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You might think you know the financial cost of transitioning…
but what you’ll hear in this episode will completely reframe how you think about money, identity, and survival.
In this episode, I spoke with Ash Perez –– Cuban-Korean-Filipino writer, director, producer, and openly trans man who’s sharing what it really takes to live authentically in a world that often doesn’t make room for that authenticity. From top surgery and hormone therapy to lost job opportunities and acne treatments during a second puberty, Ash gets incredibly honest about the hidden, ongoing expenses of transitioning—and why we need to start thinking about them as necessary, not excessive.
This is one of the most candid and enlightening conversations we’ve ever had on the show. Ash walks us through not only his journey through gender discovery, divorce, grief, and systemic hoops—but also what cisgender allies often get wrong when trying to support trans folks. If you care about queer communities, want to be a better ally, or are just ready to expand your perspective on what financial security and self-acceptance really look like, tune in.
Key takeaways:
The financial cost of being trans is high—and often unavoidable.
Ash outlines a long list of gender-affirming expenses including therapy, top surgery, hormone treatments, wardrobe changes, ID/document updates, and recovery-related costs like scar care and compression garments. Even with insurance, these can total $15K–$30K, especially when considering unpaid time off and emotional tolls.
Trans people pay in more than just dollars.
Beyond financials, Ash speaks to the emotional and social costs—like the grief of letting go of a former identity, the trauma of a marriage ending mid-transition, and the isolation of going through sacred, adult puberty largely alone.
Being visibly trans can limit access to safety, jobs, and housing.
Ash emphasizes that safety often means paying more to live in affirming cities, fly to competent doctors, or take private Ubers instead of public transit. These added expenses aren’t luxuries—they’re survival costs.
The process of transitioning is rarely linear—and often lonely.
Ash’s story shows that coming out isn’t a single moment. It’s an evolving path filled with hesitation, slow shifts, and internal questioning. He also names the lack of guidance and companionship during the process as one of the hardest parts.
Sometimes, going into debt is part of choosing yourself.
Ash shares how he had to put surgery and therapy on credit cards—not because he was careless with money, but because waiting would’ve meant deeper suffering. This episode powerfully reframes debt as a tool for survival and self-affirmation, not just a financial “mistake.”
Transitioning can also come with new privileges—and that’s complex.
Ash reflects on the surprising benefits he now receives as a man—less scrutiny, more safety, and permission to “take up space”—while also acknowledging the harsh realities trans women still face, especially around visibility and violence.
Notable quotes
“You have to pay a price in blood, in energy, in time, and money in order to be yourself.”
“People hate trans people right now. So being trans visibly, I hope, helps other trans people—and cis people who just don’t know.”
“The cost of me not getting this surgery? That was my mental health—and that’s a cost too.”
Episode-at-a-glance
≫ 02:41 Ash’s Early Life and Realization of Gender Identity
≫ 04:21 Navigating Transition and Relationships
≫ 11:07 Healthcare and Insurance Challenges
≫ 16:05 Financial and Emotional Costs of Transition
≫ 29:26 Puberty and Physical Changes
≫ 32:21 Navigating Gender Dynamics and Privilege
≫ 39:56 The Emotional Toll of Isolation
≫ 42:26 Understanding Gender Dysphoria
≫ 50:46 Supporting Trans and Queer Friends
≫ 54:58 Navigating Misgendering and Deadnaming
≫ 58:00 The Try Guys Experience
≫ 01:10:49 Advice for Those Questioning Their Gender Identity
Ash’s Links:
Website: https://www.2ndtry.tv/
Substack: https://substack.com/@itsashlyperez
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Meet Ash
Ash Perez (he/they) is a writer, director, author, and producer. A queer first-generation Cuban, Korean, and Filipino American himself, Ash is focused on telling underrepresented stories in every genre. He has written for ABC’s “HOME ECONOMICS” and Freeform’s “GOOD TROUBLE.” In 2020, he served as a Senior Producer on the Biden/Harris campaign, where he co-directed and co-produced “Michelle Obama’s Closing Argument.”
Most recently he created “New Guy Tries” for 2nd Try TV which follows his exploration of manhood as a newly-transitioned man. In 2026, he is releasing an audio original rom-com, “Speak Now” with Simon & Schuster. On the non-fiction side he also has a book, “Read This For Inspiration” published with Clarkson Potter.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
You would not believe how much this trans filmmaker spent on gender-affirming care. And some of what he spent the money on will shock you. This is a conversation about being transgender that you’ve never heard before and what you’re getting wrong as a queer ally. Let’s get into it. Ash Perez is a writer, director, author, and producer.
Ash Perez:
The truth is, does it make you happy to do this even if it’s outside of what you’ve traditionally been told that men, or women, or non-binary people are supposed to do or look like? Then do that, and eventually, you land where you’re supposed to be
Tori Dunlap:
A first-generation Cuban Korean and Filipino-American himself, Ash is focused on telling underrepresented stories in every genre. He has written for ABC’s Home Economics and Freeform’s Good Trouble. And most recently, he created New Guy Tries for Second Try TV, which follows his exploration of manhood as a newly transitioned man.
Ash Perez:
We know how hard it is to even be where we are, and so I don’t know any marginalized person who doesn’t turn around and give back. And yet, how many billionaires don’t give any money, donate any money, don’t give a shit?
Tori Dunlap:
We’re talking with Ash today about the cost of being trans, from his healthcare to surprising costs he never expected, both financially and otherwise. We talked about Ash’s life before and after transition, and it’s one of the most honest, vulnerable accounts of being transgender and gay awakening that I’ve ever encountered.
Ash Perez:
I think I grew up with a lot of judgment because of how I was raised, too, for women who got surgery or women who wanted to wear more makeup because we also make things harder for each other too.
Tori Dunlap:
He also talks about navigating life, going through a sacred puberty, and his new guy-ness with friends and family.
Ash Perez:
It’s hard enough to be a woman, but there’s a right way to be a woman or a right way to be a man. And now, including with cis people, if it makes you happy, more power to you.
Tori Dunlap:
This is one of the most interesting episodes we’ve ever done on the show. And if you have a lot of questions about someone who’s transgender about how to both support them, but also what to do if you script their pronouns or don’t know how to support them best, this is an episode that feels so incredibly kind and vulnerable, but also so life-affirming too. I’m so grateful for Ash for sharing his experience transitioning, and I think this is one of the best episodes we’ve ever done on the show. Let’s get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors.
Ash, can you tell me who you are, what you do, and why it’s so important?
Ash Perez:
Oh, yes. My name is Ash Perez. I am a writer of all mediums, a comedian, I guess, and it’s important because, well, it makes me happy and because people hate trans people right now. And so, being trans visibly, I hope, helps other trans people and also other cis people who just don’t know about trans people.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. We like to ask people on our show uniquely if there’s a first time you remember thinking about money.
Ash Perez:
Oh. Yes, it was about allowance. I remember that my cousins got this cool little file folder thing for their allowance, and it was divided into specifically things to save and things to … and I was like, “We should have that.” But my parents were like, “No.” And I remember thinking that would’ve been helpful, and now, looking back at it, I think that’s where all my money problems started.
Tori Dunlap:
So that’s why we like asking the question because, actually, your first money memory says a lot, typically-
Ash Perez:
Yeah, that’s interesting.
Tori Dunlap:
… about how you manage money. But I love that the money memory is not so much about the money but the organization of the money.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, which I think also was a clue that I had ADHD and had a feeling that I was going to need organizational help with things.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. But I love that you saw the file folder, and you’re like, “That’s the shit that I need.”
Ash Perez:
I was like, “That looks good.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. The money inside not so much, but I need the folders. I need an Office Depot trip immediately.
Ash Perez:
Well, it just made it seem so much more professional.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, totally.
Ash Perez:
Keep your allowance in a folio.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, yeah. Then it’s like income.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, that’s what it felt like.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m a big boy. Yeah, I got it.
Ash Perez:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. You mentioned that you didn’t come to “I’m Trans” immediately. Can we talk about that process of discovering that for yourself?
Ash Perez:
Yeah. You know what? It’s weird because I knew I was gay immediately, although now I guess straight for the most part.
Tori Dunlap:
I was actually going to ask you if your gender preference has changed.
Ash Perez:
Well, now, at first, just by principle, I was bisexual, but 95% women and 5% men, and now, on principle, that 5% is very important to me because I just don’t want to be a straight man. But even more, the more testosterone I take, the more men look better to me.
Tori Dunlap:
Interesting.
Ash Perez:
And that happens to a lot of trans guys. I think the reason that cis guys are so obsessed with the no homo thing is because they’re actually a little bit homo.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, as the Lonely Island no homo, right?
Ash Perez:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But yeah, I always knew I was gay. I always knew I liked women. And when someone’s like, “Oh, do you have a…” Because people are weird and ask little kids, “Do you have a crush on any little boys or whatever?” And I was like, “No.”
Tori Dunlap:
They pick their noses. They’re disgusting.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, exactly. But I was like, “No, I did like girls, but I knew that that wasn’t supposed to be an answer.” But what’s funny is I used to have dreams when I was a kid that I had a crush on a girl, and then I would be found out that … in the dream, I was a boy, and I would be found out that I was a girl. But the only way I could process that because trans-ness was just not on my radar at all, was I guess I’m a boy in my dreams because boys are allowed to like girls. And so, I was like, “Oh.” So, I actually think I’ve known a lot longer. And I have a trans sibling who came out four years before me, and I still was like, “Nope, I’m not trans.” But I was-
Tori Dunlap:
That’s great for you.
