Job searching is never easy, but for women, the challenges can be even greater…
—lowball salary offers, confidence gaps, and workplaces still steeped in outdated norms. That’s why I brought on today’s guest, Malia Razzaia, Executive Director of Dress For Success Seattle, to break it all down.
Malia has spent years helping women navigate career transitions, salary negotiations, and the systemic barriers that still hold us back. In this episode, we dive into the biggest mistakes women make when job hunting, how to confidently advocate for yourself, and why financial independence isn’t about luxury—it’s about having the power to make choices. Whether you’re actively job searching or just want to future-proof your career, this conversation is full of game-changing advice.
Key takeaways
Job Hunting is Tough, But You’re Not Alone
Rejections, ghosting, and endless applications can wear down even the most qualified job seeker. But as Malia reminds us, it’s not about you—it’s about the system. Too often, women internalize job search struggles as a personal failure when the reality is that hiring processes are flawed, biased, and often unpredictable. The key? Keep going, lean on your community, and use every experience as a learning opportunity.
Salary Negotiation is a Skill—Learn It and Use It
Women are still significantly underpaid compared to men, and salary transparency laws haven’t completely solved the issue. Employers often post wide salary ranges, and studies show that women are frequently offered the lower end. Malia’s advice? Never accept an offer on the spot. Take time to research, assess market rates, and ask for more. Negotiating your salary isn’t just about money—it’s about setting the standard for how you expect to be valued at work.
Your Professional Story Matters—Own It
One of the biggest mistakes women make in job applications is downplaying their experience. Whether you’ve been in the workforce for years or are re-entering after a career break, your skills are valuable. Malia stresses the importance of quantifying your achievements—how much you improved efficiency, how many clients you managed, how much revenue you helped generate. Employers want results, so don’t just list responsibilities—show your impact.
Financial Independence is About Choice, Not Just Money
Financial freedom isn’t about becoming a millionaire—it’s about having options. The ability to leave a toxic job, take time off to care for your family, or pivot into a more fulfilling career all comes down to financial stability. Malia shares inspiring success stories of women who have used Dress For Success resources to gain control over their careers and make life-changing decisions.
Overcoming Money Trauma is a Process
So many women grow up without real financial education, leading to fear, shame, and bad money habits. Malia opens up about her own past with credit card debt and how lack of financial literacy can set women back for years. Her advice? Start small, keep learning, and don’t be afraid to ask for help. Whether it’s seeking financial coaching, career mentorship, or simply changing your mindset around money, healing from money trauma is possible.
Notable quotes
“You are not alone. The system is set up to make you doubt yourself, but you are powerful, capable, and worthy of more.”
“Financial independence isn’t about luxury—it’s about having the choice to leave a bad situation or create the life you want.”
“If women had the same opportunity to participate in the workforce as men, we would add $28 trillion to the global economy—equal to the U.S. national debt.”
Episode-at-a-glance
≫ 08:33 Strategies for overcoming debt
≫ 15:07 Challenges in job hunting
≫ 23:32 Redefining professionalism
≫ 27:41 Quantify your successes
≫ 28:15 Building your resume continuously
≫ 28:40 Re-entering the workforce
≫ 31:14 Overcoming money trauma
≫ 33:12 Negotiation strategies
≫ 37:46 Creating equitable workplaces
Malia’s Links:
Dress for Success website: dfsseattle.org
Find your local Dress For Success chapter: dressforsuccess.org
ICYMI, we launched our first EVER exclusive community where you can get live coaching from me, accountability from likeminded financial feminists, and access to thoouussaannddss of dollars of content on everything from budgeting to debt payoff and more. Learn more about The $100K Club!
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Squarespace
Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase.
Rocket Money
Stop wasting money on things you don’t use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com/FFPOD.
Quince
Get cozy in Quince’s high-quality wardrobe essentials. Go to Quince.com/FFPOD for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.
Netsuite
Download the CFO’s Guide to AI and Machine Learning at NetSuite.com/FFPOD.
Gusto
Run your first payroll with Gusto and get three months free at gusto.com/ffpod.
Indeed
Hiring? Indeed is all you need. Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at www.indeed.com/ffpod.
RESOURCES:
Looking for accountability, live coaching, and deeper financial education? Join the $100K Club
Feeling Overwhelmed? Start here!
Our HYSA Partner Recommendation (terms apply)
Behind the Scenes and Extended Clips on Youtube
Leave Financial Feminist a Voicemail
Financial Feminist on Instagram
Take our FREE Money Personality Quiz
Meet Malia
Malia Razzaia serves as the Executive Director of Dress for Success Seattle, an organization committed to supporting women on their journey toward sustainable economic independence. She also serves as a Commissioner for the Washington State Women’s Commission. With a career spanning several decades, Malia has dedicated herself to supporting women – and the men who stand by them – across various sectors. Her expertise lies in strategic and leadership growth, both for individuals and organizations.
Throughout her impactful career, Malia has achieved significant milestones. She has championed sustainable program development, ensuring that the organizational initiatives of her work create lasting impact. Malia excels in development and specializes in expanding an organization’s mission capacity, allowing it to reach a larger community. Her commitment extends to providing skills development to staff, boards, and communities, fostering growth and Leadership.
