This week, we’re bringing you a special replay crossover episode with Lucie Fink — podcast host, video producer, digital educator, and host of “The Real Stuff with Lucie Fink.” In this insightful conversation, Tori details her journey to becoming a multimillionaire, demystifying the concept of “coast FIRE” and the significance of reaching that initial $100,000 savings goal. Tori generously shares her knowledge on effective investment strategies and highlights the power of financial literacy. This discussion goes beyond building wealth — it’s a call to normalize conversations about money, societal norms, boundaries and navigating the balance between privacy and openness in our personal lives.
Key takeaways:
Financial education and transparency are crucial
Tori emphasizes the importance of financial education from a young age. She attributes her financial success to the early financial education she received from her parents, who taught her how to save, use credit responsibly, and invest.
Privilege and hard work both played roles in her financial success
While acknowledging her privilege, Tori highlights that her financial achievements are also a result of hard work, strategic financial decisions, and effective savings and investment habits. Her story is a blend of privilege and smart financial practices.
Salary negotiation and job hopping are vital for income growth
Tori advocates for negotiating salaries and not being afraid to switch jobs to increase income. She believes that strategic job hopping and salary negotiations were key factors in her reaching her first $100K.
Financial independence gives women options
Financial independence is portrayed as a form of empowerment, giving women the ability to make choices and avoid toxic situations. Tori shares that her financial stability allows her to live life on her own terms, whether in personal or professional relationships.
Financial transparency presents both benefits and challenges
Tori discusses the double-edged sword of financial transparency, especially for women. While being open about finances can inspire others, it also invites scrutiny and potential safety risks. She balances transparency with the need for privacy and security.
Prenuptial agreements are essential for financial protection
Tori emphasizes the importance of prenuptial agreements to ensure fair distribution of assets in case of divorce. She clarifies that everyone effectively has a prenup dictated by state laws, and creating a personalized agreement is a proactive step for financial protection.
Notable quotes
“The fucking coolest part about dating as a rich woman is that you make more than 99% of the men you’re going to go on dates with, and it’s so fucking fun. Any man I’m with is never going to have to question, “Is she only here because she can’t leave? Is she only here because she needs my money?” The answer’s never going to be yes.”
“Here’s the thing about prenups. Every single person that gets married has a prenup. If you are married right now, you have a prenup. Yes, you do, and it was the state. Wherever you got married, Washington State, New York, California, you have actually signed a prenup as part of your marriage license. You have said, “This is how my money is going to get distributed if we are to separate.”
“The expectation around motherhood, the identity around motherhood, is that once you become a mom, that’s your entire identity to the world. That would just be really difficult for me to feel like that’s all I’m good for in the world.”
Episode at-a-glance
00:00 The power of financial stability
07:16 From her first $100K to multi-millionaire
29:41 Navigating the challenges of financial transparency and safety
39:12 Authenticity, success, and mental health online
40:17 Addressing internet trolls and financial transparency
41:42 Navigating body image
47:50 Exploring confidence, pain, and self-care
50:07 Discussing future plans and personal growth
51:57 The realities of publishing and achieving milestones
54:39 Personal relationships and privacy boundaries
01:03:17 The importance of financial conversations in relationships
01:11:00 Understanding prenups and financial independence
Thanks to Rocket Money for sponsoring this episode!
Thanks to BetterHelp for sponsoring this episode!
Lucie’s Links:
Linktree: https://lnk.to/TheRealStuffWithLucieFink
Social: Instagram
Talking about money with your partner can be hard, but it’s necessary. Visit https://herfirst100k.com/ffpod to download our Money Conversation Cards –– 30 question cards to help spark fun, intimate, and beneficial conversations about money with your partner.
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Meet Lucie
The Real Stuff is a weekly podcast series hosted by Lucie Fink, who has spent the past decade getting curious and creating engaging and educational content for an audience of millions. On this show, you won’t hear your favorite guests talk about things they typically share — rather, Lucie pulls them deep into some of the world’s most taboo topics, asking intensely personal questions about sex, money, and mental health, all in an effort to help you feel less alone as you navigate through the world
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
I’m the first person to talk about financial transparency. I will tell you I’m a multimillionaire, I’ll tell you I run a multimillion-dollar business, but I have learned that there’s things that I don’t even want to share about my money. Here’s how I figured out my financial boundaries, how you can figure yours out too, and how you can radically talk about money with anybody in your life, and yes, that’s a teachable skill.
I was on my friend Lucie Fink’s podcast called The Real Stuff, and she spent the last decade getting curious and creating engaging and educational content for an audience of millions. On the show, you’re not going to hear your favorite guests talk about things they typically share. Rather, Lucie pulls them deeper into some of the world’s most taboo topics, asking intensely personal questions about sex, money, and mental health, all in an effort to help you learn that you’re less alone as you navigate through the world.
In this episode, I chat with Lucie about how I navigated buying my first house solo, when and how I brought up money with my partner, and how we navigate shared expenses, including after I bought a house and after we moved in together, and how we can be better talking about money with friends without totally smashing through our own boundaries. But the spiciest thing we get into today is financial infidelity, which is a thing. It’s a real thing of when couples cheat on each other by not revealing things about their debt or how much money they make. Let’s get into it.
But first, a word from our sponsors.
Tori Dunlap:
The following podcast is a DR Media production.
Tori Dunlap:
Welcome back to another episode of The Real Stuff Podcast with our guest, Tori Dunlap from the Financial Feminist Podcast. You likely know her name and have seen her face before because she’s been on The Real Stuff before, but this time, she was here with us live in our studio, and we just had such a fun conversation about all things money and taboo topics. I put a few polls on my Instagram, @TheRealStuffpod, and I asked you guys loads of questions about finances and money and things that have to do with relationships and friendships. There were questions like if your friend buys a house, is it okay to ask them how much they spent or are we all just secretly Zillowing the price of their home? Or what if someone had a parent help with the home sale? Is it important that you tell all of your friends or you tell people that your parents helped you pay for your house or is that private information for you? We also got into a little bit about partners.
As always, when I’m talking to Tori, she just goes. This girl just moves. She’s got a lot to say, and the conversation always just goes somewhere quite insightful and educational, and I always have so much fun with her. Also, as a creator in this industry, one of my favorite things is meeting content creators who are such open books when it comes to how we’re designing our businesses, how we’re organizing our employees, how much money we’re bringing in, alternate revenue streams. And out of all of the creators I’ve ever met, I feel like Tori is the most open and supportive as far as just wanting to hear what you’re doing and giving you instant advice on things that she thinks could totally transform your business. And I really take her advice to heart because she’s obviously a financial expert and knows a lot, and is a multimillionaire and not afraid to say it.
So I loved having her on the show. I really hope you guys enjoy this episode. As always, as you’re listening to the podcast, if you’re enjoying it, please leave it a five-star rating and review on Apple and Spotify. If you’re watching on YouTube, before you get any further into this episode, comment down below and say, “Hi. I am here and I am listening.” And then drop us your favorite emoji, and I can’t wait to see what your emoji is. Okay, that’s it. Let’s get into it with Tori Dunlap.
Tori Dunlap:
Happy to be here. This is the first time we’ve ever met in person, which is wild.
Tori Dunlap:
Honestly, when you walked up those stairs and we hugged, that did not register for me because I feel as if I’ve known you for a very long time.
