Debt can feel isolating, but today we’re breaking the stigma.
I know firsthand how heavy financial scarcity can feel—especially when you’re dealing with debt. It’s not just numbers on a screen; it’s fear, shame, and anxiety that can leave you frozen in place. In this episode, I’m joined by Natalia Brown, Chief Compliance and Consumer Affairs Officer at National Debt Relief, who not only brings professional expertise, but powerful lived experience growing up in Harlem and navigating financial hardship herself.
We talk about the real, raw emotional toll of debt—from the societal stigma to the psychological patterns that keep us stuck. Natalia breaks down predatory lending, payday loan traps, and how to know if debt consolidation or settlement is right for you. We also dive into something so many of us feel but rarely name: financial dysmorphia. This episode is full of judgment-free, actionable advice on how to reclaim your financial power and begin again—with clarity, compassion, and a solid plan.
Key takeaways:
Debt doesn’t discriminate—and neither should our empathy.
Natalia emphasizes that debt can affect anyone regardless of income, race, or background. From medical bills to job loss to funeral expenses, life happens, and often in financially devastating ways. Rather than shame, what people really need is understanding and a plan to get back on track.
Shame keeps people stuck—having a plan sets them free.
One of the biggest barriers to change is the emotional burden of shame and fear. Natalia stresses that when people finally speak to someone compassionate and walk away with a tangible plan, it’s like “sunlight comes out.” Starting fresh often begins with reaching out for help.
Not all debt is created equal—understand the terms and intent.
Natalia breaks down the difference between good vs. bad debt, secured vs. unsecured debt, and why payday loans are especially dangerous (some carry up to 400% interest!). She also warns against flexible interest rates and urges borrowers to read the fine print and know the consequences of “0% APR” deals.
Debt settlement is a realistic, shame-free solution for many.
If you’re struggling with high-interest credit cards, personal loans, or medical bills, debt settlement can be a way to regain control—especially if you’ve tried other methods. Natalia explains who qualifies, how the process works, and why it may be a better alternative to bankruptcy.
Financial trauma and “money dysmorphia” are real.
Growing up with scarcity can deeply influence how you relate to money later in life—even when you’re financially stable. Natalia and I discuss financial dysmorphia, the fear of “not having enough,” and how psychological patterns can drive overspending, hoarding, or avoidance of money altogether.
The next generation deserves better.
Natalia shares how she’s teaching her kids and nieces about money through age-appropriate lessons—from fake-money chores to savings apps. She emphasizes transparency, long-term goal setting, and self-worth as key to breaking generational cycles of financial stress and shame.
Notable quotes
“You have to make a choice. Am I comfortable with being uncomfortable or do I want to make a change? Because you’re already uncomfortable. You’re already stressing about the money. You’re already living day to day. Do you want to live in that kind of perpetual state or do you want things to change?”
“There shouldn’t be shame around debt. There are a million and one reasons why people go into it—and most of them aren’t because someone was irresponsible.”
“We like to say whole human finance. You are a whole person. You have different aspects. Are you addressing each aspect? Because it all flows into the quality of your life.”
Episode-at-a-glance
≫ 00:59 Diving into Debt: Myths, Red Flags, and Consolidation
≫ 01:53 The Importance of Financial Education and Transparency
≫ 08:49 Understanding Loan Terms and Avoiding Debt Traps
≫ 14:52 The Predatory Nature of Payday Loans
≫ 17:55 The Emotional and Psychological Aspects of Debt
≫ 28:44 Financial Dysmorphia: Understanding and Overcoming
≫ 32:48 Setting Realistic Financial Goals
≫ 34:06 Overcoming Financial Fear and Shame
≫ 37:11 Understanding Debt Settlement
≫ 40:19 Personal Loans and Debt Management
≫ 43:41 Addressing Financial Shame and Judgment
≫ 52:22 Teaching Financial Literacy to the Next Generation
Natalia’s Links:
For more information on a variety of debt topics, feel free to visit National Debt Relief’s Resource page for more information on individual debt situations: https://www.nationaldebtrelief.com/resources/
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Meet Natalia
Natalia Brown is a certified debt specialist with National Debt Relief. Brown is now its Chief Compliance and Consumer Affairs Officer, focusing on representing and advocating for the company’s clients by ensuring NDR upholds and follows best-in-class practices. Brown channels her passion for supporting and empowering underserved communities through extensive volunteerism across numerous nonprofits, including the nonprofit she co-founded, Inspiring Youth for Success (IYFS), New Women New Yorkers, and CommonBondz, as well as industry organizations, including being on the Advisory Council for The American College of Financial Services’ Center for Economic Empowerment and Equality, and an executive board member for the American Association for Debt Resolution.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
Financial scarcity is so pervasive in our society, and it’s even worse if you have debt. When we have scarcity, we can end up frozen in fear. You may have all of the tools you actually need, but too much anxiety to use them. We’re joined today by Natalia Brown, a certified debt specialist and chief compliance and consumer affairs officer for National Debt Relief.
Natalia Brown:
I like to say our goal is to get you out of debt so you can rebuild your financial future.
Tori Dunlap:
She’s passionate about helping people with the financial literacy and education needed to achieve financial freedom and peace of mind by getting and staying out of debt.
Natalia Brown:
And I think that’s what people fear, right? They fear that they’re going to be judged. They fear that people are going to snicker or talk behind their backs, and I think that’s why a lot of people don’t talk about it.
Tori Dunlap:
Today, Natalia shares her story of growing up in Harlem as the granddaughter of immigrants and learning how to tackle her own financial scarcity.
Natalia Brown:
So, if the goal is getting out of debt, credit is not, in my opinion, the most important thing, right? You’re not going to buy a home if you’re carrying $50,000 in balances. You got to take care of the debt first.
Tori Dunlap:
We dive into topics like financial dysmorphia, debt, including understanding loan terms, good versus bad debt, the biggest myths and red flags about debt consolidation and how we can help the next generation learn better money habits.
Natalia Brown:
There’s always a way to borrow money, but there’s not enough conversation about is that the right amount of money? Should you be borrowing that money? Do you have the means to pay it back?
Tori Dunlap:
This episode is packed with so much good information and a lot of hope. So, if you’re feeling like you’re drowning in debt, this one is for you. But first, a word from our sponsors.
Can you tell me why your work is so important and what you do?
Natalia Brown:
Oh, why my work is so important? That is a great question. It’s important to me personally because I get the opportunity to make an impact on people’s lives directly. Working at National Debt Relief allows me to one, discuss things like this with you to get the word out that debt is not a four-letter word, as many people may feel shame around it, and it allows me to actually change people’s lives in a positive way to get them on the path to financial freedom. And it’s just been so fulfilling to be able to tell my kids at home that I do something good every day. As a chief client operations officer a couple of years ago, I was in charge of all the client-facing team, so making sure that there was quality behind the conversations we had with all of our clients. And right now I’m the chief compliance officer for National Debt Relief, making sure that we are one, following all laws and making sure that all of our customers are protected under the consumer affairs part of my position as well.
