We all make financial mistakes—but what happens when those mistakes literally cost you everything?
In this episode, I sit down with money expert, author, and host Nicole Lapin, who shares her deeply personal story of losing her home and studio in the LA fires just two weeks after giving birth—and the painful lessons she learned in the aftermath. From skipping business insurance to the emotional toll of rebuilding from scratch, Nicole gets brutally honest about the financial oversights that even experts can make, and how you can protect yourself before disaster strikes. We also talk about the realities of new motherhood, navigating shame, estate planning, and why money isn’t just about numbers—it’s about safety, security, and learning how to trust yourself again.
Key takeaways:
Even financial experts make mistakes—and that’s okay.
Nicole admits that despite being a financial professional, she failed to get business insurance for her office before it burned down in the LA fires. Her story reminds us that life happens, and even when we know what to do, emotions, exhaustion, and timing can get in the way. The key is to learn, not shame ourselves, for what we didn’t know or didn’t do in time.
Money equals safety—not just numbers.
Nicole’s experience reframed money for her as more than wealth; it’s about feeling safe and secure. Having financial safeguards like insurance, emergency funds, and wills helps protect your peace during chaos. Money provides options and stability, not just material comfort.
Prepare for the unthinkable—before it happens.
Nicole stresses the importance of documenting your belongings, reading your insurance policy, and ensuring your coverage includes “additional living expenses” (for temporary housing, childcare, or pet care if you’re displaced). Most people never read their policies until it’s too late, but these details can make or break your recovery after a disaster.
Parenthood brings new financial priorities.
Becoming a mom pushed Nicole to confront her financial systems—setting up a trust, considering 529 college savings plans, and learning to budget for childcare. She and I discuss the emotional and financial load parents carry, and how to find balance between providing for your kids and protecting your own financial future.
Estate planning isn’t just for the rich.
Nicole makes the case that trusts, wills, and estate plans are essential for everyone, not just wealthy families. They ensure your assets are handled how you want and spare loved ones the pain of probate. As she puts it, “A trust isn’t for rich people—it’s for smart people who want control.”
Shame keeps us stuck—honesty sets us free.
We close the episode talking about financial shame, self-forgiveness, and the myth of perfection. Nicole shares how truth-telling and facing the numbers head-on is the only way to reclaim power. “We all would’ve done better with more information,” she says—and now that you have it, you can do better moving forward.
Notable quotes
“The best antidote to shame is truth.”
“Worrying never prevented the bad thing from happening—it just made me suffer twice.”
“Debt is shameful for poor people but smart for rich people—it even gets a rebrand.”
Episode at-a-glance
00:41 LA fires & loss
01:51 Documenting for insurance
02:35 Money & safety
05:02 Insurance tips
11:11 Parenthood finances
16:37 Childcare costs
19:00 Parenting boundaries
21:41 Teaching kids money
22:41 Investing basics
25:07 Money priorities
29:40 Estate Planning
32:26 Debt & leverage
34:20 Imposter syndrome
38:57 Building your path
41:57 Financial shame
Nicole’s Links:
Website: https://nicolelapin.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nicolelapin/?hl=en
Podcast: https://moneynewsnetwork.com/podcast/money-rehab/
Visit herfirst100k.com/ffpod to stay up to date and find any resources mentioned on our show!
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Squarespace
Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase.
RESOURCES:
Looking for accountability, live coaching, and deeper financial education? Join the $100K Club
Register for our free investing workshop: https://herfirst100k.com/secrets
Feeling Overwhelmed? Start here!
Our HYSA Partner Recommendation (terms apply)
Behind the Scenes and Extended Clips on Youtube
Leave Financial Feminist a Voicemail
Financial Feminist on Instagram
Take our FREE Money Personality Quiz
Meet Nicole
America’s go-to money expert Nicole Lapin is the only finance expert you don’t need a dictionary to understand. She got her start in the business world at age eighteen, reporting from the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange for First Business Network. Nicole went on to become the youngest anchor ever at CNN and then to claim the same title at CNBC, where she anchored the only global finance show on the network, Worldwide Exchange, while contributing financial reports to MSNBC and Today. She has served as a business anchor for Bloomberg TV and a special money correspondent for Entertainment Tonight. Nicole has been the host of the nationally-syndicated business reality competition show Hatched and contributes regular financial reports to Good Morning America, The Talk and On Air with Ryan Seacrest, among other shows. In 2023, she launched a business- and finance-focused podcast network, Money News Network.
Among the slate of shows on MNN is “Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin,” a daily show that consistently ranks in the top 5 on Apple’s business charts. The show, which has more than 400 episodes and a 5-star rating, helps listeners navigate financial news while offering tactical tips and tricks. She also co-hosts a podcast with the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, Jason Feifer, called “Help Wanted” which tackles taboo money topics. Other shows on the network include “Social Currency with Sammi Cohen,” “Superwomen with Rebecca Minkoff,” “We Have Options with Dominique Broadway,” “Trade Like Einstein with Peter Tuchman,” and “Money Maker with Nely Galan” that releases episodes in English and in Spanish.
