If money conversations keep turning into fights, it’s not because you’re bad with money, it’s because you were never taught how to talk about it together.
In today’s episode I’m joined by Andy Hill, award-winning family finance coach, host of Marriage, Kids & Money, and author of Own Your Time, to talk about why money fights are rarely about money, how invisible labor and emotional labor quietly erode relationships, and what it actually takes to build a life that feels aligned instead of exhausting. We unpack how to stop repeating the same financial arguments, how to communicate more equitably with your partner, and how to redefine success so time (not just money) becomes your most valuable currency. Whether you’re partnered, parenting, or just rethinking what “having it all” really means, this conversation will help you build a life you don’t need to escape from.
Key takeaways:
Money fights are rarely about money.
Andy explains that when couples argue about spending or saving, they’re often really arguing about deprivation, control, fear, or identity. One partner may feel starved for time, while the other feels deprived of joy or autonomy. Until couples name what’s underneath the numbers, the same arguments will keep resurfacing.
Invisible labor must be acknowledged before it can be shared.
Household management, childcare logistics, and emotional labor don’t disappear just because one partner earns more money. Andy emphasizes that equity—not necessarily 50/50—is what builds trust, and that intentional conversations (not reactive ones) are essential for creating fairness at home.
Time freedom starts with clarity, not quitting your job.
Building a life you don’t need to escape from begins with dreaming—actually defining what you would do with more time. Andy argues that many people chase freedom without knowing what freedom looks like to them, which is why financial success alone doesn’t lead to happiness.
The “work hard now, live later” model is broken.
Andy challenges the idea that grinding for 40 years guarantees fulfillment, pointing out that health, energy, and time aren’t guaranteed in retirement. Instead, he advocates for a middle ground where people intentionally design lives that allow for joy, rest, and presence now—not someday.
Communication, not perfection, is what creates financial harmony.
Healthy partnerships aren’t free of conflict; they’re built on regular, intentional conversations. Andy stresses that setting aside time to talk calmly about money, labor, and goals—and sometimes involving a third party like a therapist—can prevent resentment from quietly destroying a relationship.
Financial security is what makes life pivots possible.
Having savings and a financial cushion gives people the confidence to change careers, reduce hours, or renegotiate roles at home. Andy highlights that financial preparation isn’t about fear—it’s about giving yourself options and the ability to course-correct when something isn’t working.
Notable quotes
“Marriage is a verb. It is constant action, and it requires you to continue to work at it.”
“Financial independence isn’t about never working again; it’s about having the choice to work less and live more.”
“If someone wants to reclaim their time, the first thing they should do is spend five to ten minutes thinking about what they would actually do with that time.”
Episode at-a-glance
00:00 Intro
00:47 Why You Need to Dream About Your Time
01:49 The Mailbox Exercise: What Would You Stop Doing?
03:09 The FaceTime Birthday That Changed Everything
05:15 Karaoke Duets & Life Priorities
06:03 Debunking “Keep Your Head Down Until 65”
08:53 When Money Becomes Your Currency vs. Time
11:45 The Identity Crisis of Leaving Corporate
14:27 How to Know When a Role Isn’t Working
16:30 Emotional Labor & Equity in Marriage
20:30 The Volcano Fight: When Money Arguments Aren’t About Money
33:10 Financial Abuse & Protecting Yourself as a Stay-at-Home Parent
38:27 Prenups, Postnups & Why You Need One
41:27 The Expense That Saved Thousands Without Changing Happiness
43:38 Why Traditional FIRE Didn’t Work for Our Family
48:36 The Power of Pivoting & Financial Confidence
50:26 First Steps Toward Time Freedom
55:03 Small Steps to Reclaim Your Life
Andy’s Links:
Website: https://marriagekidsandmoney.com
Book: https://marriagekidsandmoney.com/book/
Visit herfirst100k.com/ffpod to stay up to date and find any resources mentioned on our show!
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Meet Andy
Andy Hill, AFC®️ is the award-winning family finance coach behind Marriage Kids and Money – a platform dedicated to helping families build wealth and happiness. Andy’s advice and personal finance experience have been featured in major media outlets like CNBC, Forbes, MarketWatch, Kiplinger’s Personal Finance and NBC News. With over 10 million podcast downloads and video views, Andy’s message of family financial empowerment has resonated with listeners, readers and viewers across the world. His debut book, “Own Your Time: 10 Financial Steps to Put Your Family First and Escape the Corporate Grind”, will be released in January 2026. When he’s not “talking money”, Andy enjoys being a Soccer Dad, singing karaoke with his wife and relaxing on his hammock.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
Today’s guest is going to share over 15 years of financial education for families in just 60 minutes. Andy Hill is an award-winning family finance coach behind Marriage Kids and Money, which is a platform dedicated to helping families build wealth and happiness. He has over 10 million downloads of his podcast and video views, and his message of financial family empowerment has resonated with listeners, readers, and viewers across the world. He has a debut book out called Own Your Time. And on today’s episode of the show, we are talking about how to stop fighting with your partner about money and how to stop fighting with them about invisible labor. The biggest mistakes you’re making when managing your family’s finances, regardless of if you have children or not, and realistic steps to build freedom so you can spend more time with the people that matter and less time doing the things that you hate.
Let’s get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. Andy, I’m so excited to have you back on the show. If someone listens no further than the first five minutes of this episode, what’s one thing that they could do today to get them closer to reclaiming their time?
Andy Hill:
Oh, wow. Well, I think if someone were to think, “Hey, I want to reclaim my time,” I think the first thing they should do is spend five to 10 minutes just thinking about what you would actually do with that time. So a lot of people, and you know it, Tori, once we get very busy in our lives, we forget to dream. We used to dream when we were kids all the time. What am I going to be? Where am I going to go? What am I going to do? And I think when we get to adulting, we stop. So I would say if somebody has some goal to have more of their time, you better be prepared to use that time wisely. There are a lot of people that we know that have retired and get into a depression because they don’t know what their identity is anymore because they used to be worker, worker, worker. You need to prepare now for what you want your life to look like when you do own more of your time. That would be my takeaway.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s so true because so many people say, “I don’t have enough time to do this thing or yeah, I hate my job and I want to do something different.” But when you ask them, “What do you actually want your life to look like? What does your day look like? What time do you get up? Do you go to work? If so, where are you working? Do you work for yourself?” Immediately the house of cards starts to crumble. And I think it’s so important for us to determine not just like, “I don’t like what my situation is now, but what would it look like if I had a second to think about it?