Ash Perez:
Yes, exactly. And I was always … but then looking back, there’s so many things. I mean, just my obsession with Mulan and my obsession with-
Tori Dunlap:
I get it.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, so many things that I’m like, “Oh, those were all signs, and I just didn’t know how to read them.” Because I knew gay was a thing, but I didn’t know trans was a thing.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and especially in a culture that demonizes that, or it’s not socially acceptable.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, and I was super Christian growing up.
Tori Dunlap:
Me too.
Ash Perez:
I was raised super Christian, and so it was bad enough to be gay. I was like … but then-
Tori Dunlap:
That’s enough to reckon with.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, exactly. And I remember there were all these … MTV used to do these documentaries just about all sorts of shit, but one of them was about transgender people. And I remember being obsessed with that documentary and just thinking it was so interesting. Now I’m like, “Oh, I get it.”
Tori Dunlap:
You felt seen. What was that coming out process for you, especially if you had a sibling who was-
Ash Perez:
Who had already come out?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Ash Perez:
I mean, the funny thing is it was coming out again. It felt dramatic. I was coming out for a second time is just a funny kind of concept. But I think for me-
Tori Dunlap:
Was there any shame that you had to do it again?
Ash Perez:
A little bit, and then a little bit, I was just over it. More than anything, in my second coming out, it was partially a little bit traumatic. I was married at the time, and I had told my ex-wife about the gender journey that I was starting to feel like I was going on. She knew I was going to a gender therapist. But then, when push came to shove and I came out and said, “I think I’m a man,” it caused some issues. And so, it was a little bit more traumatic, actually, than my first coming out.
Tori Dunlap:
It caused issues in your relationship?
Ash Perez:
Yeah, in our relationship, and then also just … yeah, in our relationship. It wasn’t-
Tori Dunlap:
I imagine on both sides, that’s a lot of-
Ash Perez:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s just an interesting identity shift for you and then for your partner.
Ash Perez:
Yes. For most trans people, that tends to be an issue. And the bigger thing is, it’s more of just an issue. I don’t think my divorce was a result of my transition. I just think that transitioning is such a big thing that it often exposes issues that were already present.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Ash Perez:
But transitioning was interesting, and it was also such a slow, amalgamous process, even for myself because I, at first, was like, “I’m going to go by any pronouns, like the Jonathan Van Ness thing,” and then was a little bit maybe he/they. And now I still go by he/they pronouns, but I was very unsure of where I wanted to land, and so the coming out of it didn’t seem … there wasn’t the same kind of goalpost. And I slowly started cutting my hair. You social transition. And it was COVID, so I wasn’t even around people, which was nice. I think it was a lot nicer to not have to show up the next day somewhere and be like, “Hey, I’m a completely different person.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right. And your dad had died too around that time, right?
Ash Perez:
Yes. My dying was part of the reason that I came out in that I realized I was so tied to the idea of being daddy’s girl. It was such a special thing to me that I don’t think I realized how much I didn’t want to disappoint my dad, and I wanted to stay daddy’s girl. And so, when my dad died, I felt this enormous desire to cut my hair that I thought was about grief, and it ended up being like a trans-ness.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s like the get bangs version?
Ash Perez:
Yeah, exactly, the get bangs version of grief.
Tori Dunlap:
And you’re like, “No, it’s not a bangs. It’s a-
Ash Perez:
It’s a trans.
Tori Dunlap:
… gender identity thing.” Yeah.
Ash Perez:
That’s so funny. It’s so true.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s not a bangs. It’s a trans thing.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, it is.
Tori Dunlap:
Where’s that T-shirt? I think, yeah, with the coming out thing, it’s often … You’re right. It does have to feel like, “Oh, I have it all figured out now,” before I can do this, and there’s a weird amount of pressure as opposed to just, I don’t know, I’m figuring it out. And we might not get to a point where it 100% feels like a right moment.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. I think the pressure is also, some of it’s internalized and then externalized as you make those bigger steps of, okay, cutting my hair. People are going to start to ask what’s going on because I was a sorority girl before. I’d had hair down below my boobs, and the boobs wasn’t even a thing that I was even remotely starting to tackle yet, even though that was, I think, the first thing that I knew-
Tori Dunlap:
Had to go?
Ash Perez:
Yeah, I did definitively. I actually got top surgery before I started hormones, which is pretty rare, but I was so sure that I didn’t want boobs. I wasn’t sure I wanted all the other changes, but I was like, “I know I don’t want boobs.”
Tori Dunlap:
Interesting.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I didn’t realize that, typically, there’s a schedule.
Ash Perez:
I mean, some of the stuff that sucks about being trans is that they’ve established all these medical guidelines, and a lot of them-
Tori Dunlap:
Is it for your health or-
Ash Perez:
No. A lot of it is for hoops for insurance.
Tori Dunlap:
Of course.
Ash Perez:
Literally.
Tori Dunlap:
Because we live in America.
Ash Perez:
Well, and you have to get these letters literally saying that you have gender dysphoria, but also that … You basically have to say that you have a mental illness in order … and have to have-
Tori Dunlap:
In order to get taken seriously.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, and have to get a psychiatrist to sign off. Whereas, if I was a cis woman and I wanted size double G boobs right now, all I would need is the money. I don’t have to have anybody tell me anything about what I can or can’t do with my body. But if I-
Tori Dunlap:
As someone who has double G boobs, Ash, it’s not worth it. It’s not worth it.
Ash Perez:
But that, I think, is the crazy part of another tax or unknown thing about being trans is just the hoops that you have to go through.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, let’s go there.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, we come out. We realize that this is for us. What then is … so, the health insurance hoops, most definitely. I know even for me, I’ve looked into breast reduction surgery, and oh, my God. One, it’s very rarely covered by insurance. Two, it’s-
Ash Perez:
Which is crazy. Unless you have to get a chiropractor and everybody to say that it’s causing-
Tori Dunlap:
But even sometimes, then, it’s not.
Ash Perez:
Really?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, because you have to prove that it’s-
Ash Perez:
Causing active pain?
Tori Dunlap:
… definitively, And I’m like, “Look. Look at me. I’m like this all the time.” So yeah, you have to prove that. And then the actual downtime because it’s a full surgery, so let’s talk maybe, yes, about the insurance hoops.
Ash Perez:
Not surgery.
Tori Dunlap:
And then, is it covered? Yeah, what happens?
Ash Perez:
I have a lot of privilege being a trans person who is insured and has good insurance through WGA. But for the average trans person, we’re talking about the most privileged version, and it’s still complete shit. But even to that end, I had surgery that would’ve been 90% covered if I had gone through UCLA, which is my provider, basically.
Tori Dunlap:
90%? That’s huge.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, it’s a lot. I had a $400 deductible, and then I would’ve had … I think it was maybe 80 or 90%. A lot. My insurance is really good.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s great.
Ash Perez:
But the other part is considering I went in to get the consultation, and it was so … You just go to a plastic surgeon who’s mainly dealing with breasts for cis women, and that is not their specialty, working with trans people. And I got misgendered, and I got just no treatment. It was the fastest consultation, and this is the biggest decision of your life. And I was like, “I can’t go to this person to make one of the biggest decisions of my life about my body that’s permanent.” And so I actually found another doctor who specializes in top surgery. They’re based out of New York, but they have an LA office too. And I ended up paying $5,000 out of pocket where I wouldn’t have had to just because-
Tori Dunlap:
You wanted to be seen.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, I wanted to be safe. I wanted to be seen. I wanted to make sure that somebody cared as much as I did because there are major differences between … even though it’s a double mastectomy, there’s a big difference between what you’re actually getting done. This doctor actually had a technique where you didn’t have to have drainage bags, which is a big, painful thing. And he did liposuction to make the contouring more immediate. And that was a decision that I had to put that on a credit card because I wasn’t in a position, wasn’t expecting it to be $5,000, but it was like, “Okay, what is actually going to be more important for me and my mental health?” Which I know is really big on your podcast and in the whole ecosystem, which I think is great because so many people don’t consider, when thinking about money, about the cost of your mental health.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and it’s a decision that, you’re so right, you’re making for the rest of your life.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You want to feel good in your body. And the last thing you want is a botched surgery. That’s why that’s one of the many reasons I have not gotten … and again, I’m trying to … it’s not comparable, but this is my lived experience as a cis woman. I am freaked out because it’s a full surgery, and-
Ash Perez:
And there’s still all the complicate-
Tori Dunlap:
… they move your nipple-
Ash Perez:
They do.
Tori Dunlap:
… which is crazy to me.
Ash Perez:
Oh, yeah. I would say I got the surgery where they shaved down and moved my nipple. You don’t actually need nipples because, a lot of times, the sensation isn’t there anyway. If I could do it again, I would just not have gotten nipples, and I would’ve gotten the tattoos.
Tori Dunlap:
Really?
Ash Perez:
Yeah. So, I think for cis women too, that’s something to consider.
Tori Dunlap:
I like my nipples. I don’t want to get rid of them.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s a big thing. So, when we’re talking about $5,000 out of pocket, again, you’re talking definitely from a privileged position of having insurance.
Ash Perez:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
But also, can we talk about if you are trans and you’re not able to financially afford the either surgeries or the haircuts, or just to feel like you are representing the gender identity that is you, what’s going on there?