Tori Dunlap:
I mean, I have. I think I said this the last time I was on, but you were kind enough to do an informational interview with me when I was at my first corporate job, because I watched every single goddamn Trying Loving With Lucie episode, so it was a big deal for me then and continues to be a big deal for me now.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s just been amazing to watch you. I think I probably followed you back after that informational interview.
Tori Dunlap:
Maybe. I don’t know.
Tori Dunlap:
Just watching you on your journey to make your first 100K, and then boom, millions.
Tori Dunlap:
Crazy.
Tori Dunlap:
Here we are. She is a multimillionaire and has one of the top, if not the top, female financial podcasts.
Tori Dunlap:
It was the number one money podcast in the world. We’re very proud of that.
Tori Dunlap:
There you go.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You should be very proud of it.
Tori Dunlap:
Thanks.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s incredible to watch, to listen to. I’m obsessed with the way you show up online and the way you really just continue to put yourself out there despite what anyone says, which you do receive a lot of shit.
Tori Dunlap:
I do.
Tori Dunlap:
Compared to the average creator, you receive a lot of, and it’s almost like a, “Oh, I wonder why?” Because here’s a very successful female entrepreneur who’s making a lot of money, talking about making a lot of money, and showcasing her body in a way that is making men uncomfortable.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, but also makes women uncomfortable. I think that is one of the most surprising things to me that I guess should not be surprising. But as our work has continued to evolve, we’ve helped over five million women be better with money, and we’re at the point now where, yeah, we’re getting feedback all of the time. Some of it’s from, I think, insecure men, of course, and I can write that off easy. The stuff that really actually emotionally affects me, that makes me both angry and sad, is when women comment on our posts, are like, “Why are you bragging?” Or, “You should be more humble.” Or when I post bikini photos in a curvy body, people are like, “I would never do that. It’s embarrassing.” And I’m like, “You would never liberate yourself by wearing a bikini on the beach? That’s sad. I want you to have bikini time on top… I want you to have a great time on the beach with whatever you want to wear.”
And I think that that for me continues to be a reminder of how important this work is, where the internalized misogyny kicks in for all of us. Because we were socialized to believe that there was one seat at the table for a successful woman, and you have to claw your way to the top, you have to push people aside, you have to pick up the ladder as you’re climbing up it, and I’m just so sick of that. Let’s build our own table.
Tori Dunlap:
Let’s make it bigger.
Tori Dunlap:
Let’s make it bigger. Let’s not contribute to the infighting and be like, okay, rather than seeing this woman who challenges my way of thinking as an opportunity, that’s what we want, they’re seeing it as like a threat. It means it’s possible. If a woman’s doing it and liking herself and making money and doing good work, that means it’s possible.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m just thinking of, “Tone-deaf and hot, let’s fucking off her.” Both that songs-
Tori Dunlap:
I just think The Man by Taylor Swift.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, another one I go to, and also, actually romantic, because these people are really thinking about you nonstop. And now that you’re saying it, you’re so right. There is a category of insecure men who see this and who, I don’t know, incel energy, whatever. And then there’s also, I think probably the primary haters are the women who are seeing reflected back, I forget what the quote is, but it’s basically about how we all are viewing the world through our own… Everything is a mirror for what we don’t have or what we’re insecure about within ourselves, and I would have to guess and put my life on the line to say that probably every single nasty comment that you get from a woman who’s for some reason triggered by something that you have or that you’re talking about is likely a reflection of them desperately wanting that trait for themselves, and not having it.
Whether it’s the financial security you’ve built or whether it’s the confidence that you have, that must be very triggering for people, and they’re obviously handling it in the wrong way by-
Tori Dunlap:
But I have so much empathy for it. I have so much empathy for women who have become so disconnected from their own self-trust, and that’s not their fault. That’s, again, a society and a system that every decision you make, everybody asks you, “Are you sure you want more? How dare you want or desire?” Whether that’s ambition or a loving relationship or a good job, you should just be grateful for what you have. And it’s so focused on keeping women controlled, and I say in my first book, an uncontrollable woman is the patriarchy’s worst nightmare, and I love being an uncontrollable woman, but that can be an opportunity or it can be a challenge in a negative way.
And we all have internalized misogyny. I get challenged by women all the time online that I follow too. I have a moment where I’m like, “She shouldn’t be showing that much cleavage.” And I have to stop myself and go, “Why not? Why not? She’s not asking for it. That’s just her body. That’s the way boobs work.” And I have that experience all the time, and I’m a “good feminist” end quote. We all have that experience. The goal is to be mindful of it, and rather than just blow it off or just be like, “Ew, gross,” just sit with it. Why do I feel this way? Without judgment, just like, why do I feel this way about this person? Is this real or is this what society has told me to think?
Tori Dunlap:
Highly recommend people go back and listen to our first episode with Tori, because we do dive into a lot of the negative comments. We read a few of them out loud.
Tori Dunlap:
We do.
Tori Dunlap:
We react live to these comments.
Tori Dunlap:
Fun.
Tori Dunlap:
And so in this episode, I feel like we’ve talked about that. If people want to go hear that, go hear that on their own, but first, catch us up to speed, because since we last spoke, you moved in with your partner and you bought a house.
Tori Dunlap:
I did.
Tori Dunlap:
And you were just telling me about it, so what’s going on with you?
Tori Dunlap:
It is a very recent thing that’s happened. I literally just announced it online two weeks ago, but I went from infamously being the multimillionaire that rents to now a homeowner, and I’m really, really happy. I love my house. I can’t wait to go home and see my house.
Tori Dunlap:
So exciting.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, it just felt like very much the right time to do that.
Tori Dunlap:
And so did you and your partner buy the house together?
Tori Dunlap:
No. So I bought the house on my own, and originally, we were not going to move in together at all. So both of our leases were ending, we were living separately, and we had the perfect setup. We lived an eight-minute walk from each other, a two-minute drive, so it was perfect. It was like, “I can walk to coffee and pick you up on the way, and then walk back to my house.” It was great. And I got to the point where I was like, this is the second time that somebody has decided that they are selling the place I live, and I was like, I’m sick of somebody telling me, “Hey, you need to leave.” That wasn’t on my own terms.
So my first apartment that I lived in alone, I lived in for three years, packed up my stuff, traveled around, lived in New York for a couple of months, lived in LA, did two months in Europe, lived out of a suitcase. Came back in 2022 and lived in the place I was renting for three years, and then when I heard, okay, my lease is ending at the end of June, it’s not going to be renewed because they’re selling it, I was like, “I think it’s time to buy a house.”
Tori Dunlap:
Can we backtrack here?
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Were you one of those people who felt very strongly about whether or not buying a house is a good financial decision, or what were your thoughts on that before?
Tori Dunlap:
As a financial expert, I truly am one of those people that, yes, the math needs to work, but first of all, most people can’t afford a house, period, in this economy. It is a privilege rather than a right at this point to be a homeowner in America, especially in the places a lot of people want to live, major cities, cultural hubs, it’s extremely expensive. So that’s the first thing I want to acknowledge is for a lot of people it’s not even a decision. This is just, you’re forced to rent.
