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If you’ve ever found yourself on the other side of a Facebook message asking if you “keep your business options open,” we hate to break it to you, but you were the target of an MLM pitch.

What is an MLM?

You’ve likely heard of multi-level marketing before. An MLM, also known as network marketing, is a business model where individuals recruit other individuals to sell products to people in their networks for commissions. Some people refer to it as a pyramid scheme, and although an MLM is “technically” legal, it is very similar in structure to one. The difference is that in order for it NOT to be a scam, money needs to be primarily earned from the sales of products and services rather than the recruitment of new members.

But as you’ll hear from today’s guest, Emily Paulson, author of “Hey Hun: Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multilevel Marketing,” the MLM industry doesn’t have to be illegal for people to fall victim to its shady practices.

“It’s a scam. It’s a ruse. It’s…faux women’s empowerment that just really upholds systems that oppress women, upholds white supremacy, upholds patriarchy.”

Before we dive into the interview, keep these MLM stats in mind:

• According to data from the Direct Sellers Association, multi-level marketing companies brought in an estimated $40.5 billion in revenue in the US in 2022.

• 75% of the 6.7 million people involved in MLMs are women.

• 83% of the women involved in MLMs are white/caucasian.

The allure of an MLM

Emily and Tori begin their conversation by exposing the allure of MLMs and what attracted Emily into joining one in the first place. “I was just in this place where I was looking for an escape. And that was enough for me to go meet her, knowing she was meeting for work. She could have been selling anything, she could have been doing anything. I was just so desperate for that connection and that night out.”

She talks about timing being a key factor in her being susceptible to that initial pitch. As a stay-at-home mom of 5 who felt like she had lost herself in motherhood, she saw this as a way to get back some of what she felt was missing — recognition, community, and possibility.

As a mother, no one is checking in with you to congratulate you for a job well done. You’re giving and giving, but sometimes you’re left feeling depleted. That feeling can leave someone feeling like their identity and the person they used to be is gone. That’s how you get drawn in.

Cult-like tactics MLMs use

Referencing Emily’s book “Hey Hun: Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multilevel Marketing,” the discussion turns toward the ways in which an MLM is similar to a cult in how they recruit and keep people from leaving.

“I think right off the bat, it’s the love bombing.” The very particular verbiage that they use when you first sign up — the “oh you joined our tribe…you joined our group of boss babes…and so you feel like you’re part of something even if you don’t know what the hell any of it means.”

Emily explains how those early dopamine hits like shout-outs and social media photos and tags are designed to pull you in, to make you feel a sense of community and keep you there feeling like “wow, I’m part of something.”

She details how even at the corporate level, you are being groomed early on to stay. It’s why she says that the very first promotion or title rank in an MLM is so easy to achieve.

“So you very quickly like, oh my gosh, I have all these people, and I just hit my first promotion. So you are like immediately roped in….the love bombing is really, really, really powerful.”

MLM financial myths

Have you ever seen the Oprah Winfrey clip where everyone gets a car? “You get a car, and you get a car, and you get a car!” Well, if you know anything about MLMs, a “free” car is part of the enticement, and one of the things touted most as being a “gift” once you achieve a certain rank. If you sell enough products and recruit enough people to your team, you “earn” a title rank that gets you a “free” car. Notice how the word free is in quotations?

“The car’s not free. I think that’s one of the biggest ruses. You qualify by hitting whatever metric it is within that company…and you have to do that for a certain number of months. When you do that, you are a car qualifier. Then they (company) will give you a stipend. And this is anywhere from 250 upwards of maybe a thousand dollars. That’s the highest I’ve heard of. And again, these are luxury cars, so that’s not usually enough to cover the payment. So you’re essentially getting a supplement to pay toward the car payment. So now you’re spending more money per month than you were before.”

It’s not just the car program that is misunderstood. MLMs often present this illusion of success, and people making money. Emily was making upwards of $40k a month at one point. But she says it wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. Many people in her own downline were barely breaking even between the money they had to spend buying their own products (auto-ship). Even for herself, after taxes, money spent hosting events, buying inventory, and on her car note — she was no longer making a six-figure income…even though she was touted as being a member of the million dollar club.

“The costs are really immense. And so when you really take into account, like I was never a millionaire. I never had a million dollars, right? So yeah, I was making a decent paycheck every month, but a lot of that money was just going right back into the system. So that’s one thing I always like to say when people are like, but you’re a millionaire.