As a Lecturer/Faculty in Business and Communications at San Diego State University and international universities, Malia has shared her knowledge and expertise. Her NGO experience spans from US-based organizations to small grassroots international entities, emphasizing anti discrimination, human rights, and leadership development.
Malia’s educational background includes a dual Bachelor of Arts in Philosophy and Religious Studies. Later, she earned a Master of Business Administration in Global Leadership and Management. Her work has taken her across continents, including the United States, Asia, Europe, and Eurasia, where she focused on NGO/NPO Development, Public Speaking, Communications, Marketing, Public Relations, and Leadership Development.
Additionally, Malia holds certificates in Nonprofit Management, Grant Writing, and Train the Trainer. Her unwavering commitment to supporting women and driving positive change makes her an exceptional leader in the nonprofit sector.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
The job market is brutal right now and sometimes you just need a pep talk to remind yourself how badass you are. This is that episode.
Hi, Financial Feminists, welcome back to the show. I am so excited to see you as always. Thank you for being here. My name is Tori. I fight the patriarchy by making you rich. You can subscribe wherever you’re listening right now to make sure you don’t miss an episode. If you’re wondering where to get started on your financial journey, you can go to herfirst100K.com/quiz to get a free personalize money plan.
We brought on today’s guest to talk about the current job market, job trends, and advocating for yourself. But we also really want to highlight organizations like Dress For Success that she works for because, more than ever in the coming years, we are going to need to support local community-focused organizations who are working on the ground with individuals. It is more important than ever that we get money, education, and support directly to people who need it and this is just one fantastic organization to support.
If you have either the finances to give to your favorite nonprofit, your local arts organization, or people running for office, please do. I consistently talk about how money equals freedom and power. When we use our finances for good, we all win. If you can’t afford to financially donate right now, maybe consider volunteering. There are so many organizations who are looking for people who have special skillsets that you might have, whether that’s teaching women to build a stronger resume, or to sort food at a food bank, or to usher at your local community theater.
Today’s guest is proof that this kind of work is so important. Malia Razzaia serves as the executive director of Dress For Success Seattle, an organization committed to supporting women on their journey towards sustainable economic independence. She also serves as the commissioner for the Washington State Women’s Commission. With a career spanning several decades, Malia has dedicated herself to supporting women and the men who stand by them across various sectors. Her expertise lies in strategic and leadership growth, both for individuals and organizations.
We get into Malia’s work at Dress For Success Seattle and why she’s so passionate about helping women succeed in the workforce, her tips and tricks she gives her own team on how to successfully negotiate pay raises and advocate for promotions, and the startling statistics about the workforce when we don’t prioritize women. Without further ado, let’s get into it.
But first, a word from our sponsors.
Malia Razzaia:
Okay. Well, Sadie, the audience is going to be mad if I don’t show you.
Tori Dunlap:
Hello! For our audio only listeners, we have a dog present and she is adorable. Hello. Then she hears my voice and she keeps looking at me. I’m like, “Me? Moi?” Hello!
Malia Razzaia:
She is a 19-pound mini goldendoodle. She is the love of my life.
Tori Dunlap:
I would love if you could tell me who you are, what you do, and why your work is so important.
Malia Razzaia:
My name is Malia Razzaia. I am the executive director at Dress For Success Seattle. I also serve as a commissioner for the Washington State Women’s Commission. Which means that my life pretty much revolves around supporting women on their path towards health, safety, and economic independence.
The work we do at Dress I think particularly there’s this idea, if you talk to your mom or your grandma, they’ll talk a little bit about the clothing. “Oh, that’s the organization that gives women professional clothing.” But we are actually a robust workforce development organization. We strive to support women in this lifelong learning model to find that path towards sustainable economic independence.
Which falls very neatly into the work that you do, as a financial feminist. I don’t have to tell you that when women are financially and economically independent, it is freedom. It is choice. It is the opportunity to live your life in an authentic way. It is an opportunity to support yourself, your family. I think that’s why the work that we do is so incredibly, incredibly vital. It’s why I’ve really dedicated my life to it.
Tori Dunlap:
You talked to us before we got on mic when we were preparing for the interview about money trauma and how that’s showed up for you. I also imagine that shows up for so many women who come through Dress For Success. Can we talk a little bit about money trauma in general for women, but specifically maybe your story and some of the stories that you’ve seen?
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s funny. I listened to your book.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Malia Razzaia:
You talked about the support you had from your family and all of that. In some ways, you and I are very similar. We’re white women who grew up in middle-class families, and had a dad who worked really hard and we had a mom who also worked really hard in the home.
What I didn’t have was the same financial transparency that I heard in your book.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, a conversation.
Malia Razzaia:
And those conversations. There were conversations around, “You don’t want to be in debt. You don’t want to do this, you don’t want to do that.” But there weren’t conversations around how to do those things.