So, it’s important to not just help people, but to make sure you’re helping people in the way and making sure that we are super transparent, we are looking at our best practices and we want to be one of the most trusted companies in our space.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. So, we typically like to ask folks what their first money memory is. What is the first time you remember thinking about money?
Natalia Brown:
It was in kindergarten and that’s when Penney Stores still existed. I’m kind of aging myself. I may not look it, but I didn’t have the pennies to go to the Penney Store. So, if you didn’t have at least a dime, I think it was a 5 cent minimum or something like that, I remember looking through cushions and coats so that I could go to the store, which was right across the street from my school. So, the crossing guard would kind of let us go before the bell rang, before we had to line up and I would run to the store, we would get peanut chews and things like that, and I just remember always just scavenging for coins that my mom would miss. So, that’s my first money memory of just the association of scarcity because we just didn’t have a lot when I was growing up. I knew not to ask. So, it was if I could find it, I can make something out of it.
Tori Dunlap:
You had to be a little scrappy.
Natalia Brown:
Yes, very much so.
Tori Dunlap:
You talk about how you grew up as “someone from a neighborhood in a family that should not have been successful and I was regularly counted out growing up.” Can you share more about your background and how being counted out motivated you to find your own success?
Natalia Brown:
Sure. So, I grew up in Harlem in the 80s and I don’t know if your listeners know what that means, but it was not a very nice neighborhood. It’s wonderful now, we have a Whole Foods and Starbucks and we come a very long way, but growing up, it wasn’t like that. There was a heavy drug use in my area. There were people who were dropping out of school and middle school and they all looked like me. So, I very regularly by teachers, by people who should be encouraging you to do more would kind of discount the entire class, myself included. I had a couple of people who believed that I could be more, so that’s what really kind of changed my trajectory. I could have gone either way down either path. It was a matter of survival for a very long time, and education became kind of the focus and my mom put me in every afterschool program that possibly was and it was available.
So, I did everything from tap to dance to art, whatever it was she had me in it just to keep me out of the streets. So, that’s being counted out can be devastating in a way, especially as a kid, but just having one or two people believe in you can make all the difference. So that’s my story and my background and why I ended up on a path that I ended up on.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and I know your grandma immigrated here from Trinidad, so how did growing up in an immigrant family affect the way you viewed money?
Natalia Brown:
So, my grandmother didn’t have a lot of education. She actually did not finish high school. So, she came to America simply with the idea that her grandchildren, not even her immediate children would be in a better place, but she figured by the time she had grandchildren, we would be in a better position as a family. So, her thing was to stuff money in envelopes and under beds. She didn’t know anything about America really, or the financial systems that we have here.
My mom read Rich Dad Poor Dad I believe, and that was her first introduction to saving and generational wealth and things like that. And even then she didn’t understand all those concepts either. My mom finished high school and she went back to college way later in her life. So, for me, what I learned from my mom is pay yourself first. And that was something that stuck with me was you can pay bills, you can pay rent, but we always forget about ourselves. Treat yourself as if you are an asset. So, I always, no matter how much money I made, even my first job, I think it was like $9.25, I made sure that I saved 50 cents for every dollar that I made and it was tough because I was used to living on scarcity, so it was easy for me to do that. I know that’s not easy for everyone and she also taught me, “Anytime you get a raise, you ignore half of that raise and save the rest.” So, I’ve been doing that [inaudible 00:06:59] my entire life and then I learned on my own some investments and things like that.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. So, your expertise is really about debt. Can we talk about, first off, what kind of trends you’re seeing? Why are people going into debt, especially right now? What kind of debt is it? Tell me about the lay of the debt landscape.
Natalia Brown:
It is a desert out there as far as income goes. It’s just cost of living plus what the average income is. It’s just becoming more and more disparate. So, with that comes struggles to pay medical debt, struggles to live everyday life, struggles to find a decent place to live with reasonable cost. I see a lot of new things like buy now, pay later. That’s kind of like the old school layaway, but it’s very different because now it’s credit based and I did see an article where that’s going to start being reported on credit reports, so that’s also something that people should be looking out for is the debt landscape, there’s always a way to borrow money, but there’s not enough conversation about is that the right amount of money? Should you be borrowing that money? Do you have the means to pay it back? Those are the conversations that I wish we were having more of, not just so much of the consumer mindset of, “Oh, yeah, I can put my DoorDash on a buy now, pay later plan now.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Natalia Brown:
That’s not a good idea. I understand being desperate and needing food to feed your family and things like that. So, they’re going to be people that are going to rely on it because they don’t really have any other choice, and that’s what I’m seeing. I’m seeing a lot of people making decisions because they have to make decisions right now in the moment that are going to have an impact down the road, but they have to make that choice if they’re going to survive.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Well, let’s talk about that a little bit more because it’s something we speak about a lot and that I educate people about a lot is that the debt systems that exist, some are there to increase your opportunities in life. We think about going to college with student loans. We think about buying a house and getting a mortgage, and then there’s other kinds of debt that are predatory at worst, but kind of gray area at best. The whole thing that’s happening right now is like, “Yeah, you can split your DoorDash order into payments.” So, when we’re taking on debt, how much do we need to consider the terms and the kind of the logistics of that debt, if that makes sense? Because I think a lot of times we look at like, “Oh, it’s 0% and so we’re fine,” but it’s not always 0%.
Natalia Brown:
Oh, I have a story about that. I got caught in one of those.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, no. Oh, talk to me.
Natalia Brown:
So, when I was in college, I actually, I was so excited about this too, it was a 0% no APR for 18 months, whatever it is. I did not read those terms to your point, and I was like, “I can afford this new living room set. It’s going to be my first brand new living room set.” And Levitz doesn’t exist anymore, but that’s where I went and I got my first furniture set. I was so proud of myself and I was like, “I can pay this off in 18 months. I feel like an adult.” I did not pay it off in the 18 months and I think it was the 19th, the 20th month, I wasn’t too far off, but what I didn’t understand was all of the interest for those 18 months would be tacked on if I didn’t make it by the 18th month. I didn’t realize that… My thought process was, “Oh, I’m only going to get interest on what’s left of the balance, not the entire balance.”