Nicole’s first two books Rich Bitch, an instant NYT Bestseller, and Boss Bitch became hits with female audiences looking to take charge of their money and careers. She has disrupted the traditionally male- dominated, boring finance space by offering actionable advice with her signature sassy and accessible style. Her third book Becoming Super Woman, which teaches women to go from burnout to balance in a simple 12-step plan, is now out along with its companion The Super Woman Journal. Nicole’s fourth book Miss Independent, a Simple 12-Step Plan to Start Investing and Grow Your Own Wealth, was a multi-week Wall Street Journal bestseller. Nicole’s latest book, The Money School, is out now and offers more advanced information on investing.
Nicole launched a series of online masterclasses—The Money School, The Boss School and The Balance School, that expand on the lessons in her three books. Nicole also taught a finance class at The Jack Welch School of Business at Strayer University. She was named GOBankingRates’ “Money Expert of The Year” for the second year in a row and is the first female winner. Nicole was also the first-ever monthly finance columnist at Hearst Magazines. Nicole has earned the Accredited Investment Fiduciary (AIF®) certification and her Series 65. She graduated summa cum laude and as valedictorian of her class at Northwestern University’s Medill School of Journalism, also earning honors in political science.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
Financial mistakes happen, but some of them are more catastrophic than others. Today, bestselling author and financial expert, Nicole Lapin, is sharing some of the biggest financial mistakes she’s made, including the one that literally, quite literally cost her everything, so you can avoid them, too.
Nicole Lapin:
A single disaster can wipe everything out if you’re not thinking ahead financially. If I could go back in time, Tori, I would’ve just walked through my house, walked through my office, and documented everything.
Tori Dunlap:
Nicole Lapin is the host of the daily personal finance podcast called Money Rehab and is a New York Times bestselling author. She has written several books on personal finance, including her most recent book, The Money School: 12 Simple Lessons to Master Financial Markets and Investing.
Nicole Lapin:
The best antidote to shame is truth. And to be really, really honest and look at those numbers finally, because they’re not as bad as you probably think.
Tori Dunlap:
This is a powerful conversation about learning from your mistakes, prepping for the unexpected, unostriching yourself from burying your head in the sand, and giving yourself grace when life does not go according to plan.
Nicole Lapin:
So anytime somebody’s like, “How do I create millionaire kids?” I’m like, “Well, how are you with money? Are you hoarding? Are you spending like crazy? Are you hiding purchases? They’re watching everything that you’re doing.”
Tori Dunlap:
Let’s get into it. But first a word from our sponsors.
Okay, Nicole, we’re talking about hard financial lessons today, so I want to start with what is a financial decision you look back on and go, never again?
Nicole Lapin:
Not getting business insurance for our brand new offices and studio. Never again.
Tori Dunlap:
You want to tell me more about that?
Nicole Lapin:
I do. I was pregnant last year and built our new offices. And being pregnant is exhausting and building a whole office is also exhausting, and running a company and all the things. And so I thought that I would get around to business insurance and doing a proper process to get a bunch of bids and get the best insurance for us. But two weeks after my daughter was born, in the beginning of this year, we lost our home and our studios to the LA fires. So I didn’t have enough time.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m so sorry. I’ve been-
Nicole Lapin:
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap:
… watching you and friends of mine. There’s been so many people who’ve been impacted by that, and it’s one of many things I want to talk about with you today. But it is an interesting thing to think about where you are a financial expert, I’m a financial expert, and there’s still things on our financial to-do list that I have not done. And unfortunately, for you and your family, deeply unfortunately, but maybe fortunately for us that we can learn from, it’s the importance of having these things to together even if they feel deeply inconvenient or you don’t need them or, oh, I’ll do that next week. So can you talk to me about that feeling that you had, which is totally understandable. I’m pregnant, I just gave birth, I have other shit to do than this. But how that often gets in the way.
Nicole Lapin:
My daughter and I are both wearing diapers.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. But life just gets in the way sometimes of these financial decisions that we know are important.
Nicole Lapin:
Totally. There is some shame. I think it’s been such a journey, but nobody ever thinks it’s going to happen to them, right? I thought we were going to evacuate and we were going to come back, and the truth is a single disaster can wipe everything out if you’re not thinking ahead financially. And I think if I could go back, I would have done so many things differently. And yes, I’d love to use my platform to be really honest and say, I talk about this stuff every single day, but we can’t go through and do everything. And I’m not perfect, and I have never pretended to be perfect. I love talking about all the ways I messed up, so hopefully somebody doesn’t do the same thing. And if I could go back in time, Tori, I would’ve just walked through my house, walked through my office and documented everything.
Literally just do that today. Whoever’s listening, take your phone, go through not just the expensive stuff, not just the jewelry or the valuables, but everything, like your towels, your light fixture, your toaster, your makeup colors. By the way, I forgot all of my makeup colors because I just didn’t know, right? The little things that you have to remember when you’re going through inventory. You have to put together an inventory. It’s gut-wrenching for your entire life, for FEMA, SBA, insurance. And then if you don’t get any of that money back, you hopefully can take it off on your taxes, but you’re going to need to do that inventory and it is the worst.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m sorry to dive right in. I’m trying to talk about the serious stuff so that we can talk about the other stuff, too. But what was the moment where it felt so real for you, the connection between money and safety? Because we talk a lot on the show about how it’s not about numbers, it’s not about the amount of money in the bank, it’s about the deep breath you get to take because you know you’re okay. And I think that for so many people, you talk about this, I talk about this ad nauseam, having an emergency fund together, right? Yes, it’s very practical, but it’s also so that when you are in a high-stress scenario, whether that is a natural disaster or you losing your job or somebody in your life getting sick, the last thing you have to think about is can I afford it? And I imagine that that felt very acute, that connection between money and safety throughout this whole experience.