Recognizing the harm of MLMs

Tori and Emily talk about Emily’s sobriety being the catalyst for her departure from the MLM world. How once she got sober she started to take notice of certain predatory tactics that had seemed normal before. One of the things she noticed that didn’t sit well with her was that people were failing. “The people beneath me weren’t succeeding and it wasn’t just that they weren’t working hard. So I couldn’t ignore that anymore.”

Then there were the blatant predatory tactics of “people trying to make money off the backs of people who were losing money.” Tactics that encouraged people to use their medical and health misfortunes like cancer to promote products.

From faith manipulation, to using medical problems as a marketing strategy, Emily has seen it all. She offers the following advice to those concerned about friends involved in MLMs, “It is probably likely that
anything you’re going to say will just reinforce what they’ve been told from their MLM that you’re a hater. That you’re not supportive. And so…be willing to kind of be the soft place to land when they inevitably fail.”

Emily’s Links:

Website

Instagram

Hey, Hun: Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multilevel Marketing

Sobriety support

Additional Resources:

FTC: The Case Against Multi-Level Marketing

Direct Selling in the United States: 2022 Facts and Data

10 Signs a Business is an MLM Scheme

Resources:

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Transcript:

Emily Paulson:

If you care about your friend who is in an MLM, do not buy her products and do not join her team. Because all you are doing… Say you buy a $20 whatever, spatula, I don’t care. She is getting a very, very small portion of that money. More of it’s going to her upline, her upline, her upline, and the parent company.

So the people who are profiting off of this, not your friend. It’s just driving your friend more into this insular world, where she’s going to spend more money, and more money, and more money.

Tori Dunlap:

Hi, Financial Feminists. I’m so excited to see you. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for being here. If you are new, and maybe because you saw the title of this episode and you’re like, “I need more, om, nom, nom, nom, nom,” welcome. My name is Tori. I’m so excited to see you. This is a show that teaches you how to be better with money, but also talks about the way money affects women differently. And if you’re an oldie, but a goodie, as always, welcome back.

So way back in season one, one of our first ever episodes of the show, episode two, we talked with Jane Marie who hosts The Dream podcast to discuss her extensive work researching the world of multi-level marketing companies, or MLMs for short. This is still our most popular episode of our entire show, because these companies are sketchy and secretive, and we’ve all gotten that, “Hey, boss Babe,” DM, or Instagram message, or Facebook message from some acquaintance that we went to high school with that we haven’t talked to in years.

So right off the bat, if you have not listened to that episode, it is a great precursor for today’s episode. And like I said, it’s our most popular episode of the show. It’s fantastic. It dives into these companies in more detail.

But today, we wanted to bring on a guest that has actually been in the world of MLMs, that actually made over a million dollars from MLMs, and has sense realized how toxic they are and gotten out of them, and really become one of the leaders of this movement against these predatory companies.

It’s one thing to learn about MLMs, and their insidious, secrety, sketchy practices from the outside. Again, listen to episode two. But a whole other thing to talk to someone who was deep in the belly of the beast and truly one of my favorite conversations we’ve had in a long time. Emily Lynn Paulson is the author of Highlight Real: Finding Honesty & Recovery Beyond the Filtered Life and Hey, Hun: Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multilevel Marketing. She has given two powerful TED Talks, both challenging the status quo of parenting, alcohol use, and feminism as we know it.

Paulson has also been featured in major publications such as The Today Show, New York Times, Washington Post, The Seattle Times, Chicago Tribune, Next Question with Katie Couric, and the Tamron Hall Show.

Emily joined us to talk about her time in MLMs as one of the top sellers at the company. And at one point she was a millionaire, which I put in quotes. And you’ll understand why we put that in quotes when you listen, and she had dozens of women reporting directly to her. AKA, she had recruited them and they were in the pyramid under her at the top.

She shares her story of how a simple meetup with a friend pulled her into the world of exploited a practices, shady business dealings, and even being prompted to use her own cancer diagnosis to sell more products. Oh boy.

We got a lot of heat for our first episode, I think because it was our most popular, from a lot of women saying we were anti-feminist for disparaging MLMs, or that we weren’t actually supporting women business owners. If you’re someone who has thought this or sits in the middle, maybe you’ve been part of an MLM, maybe you know somebody part of an MLM. Maybe you are just a little nosy person like me, and you want to hear more about MLMs. I encourage you to listen to this show and listen to this episode. It is so important.