Ash Perez:
Well, even up to that point, having a binder is an expensive thing because if you don’t do it correctly and you just use an ACE bandage, you can cause permanent damage.
Tori Dunlap:
Really?
Ash Perez:
Yes. And affect your future surgeries. A lot of people who are trans are binding longer than they should be because of the gender dysphoria, but actually, you can have an inverse effect on when you’re later able to get surgery. The skin is too stretchy, and so it can negatively affect you. So, there’s always a cost to everything. It makes me think so much about beginning economics of opportunity cost of all this. What is the cost of me getting the surgery and putting this on a credit card? What is the cost of me not getting this surgery mentally? And if it becomes something, I think there’s a point in transition where once you have come to terms with yourself and are ready to do this, it becomes this thing that is occupying the forefront of your brain, which you can’t work the same way that you could. You’re constantly thinking about this one issue, and that’s a cost too, to your ability to earn money or your ability to just function. So, outside of that, I was just …. I’ll go through some of these, and we can talk about any or all of them.
Tori Dunlap:
Also, I love you’ve done your homework. This is fantastic.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. I was like, “Oh, cost of being trans.” And I was just thinking, “Oh, we’ll talk about my top surgery.” And then I was like, “No-“
Tori Dunlap:
It’s more than that.
Ash Perez:
There’s so much more to it.
Tori Dunlap:
When we come back from this word with our sponsors, Ash is walking us through all of the costs he incurred during his transition. He literally wrote them out on the notes app of his phone, as well as the surprising costs he wasn’t prepared for, and what transitioning might look like if you don’t have the financial support or resources. We’ll be right back.
Ash Perez:
So, therapy, gender therapy specifically, once I realized … I had been with my therapist for 10 years. She’s amazing. We had done some great stuff together. And then I realized, and she did too, “Hey, I think I’m a little out of my depth for the-“
Tori Dunlap:
My depth.
Ash Perez:
… for the gender therapy stuff.” And I found this amazing doctor, Doctor Z, who I had watched her YouTube videos. But if you’re seeing someone who’s on YouTube and doing well, it’s because they’re very expensive to do.
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely.
Ash Perez:
Most of the time, they don’t even take private clients. So I was paying, I think, 350 out of pocket for that for one session.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, boy.
Ash Perez:
And it was one of those things where it’s like, “Is this worth it? Holy shit!” And I was able to get some of that comped back, but your insurance will only pay up to a certain amount, and they pay 60% of that.
Tori Dunlap:
Are they in network? Yeah.
Ash Perez:
Exactly. And a lot of this isn’t in network, so therapy, gender therapy, top surgery. I had my eggs frozen because-
Tori Dunlap:
Is this before?
Ash Perez:
I didn’t do it before. I did it afterward, which is not as advised, but is still … I mean, there’s just not really many studies about this.
Tori Dunlap:
Was this before taking hormones because you-
Ash Perez:
No, I did it after taking hormones. So you can-
Tori Dunlap:
This is my naivete. Is that possible?
Ash Perez:
Yes, you can.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Ash Perez:
There aren’t many studies. I had been a little less than a year on testosterone. You have to stop the testosterone in order to start ovulating again.
Tori Dunlap:
Makes sense.
Ash Perez:
And then, they don’t have … I mean, there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence, but not a big enough scientific study, but plenty of trans people, especially F to M trans people, have been on testosterone for much longer than I were, gotten their eggs, and actually even been able to carry their children. So, that’s another thing. But even trying to make that decision, I was really lucky. I found a resource. I can’t remember it now. It’s a resource that cis women use too that educates you on IVF. Luckily, they had decided to make free a course for trans people because that’s another access issue.
And so, I was actually able to take a course from a trans person that was free that normally would be three, $400, so that’s another thing that I think … A lot of people who asked me, how can I help trans people right now, in more ways than you think, your business may also be able to offer a service to trans people that is just, can this for free? Can you find some way to help lower the barriers to entry that trans people have? And it might not seem something that’s trans-specific, but if trans people are spending thousands of dollars just to be themselves, then I love places that are like, “Oh, for our comedy venue for people of color or trans people, there’s a 10% discount.” Anything helps, even though it’s not directly tied to that, egg freezing, my cost of testosterone, going to an endocrinologist-
Tori Dunlap:
How much was T?
Ash Perez:
T for me is about $20 a month.
Tori Dunlap:
Is it-
Ash Perez:
No, it’s this big. It’s the smallest vial ever.
Tori Dunlap:
No.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Something’s bigger than that.
Ash Perez:
I know. And you need the needles. And also, there’s ways. Again, I found out later that you can go, at least through my insurance, if you use delivery pharmacy versus in-person, you can save money, and they can give you ninety-day supplies. So, I did that now, and it’s significantly lowered my cost.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s like the GoodRx version of testosterone.
Ash Perez:
Literally. Literally. Testosterone, getting a hysterectomy … I’m planning on getting a hysterectomy, but right now, because of WGA stuff, my insurance might be up in June. And so I don’t want to get a hysterectomy, even though I could afford it. But even still, with my insurance, I just got quoted it would still be $1,000 for that.
Tori Dunlap:
Which is not cheap.
Ash Perez:
It’s not cheap. Hysterectomy, that’s $1,000. And then the cost, again, of taking off work, having someone take care of you … luckily, I have-
Tori Dunlap:
You’re not earning money during that time.
Ash Perez:
No. Yeah, and you can’t. And for top surgery-
Tori Dunlap:
And what if you don’t have PTO?
Ash Perez:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
What if you don’t have … yeah.
Ash Perez:
For top surgery, it’s a lot easier to recover from than a hysterectomy. A hysterectomy is more intense. They’re removing organs versus fat. So, that was another thing. Then, I had just finding community camps paying for … there’s amazing resources for trans people, but you pay for those spaces, going to these things, changing my documents pre-Trump, I immediately realized, “Holy shit, I need to change everything.” And I was really lucky that I was able to, but there was $500 like that just in all the fees, expediting.
Tori Dunlap:
Right, your passport.
Ash Perez:
Yep. And I didn’t have an option. It was just like I have to do this right now. Getting global entry, things that are like, “Okay, if I have this, that will make it probably easier to not be questioned as much.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Yep.
Ash Perez:
Yep, nipple tattooing, scar treatment, acne treatment. I’m going through fucking puberty again.
Tori Dunlap:
I’ll ask you about it.
Ash Perez:
The amount of money I have spent on Hero Cosmetics on the little pimple patches.
Tori Dunlap:
I saw you were like, “Oh, they sell them at Costco now.”
Ash Perez:
I was literally like, “When is Costco going to help a guy out?” Because those are expensive as fuck.
Tori Dunlap:
They are expensive.
Ash Perez:
And I found out recently that you can just get hydrocolloidal patches and cut them yourself. But the amount that I’ve spent just now on acne care that I thought I was fucking done with has been monstrous. I get cystic acne now, and I’ve had to get cystic acne removed. And again, all of that, I have pretty decent healthcare. But what if I don’t have healthcare? Or what if I can only afford the cheapest healthcare? It’s not going to cover any of that shit. A whole new wardrobe, gender-affirming … you’re slowly changing your style, but then you’re also just changing your … the first is changing your style. And then, on testosterone, I’m literally growing. I’m more muscular.
Tori Dunlap:
Your clothes don’t fit the same way anymore.
Ash Perez:
My clothes do not fit me. The other day, I put on something. I went to the track to shoot something, and I just brought an outfit that I thought that I’ve worn so many times.
Tori Dunlap:
The amount of times I’ve brought an outfit, and it doesn’t fit me anymore, and I’m like, “Fuck!”
Ash Perez:
I was like, “Oh, shit. I need to try things on.” But it was good.
Tori Dunlap:
New Guy Tries Things on.
Ash Perez:
Yes, new guy tries outfits. Divorce, which I don’t know if that’s 100% part of it, but it’s built into that. And then gym and making sure that now that I have this body that I want, trying to keep myself healthy, keep myself active. And you know how much protein you have to eat?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Ash Perez:
We’re constant, and that’s expensive stuff, supplements all of that. And again, you don’t have to do that, but it’s gender affirmation. And so, when you’re really thinking about all the costs that go into it, and not just for a trans man. I was also thinking the other types of surgery. You can have facial feminization surgery. You could have jaw surgery, lipo. Paying for safer housing or public transport, do you take public transport if you know it’s going to be less safe for you? Or do you spend extra money to get a private Uber versus an Uber pool? These are all things that you have to think about.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s one of the things I talk about in my book of the cost that we don’t think about for women, for queer people. You live in Los Angeles where you are not completely safe, but you’re safer.
Ash Perez:
What if you’re in Kentucky?
Tori Dunlap:
It’s cheaper there, but at what cost to your mental health, your physical health, your safety?
Ash Perez:
And by the way, if you’re trans in Kentucky, you probably don’t have the doctors that I have access to.
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely not. Nope.
Ash Perez:
So, you’re going to fly for surgery. I was lucky that I didn’t have to fly for surgery. I would say probably over 50% of trans people have to fly to get the care that they need.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Well, I just think about what cities are you living in? What neighborhoods are you living in? We-Ho or Capitol Hill in Seattle, where I’m from, that’s the gay neighborhood. That’s a very expensive part of town to have an apartment, to own a house. `
Ash Perez:
Yes, because gays have culture, and so it’s more expensive.
Tori Dunlap:
Right, right.