Nicole Lapin:
A hundred percent. We’re just going to get into it. I’ve always had housing insecurity. I watched my house being foreclosed on when I was a kid. Really broken home and never felt like I had roots or a place to call home. And so finally, and I also never thought that I would be lucky enough to have my own children, and I really had done a lot of work around the idea of what that looks like. And I did and finally had settled into a home that I loved. Had just put together the nursery. Had just moved into an office walking distance so that I could have some separation postpartum. I had really tried to safeguard myself in any way possible against postpartum depression. All of that went out the window.
And so it was not about what was in my bank account at all, and it never has been. It’s always been that feeling, the trauma that continues to go up. And you and I have done a lot of work around this, but it never truly, truly goes away. Anyone who tells you, I’m over it, is lying to you.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Nicole Lapin:
It comes up. It comes up for all of us. Even if we’ve done a lot for our financial life, there’s always more to do and there’s always more to learn. We’ve had a lifetime of bad habits or traumatic situations, and it’s going to take a lifetime to counteract that. And so I had finally felt like I was at a place where things were really good. I had talked to my therapist right before I gave birth at the end of last year, and she was like, “You know what? Sometimes stuff just works out. Sometimes the other shoe isn’t going to drop.” And then my first therapy session of the year, she’s like-
Tori Dunlap:
You’re like, “I want my money back.”
Nicole Lapin:
… “I was thinking about you. I’m sorry.” Sometimes it doesn’t work out.
Tori Dunlap:
When you think about that experience of both going through that and also almost like it does kind of force you to reckon with your own financial trauma, I want everybody to understand that Nicole and I are telling you to do the right things. And we’re also still people, where I have said on the show and I still have not gotten around to it, I still don’t have a will in place, and I’m trying to make time to do it.
Nicole Lapin:
It’s never a fun day.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s not a fun day. And I tell people they need to do it, and I haven’t done it. And I’m confessing that to you, and it’s a little embarrassing, but to show you that this works people, too. Personal finance, even for experts, and again, this is my second point, is still a little intimidating or is still something that sometimes feels like a chore. And you hope you don’t need these things like business insurance or like a will, but eventually you might. And you’re really, really thankful when you do these hard things. And you were mentioning insurance, both I think on the business side, but also I imagine there was so many things you learned just about navigating insurance with natural disaster, including there’s so many people who are not getting coverage now in places like California. What do most people not know until they’re in an emergency? I don’t think anyone really reads their policy.
Nicole Lapin:
And I didn’t.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I haven’t. I haven’t.
Nicole Lapin:
And who does, right? I just assumed I had a policy. I’m covered, I’m good.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s iTunes terms and conditions, I’m just like scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. Yes, check the box. Got it.
Nicole Lapin:
Totally. Who’s sitting around and reading the fine print of your insurance policy? But let me tell you, I have now. And I had great coverage that was canceled actually the year before. And I thought a new policy was bare bones, but it was enough, and it wasn’t. And what I would’ve specifically looked for is this thing called additional living expenses. Do you know about this or have you seen this in your policy?
Tori Dunlap:
I haven’t talked about… Well, we’ll probably talk about this by the time. I just bought my first house, and so one of the things that I have learned a lot about is just how do I cover the house properly? How do I make sure I’m covered? And I believe, yeah, that was part of it, of what beyond insurance, if we’ve maxed that out, is this going to cover? Is that kind of what we’re talking about?
Nicole Lapin:
Totally. And so if you are displaced from your home and you need to rent, you need a hotel, you need childcare, you need dog boarding, whatever that is, what does the policy cover of that? What is the comparable housing that that covers? What does it do above and beyond? Because it will do the delta of what you’re currently spending and it will only give you the additional living expenses or this loss of use in your policy. So if I could go back in time, I would just make sure that that was the best it could possibly be. And again, you’re right, a lot of locations, especially in Los Angeles, in Florida, are not getting properly covered. And this is a big, big issue, as you talk about, when buying your home, you need to think about this insurance component to it. And also, I’ll be honest, I thought spending a whole bunch of money on insurance for something that is probably never going to happen, I bare use, I barely go to the doctor, which is a whole other podcast.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. No, but it feels like a waste of money. Totally.
Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. We’ve done shows on should we just take those premiums, put it in an escrow account, let that grow and, God forbid, if we need that, go tap into it. And so I was sort of in that place where I was like, ah, this is kind of wasting money. Just going balls to the wall with insurance might not net out. And, God, I wish I didn’t feel that way last year and I wish I was more on top of the coverage that I ended up switching to, because it wasn’t ideal.
Tori Dunlap:
I mean, we’re talking about hard lessons today in this episode. I mean, I think that one is obviously pretty unimaginable. Again, you just mentioned you’re also a new mom. Perfect timing. So you have said that you were surprised by how much you didn’t know about the financial side of parenting. So if someone is planning for kids or has maybe already had them, what are the top three things they need to set up right away?