And I’m just going to debunk it right off the bat. We talk about this more in the episode. Being part of an MLM and growing up the ranks, you don’t own a business. You’re not a business owner. And me telling you and telling the general public that MLMs are a scam is not anti-feminist. Okay, let’s get into it. But first, a word from the companies that allow us to bring you all of this good free content.

Emily Paulson:

I am in Bend, Oregon. We moved here a couple of years ago.

Tori Dunlap:

I went to college in Portland, and I live in Seattle.

Emily Paulson:

Oh, yeah. So we moved from Seattle. We were there for about 12 years.

Tori Dunlap:

Okay, I didn’t know that. That’s great.

Emily Paulson:

Yeah.

Tori Dunlap:

What did you like about it and why did you leave?

Emily Paulson:

Well, we moved there because we’re originally from Montana, and we actually got married in Portland. We’ve kind of been all over the northwest, and then we were in Pennsylvania for four years. And my husband took a job in Seattle to come back to the Northwest.

Tori Dunlap:

Where in Pennsylvania?

Emily Paulson:

Little town called Doylestown. It’s in Bucks County, 45 minutes out of Philadelphia.

Tori Dunlap:

Okay. My dad’s from outside of Pittsburgh, and so I always wonder when people say Pennsylvania. It does feel like two separate states. You say it’s either side or-

Emily Paulson:

Definitely, yes-

Tori Dunlap:

Or Pittsburgh side.

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. So we loved Seattle. We basically raised the kids there, and it was mostly just like the weather kind of got to us. And during Covid, we felt very trapped. We always thought we’d retire in a smaller town with four seasons, and Covid kind of drove the change. Yeah.

Tori Dunlap:

Bend is the nice medium between enough culture, but also still feels tiny.

Emily Paulson:

Yeah.

Tori Dunlap:</ p>

It’s a really good, happy medium.

Emily Paulson:

And it has all the seasons, but winter isn’t Montana winter. You dabble in the snow. It’s not too bad.

Tori Dunlap:

Totally. I love that. I’m just so excited to chat. I was mentioning to you before that still our most popular episode of this show is one with Jane Marie, who hosted a podcast called The Dream talking all about MLMs and just that whole world, and how they prey on women. And so I’m just really excited to chat with you today.

First, before I dive into your experience and your questions, can you define what an MLM is? It stands for multi-level marketing. What does that mean? What are MLMs?

Emily Paulson:

So it’s an un-salaried workforce that basically exploits women’s unpaid labor. I mean, that’s what it is to me. I could define it in many different terms. It’s a scam. It’s a ruse. It’s foe women’s empowerment, that just really upholds systems that oppress women. Upholds white supremacy, upholds patriarchy. It’s a scam. I have nothing good to say about it, and I promoted it and cheerleaded about it for seven years of my life. So that’s a big 180.

Tori Dunlap:

Can you give me some examples? Because I think it’s helpful to contextualize. Mary Kay is always the one I think of just very… I think everybody has come into contact with Mary Kay at some point, or every woman has come into contact with Mary Kay. What are some other examples?

Emily Paulson:

Oh my gosh. It would probably be easier to name companies that aren’t MLMs. But Beachbody, which is now BODi, they’ve rebranded. And a lot of them do this to try and differentiate themselves. Beautycounter, Avon, Rodan + Fields, Modere, Monat. What else? Herbalife, Pruvit, Tranont, Kangen. I mean, I could talk for an hour with all these names.

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah, I feel like you’re throwing darts at a board. You’re just like, “Combine this and that word.”

Emily Paulson:

Totally. If you’ve seen it in your social media feed, chances are it’s an MLM. If it’s come up in the advertisements of your social media feed, chances are it’s a legit product. I feel like that’s a good way to differentiate it.

Tori Dunlap:

So you mentioned seven years. I’ll talk about that in a second. What was your experience with MLMs before you joined one? Did you grow up around it? Were your friends involved? What was your touchpoint with MLMs before?

Emily Paulson:

Yeah, I had a vague understanding of what they were. I went to a Mary Kay party in college. I remember getting a lot of blue eyeshadow. But I was very neutral about them. It was more of a thought of, “It’s kind of that thing.” Once it picked up on social media and I saw people I knew involved in MLMs, there was just this internal cringe feeling, and I didn’t know what it was. It was like, “There’s something little bit off about it.” But I went to jewelry parties, I went to legging parties. I bought stuff, but I didn’t really know much about it. I didn’t seek out more information beyond that.