Ash Perez:
But the problem is, too, I even thought about, “Oh, I would like to move somewhere that’s cheaper, but it’s not going to be safe for me.” So the coasts and these big cities are the safest place for me, but the cost of-
Tori Dunlap:
Where rent 2,500 easy.
Ash Perez:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep.
Ash Perez:
But the cost of living is so much higher, and so that’s something for queer people that they have to think about a lot that I think other people don’t realize. Oh, that’s part of the cost too.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s the thing we talk about for women. the amount of finance dudes who are like, “We’ll just bike home.” And I’m like, “Four or five months out of the year, it gets dark at 5:00, 5:30. You want me to bike home?”
Ash Perez:
Yeah, yeah. No.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, that saves money. But if you’re a cis-gendered straight white dude, fine. But that doesn’t make sense for the rest of us.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, no, it really doesn’t. And those are all the things that even me having lived through this, once I added it up, I was like, “Oh, there’s a lot more to this.”
Tori Dunlap:
It’s a lot of stuff.
Ash Perez:
Lost job opportunities, and then also-
Tori Dunlap:
I was going to ask you about that.
Ash Perez:
… hair removal and stuff. So, it ranges the whole gamut from normal cosmetic things that everybody has to think about, and it’s just a little bit different because of gender affirmation to, am I not getting this job because I’m trans?
Tori Dunlap:
Right. If we had to put a dollar amount on it, what are we at now?
Ash Perez:
For lost job opportunities?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, just all of it.
Ash Perez:
Oh, for all? God-
Tori Dunlap:
15K?
Ash Perez:
Oh, more than that.
Tori Dunlap:
More than that?
Ash Perez:
Probably. Well, on the low end, probably 15K. On the higher end, 30K.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, if you go through with the hysterectomy too.
Ash Perez:
Yes. And then, again, it’s not just what you’re spending. It’s what you’re not earning when you’re taking care of yourself, when you’re going through all of this stuff, when you’re having to relearn to eat, or even just literally the acne stuff adds up so quickly. I could wash my face with water before because I had already gone through puberty, and now I’m adding salicylic acid. I’m back to being a skincare girlie.
Tori Dunlap:
The Proactive?
Ash Perez:
Yeah, and I’m like, “Should I get Accutane?” And it’s so expensive because just per month, those things add up so quickly. So, it’s little things that you’re like, “Oh, that might not be adding that much.”
Tori Dunlap:
It does.
Ash Perez:
It could add $2,000 a year.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and you also work in entertainment. And so-
Ash Perez:
Yeah, I have to have … that’s part of my job.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. And so you think … somebody listening, I don’t think any of our listeners, but it’s easy to go, “Well, not all of this is necessary.” And first of all, yes, it is to feel good in your body, but second of all, yeah, if your body, your face is-
Ash Perez:
Part of your job.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, your product, you have to feel, “Okay, I have clothes that look good on camera and that fit my gender identity.” Yeah. Let’s talk about the puberty thing because I think that’s the most fascinating thing that, again, I wouldn’t have thought about. But watching Mew Guy Tries and then following you, it’s like, “Oh, yeah, you are like a twelve-year-old boy.”
Ash Perez:
I am. I literally am a twelve-year-old boy. Also, just the amount of food I’m eating is double.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s crazy. You’re probably gaining weight, but not like-
Ash Perez:
Yes, I’m gaining weight, and I’m gaining muscle. But then the craziest thing is … I mean, there are advantages and disadvantages to all of this because this is the first time in my life I had to readjust to the idea of gaining weight is not a bad thing. Now I gain weight, and dudes are like, “Fuck yeah.” And I’m like, “That has never been my mentality in my entire life. It’s always been like …
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, that fucks with you, doesn’t it?
Ash Perez:
Well, as a woman, it was just always, be smaller. Be as small as possible. And I remember taking pictures for the first time for the Try Guys cast launch, and it was a guy who had taken my photos a lot before as a woman. And I realized I don’t know how to pose as a man. And I was like, “What do I do?” And he was like, “Oh, just take up space.” And I was like, “This is crazy.” I know. Tori, does that make you want to smash your face against something? I was like, “All of posing as a woman …” Everything I learned in my sorority-
Tori Dunlap:
Be small-
Ash Perez:
… was about angles to make yourself look smaller.
Tori Dunlap:
Always. Hide your stomach. Hide your arms.
Ash Perez:
Hide everything. And I was like, “What am I supposed to do?”
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, my God.
Ash Perez:
And he said, “Just take up space.”
Tori Dunlap:
Take up space. Was he a straight guy?
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, okay.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, but it’s true.
Tori Dunlap:
No, it is.
Ash Perez:
That is what male posing is.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and, oh, God, we’ve talked on the show so much about this, and this is everything I talk about. You’re exactly right. For men, it’s make more money. It’s be bigger. It’s dream your big dreams, although that’s not how we talk about it for men. And then, for women, it’s shrink. And even the spending is … the financial advice for men is make more money, invest in the stock market. The advice for women is stop spending money on lattes. Right?
Ash Perez:
Oh, that’s so true.
Tori Dunlap:
So, again, I wrote a whole book about it. I’ll send you the book if you don’t have it.
Ash Perez:
Yes. I don’t. I’d love it.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, I had a copy of it at my hotel. I should have brought it for you. But that’s the whole thing is expand, be bigger, badder, better. And for women, it’s shrink and pay your life.
Ash Perez:
And even if you’re a woman who’s making all that money, pretend you’re not.
Tori Dunlap:
Exactly. Oh, you cannot own it.
Ash Perez:
Because It’s going to intimidate somebody.
Tori Dunlap:
You cannot own it. Can we maybe talk about that for a little bit?
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
What are the narratives now that the patriarchy, systemic oppression that you’re having to deal with, like the take up space one, that you wouldn’t have maybe thought about or considered? When we come back, Ash answers my question about how he navigates new gender dynamics as well as the emotional costs of being queer and trans. Stay tuned.
Ash Perez:
I mean, what sucks is that there’s a big difference between being a trans man and a trans woman. Trans women are so much more visible and susceptible to violence because of that. And there’s a lot of things post-transition that I’m benefiting from the patriarchy for the time of just safety. I could bike home. I could walk home. My girlfriend is four inches taller than me, and if I’m with her, people leave us alone, which is hilarious because she’s the one who’s going to beat you up, not me. But yet, there’s all these things now that the amount of energy I have back also in just not needing the amount of beauty products that I did before, not needing … you asked me before this, “Do you have a good side?” I’m like, “Not anymore, really.” And I don’t know if that’s just a facet of … I don’t know. Just less is expected of men. Even before this, I was like, “Oh, I’m kind of shiny right now,” which I know I’m going to look at and be like, “Shit! I’m shiny,” but it’s not-
Tori Dunlap:
But it also doesn’t matter.
Ash Perez:
But it also just … I won’t be judged the same way as a man for that. But a woman would be. They’d be like, “What is she doing? Why didn’t she know that?” And so-
Tori Dunlap:
I thought about reapplying my lipstick before I came for this interview, and I’m like, “Well, fuck it.”
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I was at the Angel City, seeing … Do you know Wildfang, the company?
Ash Perez:
Yeah. Yes. I love Wildfang.
Tori Dunlap:
I know Emma, the founder. Yeah, so she flew me out, which was so cool. And we got to be in this box.
Ash Perez:
Oh, amazing.
Tori Dunlap:
And it’s all lesbians.
Ash Perez:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
So I showed up, and I thought about doing a full face of makeup. And I literally called my boyfriend. I was like, “Oh, my God. It’s so freeing. And I just get to show up.”
Ash Perez:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t have to put on makeup if I don’t want to because it doesn’t really fucking matter. I don’t have to perform my gender.
Ash Perez:
Exactly. And the thing that’s annoying too is I remember part of performing gender as a woman too, is to be treated better. I remember going into stores even when I had money, a very pretty woman, where if I don’t look the part, they’re not going to treat me that way.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, totally, they won’t.
Ash Perez:
And there’s not really the … I mean, sure, you can’t look terrible.
Tori Dunlap:
Well-dressed=men, I guess, maybe gets more … Yeah.
Ash Perez:
But not in the same … you don’t get scrutinized at all in the same way. I luckily am reaping a lot of those benefits. It’s infuriating because I have the lived experience of being a woman for 30 years. I think for trans women, or non-binary people, or non-gender conforming people, there isn’t that same privilege that a lot of trans men get to enjoy just by the fact that testosterone is such a strong hormone and makes most trans people, most trans men, look cis after a certain point in time.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Are you hornier?
Ash Perez:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
I figured. If you’re going through puberty, it’s the acne. It’s the body hair. It’s everything.
Ash Perez:
It’s hungry, horny, sweaty. I literally have to change my sheets four times a week now because I’m sweating so much.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, my God.
Ash Perez:
And even that, the extra cost of-
Tori Dunlap:
Laundry, yeah.
Ash Perez:
… running laundry.
Tori Dunlap:
The electricity, sure. Sure.
Ash Perez:
I didn’t have to wear deodorant before. I just never-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, you lucky bastard.
Ash Perez:
I know.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, my God. All I do is sweat.
Ash Perez:
Yep. And now I have to wear deodorant. So, what’s that? An extra $10 a year? Actually, no. Deodorant’s expensive as fuck if you get non-aluminum deodorant.
Tori Dunlap:
And if you’re buying-
Ash Perez:
A lot of it.