So, that actually put me in debt for the first time ever. It took me a while. I had to go to mom and kind of ask her for help and then I had to pay her back and I didn’t understand debt at that time at all.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Natalia Brown:
So, it is really important to look at those terms, to understand how the interest is going to be charged to understand what the payment terms are and then realistically, are you going to be able to afford it because one or two months late can have a devastating impact when all that interest is added, especially on 0% interest until whenever. And then also looking at those payment plans, sometimes if you miss a payment then the price goes up or there’s more interest. So, it’s really important to know what you’re getting into. Just like anything else, I like to say, I look at reviews way more for shoes and for clothes. I want to see if it’s good, but you should do that with financial products too. So, if you’re going to take out debt, look at the reviews, they exist, right? You can look at the lenders and see if they’re favorable to people who may need a little bit of help. Do they have assistance programs? That’s important to look at as well.
Tori Dunlap:
I know from research from my book that actually the vast majority of women who are in debt are there because they don’t understand how a loan works. And when you hear a stat like that, really this tells me one, it’s an education issue, most definitely is just people not understanding what is principal, what is interest, what are the terms, but also, and I would love to talk about this, most companies again, are not thinking about you and your own best interests. They’re thinking about how to make money off of you. So, yeah, they give you term sheets that are college dissertation long, it’s crazy, or again 0% APR, but it kicks in at a certain time. And even what you just said of, “Oh, it’s not on the remaining balance, it’s on the first amount, the original principal that you took out.” So, what kind of terms do we need to be looking at or what are the green flags, red flags when we’re about to take on debt?
Natalia Brown:
I love that you’re asking these questions. It always depends on what you’re taking the money out for, what the reason is for there’s a difference between a mortgage and maybe a personal loan because you want to make repairs or whatever it might be. So, the interest rate is always going to be important. One thing to really stay away from are flexible rates that change with the market. That’s how a lot of people lost their homes during the home bubble in that crisis is because there was flexible rates, so it looked really good when you took out that loan when it was really low, but people didn’t account for when it was going to be 7%, which increases their mortgage payment. So, flexible rates are a really big red flag for me because you don’t know how high it can go for the most part, and even if it does go high, can you still afford it? Is the loan now still worth taking it out? So, that’s a huge red flag.
Green flags are fixed terms where you know exactly what you’re getting into. You’re not going to have any surprises. Look for hidden fees. There’s lots of conversations about junk fees. If you have a late payment, are you going to be charged an extra $35? Are you going to be charged an extra $50 if your deposit doesn’t go through or your payment doesn’t go through? So, look for the additional fees that can get tacked on to a loan as well.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, one of the things I always say, especially if you’re doing consolidation or you’re moving one debt from another place, you always need to have a plan to pay that off like your furniture example, right? It’s like, okay, if you’re making an intentional choice to say, “Yeah, I’m going to sign up for this 0% APR,” whatever, and it only lasts for 12, 18 months, okay, fine, but you need to have a concrete plan to make sure that your debt is not there when the loan ends because to your point, then stuff really starts getting expensive.
Natalia Brown:
Very much so. Even in my example, had I read, so I did make a conscious choice to make it the 19, 20s months because in my head I was like, “Okay, I’ll take the hit of extra couple of dollars because the balance is so low.” Right? It goes back to that educational piece and just making sure you know what you’re getting into, 100%.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Do you believe in the idea of good debt versus bad debt? I would love to hear your thoughts and I’ll share mine.
Natalia Brown:
I do think that there’s bad debt. I don’t know if they still exist, but payday loans are really [inaudible 00:14:42]-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, they 100% exist girl. Oh, yeah, I was going to you about it. I was going to ask you about it.
Natalia Brown:
I’m going to say short term loans. Short term loans in general are not a good idea.
Tori Dunlap:
Can we talk about, before you move on, because this is something that in almost every live workshop I do, I get on my soapbox and talk about, because everyone who doesn’t tell me that personal finance has nothing to do with systemic oppression has never understood what a payday loan is? So, can we talk about what these loans are? Because I think most of our listeners have never had to take one out or don’t understand just how fucking predatory this is.
Natalia Brown:
So, it is extremely predatory. It is a loan that is anywhere usually from paycheck to paycheck. So, it can be anywhere between seven and 14 days. The interest rates are the issue here. It’s someone who needs a payday loan or takes out a payday loan or someone who is desperate for a couple of $100. So, these are not huge loans. These are anywhere between $100 and let’s say a $1,000 on average. And these are people that are basically looking for an advance on their paycheck because they have to pay for something that they cannot wait until their paycheck arrives. And then the idea is they’re supposed to pay that back when their paycheck comes in within the seven or 14 days, depending on what that loan was.
The problem is most people are in a cycle. By the time that payment comes up and their check comes up, something else has happened, they have to take another one out the following week because now the rent is due and they can’t wait for their next check. It is a vicious cycle of borrowing money and paying back more money than you borrowed, and it is very hard to get out of that cycle once you start borrowing with a payday loan, and that’s why I call it predatory because the interest rate is so high. I’ve seen some that were like 899%.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, the average is 400%. The average in the country is 400%.
Natalia Brown:
It’s ridiculous.
Tori Dunlap:
And to put that for… It’s insane and to ground that for listeners, average credit cards, 22%, pretty high average student loans like 5%, 6% depending on the loan. So, you’re looking at, and again, I’m not adding an extra zero, it’s 400%, and of course, that’s a cycle because you’re immediately four times more in debt than when you started.
Natalia Brown:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
And it tends to be lower income people, black and brown people, they tend to put these payday loan places in lower income communities and you’ve probably driven past a million of them, but maybe have not registered. And I don’t know if you can say the names, I can, but we’re talking like Moneytrees. This is where people are going to get these loans that to your point, okay, normally an emergency fund, we would hope would cover it, but I just need $500 until I get paid next. Well, now it’s $500 with 400% interest.
Natalia Brown:
Interest on it. Yeah. And it’s also people that are doing this, I should mention, are the people that can’t get credit cards. The only requirement for a payday loan is to have a job. So, there are people who may not have credit history. There are people who are already in debt, and now this has become the choice to help them keep their heads above water. And you’re absolutely right. It is very prevalent in specific neighborhoods where this is happening, where access to credit is not necessarily available.
Tori Dunlap:
So, I know I keep harping on it, but this is my last question specifically about it, is that there’s so much about debt that can feel very freeing in terms of I, again, am making this decision to hopefully better my life. And then there’s so much of debt that is predatory or feels such like a slippery slope and especially that companies are not, again, out there in your own best interest, they’re out there to make money. So, when we’re thinking about going into debt beyond just looking for those red flags or green flags, what kind of gut check do we need to do or what’s going on psychologically for us before we make the decision to go into debt?