When I hit adulthood, I didn’t truly understand how credit cards worked. I didn’t understand them and I got influenced by a friend who was very much, “Just put it on a credit card. Just put it on a credit card.” I tried to live the same lifestyle I grew up, middle-class lifestyle, the upper middle-class lifestyle realistically. But I was in my 20s making $27,000 a year. I don’t know who I thought I was. But I do know that I didn’t quite understand.
Also, growing up, salaries were a secret in my family. I was never allowed to know how much my parents made. It was one of those things that I was never able to connect salary with credit cards or payments. To me it was always, “Well, as long as I can make the payment, I’m fine. I’m financially stable.” By the time I was in my mid-20s, I had racked up $35,000 in credit card debt because I had no idea.
In your book, you talk about shame. I am not someone who feels a lot of shame or guilt. It’s just not in my MO. But man, did I have a lot of shame around that. That is one of the very strong experiences in my life where I experienced shame. I didn’t want people to know. By the time I was in my mid-30s, I had dug myself out of it. I was proud of myself and then I would talk about it. But getting out of it was hard and it took over a decade.
I will be honest, even now, I still make huge mistakes even now because I didn’t learn the lessons. That is a huge part of the work that I do, that we do. I don’t want women, particularly young women, to go through what I went through. It was really difficult. I moved overseas in my late 20s knowing that that would help me pay my debt. It still took me almost a decade to do. Even within that, I’m living overseas with $1500 a month in credit card bills that I had to pay. It was crazy. I didn’t have the freedoms that my colleagues had that were living over there, that were investing in savings. I don’t have a retirement account that I should because I was busy paying off the decisions that I’d made early in my life. I take responsibility, they were my decisions. But on the flip side of that, those decisions came out of a lack of education and understanding.
It’s so vitally important to me that, if I can support even one woman in not making the same decisions that I did because she has the education, that’s so powerful to me.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s exactly how I feel as well. Congratulations on paying off that amount of debt. That’s a huge accomplishment. I know people are going to be mad if I don’t ask you. In addition to moving overseas, what strategies, what did that look like in paying off that amount of debt? Tips, tricks. What did you use at your disposal to do that?
Malia Razzaia:
Honestly, I don’t know other than to say any time I got a big chunk of money … Living overseas, you often get paid differently than you do in the US, on a monthly or bimonthly basis. Any time I got a big chunk of money, I threw it at my debt. Obviously when I was living overseas, I wasn’t using my credit cards anymore so that helped pay down a lot of that debt. I had a very large personal loan that I had tried to consolidate my debt. Instead, I just ended up with a large personal loan and more debt. I was able to pay that off because it didn’t continue to grow in the way that credit cards do.
That was my strategy, but it reeks of privilege. It reeks of the opportunity, the education that I had to be able to move overseas and work in an environment that provided me with all of my living costs so that the majority of my salary was expendable enough that I could pay off that debt.
If I’m being totally honest, my husband and I do have a significant amount of debt again. Now it’s medical debt because I got very, very, very sick for a couple of years from ’20 to ’22. There is this cycle that’s perpetuated in the US that is really hard to break out of. Even for those of us that are in positions that in theory we should be able to. It is frustrating.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s what we talk about all the time. It’s the lack of education.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s the sexism, and the racism, and the homophobia, and all of the things that impact not only our ability to make money, but the narratives that either we are getting told or that we end up internalizing about money. But it’s also all the policies.
We’re recording this I think a day or two after it’s now been decided that medical debt is not going to count towards your credit score. It’s like, “Well, that should have happened a while ago.” It’s just these things-
Malia Razzaia:
It never should have been there in the first place.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally. Universal healthcare would have prevented healthcare from being a personal issue rather than a systemic issue. All of these things remind me, time and time again, just like you said up top, is money equals options. It’s also unfortunately the barrier that keeps a lot of women from being able to succeed.
In the work that you do at Dress For Success, can we talk about specifically what that work is? You mentioned it’s not just a great outfit for an interview. It’s really supporting a woman’s holistic journey. Let’s talk about that, and also maybe how money plays into that, too. Of when they have money, how does their life change?
Malia Razzaia:
It’s interesting that you mention that because we’ve had a lot of conversations as of late. I think when I came into the organization, I really started adding the word sustainable to what we were doing. I don’t want the conversation to be about supporting women on their path towards economic independence if we’re not going to talk about how to do so sustainability. Because ultimately, that’s where real change comes.
If we are going to sit here and talk about supporting women to get the job, or negotiate the salary, or any of the things that lead to women’s economic independence, what we really need to be talking about is skills. The skills to be able to repeat the process where necessary in order to continue to grow their career across the board. When you get that job that suddenly your income is six-times higher than it was, how do you have the education, we talked about the education before, and the skills now in order to make the decisions that lend themselves to that sustainable success?
