’s like a band or a bus and you always have these kids who just start like dancing or they just start like bopping around and they’re like flailing their arms. They have not learned. and it’s such like a beautiful thing cuz they’re just like, my body tells me to dance, I’m gonna go dance. I don’t care what, you know, I don’t feel embarrassed, I don’t feel ashamed of this.
[00:39:29] People like they have no concept that this is even a thing, right? Because they haven’t had it ingrained in them that they should feel shame. And when it comes to money, I think that is the number one thing I could, you know, interview a hundred people on the street right now. And if I ask them like, what is the one emotion you associate with money?
[00:39:45] It’s gonna be shame, guilt, fear, right? And. The shitty thing is that this is ingrained in us. We talk about this in the book that we are, you know, we are told don’t talk about money that’s taboo and that doesn’t help with shame. It just perpetuates the shame. And then the very people we’ve turned to to try to understand the shame, to try to get better with money.
[00:40:09] The people who have, we have trusted with this like very vulnerable thing, have been the very people who have made us feel more shame. He who must not be named right, Dave Ramsey, right? Like, we have turned to finance experts. We have turned to these experts and said, here is my situation. Can you help? And as opposed to being like, wow, this must be really hard.
[00:40:30] We’re gonna do what we can and we’re gonna do it together. yourself a lot of grace. You didn’t know this, you didn’t te, you weren’t taught this. It’s okay. You got into what kind of debt you made, what kind of decision, right? It’s all on you. It was all of your mistakes. Of course, you’re not successful, of course you’re not successful, and shame doesn’t work.
[00:40:52] From a psychology perspective, like it’s not even like it sucks, but it works. Like, no, it doesn’t work either. Like it makes you feel like shit and it doesn’t work. So I think. The most obvious, easy thing that unfortunately is a novel thing is to understand that the way you educate is not by shaming people further, especially when they’re already feeling very vulnerable and very scared and very intimidated.
[00:41:19] Don’t make them feel more intimidated. Don’t make them feel more ashamed. That doesn’t work. And it’s also just not sustainable, right? It’s like not sustainable. You might be spurred into action for a period of time, but then that shame and guilt has just only gotten bigger and bigger and bigger. So with all of our work at her first hundred K, but specifically with this book, it was, it is just, it was so natural.
[00:41:41] You’re right. I, it’s always been natural to me of like, yeah, we’re not gonna shame people for this.
[00:41:46] Kahlil Dumas: Yeah. Like that doesn’t make, it’s not like your
[00:41:48] Tori Dunlap: peace of shit for debt. Like, and we’re also going to acknowledge that that shame. With these reasons, right? And it should actually bring you a lot of like clarity and comfort knowing that so much of this isn’t your fault.
[00:42:03] Like the amount of times we’ve gotten feedback, right? Like in Instagram comments or emails of just like, thank you for saying that, the system’s fucked. . Like, thank you for acknowledging.
[00:42:14] Kahlil Dumas: say it.
[00:42:15] Tori Dunlap: Which shouldn’t be a thing, but it’s right. Like thank you for acknowledging that. And sometimes that is just enough to go like, I see you and I hear you, and I may not fully understand what you’re going through or understand your experience, but I know this sucks.
[00:42:29] Like that sometimes is enough.
[00:42:31] Kahlil Dumas: Like full stop, you know? And again It shows in the res
earch, it shows also, which I want to talk to a little bit here in the collaborators. I know you had several collaborators that wrote sections in the book, and so it was so refreshing not only on the shame piece, but a multitude of other very complex areas around feminism and money and just confidence getting your, gaining your confidence.
[00:42:53] Can you talk about why you decided to include. Collaborators in your book, not everyone chooses to do that. And maybe some of your favorite parts about including collaborators, if you wanna mention any and specifically.
[00:43:04] Tori Dunlap: Yeah. So, again, if you already have a copy, you know this or if you’ve already started listening, but we. Taken, I think, yeah, every chapter has at least two or three interviews or experiences from previous clients, from other financial experts, from experts in these spaces. And I did this for a couple reasons.
[00:43:24] One, I’m a cisgendered straight white woman. There’s been a lot that I’ve had to deal with. There’s also a lot I haven’t had to deal with, and I don’t wanna just listen to me for 300 pages, talk about my personal experience, or talk about my expertise. You need to hear from people of color. You need to hear from queer people.