The second thing is I almost bought a house when I was 22, literally was a day from closing on this condo an hour outside of Seattle, in my hometown, like a 20-minute drive from my parents, and I backed out at the last minute, and it was the best financial decision I think I ever made was not going through with it. Now, it would’ve been a smart investment on paper. I remember, I was going to pay I think like 175K, and in three years, it was worth like 220. It was gaining value very quickly, but I was not going to have any friends because I would’ve been commuting an hour and 45 minutes one way to work. Yeah, I would’ve been hanging with my parents every weekend, which, love them but no, and I probably wouldn’t have started my company, because there’s something for me about being in a city where there’s networking events and where there’s that energy. And so yeah, I was like, okay, after that experience, I’m good not buying a house for a while.
I was building Her First $100K, I was focused on that. I didn’t have time to think about the full-time job of going to see houses. And I have always said, both on our show as well as in our content, ultimately, if you can afford to buy a house, great. Make sure it’s what you actually want to do, because the narrative that renting is throwing money away or down the drain, no, you’re paying for a place to live, and you’re paying for the convenience and the luxury of calling somebody else when something breaks. Or, oh, I don’t want to be here-
Tori Dunlap:
There’s a lot of good reasons to rent.
Tori Dunlap:
… for one year. Yeah. It’s actually really great. If you want to go truly math, we’re seeing actually renting versus buying be the smarter financial choice now for the first time ever in most major American cities. So I got to the point where I was like, “Yeah, renting’s lovely,” until it wasn’t. Until it was like, no, I think I’m ready to do this. I know I want to be in Seattle. I have my partner who’s here, both of our families are here. Let’s do it.
Tori Dunlap:
What were your primary reasons for wanting to do it?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I think that first one was people keep kicking me out of my apartment. It’s also, we run our entire company out of my house.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, wow. Okay.
Tori Dunlap:
So we don’t have a separate office.
Tori Dunlap:
So is it a business expense?
Tori Dunlap:
It is a business expense. We get to write off where I record our podcast and where I take my calls, and I was doing that for renting, but also buying, it was like, okay, now that we’re doing all of our production for our podcast in-house, I need a place-
Tori Dunlap:
In-house, it gives a new meaning to in-house.
Tori Dunlap:
Literally in-house, yes. I just want to be able to think about building this the way I want it, and I just really, at that time, felt the most settled I think I’ve ever felt in my life. I know you’ve had this experience too. My work was my life for a very long time. I didn’t have a lot of hobbies. I didn’t have a lot of things making me happy. That’s not true, but it was more like work made me very happy, so I wanted to spend a lot of time with that.
And then last year, I literally remember writing in my journal, I was like, “This is the first year I think I’ve actually managed to achieve the version of work-life balance that I actually want.”
Tori Dunlap:
It’s amazing.
Tori Dunlap:
Which is my entire life did not revolve around work, and that felt really healthy. And I was like, okay, I’m ready to have a garden. I’m ready to have something that I can call home, and I love nesting. I’m a cancer, I love having people over and that makes me really happy. So it was a bunch of those different reasons, but it really wasn’t a financial decision for me. My house is the biggest expense of my life so far. It was very expensive.
Tori Dunlap:
Have you shared how much it costs?
Tori Dunlap:
I have not and I won’t, but it was at least a million dollars, because that’s any house in Seattle, it’s going to cost you some money. And I was like, I don’t want this to be a smart financial investment. I want it to be the thing that’s right for me, and that’s the feeling when I talk about financial freedom that I want for every woman. Even if this is a neutral or even not great investment, but it’s an investment in your health or an investment in how you live or how you think about that, great, because money is a tool. Money is not the thing that is always the goal, to make more of it. It’s like, okay, if I lose money or break even on this house, I don’t care. I get to create beautiful memories here.
So back to your original question, found this house, walked through and was like, “This is it. This is my house.” And bought the house, lovely.
Tori Dunlap:
And I assume you took out a mortgage?
Tori Dunlap:
I did.
I was originally not going to. I was going to pay for the house all in cash, and then I found this house and it was more expensive than I thought I was going to pay. It was more money than I thought I was going to pay, and then I was like, okay, I’m going to take out a mortgage, so I’m also a multi-millionaire who has debt for the first time in five years. And one of the things that I think is so interesting to take, to a quick, put my financial expert hat on for a second, quick aside, is that debt is a bad thing if you’re poor, but debt is a smart thing if you’re rich.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, yeah, because your money’s sitting in investments instead of going to the house.
Tori Dunlap:
Bingo, exactly. And this is why you’ll see, I don’t know, massive celebrities like Adele or somebody who buys a $15 million house, and you know she could buy cash, but she doesn’t. Well, the other thing for me as a business owner is cash is the most valuable thing I have where if we go into a recession, knock on wood but it looks like it’s coming anytime, if our business has a bad quarter, I need cash and reserves to try to prevent layoffs, try to prevent the business from being severely financially impacted. And so once it got over a certain threshold where I was like, “I could do this in cash, but it’s spicy now,” I was like, “No, we’re going to do 60% down,” which is what I ended up doing, and then we’re going to have the rest in a mortgage.
So I moved in. My partner’s lease also ended and he was staying with me because he was getting back from a work trip and was like, “I don’t have enough time to look for an apartment.” I’m like, “Yeah, come stay with me,” and it was going well.
Tori Dunlap:
How long was he there for?
Tori Dunlap:
He was going to be there for a month, but about two weeks in, one, I was like, “This is a house that’s going to be very hard to manage on my own.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, [inaudible 00:18:01].
Tori Dunlap:
So truly, just logistically, I was like, “It would be really nice to not just be by myself.” And then the second thing, he was so great. He was pitching in and doing all of the tasks and the chores that I was always nervous I was going to have to micromanage or mom him about, and I was the first one to bring it up. And we both had been like, “I think you need to live on your own for another year. I don’t think it makes sense.” I wanted to enjoy my house on my own, and then yeah, we started having conversations but neither of us were 100% sure.
Couples therapy’s great. We go to couples therapy normally, but we had a session when we were like, “Okay, we’re going to sit down for two hours and do pros and cons,” and it was very emotional because literally, when he would feel sure, I wouldn’t, and then I would feel sure, and then he wouldn’t. And I think both of us were just like, “Okay, what if it goes poorly? And it means we break up?” And I think we made a pact where we’re like, okay, if this doesn’t go well, this doesn’t mean we’re breaking up.
Tori Dunlap:
It just means you’re moving out.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re moving out and we’re figuring out, but we’ve been living together, what is it, October? It’s three or four months.
Tori Dunlap:
And it’s going well.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s going really well.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m so happy for you.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s really fun. And the stuff that nobody talks about, I drafted a contract, we drafted a rental agreement.
Tori Dunlap:
So he’s paying you rent.
Tori Dunlap:
He’s paying me rent, and I am, I guess, his landlord, which he said that at one point and I had a whole meltdown about it, because I’m like, “No, I’m your partner.” And he’s like, “Yeah, but you’re my landlord.” And I’m like, “I guess, but don’t lead with that.” But it protects him and I. I don’t know, let’s say I don’t fix his bathroom or something, just like any other thing, it protects him. If he needs to get out of the lease for whatever reason, if I decide, yep, it’s not working, we have a 30-day mutual termination clause. We’ve all seen Judge Judy, we’ve seen people who don’t have contracts.