Tori Dunlap:
… the male deodorant because I wear male … Oh, Jesus Christ. I wear male. Why is it so hard to say? Male deodorant. I feel like I’m doing this Southern accent. I don’t use female deodorant, women’s deodorant. I’m putting that in quotes because it’s, what, 20%-
Ash Perez:
More expensive. Yeah, for everything.
Tori Dunlap:
… more expensive. I don’t need to smell like a meadow. I’m okay.
Ash Perez:
Yep. And for razors and for all the-
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, it’s the pink tax.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Ash Perez:
But I think, yeah, so there are pros and cons to both of it, and I’m trying to enjoy the things that are pros because the cons are-
Tori Dunlap:
Feel huge.
Ash Perez:
… just horrendous.
Tori Dunlap:
We talked about this, but outside of the monetary costs, what for you also felt like a cost?
Ash Perez:
Of being trans or of not being trans, or of-
Tori Dunlap:
Both. The emotional, the physical, all of those.
Ash Perez:
I don’t want to just say the … here’s the thing. There’s a lot of bummers of not just trans-ness, but queerness early on. This is my new theory, and I wonder what you think about it. I feel like queer people go through a lot more earlier in their life and have a lot more of the traumatic experiences earlier. But I’m finding that my queer friends now are not having the traditional midlife crisis that my straight friends are because, at some point, you’re going to have to question, what are you doing? And for my straight friends now, their kids are older. They’re having the traditional, “I’m 40. What’s going on?” Whereas all my queer friends are like, “Oh, I’ve been having that.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right. That’s been my entire life.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. When you have to fight so early for who you are, the nice benefit is that once you’ve done it, you’ve done it.
Tori Dunlap:
I think that’s true.
Ash Perez:
And so you put in a lot of this work early. And I’m at a point now where my therapist was like, “We don’t have to do therapy anymore, just maintenance,” because I did so much therapy.
Tori Dunlap:
Great. Yeah.
Ash Perez:
And so, I think there’s always a flip side of the coin. I think the cost feels like I have to pay a price in blood, in energy, in time, and money in order to be myself. But the positive of it is that I paid that cost already, and now I get to just ride free.
Tori Dunlap:
Reap the rewards.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, I think if you’ve had to reckon with your identity constantly for your entire life, and then you do finally figure out, yeah, this is me. This feels good. If somebody’s never had to do that, yeah, It comes full force when shit gets real.
Ash Perez:
Yes. And usually, yeah, it’s just like, “Oh, fuck.” And you almost don’t know where to start, where it’s like, “Oh, I’m kind of towards the end of this journey now.” Well, I mean, life always changes, and things evolve, but I do think at my age, I feel so secure in who I am now, which is great.
Tori Dunlap:
And that’s what we want everybody to feel.
Ash Perez:
That’s what we live. I hope that for you, dear listener.
Tori Dunlap:
What’s something about the care you decided on that you wish you had known about sooner?
Ash Perez:
Oh.
Tori Dunlap:
I think one natural one, at least from me, is the recovery time. That’s huge.
Ash Perez:
Recovery time, and I think there’s ways to … so one of the things, top surgery, it’s not just the pre-stuff, but the post-stuff you have to have. In order to get better results, I spent $100 on this medical compression shirt, and then what I didn’t realize is that you have to change it. And so I spent another $100, and I had to get this special pillow. And so just the cost of maintenance afterward was really expensive.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. You think, “Okay, I’m going to get surgery, and then I got to recover for the two weeks or whatever, and then I’m done.”
Ash Perez:
No. Then it’s another $1,000 after surgery on all of those things.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, gosh.
Ash Perez:
And on silicone scar tape, and it’s all medical grade, and you don’t want to skim then because you’ve already had the fucking surgery. But I do wish that I had known. There’s a lot of resources that trans people share that stuff with each other, whether it’s knowledge, or unused stuff, or lightly used stuff so that people don’t have to pay for that stuff. I think the biggest thing … What do I wish I had known? I wish I just had somebody to go through it with me more.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re making me teary. Yeah, yeah. It had to feel very isolating.
Ash Perez:
And it is. I got my surgery. My marriage was falling apart during that.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s so hard.
Ash Perez:
It was literally taking care of myself in that.
Tori Dunlap:
Life’s hard already, and having somebody to depend on, let alone, right?
Ash Perez:
Yeah, and not having that care, it was hard. And maybe the thing that I wish that I knew was to not deal with the shame as much while I was going through it of, “Man, I have to put this on a credit card.” Or, “Man, I have to …” You know what? You can pay that back. Take care of yourself. There’s no need. I wish I didn’t go through that shame twice. It was already hard enough. And then, for me to be feeling like … because you listen to podcasts, or you listen to money advice, and everybody’s telling you something else, but that’s not your lived experience. And so, sometimes, debt can be a tool. Sometimes, it can be a thing-
Tori Dunlap:
We talk about that a lot.
Ash Perez:
Yes. That helps you, and it’ll get you through a period.
Tori Dunlap:
The average person has to go into debt in order to live your life.
Ash Perez:
Yes. Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
If you don’t ever have to go into debt, you come from generational wealth.
Ash Perez:
Exactly. Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
You got to typically go into debt to go to college. I had to take out a car loan to get my first car. That’s the reality.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. Most people don’t live life paying things in cash. That’s insane.
Tori Dunlap:
No. If you want to level up, like, okay, you want to be a homeowner-
Ash Perez:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
… are you paying that in cash?
Ash Perez:
No.
Tori Dunlap:
Most likely, no.
Ash Perez:
No, no.
Tori Dunlap:
Especially not in LA or Seattle. Pick an expensive city.
Ash Perez:
It’s funny because I don’t even think of mortgages and student loan as debt because I’m like, “That’s just a fact of life.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Ash Perez:
I’m thinking just credit card debt. But all of it, yeah, is in order to … That’s something that I wish that I knew is it’s okay to get the care you need, even if it seems excessive because as long as it’s right for you, you know what you need more than other people do.
Tori Dunlap:
And again, define excessive.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, exactly. That’s true.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s in a patriarchal world with a gender binary.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
None of this. This is all excessive by that standard. And again, for listeners, I’m putting that in massive air quotes, but none of this feels necessary, but of course it is.
Ash Perez:
Well, and that’s what I think is also interesting is that for a lot of people who are listening who maybe don’t know a trans person directly or are finding it hard to understand why something would be so necessary, I think you can think of it even as much as … You know when you get a bad haircut, and it’s like, “Holy fuck, I look terrible?” All you can think about is growing out your hair. Or I will now spend any amount of money to get this corrected because it just doesn’t look like you, and it’s fucking up your whole day. That’s like one-on-thousandth-
Tori Dunlap:
Iota, yeah.
Ash Perez:
… of what it feels like, but you have felt gender dysphoria or some kind of dysphoria about how you feel on the inside and how your presentation is.
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely.
Ash Perez:
Imagine wearing the wrong foundation color every day and knowing it’s the wrong color and being like, “Oh, there’s something I can do to fix it, but it’s going to cost something.” And so, I think that’s where we can have a little bit of grace for each other. And it’s made me have a lot of grace, also just for cis people who … I think I grew up with a lot of judgment because of how I was raised too, for women who got surgery or women who wanted to wear more makeup because we also just make things harder for each other too. It’s hard enough to be a woman, but it’s like there’s a right way to be a woman or a right way to be a man. Now, including with cis people, I’m just like, “If it makes you happy, more power to you. Do it.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, totally.
Ash Perez:
Just because I wouldn’t do it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. And I think as long as you’re not hurting anybody, it’s your body. It’s your life. Go for it.
Ash Perez:
Literally. And that’s the line for everything. My-
Tori Dunlap:
Do want people to be honest about it, though. That is a pet peeve of mine.
Ash Perez:
Oh, what do you mean?
Tori Dunlap:
How much controversy do I want to stir up?
Ash Perez:
Yeah, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
As someone who is in a curvy body, thinness is glorified on a good day, yet alone right now, like Ozempic, Wegovy, whatever. It’s crazy.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
There have been a lot of people, especially recently, who are like, “Oh, yeah, diet, exercise, lifestyle changes.”
Ash Perez:
I drink water. No, you don’t, bitch.
Tori Dunlap:
And they’ve been Ozempic-ing for a year. And I’m like, “That’s fine, but tell me that.”
Ash Perez:
Literally.
Tori Dunlap:
Especially if you’ve made your whole brand about your body or about being in the plus-size community, I need you to be honest about it. Same thing with the Kardashians being like, “Oh, yeah. Well, again, I just work out and eat well.” No. I’m like, “No, you have a shit ton of filler, and you’ve done whatever you’ve had to do.” And be honest about it, though.
Ash Perez:
For real. There was one episode of The Kardashians that I remember where it was … I think it was Kylie saying something about not denying her filler. And one of the other sisters was like, “You have filler. You have to say it.”
Tori Dunlap:
She has a very different face.
Ash Perez:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
And that’s fine.
Ash Perez:
And it’s fine.
Tori Dunlap:
But she needs to be honest about it.
Ash Perez:
Well, and you also have to be honest with people just so that if somebody wants that, you can pay for it. But you have to know the cost versus-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, God. Yeah, I don’t even want to get into this.
Ash Perez:
… thinking that that’s natural.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and especially if you’re selling, then, a whole brand of, “Hey, you can look like me.”
Ash Perez:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s false advertising.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s false advertising. You’re making billions of dollars off of lip kits. Sorry.
Ash Perez:
And you know what? Men are, in some ways, more open about that stuff in this way that I find strange because-
Tori Dunlap:
It’s about money too. It’s the same way. Men are allowed to talk about pursuing money. They’re allowed to talk about how much money they’ve brought in.
