If you’ve ever stayed quiet, played small, or kept the peace just to avoid being judged—this conversation will set you free.
You know that little voice in your head that says, “What will they think?” The one that’s held you back from hitting publish, setting a boundary, or even just being yourself? Yeah, we’re done with that. In this episode, I sit down with the iconic Mel Robbins to talk about how to finally stop caring what other people think—and start living for yourself. This isn’t your typical self-help chat. It’s real, unfiltered, and hands down one of the most vulnerable conversations we’ve had on the show.
We’re not just talking about why it’s time to let go of other people’s opinions—we’re unpacking how to do it, especially when it’s your parents, your boss, or your internet trolls. Mel shares how she navigates criticism, the emotional toll of success, and why it’s not your job to manage other people’s feelings. If you’ve ever felt held back by fear of judgment, or struggled to show up as your full self—this episode will change the way you see your life, your relationships, and your ambition.
Key takeaways:
The real power of the “Let Them Theory” isn’t just detachment—it’s self-liberation.
Mel explains that letting people judge, misunderstand, or dislike you doesn’t mean you’re giving up or being passive—it means you’re choosing peace over performance. The second, often overlooked part of the theory is “let me”—the permission we give ourselves to be who we are without needing to be approved of, understood, or validated. Together, let them and let me form a framework for owning your truth while releasing control over others.
People question your decisions not because they’re right—but because your growth makes them feel out of control.
Whether you’re starting a business or breaking generational cycles, it threatens people’s sense of safety when you do something different. Mel encourages us to let people question us—but not let it make us question ourselves. The discomfort others feel is not your responsibility to fix.
Your job is not to manage other people’s emotions
Mel describes how, for years, she bent over backwards trying to keep everyone else okay—parents, kids, husband, coworkers—until it led to exhaustion and resentment. The “Let Them Theory” helped her reframe boundaries not as harsh lines, but as acts of compassion—for herself and others. She reminds us: “Letting them” be who they are allows us to reclaim control over how we choose to show up.
People’s reactions reveal their capacity—not your worth.
Mel introduces the “quarter cup vs. gallon” analogy: some people simply don’t have the emotional capacity to meet you where you are. It’s not about lowering your standards—it’s about adjusting your expectations and choosing peace over constant disappointment. “Let them” give what they can—and you decide how much access they have to your life.
Success doesn’t eliminate criticism—it amplifies it.
Mel opens up about the backlash she received when her podcast overtook Joe Rogan’s in the charts. Her lesson? Let them talk. The louder the noise, the more essential it is to stay anchored in your truth. Her advice: stop trying to be palatable and focus on being real.
Notable quotes
“Your silence can’t be misquoted.”
“Let them is not ‘fuck them.’ Let them is compassion. It’s acceptance. It’s peace.”
“The graveyard of your dreams is your Instagram drafts.”
“You can’t take control of your life until you stop trying to control everything and everyone around you.”
Episode-at-a-glance
≫ 02:37 The Impact of the Let Them Theory
≫ 06:28 Navigating Success and Public Scrutiny
≫ 10:36 The Role of Women in Society and Personal Empowerment
≫ 16:33 The Let Them Theory in Practice
≫ 20:56 Setting Boundaries and Personal Responsibility
≫ 24:34 Emotional Maturity and Handling Relationships
≫ 28:34 The Importance of Self-Compassion and Acceptance
≫ 39:55 Understanding Emotional Capacity in Relationships
≫ 42:16 Adapting Expectations for Healthier Relationships
≫ 46:37 Visibility and Communication in Relationships
≫ 49:26 Overcoming Fear of Judgment on Social Media
≫ 01:00:58 Embracing Ambition and Redefining Gender Roles
≫ 01:09:44 Applying the ‘Let Them’ Theory in Daily Life
Mel’s Links:
The Let Them Theory: https://www.melrobbins.com/book/the-let-them-theory/
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Meet Mel
Mel Robbins is an award-winning podcast host, NYT Best-selling author, and one of the most followed and sought after experts in mindset, behavior change, and life improvement.
Robbins award-winning The Mel Robbins Podcast, is one of the most successful podcasts in the world with over 185 million downloads and has been named one of the top followed podcasts globally. She has amassed 21 million followers across socials, with USA Today naming her “a force to be reckoned with.” TIME Magazine says she gives millions of listeners around the globe “a reason to believe in themselves.”
Robbins is also a NYT best-selling author with her work translated in almost 50 countries. Books include the multimillion-copy-selling The 5 Second Rule, The High 5 Habit, and seven #1-selling audiobook releases on Audible. Her upcoming book, The Let Them Theory (releasing 12/24/24), became an instant best seller on Amazon.
Robbins is also a self-publishing maverick and entrepreneur who has been at the forefront of innovation and disruption in the publishing industry and sits on the board of Amplify Publishing. 143 Studios Inc., her female-led media company, produces provocative and award-winning content with unprecedented results: millions of books sold, billions of video views, and original courses and professional development education for clients like Starbucks, Ulta Beauty, JP Morgan Chase, LinkedIn, Spotify, Headspace, and Audible. Notable accolades for Robbins include being a Forbes 50 Over 50 Honoree 2023; Apple Podcast Top Shared and Followed Shows of 2024 and 2023; USA Today Top 5 Mindset & Performance Coaches in the World, 2023; one of the fifty most influential influencers on The Hollywood Reporter’s Creator A-List in 2024 and more.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
This is Mel Robbins, like you’ve never heard her before, one of the most vulnerable, honest, and raw conversations we’ve had on this show. We’re talking about the let them theory of course, but we’re also talking about how to show up for yourself and stop caring what other people think, how to build better boundaries, and why it’s so important for women to show up for themselves. Let’s get into it.
Hi, financial Feminist, welcome back to the show. I’m thrilled to see you as always. My name is Tori. I’m a New York Times bestselling author. I host the number one money show for women in the world. You’re listening to it right now. And I’ve helped over 5 million women save money, pay off debt, start investing, start businesses, and feel financially confident. If you’re wondering where to get started, you can go to herfirst100k.com/quiz and we will send you a free personalized money plan for wherever you’re at in your financial journey.
You’ve heard of Mel Robbins. She has the number one book in the world right now, The Let Them Theory, and we’re so excited to have her on the show to have a conversation that truly she has not had anywhere else. Yes, we’re going to talk about the let them theory. We’re going to talk about her incredible work, but I threw away most of my questions and you know that the interview’s good when I didn’t even get to my planned questions until about 45 minutes into the conversation. Let’s talk about Mel. Mel Robbins is an award-winning podcast host, New York Times bestselling author and one of the most followed and sought-after experts and mindset, behavior change and life improvement. Robbins’ award-winning podcast, The Mel Robbins podcast is one of the most successful podcasts in the world with over 185 million downloads and has been named one of the most top-followed podcasts globally. She is also a New York Times bestselling author with her work translated in almost 50 countries. Her bestselling books include The 5 Second Rule, The High 5 Habit. Her book, The Let Them Theory became an instant bestseller on Amazon. I don’t think it’s left the top spot on Amazon sales. It is a number one New York Times bestseller, and it is one of the self-help books that Oprah calls her favorite. So this conversation is absolutely fantastic.