Andy Hill:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that is an exercise that we can all do. And I’m even encouraging myself as I’m saying it right now coming out of my mouth, that I could do a little bit more dreaming in the next like, “What does next five to 10 years look like for me in this dream life of mine? Because we only get this one life, so let’s take advantage of it.” And sometimes people have difficulty with the dreaming part, and that’s okay. One exercise that I like to talk about is looking at the mailbox. You just walked to your mailbox and there’s a $5 million check in there and it’s got your name on it and you can cash it. There’s no taxes. It’s not a crypto scam or anything like that. It’s just your money. It’s going to your account. What is the first thing that you stop doing when you have that money? So you can think of it from a reduction standpoint too. What would I stop doing if money weren’t an issue anymore? And that can be a fun part to dream as well.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. We haven’t really talked about your background pre-entrepreneurship, pre Marriage Kids and Money on the show. You spent 15 years in corporate event marketing, nights, weekends, constant travel. And I think knowing you that that was a huge part of why you started your business, why you started learning about personal finance was what we’re talking about this. I realized I didn’t like my life. So what was that moment when you realized this isn’t sustainable and this is not the life I want for myself or my family?
Andy Hill:
Yeah. Yeah. It was a slow-going kind of burn for a while there. I think I fell into the corporate event marketing career because it was really interesting. And I was out of college and it was like, who wouldn’t want to travel around the country and do cool things with cool brands? But as soon as I became married and I had somebody that I wanted to spend more of my time with because I love her so much and then we started having kids, I started to see, “Well, I prefer to have this family life more than this corporate life, but it’s kind of at odds because now I need this corporate life in order to pay for the family life.” So things started to feel a little conflicting, but I would say it came to a head probably around the time when I was in my third or fourth career in corporate event marketing and I was traveling and it was my daughter’s birthday.
I remember this specific one. I was on the show floor of one of these car or truck shows somewhere in the country, Las Vegas, Orlando. I have no idea where I was, but I remember that it was a sad day for me because I was FaceTiming my daughter and it was her seventh birthday and I just wasn’t there. I was there at this conference and she was talking to me. She had a big smile on her face for the FaceTime. My wife actually took a screenshot of it. So I actually have a visual in my brain of what my toothless little girl looked like when she was saying, “Dad, I love you. Please come home.” And it was just kind of broke my heart. And I’m like, “How do I get from here to being able to be there for the important moments more often?” And it was moments like that that kept pushing me towards wanting to own more of my time instead of giving it to the corporate world.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and Andy, I have to ask you a really, really important question which is you love your wife and you love doing karaoke with your wife. What’s your go to duet?
Andy Hill:
Our go to duet. Well, oh, lately it’s been, and I’m probably going to butcher the name of the song, but I’ve Had The Time of My Life.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, yeah, Time of My Life.
Andy Hill:
And then she asks me to do the lift and I’ve been working out lately, so I think I can get it down. That is our go to karaoke.
Tori Dunlap:
The lift for Dirty Dancing.
Andy Hill:
We did it at a party recently. Exactly. And it was successful. I think I did a leg lift as opposed to an arm lift, but I was on my back and I just put the legs up in the air and that was sufficient enough.
Tori Dunlap:
That is incredible. Okay. Well, we’re going karaokeing next time I see you. That’s insane.
Andy Hill:
Yes. It’s on.
Tori Dunlap:
The thing that you just said about realizing that moment of like, “Oh, I want to be there.” So many of us have that moment, but there’s some mindset issue that gets in the way where we’re like, “Well, I couldn’t do that though.” And I hear this a lot from my audience when they look at the business I’ve built, for example, and they go, “Well, there’s something there like, Oh, she has something I don’t. She had a degree I don’t have or she’s more confident than I am.” Or there’s something that prevents us from actually saying, “No, I’m going to pursue this other option that gives me more time.” And the first thing I have to say to that is like, Andy and I are not special and I don’t mean that as an insult to either of us, but we don’t have anything that you don’t have.
Yes, there’s privilege in every person’s story, but I don’t have a secret trait in my DNA that you listening don’t have. And I think there’s also something that happens with the way all of us were raised, especially in the United States where it’s like, no, we work really hard for 40 years and we keep our head down and we choose this one career and we stick with it forever and that’s how we’re going to finally like our lives is when we get to hopefully retire at 65. Debunk that myth for me of keep my head down, work really hard, I’ll figure it out, and then I’ll live my life when I’m 65.
Andy Hill:
The problem with that math problem, unfortunately, and you and I like numbers, is that the average age of death in our country is 78 years old, 75 for guys. Sorry, fellas. So that gives you what, 10 years to really live your life the way you want to do it. And between 65 and 75, if you haven’t been paying attention to your health, taking care of your physical health, that’s going to be a tough decade of your life physically. So all those vacations you’ve been putting off or all the things, “Hey, I’m going to do it when.” You might not feel up to it between 65 and 75 if you make it that long.
And I know you and I have known a lot of people that have waited that a long time to actually enjoy life. And then unfortunately that gets cut short, whether it’s cancer or other things that happen in life. So I’m not saying YOLO, but I am saying somewhere in the middle, right? Somewhere of like, “What can we do to enjoy our life now because the present moment is all we really have and plan for the future,” but not hard charge and grind it out and hate our lives and ask ourselves and our spouses to say, “Is this really as good as it gets?” If you’re asking yourself that constantly, you got to find a way to change things and I know that I needed to.