Natalia Brown:
So, be intentional. If you’re going into debt, be very intentional as to why, because that doesn’t have to be a four-letter word. It can be a tool if you’re using it as a vehicle for your financial freedom. If you’re buying a home and you know can afford your home, that’s a reason why you might take out a loan. If you just want the new bag that just came out because you want to keep up with the neighbors or the friends or whoever and you really can’t afford, it’s probably not the best decision. So, being intentional if it’s going to… I like to have a conversation about needs versus want. Is this something that you need? If it’s something that’s on your life plan, if it’s something that’s going to meet one of your goals, that’s debt that you should be comfortable with, you can plan around. You can read all the terms and conditions, and it’s not a four-letter word.
If it is not intentional, if you’re mindlessly spending, if you’re putting everything on the credit card because it’s more convenient, if you’re only paying the minimums, you need to take a step back and look at why am I charging it? Is it out of necessity? Am I dependent on credit to live my everyday life? That might be some lifestyle changes that might need to happen. So, it really is just making sure that you’re intentional with why you’re using debt, why you’re taking it out and understanding your payment plan on how you’re going to make sure that you aren’t just paying the minimums because that’s also a trap, right? You’re not going to get out of debt anytime soon only paying the minimums. Can you afford to pay more than a minimum of any debt that you take out is a really, really poignant question to ask yourself, is this going to matter, right? Is this something I can forego or is this something that I need to do or is this something that’s on my path?
Tori Dunlap:
A really great episode to check out if you’d like to learn more about payday loans is all the way back in our first season, episode six with my friend, Tricia Cleppe. Trust me, it’s worth the scroll. When we come back, I’m talking with Natalia about a phrase you may have heard online recently, financial dysmorphia and why a shocking amount of women have fear around getting their finances together. Stay tuned.
I would love to talk about what I think most of our audience struggles with when they’re taking off on debt is that kind of gray middle area because I agree. I think, okay, there’s the necessity, there’s the need to take out debt or again, this is going to advance my life in some way. And I think most people understand, “Oh, me doing a crazy shopping spree at the mall is not it.” But I’m seeing more and more now, it’s like, “Hey, I got invited to be the maid of honor at my best friend’s wedding and she’s asking me to go on this bachelorette party that I cannot afford.” Do I take on debt knowing it’s a once in a lifetime experience? Or even Taylor Swift tickets, Beyonce tickets, like, “Okay, I’m trying to create memories here.” I think that that’s where a lot of people end up justifying debt to themselves because it’s either like, “I don’t want to upset my friend.” Hopefully she’s not getting married again.
This is a once in a lifetime experience. Taylor Swift’s never going to go on an Eras Tour again. So, that’s the gray area I would love to spend some time in because I think that’s actually where a lot of people take on debt. They know the bags are like the one-time purchase feels like, “Okay, I’m probably not going to make that decision,” but what about the emotional decision of, “I need to be there for my best friend,” or, “I need to do this thing because it’s never going to happen again?”
Natalia Brown:
So, it really is planning for it when it happens. If you are a person that loves concerts, you love festivals, you love to travel, I don’t think you have to stop doing those things, even if you are carrying some debt, but you do need to plan for it. Making sure, again, if you’re paying yourself first in that, it is I like to go travel, so I’m going to make sure every time I get a check, I’m putting $5 or whatever I can afford towards my travel fund so that when that does come up, I am available and ready to go. If it is your best friend, sometimes transparency is key. Your best friend should understand and hopefully should already know what you can afford or not. That’s a friendship that needs to… You take them out for coffee or walk in a park and have a conversation around like, “Here’s who I am financially, I want to support you. How can I do that without spending $1,000?” Right?
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Natalia Brown:
So, have the conversation and sometimes you’ll find out who your friends really are. If you find that that bride is not really accepting of that, then is that really your friend? So, sometimes those are hard truths that we need to find out when we have those conversations. It’s be transparent and as planned as much as you can, and even for people who are on a very low income, low budget, really decide. Sometimes we ignore the fact that we’re talented people. Everyone has a thing that they just do that somebody else would pay for. Take advantage of your skills. If you like to paint, sell some paintings. If you like to braid hair, braid some hair. You can make money in extra ways so that you can cover the additional expense if there’s something that you truly want to do.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I love that. You have shared, “I don’t believe debt discriminates.” Can you talk a little bit more about that and how you see that play out?
Natalia Brown:
It just doesn’t. It’s what I’ve seen. We have a huge demographic of people, young, old, multi-generational, different communities, really education around finances, especially around with women, I love that you said that earlier. There was a fact. I can’t remember what year it was, but there was a time where women could not take a loan out without a male cosigner, right? And that wasn’t that long ago.
Tori Dunlap:
So, they couldn’t get a credit card in their own name until 1974, yep. And they couldn’t get a business loan in their own name until I believe 1980.
Natalia Brown:
Exactly. So, when you talk about education, we didn’t get this from our parents, and if you didn’t have a male educating you, there’s a lot behind that. It’s difficult to just say that everyone has a level playing field because there’s different education across different demographics, and then there’s a matter of life happens to everyone. It doesn’t matter who you are. So, you could lose a spouse, you can have medical debt pile up because we don’t have free healthcare. And even when you have insurance, and that’s something that surprises people a lot, just because you have insurance does not mean that your medical bills are going to be low depending on what the procedures are. There are people that have to pay $100,000 for open heart surgery and they have insurance, and that’s going to put someone in debt. It’s like you have to choose between, “Well, I’m taking out debt to cover my medical expenses,” and boom, it doesn’t matter who you are.
So, you could lose a spouse, you could be a two income household and become a one income household overnight. There were many people who owned homes in 2008, had flexible interest rates and then they were homeless or unhoused. So, it can happen to anyone. Life just happens to everyone and you can’t plan for everything. So, that’s why I say it doesn’t discriminate at all.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. And the part about having an insurance, for example, I think the medical debt is some of the just… All debt feels a little icky, but that’s the stuff where I just get really emotional because the cost of having a child in the United States is crazy, and you better have good insurance if you don’t want to go into debt to do that. And that’s for a, I said non-stress pregnancy, but a pregnancy that doesn’t have additional complications. My dad is literally going in for a medical procedure today, and I just think about they’re going to be okay no matter what happens. But what if they didn’t have insurance first of all? But what if they didn’t have an emergency fund? What if they had okay insurance and what if something comes up? There’s just a million ways that debt has nothing to do with how smart you are with money or how good your financial decisions are. There’s so many parts of life that are, of course unpredictable that unfortunately have a severe financial impact that you can only plan so much for.