The work that we do at Dress is, like I said, imagine a three-pronged stool. We have financial education. We have career support services that include that clothing component that we talked about. Then we have the digital literacy component. This is where the unique design of Dress For Success Worldwide comes in. I think right now there’s 135 affiliates in 20-something countries. Each location is unique to the geographical region that they serve, which is a really cool model. There’s this concept of this global mission to support women on their path towards economic independence, in Seattle we say sustainability so, but the hyper-local focus to actually move the needle.
that is where we have an opportunity to look at what is it that women in Seattle need? What are they asking for? That’s where, for us, there’s this digital literacy component that we’ve added to the financial education and the career support services. One of our digital literacy partners is Per Scholas. It’s an incredible organization that provides tech training. We’re doing that through workshops on everything from providing computers and the training and the model for how to get that up and running to women, to making sure that they have their own computer. Workshops on how to cope with the anxiety of the job search. We’re just about to launch our first ever certificate program in partnership with Harbor Bridge, which is an amazing leadership and HR organization that is launching that with us. We’re creating lifelong learners. We are creating a community, a safe space for women.
We need that holistic approach to create that sustainable path towards equity, financial equity. Without it, we continue to be number two in the entire United States, as in the second-worst for pay parity across the United States. Washington only edges out Utah. That’s it for pay parity. We will stay there until we recognize the importance of this holistic approach to supporting women as they mark their place in sustainable economic independence.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. One of the things that we really wanted to chat with you about because you have so much expertise in this is job hunting, finding a job, making that something that feels like a … I don’t know, job hunting is just so hard. It makes it feel like-
Malia Razzaia:
It is hard.
Tori Dunlap:
… a doable practice. Can we start with some of the pitfalls that you see, or the biggest challenges right now for women who are job hunting?
Malia Razzaia:
I think particularly in Washington, with the tech industry, the dichotomy between the financial support that women receive. One of the biggest things that we see is that when women apply for a position, this great new law in Washington where you have to put the salary on a job description. But one of the biggest issues we’re seeing is that, to get around things, employers are putting this huge range. Which in and of itself is a problem with equity and pay parity. But then what’s happening is that women are being brought in at the low end of that range.
This is within the tech industry, but I think this is across the board in the world.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and any state too … I think we’re at 25 states maybe who are requiring to have salary ranges in the job description. But to your point, we’re seeing 50 to $100,000 ranges.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know how much then. That’s insane. That’s a $50,000 range.
Malia Razzaia:
I looked at a position at Microsoft that had an over $175,000 range on it. I was like, “This is not a salary.” This defeats the purpose of the law.
I think that’s one of the biggest challenges we’re seeing. Study, after study, after study shows that women are ill-equipped to negotiate for salaries. We were not, as women, provided the education or knowledge on how to negotiate for our salaries. Then couple that with how we as women are socialized throughout our growing up years that we’re not even supposed to ask for those things. When you couple those two things together, you see women coming on at the bottom of the salary ranges.
To me, that’s a travesty. It’s atrocious. It is a misogynistic society stepped in white supremacy that is leaning into the behaviors that we have socialized people to believe are acceptable. That is one of the biggest things I think holding women back right now.
The UN’s Office of … Oh, I can never remember it. It’s the OIC, I think. They found that if women were to have just the opportunity to participate in the workforce at the same rate as men, it would put $28 trillion back into the global economy. Do you know what else is $28 trillion? Our national debt. We are literally holding ourselves back at the rate of our national debt simply because we are so stuck in these misogynistic, white supremacy ideals around what work is and what professionalism is.
Any time somebody comes to me with traditional values, that women belong in the home, and that women aren’t equal, and all of these things that we’re seeing in today’s political world, I’m like, “But I thought you liked money. You’re literally holding yourself back by the equivalent of our national debt.”
Tori Dunlap:
Well, that’s how you always know it’s control, because we’ve had that same conversation with abortion is the perfect example. Abortion is a financial issue and people don’t want to talk about it like it is.
Malia Razzaia:
Oh, 100%.
Tori Dunlap:
The very same people who are voting for the “economy,” or who are supporting American jobs, I’m like, okay. If you want to support the American economy, you should not be forcing people to have children that they don’t want and cannot financially afford. It’s the same thing. It’s not really a financial issue because if it was, that would not be where their support lie.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah. It’s not just control, it’s power, too.
Tori Dunlap:
Right, right. For me, that’s synonymous. It’s controlling women’s bodies and the power of that, or controlling the money or the resources.
Malia Razzaia:
Controlling women’s place in the workforce.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Malia Razzaia:
It’s a fear of a loss of power and control. You’re right, they are synonymous. But I also think there’s value in identifying them both separately, too.
Tori Dunlap:
I agree.
Malia Razzaia:
Because I think that you have men who feel powerful that want control, and then you have men who desperately want control because they don’t feel powerful. Then you have women who fall within those lines as well, who have been caught in this social conditioning that they have to step on other women in order to be successful.
The most unsupported of us is where we all are. We have to lift each other up together. Because otherwise, it doesn’t matter how many people get to the top.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Malia Razzaia:
Whoever’s at the bottom is really where we’re at.
One of the things that we at Dress do to really try and support women with this particular challenge is that we provide one-on-one coaching. One of the amazing things … I don’t know, Tori, I’m sure. Have you looked into coaching, career coaching? It’s insanely expensive.
Tori Dunlap:
Very expensive.
Malia Razzaia:
It can be up to $300 an hour.
Tori Dunlap:
Especially for good career coaches.