Tori Dunlap:
Rich people think about their currency differently. I think when you’re in a scarcity mindset, your currency is money. It is that currency. And then when you start realizing that time is actually the currency, everything in your mindset shifts. So how does someone whose current currency is money go from, “No, my currency is now time.”
Andy Hill:
Yeah, I would say that both are important. I wouldn’t say, “Hey, drop everything you’re doing and just own more of your time today and start doing all the things you’re interested in.” It is important to take care of your finances. It is important to make sure you have enough saved in an emergency fund so you are taking care of yourself just in case worst case scenario happens. And if you’re taking care of a family, even more so. It is important to invest for retirement so that you can have enough in retirement, but do you need multi, multi, multi-millions in order to feel really, really comfortable in retirement?
And are you going to even have enough time to use all that money in retirement and you’re going to die with millions? What’s that nice middle ground of taking care of your finances and making sure you’re in a comfortable spot and then also not grinding away forever? There’s got to be a good middle ground. And my wife and I have been exploring this. We’ve been interviewing people for almost a decade in this middle ground area because I really think it exists and it doesn’t require us to grind it out until we’re 60.
Tori Dunlap:
That, what you just said of, okay, you and your wife you had told me before are working about three days a week. There’s a way to find that where you still have purpose, you still have work, but you also have the flexibility you need to live your life. And I think the first thing somebody can do to switch from money into time is just asking yourself like, “How much is my time actually worth?” If you are paid hourly, that’s very easy, right? You can very definitively say, “Okay, this is what somebody is compensating me at this point. How do I work to increase that compensation?” But for people who work salary or who are business owners, so much of our time is spent doing things that don’t make us more money, that don’t free up our schedule to do the things that we want. And so your question is first, how do I think about how much money I’m making per hour? What is my time worth and how can I think about changing that to put more time back in my pocket?
Andy Hill:
Absolutely. I think that’s a great place to start. And we talk about managing our money and making sure we’re utilizing it according to our values. How about managing our time in the same way? Are we looking at our calendars and saying, “Am I spending my time in accordance with my values and my goals and my dreams? Is it moving me towards the life that I want to have?” And yes, money as a tool can be super powerful in helping you move in that direction, but it also comes with the intentionality that you are saying no to the things that don’t move you in that direction. I love that Bruce Lee quote, “Hack away at the unessential.” The things that you have in your life that you’re doing that aren’t moving you in that direction, just slowly chip away at those things because it’ll help you to live an intentional life and one that you are not asking yourself the question, “Is this how life is supposed to be?” You can say, “Yes, this is how life is supposed to be. I am so excited about how intentionally I’m living it.”
Tori Dunlap:
When you walked away from your career, you said you had a identity crisis of walking away from this prestigious, high paying job that probably looked good on paper and was the American dream of like, “Oh, I got a good job and I have a decent salary and I have a good title.” How do you navigate the expectations the world puts on you, especially around things like masculinity, earning status, when you instead chose this very family first plan?
Andy Hill:
Yeah, it’s tough, honestly, because my wife and I fell into this trap of the traditional path. She was a stay-at-home mom, I think, for five years. And so my mail default was like, “Hey, go grind it out in the corporate world, man, and put as many hours as possible into it.” And what we both found from that is that we both didn’t like those traditional roles. She said, “I want to do a little bit of work. These kids are driving me nuts. It sounds great to be able to sit at a laptop and type away at some emails and drink some coffee and talk to some coworkers.” And I’m like, “The same thing.” I’m like, “I do not like traveling and grinding it out and being on an airplane, sleeping on an airplane and thinking about work on Saturday and then getting the Sunday scaries.” And it’s like I never stopped thinking about work. So there has to be some sort of middle ground. So I did have an identity crisis, yes. When I said, “That’s enough, I’m going to try something new.”
It was as if I wanted to try out all these new identities all at once and it all hit me at once. I wanted to be the best father I could ever be. I wanted to be a fantastic husband. I want to volunteer in my community. I was the only guy that joined the PTO in our local community to help out at school. I wanted to volunteer more. I wanted to make my business explode and be the best entrepreneur ever. The reality at that moment though was a big identity crisis. You can’t do all those things, man. You only have 168 hours in a week. How are you going to do this and sleep and take care of your health? And so at that moment, it was a big opportunity for me to say, “Okay, what does a good life look like that has a good balance of all those things?” And five years in, have I perfected it? Absolutely not, but I’m having a great time experimenting and figuring out what works in this current season of our lives.
Tori Dunlap:
How do you determine if the role you’ve chosen isn’t working?
Andy Hill:
I think it has to come with experimentation and then living in it for a little while and feeling it. So there were a couple of those roles that I started to wear where I said, “Okay, I’m going to be the most present father I could ever be.” And then the pandemic came in and said, “Okay, you want those kids at home for Zoom school and kindergarten?”
Tori Dunlap:
Challenge accepted.
Andy Hill:
“Challenge on, man.” And that was like one of those things where it smacked me in the face where it’s like, “Oh, you want to be a present dad? How about all the time?” You’re like, “Well, maybe not all the time. Maybe I would like to work a little bit. Maybe I’d like to get out of this house just a little bit.” And to be able to experience both fatherhood and young parenthood sanity at the same time. So I think living in those things, breathing in them, experiencing them for yourself, not hearing voices, even mine or Tori’s telling you what you should do or what you should consider, like actually experiencing it yourself and saying, “What fits for me in this season of life?” And again, things change. What I was interested in five years ago, I’m not that interested in any more five years later. That’s okay. That’s the reality of impermanence in our life. Things do not stay the same all the time. We are ever moving. We are changing. We’re like a river, man. And so we have to follow and flow with it and be willing to change.
Tori Dunlap:
With these roles, we’ve talked so much on this show. Show is called Financial Feminist. We can’t host the show without talking about the emotional labor that typically women are doing, but in a partnership or in a relationship, typically one person is doing a lot of the emotional labor, the childcare, the household work, the, “Oh, we’ve got tee-ball practice tonight and it’s snack day for our family and we got to bring the oranges and the string cheese.” How have you and your wife figured out a balance knowing that these roles have changed and shifted as your life has changed and shifted?