Tori Dunlap:

When did it feel like this was something you would be interested in, or what were the factors that led to your interest? What was that timeline?

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. So this was 2014, and I had five kids, still do. But my youngest was one, and I was kind of at this place where I was looking for something else. I knew we were done having kids. I just felt this pull inside of me to do something with purpose, that I just felt like I had no other purpose besides being a mom, and that’s what I wanted. And yet, I felt so unfulfilled and I felt lonely. I felt all of these just swirling things at once.

And an acquaintance from high school reached out on social media and said she was coming to Seattle, coming to town, to grab wine with some of her coworkers. And that was it. I was just in this place where I was looking for an escape, and that was enough for me to go meet her, knowing she was meeting for work. She could have been selling anything. She could have been doing anything. I was just so desperate for that connection and that night out. That’s kind of just the place I was in.

Tori Dunlap:

Let’s talk about that, because we have had experts on cults on the show. It shocks a lot of people. I have a background in marketing and theater, but I actually studied for three years in college terrorist groups. And it might be a little farfetched to compare an MLM to a terrorist group. But what I’ve realized about cults, about churches, about terrorist organizations, and about MLMs, is they prey on people. Again, with churches, sometimes negatively, sometimes positively. But really, people who are looking for some sense of community and some sense of belonging. And the people more susceptible to joining those things and becoming almost radicalized by them are the people who are in either a season of their life where they do, to your point, feel very lonely or isolated, or they’ve never fit in. They’re that person that’s never fit in their communities, in their schools, in their life. Does that ring true for you?

Emily Paulson:

100%. And I think when you say, oh, how could terrorist groups and MLMs have anything in common? 100%, the coercive control, required to get you to believe some of these… You think of these beliefs are so out there. It’s the same, it’s the techniques that get you roped into these. But 100%, I had been lacking accolades-

Tori Dunlap:

Recognition-

Emily Paulson:

In my life. Being recognized, getting a paycheck. Just the things you get in a job that when you decide to stay home with your kids, you don’t have anymore. And then you realize, when I was in that place then where I’m like, “Oh, I could go back to work because now I’m not having kids anymore. Well, how do I pay for childcare? I have to go back and get re-certified.” The barriers are so high. And what happens if one of the kids was sick? There was no side door for me. There were no options.

And so when this came into my life, it was like, “Oh, okay. Here’s this someone who I know vaguely from high school, and so I can trust her if we grew up in the same town. She does this thing and she makes money from it, and she’s home with her kids too. So there’s got to be something to it.” It’s just that little spark of possibility, it took over any of those neutral or negative associations I may have had with MLMs.

Tori Dunlap:

What you said is so interesting. I’ve never heard it put that way of, no one is doing performance reviews with you about being a mom or checking in with you over Slack and being like, “Hey, that diaper change was really, really great.” There’s no admiration or even the recognition. Obviously, no, there’s very little recognition to being a parent and being a mother. But specifically compared to corporate life, there’s no attaboy ever.

Emily Paulson:

And especially when you give your kids so many accolades. I mean, everything has a participation trophy and a medal. It’s different than the way I grew up, of course. And that’s not good or bad, it’s just different.

But then you’re giving all these accolades, you’re giving all of this recognition, and you’re getting nothing. And for Mother’s Day, you’ll get a cute colored picture or whatever, but you’re like, “What about the person I was before?”

Tori Dunlap:

My identity.

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. And I remember being at my 10-year-high school reunion. I don’t know why I just thought of this, but that was my first realization. I had a baby and I was pregnant with my second. And so I show up to this reunion pregnant. Nobody asked me about, “What’s your job? What’s your degree in college?” It was all about, “So what do you do?” And it was my first, “It’s all about my kids now.” My life is like a chemist, and having a master’s degree and all this stuff, that’s all gone now. That’s gone. It really took over. So losing that part of yourself is really hard, and realizing that it’s not easy to then go back into it. For a woman, for a mom, it’s not the same.

Tori Dunlap:

So we were mentioning before and talking about these cult-like tactics. You mentioned them in your book. The sense of belonging, the lack of identity, and then here’s this new identity we can give you. That’s definitely one of them. What are some of the other tactics that happened to you or that you saw, and then what happened with other people in the MLM too?