I think that that is one of the misconceptions that I try to debunk in my work, and I know you’ve talked about it before, but that prenups aren’t sexy or that talking about money isn’t sexy. And actually, these are the things that bring you together, when you get to be mutually vulnerable. And yeah, it was messy. There was some tears, there was some back and forth, but there’s going to be no resentment. There’s going to be no conflict because we both know what we’re getting into, and we’re both mutually protected. And especially for women dating men, we all know a woman, many probably, who have gotten divorced and were left with nothing after that divorce or had no idea what was going on with their money, and that’s why you got to talk about it.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s never going to be you.
Tori Dunlap:
No, it’s not, and that’s why you got to talk about it.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know how much you share on social media about the discrepancy between you and your partner’s finances.
Tori Dunlap:
A little bit.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. But this leads me into some of the Q&As that I was… I was doing some polls on the podcast Instagram story in preparation for this interview, and this just guides me gently into the first topic, which is about partners and discrepancies in finance. So I just want to go to that particular poll to see what we ask people.
Tori Dunlap:
Also, I realized that was the longest story ever. I think I just talked for like 12 minutes ago.
Tori Dunlap:
It was a great story. It was a great story and we all needed to hear it. So here was the… We asked people, would you date someone who makes way more or way less than you?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, what did people say?
Tori Dunlap:
We had 88% of people said yes, doesn’t matter. 12% of people said no, too complicated.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Tori Dunlap:
How much do you share about the discrepancies?
Tori Dunlap:
We had an article written about us where we did multiple interviews. We did it on Business Insider, and yeah, I am a multimillionaire, I’m very clear about that. He’ll probably make this year about $70,000, so there is a massive discrepancy there. I don’t talk about what he does for work, but he is a civilian.
Tori Dunlap:
This is a civilian with no… We don’t share his name.
Tori Dunlap:
Nope. We don’t share his career.
Tori Dunlap:
Share his career.
Tori Dunlap:
Nope. But he’s actually starting a business at my-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, that’s so fun.
Tori Dunlap:
… kind push. I’m like, “Hey, have you thought about this?” But yeah, he is in education, that’s what I say.
Tori Dunlap:
So when you met him and he was in education, how soon in your relationship did you guys-
Tori Dunlap:
Talk about money?
Tori Dunlap:
Talk about money? I remember you said this in the last episode, that you thought he might have Googled you and knew who you were going into the date.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, definitely that. So we met at a bar. I don’t think I’ve ever said that publicly, but yeah, we met at a bar, and my friend was wingwoman-ing me and basically showed my Instagram, and he was like, “This is you?” And got this really cute wide-eyed look of like, “Who is this person?” So he knew what I was.
Tori Dunlap:
He knew what I was.
Tori Dunlap:
He knew what I was and he knew what he was getting into. No, he knew who I was, and I guess he went home and Googled me to learn more before the date, and I did the same thing. I think most of us will do a preliminary Google to figure out, are they a murderer? Am I going to be safe this first date?
Tori Dunlap:
This was another question, was is it okay to Google your date’s salary?
Tori Dunlap:
I know. Okay. So salary’s different. So yeah, he knew who I was, but we had a conversation about money on the first date. The check came, which is always a fun debacle.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, first date moment.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Who’s going to pay? And we had this lovely date, it was probably the best first date I’ve ever had, and the check comes out and he looks down at the check, and he looks back up at me, and he looks down at the check.
Tori Dunlap:
Do you remember how much it was?
Tori Dunlap:
Probably like 130 bucks, maybe less. I don’t remember. We were the only people in the restaurant at this time. We had had a two-hour first date.
Tori Dunlap:
The lights are on, they’re closing?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, kind of. They were packing up and they’re looking at us like, “When are you going to leave?” And I could tell he was uncomfortable. I had only known him for, I don’t know, two, three hours at this point, but I was like, “What’s up? What’s going on? ” He goes, “I would really like to pay, but I don’t want to offend you. Can I pay?”
Tori Dunlap:
So sweet.
Tori Dunlap:
So sweet. It literally makes me a little teary-eyed, because he knew, feminist activist.
Tori Dunlap:
And he’s like, “Oh, this is the financial feminist. I cannot be like…”
Tori Dunlap:
“I can’t hold a door open for her,” and I’m like, “Yes, you can.” And I just said, “That’s really sweet. Yes, I would love to have you pay. That’s great.” So we paid the whole bill, but that was the first conversation about money. And it was easy to just write that off. It’s like, oh, that was a cute moment, but to me, that was the best green flag to go, “He’s willing to be uncomfortable.” He’s willing to have even two hours in, a potentially awkward moment to make sure he’s respecting my feelings, but also saying, “This is what I would like to do.” I hear a lot from couples of, especially men, “Oh, should I do this? Should I do that?” Again, I want to be a good feminist boy, but I don’t want to feel like I’m walking all over somebody, and I’m like, “Just ask.” Because every woman is going to feel different.
Tori Dunlap:
Everyone’s different. I can understand how that can get tricky, because you probably do have the feminists who are like, “That is offensive that you would think that a man should be paying for this whole meal. We just went out equally. We should split the bill.” And then there’s other people-
Tori Dunlap:
And then there’s other people who are like, “I don’t want to pay for seven days.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. They’re like, “I don’t think a woman should ever pay.” And so it’s nice of a man to ask because you just never know, especially when you’re talking to someone who brands themself as the financial feminist.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, literally. And so that was the first conversation we had about money, and then we kept talking about money because you’re not going to date me and not talk about money, but the most interesting conversation we had was probably three or four months in. We were getting takeout teriyaki, so a $25 dinner, and I just put my card down because I didn’t even think about it. I’m like, “Yeah, I’ve got dinner.” And he sat down and you could tell he was very emotional, and I was like, again, “What’s up? What’s going on?” And he’s like, “I know that I shouldn’t feel this way, but I want to financially contribute more than I’m able. Basically, I want to be the man, where I can step up and contribute.” And he literally said, he’s like, “I know this is gender roles, I know that this is the patriarchy telling me I must provide, but this is still how I feel.”
And he’s like, “I love that you make money and I love that you’re doing these things, but also, I sometimes feel uncomfortable because I feel like I’m not contributing at the same level.” And again, we’re three, maybe six months into dating, but it’s very early. And I said, “I love that you’re thinking about that. Thank you for telling me. I do not expect equality in my relationship. I expect equity in my relationship. So if you and I are making very different amounts of money, I’m not going to ask you to pay 50%, just like you wouldn’t ask me to pay 50%.” And I literally told him then, “Hey, if we move in together someday, it does not make sense for us to split rent down the middle. We are going to split based on our income or based on the amount of money we have.”
Tori Dunlap:
The same percentage-ish of our-
Tori Dunlap:
Right. 70/30, 80/20, whatever we figure out, but I love that you want to contribute, there’s other ways that you can contribute in a way that’s going to make you feel great, but I’m at the point financially where it’s a lot easier for me to cover it than it is for you to stress about every single purchase. And that’s one thing for couples that needs to be a conversation, is what does an equitable partnership look like? Because equal partnerships, you’re not going to find one. Nobody’s financial situation is entirely the same. Nobody has the exact same amount of student loans, nobody has the exact same financial situation in their families, and this is why talking about money is so important.
Tori Dunlap:
In these early days of your relationship, clearly, it was clear to you that it didn’t matter to you if your partner is making the same amount as you, but did you have thoughts around, I need to be with a partner who has a certain layer of financial literacy or a partner that has some sort of financial goal, or someone that has a trajectory to earn more? Or are you of the camp of that’s what I’m doing and that’s my focus, but that doesn’t have to be my partner’s focus?