We are talking about everything let them, beyond that, again, I scrapped my questions for the first good chunk of this episode. I think this is the most vulnerable and honest I’ve ever seen Mel. She came into this conversation just so open and so raw, and if you feel like you know Mel Robbins, if you feel like you’ve heard everything she has to say, then you haven’t heard this episode. And I think let them has gone super viral. This concept of let people do and let people think what they’re going to think. But the second part of the let them theory is the part that is so impactful and really important, and we’re diving more into that today. This is the part that everybody seems to forget about, but the part where change actually happens. I loved this conversation with Mel. I was so honored to have her on Financial Feminist, and I hope you share this conversation with every single person in your life who needs to give less shits about what people think about them. So let’s get into the conversation. But first a word from our sponsors.
Mel Robbins:
You just ask me how am I doing.
Tori Dunlap:
Really doing. Yeah.
Mel Robbins:
It’s a weird moment at the age of 56 to realize that you are having an experience that is probably the peak moment of your career in life. And it is also very overwhelming to know that there is something way bigger than me that is happening, and I am part of what I would consider a response of the collective consciousness and positive forces rising up in the wake of so much negativity and division and lies and misinformation that is really harming people. And so to have this sense … And I only have it because I’ve done so much fucking work on myself, that I am finally able to be present and I’m also good with myself that I’m able to understand that there’s the job that I do, there’s the person that I am, and then there’s this much bigger thing that’s happening in the world and that whether you talk about the success of the Mel Robbins podcast or you talk about The Let Them Theory, I feel that I exist in a legacy of positive information and philosophy and spiritual teachings that have been around or risen up in moments in history where people needed to be reminded of what’s important in life. And they need to be reminded that no matter what’s happening in the world outside of you, that you have power through your attitude and your actions to improve things, even if it’s just slightly.
And this was the teaching and the takeaway from Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning. This is stoicism, this is Buddhism, this is radical acceptance. And so how am I really doing? I’m humbled. I feel this weird sense of mortality. I’m trying desperately to just be present. I miss so much of my life because of anxiety and the amount of problems I cause myself and other people that I really am just trying to be present every day, to wake up and to really remember and experience this as it’s happening because there’s a wave and an arc to this. I think that’s how I’m feeling. The other thing that’s very interesting, and I know you’ve experienced this because you are extraordinarily smart and you tell the truth. It’s very interesting to see how we’ve gotten to a place in the world where everybody is so stressed out that you have to have a villain, that you got to tear somebody down.
I’ve been one of the top ranked podcasts in the world since we started, which is astonishing to me. But the second we hit number one and unseated Joe Rogan and stayed there for the entire month of January, it’s like I could not believe the lies, the misinformation, the allegations, the gossip, the stuff that was coming out of the woodworks. I’m like, what is going on? This is a self-help podcast. This is not some criminal trial. I don’t know how you feel about this, but I always find that when you put out a book called The Let Them Theory, life is going to give you reasons to say let them.
And as a woman, it is shocking to see the spite and the tear down. I’m just the kind of person that I feel like you don’t have to be against somebody else to be for someone else. It doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game of winners and losers. In my opinion there’s enough happiness and success and financial freedom to go around for everybody. I have a mix of feelings about everything, but mostly that’s all just noise. So let them, when you know the truth, you don’t need to respond to rumors. And so I’m trying not to pay attention to that nonsense because of course, if you look at it’s bigger than it is. It’s all just little mice chirping. But it’s definitely been a lot in good and bad ways.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m going to Mel Robbins you right back to interpret for me what you just said. One of the things that I find so interesting when I was in my early 20s … And I think everybody listening feels this way. I was so ambitious. I wanted the world. I knew I was capable. I wanted to go out and do things. And I remember thinking it wasn’t happening fast enough. I was working a job I hated, growing Her First 100K on the side as a side hustle. It wasn’t growing at the rate that I had planned for in the five-year life plan or 10-year whatever. And I remember thinking when I started finally getting the things I wanted, when the book deal came through and when the podcast hit number one on the business charts for us, I remember thinking, oh, if I got everything I wanted when I wanted it, I wouldn’t have been able to handle it.
And it sounds like for you, you’re going, you know what? I’m actually ready because I have worked through stuff. I’m in my 50s, I’m more mature, I’m wise now. And so all of the, I am okay dealing with that with all of the cool things that come because I’ve done all the work. But if I got it when I wanted it, I probably wouldn’t have been able to handle it. So it sounds like you’re ready. I guess no one’s ready for the onslaught of bullshit online, but you’re as ready as you could be.
Mel Robbins:
Yeah. I am. And thank you for saying that. I’ll also share with you, I’ve kind of army crawled just like you did through the muck and my own crap, mostly to get myself out of financial free fall and to build this business that you see now just one move at a time. And with no prior experience in any of the things that I’m doing now. I’m just like, I’m going to figure it out. I’m just going to keep on going. And I would often wonder … Because I’ve had moments of success. I would often wonder, here I am dominating on the corporate speaking circuit, speaking at these big corporate events, why is nobody writing about my business? I have a seven title production deal with Audible. Why is nobody writing about this?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh my God. I feel the same way sometimes. I’m like, if men had numbers that I have, oh my God, he would be everywhere. And that was my second point that I wrote down about the whole Joe Rogan thing. In my book I talk about how when a woman starts becoming uncontrollable, she starts having money, she starts getting power, she has agency, she is showing up for herself and others, people panic when they see that because it’s easy to go, oh, her stepping into herself, her showing just how powerful someone can be is either an opportunity or it’s a threat. And a lot of people who have not done the work on themselves just see it as a threat. And it’s easier to tear you down or to tear women down who are successful than it is to be like, “Hell fucking yeah. How can I use that as inspiration to get what I want?” So yeah. It all comes back to patriarchy for me at the end of the day. There’s so much that you and I do that we can accomplish that either doesn’t feel like enough to some people or it feels like a threat or it feels like we can’t celebrate this.
Mel Robbins:
Yeah. I definitely understand and have felt exactly what you’re saying. And there’s a couple of things I want to unpack with you about that. So the experience of feeling like when is somebody going to write about this? I’ve got this crazy publishing business that is breaking … When is somebody going to write about this? I just kept saying to myself, I trust that if I keep my head down and I stay focused on what I’m trying to do and all that I’m trying to do is use my life, the lessons learned, the mistakes that I make, the things that are going on in my family, to the extent my family is open to talking about it as a way to give people tools, empowerment, inspiration, access to world-round experts for free so that you might change your own life for the better. So that you have the encouragement that is needed in order to try some of the things that the experts recommend. Because if somebody listens to you and they are listening and they want to make their first a hundred thousand, or they want to be financially independent or they want to get out of debt, you are going to provide them the roadmap that will take them there.
But I’ve become convinced over the years that the single biggest thing that stands in somebody’s way is not the skills and the capacity to do it, it’s discouragement. It’s the feeling that it may have worked for you, but it’s never going to work for me. And so if my podcast and work does anything, all it’s doing is giving people the encouragement that they need in order to believe in a bigger possibility for themselves and in order to believe enough that they’re worth trying something different. And if I can do that, then I have potentially helped somebody turn their life in a new direction.