Emily Paulson:

So I think right off the bat, it’s the love bombing.

Tori Dunlap:

“Hey, boss babe.”

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. Well, any desire for recognition is just, even just you signed up. “Oh, you joined our tribe. You joined our group of boss babes. You joined our team.” And so you feel like you’re part of something, even if you don’t know what the hell any of it means. So you start getting those dopamine hits really early, and then you start getting gifs, and shout-outs, and social media tags, really for doing not very much usually. It’s just, “You signed up,” and that feels really good.

And that’s done on purpose because it keeps you in. It keeps you in that community, and you just feel like, “Wow, I’m part of something.” And this is done not just from the people in the MLM, but also from the corporate level too. There’s a reason why in MLMs, the first promotion, or title, or rank, or whatever they call it in their MLM is very easy to hit. It requires maybe you buying your business kit, which of course is required, and then maybe getting a customer or something.

So very quickly you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I have all these people, and I just hit my first promotion.” So you are immediately roped in. The love bombing is really, really, really powerful. And as long as that hangs on, you will keep seeking that. Even in the face of not making any money, maybe losing money, or very likely losing money, maybe pushing away friends, because that is so intoxicating.

Tori Dunlap:

It’s almost like that quick dopamine hit for you to feel like, “Oh, I can do this. I can be successful.” And the fact that it’s literally designed that way. It’s not just the first thing was easy. It’s like, “We are purposely going to make this first milestone easy so that you get roped in.”

The sunk cost fallacy, I think is the other part of this, that is so damaging. Again, so similar to the way cults operate, the way any sort of scam operates, where at some point you get so far in, that the shame or the guilt that you feel both externally, but also internally, prevents you from doing the right thing, which is removing yourself. Because you’re like, “I’m this far in, I can’t back out now. What if people think I’m a failure? What if I actually can’t hack it? So I’m just going to stay in.”

Emily Paulson:

Absolutely. And because it’s this meritocracy where you’re told, “Hey, you can be whatever you want to be, you can make as much money as you want.” It’s all up to you. This message is just drilled into you, and this personal development, these books, these courses, seminars you’re given, it’s all about you. And so of course there’s nobody else to blame. It’s like a secret science you can’t crack.

And so inevitably, 99% of people lose money. If you are one of those people, then there’s always more to do. “Well, I should have read one more book. Well, maybe I’ll try one more month. Maybe next month. Maybe if I do this, maybe if I do that.” There’s always something else to achieve or to do, busy work, that you are always going to think it’s your fault.

And there’s all these memes shared and pictures that personify this, like someone digging through a tunnel, and you can see on the other side is this pot of gold. They’re just right there, and then the other person walks away. You never know how close you are if you quit. That message all the time. You only fail if you quit. It’s just ingrained in you, stay no matter what.

And this is not just financial, it’s emotionally through your community too. Because you start alienating people who rightfully have concerns about what you’re involved in, who you’re involved with. And that just drives you further into this insular world, because these people are all… I mean, you can do no wrong, no matter what you do. You’re great in their eyes. They compliment you, they reward you, they shout you out. And then these people, they don’t support you, so you’re just even more trapped.

Tori Dunlap:

It is a cult. Every time I hear it described. I have a weird obsession with cults as I think a lot of people do. I know a lot more than the average person. And that’s classic cult behavior is it’s like, “Oh, well, you’re not succeeding? Well, you haven’t bought in enough. You’re not taking this seriously.”

NXIVM I think did this very infamously where they were like, “You should take this other training, because we need to see that you’re serious.” And then to your point where everybody else in their life who caress about them is like, “This isn’t good for you.” They literally tell you, “Well, they’re just jealous. They’re jealous of you, or they don’t understand, or they’ve gotten the level of enlightenment that you have.” And so then it others you too
, where you’ve become so isolated from anybody who might be talking sense to you, and you’re so insulated in that group.

Emily Paulson:

And then by the company, you’re given only their information. If there is outside, there’s a lawsuit, or there’s a blog post, or there’s whatever, an article, or a movie, or this book. It’s very much like, “Don’t talk about it, don’t look at it, don’t read it, and here’s information to say instead.” So you’re given only their propaganda, you’re given their studies to share, but you’re never told to look further or get information outside of their information.

Tori Dunlap:

So you mentioned, is it 99%?

Emily Paulson:

99.7% of people. Yep.