Nicole Lapin:
So a 529 is something that you can set up before you give birth or adopt. You can set it up actually in your own name. So I would look into a 529, if that’s something that’s interesting to you. You can now, because of new rules, roll it over into a Roth IRA later if your kid doesn’t use it. If we’re thinking, is there actually going to be college when my daughter who’s eight months old, grows up? I have no idea. But it’s not just for college, you can use it for K-12 tuition. If one kid doesn’t use it, you can change the beneficiary to another family member or even to yourself. So I would say tax-free growth. Withdrawals are tax-free. Anybody can contribute, grandparents, godparents. You send this thing called a Yougift link. It’s super easy. And of course we’re going to have holidays and birthdays where my daughter will get toys and other things, but I’m also going to send this link seriously, because I wish I had stocks instead of stuff growing up, and I hope she does too, because she’s going to get some.
Tori Dunlap:
I think that’s one thing that I’ve started doing is I do a fun gift and then the practical gift. So I do the Sephora gift card and then I do the however much money to their IRA or to their 529. And it’s like they get the fun gift they actually want, and then I’m giving them the gift for later. Okay, so what were some of the most shocking costs for you of being a parent? You’re like, where do I start?
Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. I think childcare is the first thing. Childcare is just a larger conversation about why this is so expensive. Setting up my… Actually, I did set up a trust two days before she was born. I probably was going to have my labor break in the office or my water break in the office of this trust attorney. That was pretty pricey to set up, but I think really important once you start having a family. I think it’s really vital. For a long time I was also like you, I don’t need a will. It’s never a fun day to get a colonoscopy or write a will.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Oh, and I know I need one, I just haven’t gotten around to it, even though that’s an excuse I’m making, right? But yeah, I think with the house now for me that is in a trust. And so that was something. Again, I think it’s a lot of these moments we have in life, so it’s like, oh, I’m about to be a homeowner, oh, I’m about to have a child, that makes us get our shit together, because we’re so often reactive, not proactive in these situations.
Nicole Lapin:
Totally. I think we look at it like we do health. When there’s a problem, we spring into action, but it’s really hard to eat healthy and do prophylactic stuff when there’s not a major issue. Yeah, and the same thing goes with finances. So we were like, wow, we’re two days away from having a human child, we need to get our shit together. So we did. And that was important to me.
We think about trust funds as this idea that passive money is handed off to spoiled rich kids, but it’s just not the case right now. I think modern trusts are really important tools used by families to do a lot, take care of aging parents, protect kids with special needs, leave a legacy for your kids and your grandkids, and ensure how you want this to play out. A trust is not for just the rich, it’s for smart people who want to take control of what their estate plan looks like. Everybody has a prenup, the state writes it. Everybody is going to have a plan regardless. It’s going to go through probate, which sucks. So whatever you can do to avoid that. And right now there are a lot of online platforms and estate planning lawyers that can set one up for under $1,000.
Tori Dunlap:
Trust and Will is one that we partnered with.
Nicole Lapin:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. So you mentioned child care. This is the one that we talk all the time, because it’s like a second rent payment or a second mortgage payment. How can parents think strategically about actually affording it, that isn’t Dave Ramsey’s send them to a free summer camp?
Nicole Lapin:
This is, by the way, I think how I discovered you back in the day.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, it was me dunking on Dave?
Nicole Lapin:
Yes. And I was like, yes, girl. Thank God. I love you. Keep going.
Tori Dunlap:
He drives me fucking bonkers, Nicole. Walmart Santa, he’s driving me crazy. But I mean, infamously, he said, I think it was last year, he was like, “Okay, daycares, childcare is expensive, send your kids to a free summer camp.” And I was like, “Where are those, Dave? Show me the free summer camps. Show me where those are.”
Nicole Lapin:
The zero credit score makes me want to blow my brains out.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, it’s awful. So how can we afford it? This is a complex question where childcare should not be this expensive. This is a systemic issue. How can parents navigate it?
Nicole Lapin:
It shouldn’t be this issue for sure. And I think that it’s really hard to navigate no matter what. It’s a constant battle, especially for women, like, am I basically just working for childcare? So should I be the childcare? And I thought that we had savings set up. And we’re really fortunate to be able to afford childcare, especially in the early days we actually had a baby nurse that we saved for, and that was really important, especially to safeguard against postpartum depression for me. That baby nurse also lost everything that she owned in our home, which was a whole other situation. So we weren’t prepared for that. If you would’ve asked me the top 10,000 things that I was worried about, and I am a worrier, that was not one of them.
And so there’s no great answer to this. I don’t have family to help take care of our daughter, so I needed to really come up with my own savings that could have gone somewhere else, but you make choices with it. It’s a battle every single day to be able to think about justifying what should be taken care of by the government, but is not.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and what you’re kind of mentioning, there’s this mom guilt when saying no to expensive activities, to childcare options. You feel like you have to do it all yourself. How do you suggest parents set financial and emotional boundaries without feeling like they’re failing their kids or taking it all on themselves?
Nicole Lapin:
Well, I mean, it’s the idea of putting your oxygen mask on first is really great in theory, is really hard in practice. Where financial experts will say, of course, invest in your retirement, invest in your own accounts before your kids, because you can take loans.
Tori Dunlap:
Get out a loan for college.
Nicole Lapin:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You can’t take out a loan for your own retirement. Yeah.