Malia Razzaia:
For good career coaching.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. There’s a lot of scams out there. But yes, good career coaching, yeah. I think $300 is honestly sometimes-
Malia Razzaia:
That’s low.
Tori Dunlap:
… at the base.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I was just going to say, that’s the base.
Malia Razzaia:
That’s the low.
It’s funny because we look at this where women are the disproportionate number of career coaches. It is an industry where we dominate. There’s this weird dichotomy of, as women, we are coming into this new world where we are asking for what we’re worth. That is amazing, and beautiful, and wonderful, and I support it. And that unfortunately also directly impacts women who are unable to because of the exact things that hold us back. The exact reasons why women are now asking for what their worth are the exact things that are holding other women back from being able to afford that kind of support.
DFSS, Dress For Success Seattle, we are serving as a bridge to support women on their path towards finding that support so that they can get to a point where they can support women who are doing this for a living and have that ability to pay women that value that they provide. We provide that initial career coaching for no cost. You can do it for as long as you need. We’re actually just in the process, we just launched our Coaching Council, and they’re in the process of revamping the entire program. I’m really excited about it, to make sure that we are serving in an authentic way.
So that when it comes time to negotiate for that salary, when it comes time to hold your ground, when it comes time to make sure that you’re putting the right things in your resume or your cover letter, when it comes time to have that interview, that you have been coached now. It’s not just you trying to wing it, going in and figuring it out. But you have the power of other successful women behind you as you walking into those situations. That’s one of the big trends we’re seeing and the work that we’re doing to try and combat that.
I think some of the other things that we see is, again, as women who have been socialized to downplay their strengths and their successes and their leadership, we are working with programs that we’re hosting crafting your elevator pitch. How do you talk about yourself? We’re supporting women on making sure that they have the skills that they need, both technologically, financially, and professionally.
I particularly am a huge proponent of as we talk about professionalism. This is another huge trend we’re seeing that’s impacting women as they’re searching for jobs. Because the reality is is that as women have increased our numbers in the professional world across the board regardless of the position, we’ve been asked to do it as men do. We’ve not come into this world as women. We’ve come into this world as women entering a man’s world. That continues to hold us back in a really significant way. One of the things that we at Dress For Success Seattle are particularly passionate about is what is professionalism?
When you look at the reality of what we call professional now, it is a white-centric male model. It is steeped in white supremacy from all the way back to when this country was founded. I don’t know if you’ve heard of Layla Saad’s Me and White Supremacy, but that book was life-changing for me. I think what I really took out of that is what we present as professional in this world, in this culture, and not just here in the US. But living overseas, everyone’s adopted our model of professionalism. English is the language of business. Suits are what everybody wears. Office buildings are what everyone has created. We are really working to turn the head on what is professionalism and support women. How can you show up to an interview? How can you show up to a job? And really be authentically yourself, and bring your spark, and your culture, and who you are into that, and show them that you can still be successful. Those are some of the trends.
As far as industry and work, obviously the medical industry’s not going anywhere. We have some great partnerships. I tell women all the time, “If you’re interested, healthcare administration is just going to continue to grow.” We’re just now forging a partnership with a subgroup of another group that’s Women’s Healthcare Executives Network because that is an industry that’s going to continue to grow. Tech is going to continue to grow. The banking industry is shifting and changing, but it will continue to grow. We are working with some really incredible partners to get women placed into positions that are supporting some of these industries that that’s where the money is going to be.
And at the same time, then it’s on us to really support also educating women that, as they enter into this position, how do they ask for what they deserve? Which is pay equity. Not just by their paycheck, but also their opportunities, their growth, their leadership, their ability to take care of their families. Don’t even get me started on the care economy and the impact that that has on women.
Tori Dunlap:
You were mentioning job hunting, resumes and cover letters. What advice right now are you giving to job seekers to stand out in those written materials before you even land the interview?
Malia Razzaia:
It totally depends on the job. It totally depends on the work, the industry. I think the number one piece of advice across the board though is be authentic. Don’t downplay yourself. Own your wins and put them in your resume, put them in your cover letter. I think as women, we’re socialized to downplay ourselves. That’s the number one piece of advice is as you’re creating those resumes and those cover letters, do not question whether it was your success or not. Even if there were other people that were a part of that success, at the end of the day it was still yours.
I coach my team on this all the time. Every year when we do our annual reviews, I coach them and I say, “Okay, look at your successes from this last year, own them. And then I want you to tell me how do you quantify them? How do you put numbers behind them so that you can add a bullet to your resume?” Build your resume while you’re working.
That is the other advice I think we would give women is one, build your resume while you’re working. Do not wait until you need to look for a new job in order to start adding things to your resume because you inevitably forget things, you forget those successes. Keep a list of all of the things that you have done successfully in your life, in your career. If you are a woman that’s looking to reenter the workforce, then look at the places you volunteered, look at the work you’ve done within the home, look at all of those components. Keep a list of those.