[00:43:39] You need to hear from other marginalized groups about how they’re managing money. The second is that, in that, hopefully you feel less alone, right? Representation matters. But it’s true. Like if you see somebody. Who is, you know, if you’re a black woman reading this, hopefully seeing that you know, black women are featured, it’s like, okay, maybe, maybe I can do it or do part of it, or at least, okay, she did it.
[00:44:02] So maybe I can take some inspiration in that, or at least again, feel more comforted because. You’re represented. The last thing too is that I don’t know everything. There are plenty, again, Dave Ramsey, but plenty of people who are financial gurus out there who are like, it is my plan or nothing and I know everything and they have like a God complex about it.
[00:44:21] There are plenty of things about personal finance that I am still learning all of the time and there’s plenty of ways that other people explain things that I love and rather than I hopefully not. Quoting them verbatim and then saying it’s mine. Like I take have taken so much inspiration from like Ramit safety’s work, and rather than either like commandeering that or just quoting him, I’m like, let’s go interview Ramit.
[00:44:44] Like let’s go get his advice and guidance because that was so helpful to me. Or let’s interview Moji or Tricia who are previous clients of mine, and ask about how they navigated issues. Both of them are women of color, like how did they navigate this? how, you know, what pieces of my Kiran was another early client who’s a woman of color.
[00:45:02] Like how did those three learn to navigate and take my advice and, you know, take other people’s advice and how did they navigate their trauma and the systemic oppression of it all with building wealth? So, there have been so many like beautiful connections that I made, you know, as I was coaching, as I was learning more about personal finance so I could, could bring experts in.
[00:45:24] But we’re doing that for, yeah, we represented. I think a lot of marginalized groups in a really beautiful way. The second is that, again, I don’t know everything and shouldn’t know everything and I can’t speak to some people’s experience. And three, it just offers like a little like breathing room in the book because I know that when like I am reading and it’s just like a lot all the time, it’s just nice to hear from a different voice.
[00:45:45] It’s nice to have like, A real life story or somebody’s expertise. And yeah, I think that that was, that was something that we did very intentionally from the beginning. I had a conversation with even like my book proposal that I put together that Harper Collins signed off on, they were like, yeah, this is an important part of the book is like seeing other people’s experiences.
[00:46:04] And, and yeah, I was like, no Gobbed complex here. We can’t, we can’t have that
[00:46:08] Kahlil Dumas: Yeah. And that it stood out so strongly, and I appreciate you giving you know, everyone a voice in this book, and it again goes back to your selflessness and just back to you wanting to
[00:46:18] Tori Dunlap: It’s also,
[00:46:19] Kahlil Dumas: best way that you
[00:46:20] Tori Dunlap: and it’s my requirement as a white person, as a able-bodied, cisgender straight woman, white woman, it is my responsibility. Like, so I appreciate you giving me a cookie, but like that’s, it’s my responsibility to do that.
[00:46:33] Kahlil Dumas: Absolutely, and I appreciate that. Two more questions here. First off, one of my favorites is what’s next for you in the writing world? I know we’re just now launching, but you know, I had to
[00:46:43] Tori Dunlap: agent who called me and was like, book two, and I’m like, girl, girl. Give me a second of breathing room
[00:46:53] Kahlil Dumas: well, can I, can I get a workbook? Like is there a Financial Feminist too? Like, come on, talk to me, gimme, gimme a little
[00:46:59] Tori Dunlap: Feminist, I mean if, if you love Financial Feminist. And you have purchased it, there will be something in the future because unfortunately a lot of people’s success as an author hinges on like, how well is their first book received, either by critics or like in sales. Like how well does it do?
[00:47:15] So if you do want more , that your support of this book is truly vital. Yeah. I mean, we’ve talked about potentially doing like a companion workbook or journal, but again, this book has to do well and people also have to want that for it to, to manifest. I have definitely have other book ideas, which I’m gonna keep to myself while I’m exploring them.
[00:47:34] But I will take a breather because oh my god. We will take a little bit of time off from writing. Cuz I got a company to run. We have a company to
[00:47:42] Kahlil Dumas: yeah. We,
[00:47:44] Tori Dunlap: and a podcast to produce and all of the rest of the things. So, yeah. And again, the idea with the book is, Somebody hypothetically could pick this book up in 20 years and hopefully find something helpful in it.
[00:47:54] It’s the other reason you write a book, right, is to like stand the test of time. Now, I don’t know if I’ll have children, but like my metaphorical grandchildren, right? Or even like, let’s talk two generations later. Could hypothetically find this book somewhere.
[00:48:05] Kahlil Dumas: I know my kids are reading this book,
[00:48:07] Tori Dunlap: hey, I appreciate it. Maybe it’s in Goodwill, right?