Andy Hill:
Yeah. It’s been a very interesting experiment, both socially, societally, even just as a man, what does it mean to be a man? And I love the evolution of fatherhood that I’ve been seeing in the media just online through other thought creators out there about what it means to be a dad over the past maybe five to 10 years. I think it’s really cool. But yeah, 10 years ago, we were very traditional. So I didn’t respond to the play date texts to make sure that the kids were getting where they needed to go.
Tori Dunlap:
You probably weren’t even on the group chat.
Andy Hill:
I wasn’t even on it, man. Yeah. They didn’t even include me. And so 10 years later now, it’s one of those things where we’re trying our best to have some equity in our marriage. And that includes not only the earning side of things, but also the childcare side of things. And our kids are a little older now. We have an 11-year-old and a 13-year-old. So managing Zoe’s play dates is not really a part of our repertoire anymore. But when it comes to what’s going on with Calvin and his life, yes, we do these things where we now have a group text of both the mother and the father, as well as our mother, the parents in our house. So we’re coordinating it together as a group. And I deliberately add the dad in too, because sometimes it’s just me, my wife and the other mom, I deliberately add the dad in.
Even if it’s just like, “Hey, a preview.” And I’m more often than not surprised at how involved they are too, at least in our community, which has been very nice. So there’s that. There’s the honest truth that yeah, 10 years ago, I wasn’t making very many dinners and that’s very traditional of me. Lately now, I’ve been priding myself on at least having some parody with how many dinners we’re making in the evenings and making sure it’s healthy food. And so my wife and I take turns with that because she said to me, she’s like, “I like dinner too. I would really like that to be made for me.” And I’m like, “Absolutely. Well, let me jump in there and be a better husband in that fashion.” And it helps a lot when you get a meal kit because it kind of takes away the anxiety of what am I going to make each week.
And I loved it. And it’s been something, at least a couple nights a week, I’m making dinner, she’s doing the same thing. And then when the weekend rolls around, we just order in or go out or whatever and just make it a little easier. But things like that help it to feel a little bit more fair, help it to feel a little more balanced and both of us appreciate it. We’re taking turns taking the kids to their activities and things like that. So these are things that I didn’t used to do because she was full on. She was 100% taking care of all that stuff while I was gone because I needed to be. And so with both of us working three days a week, we’re able to both jump in and help this family system run.
Tori Dunlap:
I know there are listeners out here scrambling to send this to their husbands. They are scrambling to send this episode to their partners and let this be a great opportunity for you to have this conversation because my next question is, there is somebody listening. There are probably many people, many women listening who go, “That sounds idyllic. That is not the marriage I’m in right now.” And one of the things I think you and Nicole are so great at is communication even when it’s difficult and then talking about how you communicate. So if somebody finds themselves in an inequitable relationship, how do they start bridging that conversation?
Andy Hill:
Yeah, I think it needs to start at home. And the problem that at least I’ve seen with couples is that there’s not any time set aside for those conversations. Having these really difficult ones in passing is really bad because it can be heated, it can almost come off as accusatory. So if you do that in passing on your way out the door or, “Hey, you could really help out with this more. I got to talk to you later about it. Bye.” No, no. We need to have set aside time and make it fun. It could be coffee on Saturday morning. It could be dinner. It could be just like how can we have these types of conversations in a calm manner, but also coming at it more from the feeling side of things as opposed to accusatory. I feel really taken care of when you participate in getting our kids to soccer practice.
I feel like we are in a relationship that feels fair when you make dinner every once in a while. Those could be great conversations to have. Now, will the responses be exactly what you want? Maybe not right away, but this can come with time. Just like the gender societal norms that we’ve had for a couple hundred years have taken a while to start degradating down to a way that feels more equitable and fair. So two might be these conversations that you have with your spouse, and that might be 1% improvements over months or years, but if it’s important to you, it’s good to start them. Now, if you get that automatic block, “I don’t even want to talk about that. I’m not interested in that,” but it’s very important to you. There’s nothing wrong with getting a third party to support you in those types of conversations.
It doesn’t have to be marriage counseling is only for cheating spouses or when this thing’s about to end, marriage counseling can be for that middle ground of like, “Hey, we just need a little bit of support here in order to build up this marriage and this relationship in a way that makes us both feel like we’re being taken care of.” And we have partners, I think the problem with marriage sometimes is that people think that once they sign that paper, they say, “I do,” they’ve done marriage. It’s like, “No, man, marriage is a verb. It is constant action and it requires you to continue to work at it and improve at it.” Otherwise, it will degrade and it’ll be a relationship that neither one of you want to be in five, 10 years, 15 years down the road. And I know a lot of parents have stayed in relationships or older parents have stayed in it because of religious reasons or just because you’re supposed to.
And that can be something that maybe some of us have learned watching that being like, “Well, I guess I’m supposed to.” But you can also work to improve things if they don’t feel good and a third party can really help you to do that. And I will say from experience, our marriage counselor has been fantastic for us. In the beginning, I did have that traditional mindset of like going to marriage counseling, I feel like a failure, but not a month into it, I said, “Wow, this is the best thing for our relationship. I feel like I’m getting a personal trainer for my marriage, for my communication, for my ability to empathize with my wife.” So I would highly recommend it if you’re having difficulty just having those conversations at home in front of … cup of coffee or something simple.
Tori Dunlap:
My partner of nearly four years and I see a therapist and it’s so, so helpful just to communicate better. We started going because we both were like, “We love each other. We’re not communicating as effectively as we need to and we need to bring somebody else in to help with that.” So I completely agree. One thing that you said that I want to touch on that was so important is the way you bridge the conversation, you notice what Andy said everybody is he said, “I feel so great when you do this.” Not, “You’re not doing this.” Or even, “I feel like shit because you’re not doing this.” It is instead an invitation and confirmation, and especially if you’re a woman married to a man, my own therapist has given me this advice for my partner where you have to phrase it as like, “I love when you do these things.”