Nicole Lapin:
Totally. End up on their couch when you’re old and need them to take care of you. That’s more of a burden than not contributing to a 529 or something like that. There’s no easy answer to this. And it’s also really colored by how you grow up. And there’s a lot of pressure to do it better or do it right or do it differently. Even things like changing the way that I talk about money. My daughter can’t talk yet, but I think about hearing for so long, we can’t afford that or money doesn’t grow on trees, right? How has does that color the way we look at money? Instead, perhaps could we say instead of we can’t afford that, we’re choosing to spend our money on something else right now, or money doesn’t grow on trees? Could we say, my husband talk about this, money grows when we invest it or save it? That’s where money grows, it grows in a brokerage. It doesn’t grow on trees.
But I think that that mindset shift is really important for parents to think about, where they can see money as a tool and not a limitation. And it starts with just how you approach it, because regardless of what you do, so you could do a custodial Roth IRA, you could do an UTMA and UGMA, you could do a 529. All these things that we’re doing for our daughter to set her up to be in a better financial situation or have better financial background than we did, but it’s really how we interact with money. They’re watching everything you’re doing. So anytime somebody’s like, “How do I create millionaire kids?” I’m like, “Well, how are you with money? Are you hoarding? Are you spending like crazy? Are you hiding purchases? They’re watching everything that you’re doing.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. I have spoken a lot about the financial education my parents gave me, and it was because both of them, especially my dad, did not grow up with a lot. And so they were like, “Okay, we’re going to teach her how to be good with money.” And so I get asked like, “Okay, what did your parents do,” or, “How can I give kids, my children the financial education you had?” And you’re exactly right. One of the best things they did is it was showing, not telling. So it was, okay, we are taking family vacations every year and that’s a priority for us. And they would have conversations of, “We’re taking this vacation, so we can’t afford to go out to eat all the time,” or, “Okay, we are saving a portion of our income,” and teaching me how to do that. And showing me that if I bought this thing, well, that was great, but that meant I couldn’t have this other thing. And all of that was demonstrated to me not just hearing one thing and then them doing another.
Nicole Lapin:
That’s amazing.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I’m very lucky [inaudible 00:23:46].
Nicole Lapin:
I love that for you.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s probably the best gift they gave me, to be honest. Was just so helpful. Okay, so another hard money lesson is around investing and saving. So in your new book, The Money School, you emphasize not just throwing money in, but actually understanding the stock market. For someone who is out of debt, has an emergency fund and is ready to invest, what is that smart first step?
Nicole Lapin:
I think the smart first step, first of all, some of the accounts we talked about, one of the things that I see people do is fund the account, which is an awesome first step, but not actually allocate where that money is going.
Tori Dunlap:
I talk about this all the time, Nicole. All the time.
Nicole Lapin:
Put money into an IRA, amazing, but not actually put that money to work. All of these are basically vehicles, right? So you actually have to determine where the money in the 529 goes, where the money in the IRA goes, where the money in your retirement account goes. So if you’re starting a brokerage for the first time, I know it sounds basic, but make sure that money is allocated, that it’s not just sitting there in your brokerage because that’s not investing.
And so yeah, if you’re just starting out, I wish I could go back in time and put money in just a broad based market index fund. And everybody talks about these low cost S&P 500 index funds. There’s two kinds of index funds, right? There’s of the mutual fund family and of the ETF family. The ETF family is like VOO or SPY or IVV. Those types of ETFs are lower cost. And I think that paying attention to what those costs are will matter in the long run. So the mutual fund variety will just have a little bit of a higher cost and expense ratio. So if you’re just starting for the first time, that’s awesome. You can put that money in there, but just make sure that that money is going to work.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. And to say it a different way, I always give the example of it’s like a gift card. I put $50 in a T.J.Maxx gift card, I need to go buy the plants and candles and throw pillows now or else the money’s just sitting there. And that’s what happens is we think it’s like a bank account, we put money in the Roth IRA, we put money in the 401k or in the general brokerage account, which is just a general investing account, not for any particular purpose. And you’re like, “Cool, I’m done because I deposited money.” You have to go choose your investments. So that’s what Nicole’s talking about, of choosing something like an index fund, which includes a bunch of different companies as opposed to just trying to cherry-pick stocks. You’ve also said that the order of operations of money often gets messed up. What is that order for you? And I’m interested to hear if it’s the same order that I prescribed, too.
Nicole Lapin:
The order for me has become paying myself first. It had not been that for many, many years. What’s your order?
Tori Dunlap:
Mine is emergency fund first always, always, always. I don’t care how much debt you have, it has to be… And I am now at it is a minimum three months of living expenses before you actually move on to any other goal.
Nicole Lapin:
I think that that’s really, really important to prioritize, to make sure that you feel safe, whatever that is for you. So like three to six months. If you have more precarious job, maybe a little bit longer. This is really hard to put an emergency fund in place, of course, for somebody that is struggling to put anything away. I would encourage having that pay interest, too. So when you hear having that in cash, I grew up in an immigrant family where literally that wasn’t cash, it was under the sink, behind the Maxi pads, in green, wrinkled cash bills. And I think that even that is an opportunity to start accumulating interest, right? We worked so hard for our money, Tori, I just wish it returned the favor earlier in my life.
And so yeah, even with that emergency fund, it’s something that you don’t want locked up in an exotic investment, but high-yield savings account is the easiest thing you can possibly do. A money market account, easiest thing to start earning a little bit of interest on that money. And if you don’t, we have inflation and it’s going to eat into that regardless.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Nicole Lapin:
But I think even when I’m looking at how I’m going to parent or how I’m going to talk to my daughter about money, these basic things we don’t learn in school, and so that’s why I wrote that book. I was so tired after so many years of saying, “Why isn’t this not taught in school?” And so as my fifth book, I just did something about it. And I think that right now, because it’s not in curriculum, it’s incumbent on us as parents to implement just some of these basic fundamental ideas of interests. Can you start a family bank, where there’s save, spend, share? By the way, this is not just a lesson for kids, this can be a lesson for everybody. And see how interest works and see how compounding works. Yeah, I wish I would’ve learned that much earlier.