Then my biggest piece of advice is quantify them. A great example is let’s say you have been a stay-at-home mom for the last 10 years and you’re ready to reenter the workforce. As a stay-at-home mom, you took over the finances from your husband because you wanted to make sure that you could manage the household effectively. You were able to decrease your bills by 10% and you were able to increase your activity output by 20%. These are real numbers. Do not dismiss the work that you have done both in and outside of the home on a resume. I can help you write a great bullet. Something along the lines of increased operational efficiency by 10%. These are facts you have accomplished. Put that in your resume. Don’t just say, “Took a break to be a stay-at-home mom,” and leave it at that.
You have accomplished things. A stay-at-home mom’s annual salary is something like 100 … I’m probably going to get this statistic wrong.
Tori Dunlap:
$75,000. $175,000.
Malia Razzaia:
I thought it was 84,000.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, yeah, pretty close. It’s somewhere around there.
Malia Razzaia:
It’s a manager-level position. It is work, include it. The same thing if you are working outside the home. Every time you have something that happens, how can I quantify this? How do I make this show that I provided a return on investment to this organization? And that I can do it for you, too.
That is the three pieces of advice that I think we’re really seeing across the board. Again, it’s don’t downplay yourself. Make sure that you’re owning your work and your successes. Make sure you’re quantifying those successes, putting numbers where you can. I’ll be the one to argue you can put numbers pretty much anywhere. I will put it out there. If you’re not sure how to put numbers to it, reach out to Dress For Success Seattle. I will help you put numbers to it. That third one, keep a running list. Be updating your resume on a quaterly basis. You don’t want to forget anything.
I’ve never met a woman that doesn’t have a list as long as her arm of the things that she’s accomplished. Keep track of those because you’re a badass. We all are.
Tori Dunlap:
We were talking about money trauma before. How do you see this show up for the women you work with when they’re out on job interviews, or when they’re negotiating their salaries? And if someone’s listening and experiencing that themselves, what are the strategies they can use to move through that trauma and be able to advocate for themselves effectively?
Malia Razzaia:
I hate to say this but it is really how we have grown up, what we have been taught. There is this absolutely deeply ingrained trauma that we as women have that we are not allowed to ask for what we are worth. I cannot tell you the number of times that I have seen women, whether they be my friends, our clients, whomever, they go into an interview and they’re like, “Yeah, I have this. I got this. I can do this. I’m going to ask for this much,” and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then they get in there and that trauma takes hold. Now all of a sudden, they’re terrified that they’re not going to get the job, so now they don’t fight for what they went in ready to fight for.
The first thing that I want to say is you’re not alone. The second thing I want to say, not that it’s not your fault, but don’t beat yourself up over it. You have been set up to fail by the system. To fight against that is incredibly exhausting, and difficult, and overwhelming. When you get into a situation where now you have to fight against it, sometimes it’s just too much.
My advice, my feedback. If you feel yourself starting to have that trauma take over, and you’re starting to waiver and waffle, take a deep breath. Breathe. Also, remember it’s okay to ask for time. I think that’s the number one thing is that there’s this pressure. Women in particular, we feel like we have to answer. We’re not allowed to ask for what we want, so we don’t ask for time. I tell women all the time and I tell my team this, do not accept an offer the minute that it comes to you. Do not.
Tori Dunlap:
Even if it’s a fantastic offer, by the way.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Even if it’s more money than you could have dreamed. You have to take time, one, because you need to think it over.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You need to be able to process it. From a physiological standpoint, you need your brain to sit with it for a second. You also need to go home and do some research, and make sure that’s a market rate.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You need to make sure how is my personal finances going to make sense with this number. But also, you need to probably prepare to ask for more money. Then the final thing, and I’m probably taking the words out of your mouth-
Malia Razzaia:
No, no, no. I love it.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m sorry, I just got excited.
Malia Razzaia:
I love it.
Tori Dunlap:
The other thing too is that you need to … When you ask for time, you control the situation then. You can say, “Hey, I need a day. I’ll get back to you tomorrow. Does that work?” You get to slow down and you get to call the shorts. It sets up your negotiation, again, psychologically, it makes you feel more powerful because you’re setting terms then.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah, 100%. I think you used a really important point there, control. It puts you back in the driver’s seat. If nothing else, is where the power comes from.
You’re going to see it all over our website because it’s some older verbiage where we talk about how we empower women. I’ve really come in and I’ve said, “No. Empowerment is something you do yourself.” What we do is support women to stand in their own power. When I heard that in your book, Tori, I was like, “Yes! This is what I’ve been saying!” I was so excited. Because the reality is is that that is what I’m going to say is stand in your power. Take control of the situation.
I’m sure that there are a ton of women that are listening right now that are like, “Oh, no. I can’t do that.” I’m going to tell you, yes, you can. If by no other means, just taking a deep breath and not answering right away. Fight the urge, fight the compulsion to give an immediate answer. You don’t have to. Ask for a day, ask for some time. Do the research.
Then the other thing is, and I know that this comes from a place of privilege and I want to acknowledge that, but I want to also acknowledge if they’re not going to pay you your worth, if they’re not going to give you the time in the interview, what do you think is going to happen when you work there? Is that really an organization that you want to work for? Where the privilege comes in here is that I know that there are a lot of women in situations and in places where they cannot turn down a job. They need the income.