And so I’ve constantly said to myself, Mel, just keep focused on that because at some point, success comes down to just not quitting. And I’ve been wildly successful before this moment. I’m shocked at what I’ve accomplished. I am shocked at what I created. When you made your first a hundred thousand. Oh my God, by that point in my life, I was sleeping with multiple people, I had a massive alcohol problem. I was making $19,000 a year working as a public defender, and my parents were helping me with my rent. I was buried in credit card debt. Wow, you had your stuff together. And so I just keep saying to myself, it’s going to turn out. It’s going to turn out. And I’ll tell you time and time again, and that’s what this moment is about, I’m like, oh, this is why you never got PR. Because you were being held and you were being prepared for a moment that’s much bigger than the one that you’re in now.
And so the thing that I’m here to say to you because I saw you laughing as I was saying, why is writing about me, is that you are being prepared. And I will say this to you as you’re listening to both of us right now or watching us. You are being prepared for something in the future that you cannot see, but it is coming. And if you trust that this moment of your life and your career is giving you the lessons or it’s building the patience or it’s creating the emotional maturity in you so that when the bigger moment that’s more important hits, you’re ready and that’s what’s happening for you.
Tori Dunlap:
I have all these prepared questions, Mel, and I want to just throw them out the window. So I want to be very clear. I’ve had a lot of opportunities because I know that somebody’s listening is like, “She’s done Good Morning America how many times?” I’m like, it’s not that people aren’t listening, it is just sometimes that … And I know everybody, again, listening and watching has this feeling of like, I want people to see how much I care. And I think the interesting thing that happens when you do start getting success is that whether it is trolls on the internet, whether it’s your mother-in-law, someone comes out and tries to cut you down for size and tries to tell you that the thing you really care about is not worthy of your own time. And I think this is where we can talk about the let them theory, but when we do care and we know we have a passion and we know we have something to say or something to do in the world, whether that’s start a business, be the best mother or daughter or partner possible, and someone comes into our lives to challenge that, how do we handle that moment of setback?
Mel Robbins:
It’s a fantastic question and let’s widen this out because what happens in your life, and it’s going to happen over and over again, is that any time you have a dream or you want to make a change or you want to live your life in a way that doesn’t match someone else’s expectations, it is normal for a person to question what you’re doing. And the reason why is we all have this need to feel in control of our lives. It’s hardwired, it’s never going away. Just like you have the need to pursue your dreams and to make changes in your life and to go after your goals and unleash your ambition or just find more time for yourself as a working mom or even how dare you learn about finance and start investing? How dare you, right? How dare you become ambitious? So you have the need to do that because you need to be in control of your life because it’s what makes you feel safe and fulfilled. The problem is that in human relationships, if your behavior worries me, Tori, and all of a sudden you’re starting to do something that I’m like, “Wait a minute, she wasn’t supposed to be an entrepreneur. Wait a minute. She’s starting a business online and becoming an influencer. I don’t like influencer. Wait a minute. Why is she talking about the stock market?”
When your behavior all of a sudden makes me worried or it doesn’t match what I think you should be doing your behavior now makes me feel out of control. And what human beings don’t understand … I did not understand this for the first 54 years. Is we then make a mistake. We cross a line, and in order for me to feel better, in order for me to feel in control, I now have to question you. I got to tell you what to do. I got to control you, and now I’ve bumped up against your need to control. And so step number one is understand any change you make, it is actually normal for people that know you in particular to question you. And the thing that you need to make sure you don’t do is let them question you, but don’t you dare question yourself. And that’s the let me part recognize that when somebody has concerns or doesn’t understand or they’re questioning or they’re judgy or whatever, that is normal. But you’ve got to learn how to let them. Give them the space to have the questions. Because for example, a lot of women that want to start their own business, they have parents that had jobs. They don’t understand that. Of course. It’s your story
Tori Dunlap:
I told this story. My parents chose the stable option, and I’m so thankful for it because it gave me a really stable, healthy childhood. But it was like, I literally called them 2019 and I was like, “I think it’s time for me to quit my job.” And they literally said, “You need to do anything you possibly can to keep your job. You need the health insurance, you need the stability, you need the stable paycheck.” And now I call them tongue in cheek sometimes I’m like, “Wow. Aren’t you glad I didn’t listen to you?” But it’s that moment where you’re exactly right. It’s thinking … My parents are trying to do the right thing. I’m putting that in quotes, do the right thing for me. Their job as a parent is to keep me safe. The safe option would’ve been the paycheck every two weeks. That would’ve been the safe option, but it wouldn’t have been the better option. It would’ve been the safe option.
Mel Robbins:
Right. Right. Correct. And what I love about this story is you can widen the story out to anything. Let’s say that you’re in a relationship and you decide you’re going to start to get healthy. You’re going to learn how to lift weights. You’re going to go to the gym three days a week or join CrossFit or whatever it may be. If you’re in a relationship with somebody who doesn’t exercise, the second that you start to go in a different direction, it’s going to be really threatening to them. And so they might be supportive in the beginning, but as you continue moving in a new direction, it threatens their sense of safety. And so they’re going to question you. Let them. They’re allowed to question you. Your parents are allowed to be worried about you. That’s a good thing. The issue that I always had is I would take somebody’s questions or judgments or worry, and then I would turn it back on myself and I would start to question myself.
And now instead of stepping out and launching a business, you’re in resistance with your parents because you think that your life is about making them happy. You think your job is to make sure they’re okay with every decision. That’s not what happens when you’re an adult. Being an adult means you take responsibility for your life, which if you look at responsibility, it’s the ability to respond, the ability to respond to your parents’ disappointment. Let them be disappointed. They’re grown adults. They can handle feeling those things and you’re not their parent. So let them experience the emotion and let me … That’s the second part. Focus on making decisions that make me proud of myself, even when other people misunderstand them or they question them. Because what ultimately ends up happening is that your parents have probably done this too, that if you just focus on living your life in a way that makes you proud and you show up as a good person, that’s the let me part, a couple years from now, you know what your parents are doing, they’re bragging about what you’ve done. They’re not worried anymore. You’ve given them the space to be worried and then you’ve put your time and energy instead of managing your parents into building what you want to build and then everybody’s super proud because you’ve proven to everybody what it looks like to take control of your life.
So I love the let them theory because what it changed for me is I was so emotional and reactive and I thought everybody’s happiness was my responsibility. I thought that I had to make sure my parents were okay and my kids were okay, and my husband was okay, and I was constantly bending over backwards to just make sure everything’s taken care of, which is why I was a resentful bitch because I was exhausted at the end of the day taking care of everybody else. Who did that to me? I did. And so when I started to play around with let them, and then eventually the let me part, I realized this … What people get wrong about let them is, let them is not fuck them. That’s not what this is. Let them is actually about compassion. Let them is about acceptance. When you say let them, what you’re doing is you’re recognizing that adults can be adults, that people are who they are, and it’s not your job to parent them. People are allowed to do things without you. They’re allowed to misunderstand you. They’re allowed to form their own opinions. Let them.
And what happens when you learn how to see people as they are is you create this space where two things can be true. This person can be this way, and I can separate myself and see it clearly, and I can be who I am and choose how I interact with this person. And it has helped me so much, especially in this divisive time to hold space for people with different opinions. It has helped me to hold space for the judgments of others, and it has helped me hold space around … Like everybody else, I’ve got people in my life that have very challenging personalities, that have narcissistic personality styles. Everybody has somebody like this because it is basically the result of their childhood trauma and emotional neglect. And most of us, we realize we’re dealing with somebody in our families or in our life that has a narcissistic personality style. We’re not going to ghost them or ax them out, we have to deal with them.