Natalia Brown:
100%. And even, I don’t want to make it more, but I have a situation where I had a family member and we’ve had employees unfortunately pass, and there was no way their burial expenses, that’s also a debt that families take on because it’s expensive. The medical debt is expensive. We have a lot of multi-generational families in our program as well where there’s children and they’re taking care of elderly parents. You’re paying for medical expenses for elderly parents and you’re raising children and you’re trying to live your life. It becomes really, really difficult. And that’s just living your life, just being a family. That’s not doing anything additional. It shouldn’t be such a stigma around debt because it really can happen to anyone, especially when bad things happen.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and actually once you started bringing up death, I thought you were going to say that sometimes if somebody dies, their debt still doesn’t go away. Can we maybe talk about that for a second? I remember finding out for the first time that if you have a cosigner in your student loans and you die, that debt doesn’t just vanish. Can we talk about that for a second?
Natalia Brown:
It does not. So, when someone cosigns, they are essentially saying, “I will pay this debt no matter what happens to the other person.” So, I frown upon cosigning unless… I don’t even know if there’s unless. I know a lot of parents do it for their children, especially for college loans and things like that. But it is not a good idea because you’re exactly right. When you cosign for someone, you are responsible. It does impact your credit. It doesn’t matter if that person stops paying, it’s impacting you the same way it’s impacting them.
There’s some states that will put it in like if you have an estate. So, they will take it from your estate. They will put a lien against properties. If that property is in that person’s name, the creditors will find their money somehow some way. So, that is something, yes, that we do have people who are retired and going back to work in that program sometimes just because they’re worried about the debt they’re going to leave behind for their families and they want to try to take care of it before they reach that point where they can’t, and it’s incredibly heartbreaking.
Tori Dunlap:
Can we talk about financial dysmorphia because I’m seeing it all over social media and even when I ask our community, what is the number one thing you’re nervous about with money? Almost all of the responses are that I won’t have enough, even if they’re doing okay. So, talk to me about what it is and how you see it play out.
Natalia Brown:
Absolutely. It is a psychological thing. So, I can even say there’s a point in my life where it didn’t matter, because I grew up with scarcity, it didn’t matter how much I had. I was afraid of going back to scarcity. So, it was very hard for me to say, “Oh, this can all…” I would tell myself, “This could all go away very quickly.” So, I need to squirrel away more acorns. It’s like I have to get as many of these acorns as I can, hide them away just in case. And then on the opposite end, when someone grows up in abundance, they don’t necessarily know the value and what happens when you don’t put something away for something bad and then people end up somewhere in the middle. So, it’s a matter of mindset.
At the end of the day, it’s have the relationship with the money, have the relationship with your goals and how money can be the tool. So, think of the money as a hammer or a wrench or whatever it is, and that’s how I got myself out of it is a matter of every dollar should be working for you and you earned it. So, make sure that it’s working for you in a way that is best used for your life and your goals versus worrying about what could happen, what might happen. But you plan for those things and once you have a plan for those things, the anxiety around that kind of goes away. Sometimes people definitely overinflate how much they have to save because they’re so worried and in the opposite end, they are spending because they’re like, “Oh, there’ll always be more,” because that’s the mindset that they’ve grown up in.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I think the biggest way that anybody with that financial insecurity, that money dysmorphia can work to change it is understanding your financial trauma. And that’s why I spend the whole first chapter of my book talking about it, because you can’t get a budget together. You can’t progress on your path to debt payoff and expect yourself to not self-sabotage in some way or make bad decisions if you haven’t understood how do you view money? What sort of narratives are you believing about money or people who have money? We have to start there as uncomfortable as it might be because that’s the stuff that really actually impacts your decisions. It’s not about numbers, it’s not about math. It’s about your psychology and your emotions and how you grew up around money.
Natalia Brown:
100% agree. I want to read that chapter again. There’s another book, I can’t remember the name of it right now, but I think it’s the Psychology of Money, specifically-
Tori Dunlap:
Psychology of Money, Morgan Housel. Yep.
Natalia Brown:
Yeah, there you go. And when I read that, I was like, “Oh, that makes so much sense because we could end up judging other people for what their relationship is with money and how they’re spending their money.” It’s like, “Oh, I could never do that.” But there’s always a reason. There’s always a psychological reason why someone is doing something. So, I think, again, we tend to not have open, transparent conversations about where we are financially with our friends, with our family. The more you do that, the more you break down those walls, the more it’s… You don’t have to do it on your own. You don’t have to break down these walls and kind of get through it on your own. The more conversations you have, the more you can change your psychological landscape around it.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and related to that, we found this stat that says 40% of Gen Z feel like they do have the financial tools and education, but they’re not using them. Why do you think that is?
Natalia Brown:
I don’t know, but I’m going to guess it’s probably because it’s not practical. Anytime I get advice that sounds great, but then I don’t use it, it wasn’t practical, right? In use, it didn’t work. So, people know the right thing to do. People know I should save, but what does that mean? It’s like-
Tori Dunlap:
Or why are you doing it? There’s no psychological like-
Natalia Brown:
Right.
Tori Dunlap:
There’s no why for you. That’s the thing I see with women all the time is everybody has been told, “You should save money,” but they’re like, “How much? Where should it go? Why am I saving?” They don’t have the details or the specifics.
Natalia Brown:
Exactly. So, it’s getting into those details. That’s when advice becomes impactful when it’s actually meaningful to that individual, and it’s also easy to implement. It’s like dieting. You can say, “I’m going to lose 15 pounds,” but how are you going to do it? What are you going to eat? When are you going to work out? You have to go a mile deep and really set out that plan and a plan that actually works for you. What works for me doesn’t work for Tori. What works for anyone else? You have to do what works for you with the mindset that this is what my goal is and this is how I’m going to get there, and that might be a different path for everyone.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, we always say on the show that a goal without a plan is just a wish. So, if you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to get my first $100K, I’m going to save my emergency fund.” And I’m like, “Okay, do you have an automation set up? Are you limiting how much you spend money on stuff you don’t even like?”
Natalia Brown:
How long is it going to take you?
Tori Dunlap:
Right, right. Are you trying to do it in six months? Are you trying to do it in six years? These are all really important things to know before you’d be like, “Yeah, I’m going to do this crazy audacious thing.” Or even just like, “Yeah, I’m going to save my emergency fund.”
Natalia Brown:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, for me, it’s don’t stop there because I think the fun part is coming up with this big idea, but then once you have that big idea, work backwards and figure out how you’re actually going to get there. Don’t stop at the big idea, then plan for that big idea. If that’s something you’re excited about, use that to plan the whole thing out.
Tori Dunlap:
One of the other things that I’ve been meaning to bring to Kristen, our producer to do an episode on is the amount of messages I get like, “Oh, I have your book, but I’m too scared to read it.” I think that there’s a lot of people out there who maybe listened to this show or listened once or twice, or they’re just so scared to look at their money. They’re so scared to look at their debt because they haven’t unpacked the shame. They feel anxious and they feel fearful. And I think often, especially with women, sometimes too, we have the tools that we need or we have the education and we don’t believe we’re enough or we don’t believe we’re worthy of taking ourselves and our decisions seriously. And so, I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s part of it too of like, “Okay, I follow the accounts or I have the books, but I can’t bring myself to read them, or I can’t bring myself to actually look because I’m too scared of what I might find.” So, what’s going on there especially if the debt feels so overwhelming?