Tori Dunlap:
It’s a great question. I’m clearly okay dating somebody who doesn’t make as much money. However, if he would have shown financial red flags to me during that time of very mindless spending, credit card debt in a way that went above his means. That boy’s maxing out his Roth IRA every year, and I knew that very early, so I think that that is really what you’re looking for. It’s not necessarily the amount of money that your partner’s making, but more, are they transparent about money? Are they willing to talk about it? Do they have generally good financial habits or are they bettering their financial habits if they’re not great? Those are the things I was looking for.
I remember going on a date with somebody, this was pre my current partner. He was like, “Yeah, credit scores don’t really matter and I go into credit card debt all time.” And I was like-
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, I was like, “That’s a red flag,” And so that’s what I was looking for, but it is tricky. I would be lying to you if I said, “This is so easy.” It gets frustrating sometimes for me where I’m like, “Hey, we’re going on this really nice vacation. Yes, I do want to stay at the nicer hotel and I will pay for it, but also, we both agree that it’s going to be really nice when he is able to financially contribute more, purely because that’s just a nice thing to do for somebody you love.
Tori Dunlap:
And is your partner, would you describe him as being money motivated?
Tori Dunlap:
I think he is mission motivated more than money, and also the career-
Tori Dunlap:
That’s lovely.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s lovely, and the career he has chosen, this is the other thing, is the career he has chosen, he’s so good at and cares so much about it, but that career does not make money, it’s just the reality of it, and a lot of people are like that. If you’re a teacher, if you’re a nurse, it’s very mission driven work. Nonprofit work, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Tori Dunlap:
But you’re not going to make a lot of money, and I’m never going to fault you for that. You’re literally the backbone of our society. You’re raising and helping educate children or you’re a healthcare… These positions are really important, but they’re very under-compensated.
Tori Dunlap:
And I think where the nuance comes in and the interesting layer that is not really talked about much is it’s amazing to be so mission-driven and to prioritize other things perhaps versus a big paycheck. The conversation can’t come without the discussion of how he has the ability, I don’t even know if the word is privileged, but he has the ability to do that being in a financial partnership with you if he ends up marrying you, because I don’t know if you plan on getting married, but if you guys end up staying together and ever joining finances in any sort of meaningful way, he has the ability to continue going on with his life, not prioritizing the paycheck, knowing that he’s still going to have a great, safe, secure life, whereas not everyone has that ability because the partner they’re with can’t carry things on their back.
Tori Dunlap:
Very stereotypically, that is the role a woman plays in a relationship.
Tori Dunlap:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
Or a stay-at-home mom. A non-compensated working mom plays in that relationship.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
The tricky thing is that if you are the lesser compensated or the non-compensated partner, how do you protect your own money? How do you continue making sure that if this relationship ends, you have an emergency fund, you have retirement savings? So usually, this is the thing I see with women is they go as far as letting their partner, usually a husband, completely control all of the money, and they know all of the accounts and they know what’s going on and they’re not an active participant, and then if divorce happens, they have no idea what’s going on. And so that’s one of the things, when he was moving in, we talked of like, yeah, we need a lease, and it’s not just for me, it’s for you to, again, protect yourself.
So if you just heard my story about my first date with my partner, and you thought, “Well, that sounds nice, Tori, but I have no idea how to talk to my partner or even potential partners about money,” I’ve gamified it for you. If you go to herfirst100k.com/ffpod, you can grab my free money conversation cards. These are 30 question cards to help spark fun, intimate conversations about money with your partner. This helps take the pressure off by making it about a game. It’s just, you’re getting to know this other person, and also getting to know you in return, and yes, you can absolutely play this game with friends too. Head on over to herfirst100k.com/ffpod to grab these money conversation cards. All right, back to the episode.
What was the second poll question you asked?
Tori Dunlap:
Let me pull it up.
Tori Dunlap:
It was, would you date a partner that made less than you, but also-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, is it okay to Google their salary?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, Google a salary, and I wanted to talk about it because it’s spicy.
Tori Dunlap:
I can give you the responses.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
We had about 52% said yes, 38% said maybe, once it’s serious, and only 10% said never.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that maybe once it’s serious is a common answer, because I was talking about salary I think even before we were officially, officially together dating, but also, that’s-
Tori Dunlap:
But you also work in money.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, of course. But I think that’s good to be transparent to a certain level. How accurate is their salary information going to be when you Google? That was honestly my first thing.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s even on Indeed, the salaries are not accurate.
Tori Dunlap:
No, you Google me, the net worth websites are not accurate. Sometimes it’s one to $2 million, that is too low, and sometimes it’s like 25 million. I do not have $25 million, and maybe if I sold Her First $100K. That’s the other thing is what is your net worth truly?
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Is it what you’re worth or what you have?
Tori Dunlap:
Is it what you’re worth? Is it the money in the bank, or is it your assets? And I would define it as a financial expert as your assets. Yeah, my business is probably worth, I don’t even know how much, but if I choose to sell it someday, what is that worth, plus the house and the car and the 401k? But I think Googling your partner or your date salary, again, you’re not going to find very accurate information, and two, I think it’s actually a good opportunity to ask them or start talking about money. It doesn’t have to be, gun to their head, “How much money do you make?” You can start, again, with that guy I was talking about where he was like, “Oh yeah, I go into credit card debt all the time.” They will drop little breadcrumbs for you, and then you can start to put that together to view what their financial picture is, or at least what they want you to believe their financial picture is.
Tori Dunlap:
Also, God forbid you go to share your phone with them, and show them something and the latest search is Tori Dunlap salary.
Tori Dunlap:
I had somebody Google me in front of me on a date.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, no.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, because I started talking. “What do you do for work?” And I started talking about it, and he’s like, “Oh, let me look you up.” And Googled me. And he’s like, “You’re verified on Instagram?” And I’m like, “It’s over.” I’m like, “It’s over.”
Tori Dunlap:
It’s over.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s over. You have beautiful eyes, but it’s over.
Tori Dunlap:
That is so funny. All right. I want to go back to the house for a second, but more in relation to friendships, and this was an area that we polled people about.
Tori Dunlap:
Fun.
Tori Dunlap:
I think that for some reason, for whatever reason, talking about money in the friendship context ends up being extremely taboo. I have best friends who we’ve never once mentioned a single thing about our income or how much salary someone’s making, or family’s financial situation.
Tori Dunlap:
I can tell you why that happens.
Tori Dunlap:
Unspoken.
Tori Dunlap:
Do want to hear about it?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, but I guess the more targeted question that I wanted to dive into is, here was the question I asked, should people share with a friend what they paid for their house if they bought a home?
Tori Dunlap:
As opposed to the Zillow after that? Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
The options were we tell each other openly or we all secretly creep on Zillow. It was pretty fifty-fifty, although a little bit more skewed towards people secretly creeping. I feel like if a friend asks me how much my house cost, I’m happy to share how much I bought my house for, and I do also understand on the flip side, feeling a little uncomfortable being the one to pose that question. Even though I think it should be normal to talk about and it is public information in many ways, something about it feels weird to say, “Oh, how much?” Because you just don’t know what type of person you’re broaching.