But that’s where I would say that’s where you start keeping your list, and you’re updating your resume. Every day, you’re writing down the new success you had that day. Every day, you are taking the time to make sure that you’re preparing yourself for the next job so that you can negotiate your worth and you can work for an organization that values you. And that is going to put the time, the effort, and the belief into you, and give you the flexibility that you need to be the woman that you need to be in a workforce. Not the person, the woman that you need to be.
This hearkens back to what I said earlier. We’ve been taught to come into the workforce as men and I’m tired of it. Because of how society is set up, we are women who experience different needs, different requirements. Until society does a major flip, that’s not going to change. We need the flexibility in the work environment that’s going to address that.
If you are in a position where you have to take a job that’s not going to honor you as a woman in the workforce, that’s okay. But it also means that now you have an opportunity to use that job as a stepping stone to find the job that will honor you as a woman in the workforce.
Tori Dunlap:
When we’re talking about people listening who are not only looking for jobs, but trying to support the kind of equitable workplaces that we want to see, what are some specific things that we can do to make sure that we are supporting and hiring people who are really great and need work? How do we show up not just on the job searching end, but how do we show up at the workplaces that we want to see more of?
Malia Razzaia:
I spend a lot of time thinking about this actually as an employer. When I came into the workforce, it was really hard. It was toxic, it was ugly. The things that were said to me as a woman.
I remember walking into a meeting with my boss, his boss, and the admin. I remember them sitting me down in this conference room and I thought I had been killing it. They started ripping into me about all of these things. But one of the things that I took back was that the biggest thing that they gave me a hard time for was that I showed too much cleavage. You can’t see it probably, maybe you can in the camera, I don’t know. But, Tori, I could wear a turtleneck and show cleavage. It is my body shape.
Tori Dunlap:
Girl, same. Yeah.
Malia Razzaia:
Right? The fact that these people felt that they had the right to criticize my physical appearance because I was a woman and wasn’t fitting into their misogynistic box of what professional looked like is something that has stuck with me for the rest of time.
As I step into being a leader in an organization, those are the things that have guided me and they’re the things that I tell other leaders that have the ability to control workplace culture. Because that’s really what it comes down to, it’s workplace culture. The things that support women in the workplace are workplace culture. Treat your staff like adults. They’re grownups. They have every right to the flexibility and the trust that you have in yourself. If my team says that they need a day off, heck, if they say they need a week off, it’s not my place to question that. It’s my place to say, “How can I support you? How do we make sure your stuff is covered while you’re out?”
If I’m going to talk about pay equity and pay parity across the board, I’m going to make sure that my team is getting the same treatment. That they have the benefits, that they have the salary. In fact, we’re in the middle of increasing salaries right now. We did a review of salaries and we made sure that we recognized that we were below par and we were under mission. Now we’re working to bring those up.
I think that is something I tell employers all the time. If you want to be a good employer, make sure that in addition to trusting your people and recognizing them as adults, pay them what they are worth. Also, provide them the benefits that support them being able to show up at work with a healthy mindset.
For example, just recently someone was asking about high deductible health plans. I’m going to use this as an example. High deductible health plans are a joke. They are awful and I will die on this hill. That they do nothing other than continue to create the marginalized valley between individuals who have the financial resource and those who do not. If you’re going to come into a workplace and tout to me that you’re offering 100% employer-based healthcare for your entire staff and then you’re going to tell me that it’s a high deductible health plan, then you are not providing a benefit to your staff.
These are the decisions that you as an employer can make to ensure that your staff have the resources necessary and needed to show up to work in a healthy way that allows them to then focus on that work. That’s one example. There’s lots of examples. Childcare. There’s time off for moms. A whole number of things that, if you are going to be an employer in today’s world, your single responsibility as an employer is to ensure that your teams, your employees are supported in a way that will bring them the ability to not worry about those things in their lives so that they can actually focus on getting work done.
For example, I’m just going to throw it out there. Amazon calling in all of their employees because they don’t want to waste the money on the big orbs that they put in Downtown Seattle.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Malia Razzaia:
That is not equitable practice. That will disproportionately impact women in the workplace for a million reasons.
Tori Dunlap:
We’re also talking about Amazon Corporate. We’re not talking about the warehouses. They’ve been working in-person this entire time.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah. Sorry, yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Malia Razzaia:
We’re talking about Amazon Corporate.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Malia Razzaia:
But you want to talk about equitable work practices, make decisions that provide equitable practices. Calling in your entire staff, your corporate staff to come back into the office on a five day a week status is not an equitable decision.
That is what I would tell employers. Make decisions that bring equity to your team. Provide flexibility. Trust them. Provide them the benefits that make their lives a little bit easier.
Tori Dunlap:
Can you tell me about some of your favorite success stories that you’ve seen at Dress For Success? I also just want to specify, obviously you and I are both located in Seattle.
Malia Razzaia:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
You said it was 130 different locations? Dress For Success is all over.
Malia Razzaia:
135 affiliates.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Dress For Success is all over. I imagine these sort of success stories and this work is available in your community as well. But tell me some of your favorite highlight. Give me the highlight reel.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah. For anyone listening, there is probably a Dress somewhere within the relative vicinity of where you are. We all have this same mission, this global mission to support women on their path towards economic independence, but we get to do it in a hyper-local way.