But there are easy ways to try to think about what does investing look like for a child, too. It needs to be age appropriate of course, but it’s a lesson for all of us. It’s a reminder for all of us, I think, that the power of money is to use that to make more money for you. I wish I knew that much earlier, because my order of operations was to spend that money and not have it grow.
Tori Dunlap:
When you think about the mistakes that you see people make when saving money or investing money, I think that one, it sounds like you and I both talk about a lot, which is funding the account but not actually investing. What other mistakes are you seeing people make?
Nicole Lapin:
Oh. I think that around, I know that this feels like a sore subject, but I think around this idea of estate planning, I’m just really into it because of my daughter. I think basic things get missed. We do a lot of proactive, helpful financial hygiene, but sometimes a basic thing like a payable on death or transfer on death form at the bank or with your brokerage doesn’t get filled out. These are beneficiaries. These are important. We’re going to live forever and ever at the end and live happily ever after. Hopefully, that’s for both of us and everybody listening. But if not, I think it’s the responsible thing to do, especially if you have kids, to make sure those things are filled out.
And so some of the mistakes I see is like, okay, I had a will. I’m not going to go through probate, which is hell when you’re grieving somebody that you love, and then you also have to deal with the court system. So those are one of the things that I see around taking care of your own estate planning even in the most basic way. So go to the bank and get a potter, Todd.
Tori Dunlap:
I think one of the most common mistakes I see is exactly what you’re just talking about, of not putting your money in a high-yield savings account. I talk about it so much because it’s so easy. It’s the easiest thing you can do for your money that immediately makes it work harder for you, as opposed to keeping it in your mattress, keeping it in the bank account your dad helped you open when you were 16. It immediately just helps with every other aspect of your money in terms of, again, the tangible of making you more money, but also the momentum of, cool, I did something easy and simple that it had a pretty immediate impact. I want to keep going. I want to keep thinking about how I can pay off my debt. I want to keep thinking about how I can save more money. And I think that’s super important.
Nicole Lapin:
Yeah, it’s the momentum.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Right. And it’s like the building of the smart financial habits, just being like, okay, I know what to do now.
Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. And I think the order of operations too with the debt. So I was in a bunch of credit card debt, and this was also quite embarrassing, because I was covering financial news at the time. So there you go, sometimes a shoemaker walks barefoot.
Tori Dunlap:
We’re real people, everybody.
Nicole Lapin:
We are. I think paying off debt in the wrong order, too. I think that some of the momentum is really important when you think about the snowball method versus an avalanche method. For me, as soon as I needed to tackle that debt, I knew that I needed to at least tell myself what my interest rates were. And I see that and I understand the catharsis that can happen. Let’s say you have $100 and you have $100 bill that comes in for debt. And there you go, you’re just going to get rid of that. It’s cut it up, move on. But if it’s not a higher interest rate, then it might not be the best thing to pay off next. And I was really surprised how rich people use debt as not a bad word. Forever and ever, growing up as an immigrant-
Tori Dunlap:
It is an asset.
Nicole Lapin:
… family… Yeah. I would always hear, “If you don’t have money to buy something, you don’t buy it.” A house, a car, anything, even big ticket items. And so once I realized that, that became truly powerful.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Debt is one of those things that is shameful for poor people, but smart for rich people, right? And it even gets a rebrand. Debt is called leverage when a rich person’s doing it, and it’s why you see Adele take out a mortgage to buy her house, even though she could afford to buy that house outright, and it’s because she could be making more money in the stock market or in other investments than tying up that amount of cash in real estate, right? So the debt ends up being cheaper and can make her more money somewhere else.
Nicole Lapin:
Totally. And it’s just a percentage game. And I started as a poetry major, so I don’t know.
Tori Dunlap:
I did not know that. I majored in theater. Do you know this?
Nicole Lapin:
Gorgeous.
Tori Dunlap:
We’re both artistic nerds.
Nicole Lapin:
Same. Yeah, artists trapped in the business world. But I am not a math person. And I hear this a lot, I’m not a math person or I’m too old, right?
Tori Dunlap:
I’m not good with numbers.
Nicole Lapin:
Yeah, totally. Those are the most common three things I hear. I’m not a numbers person, I’m too old, and I don’t have enough money to start. And the numbers thing, I’m like, if I was a poetry major, if Tori was a theater major, anyone can figure it out. But really, it’s a percentage game. So if you’re getting around 7% historically in the stock market year over year, if you’re paying less than that on debt, you can take that spread or fancy word for the difference between that and actually earn more money. So when people talk about cheap money, they just mean that they’re borrowing at very low interest rates and they’re using that.
So for example, I borrow money and I’m looking at like SBA loans right now and the types of percentages there. So if I borrow money at 2% and I take that… For easy math, it’s $10,000, I borrow at 2% and I put that in the market, and I get, well, right now it’s rocking, 10%, let’s say. Then 10 – 2 is 8% overall, and that’s all it is. That’s what we talk about when we’re talking about leverage on big scales.