Natalia Brown:
So, it’s a tough question to ask yourself is do I want things to stay the same or do I want to grow? Growing is sometimes painful. You have to take a hard look, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Usually is.
Natalia Brown:
So, it’s really is you have to make that choice. Am I comfortable with being uncomfortable or do I want to make a change? Because you’re already uncomfortable? You’re already stressing about the money. You’re already living day to day, whatever the situation is. There’s a reason why the book was bought and now you’re afraid to open it. Do you want to live in that kind of perpetual state or do you want things to change? If you want things to change, you have to do the hard thing. But that first step, it’s just one foot in front of the other. Opening the book is not going to end the world. Turning the page, getting into it and getting the education. Getting the education and the tools has to be more important than the fear. So, you have to decide what’s more important to you.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that. Everybody needs to go back about a minute and listen to that again. I’ll also say the thing that I always think about is time passes anyway. So, the amount of people who are like, “Oh, my God, it’s going to take me years to pay off this debt,” or, “It’s going to take me years to learn how to money.” First of all, it might not. You might be making it worse in your head than it actually is, but two, time will pass anyway. So, in five years, I’m going to be 35 and I can be 35 with no debt and thriving and doing all these things, or I can be in the exact same scenario and actually worse because my debt is compounded during that time. So, time will pass anyway. You have to decide what do I want these next six months, a year, five years to actually look like?
Natalia Brown:
Yeah, it’s a rational thinking. We like the warm fuzzy blanket around us at all times. Sometimes you have to take off the blanket and yeah, that’s a great analogy. It’s like you’re still going to age, you’re still going to… What do you want it to be in five years? I think sometimes we get into this immediate gratification and real life is a journey, so if you’re on the journey anyway, you might as well make it the best one you possibly can.
Tori Dunlap:
When we come back, we’re talking with Natalia about debt settlement, how to know if it’s right for you and the pros and cons of consolidating your debt. I also talk about personal views on personal loans and it actually might surprise you. Stay tuned.
So, let’s talk about what we can do. I think debt settlement is one of those questions that everybody wants to know about. So, what kind of debt falls into this category and what should we be considering before we decide, “Yeah, this is the right decision for me?”
Natalia Brown:
At National Debt Relief, we do unsecured debt only. So, that would be credit cards, medical bills, personal loans, things like that. And on the opposite end, just for anyone who wants to know, a secured debt is something that’s attached to an asset like a mortgage or a car, things like that. At National Debt Relief, we enroll clients who have $7,500 or more in unsecured debt. How it works is one, we do a free consultation. We do not accept clients that aren’t eligible for our program. What we do is look at what the debt is, what someone’s income might be. Do they have the ability to be a part of our program? Because deposits are necessary to make sure that we have enough funds to settle debt. Settlement is, a simple example would be if you came in with $10,000, we would estimate that we would settle that at half, so about $5,000.
So, you go through that process if you decide that you want to be in a part of the program. We then set up an account or there’s a savings account, we use that money to do the settlements and then we just rinse and repeat until all of the debt is gone. In comparison, there are other options. Some people try to do it themselves, but that can be very stressful. I don’t know if you’ve ever had a phone call from a collector. When I missed that furniture payment, I definitely got called about 12,000 times a day, and that can be really stressful. They’re not always nice, and their job is to collect money. So, they’re not necessarily there, again, in your best interest where National Debt Relief is. There is something called credit counseling where you’re still paying back the full balance. The interest rate may be lower, but it’s still a longer term plan and you’re still paying back more. If the goal is to get out of debt, debt settlement is, my opinion, the best option.
There’s also the option of taking out more debt. If there’s someone who still has credit worthiness who wants to take out a big loan to take care of all of that debt, they can do that. But what I’ve see is actually a lot of people that come into our program have tried that at one point and they got the money and they didn’t pay the debt. They paid to other things. Other things came up, so they use that money for other reasons. So, now they have that loan that was supposed to pay off the debt plus the debt that they didn’t pay off. So, those are the options.
And then the worst of the worst, I want to say is if you can avoid bankruptcy at all, do, and that’s what debt settlement, I like to say is the step before bankruptcy. And they’re going to be people that have to, but there’s also upfront costs when it comes to bankruptcy where with National Debt Relief there isn’t. We don’t charge a fee, of course until we actually do the work. Other options will actually charge a fee upfront, which can, depending on where someone is, be unaffordable.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. We talk about personal loans is a great solution for credit card debt, and the things I say is that this is a great solution for you if one, you really have tried to pay this off yourself and it’s not working, two, you have an emergency fund and three, you have a plan to pay this off because that’s what I was talking about before of if this is just a get out of jail free staples, that was easy button, I’ll put this off until later. That’s not the solution.
Natalia Brown:
It’s not.
Tori Dunlap:
But we’ve seen a lot of people actually in our community be able to… They have tons of credit card debt that compounds every day. They take out a personal loan at a fixed interest rate with simple interest. It’s not compounding every day and they actually feel like, “Okay, it’s manageable and I can pay it off.” But that’s why I have the big asterisk of you have to have a plan, you have to make this, again, an intentional conscious choice before you’re just like, “Okay, but it’s something else and it’ll give me some time.” It has to be always an intentional thing.
Natalia Brown:
And the other thing I always like to say, don’t incur more debt. So, once you get the personal loans and you pay it off, now be very intentional about what the debt is because that’s also a cycle that I see. You don’t necessarily want to take out personal loans every five years to cover the debt.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Really hard to dig yourself out of a hole when there’s sand slipping inside. So, when you’re talking about debt settlement, who is this for? Can you give me an example? Is it if you have $50,000 of debt? If you’ve been in debt for three years, who is the ideal persona for someone who needs to consider debt settlement?
Natalia Brown:
The ideal person, one would be someone who had an income change. They’re still working, but maybe they’re now a single household income. They were two and now they’re one. That can have an immediate impact on everyday finances, and all of a sudden when that money disappears, the debt that was being carried is now unaffordable where someone who’s just making minimums where you can’t afford to do much more than that. If you’re just paying minimums, it’s going to take decades to get rid of balances and even longer if you’re still charging on that card. So, that’s really our ideal client is someone who’s still working, but it is struggling to make those minimum payments who can’t see a way out of the debt that they’re carrying. The amount really doesn’t matter. Again, as long as it’s over $7,500, we will work with that person, figure out a plan that works for them and their debt load and then get them into a program that can be anywhere between 12 to 48 months actually, usually is how long it takes for us to resolve client’s debt.