Ash Perez:
And they’re also allowed to talk about what they’ve spent on supplements or trainers, to-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh. Biohacking.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, or their own testosterone that they’re taking as cis men.
Tori Dunlap:
Sure. Right.
Ash Perez:
It’s this weird double standard where women are supposed to keep all of that. I don’t know. Women, you’re just supposed to pretend that you popped out of the fucking womb.
Tori Dunlap:
Men like pixie dream girl, yep.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, exactly. And no, you can talk about how much things cost. Oh, haircuts is another thing that I … for so long, I made fun of men for how cheap their haircuts were, but what I didn’t realize is how often you need to get them, so I would like to apologize to the men because I was like, “You spend $20 on a …” Well, by the way, it’s not $20 anymore. It’s like $50, so it’s not that different.
Tori Dunlap:
I know. I was literally just giving my partner shit the other way. He called me, and he was like, “My haircut was really expensive.” And then, immediately before I could take a breath, thank God, he was like, “I know they’re not as expensive as women’s haircuts. I know you’re there for five hours. I know that. However …”
Ash Perez:
It is. But the thing is, you don’t need your haircut as often. As a woman, I would probably get my hair cut … I would wait longer than I should.
Tori Dunlap:
I do the same thing.
Ash Perez:
I would do maybe four or five times a year.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Ash Perez:
But as a man-
Tori Dunlap:
Six weeks.
Ash Perez:
Not even. Six weeks is … if your hair grows vast, you look like a completely different person.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, your hair’s probably growing faster on T, too.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, it is. Everything-
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I didn’t think about that.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
So, you’re in a chair a lot to get your hair cut.
Ash Perez:
I am. I’m going on Friday.
Tori Dunlap:
Fun. You going to do a buzz?
Ash Perez:
I’m going to learn to cut my own hair at some point.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, okay.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Your hair looks great.
Ash Perez:
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap:
When I think about anybody from a marginalized community, whether you’re a woman, a person of color, or a trans person, a queer person, you just existing then becomes activism.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. Oof. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
And you’re almost, whether you want to or not, then forced to be a representation of that community.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, and have stances on things.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Or even just come on a podcast and talk about it, which I’m very thankful for. But-
Ash Perez:
Yeah. That’s my choice, though. The reason that I do this specifically, the reason that I do New Guy Tries and put myself out there publicly as a trans person is partially because I believe with all my heart that other trans people shouldn’t have to do that. My intersection of my work, my voice, my natural storytelling has led me to this position where, you know what? I’m actually pretty comfortable being a trans person, talking about it, and I’m happy to do that and happy to serve my community in that way. I think it’s completely unfair that that’s the extra weight or burden for a lot of trans people. And it’s why a lot of trans people stay stealth. Something that I couldn’t understand before was why you would want to stay stealth. And it’s just because you don’t want to deal with all the bullshit.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and also the threat to your life or the safety concerns. But isn’t it just … Again, we talk about this a lot, but you showing up as the best, baddest, fullest version of yourself is an act of protest.
Ash Perez:
It is.
Tori Dunlap:
And not doing anything else.
Ash Perez:
That’s what I love about your whole ethos too, of get rich to fuck the patriarchy because it’s-
Tori Dunlap:
It’s true.
Ash Perez:
… so true. I think that the best thing that we can all, in marginalized communities, do for each other is to make our money, keep ourselves safe, and then turn back around and give back.
Tori Dunlap:
Because nothing bad happens when marginalized communities have more money.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. No, literally no. And I mean, one of my favorite studies ever was that they found in disadvantaged, especially Third World countries, the most effective way … The reason microfinancing is so effective is because you give it to women, and women will immediately reinvest it in their community.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Ash Perez:
Whereas you give it to men, and they invest in themselves. And I think the same is true for marginalized communities is we know how hard it is to even be where we are, and so I don’t know any marginalized person who doesn’t turn around and give back. And yet how many billionaires don’t give any money, donate any money, don’t give a shit?
Tori Dunlap:
None. Well, and again, feel like that money is theirs, and they earned it. And so, how dare you come and take it from me?
Ash Perez:
Yeah, and cry on Fox News about it.
Tori Dunlap:
Don’t get me started. I’m so over it. I’ll say it again for the people in the back. Nothing bad happens when marginalized communities have money. When we come back, we’re finishing our conversation with Ash, including how to be more supportive of your trans and queer friends and partners. And, of course, a little talk about the Try Guys because it’s me. We’ll see you on the other side. I’m also thinking about if someone is listening who has a partner or a person in their life who is transitioning, how can they be supportive, be champions for their loved one?
Ash Perez:
Yeah, I mean, there’s things even like A, just listen to people. B, the active care of … I’m thinking post-surgery, my community was so amazing in bringing me food, bringing me soup, bringing me all the stuff so I didn’t have to just Door Dash all of that.
Tori Dunlap:
Venmoing you, hopefully.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. No, literally.
Tori Dunlap:
Good. Good.
Ash Perez:
And I love that. I think there’s a lot of stigma. Another thing with grief … When my dad was in the hospital, and we were in COVID, and we couldn’t stay in our family house, the expenses were getting so much just to keep ourselves fed while I’m trying to take care of my dad. And I remember just asking because everyone was like, “What can we do? What can we do?” And finally, at one point, I was like, “Just send money.” And it was something that … because I grew up in a more … especially, I went to Pepperdine. There were a lot of people who were affluent, and that’s very taboo.
Tori Dunlap:
Isn’t Pepperdine a Catholic school?
Ash Perez:
It’s a Church of Christ, so it’s really-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, it is?
Ash Perez:
… Christian. But-
Tori Dunlap:
I was going to say you and I should talk about that because I went to 18 years of Catholic school.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. Well, I went to a Seventh Day Adventist school for my whole life too, and then went to-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, buddy.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, it’s a lot of religious … and the cost of religious trauma. Yeah, it was something where I think wealthy people, again, they have these weird thoughts about money or what’s gauche or what’s not, but you know what you need. And that was the most help with all the money that people just sent, or all the people sent Door Dash credits. Do that. If you know your trans friend is having surgery … and by the way, you can also … If you’re listening to this episode, sometimes even with grief or with trans-ness, it’s the things that people do without you asking that are the most meaningful. And you know now, listening to this, that there is a cost to trans-ness that you may not have considered before. Just fucking Venmo your friend some money if you have some money and be like, “I hope you’re doing well. Here’s dinner on me.” And that’s just a friend thing anyway, but don’t discount … I think sometimes, we also live in a culture where we’re trying to figure out what to do besides the money. But sometimes, it’s just about the money. Just help someone out if you have the means. If you don’t, then there’s a million other things that you can do, and listening is the biggest one.
Tori Dunlap:
Right, Or driving your friend to and from surgery by, or someone from therapy, or whatever.
Ash Perez:
Yes. For surgery I had, even just from my egg freezing, my partner was gone, and so even for that … oh, yeah, one of my friends drove me after that because I technically had … even though the anesthesia wasn’t full generalized anesthesia-
Tori Dunlap:
Right. You probably shouldn’t be driving home.
Ash Perez:
You can’t drive home. But that’s $60 right there. And so, exactly, my friend just driving me saved me $60.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Or, “Hey, I’m taking you to whatever clothing store, and I don’t know, a sweater’s on me, or a top’s on me.” Or even just, “Okay, I don’t have the money. Let’s go to the mall. I will tell you what looks good on you and what doesn’t.”
Ash Perez:
Literally. Exactly. Which is helpful. Having someone there, or, “Hey, my boyfriend is not wearing these.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I love that.
Ash Perez:
I’ve had people literally be like, “My boyfriend’s not wearing these shirts anymore. Do you want them?” And I’d be like, “Fuck, yeah.”
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely, I do.
Ash Perez:
There’s so much that you can do that … Oh, another cost that I didn’t put in here is shoes, specifically.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, yeah.
Ash Perez:
My feet got bigger, and I had curated my whole life. Well, luckily, I had the immigrant mentality of always buying my shoes a little bit bigger, even post-puberty, because I was like, “I’m going to grow into them.” And thank God I did because I would say half of my shoes that were too big for me that I was pissed that I bought them too big for me now fit me.
Tori Dunlap:
Boom.
Ash Perez:
Yep.
Tori Dunlap:
The stuff you know now.
Ash Perez:
Yep. Now I know.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. So, one of my things I think about all the time that I’ve had non-binary friends in my life or trans people in my life be really, really gracious about, and I know you’re really gracious, which is one of my favorite things about you. Let’s say I mispronoun you.
Ash Perez:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Let’s say I dead name you by accident. How should I handle that? Because I think there’s an immediate … I remember the first time I did it, I felt like crawling in a hole.
Ash Perez:
You want to die.
Tori Dunlap:
Literally, I felt so bad. And then I was like, “I can never speak to this person again.” And the advice I got was just acknowledge it, pronoun them the correct way, and then move on.
Ash Perez:
Yep.
Tori Dunlap:
Is that right?
Ash Perez:
Yes. It’s literally just … and my mom does it, and we left that in New Guy Tries.
Tori Dunlap:
That was my favorite thing. Oh, it’s going to make me so teary. Your mother was this … please, everybody go watch. Oh, I’m already crying. Your mother was the sweetest thing. And yeah, I think probably, I actually read in the comments. Is this true that Tagalo does not-
Ash Perez:
Definitely do nothing. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Okay.