And so what’s happened for me is that by saying, let them, I’m not saying let this narcissistic person abuse me. I’m saying let them be who they are, because that forces me to stop hoping they’re going to change. It forces me to accept them as they are. It forces me to have to look at the behavior and stop expecting them to be different. And then I have to say, let me remind myself, I’m responsible for my boundaries. I’m responsible for how much time and energy I put into this person. I’m responsible for what I need to change because if I’m going to have this person in my life, then I’ve got to operate differently because they’re not changing. You can’t change another person.
And I think what had happened to me for a very long time, particularly with people with very challenging behaviors, whether it’s in business or on teams or in my family, is I constantly wish they would change. Why is it that I’m around you and for the first two days, it’s fine, and for the third day it’s a nightmare and I’m walking on eggshells. Why is this so difficult? I’m going to bend over … No. I’m going to see this coming and I’m going to let them and I’m going to let them have their tantrum because I know that they always do, and I’m going to let them huff and puff because I know they always do. And then I’m going to let me not buy into it because I’m now accepting this and creating space between this person and me and recognizing it’s not my job to change this person. It’s my job to change me.
And I got to tell you, it has helped put so much in business too, because in business, you can get too focused on what you think the other person wants, that you actually out negotiate yourself versus letting people play the game, letting people low ball you, letting people change the terms of the deal or try to.
Tori Dunlap:
Waste your time.
Mel Robbins:
Waste your time. Let them. Let me say no to this. I don’t need to get all emotional about what’s happening because I know what I want my pay to be or my deal terms to be or whatever. So stop focusing on what the other person is doing and getting all worked up about it. Let them be who they are. They’re revealing something important to you.
I was just on a call last night for a potential role in a company that’s doing dynamite that would be a big partnership. And we have this huge pie in the sky conversation that was just absolutely fabulous. And it was about big things, equity and the potential of something. Throughout the call the person kept pushing me to do some stuff on social media right away. And the first time they said it, I just responded and I was like, “Well, I don’t really consider myself an affiliate marketer or an influencer. If you can’t understand the size of the platform and the actual conversation we’re having, that’s a problem.” And then they kept bringing it up and kept bringing it up. And I felt myself getting annoyed. And I was like, “Hold on, Mel. Let them. Because they’re revealing to you something very important about what they actually value, and they’re revealing to you what they would be like as a partner. And this is extraordinarily important data that you’re going to miss if you allow yourself to get all worked up.”
Tori Dunlap:
I had no doubt this would happen, but Mel really came and swinging. When we come back from this word from our sponsors, we’re talking more about The Let Them Theory, especially the let me part when it comes to sending boundaries with the people we love in our lives. Stay tuned. The thing that I realized about The Let Them Theory, which I was doing before I realized the words, let them-
Mel Robbins:
Oh, I love it. So what was your version? Because this is not a new idea. This has been around since a history of time, but what’s your version of it that you used to do?
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know what was going on in my brain. I won’t tell you the full story. I’m happy to tell you off mic because I will tell it in the memoir someday. My parents and I have had a really tenuous relationship about my company, about my business, and there have been multiple stretches of time where we have not spoken because they have not approved of what I do. As an only child, especially-
Mel Robbins:
Is it because of political stuff?
Tori Dunlap:
It’s political stuff. I have a lot of opinions and I am quick to share them online. And I think for them, again, the safety-
Mel Robbins:
Oh, and let me guess, they get blow back because of it. Is that why?
Tori Dunlap:
Not even that. I think they think that, well, somebody’s going to come after her. Somebody’s going to come after her. Her safety’s threatened. They don’t curse. I’ve never heard them curse in my entire life. My forward in my book, my dedication in my book is to mom and dad. Sorry about the curse words. And that’s a joke, but not really. It’s been the most difficult thing I’ve ever had to do in my life is keep making myself proud even if I wasn’t making them proud. And that has been extremely difficult, and especially when I was 24, 25, 26, I wanted their approval so badly. I’m an only child. They are my parents. They live an hour away. It was very difficult for me. And I just kept saying, you know what? If I go to bed at night … And we just talked to Martha Beck and we were discussing this as well. If I go to bed, the head hits the pillow and I am making someone else comfortable at the expense of my own comfort, that’s not a life worth living.
And I think that is the default state of women is we make everybody else comfortable over ourselves. We do things that even in the moment we’re like, I don’t want to do this, this feels weird, or this feels gross, or this doesn’t feel genuine, but they’re going to be mad if I don’t, or I’m going to have to have a hard conversation if I don’t. And I just got to a point where I was like, this is what I’m doing. And it would lead to us not speaking or really, really hard … Just some of the conversations we had to have were so hurtful for me. And I’m sure they were hurt by … It was a lot of stuff for many years. And in January of this year and last year randomly I got invited last year out to New York to tour the NASDAQ and the New York Stock Exchange. And then I actually rung the bell this year at the NASDAQ opening bell.
Mel Robbins:
Wow.
Tori Dunlap:
Which was incredible. I flew my dad out. I flew my COO Karina out, and then 40 of our community members, Her First 100K and we invited and it was just such a cool moment. And you’re exactly right. I don’t think I will ever get their entire approval. There are certain things I still do that they don’t like. But I do think they get it now. And they hadn’t gotten it before. They hadn’t gotten the impact, they hadn’t gotten that we have impacted five million women and helped them be better with money. That is my life’s work. And I think they hadn’t fully understood. So we went years. And back to my original point, what I realized over and over and over again is I think the first let them is pretty easy. It’s hard, but it’s like, oh, let them, let them and then let me. But I had to do it over and over and over. I did it for years and have to continue doing it. And I think if we can about that for a little bit.
Mel Robbins:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Again, you discover Mel, I discover let them, I’ve got the book right here on my desk and it’s like, oh, epiphany. Great. I’ll let them and then let me. What happens when you have to do this as a practice?
Mel Robbins:
You do have to do it as a practice. There is nothing about this that’s a one-off. And what goes viral is the easy part. And everybody loves saying let them, because it’s very judgy. Let them go out without me, let my parents take this.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. It’s like a little bit of high horse moment. It’s like, “Oh, well fuck them, let them.”
Mel Robbins:
And I need a high horse moment when I’m feeling really hurt. When I’m feeling low, I need the high horse to lift me up. And that’s why it works, because that boost of superiority really helps when you feel defeated or hurt or in your case unseen and unsupported. And that boosts you for a minute but then after you say it, there’s this hollowness. And so then you go to the let me part, and this is about values. So the let me part is really pointing back to you that even though this sucks, there are still things that I have power over and I need to remind myself, I get to think what I want to think about this situation with my parents. I get to do or not do what I want to do in this moment. And I get to choose how I’m going to respond to the very valid feelings of being hurt and frustrated and unloved and pissed off and traumatized by this disconnect with them. And as women, I agree. We end up going upstairs in our heads and explaining away all kinds of behavior in those moments. And I did it for years too.
And I think it is also though something to acknowledge in your self if you are trying to be connected to somebody who is not able to provide you with what you need and deserve, and you are still such a good and empathetic person that you’re willing to wrestle around with the questions of how do I change this? I’d like to be connected with them. What is their experience versus my experience? And so this is where the let me part gets very difficult as you’re explaining in your story because it’s about your values, it’s about how much energy you have for this right now, it’s about boundaries and it’s about being honest with yourself about when something is enough and when you’re still willing to take a step towards somebody.