Tori Dunlap:

So 99.7% of people fail. And even if they do know the numbers, I know the stat, and I’ll cite it probably in the intro when I actually find it. There’s this fallacy of the 1%, especially in Americas, because we’re such an individualist society. We all believe we’re the 1% that can make it. We can look at the stats and be like, “Oh, 99.7% of people lose money? But be one of those people.” I think, how much does that play into the joining of the MLM, the commitment to the MLM, this feeling that, “Even if I know the stat, I can do it though?”

Emily Paulson:

Yeah, because it’s not treated like a lottery. We all know that we’re not going to win the Powerball. But man, when it’s a billion dollars, I’m going to go buy a ticket, because why the hell not? Right? It’s not chance.

People assume that, “Well, that 1% worked the hardest. They really pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. They worked the hardest.” We have this very, that whole American dream, right? But MLMs really bastardize it, because it’s not just the worst parts of capitalism. It’s again, this meritocracy where, “Oh yeah, you can do it. You can do it. Let’s ignore everything that’s actually going on with your life. And actually, the only people who can make money are the ones who can spend money. And actually, the only people who can make it are the ones who get in early. And actually, let’s ignore all of that.” And the stories you see amplified on social media are all these aspirational, “Oh, I was a shy kindergarten teacher, and now I make $100,000 a month.” And it’s just the very few people out of the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people, who all are just throwing money into the system and never making any.

So it’s that cognitive dissonance of, “Okay, I see the numbers. But yeah, I see all these people who are successful. And they look like me. They’re relatable.” And that’s one of the major reasons why if you go to any retention events, any conventions, anything where there’s these big group things that you get together with these organizations, it’s always a sob story into this inspirational tale. It’s always, “I was this and now I’m this.”

And that is by design, because there is going to be someone who relates to it. “Oh, I got divorced too. Oh, I’m a single mom too. Oh, I work in the medical field too. Oh, this. Oh that. Oh this.” They have enough of a cross section of different backgrounds with these rags to riches stories, that you just feel like that could be you.

Tori Dunlap:

For you, you actually at least financially succeeded in an MLM. You were part of the 0.3% who actually became a millionaire from your work. How did you step away if it was working for you? And what were the first cracks that caused you to question it?

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. So the first thing is the language is really important here, because the whole, “I was a millionaire.” That’s very loaded language, because I did earn a million dollars in commissions over the course of that period. That’s what a millionaire means in an MLM. That sounds great. However, it doesn’t take into account what I spent.

Tori Dunlap:

That’s not a million in your pocket-

Emily Paulson:

Oh god no-

Tori Dunlap:

That’s seven years.

Emily Paulson:

Seven years, right. Seven years. So you break that down, still decent. Well, cut that in half because taxes aren’t taken out of commissions, right? You’re a 1099 contractor. So cut that in half.

And again, the expenses are huge. The products you have to buy are huge. You have to pay for trips, and all of these conventions, and retention events. The costs are really immense.

And so when you really take into account, I was never a millionaire. I never had a million dollars. So yeah, I was making a decent paycheck every month, but a lot of that money was just going right back into the system. So that’s one thing I always like to say when people are like, “But you’re a millionaire. Why did you leave?”

So my awakening was very slow. The biggest thing that opened my eyes was when I got sober in 2017, and my recovery story is very entangled with the MLM story, because I was really seeking the same thing with my addiction, was that escape, right? The glass of wine or the MLM. Whatever it was, it was something outside of myself.

So once I got sober, I realized that I couldn’t send the cold messages anymore. I couldn’t send the cringey texts. I couldn’t do the cut and paste scripts, and I couldn’t not take no for an answer over and over. And so I was like, “Huh, okay. That’s interesting that I can’t do those things.” And I just kind of thought, “Well, I’ll just change my tune and I just won’t do those things anymore.”

By the time I got to that point, I was already so high up in the MLM, that it really wasn’t my own work that was keeping me there. Because again, it’s the work of the people at the bottom of the pyramid that is promoting the people at the top of the pyramid. So I was kind of in this weird place where, okay, I’m still making money. I’m not doing the things that make me feel cringey.

Then I started noticing lot of other things. I started noticing that I really thought everyone could do this. Because I did all the things I was told, and I became successful. And I’m telling my team to do these things and they’re not, and I realized they were doing everything.