Tori Dunlap:
One of the things that you have been very transparent about in your experience was another hard lesson about imposter syndrome. Growing up in this financially unstable household, you have already mentioned today that you’ve carried a ton of shame around money. How did you go from wearing shoulder pads and hiding Maxi pads under your arms at your first big girl job, which iconic, by the way, to becoming the confident person who owns the room, owns your story?
Nicole Lapin:
Oh, what a journey. Lots of therapy, I think.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Nicole Lapin:
I still wear Maxi pads under my armpits sometimes. There are slightly fancier ones that are like armpit guards. I do have hyperhidrosis, so might be TMI, but I do sweat quite a bit, especially when I’m nervous. But yeah, I was looking for a job when I was 18 and just needed a job, and the only one that I was offered was in business. And I needed a job, so I thought I could figure it out. And the truth is we have figured out harder things than all this finance stuff.
And so I was on the floor of the Chicago Merck when I was 18. I thought the Merck was a mall. It was not, it was this stock exchange in Chicago. And figured it out just in the school of hard knocks. And at some point I went from being an imposter and not being able to speak the language, having it all sound like Chinese to me, to speaking to the world and teaching other people. I’m the least likely person to do it.
And so I think it was an important journey for me to trust myself to ask basic questions, which I think a lot of people hide behind right now. Trying to sound fancy or trying to sound important or smart when they’re asking questions. So when I continued into the business news world and was anchoring on CNBC and Bloomberg and talking to a bunch of old rich, white dudes about money, a lot of times people wouldn’t stop and say, “What does that mean?” And so I knew that I had finally gotten close to the other side of imposter syndrome when I could say to a CEO or a politician, “What does that mean basically?” And trust myself that if I didn’t know and I was a smart enough person, then other people watching or listening wouldn’t know either.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I think that’s one of my biggest issues with financial journalism and also with so many people talking about money, especially men talking about money, is it’s like they withhold the gatekeeping so that they seem smart, they seem sophisticated, and that you give your money over to them. Because if they speak to you in a way they don’t understand, it makes all of this sound very complicated, and it’s really not that complicated. But the jargon and the gatekeeping is there so that they can make money off of making you feel like you’re too stupid to understand. You now are building your own money network, I think probably because you were tired of trying to fit into somebody else’s model of what success looks like. So what was that turning point for you where you’re like, I’m going to do this on my own?
Nicole Lapin:
I was 27, and at that point I was already on network news for a decade. And at that point, I didn’t see anybody that was… Suze Orman was the only one at the time, and this was almost 15 years ago. I just felt like nobody was talking to women like me or my former self about money in a way that wasn’t like Dave Ramsey or full of shame, or yelling at you not to buy a coffee, or all of these types of things. And so I tried to jump into that space when everybody told me at the time that I would kill my career. I got into major fights with my agents at the time. They were like, “Okay. Nice knowing you. You were on this great trajectory at this network news stuff to go onto the Today show and then go to the White House, and then go to the nightly news.” This was the news anchor trajectory back in the day. I was like, “That’s not how it’s going to work anymore.” And so, yeah, I burned my corporate bra and I never looked back.
Tori Dunlap:
When we’re talking about all of these lessons, these hard lessons that you’ve learned, that I’ve learned about money, you mentioned that the feeling of shame is there, right? And even for you now, that feeling of shame is there. This is the number one thing I encounter with our 5 million people in our community, our 5 million women, which is I feel shame about my past choices, I feel shame that I don’t know enough, I beat myself up about decisions that I made even if I didn’t know better. How can we work through that shame in a productive way?
Nicole Lapin:
So Brene Brown says that there’s difference between shame and guilt, right? Guilt is I made a mistake, shame is I am a mistake. And I think that understanding that we all would’ve done better with more information is so powerful. Forgiving your former self for what she didn’t know, but understanding that moving forward now you have the tools and all these women that are listening to you have the tools to do better. So I think it’s a combination of forgiveness and tough love, and saying, yes, I forgive my former self, but it’s not okay anymore. I can do better moving forward. That’s how I’ve approached it, the best antidote to shame is truth.
And to be really, really honest and look at those numbers finally, because they’re not as bad as you probably think. I’m into stoicism too, where we suffer more in imagination than in reality. And I would do this all the time, I would just be like, “Oh, my God, I’m not opening my credit report because I’m going to jail. I’m just going to jail. I think that the letter’s going to say, ‘You’re arrested. You’re going to die in jail.'” We come up with crazy stories. We all do. Our imaginations are so wild and powerful.
Tori Dunlap:
The other thing I have started telling the women in my community is you think I feel stressed about money, so I’m not going to look at it. You think the money is the thing that’s stressing you. The thing that’s stressing you is having no idea or control about it, right? It’s like getting in a car and driving without having a gas gauge. It’s like the stress is not, oh, I can see that I don’t have a lot of gas. The stress is I could break down at any time with no cell phone reception in the middle of the night in a place I don’t know, on the side of the road. That’s the stress. So when you’re trying to prevent yourself from feeling stressed about money by not looking at it, that’s actually the thing that’s causing you the stress and the anxiety.