And it’s never about justifying somebody else’s neglect or abuse ever. And what the let them theory has helped me do because it is a practice of recognizing every day, okay, that was a comment that was hurtful. When you say let them, they’ve already said the comment. So when you’re saying let them, it’s just a reminder to be like, I’m not going to spend any time and energy controlling that human being. I’m going to assess how do I want to respond? And sometimes no response. Your silence can’t be misquoted. Sometimes the response is, this person does not have access to me for a year because I’m not dealing with this anymore, and I recognize-
Tori Dunlap:
Or I’m going to walk away from every conversation. That that’s what my response was when they would bring it up, I’d go, “I’m not going to have this conversation.” And then they would keep pushing and I go, “I am not interested in having this conversation, and if you keep talking, I’m going to have to hang up the phone.” That was the boundary I set. And again, let them keep talking. I don’t have any control over that. But then if they keep talking, I have very clearly said what my response is going to be. So if you keep talking, I’m going to go, “You know what? I’ll talk to you later.” And hang up the phone.
Mel Robbins:
Yes. Perfect. And who hates that? An emotionally immature adult.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Mel Robbins:
Because an emotionally immature adult does not have boundaries with themselves. A person with a narcissistic personality style is incapable of actually stepping into your shoes and considering how you might feel.
Tori Dunlap:
Or someone who just doesn’t have the tools. They don’t have the tools, the emotional tools. I think narcissism gets thrown out a lot. I think there are some narcissistic people, most definitely. But I think most people just don’t have the tools in their tool belt to understand, oh, they’re saying something that I have an emotional response to, and then they get all anxious in their heads about it. Yeah.
Mel Robbins:
A hundred percent. I a thousand percent agree with you because learning how to regulate your emotions and not vomit on other people-
Tori Dunlap:
So hard.
Mel Robbins:
It took me until I learned these tools. I’ve always wanted to be calmer. I’ve always wanted to not take my stress out on my family. I’ve wanted to not be triggered by everything because of past trauma. I haven’t wanted to be a control freak. Who doesn’t want to be more stoic? But I’ve never been able to access those philosophies and principles and spiritual practices and therapeutic modalities in a moment where I’m already stressed out or triggered. And so it’s a skill to learn to do this. And what you’re talking about … And this is something that I want to offer to you, although I’m certain you probably know this. But in case the person who is watching this or who has chosen to listen to this and you’re here with us right now, this is a visual that helped me profoundly in terms of setting boundaries with people in my life and in my family in particular, and the people that I love the most where there’s this constant mismatch. And I love the word mismatch. And I don’t know if it was Dr. Nicole LePera, who uses that word, but it’s this idea that with a lot of people in your life, there can be this mismatch between what you actually need emotionally and what you need in terms of how you communicate and what they are capable of giving.
And there’s this incredible conversation that I believe … I’ve got to look this up because I keep referring to it, and I’m not sure if it’s Pastor TD Jakes and Oprah Winfrey. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this, but it’s a beautiful metaphor. He was talking to her. I believe it was her. About how there are people in life that have a quarter cup capacity for support, love, verbal affirmation. That’s what they have because of their life experience, because of their past history, because of what they got when they were a kid. It’s not good, it’s not bad.
Tori Dunlap:
Their capacity.
Mel Robbins:
It just is what is. That’s their capacity. You may be somebody that has a gallon. And what happens when you have someone in your life that has a quarter cup and you are a gallon person, is that the person who has a quarter cup to give can give everything that they have to give and to somebody like you or me, it feels like a drop in the bucket because it is. But for them, they gave us everything. And there becomes this disconnect. And this has happened to me because you both feel misunderstood. The person that has a quarter cup feels resentful and sad and unseen because they think they gave you everything and now you’re ungrateful or you’re asking for more, or to your point, they don’t even know how because they don’t have the skills. And then we are feeling completely unseen and disrespected and we don’t recognize the full weight of what was given because it’s not at all satiating the actual need.
And I think that with parents and children in particular … Because now we have a 26-year-old, a 24-year-old and a 19-year-old, each one of them is different. And it is really interesting to have these tools in my life now and realize I have been a mismatch for each one of my three kids at various times in their life based on my lack of skills or my lack of capacity and what they actually needed for that moment in their life. And I can own. But to own it takes a level of maturity. And so what’s helped me in these situations of knowing that I’m dealing with somebody that doesn’t have skills, I’m dealing with somebody that’s emotionally immature.
First of all, you always get to choose who’s in your life or not. I don’t care if they conceived you, if they carried you, if they took care of you. That is not a license for somebody to abuse you. You get to choose who’s in your life when you’re an adult. That said, a lot of us choose to want to keep people in our lives even when they’re challenging because one of our core values is family or our core values is compassion, or our core value is caregiving or our core value is love. And so when you choose to keep somebody in your life and they’re going to have access to you, for me, learning how to let them be who they are with their quarter cup and recognizing that I can’t make this person build the skills to expand, all I can do is learn how to have them in my life and actually be grateful for the quarter cup and not expect a drop more. I got to tell you, in the last two years, it is shocking how the relationships have changed because I’ve changed and my energy has shifted and my expectations have shifted, and my emotions around it and hurt around it is so dialed down that I can just see it so clearly.
And it was compassion that created that boundary for me, not judgment. And that is how this has helped so much, and it makes you feel more peaceful and more in control of your boundaries. Does that make sense?
Tori Dunlap:
It makes total sense. After the break, we are talking about the classic, if they wanted to, they would, which I have problems with and how it’s not always the best way to evaluate how someone actually feels about you. And we’re also talking about how to get past the anxiety of showing up or following your dreams and passions. Stay tuned. Mel, do you know if they wanted to, they would. Have you heard about that?
Mel Robbins:
I have. And I have said that, and I would make a correction to it at this point.
Tori Dunlap:
So that’s what I was about to bring up is social media, especially TikTok, especially in romantic relationships, it’s like, oh, well, if you wanted to, we would. And I have realized over the past couple years, sometimes they want to and they can’t. Sometimes they want to and they don’t have the capacity to. It doesn’t mean they don’t want to, but again, it’s almost let them, let me. It doesn’t mean that they don’t want it very deeply, but you get to decide is that enough or is it not?
Mel Robbins:
Yeah. There’s an incredible psychologist that is all throughout the book. His name is Stuart Ablon. And I cannot believe how much he’s changed the way that I think about human behavior. He has been practicing at Mass General Brigham, the number one research hospital in the world. He’s a professor at Harvard Medical School. His specialty is being a psychologist, working with kids who exhibit challenging behavior. And his whole philosophy is exactly what you’ve said. It’s that when people exhibit challenging behavior, it’s not an issue of will. It’s an issue of skills. Skills are missing, whether it’s emotional maturity or the ability to communicate what you need or processing skills or language skills or all kinds of things that people can struggle with. And it was very striking to me to hear him say that because when it comes to other people changing, it is true that people only change when they want to. But if you unpack the word want, there are two aspects to that. People want to change when they think it’s going to work. You know what I’m saying? And so there’s a piece of discouragement that is often present, and people also want to change when they know what to do to change. And there’s a lot of people who don’t even know what to do.