Tori Dunlap:
What are the downsides of debt settlement? Are there negative repercussions?
Natalia Brown:
Yes, they are, and we’re super transparent about them. As far as debt and credit goes, there is a negative impact to someone’s credit score. A lot of our clients already have that impact because they’ve made some late payments, they’re carrying a high debt load already or they’re almost maxed out, things like that. I like to say our goal is to get you out of debt so you can rebuild your financial future. So, if the goal is getting out of debt, credit is not, in my opinion, the most important thing, right? You’re not going to buy a home if you’re carrying $50,000 in balances. You got to take care of the debt first. So, that’s the point of our program is we are very debt-focused. Rebuilding credit and things like that can happen afterwards, but really taking care of the debt first is what’s important.
Tori Dunlap:
When we talk about debt and anything related to money, obviously I have a whole book about this. We spend a good chunk of time on the show talking about it. The shame I think is so real, the shame of taking on debt, the shame that it got out of control potentially, the shame and anxiety and fear you have, especially if you’re at the point where collectors are calling you. What do you say to someone who is in that really sorrowful, shame spiral that it does not feel helpful anymore?
Natalia Brown:
To call us. 100%. We have… No, seriously, we have a really compassionate team. Sometimes you just need someone to listen. I mean, I’ve heard this many, many times, whether I was on the phone myself or I’ve heard recordings, when I’m doing audits and whatnot. Once someone has a plan, it’s almost like sunlight comes out, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, absolutely.
Natalia Brown:
The shame and that soulfulness comes from not seeing a way out. Once you can see a way out, then it’s like, “Okay, now I can put one in front the other. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I know which direction I’m going in.” And that builds so much confidence. And then you’re doing something about it. So, if you’re not doing something about it, yeah, that’s just going to sit in your chest. It’s not going to go anywhere. But once you start moving and doing, it’s like if you were a couch potato and you start moving, there’s like, “Oh, where’d all this energy come from?” That’s kind of what this is. It’s a matter of just having a plan. When it comes to other people and shaming others around debt because they’ve personally never experienced it, you could say that about a bunch of different things, but the reality is it’s you and a decision you have to make for yourself, or your family.
If you’re taking care of other people, what other people have to say about it isn’t necessarily important, but you do want to make sure that if you have the courage to do it, tell them, “This could happen to you. Do you have enough savings?” Because the average American only has about $400 in savings. So, the likelihood that something can happen to them and the support that they might need, again, everything is a conversation for me, depending on who that person is, of course, but have the conversation. There shouldn’t be shame around it.
Even for people who… I had a client once that I spoke to, one of her reasons for being in debt was she has a mental illness, she’s impulsive, and she did go on a shopping spree. She knew it was wrong, but she needed a dopamine hit, and that’s what happened, and she was so shameful about it. She had to go back and recover and get back on her mental health plan and all of those things, and then she was getting herself out of debt, and that’s what needed to be celebrated. It’s like you recognize that, you got back on your plan and now you’re doing something about it. So, there’s nothing to be ashamed of. There’s a million in one reasons why people go into that.
Tori Dunlap:
And I want to remind everybody listening that the financial content you consume does not have to be “tough love.” And I’m putting that in quotes because tough love is just abuse everybody, and I will call them out because I imagine you can’t, Dave Ramsey and Caleb Hammer and all these people who yell at you for being in debt, that’s not helpful. It just makes you feel shittier. It’s not actually… It’s not going to make you take action. It’s going to make you feel worse. And so, I love what you said first of before we go into plans, it’s just like having somebody to empathize with you, having somebody see you and understand the stress you’re in. I just realized that so much that money, again, is not about numbers, it’s about psychology, and it’s about being seen and feeling like, “Okay, somebody is helping me or taking care of me and not making me feel worse.” And that is such an important part of this.
Natalia Brown:
Yeah. And I think that’s what people fear. They fear that they’re going to judged. They fear that people are going to snicker or talk behind their backs, and I think that’s why a lot of people don’t talk about it because they’re more afraid of what the “neighbor” will say versus maybe the neighbor is a good person and is willing to help, but you will never know because of that fear. And I agree with you, I won’t say their names or repeat their names, but yeah, I have seen the yelling and the shouting, and sometimes I’ve seen people, “Oh, you idiot-
Tori Dunlap:
Name-calling.
Natalia Brown:
… you should have done this,” or whatever. And it’s just like, “Well, the name-calling is absolutely not necessary.” It’s taking out the fact that everyone has their own life experiences. They got to that place because of one reason or another, whether it was nurture, whether it was the environment that they grew up in, it was just a genuine mistake. We don’t need to-
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Lack of education. [inaudible 00:48:15]-
Natalia Brown:
Right. We don’t need to be yelled at for that. It’s more about what is the plan going to be? What’s happened has already happened. It can’t change. We can’t go back. We don’t have time machines. So, it’s really about taking care of the person and planning for that future.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. As we’re talking about debt or just the emotions of all of this, the word that keeps coming up for me is scarcity, and obviously listen to the whole episode, I think we have some really… You provided some really good information, but is there any last words you have about getting out of financial scarcity into you feeling confident and in control of your money?
Natalia Brown:
Yes. So, it is really the plan, right? So, where do you want to be? And being realistic about that. Wherever it is that you want to be in a realistic timeframe, then work backwards. You have the opportunity, take advantage of the skill set, I mentioned that before. We are all talented in multiple ways even when we don’t realize it. There’s someone that says, “Oh, you should sell that,” or, “You should do this.” Capitalize on that. Sometimes you might need to leave the job. You might need to find a different job. Sometimes you may need to go back to school. There are programs out there for people who are low income, whether it’s a certification or if it’s even just getting a scholarship, whatever it might be, that’s an opportunity as well for a lot of people in a lot of different places if you know where to look.
I tell my kids this all the time, “You can look at cat videos all day, but you have the entire world in your hand.” There is information in there that is good. There’s going to be some really trash information, but there are good reputable sources that you can go to. You can self-educate, you can start a business. Online commerce is huge. There are things that you can do to plan and have a passion behind as well to get out of scarcity. It is just a matter of what your talents are, what the job is going to be, what the plan is going to be. And I like to use Sundays. It’s either Sunday fun day or self-care Sunday, and I alternate between the two. And self-care Sunday is not just spa day and everything shower. It’s not just that. It’s also am on track with the plans that I’ve made for myself?
Tori Dunlap:
You’ve been reading my book. That’s literally what we talk about is self-care is not the bubble baths, it’s the hard shits.