Ash Perez:
She’s been misgendering me my whole life.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. So it’s not … but it’s also probably confusing.
Ash Perez:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
But she was so gracious. And every time, you were so patient with her, and every time you corrected her, she just went, “Oh, yes, he.”
Ash Perez:
Yep. And that’s it. That’s all you have to do. If somebody misgenders you or if you say their dead name, just go, “Oh, shit. Sorry.” And then say the right thing, and then move on.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. Don’t make it a big deal.
Ash Perez:
That’s it. The other thing, though, that I will find that’s been happening more often is sometimes people will misgender me around other people and … say we’re in a group. A kindness that you can pay to your trans friend is stepping in for them so that I don’t always have to do it because a lot of times, I just let it go, especially if I know it’s not with mal intent. I’m just like, “I’ll let it go. It doesn’t bother me,” or it doesn’t bother me as much as it used to. But it is always really nice if I’m in a group and someone slips up, and a friend is like … By the way, you don’t also have to do it in front of the friend, the whole group, or do it immediately. But I’ve had friends be like, “Oh, hey, by the way, Ash is using new pronouns now.” And that just helps take the burden off so that I get to just be a person instead of the trans person.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I think that’s great advice.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
And it’s also, too, again, and this is the thing I learned, it’s not making a huge deal out of it because then that puts the pressure on you to go, “No, no, no, no. It’s fine,” even if it’s not fine.
Ash Perez:
Say you had friends who were twins, and you said the wrong name. You wouldn’t be like, “Oh, my God. I’m so fucking sorry. I can’t believe I did it.”
Tori Dunlap:
Or even the dog. You see the dog, and you’re like, “Oh, she’s so cute. Oh, it’s a he? Oh, sorry. It’s a he.”
Ash Perez:
Do it the same as you do with dogs. And it’s so funny because we actually do those things a lot in our lives. Same with babies.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s the thing where I don’t understand how people … again, nobody listening to this podcast has an issue with gender, but-
Ash Perez:
Yeah, that’s true.
Tori Dunlap:
The amount of people who are just like … it breaks their brain. But yeah, baby, dog.
Ash Perez:
You do it all the time.
Tori Dunlap:
You do it all the time. Oh, I saw a headline today about Ted Cruz.
Ash Perez:
Oh, the Ted Cruz one, that was amazing.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Oh, God, that made me so good.
Ash Perez:
It was like, “Raphael Edward Cruz, who goes by Ted, passes a bill to stop people from using preferred names and pronouns.” What an idiot.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s how we need headlines written.
Ash Perez:
Yep.
Tori Dunlap:
I’d be remiss if I didn’t talk about your work with the Try Guys.
Ash Perez:
Oh, yes. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know if you know this. I’ve been a Try Guys watcher for a very, very long time.
Ash Perez:
No, I didn’t.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, yeah, big, big fan. And then, I did a-
Ash Perez:
Since BuzzFeed?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, yeah.
Ash Perez:
Okay.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, no. Actually, here’s the deal.
Ash Perez:
Post.
Tori Dunlap:
I went to their … it was just when they had launched the new channel.
Ash Perez:
Oh, yeah. Okay.
Tori Dunlap:
I discovered them for the first time and then went back and watched all of it.
Ash Perez:
Ah, okay.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, I’m a second try subscriber.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. Hell yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I’ve done Eat the Menu with Keith. I don’t know if you know this.
Ash Perez:
No, I didn’t know that.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, part two of Cheesecake Factory. I was on the Big One.
Ash Perez:
Oh, fuck yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
It was a very full circle moment for me that I manifested.
Ash Perez:
Oh, I need to watch that. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, it was very exciting.
Ash Perez:
You manifest a lot, and you need to teach me about that.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, I will. Let’s go out to dinner. I’ll teach you. No, but I have loved their work, and it was such a cool surprise to see you and everybody else in the cast. Can you talk a little bit about what that process was like joining, especially with everything that they’ve been going through over the past couple of years? But then also, is it something that you went into going, “I know I’m going to talk about being trans,” or did that come along naturally?
Ash Perez:
I mean, actually, so I’m just friends with Zach and Keith before any of us were famous.
Tori Dunlap:
The Buzz fuzz.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. We were all friends at BuzzFeed, and so it was very natural. We were actually just catching up over hot pot, and Zach was asking about my transition, like, “How’s it going?” I think a lot of people are expecting it to be more traumatic than it is. And I was like, “It’s actually pretty funny.” And he was like, “What are you talking about?” I was just telling him all this shit that’s been happening. There’s a lot of funny stuff that happens. And then, as the more we talked about it, he’s like, “That’s like a show. We should do that.” And I was like, “Oh, I would totally do that.”
Tori Dunlap:
Well, even you talk about how do I … do we handshake? Do we hug?
Ash Perez:
Yeah. That, I still can’t get right.
Tori Dunlap:
Just how do I perform now being a man?
Ash Perez:
I just hug everyone.
Tori Dunlap:
Great.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I was thinking about it today. I was like, “Okay-“
Ash Perez:
Should we hug?
Tori Dunlap:
Are we going to hug, or are we going to … I don’t know.
Ash Perez:
What is the male-female interaction?
Tori Dunlap:
Right. But knowing, again-
Ash Perez:
It’s fine.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s fine.
Ash Perez:
So, yeah, it actually happened really naturally and organically, but it’s been amazing because, by the way, I truly believe, and this is not just because I’m on Second Try now, part of the reason that it’s so important to also, if you can, financially support the ventures of the people who are doing stuff is because I have tried to sell versions of my show or of myself that would never have made it to network. And even now, I know there’s a show that I want to take out that’s about my life as a trans man, but it’s just a sitcom, but I know no one’s going to touch that right now because they don’t want to be embroiled in any of the controversy.
Tori Dunlap:
I’ve pitched TV shows about, “Hey, we’re going to talk about money, but through a feminist lens.”
Ash Perez:
They’re like, “Feminists, ugh. No, we don’t want to. How are we going to get Dove to get on board with that?” I mean, Dove probably would be, but-
Tori Dunlap:
Dove would be fine. No, but I just got asked to speak somewhere. This is the first time this has happened, actually, in these terms. But literally, my speaking manager got a message, and she sent it to me yesterday, and it was like, “We just want to make sure, because this is a corporate environment, that there’s not going to be anything political and that Tori’s not going to curse.” And I’m like, “I can take the cursing out.” That’s fine. I’ve been asked to do that before. But-
Ash Perez:
Political? My life also … it’s called-
Tori Dunlap:
The Pod Financial Feminist.
Ash Perez:
… Financial Feminist, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you, Ash. That’s the thing. I have to go to my legal team and be like, “Okay, if I say the word systemic oppression, am I not getting paid?”
Ash Perez:
Yeah. No, for real.
Tori Dunlap:
Because this is all we talk about is money is inherently political. I’m sorry, I can’t. And that’s not just me just trying to bring politics. It’s like you have to talk about that.
Ash Perez:
Yes, yes.
Tori Dunlap:
And so, yeah, TV shows aren’t getting made. You’re exactly right. You have to support the kind of media you want to see.
Ash Perez:
And that’s why it’s like Second Try. And I’m really happy that our show was the number one driver of subscribers to Second Try.
Tori Dunlap:
Was it really?
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, that’s lovely.
Ash Perez:
Which was great. And because of that, we get to make a season two. I’m filming season two right now.
Tori Dunlap:
Yay. Yay. Cool.
Ash Perez:
And that’s directly because people are subscribing, which allows us to keep paying for these kinds of shows. And I just cannot tell you. As someone who has also worked in Hollywood for 10 years on the traditional side, this just will not, would not have gotten made, and I got to make it. Part of the reason that I love it so much, and I’m so proud of it, and I also think that it’s having the impact it’s having is because I actually got to make it without any voices trying to change me.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep, censorship. Yep.
Ash Perez:
Honestly, it’s not that Zach and Keith … I love Zach. He had a moment where he had all these different thoughts, and he came back to me himself and was like, “Actually, you know what? The reason we want you to make this show is because I want you to make the show you want to make.” And he just stepped back. And that would not-
Tori Dunlap:
As if I couldn’t respect that man more.
Ash Perez:
…. fucking happen.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s fantastic.
Ash Perez:
It’s for real. Know that they are the allies that they are saying that they are. And it’s so cool too. The coolest thing too is when I get to make something that is about my identity but not the whole reason of it … this show is just as much about me being goofy and me being dumb as it is about me being trans.
Tori Dunlap:
You got your little pipe. You got your fire set.
Ash Perez:
Yeah, I got my whole-
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Ash Perez:
Oh, my. And it gets dumber this season, friends.
Tori Dunlap:
Great. I’m excited.
Ash Perez:
It’s going to get so much dumber. It’s so dumb. But getting to do that too is amazing. And to be able to get paid while doing that is such a gift. So, support people when you can. Support creators. Support trans creators, specifically. Support the people who support them. There’s a lot of ways that in a place where we feel like what the fuck are we all doing right now, how can we help, money talks.
Tori Dunlap:
It really does.
Ash Perez:
Look at what’s happening with fucking Target and with all of these companies. Your money, or the absence of your money, absolutely changes things, probably faster than almost anything else in this world.
Tori Dunlap:
Literally.
Ash Perez:
Faster than someone standing in Congress, or bills, or anything like that. It’s your money that’s going to get people to pay attention.