Tori Dunlap:
it is Michael Scott at David Wallace’s dinner party where he’s like, “David, how much does this house cost?”
Tori Dunlap:
But is it a rude question?
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Tori Dunlap:
Because I just asked you that.
Tori Dunlap:
No, but-
Tori Dunlap:
But we are on the real side.
Tori Dunlap:
And I’ll also tell you, yeah, I’ll give you, it’s over a million, but it’s more like I would tell you off mic.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally, totally. Me Too. We’ll do that after.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, great. But as soon as you start talking, for me as a public person, in real numbers, then you can start to pinpoint my location. So the reason none of us want to talk about money generally, but especially for these bigger purchases, is very specific as women. First of all, men are conditioned to talk about money. They’re conditioned to pursue money and want money, and they’re applauded for the pursuit of wealth. Women are not allowed. We are not allowed to want money, we’re not allowed to say we want to be rich because we must be selfless at all costs. And something about saying, “I want money,” means you’re greedy or you’re selfish, or you’re kosher and polite. And we’ve also associated having money with being a bad person, because we’ve all met or seen a shitty rich person.
And at the end of the day, money is a morally neutral thing. It becomes moral or the morality kicks in as soon as you decide what you’re doing with it. There are plenty of shitty rich people, there are plenty of very generous, kind, rich people, and I think the thesis of our work is money means options. Especially for members of marginalized groups, money is your way out of bad situations, it’s your way into good ones, it’s your way into safety and stability.
Uniquely with women, so not only are we not allowed to talk about money, but also, we feel guilt and shame whether we’re doing poorly financially or well financially. Men don’t feel that. So if we have debt, if our student loans are piling up, if we’re nervous about going on that bachelorette party because we can’t afford it, and let’s be clear, it’s not a party anymore, it’s like a full week, you feel really, really self-conscious about that. On the flip side, if you’re doing well, me are allowed to own that. Women are not. So-
Tori Dunlap:
Then you feel ashamed.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. “Oh yeah, this designer dress. Oh, but I’m going to wear it 12 times.” Or, “Oh, I got this thing on sale,” or, “Oh, I give a lot to charity.” We hear that a lot with wealthy women. You have to couch it and you have to say, “Oh, but I’m really generous.” And I feel this. As somebody who is very publicly a multimillionaire, I have to be like, “Oh, but I pay my team. I charge this so I can pay my team well.” And all those things are true, but men don’t feel the need to couch.
Tori Dunlap:
So interesting how you feel the need. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. So when it comes to talking about houses, that’s probably the biggest financial decision. It was my biggest financial decision I’ve ever made, and so it’s a concrete price tag. And transparently, I got really nervous sharing the whole process with even my team, because I’m like, I’m really excited about the house and I know they’re really excited for me. I’m sure they would tell me if I asked them. They probably all went to Zillow and figured out how much I spent, and that makes me really nervous.
The other part you have to remember is that, okay, let’s say a house cost $2 million. They didn’t necessarily have $2 million to put down, and so that’s the flip side. This is an asset that you’re putting 20% down or 40 or whatever that looks like. You might not have $2 million in the bank, or six or 10 million or whatever crazy number, but I think with the house in particular, for me, it was the first physical manifestation of my wealth that I’ve ever had, and that was a little nerve-racking. Because I had not made a significant financial investment, other than my business, prior to that. It was all in investments, it was all in my bank account or in reserves for the business, and so I was kind of freaked out by that.
I have friends who have asked me, because they know I’ll tell them, how much money I paid, and I was very open and honest with them. But I have definitely left friends’ houses and done the Zillow check, but more because I’m curious and I was on Zillow. I’ve literally, taking the train in today, was like, “How much does house cost in this neighborhood?” Because I just get really… I’m like, “Oh, what if I just upended my entire life and moved?”
Tori Dunlap:
And moved to the East Coast.
Tori Dunlap:
Literally, that’s how I feel all the time. So I think it’s uniquely very emotional, but because we’re conditioned as women to downplay our financial success or to even apologize for it, because we’re worried that that might impact our friendship. If you’re talking about the restaurants you’re able to go to or the house you’re able to buy or not buy, you’re worried that somebody else is judging you. And to be honest, they might be, because we’ve been, again, conditioned to see people with wealth as gauche, and people without wealth as not trying hard enough. Both of those are losing games.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. And that takes me to the next topic on the house picture, which when it comes to friends, I think part of the reason that people might feel icky about talking about it or asking the question of how much you paid, someone wrote this in the question box. They literally wrote the question, “How are people paying for houses? How is this even happening?” And it leads to that if you’re not talking openly about money and you’re not having the discussions, how are people supposed to get information about this stuff?
Tori Dunlap:
And me talk about money all the time, which is one of many reasons why they have more of it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s it.
Tori Dunlap:
And one of the questions I asked here was, “Should you tell people if your parents helped you buy a house?” We had 62% of people said, yes, transparency. And 38% said no, that’s private info. And I think my answer to this question is, this is circumstantial. If you are close, I don’t think if you are walking down the street and someone says, “Where do you live?” And you say, “Down the block,” and you would have to say, “Oh, but my parents bought the house.” Actually, absolutely out of context and ridiculous. But if you’re talking to a friend and they’re asking, “Hey, how did you actually do this? Because I want to buy a house too and I’m struggling, and your parents did help you buy a house.” There’s friends and a time and a place to share that information.
With my house, Michael and I did not have any parents helping us. We bought it with the money we’ve been working for for a decade. Actually, my parents are particularly removed from my finances in that I’m not even… This is another question, do people openly need to share their salaries and income with their family? My parents are particularly out of the loop with my income. I’ll give them little tidbits of fun projects I’m doing, but I’m not sitting down at the end of the year and walking them through how my business is doing.
Tori Dunlap:
Here’s the spreadsheet.
Tori Dunlap:
Here’s the spreadsheet. Do you want to see it? I don’t feel that private about it so much as I just-
Tori Dunlap:
It doesn’t come up.
Tori Dunlap:
I like to have the boundary of making my own work decisions, and so I talk to Michael about that stuff and not them. But there were a couple of times when I was having conversations with people about buying a house, and they didn’t ask the question of did your parents help or were they involved in any way? But it’s where my brain was going, is that almost like they don’t believe that I bought this house by myself because I don’t share with them how much money I make, how much money Michael makes, what our family finances are. I don’t share that.
Tori Dunlap:
I got the same question, by the way.
Tori Dunlap:
And I assume that’s what people think. And I do feel, for whatever reason, I feel the internal desire or need to caveat my house purchase with a, “But I did it myself.” And it’s like, why? Why do we feel that?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Oh, we could have another hour conversation about why we feel this way. Again-
Tori Dunlap:
So people have asked you this, you’re saying?
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. People have asked me, “You do this whole thing yourself?” I almost said his name. One of my partner’s friends came over. They’re work friends, they both do the same thing, and he was just walking through the house, and it’s a nice house, and he was like, “This is all yours?”
Tori Dunlap:
This is all yours?