And so when you have, I don’t know what to do because I don’t have the skills, plus I’m discouraged that it’s not going to work, that shows up as they don’t want to change. And so I have absolutely learned and changed my opinion about it. And the way that I think about it now is that people only change when they’re ready to do the work to change. That’s when it happens. And in terms of where you’re priority, if people wanted to they would, that’s a very important thing to understand in dating. That’s a very important thing to understand when it comes to trying to assess where you stand with somebody. Because I think the only relationships that are the ones that are very confusing is where you’re confusing yourself. Because people’s behavior is pretty black and white. If somebody wants to talk to you, they will reach out. If not, they’re probably busy doing other things. If a friend is excited to see you, they’ll text you. If not, they’re just busy doing other things. But if you start to try to interpret what other people’s behavior is, you’re going to get into dangerous territory because you’re either going to make assumptions about what they’re doing or you’re going to make assumptions about the potential of something instead of just looking very clearly at somebody’s behavior as the truth.
And if you’re constantly making an effort and the second that you stop calling your sister or you stop calling your friend, or you stop making the effort at work, if it’s not reciprocated, that tells you something and it can tell you a number of things. Number one, it can tell you that you’re not a priority. That’s one thing it could tell you. Second thing it could tell you is this person has a lot going on. And to your point, maybe I should give people more credit that they don’t have to be on demand for me. Maybe they just have a lot going on right now, and maybe the fact that I reach out is actually one thing that’s keeping them afloat.
Another thing it could tell you is, oh, I have a lot of introverted people in my life. That’s interesting. I have a lot of people that are just don’t like to make small talk or go out on Friday nights. That’s a cool thing that I have people that are very creative and introverted in my life. Fourth thing I could tell you, oh, one of my genius powers is that I actually am good at organizing people. So instead of expecting everything to be transactional, what if I just leaned into a core value that I love creating experience. I love reaching out. I love being connected. And so I’m just going to keep on doing that without expectation that somebody needs to do it in return because it’s a core value of mine. And that then again, what I love about it is that it creates more compassion. It allows you to look at situations not as if it’s always personal. And it also allows you to double down on what you want to create in your life and what your values are. And that is what puts you in the seat of control and power. And that’s why this is so helpful as a tool.
Tori Dunlap:
I think the control thing is a huge part of our hesitancy or our frustration in our relationships. And of course, let them, let me helps solve most of that. I think the other part that I love that you talk about in the book, and it’s the first story you really tell is, I was scared to post on social media because I was scared of what my friends were going to think when I talked about my business, or I talked about my dreams and I talked about my goals. Did you see Timothée Chalamet’s speech at the SAG awards? Did you see this?
Mel Robbins:
No.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. I’m going to give you a quick rundown. He’s my everything, by the way. He’s my celebrity crush.
Mel Robbins:
He’s amazing. Oh my god. I know Dune.
Tori Dunlap:
I literally have a devotional candle somewhere with a cardboard cut out everything. Okay.
Mel Robbins:
Do you really?
Tori Dunlap:
I literally do. Mel-
Mel Robbins:
I need to see. I love her. You’re so good. Oh my God, woman, I love you.
Tori Dunlap:
So he gave this great speech. I thought it was fantastic. And so he won the SAG award for the Bob Dylan role, and he comes up and he’s like, “I want to be one of the greats. This award does not signify that I’m great yet, but like Viola Davis and Michael Jordan, I am in pursuit of greatness.” And the response to this speech was so ugly. It was like-
Mel Robbins:
What?
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Now, there was the secondary response, which was like, ambition is cool now, everything. But the initial response from a lot of people was, it’s gross. Ambition was gross or wanting to be great was gross. “Who does he think he is? This is so ridiculous.” And then the counter response to that was like, “I don’t see what the fuss is. He’s not calling himself great. He says he’s in pursuit of greatness.” But I think that that is the manifestation of what everybody’s scared of is if I show up on social media and I go, I want to start a business, or I want to actually make more money, or I want to be great that someone … And God forbid, somebody we care deeply about is then going to come in and go, “Who the fuck do you think you are?” So talk to me about that.
Mel Robbins:
I will. And I just want to validate something. Why wouldn’t you want to be great? Why wouldn’t you want to learn how to make more money online when you see every other influencer doing it, why wouldn’t you?
Tori Dunlap:
That was my thought. Why wouldn’t you want to live a big audacious life and to be the best you can at the thing he’s chosen, which is acting? He wants to be the best he can be at that. Why wouldn’t you want that?
Mel Robbins:
But I mean that to the person listening. As you scroll on social media and you see all these people making all this money, why wouldn’t you want to learn how to do that?
Tori Dunlap:
Why wouldn’t you want to learn how to invest to protect your retirement?
Mel Robbins:
Yeah. Learn how to invest. Why wouldn’t you want to be smart with your money? If you’re trying to grow your real estate business, use one of the most important platforms out there to do it. Why would you rob yourself of the opportunities that your life has for you? And one of the ways that we do that to ourselves … And I’m not saying there aren’t very real obstacles in people’s way. But one of the ones that’s within your control is how you censor yourself online. And if you simply just think about that moment where you pull up your favorite platform, and for me it’s Instagram. And let’s just say that you’re going to do a video about money, or you’re going to do a video about your real estate business, or you’re going to do a video about the new online course you’re selling, or you’re going to do a video about what you’ve learned being part of the community of the first a hundred thousand. So you’re going to do this video about this thing that fires you up. You make the video, and then what do you do? You go to post it and you’re like, “Is that the right frame on the front?” And then you go to write the thing and you’re like, “Caps, no caps delete. How about a few emojis? Oh, is this too much too?”
Tori Dunlap:
Maybe it’s stupid.
Mel Robbins:
Yeah. Is caps stupid? And then you go to hit post and you hit draft. If you looked in your drafts, you probably have hundreds of posts of yourself in certain outfits or videos you’ve shot, that is the the graveyard of your dreams.
Tori Dunlap:
Or maybe didn’t get that far. They’re all just in your brain. Maybe they’re not even in the Instagram draft folder. Maybe they’re just … This was me. I was like, “Oh, I’m going to start a blog,” and I talked about it for years, and then I finally sat down one day and just did it. But it’s so scary.
Mel Robbins:
Well, here’s what I’m going to tell you, Tori, because I just hung up with my daughter and she won’t mind me sharing. She’s a singer-songwriter. All she wants to do is have a career where she makes it. And by making it means that people are inspired by her business and she can actually make money doing it, which is a very hard thing to do these days. And she knows that Instagram and TikTok are the new Spotify. She knows that she needs to be really starting that flywheel of putting her music there and singing online and all of it. It is two years of her knowing this, and she is just torturing herself and she’s in the middle of the soup. And here’s the thing about it. Nobody can make you do it. And there’s a certain level of frustration and bullshit that you have to go through with yourself so that there is enough frustration and pain inside of you to actually cut through the bullshit and make you sit down and say fuck this. I’m going to put a song up of me sitting here singing this cover. I don’t give a fuck what my sorority sisters think. And by the way, they’re probably going to be the ones cheering you on. And if they aren’t, let them. And that brings me to the point of how we stop ourselves.
The reason why you edit yourself and you censor yourself is because you care more about what people think than you care about what you think of what you’re doing. And the other reason why you do this is because you live your life … I used to too. Believing that there is something that you can do correctly that will guarantee that people will think something. And I got news for you. It is physically impossible for you to climb up inside somebody else’s head and control what one of the 70,000 thoughts a person has a day is going to be. It’s impossible. And therefore, any waste of your time and energy, bending yourself in two, trying to figure out what the right thing to post is so that you’re guaranteed that will like it is a joke.