[00:48:09] it’s like sad an
d in goodwill, but like it’s true. Like it, it hopefully is, is still. At least partially relevant later. So, I also wanna bask in that and allow it to like it. It’s not going to be mine anymore. when I release this book, it is not mine. It is the people’s book, but it truly is like, if it is, it is their book at this point.
[00:48:30] And whatever happens, I have no control over it. If it’s hopefully successful, if it hopefully impacts people’s lives, I think it has the power to do that. But we have no control over that once it’s out in the world. So the hope is that, you know, it continues to live on. You know, even when, when HK isn’t a thing when I’m gone and.
[00:48:48] People are just hopefully looking for something that, that, that can help them navigate this crazy world We live in
[00:48:55] Kahlil Dumas: Yeah. You know, and so again, we’re recording this, you know, eight days before launch, and so I wanna invite nine year old Tori back to the table. But I also want to invite. All women listening to this who may be equally excited but also nervous to start to unpack their finance. What are you telling them?
[00:49:13] Tori Dunlap: One, give yourself a lot of grace. Like I said before, this is not something we’re taught. This is not something many of us are comfortable doing. And just like anything that you’re doing for the first time, you will be bad at it. You will, and that’s okay. If you were to give me a set of roller skates and ask me to to roller skate around the block, I would fall on my ass at least once. But the longer I roller skate, the more comfortable I’m going to be. Now, I may fall on my ass still like other times, right? Even when I’m quote unquote good at roller skating, but like it will be uncomfortable for a while. it’s doing anything new, right? It will feel uncomfortable, especially with so much potential trauma and emotional hangups and mindset switches and shifts that you have to make, which is why we spend the whole first chapter talking about all of those.
[00:50:06] So that’s the first thing. The second thing is that you can manage your own money. You can do. You don’t have to be a finance expert. You don’t have to be good with math. You don’t need a finance degree. Again, I’m a theater major. I majored in marketing and theater. This was not part of the plan. This was not, this was not it, but I used resources and also, again, had the privilege of a financial education that I’m hoping to pass on to other people to try to navigate this to the best of my ability. You can manage your own money, and frankly, you know yourself better than anybody else. You know yourself better than me. You know yourself better than any expert. You know yourself better than than anybody who could give you advice. Personal finance is personal. I say that and I joke that I say that in the book so many times, but truly, you can manage your own money because you know yourself better than anybody else.
[00:50:55] And third, getting your financial shit together is your best form of protest. In a society and in a system that actively Gate keeps this information, that actively bars you from building wealth because it wants to keep you controllable. It wants to keep you playing small, having your own money, having financial confidence, even if it’s just a small amount right now, a little tiny teaspoon that is an act of. Living a life where you consider money to be a source of joy and ease and hope and optimism and abundance rather than scarcity is a form of protest.
[00:51:37] Kahlil Dumas: I absolutely love that. Well, Financial Feminist is available now. Tori, this was an absolute honor, honor to interview you and to talk about your book, and I can’t wait for the world to see it. And I will end this with saying, I love you,
[00:51:50] Tori Dunlap: I love you too. Thank you. And I will also do a shameless plug. If you are going to purchase the book, which I so do appreciate, try to purchase from a local bookstore for two reasons. One right thing to do. Indie bookstores need your money. The second thing, fun fact, is that this is the things you learn as an author is that bestseller lists like the New York Times are actually more likely to count sales from independent bookstores than from an Amazon. Purchase the book wherever you can. But if you can, do support your local independent bookstores, and if the book is not in your budget right now, go to your local library. We want this as accessible for you as possible. So if you’re like, I, this is just not in my budget. I can’t do this right now, I don’t want you to not be able to participate.
[00:52:35] That’s not what financial feminism is about. So go to your local library. I, I’m just so thankful to anybody who cracks this book. And if you are a reader, please be an active reader of this material as well. Don’t just be like, cool, that was fun, and then never engage with it again. I wrote this book to hopefully change your life and this advice is hopefully so needed, but also only works if you apply it.
[00:52:58] So, truly thank you Kahlil and thank you everybody for your support. I’ve been saying that so much for, I mean, years, but like, this is so humbling. And it allows me to accomplish personally a dream I have had for my entire life, but also allows us to do really incredible work. So if you have purchased the book, if you have read it, if you have tagged us on social media, if you’ve given us a good reads review, like we cannot thank you enough and I just hope you enjoy it.
[00:53:28] I just hope you have fun reading it. Thank you.