And then he goes, “Oh, okay, I’m going to do these things more.” It feels ridiculous. It feels like you shouldn’t have to phrase it that way, but I think that’s a great way of broaching these conversations is rather than definitely not accusatory or even, “I don’t feel great because you’re not doing this.” It’s so great to say, “I feel so loved or so appreciated when you do this thing.” Or, “I know our kids love when they see you at school pickup.” There’s ways to broach this conversation more productively to hopefully get the thing that you want.
Andy Hill:
Yeah. And I’ll admit it, Tori, I’m a words of affirmation guy and that goes both ways.
Tori Dunlap:
Me too.
Andy Hill:
So if I get some positive affirmations from my wife, I am like a little puppy dog, but on the opposite end, if I get negative words, I am like, I will shut down, I will stop talking, I will walk away, I will disengage. So I am a human though. I mean, I am not a robot, like this is how I’m made. And so this is how I like to be loved. And some people like to be loved differently, but it’s important to seek out those ways your partner likes to be loved and learn them because it can help to make them feel loved and appreciated. And that’s really hopefully what we’re looking for in a relationship.
Tori Dunlap:
Just the way you’re talking about the relationship is so positive where it’s two people who take this very seriously, take this responsibility of marriage very seriously. I mean, I know you’re not a couple’s counselor. My answer is always like, “Leave him.” But what if you are having this conversation with somebody who is in denial or is not willing to come to the table with you to talk about either talking about money at the very basic level or talking about something more serious like the distribution of labor?
Andy Hill:
Yeah. I think like we talked about, it’s got to start within your house at home with a real attempt to try to get away from the distractions of life that could be, “Hey, I’ve got young children and we never have time to talk.” Okay, this is super important. Can you get a babysitter? Can you get out of the house? Can you make this a priority like a doctor’s appointment like, “Hey, I found something on my back and they’re not sure it’s cancer. I got to make sure that I get to this doctor’s appointment.” Same thing here. This is very, very important. Make sure you’re getting out of the distractions of life and making this a priority. Spend some money at it, like make this a priority. Okay, let’s say you’ve done that, they’re not receptive, they’re not even having it, they’re not interested. Then yes, that third party has to be the next route there.
And I wouldn’t sit on that too long because that festers and it almost gets worse. You can get to a point in a relationship where if you let that stuff fester for too long on both sides, that it becomes hard to come back from. So I would hit up that marriage counselor as quick as possible if you’re finding that your spouse or your partner is not receptive to those conversations. I would say there’s a lot of success that can come from working with a professional that understands how to communicate well in a relationship. I know I had a lot of success, I’ve had a lot of friends that have gone down that route and had success. That being said, that’s okay. If it gets to that point where you’ve tried, you personally making a major effort to communicate and then getting professional help and it still doesn’t work out, there’s nothing wrong with changing your situation if you need to with regard to your marriage.
That is a reality, fortunately or unfortunately of 40 to 50% of marriages out there. Now, if you can honestly pat yourself on the back and say, “I went through those first two steps as hard as I could. I gave it my all for my relationship for my children, good on you. That’s great.” And then if you need to move towards separation, divorce, those types of conversations, get professional help there as well so you go down the path in a-
Tori Dunlap:
Get a lawyer.
Andy Hill:
Yes, exactly. A lawyer to ensure that you are doing this in the best financial way possible because if there is separation that’s happening, it’s important for you to have autonomy with your money and feel like you can do this from a confident standpoint and make sure you’re listening to confident female voices throughout that process like Tori.
Tori Dunlap:
The thing that many people don’t understand about money fights is that they’re not about money at all. They’re rarely about money. You’ve said that couples are actually talking, when they think they’re talking about money, they’re talking about identity, trust, fear and the different gender roles. What did those conversations look like in your marriage? And how do we shift from, “Oh, you overspent in this thing and you bought too many things,” to actually having a conversation about what the heart of the issue is.
Andy Hill:
Yeah. I’ll use our example. There was a big fight that we had in probably like 2018, I would say. Nicole calls it our volcano fight, where it was just those moments where I was working like crazy in my corporate job and I’d come home and we had a four-year-old and a two-year-old and I just felt like so starved for attention from her, attention for myself, just personal self-care time for that, that I just felt kind of trapped a little bit in that lifestyle. And from her standpoint, I didn’t realize this because I wasn’t putting my empathy hat on at the time. She felt a similar way. She’s working full time as a stay at home mom at home.
And then when I come home, I’m talking about like ways that we could amplify our savings rate and grow our net worth so that I can get out of this thing. So it felt like not only does she have a deprived existence at home because she doesn’t have a lot of outlets, her husband’s now saying things about depriving it even more of the little joys that will help her to feel good in her life. So we were both kind of working from this, I guess, position of deprivation, me from time and her from the resource of money and time too as well. And so it just came to a nasty head. And until we spent some time in marriage counseling where we actually sat down and listened to the other side and truly empathized without speaking while they were speaking, like listening, until we got to that point, we didn’t actually realize what each other were going through.
And so that time in marriage counseling, it was about nine months during that period of time. And each of those sessions were fantastic and helped us kind of move towards a life where we could say, “Well, what would work for both of us? What’s a good compromise that would help Andy not feel so trapped with his corporate career?” And then Nicole did not feel so trapped at home or feel like she’s being deprived because Andy’s so interested in saving and investing and growing and finding his way to build his passive income through real estate or whatever the heck I was into at the time. You know what I mean? I’m sure you’ve heard this before. So we found a fantastic middle ground that has been working for both of us for a good five years now.
And our marriage has never been better. We spend so much quality time together. We go for runs on Mondays. We have morning coffee every morning. It just doesn’t feel cramped. It doesn’t feel like we’re starved for time together or starved for communication. We’ve opened up these windows of time in our marriage that just feels great. And so when things feel off, we can speak to each other about them immediately. So it doesn’t fester. So it doesn’t grow and feel like resentment over time. We’ve opened up those line of communications. What our counselor taught us, the important thing was just that hour. Just like sit down and be available. So now we’ve baked that into our lives now, so we’re always available for those important conversations.