Instead, I have a radical idea. Let them think something negative because that’s what you’re afraid of. Let them unfollow you. That’s what you’re afraid of. Let them roll their eyes and gossip and misunderstand you. That’s what you’re afraid of. Let them. Call out the thing you’re afraid of. Give people permission to have their own experience and to have their own opinions. And then let me. Let me stop censoring myself. Let me get through my bullshit and post this stuff. Let me take responsibility for building the business or showing up online. Shit, put a photo of yourself in your bathing suit instead of standing in the back of the crowd. And so my kids constantly will say to me, “Mom, my God, why’d you put that photo? You look hideous.” I’m like, “I went to the grocery store looking like that. Why wouldn’t I put that on social media? Who the fuck am I trying to impress?”
Tori Dunlap:
And when I look back at my life, do I want to have potentially been cringe or embarrassing if it meant doing something that felt good to me? I just did a solo trip to Mexico and first of all, solo travel, you constantly can be going, “Someone’s looking at me. Someone’s wondering why I’m here alone. Somebody thinks I’m lonely, somebody thinks I’m sad.” I got over that a long time ago. But the interesting thing is that every time I did say to somebody like, “Oh yeah, I’m here by myself.”, they all went, “Wow. I wish I could do that.” Or, “Wow. Good for you.” And I’m like, “It’s not that brave, first of all, but appreciate it.”
But the actual story I was going to tell is I was at dinner the last night, and there was this couple … There was all these couples at this really romantic dinner and there was music and whatever. And this couple stood up and just started slow dancing. I just started crying. I took a little video of them. I ended up going up after, and I was like, “I could send this to you.” But they were celebrating their anniversary. No one else was dancing. It was in a restaurant, so it looked weird. But who the fuck cares? It was the most beautiful moment of we’re here in Mexico, they’re probably in their mid 60s, maybe 70s. They just got up and started dancing. It’s like, that’s the life I want to live. I want to do this. This feels good to me. Will this be a little embarrassing? Possibly. But it’s because if it feels embarrassing, it’s because I care. Exactly. I care about what somebody else thinks over what I actually want to do.
When we come back from this word with our sponsors, we’re wrapping up our time with Mel and there’s still so much she’s got to share, including how to actually put the let them/let me theory into practice. Thank you for supporting our sponsors who allow us to do this show for free. Stay tuned.
Mel Robbins:
It’s so sad I wasted half of my life living like that. And there’s such an easier way. The reason why I think this has also taken off is there’s a very simple thing that I’m about to explain that once you hear it, you’re like, oh my God. It’s so true. You can’t be sober until you stop drinking. And you cannot take control of your own life until you stop trying to control everything and everyone around you. And the step of no longer giving power to other people’s opinions and their emotions and their expectations and their moods is the step that none of us have truly highlighted was a thing we needed to do. And I had no idea how I literally had life reversed. I navigated my life based on people’s moods or their expectations or their happiness or their needs or what I thought that they wanted to do or trying to manage what they think. And there’s such an easier way to do this, which is to flip it and let people be responsible for themselves and let them be who they are and then let me focus on myself and choose how to spend my time and energy.
And when you stop managing everybody else and you stop torturing yourself trying to manage everybody’s opinions and disappointments, you realize you actually have a lot more time and energy that you can use to focus on the things that you’ve been wanting to do but have been holding yourself back from doing. And that’s the thing that has really changed stuff. And there’s one other topic I wanted to go back to because I think it’s really important, and that’s the topic of ambition. So one of the things that happened for me is that I always just had the opinion that my partner, my husband and I, that we would both work, that we would both contribute. But I had in the back of my mind that stereotypical patriarchal gender story that, okay, well he’s the one that’s going to make the money and my money is going to be my money to play around with and for all the extras. He’s the cake, I’m the icing. And what happened in our life is that there were times where we were even Steven, there were times where he was ahead, then he became an entrepreneur and went into the restaurant business. And when the business started failing and we found ourselves in financial free fall, something interesting happened. First of all, I was furious.
I blamed him for everything. And we fell into this trap or I will own that I fell into the trap as a woman of thinking that somehow he’s responsible for providing, he’s responsible for giving me what I want. And I had a lot of rage around it and a lot of blame around it. And then something interesting happened. Right around when we were literally about to go through bankruptcy and I had lost my job and we’re $800,000 in debt and I can barely get out of bed, I had this epiphany. It’s not his job. If I want to get out of debt, it’s mine. Of course, we’re in a relationship, of course, we’re in a marriage, of course, we’re in a partnership and we’re going to work it out together. But it’s not fair that I’m saddling him with my ambition. It’s not fair that I’m looking at him as the only person who can get us out of this, and now I’m going to be pissed that he’s not. And there was this incredible thing that happened. First, I was mad because I’m working three jobs, he’s left the business. He’s getting sober and dealing with the shame of feeling like he failed as a father and as a husband and lost our money and other people’s money. So he’s in a world of hurt. I’m like, I got to save this house. I got to pay these bills.
And in really just taking responsibility for the joint mess that we were in. Something interesting happened both in our relationship, it happened for our children. It happened for me. I realized that my ambition was mine. I realized that I loved building things. I loved making money. I loved the game of business. That was never my husband. My husband’s a death doula for crying out loud now. He’s a spiritual psychologist. He leads men’s retreats. He does holotropic breath work sessions. He’s the exact opposite of me for crying. He has ambition when it comes to serving others. The man could live in a yurt for crying out loud. And so I was pressuring him to be somebody who he wasn’t at his core over money because of gender roles. When the truth was I was the person who actually had the ambition. And when I started to own it, something wild happened. Number one, our kids got this incredible gift because they got to see a couple abandon what society says is a man’s job versus a woman’s job. They also got to see two people work through the seesaw of who’s making more, who’s not, who’s making nothing. And to recognize that the job of being the primary parent is the important job, just like so is going out there and doing what you can do to build a business.
And the other thing that happened that was incredible … Because I wouldn’t be where I am today without Chris. Because when my business started to take off in 2015 and I was having to travel a lot to give speeches, we were still $800,000 in debt. We still had no savings. We were just making the ends meet, but I wouldn’t have been able to be out there if he wasn’t home full time. And so my kids had this incredible experience where they got to have their dad home while they watched their mom go out and build something. And it has been this incredible thing, especially to two daughters, that if you want something in life, you have the ability to go get it. Do not look at your partner as the person who is your meal ticket. Look at yourself as being capable of building something. And build a partnership with somebody so that through the ups and downs of life, you can pass the baton back and forth and do your part in supporting one another in what you do.
But really being honest with yourself about what is my ambition? What is it that I want to do? Do I want to be ambitious in the way that I’m a parent? Do I want to be ambitious the way that Chris was in volunteering at hospice and getting a certificate to become a death doula so I can sit with people near the end of their lives? Those are all forms of ambition, but it’s really important. It took me a long time to truly embrace and define what ambition looks like for me. When I look ahead, I say to myself, okay, I have absolutely reached, I think probably the pinnacle of where I’m going to be. I hit number one. I’m fine with dropping back down. Somebody else can have the spot. You know what I’m saying? I get it. It’s amazing. As long as it’s making an impact … I want to do less.