Natalia Brown:
It’s not. It includes that, but it’s not just that, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Right. It’s the stuff that feels uncomfortable in the moment, but makes future you’s life better. Yeah, absolutely.
Natalia Brown:
Yes. That is the whole point of the day, is to not just make yourself feel good, but also make future self feel good with intention. So, I think that’s how you really get out of scarcity is one… Also, part of it is mental health, right? Is are you in a place to actually plan? Are there traumas that you need to heal? Do you need therapy? I think that’s something that a lot of people shy away from too. Debt is stressful. People get divorced over it. We did a survey, over half of people are divorced because of debt issues, and that comes with a whole host of family dynamics that all of those things come into play. So, when you do Sunday fun day, self-care Sunday, and you’re in scarcity, just make sure that the plan includes the whole person. We like to say whole human finance. You are a whole person. You have different aspects. Are you addressing each aspect? Because it all flows into the quality of your life.
Tori Dunlap:
Shame is bullshit, we know that. And I’m so glad there are other women out here like Natalia disrupting this narrative. Remember, you don’t need to be screamed at in order to make change effective. We actually recently talked about this on our episode with Dr. Martha Beck if you’re looking for more resources on how to work through trauma, anxiety, and financial scarcity. When we come back from break, we’re rounding out our conversation with Natalia by talking about how she’s preparing the next generation to be financially confident. And I tell a story about my own financial education growing up that I’ve actually never shared on the podcast. We appreciate you supporting our sponsors that make the show free. Stay tuned.
My last question for you, and you mentioned your kids, we don’t want the next generation to have to deal with this kind of shame. So, you have two boys.
Natalia Brown:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Can we talk about what sort of discussions about money are you having with them? Do they come to you with questions? If you have children or you have nieces and nephews, or you’re close with your friend’s children, how can you have conversations with them about money so that we don’t perpetuate the cycle of shame?
Natalia Brown:
So, my nieces actually laugh because she’s like, “Oh, here goes Auntie Nat,” because…
Tori Dunlap:
They’re like, “Oh, boy, give her the soapbox. Here we go.”
Natalia Brown:
“We’re going to get another lecture.” She’s 22 and she’s just gotten her first job. She’s just gotten her first apartment. So, now we’re talking about, “Well, what does it look like in five years?” She’s like, “Oh, I haven’t even thought about that yet.” And I’m like, “Well, we’re going to talk about it.” With our kids, what we talk about is… Well, when they were young, we did savings and we had fake money. So, chores, you got fake money and then you can turn in that fake money at the end of the week for whatever prize. And that’s how we kind of started one, learning what dimes and nickels were, and then also what spending is. And then as they got older, they got actual savings accounts where they got debit cards, and if they wanted things from the store, it’s like, “Well, that’s going to cost this. And you have an app on your phone that tells you how much it’s in there. Is that what you really want to do? Because if you spend that money, you have no more money. You can’t ask me for any more money.”
So, those were hard lessons at times because the first couple of times they’re like, “Oh, mom’s just going to give me another 20 bucks.” No, I’m not. And I stuck to that. And then my oldest one now has a credit card. We’ve had some challenges in overspending and not necessarily paying attention, but those are lessons that we need to learn early before he’s out on his own. So, savings, we talk about investing. One summer, actually two summers, we did a fake investing profile. There’s lots of things online where you can give them a certain amount of money. We had a family competition of like who can make the most money over the summer in this fake trading environment? So, we do different things and try to make it as fun as possible so that it’s not, “Oh, here’s another boring lesson,” kind of thing, because they need to be engaged. But also just being really practical about this is what you’re going to have to do in life to be successful. And I don’t shy away from what our assets are.
This is what we have, this is what it should be, all age-appropriate, of course, but talk about it when you go to the supermarket, I’m not getting that because it’s not on sale. Look at the ounces to the price for this brand versus this brand. Have all of those conversations in real time. And yeah, they’ve picked up on a lot of it. So, I’m actually really proud of them now because they’re very much like, “Oh, that’s way too expensive and I don’t think that makes sense. Maybe I’ll get the off, off brand of whatever it is. Because they’re like, “Well, I want this PlayStation controller that I’m saving for, so I need to spend less over here.” So, they start making those decisions and those trade-offs on their own.
Tori Dunlap:
And just when I think I’ve told every single story on the podcast, you just sparked something for me. I talked a lot about financial education I received from my parents. And one thing I completely forgot my mom taught me until you just said it was I remember being in the grocery store with her, probably middle school or high school, and I would help her and I’d be like, “Well, this one’s cheaper.” I’d look at the price and she goes, “We’re not looking at the price. We’re looking at the little small price that says how many ounces? How much cents is this per ounce, or whatever.” And I still… Oh, my gosh, that blew my mind when I first saw it.
And so, when I’m in Costco and I’m at Safeway, whenever I’m grocery shopping, that’s always what I’m looking for. And that’s so funny. You just brought that up. I completely forgot she taught that to me. It’s not really about these sticker prices about-
Natalia Brown:
Yeah, it makes a huge differences.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, it’s about… Especially with inflation right now, a lot of the packages are getting smaller, but the price is staying the same. So, when I’m looking at two olive oils, I’m not looking at the price, I’m looking at like, okay, what is the cost per ounce?
Natalia Brown:
How much did these ounce cost you, right? So, yeah, look at that granular level, and I think that’s a great tip as well for anyone who’s, especially now with inflation and shopping, look at how… Especially for things that you use all the time, right? If it’s cereal or whatever it is, make the decision based on the cost per ounce, not the overall cost. And I know that might be difficult sometimes, but you actually are saving more money if you’re getting the 48 ounce box over the 24 ounce box because each ounce actually costs you less.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much for your expertise. Thank you for your work. I have no doubt that this episode is going to be so valuable for people. It’s going to be shared among people. Like if you have debt, if you know somebody who’s struggling with debt, somebody’s struggling with financial scarcity, this is a great episode to send to them. So, plug away my friend. Where can people find out more about you and your incredible organization?
Natalia Brown:
So, we’re at nationaldebtrelief.com, and all you need to do is fill out a little form and we’ll actually call you or give us a phone call at (800) 300-9550.
Tori Dunlap:
Amazing. Thank you so much.
Natalia Brown:
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you to Natalia for being here. You can learn more about her work through the National Debt Relief. She does some incredible work around getting people out of debt, helping them pay it off, and we appreciate her expertise. Thank you as always for supporting the show. Thank you for sharing this episode with somebody who you know is struggling with debt or might need it. Thank you for being a resource to them, and thank you for supporting feminist media, especially right now. We appreciate you subscribing and leaving a review and sharing the show. We’ll see you back here very soon. Bye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K Podcast. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Research by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Daryl Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Meghan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