Tori Dunlap:
Did I mention to listeners, this is a good episode to share with your partner. This is great. We were talking before we started recording. We’re recording this in mid-December, and there’s a video that I’ve seen go viral about a woman who is a stay-at-home parent whose husband is interested in divorcing. And the realization that she’s having now where the credit cards are in his name, the deed to the house is in his name. If he cuts her off, which she has said in the video, he’s taking the credit card back, she has no access to money, not even the savings, not even the investments, but like, “How am I going to go buy groceries?” So there’s so much to be said about that situation, but how can somebody who is a stay-at-home parent protect themselves financially if they are not the compensated partner?
Andy Hill:
Yeah. I feel for that woman in her situation. And as far as advice for her, I don’t have a lot. I would say lawyer up immediately, get some support as quickly as possible. And I’m sure there’s a lot of the DMs that are flying her way.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s kind of financial abuse as well because she has done uncompensated work for this whole time and now it’s like, “Well, you’re having no access to money.” It’s like, “Yes, did she go out and actually make the money?” No, but she took care of kids so he could go work. She was the chauffeur and the cook and everything else at home that he would’ve had to pay money for. So that is a conversation where unfortunately financial abuse is very common. Yeah. In that situation, I have so much empathy and care for her. How do we prevent that from happening for people?
Andy Hill:
Absolutely. Well, I would say many things. From the financial side of things, it is always good to have some of your own money. So even in a relationship that is you’re sharing everything and you say everything is ours, I think that’s fantastic and most of it should be ours, but really some of it should be yours for situations that require emergencies, something with your name on it is a very good thing. I’ve seen this more and more in divorces for women in our area that feel like they don’t have access to money for very important things like, “Hey, my husband and I are separating and I need to get out of here because it’s mentally abusive, but they don’t have access to that money.” So I would say it’s important to adhere to, which is maybe a more modern look at marriage of yours, mine, and ours kind of distribution towards money. And I would say still, if you have a good relationship with your husband, your good relationship with your partner, yeah, the bulk of it really should still be ours because you’re moving towards a life that you want to have together.
Putting up too much of a defense or a blockage with regard to your money can lead to some resentment too. So the real key outside of how you’re distributing that money is those open lines of communication. If this husband is gone all the time because he’s building an empire and then the mom is at home growing the empire of their family, it just feels so separate that communication is probably highly lacking. It’s like, “Hey, we both went into these roles and I’ll see you in 20 years maybe.” What can you do to open up those lines of communication and feel like you have the ability to speak to your partner about openness and transparency with regard to the finances and making sure you feel like there is some fairness and equity in the relationship? Does everything need to be split 50%, 50% between two different accounts? I don’t think so.
Tori Dunlap:
No.
Andy Hill:
I think having some openness and transparency with regard to where the money is, what the passwords are, where things are, both people should have access to all of the accounts. That’s a very important thing to do. And if you find that you bring this up to your spouse and there’s some caginess or like, “Well, you don’t need to worry about that.” Oh, that could be a red flag because the answer should be, “Of course, this is ours together. What’s mine is yours and what yours is mine. That’s what a marriage is, that’s what a relationship is.”
And if you’re not feeling like you’re getting that transparency, make sure you speak about that immediately and defend yourself because if this is the type of relationship that you want and that you desire, speak up and make sure it’s heard. And again, if that gets blocked or if that is like sad, “No, you don’t need to worry about that, I’ll take care of all that, you don’t worry your pretty little head about it.” Bring that to a third party to help you with those communications. There’s financial therapists even, there’s like marriage counselors, but there’s specific people who help around financial therapy. And I would highly recommend doing that if that’s the case.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I would also think about looking into spousal IRAs. So those exist. So if you are the non-compensated partner, some of the compensated partners contributions can go towards protecting your retirement because typically an IRA, you have to be earning an income in order to contribute to that. That’s your kind of way around it. We’ve talked about prenups a lot on this show. If you are thinking about getting married, fun fact, you have a prenup in every state in the United States. You just didn’t decide it because it’s just whatever the state’s laws are. You can also look into postnups if you’re already married. My partner and I, we talked about prenups three months in. If we get married, we are getting one. And it’s because we have to think about not splitting things just down the middle, which is what Washington State does. And also I think the common narrative is like, “Oh, prenups are just for people with a lot of money.”
And it’s like, no, if you bring debt into a relationship, if I have friends, especially women friends who got married, started a business that’s now a multimillion-dollar business, they get divorced, their partner who didn’t really contribute to that business at all, like they didn’t have children, is now getting a cut of that business. So there are assets that you might acquire later or debts that you might bring into a relationship. These all need to be decided on. And to your point, Andy, about discussions, I think getting a prenup forces you to have these conversations so that statistically you’re actually never going to have to use it. Having these conversations going through, yeah, what happens with our assets? What do we want to protect for each partner? Those are the kind of conversations that show you, yeah, we are probably going to be able to weather whatever storm comes our way because we’re willing to be uncomfortable in these conversations.
Andy Hill:
I love that. Yeah. Prenup is kind of just like getting term life insurance. Nobody wants to think about them dying, but you know what? We’re all going to die at one point. So you might as well start planning for it. And yes, with 40 to 50% of marriages ending in divorce, it’s good to have some plan if it does go down that route. And sometimes if you prepare and protect yourself, that could be even more power in your relationship to say, “Man, we’re probably not going to be one of those statistics because we prepared so well and we know each other so well.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right. And I will say, nobody thinks it’s going to happen to them. You don’t hopefully go into a marriage going, “Yeah, we’re going to divorce.” Nobody truly thinks it’s going to be them, yet I imagine you get similar emails. We get dozens and dozens of messages every single week from women who are either the most dramatic version is, “Yep, I’m being financially abused. I can’t access my money. Something’s happening.” Or just, “I love this person, but this relationship isn’t working anymore.” And that’s the reality for so many people. And just like you wouldn’t enter into a business relationship without a contract, marriage is a financial agreement. It’s hopefully an agreement of love, but it’s also a financial agreement.