Ambition for me is how do … Because I’ve always been, and I think women do this too, especially if you’ve had a bit of anxiety in your life or you’ve been an over-functioning, hyper-vigilant person looking around corners. I was so much about the what’s next? What’s next? More bigger, bigger, bigger. What do we got to do next? Oh, so-and-so is doing this, we got to do this. That now I’m like, wait a minute. Ambition would actually look like just doing the podcast and really focusing on the let them theory and slowing that down, saying no to everything else and really being ambitious about what excellence in artistry looks like. And having more time and space to enjoy my husband and my family and to see my friends more and to get outside and hike. That to me is my new ambition, is how I break the habit of more, more bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. That craziness that we can get ourselves really into.
Because I think some of the things that you teach, it’s not about the craziness and the bigness, it’s about the discipline. It’s about the focus. It’s about the small moves that you make consistently the compound over time. And so I just wanted to talk about that because I think that there’s a lot of messaging gender wise, both for men that does not serve them, that your value is in working and your value is only if you provide. And for women, it doesn’t serve us either, that we think that we’re supposed to be the only person doing all of the housework and the only person doing the caregiving and also making the money.
Tori Dunlap:
I think it’s so important to talk about, and it’s what we’ve talked about on the show over and over and over again, is ambition, wanting money. All of these things are not bad or wrong. You just want choices. You want options. You want flexibility. My entire thesis of our work is ambition is not dirty ,wanting money is not dirty, it’s not wrong, it’s not immoral. You just want safety and security and the options to leave situations you don’t want to be in anymore and put yourself in better ones. That’s it.
Mel Robbins:
It’s true.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, Mel, my last question for you. Can you walk me through the day in the life of someone who is embracing the let them theory from the moment in the coffee shop where someone you off and cuts you in line all the way to the end of your day? What is the day in the life of someone look like if they embrace it?
Mel Robbins:
Well, from the moment that you wake up, most of us have high cortisol levels and we immediately are worried about the day ahead or something that happened last night. And so most people, when they wake up, they immediately start the doom thinking and the doom scrolling.
Tori Dunlap:
We haven’t got to the coffee shop yet.
Mel Robbins:
No. Not even.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re right.
Mel Robbins:
So if you’re waking up in a moment in your life where you wake up and you’re bracing, say, let them. And take a deep breath. I like to, when I wake up with a little panic, I put my hand on my heart and I take a deep breath. And then the let me part is just like I’m capable of getting through the day. I’m capable of taking care of … I’m capable of meeting this moment, I’m capable of having a good day. And then you, five, four, three, two, one get up. And I have a simple morning routine. And so you do your morning routine, whatever that may be. And a lot of times the needs of other people are going to stop you from doing some simple things in the morning. So if you feel drawn to your phone because you’re worried there might be something on there from work, let them. Let them wait five minutes. You deserve five minutes of peace.
Let me just make my bed. Let me brush my teeth. Let me go for a walk. Let me meditate. Let me do my journaling thing. Let me move my body before I allow anybody on social media into my brain. And that’s how it starts. When you get in the car and there’s traffic, let there be traffic. When you get to the coffee shop and the person in front of you is taking way too freaking long and you feel the volcano start to erupt in your body, just let them because you have choice. You could leave the line, you could close your eyes and take a deep breath. You could call somebody while you’re waiting. You could read something. You could text somebody that you care about. You’ve got choice about what you do at this time. So don’t let a micro moment stress you out.
And it’s bigger than stressing you out because the volcano that you feel, or the tension that you feel is a sign that you brain is switching from the conscious part of your brain to the amygdala, which means you’re now in fight or flight over some dumb stranger taking too long at the coffee shop. And when you’re in fight or flight, that means your nervous system is on edge. It means your thinking is not working properly. You’ve now allowed the outside world and something stupid to put you into a stress response and you don’t have to if you say let them. Let me just take a deep breath. Let me ask myself, do I want to stay in this line? Yeah, because I want my coffee. Okay, great. And then it just goes from there.
If you have something to say at work … One of the major things that women do not do at work is we do not speak up in meetings. And it is a huge mistake to not speak up in a meeting because it is the most visible place at work. And even if people aren’t calling on you, you want to learn how to say something. And if you’re introverted or shy or this is difficult for you to do, simply piggyback on somebody. I just want to say, Tori, that is a fantastic suggestion. I think that’s a great strategic move on our part. Boom, we’re done. You just contributed. And I say this because there’s research that I know that you’re aware of, that the only skill or behavior change that directly contributes to a woman getting a raise or a promotion is whether or not her contributions are known. And the sad fact is you think that your contribution should be known by the person you are reporting to. I want you to assume from this day forward, nobody at work knows what you’re working on because everybody’s so stressed out and busy, they don’t even know what they’re working on.
And so your visibility is your responsibility, which means you, if you want to be promoted and paid more, you need … Every Friday, this would be my advice to you. Make it a habit every Friday to just write down all the things you did this week because you don’t even remember all the things you did this week. The problem solved, the customers that you helped, the things that you took on that were not yours to take on. And keep a list because you’re going to forget. And then before you leave for the end of the day, you’re going to send at the end of the week a quick note to the person you report to, Hey, these are the things that got accomplished, these are the things that I did above and beyond, these are the things that are stalled out and this I didn’t do anything on. This is my focus for next week. If there’s something different that you want that is a strategic change, let me know Monday morning and I’ll make that my number one thing next week. You just now did two things. You made your work visible, you also made your boss believe you are the single most important person that works for them because you made it easy for them to understand what you’re doing.
Tori Dunlap:
Mel, thank you for such an incredible conversation. Literally, we prepped a whole doc, didn’t touch any of it, which means actually it’s a great episode. Anytime we’ve done that, it’s been some of the best episodes we’ve ever done, so thank you. The Let Them Theory is out wherever books are sold, but feel free to plug away my friend.
Mel Robbins:
No. You just got everything here. You don’t need to buy the book. You don’t even need to listen to the audiobook. You have the basics here, and if it feels like the Serenity Prayer or stoicism or Buddhism or letting go or something that you have heard somewhere else, that’s exactly why this is so powerful because it’s familiar. It is what your parents said in their own ways. It is what you’ve heard in synagogue or church sermons or other places. Because learning how to not focus on out there, but to actually take your power back and really focus on how you respond to it, this has been the truth about the human experience since the beginning of time. I’ve just come along with my own mistakes and lessons and my own attempts to apply these principles to my life at the age of 56 with a message that is packaged like a modern tool at a moment in history where we all need to be reminded that we do have power. We are not helpless. And there are simple things within your power that you can do that will help you make anything that you’re facing a little bit better and you deserve that.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you. Thank you for your time.
Mel Robbins:
Thank you. You’re a fucking rock star.
Tori Dunlap:
Mel, that was so fun. Thank you so much to Mel for joining us. You can get our number one New York Times bestselling book, The Let Them Theory, wherever you get your books, and you can join me in listening to the Mel Robbins podcast. I believe it releases two episodes a week, and that’s available wherever you’re listening to this podcast right now. Thank you as always, financial feminists for being here. Thank you for supporting feminist media. Thank you for sharing this episode with somebody in your life. I really appreciate it. You sharing is the easiest way to continue supporting the show and allow it to be free for you, and we just appreciate you being here as always. I hope you have a kick ass day. I’ll see you back here soon. Bye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K Podcast. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Research by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Daryl Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Meghan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