Tori Dunlap:
And I go, “Yeah.” And then he would walk some more and he was like, “You bought this?” I was like, “Yes, I bought this.” And he just keeps walking around and he’s like, “You did this all yourself?” And I was like, “Yes. Yes, I did.” He’s like, “You don’t rent it? ” I’m like, “No.” And I think because his field does not make a lot of money, I think that was just like…
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I truly feel like this bizarre pull between constantly feeling the need to acknowledge my privilege because I know so deeply how privileged I am and how privileged I’ve been in my life, and who’s to say if I would be anywhere close to where I am without things that I was just luck of the draw given. And it feels so hard to approach every day from that mindset and to not feel the desire to start giving all the reasons why I worked hard and I’m proud of myself. And it almost wipes out all the proudness that I could feel because I was given the privilege.
Tori Dunlap:
I struggled with that.
Tori Dunlap:
And so it’s almost like, where can I go? Should I just crawl in a hole? Is anything that I’m building actually a result of my work or is it all on the back of the one spot on Earth that I was born into?
Tori Dunlap:
I love that you’re talking about this. It relates, I don’t think you meant to do this, but exactly to what we were talking about at the beginning, which is you see people online and they trigger you in some way. No matter who that person is, they can teach you something about you, so sitting there and going, “Yeah, why am I triggered by this person?” Oh, Lucie, I have so much to say about what you just said.
I struggled with this for a really long time, especially when I was writing my book, because I teach women to be good with money. I’m good at it. I also have my own financial journey that I’ve had. I didn’t want to write a book that was, “I did it, so you can do it too.” And I also didn’t want the book to be, “Just work really hard and things will happen for you.” Because for me, the definition of financial feminism is we do what we can with what we have while we work to change everything else.
But I was writing the intro to the book. I think I wrote 12 different versions of that introduction. I was like, why write this whole book if somebody who’s actually in poverty can’t do anything I tell them?
If you don’t have two pennies to scrape together, I can’t teach you how to save money. I can’t teach you to pay off debt, and that’s not because I’m bad at my job. It’s because this is the way the system’s set up. My first couple intros were just an apology. Literally just like-
Tori Dunlap:
I’m so sorry for everything.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m so sorry. I have privilege. I was trying to figure out, how do I acknowledge it while also not being like, “Ew, gross fucking white girl.” It was hard and I went through so many iterations of it, and the thing I realized is acknowledging my privilege is not an apology, it’s a statement of fact. And yes, I guess I’m doing it for somebody else, but I’m doing it for somebody else so that they know, hey, I am aware of the things that might have gotten me to first base. Now, I still had to run home. There was still effort there, but as opposed to starting at home plate or at the other field, I started at first base.
People, rightfully so, this is not a blaming thing, people don’t have concepts of a financial picture that doesn’t look like theirs. So for most people, again, home-ownership is-
Tori Dunlap:
Out of the question.
Tori Dunlap:
Out of the question, and the only way they would be able to do it is if somebody gave them a loan, whether that’s parents, or I don’t know, a bank, or
They won the lottery. For the vast majority of people, that’s the financial reality. And I think that if you are middle class or maybe even upper middle class, parents do help a lot, but there isn’t the same stigma in the same way with college. I think it’s all like sometimes parents are able to help, sometimes they’re not. I’m very open that my parents had a college fund for me and I also worked three jobs on campus, but you notice I also have to couch it. I have to be like, “But I work too.”
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Tori Dunlap:
We do this all the time. It’s the same thing with buying something nice. Again, it’s like, “Oh, I bought it on sale,” or, “Oh, I’m going to wear it a lot,” or, “Oh, I’ve rented it.” I’ve had conversations with good friends of mine about everything their prenup entails. I’ve had conversations with friends about the money they do or don’t get from their parents, or the money that they’re spending to take care of their parents. We’re having very open conversations, but again, a house is a physical manifestation of wealth in a way that most things aren’t. You look at very wealthy people and most of them are not wearing the crazy designer luxury. It’s like the only physical manifestation of wealth, because most of the wealth is in investments, that you see is a nice car or a nice house.
Tori Dunlap:
And a house, yep.
Tori Dunlap:
Or maybe a PJ if you’re somebody absolutely crazy wealthy who doesn’t give a shit.
Tori Dunlap:
What’s a PJ?
Tori Dunlap:
A private jet.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, okay. I though you were talking about nice luxury pajamas.
Tori Dunlap:
That is my PJ.
Tori Dunlap:
Or maybe a silky PJ set from PJ Solvage.
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap:
I want to go into some of these questions-
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, let’s do it.
Tori Dunlap:
So that we can make sure to answer what some people want to know. You mentioned to me, financial infidelity.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
This was something that-
Tori Dunlap:
Spicy.
Tori Dunlap:
… I was like, “What is the most taboo money topic?” And you said financial infidelity, which my understanding of that was spending behind your partner’s back.
Tori Dunlap:
Or having debt and not telling your partner.
Tori Dunlap:
Which I’ve heard is a thing that comes out sometimes after marriage.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Can you talk a little bit about the stories you’ve heard or what you know about financial infidelity and what’s going on there?
Tori Dunlap:
I will not out her by name, but one of my friends, when I first started doing this work, we were doing money coaching together, and I was doing at the time, literally sit down at a coffee shop, let me look at your budget and everything, and she was like, “I have $80,000 of credit card debt and my husband doesn’t know.” And I was like, “Oh my God.” And this person’s so kind and sweet and transparent, but felt so much shame because they’re like, “I spend money I don’t have. I think I have a bit of a shopping addiction. It’s my way of coping, and I’m so freaked out by it. I’m so worried about going to this person I love more than anything, and being like, this is the reality of it.”
So I coached her through how do you have this conversation? And she ended up talking to him, and he was so lovely about it and was like, “Okay, let’s figure out how we can do this together.” But what I told her was you have to be honest with him and you have to go to him and just be like, “I’m shitting my pants telling you this. I’m so nervous, and I’m so nervous you’re going to leave me or so nervous that we’re going to get in this huge fight about it, and I know you’re probably going to be angry because I would be angry too, but this is what’s going on.” And I think their relationship is stronger for it, but it’s so scary.
Tori Dunlap:
Was that mostly a product of her having impulse purchases?
Tori Dunlap:
Impulse purchases was definitely like… I don’t want to out her, so I’m trying to figure out how do I say this, but her body fluctuated quite a lot, and so it was like, “oh, I’ll spend money on new clothes if I’m heavier and I’ll spend money on new clothes if I’m skinnier,” and then back and forth and back and forth. And it was also too just, yeah, it was like coping. It’s like how many people reach for alcohol or weed or whatever substance of choice. It was shopping, dopamine hit of getting things in the mail or going to the store all the time.
So yeah, financial infidelity, I don’t want to misquote the statistic, but the thing I told you off mic is the last time I looked, I think it was 30 to 40% of partners commit some sort of financial infidelity.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Tori Dunlap:
Which is so high.
Tori Dunlap:
I feel like people even do it for some small purchases that their partner probably would not care about.
Tori Dunlap:
Small purchases I think are fine.
Tori Dunlap:
But they feel they carry something.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s more we’re talking a lot of debt, or having even savings or secret investments somewhere else. I’ve talked very openly with my partner about where my money lives, and if we do choose to get married or even a version of partnership that is more us entrenched, I want both of us to have some of our own money, but I’m going to be transparent as to what that money is and where it lives. I think that’s the other thing, is it’s either I have a lot of debt and I’m ashamed of it and I don’t want to tell my partner, especially if it’s active debt, it keeps accumulating, or it’s I make more money than I actually am telling you I do, or I make less money than I’m actually telling you I do.