Andy Hill:
Yeah. I think that the Disney movies as we were growing up maybe tainted our views a little bit of romance and relationships, but yeah, that’s the reality of it for sure.
Tori Dunlap:
What is one expense that your family cut that saved you a ton of money, but didn’t change your happiness at all?
Andy Hill:
Ooh, I like that. Well, I’ll go big first. I’ll say we decided to become mortgage free about nine years ago and by paying off our mortgage, we have dramatically lowered our expenses and it doesn’t require us to work as much because we do not have to pay the largest payment we’ll ever make on our annual budget. Small things, I think just analyzing our expenses and realizing that insurance can be quite an expensive thing if you don’t look at it every once in a while, maybe looking at high deductible plans.
You can be saving thousands of dollars a year just by maybe even a weekend of looking at some things. And that’s definitely saved us a lot over. So I would say the mortgage is like, okay, that’s a big one that’s going to take a long time that even is controversial if it’s a low interest mortgage. And then the insurance thing, man, we just have to do that every couple of years in order to fight back these big companies that we see a million commercials from in order to take more of our money. So yeah, I would say those are two that really have made a big impact in our lives.
Tori Dunlap:
On previous episodes that you’ve been on, we’ve talked about the financial independence retire early movement. I highly recommend going back and listening to those episodes with Andy because I think they’re so helpful and important. For those unfamiliar, financial independents retire early, it’s basically this idea of getting yourself either to financial independence, meaning that you don’t have to work, work is now optional, or the full version, which is, yep, I’m retiring or I’m rethinking the way I’m working. So you hit coast fire in your 30s, which means if you never contributed again, you’d have enough money to retire. And when we think about fire for the average person, especially for a family, especially in the early days, you and I know we read all the blogs, we were talking to all the people. It was like extreme deprivation, extreme frugality, or it was like a white guy being able to sell his tech company for millions of dollars at 42. So how do you actually explain tactically what fire can mean for a normal family?
Andy Hill:
Yeah. Yeah. You’re so right. And I think you broke it down pretty well. I think the idea of fire financial independence is so romantic like, “Oh my gosh, if I just work real hard, save and invest 50% or more for a shorter period of time, call it 15 years, I can have the choice to do nothing for the next portion of my life, call it the next 40, 50 years.” That sounds really cool. I tried it in practice with a wife and kids and man, did it cause some division in my marriage and it actually was not what I was seeking at all in the end. So I tried it. It’s a little too intense. I would say you broke it down pretty well. Unless you have a multi, multi six figure salary and you live in a low cost of living place, it’s very difficult for the vast majority of people.
Now, we did make good money. We made close to like $180,000 per year for a 10-year period of time, which was great living in Michigan. Even trying to save 40 to 50% of that felt like a difficult ride for both Nicole and I and trying to amass enough money to buy our first rental property and cash and all these ideas that I had caused more division in our relationship than freedom or whatever, independence, whatever word you want to use to make you feel like you’re moving in that direction. And actually, I realized throughout this whole process is that I enjoy working. I enjoy working, doing work that makes me feel good where I am contributing and helping people. So my goal now is really never to stop doing some sort of contributory work where I feel like I’m benefiting and helping society in some way, but I would like to do it a lot less than 40, 50, 60 hours a week that requires me to get on a commute and things like that.
It’s like, “How can I do some work for 20 to 25 hours a week maybe, and then get back to living my life?” So this middle ground of coast fire, which as you said, is, hey, you do build up those investments to a period to a point in time, which is more palatable for the majority of people. And then if you look at those compound interest calculators and say, “Wow, with time and compound interest, this thing’s going to take me to $2 million by the time I’m 60, 65 without any further contributions.” And so that became a big epiphany moment for us to say, “Well, if we didn’t need to save and invest so much, what could we do with this extra money?” And the next question popped up.
It’s like, “Well, if we don’t need that extra money, do we need to even work as much?” And so those big moments were epiphany moments for us. We look at each other and we’d say, “Well, what if we just have you go down to part-time and see how we can live on that? Okay, cool. This works. Maybe I can try to explore that in the next couple of years and see how that works. Wow, we’re freeing up a lot more time.” Now with this more time, what are we doing with it that helps us to live that life that we’ve always wanted or this ideal of retirement when we get there to say, “Here’s my best life.” It’s like, “Well, let’s start practicing what that best life might look like now so that we feel excited about our every day.”
Tori Dunlap:
Andy, one of the things that I always think about when I talk to you is that you have such strength and flexibility. I think one of your biggest strengths is, I’m going to try it and if it doesn’t work out, I’ll find a solution that does. And to everybody listening, that’s such a good skill because we get into a job or we get into a situation and we’re like, “Okay, again, this is all there is.” And if I take a risk, and I’m putting that in air quotes, even the thing that feels a very tiny risk, what if it doesn’t work out? My whole life’s going to blow up. And it’s like, “Statistically, no, there’s very few things that will actually ruin your entire life.” And what I love is that you’re saying, “Okay, we’re going to try this thing and I’m going to learn.” Because you can only learn if it works for you by actually trying it.
You can’t fantasize your way there. And so I just want everybody listening to hear what Andy’s saying of, “I tried this thing, we did it for a year or two, it didn’t work. We did something else. We tried that. There was something that worked, something that didn’t.” I just love that even in pursuit of goals and you’re so disciplined, right? You have decided at various points in your life, “You know what? This isn’t working for me anymore.” And rather than blowing up your life or rather than just staying the course, even though you knew it wasn’t working, it’s such a strength to be able to say, “Yep, it’s not working and I’m going to pivot and find something else that does.”
Andy Hill:
Absolutely. But I would say as you preach on your show quite a bit, Tori, it does help to have financial confidence going into these big moments where you make these big changes.