Nicole Lapin:
It’s like the second arrow idea. It’s not the first arrow, I mean we all have the bad things that happen to us, it’s the thing that we add on top of that, and that’s the choice, right? It’s like the bad thing sucks, but how much do we add on top of that that’s in our control? Because the first arrow, whatever that bad thing is, is not in our control, but how we respond to it, is. And it’s hard. Trust me, I say this and it’s so easy in theory when you’re not in the thick of something. And then when you’re in the thick of something, you’re like, yeah, I heard Nicole and Tori talk about this. I understand this in theory. In practice it’s the hardest thing you could possibly do. But yeah, the thing that has worked for me is that it’s actually not as bad as I imagine it to be, especially with finances.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I mean, I think that’s a perfect way to sum up the conversation, which is like you do things proactively so that when you’re in the moment, again, that doesn’t have to be something you’re stressed about or concerned about, right? It’s like, you know what? I did something that felt really hard when things were more normal, so that the hard thing, I can be a hundred percent present for the hard thing as opposed to wondering how I’m going to navigate it.
Nicole Lapin:
Totally. And it’s hard to navigate curveballs that come your way. Like I said, I tried to plan for a thousand different things that could go wrong. And worrying never prevented the bad thing that ended up happening. And I am such a worrier. It doesn’t matter what’s in my bank account. It still doesn’t. My biggest fear has always been, and I’ve said this many times, being broke, alone, and homeless and dying in the gutter, and it’s irrational. It’s completely irrational. It makes no sense.
And what’s helped me is making the videotape go forward. So, okay, let’s assume that I am homeless, which I was this year, so my biggest fear came true. So what happens then? Before I was married, I would say I’d live with my best friend, Tracy. I’d move in, and then what would happen after that? I would wear her clothes. I would figure it out. And so I think really sitting in those fears are the way to say, okay, that thing could happen for sure. I could be homeless. Even though I thought it was the most far-fetched on the planet, it happened to me and we were okay.
So no matter what that thing that’s yours, we all have the greatest hits of fears. And I think it’s unrealistic to say, well, just don’t worry about them. No.
Tori Dunlap:
You are. No.
Nicole Lapin:
It’s like recognizing. I think of it as a stream kind of, with a bunch of logs coming down with these thoughts of rumination like, oh, hey, fear of being broke, alone, and homeless and dying in the gutter, nice to see you. Hey, thinking about your ex, or something like that. Okay, I see you. That’s a thought.
Tori Dunlap:
And it can continue down the street.
Nicole Lapin:
Yeah, that’s right.
Tori Dunlap:
My final question for you, how do we take these hard moments in our lives and actually learn from them?
Nicole Lapin:
That’s a brilliant question. For me, it has… God, I’m going to cry.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t mean to Barbara Walters you. I’m sorry.
Nicole Lapin:
Thank you so much. I have a tattoo that says, “There will be time.” And I remind myself that there is time for all the things you want to do. To build, to destroy, to create, to love, all of the things that you want, there will be time to do them. And there are seasons, and the thing you can’t rush is the time to heal through whatever has happened to you. So I wish you could rush that time. I wish I could get to the other side of this ick right now, I’m still in the thick of it coming back to life.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, of course you are.
Nicole Lapin:
But I remind myself that there will be time. And I remind myself that hopefully I’ll do better the next time. I might not, but I’ll do a little bit better.
Tori Dunlap:
But also just give yourself grace. It’s like, yeah, I mean, you were in a literal perfect storm. You could have checked off every box for stressful scenario in your life, and then God, the universe, whatever you want to call it was like, have a little more. Let’s give you a little more. That’s a lot to handle. And I love what you said earlier about just there’s no use in beating yourself up for past mistakes. I always say, if shame works, it would’ve worked by now. It would’ve worked by now. If making yourself feel like a piece of shit for your previous choices or your previous mistakes would’ve worked to change your behavior, it would’ve worked by now. And so it’s like, what if you offer yourself mercy and grace, and then you say, okay, I know better, I’m going to do better now? Yeah.
Nicole Lapin:
I love that. And really trying to talk to yourself like your friends would.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Or like you would to your partner or your daughter, your favorite person.
Nicole Lapin:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m really, really, really sorry, I can’t say that enough, for everything that’s happened, but I’m also so excited for the birth of your daughter and excited for a phoenix to rise from the ashes in a really, really difficult moment. You have this new book out, please plug away. Tell people where they can find it.
Nicole Lapin:
Thank you, Tori. Anywhere you can get your favorite books, you can get The Money School. And it’s everything that I wish I learned in school and we all wish we learned in school, but didn’t, and it’s how to gain financial independence so that when bad things, not if bad things happen, because they will, you’ll be able to take one issue off the table. And if you have some bit of savings to grow, I think that in the worst case scenario, having your own back is one less thing you have to worry about when you have to worry about everything else.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep, I love it. Thank you.
Nicole Lapin:
Thanks, Tori.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you to Nicole for joining us and for her vulnerability. There’s something about hearing these personal stories, even if you’ve just heard them on the news, that just hits you in a different way. And I’m so thankful both for her work and also for her sharing her story. You can get her brand new book, The Money School, wherever books are sold. And thank you for coming on the show, Nicole. Thank you as always, Financial Feminist, for listening to this episode. If this is an episode and a conversation that sparked inspiration for you, that you want to use to spark conversation with others, please feel free to share it. And if you’re watching on YouTube right now, I would love for you to subscribe so you don’t miss a future episode. Thank you for being here. We’ll talk to you soon. Bye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist a Her First $100K podcast. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Research by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Daryl Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Meghan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