The stat I found from my book that was so frustrating, so in heteronormative relationships, men and women, census data tells us that men who make less than their female partners will lie and say they make more, and women in those same relationships who make more will lie and say they make less.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Tori Dunlap:
Because of gender roles and because of the inequity in income, especially with women making more money. So that on both sides is a version of financial infidelity in a way. It’s not transparent. I’m not saying how dare you cheat on your partner in this way? It’s again, very human nature to be like, “I’m apologizing for making as much money as I am, and I feel shame about that.”
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap:
“I feel ashamed that I’m in debt or not making more money,” but how are you going to have a healthy relationship if you can’t be honest with your partner about money? Just like you can’t be honest with them about what you want in bed or do you want kids or not? You have to talk about money just like you talk about all the rest of these things.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Okay. Here’s another question. How to find a good financial advisor?
Tori Dunlap:
Don’t.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. Why? You’re saying do it yourself.
Tori Dunlap:
I am saying do it yourself.
Tori Dunlap:
Get my programs and I’ll teach you how to invest.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. But here’s the deal with financial advisors. If you are going to work with one, you got to make sure they’re doing two things for you. They’re charging you an hourly rate, not a percentage, not a retainer. Work with somebody that’s going to charge you by the hour. And second, actually there’s three. Second, make sure they’re not taking a percentage of your portfolio or putting you in things that charge an additional fee. So if you’re at Edward Jones, and yes, I will call them out by name, run. They’re charging you so much in fees to do nothing for you.
But the third thing, make sure they’re what’s called a fiduciary. You can ask them, are you a fiduciary? This means that they’re legally obligated to act in your own best interest. And you’d think, shouldn’t everybody have that? They’re managing my money. They’re protecting my retirement. Nope. There’s plenty of people who are not fiduciaries, and so will often recommend things to you where they make a very high commission but are not really the best investments for you.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Tori Dunlap:
So hourly, make sure they’re not taking an additional percentage, and make sure they’re a fiduciary.
Tori Dunlap:
Is there no argument to be made that a financial advisor who is more seasoned or works in a better type of role might absolutely be taking a percentage, and that you’re getting a worse financial advisor by going to the hourly people?
Tori Dunlap:
So there was a study done over the last 10 years of investment gains. Only 25% of financial advisors outperformed individual investors making diversified investment choices. So what does that mean? Only 25% of people, so a quarter of the people we pay to be good at their job, were actually good at their job. If I had to have open heart surgery and they had a 25% success rate-
Tori Dunlap:
Fuck that.
Tori Dunlap:
I am going to a different open heart surgeon, or I guess I’m operating on myself.
Tori Dunlap:
Yikes.
Tori Dunlap:
No, and that’s the reality, is they have done a very… The propaganda machine for traditional financial institutions is very good at convincing you that they can outperform the market and that they know what they’re doing, and, “Oh, you’re too stupid to understand.” They don’t say that, but that’s implied. “This is really complicated. I’ve got it.” And the reality is it’s not that complicated. I teach literally tens of thousands of people every year to invest, and also, this billion-dollar industry has been built on making you feel like you’re too stupid to understand, and that is not an accident. That literally how they make money, but only 25% of them outperform you or I investing in the stock market or the listeners investing in the stock market. That’s a really bad percentage. I’m going to pay this person thousands of dollars, potentially more every single year, for them to be not even good at their job three quarters of the time? No, no. It’s a bad investment, pun intended.
Tori Dunlap:
So is your goal to try to show people how to manage their own investments?
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. And you can do it. It’s really not that complicated, and I can give you very quick step by step. You’re going to open an investment account, whether that is what’s called a Roth IRA, that’s a retirement account investment. Google it to make sure you qualify. You’re going to open this at any financial institution. The second thing you’re going to do, if I was you, I would pick a diversified index fund. An index fund is a group of stocks, so rather than just trying to choose the hot thing right now, like, I don’t know, Tesla and then weird stuff with Elon Musk, Nvidia, picking an index fund has hundreds if not thousands of different companies, so it helps mitigate your risk. So that’s what I would do is I would open up my Roth IRA, I would choose something like VTI, which is a total stock market index fund, and then I would just keep plugging my money, buying more VTI. That’s what I would do until you have to figure out as you age what that diversification looks like.
The issue is though, I just said that very simply. You log into your Fidelity, Vanguard, Charles Schwab, Robinhood account and you’re like… They do not make this simple. That’s by design, so that you call them and work with one of their wealth managers and that they take even more money from you. Even, again, I’m a financial expert. I logged into Fidelity the other day and I was like, “This is the most confusing platform I’ve ever seen.” There’s so many graphs and charts. You’re like, “Where can I just buy the thing? How do I deposit money and then how do I buy the thing?” They make it so confusing. We’ve taken out all of that confusion.
Tori Dunlap:
Are you saying that someone who right now has a pretty low income but is still able to have a little bit of extra money should be investing?
Tori Dunlap:
It depends on where you’re at in your financial life. If you don’t have an emergency fund, that’s your first priority, and if you have credit card debt, that’s your second priority.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Tori Dunlap:
Then we want to think of investing.
Tori Dunlap:
Then you think of it.
Tori Dunlap:
The reason behind those, and we talk about it so much in our book and podcast too, is that the emergency fund, you need money in the bank should something happen. Your mental health’s better. Your head hits the pillow. You know if shit goes down tomorrow, you’re going to be fine. And especially if you’re a member of a marginalized group, I need you to have a fuck-off fund. Enough money to say, “Oh, I’m getting sexually harassed at work. I’m going to leave,” or, “I’m in a bad, unsafe apartment. I can get out.”
And then the credit card debt thing, credit card debt is so high. We’re talking on average 22, 23% interest. That’s really, really high. The average amount you can make investing is seven to 10% interest, so if you’re asking, should I pay off this debt first or should I invest first? You’re looking at is it more expensive to be in debt than I could be making on the stock market? And with credit card debt-
Tori Dunlap:
Which it is.
Tori Dunlap:
It is.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Versus a mortgage or a student loan that’s four and a half percent or 7%. That’s right on the cusp, then we’re investing first.
Tori Dunlap:
Right, right. Okay. Such valuable information.
Tori Dunlap:
Yay.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much for coming on. This is going to be such a fun chat. I don’t even know how I could possibly title this episode because it spans far and wide.
Tori Dunlap:
I literally was thinking about that, because as a podcaster, I do the same thing where I have great conversations with people and then I’m like, “What the hell am I going to call this?”
Tori Dunlap:
So what was the title? I think this is just a chat about all things money.
Tori Dunlap:
How to be transparent about finances? I don’t know.
Tori Dunlap:
We’ll be texting to figure out the title.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m sorry. I don’t know. I have no idea.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much for coming back. Thank you for coming to my neighborhood. It was so great to see you in person. Hopefully we’ll have you back for a third time, third run.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that. 3-peat.
Tori Dunlap:
3-peat. Great. Thank you.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminists, produced by Her First $100K. If you love the show and want to keep supporting feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you’re looking for resources, tools, and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to erfirst100k.com/ffpod.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminists, produced by Her First $100K. If you love the show and want to keep supporting feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you’re looking for resources, tools, and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to http://herfirst100k.com/ffpod.
Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Research by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Daryl Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Meghan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