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Andy Hill:
And having like six to 12 months of expenses in the bank or something like that before you make any sort of big change career wise is always a really smart move to liquid, not like invested, like available outside of an emergency fund that says, “Here’s my F you money fund that says, ‘Hey, even if I completely mess this thing up, I’ve got some money to hold me over to make sure that I can course correct if need be.'” Because as you’ve just said, pivoting is the name of the game, being able to pivot and say, “Hey, this works now, this doesn’t work.” But having the financial strength to do that, because once you have that money in the bank, you get your shoulders back and you’re feeling confident. You’re like, “Yeah, you know what? I can do this because I have my big bank account behind me holding me back and making sure I can punch down any bullies along the way.” So it’s important to do that from a position of financial strength.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. When we talk about time freedom, financial independence, all of these things, I think you are right that most of this is quitting your job to go live on a beach at 40 is not the reality in our current economy or really in any economy. You had mentioned finding a version of that, whether that is being able to have a job where you can be at school pickup every day or thinking about pursuing a business that gives you 20 hours of your week back. What are ways that people can think about seeking that time freedom or building their life around time freedom that will still be accessible to them?
Andy Hill:
Well, I would say if you’re going to pursue a life of part-time work, I think it’s a combination of dreaming about what that life looks like, intentionally writing it down so that you know what you’re moving toward. So you are excited about all the steps that are about to follow because that’s the hard part. The fun part is dreaming and deciding what you want that life to look like. And once you get all excited about it, share it with your spouse because you’re going to ask your spouse the exact same question, your partner, the exact same questions and say, “What would a dream life look like? What does five to 10 years look like? What’s the best life you could design?
If you could be traveling at this portion of your life or working, or what kind of work would you want to do?” Those questions are a lot of fun. And then once you find out that information from your partner, then you have your combined goals together and then you’re inspired to move forward because then from there, it’s a lot of financial work. It’s you looking at the numbers, seeing what’s coming in and where it’s going. “Oh, I see that we’re spending a lot on this, but that doesn’t really align with our dream vision and our goals. Maybe we need to cut that out or reduce that a bit. Hey, I see that we’re spending so much on this. Does this help us move in this direction?” Well, I guess it doesn’t. And of course you can only cut so much. I don’t want to go down that extreme frugality route either. Earning more money is really a big key to hitting these big financial goals.
You know that as an entrepreneur yourself, if you’re able to make more where you’re currently working, it’s always easy to get paid more where people are currently already paying you, whether that’s an existing client or your employer because you’re already in the system, they know that you know how to do the work. It’s like, “Okay, can I earn more commissions here? Can I get bonuses? Can I get a salary increase? Do I have what it takes to deserve that salary increase?” Those types of conversations should be and can be thought about. And if you are thinking about starting a small business in the future, testing out your idea beforehand is so important before you make any leap because for a couple of reasons, you’re going to find out if you even like that side hustle or that big business idea.
And the second most important thing is you’re going to find out if people will actually pay you to do that thing. It’s so important to receive money from somebody based on your business idea before you leap and say, “Hey, I’m going to go do this full time.” I would highly recommend anybody get paid to do the thing before you say, “I’m going to go do it as my full-time business.” And then lastly, make sure you’ve got some money set aside to protect you so that you are ready to move in that direction. So yes, dream, look at those numbers, make sure you’re actually aligning with your values and goals with the money, and then make sure you’re preparing for that leap by testing out your business, making sure you’re getting paid for it and having money on the side to just protect you and your family if things go astray.
Tori Dunlap:
For families in our community who are exhausted, drowning in responsibilities or just feeling stuck in the job they currently have, what is the very first step they can take toward a life that feels more free?
Andy Hill:
Well, I would say know that you’re not alone. There’s a lot of people out there that are feeling the exact same way. So you can breathe that in for a moment and realize that that is the norm for most people. But the second thing you can breathe in is that just because it’s the norm for a lot of people out there, doesn’t mean that it needs to be your norm. You can change. You are powerful. You are strong. You have the ability to create the life you’ve always wanted and it is all based on your ability to control your money as well as control your time. Look at both your budget as your money calculator, as well as your calendar for your time calculator to say, “How am I using my money and how am I using my time that will help me move towards a life that I’m actually interested in living.” And don’t feel bad if this takes you a while.
This journey that I’m talking about with Tori today took us about 15 years. And so what is one thing that you can do this year to move in that direction of a life you’ve always wanted it? Maybe it’s just carving out more time for conversations with your partner so that you can talk and dream about this better life. That would be a huge win for this year of 2026, right? That would be a huge win. “Hey, I’ve spent more time dreaming and having a good time with my spouse.” That could actually solve a lot of the problems. You’re actually playing more and acting like a kid a little bit more with your spouse. That’s sometimes where we feel like the joy is lost. So give yourself some grace, realize that a lot of people are in this situation, realize that you are in control to make change if you want to, and then just make small incremental steps to move in that direction.
Tori Dunlap:
Andy, you’re one of my favorite people to talk to. I just love sending people your resources and you have a new book out, which I’m so thrilled to read. Plug away, my friend. Tell me where we can find it.
Andy Hill:
I love talking to you and I’m so honored to be a multi-time guest here with Financial Feminist, which is so cool. The book is called Own Your Time. It is set up in a way where it’s 10 financial steps to help families put family first and escape the corporate grind. And it is available now on Amazon, Barnes & Noble. I think today is still pre-order day. So if you want to help me with my pre-order goal, that’s great. And then tomorrow it’s available for release on January 21st. So yes, Own Your Time by Andy Hill.
Tori Dunlap:
If you are a parent, if you are married, this is a necessary read and I am so excited to recommend it to all of the parents in my life. And I just always love when you come back on the show. So thanks for being here.
Andy Hill:
Thank you, Tori. Your name is in the jacket on the inside with an endorsement. So thank you so much for your endorsement and your time today.
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminists, produced by Her First $100K. If you love the show and want to keep supporting feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you’re looking for resources, tools, and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to http://herfirst100k.com/ffpod.
Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Research by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Daryl Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Meghan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