Tori Dunlap:
I think one of my other favorite parts about that show was you having conversations with men and them meeting you tap for tap with vulnerability. It was so beautiful because I don’t think there’s a lot of depictions, nor is there a lot in reality, honestly, of especially straight men having conversations about what it means to be a man or how they’re trying to change how their dad handled masculinity generation. So, what did you take from those conversations?
Ash Perez:
I mean, it was like a science experiment in that I came in with one thesis, and it was torn apart or at least changed in that I thought I had an idea of what manhood was. And-
Tori Dunlap:
What did you think it was?
Ash Perez:
I don’t know. I think I thought it was a little bit more broad and external than it is. And I thought that men didn’t have or go as deep with their feelings, but now I just realize they don’t have the space to. The thing that patriarchy denies them is the space to have those conversations. Whereas almost all women-
Tori Dunlap:
Patriarchy hurts men as much as it hurts women.
Ash Perez:
Oh, totally.
Tori Dunlap:
Sometimes more.
Ash Perez:
I think that women have … because of the position that women hold in patriarchy, have had to examine their role in society and know exactly where they fit and who they are. Whereas men, the disadvantage of getting a lot of things that you’re not aware of your privilege is that you’re also not given a space or need to examine those things. And so, half the guys … the show became a weird Trojan horse for cis men to talk about their masculinity.
Tori Dunlap:
It felt like a group therapy session.
Ash Perez:
Yes. Literally all of them, after … And I feel so much closer to them after doing that show, but after … and my producer kept being like, “I’ve worked with Miles for five years. He’s never said anything like that.” Or, “I’ve worked with Zach-“
Tori Dunlap:
Mm-hmm. Didn’t Nick Cruise say that?
Ash Perez:
Yeah, Nick did. And it’s like going through all of that and just consistently finding … and every guy was like, “You know what? I’ve either never thought about that, or I’ve thought about that, but I’ve never known who to talk to about it.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Ash Perez:
Then it was just like, oh, the guys are just talking amongst themselves in the way that I’m like, “Oh, that’s the gift of Girlhood that I can give you of chatting-
Tori Dunlap:
That’s beautiful.
Ash Perez:
… and talking, and being there for each other emotionally.” Because we all have something to offer each other. And what I learned from guys is that they have play so deeply ingrained in them in a way that women are not taught the same way, mostly because we’re, from the beginning, taught that you have to just take care of business, and take care of the house, and take care of everything. There’s not really time to play.
Tori Dunlap:
To hold everybody’s emotions for them.
Ash Perez:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Ash Perez:
Yes, exactly. Whereas a big part of boyhood is play.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I wish I could remember who said it, but somebody talked about how male friendships are side to side versus female friendships are face-to-face.
Ash Perez:
Jane Fonda.
Tori Dunlap:
Is it really Jane Fonda?
Ash Perez:
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Tori Dunlap:
And I love that quote because it is true. Again, I’m dating a straight man, and the amount of times it’s like, “Oh, how’s this friend?” And he’s like, “Oh, he’s fine.”
Ash Perez:
I don’t know.
Tori Dunlap:
“Oh, how’s his girlfriend?” “I don’t know.”
Ash Perez:
I don’t know.
Tori Dunlap:
“What do you mean you don’t know? You spent three hours with him.” “Oh, we watched soccer.” Oh, okay. Well, fucking hell.
Ash Perez:
Re-watching when Harry met Sally now, I can so clearly see. Every time Jess and Harry are hanging out, they’re doing an activity. They’re side by side watching a game, usually sports, or hitting a ball or something. Whereas Sally, with her friends-
Tori Dunlap:
I mean, literally bars. You’re at a bar. You’re side to side.
Ash Perez:
Whereas Sally, with her friends, they’re looking at each other, and they’re just having conversations.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and men’s hanging out is usually activity-based.
Ash Perez:
It has to be activity-based.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, it’s not-
Ash Perez:
Which is-
Tori Dunlap:
Women is like give me a glass bottle of wine, and-“
Ash Perez:
That’s it.
Tori Dunlap:
… it’s a yap-sesh.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. For me, I remember my first male hang. We went rock climbing, and I was just like, “When are we going to start talking?” I didn’t understand what was going on.
Tori Dunlap:
When does the yap start?
Ash Perez:
Well, the yap started actually once he started climbing. He was like … we had been talking about nothing. And then, he starts climbing. He’s like, “I don’t know, man. I just don’t know if I’m capable of finding love.” And I was holding him up, belaying the-
Tori Dunlap:
Literally, both emotionally and physically.
Ash Perez:
Yeah. I was like, “What?” Men want to talk about those things. They just don’t have the same place or permission to talk about them.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Let’s talk about trans joy.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
How do we find it? How do we celebrate it? What does it mean to you?
Ash Perez:
Just be yourself. The thing that sucks about what’s happening to trans people right now is that trans people are just people just like everyone else is, and they’re just trying to be happy and just trying to have fun. And the more I can remember … something I’m doing as a creative is not putting the burden of responsibility of carrying the entire trans community on me first. I’m thinking first as a creative of what makes Ash happy. What makes me laugh? What are the types of things I want to do? And I can’t erase the fact that I’m trans, so that’s going to be part of it anyway. And it’s been so much more of a joyful experience. And season two, by the way, I thought we were in a post-gender era. We’re heading towards that, especially … our show had come out. And what’s the Will Ferrell doc?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh. Oh, I know what you’re talking about.
Ash Perez:
Why can’t I think? Will and Harper.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Ash Perez:
Will and Harper came out and was getting good acclaim, and then the election happened. It was just like, “Fuck! Here we go back again.” And we were trying to decide. I was like, “Oh, my God. Do we have to change season two?” Season two was going to be about boys and their toys, and it was supposed to be really fun and silly. And then I was like, “Do we have to do a big protest thing or whatever?” And I was like, “No. Fuck no.”
Tori Dunlap:
Well, you living as trans again, is, in fact, a protest.
Ash Perez:
Exactly. And season two is about boys and their toys, and it’s so silly, and it’s so me. And yet, it still touches even more than it did before on trans identity. And I think that’s, to me, what trans joy is, of getting to be myself, getting the privilege of just being human without having my identity of being trans having to be the first thing about me.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. My last question for you.
Ash Perez:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Advice for people listening who don’t feel like their gender identity suits them or who are struggling, trying to figure out what their path forward is.
Ash Perez:
I will give you the advice that my $300 session therapist did for free.
Tori Dunlap:
Amazing.
Ash Perez:
Yes. Here you go. Free advice is follow your joy. I was starting to go through this point of, I don’t know if I want to cut my hair. I don’t know if I want to do this. I don’t know. And having these-
Tori Dunlap:
Because it felt like a commitment?
Ash Perez:
Yes. Having these obsessive thoughts of just is it the right thing or not, and taking too many steps ahead. And she was like, “Well, does it make you happy?” And then I was like, “Yeah.” And she’s like, “Okay, then do that.” And then she’s like, “And then just keep doing what makes you happy,” which was a way to think about gender that I hadn’t thought of before. It’s a little bit of that. I think it’s in Frozen II where they say, “Just do the next right thing.” With gender, sometimes we feel like we have to arrive at this place where you can confidently say to everybody what your pronouns are, exactly how you felt-
Tori Dunlap:
And coming out, yeah.
Ash Perez:
… and how long you felt it. Whereas the truth is, does it make you happy to do this, even if it’s outside of what you’ve traditionally been told that men, or women, or non-binary people are supposed to do or look like? Then do that. And eventually, you land where you’re supposed to be. So, there you go. That was $1,000 worth of advice for free.
Tori Dunlap:
Ash, thank you for your vulnerability.
Ash Perez:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you for your work. Plug away, my friend.
Ash Perez:
Oh, season two of New Guy Tries is coming out in the coming months. You can go back in the meantime and go to Secondtry.tv to watch the whole first season and help support the places and the people who make the type of media that you want to happen. And also, I have a Substack, ITS Ashley Perez. Ashley with no E. I’m dead naming myself because I don’t want to change all my handles. Dotsubstack.com. Yeah, see you later, internet.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you.
Ash Perez:
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much to Ash for joining us. You can find their incredible series, New Guy Tries, on Second Try TV. I am a subscriber. If you’ve been a longtime listener of the show, you know how much I love everything the Try Guys do. And this is the most thoughtful show. I laugh. I cry. He also just came and spoke to us internally at Her First $100K to our team. We’ve gotten to know each other a little bit. He’s just one of the kindest people and also very focused on giving this education in a way that doesn’t feel intimidating, that doesn’t feel like a gotcha moment. And you see this in New Guy Tries too. One of my favorite moments is when his mother actually keeps misgendering him. And there’s no argument. There’s no fight. She’s quick to correct herself. But it’s just this beautiful version of how all of these conversations and all of this sometimes feels new or sometimes feels intimidating, but it’s just really beautiful, and it’s really about relationships and about making people feel seen and loved and heard.
Thank you so much for joining us. This episode is one that needs to be shared. I know we talk about sharing the show all the time. Thank you for your support. But this is one that I need you to share far and wide. Trans people are under attack right now. Trans people do not feel safe in America and every country, but especially right now in the United States. And I think it’s really important to have these conversations to show that transgender people are people too. They just want to feel safe. So please amplify this episode. Share it with the people in your life. Share it on social media. It’s an incredible conversation. Thank you, as always, for being here. We’ll see you back here very soon.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K Podcast. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Research by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Daryl Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Meghan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