I’ve talked a lot about how we’re doing that here in Seattle. But each Dress is going to do that based on the work and the need that needs to happen within their community. In Portland, they have an incredible partnership with the state for some of their social support programs because that’s what’s needed down there. We don’t have that same partnership. Find the Dress near you. They will have programs and services to support you.
The reality is that there’s this idea that the women who come through Dress are in a certain financial situation or economic situation. The reality is is that that Dress is for any woman, any woman who is looking to find financial and career stability. Some of my successes are some of the women that came in in situations where they were really struggling and they were trying to better their situation. But some of my successes are women who had found success and just needed the community of women and the support.
One of the ones I was talking about yesterday was a woman who, she had popped into my office, she was volunteering. She was a client and utilized our career coaching services. She was telling me, she’s like, “You know, Malia, I left a job after 14 years and I couldn’t bring myself to get into a new role. I couldn’t figure out what was going on. When I joined the career coaching program, I realized that I had spent 14 years in a toxic environment and I had no idea. I had to work through that toxicity before I could get back into the workforce.” Eventually she was able to get back into the workforce. She worked through it with her career coach and was able to find great success. We are really proud of that.
There’s also a young woman who came to one of our seminars on your elevator pitch. While there, she learned about the Per Scholas programs and graduated a little while back, and is now pursuing a career change that is absolutely incredible. I had one woman who came to me at an event once and was like, “Oh my gosh! You work for Dress For Success Seattle? When I was 16, I was a single mom, they coached me through my first interviews. The outfit that I got for that interview was what I wore.” I forget what she said. She’s like, “16 years later, I’m their global head of something.” These are the reason that we do the work that we do, but you can see how varied they are, too.
One of my favorite success stories was a woman who came in, she was so excited. She even started it by saying to me, “Malia, I know that this is probably not going to be as exciting as you think it is. I know it’s probably not the definition of financial independence that you all are looking for. But I just want you to know that I was able to quit my job today. I now get to quit my job, and I get to go and I get to stay home with my kids.”
Tori Dunlap:
No, that is the financial success we’re talking about.
Malia Razzaia:
Right?
Tori Dunlap:
That is financial independence.
Malia Razzaia:
That’s what I said.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. People think it’s a Maserati or a billion dollars.
Malia Razzaia:
No!
Tori Dunlap:
It’s the ability to leave situations you don’t want to be in anymore and to put yourself into situations you want to be in.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s it.
Malia Razzaia:
To me, she might be my greatest success story. To me, the fact that she was able, with her husband, they were able to save enough and make the decisions that led to her ability to choose to stay at home with her family. That is true economic independence to me. I told her that. I was like, “No! Your story is as valuable as any other of success that we have in this organization.” Because we continually see that financial independence is about choice, it is about freedom, whatever those choices and those freedoms may be.
I’m just so incredibly proud of women as they stand in their power, as they claim their power. They say, “Society holds me to this mold, but I’m going to do it the way I want to do it.” And that we can be a small part of that process, it just brings me insurmountable amounts of joy.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you for being on the show. Thank you for your work. Tell me, really tell people listening, where they can find Dress For Success? Either to utilize the resources or to support the work that you all are doing.
Malia Razzaia:
Absolutely, yeah. Dress For Success, if you need to find an affiliate near you, you can go to dressforsuccess.org. There’s the ability to find affiliates all over the world. Then if you would like to find out more about Dress For Success Seattle or you are in the Washington area, please check us out at D-F-S, so Dress For Success, dfsseattle.org. We are always looking for folks to support programs, to volunteer. Obviously, I wouldn’t be the executive director if I didn’t say we’re always looking for financial support as well. A little bit goes a long way.
If you are a woman in this world and you are looking to grow your career, if you are looking to change your career, if you are looking to find financial stability, grow your retirement, I don’t care what it looks like, please reach out to the Dress For Success near you. Our doors are open. We are a community of women who simply want to see the success of other women. There’s no strings attached, there’s no hidden agenda. We just know that women are fucking bad asses and we are here to make sure that the world sees that.
Tori Dunlap:
I opened up a new tab and I’m donating, so that’s why I’m distracted.
Malia Razzaia:
Oh, I love it. I love it.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much for your work. I really appreciate it. Thank you for being here.
Malia Razzaia:
Thank you so much. I know you’re local, so I really appreciate everything that you have done for Washington and Seattle, and putting us on the map.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, right back at you. Oh my gosh.
Malia Razzaia:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you.
Thank you so much to Malia for joining us and for her incredible work. Dress For Success is a national organization, it might even be international, so you can find the local chapter to support or to get resources from them. Seattle’s though is seattle.dressforsuccess.org for more information. Thank you, Financial Feminists, as always for being here and your support of this show. We’ll talk to you very soon.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Researched by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video Engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Kurronen, Daryl Ann Ingram and Meghan Walker. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton. Photography by Sarah Wolfe. And theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound.
A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirsthundredk.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