And it was just the fact that saturation, there’s too many people selling the same thing in the same area, changes in the social media landscape. There were a lot of reasons why the people beneath me weren’t succeeding. And it wasn’t just that they weren’t working hard, so I couldn’t ignore that anymore.

Eventually, I let my business… I always use air quotes here, because it’s not a business. It’s a 1099 contract opportunity. I kind of let it go on autopilot. I talked to my customers, I talked to t
he people on my team and just said, “Hey, this is what I’m feeling now. I used to really believe in this. Now I don’t. I’m kind of going to go dark. I’m not going to sell anymore. I’m not going to post it on social media anymore.” And then Covid happened.

And I had gone into this road of recovery advocacy, and I became a recovery coach. I started down this different path. I started writing, I wrote a recovery memoir. And what I saw during Covid was really the nail in the coffin. It was the just blatant predatory behavior of people trying to make money off the backs of people who are losing money. “Oh, you lost your job? Come join this pyramid scheme.” And then selling products like, “Our essential oils cure Covid.”

And then the misinformation machine, it was ripe in the MLM world. It just seemed like every conspiracy theory was not just only going viral. It was just the lack of critical thinking that I saw of people just believing their uplines, their uplines sharing something, and then it just infiltrated their entire teams. And I couldn’t ignore that anymore.

And then I saw lots of PPP loan fraud that I couldn’t ignore, and that was enough for me to just say, “I cannot even be associated with this anymore.” So I finally terminated my account. That was it. It was the last straw.

Tori Dunlap:

So we had discovered in our research something that I would love to talk to you about, because when I first read it, I’m going to be honest with you, I was like, “Oof. Oh man.” You unfortunately, and I’m so… Are you recovered? Are you in remission?

Emily Paulson:

Yes. Yes.

Tori Dunlap:

Okay. I’m so glad to hear. So you were diagnosed with cervical cancer, what, 2014? Is that right?

Emily Paulson:

2015, yep.

Tori Dunlap:

2015. Okay. And someone I think in the MLM, kind of prompted you that you should use it as a marketing tactic. So talk to me about that.

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. So this again, was so common in the MLM world, to again, use these vulnerable stories. Whether it was, “My husband left me,” or, “My mom died,” or whatever, and use it to promote your products. And so it wasn’t unusual. That sort of tactic wasn’t unusual.

So when it was suggested to me like, “Hey, make lemonades out of lemons. You have this horrible thing happen. Maybe you can make something out of it.” And so I was like, “Well, what if I did a fundraiser or something?”

So on its face, that sounds great. Fundraisers sound great. And they are, if they’re done with good intentions. Last week, a local pizza place in town did a fundraiser for the Maui fires. And yes, they get the business from it, but the profit was going to Maui.

So it’s like you’re supporting your local community and this tragedy that happens. The money’s all staying locally and going to this thing, so there’s nothing sideways about it.

And so that’s kind of how I was like, “Oh, well it’s a fundraiser. I’m sending all my profits to,” basically this charity fund at this hospital that I was being treated at. That sounded great to me.

But in an MLM, I’m not a business owner. So anything that people were coming to buy, they buy a skin cream or something, sure, maybe I was giving my small profit to the charity. But guess what? My upline was still getting a cut. Their upline was still getting a cut. Their upline and the parent company who was making most of the money.

And that’s not something I took into account, nor was I told to take it into account. Because again, this was such a common practice to use a tragedy to be charitable, when really I was getting a signal boost, and so was everybody else.

And what I could have done was just say, “Hey, can you guys donate $20? Here, give me $20 and I’ll give it.” That would’ve been the charitable thing, but to filter it through the company. So that was something that in the moment, again, felt really good because I didn’t use critical thinking skills to think it all the way through.

And so when I did unfortunately have a cancer relapse in 2017, end of 2017, that was the first thing that I remembered was like, “Oh my God, I used this to sell shit.” And again, I was sober by that point. I was clearheaded. I was kind of thinking more critically about things, and I thought, “Gosh, that was duplicitous.”

So I always like to say, I have empathy for myself. I have empathy for other people who do these things. I joined this thinking I was doing a good thing. People don’t join these thinking they’re going to scam people. And so I look back, and like, “What can I learn from that and do differently?”

And that’s why I wrote about it, because again, this is so common. And it’s funny because there were so many other outlets that picked up that essay that I wrote, and the title was like, Woman Scams Millions for Cancer. And I’m like, “Oh God.”

Tori Dunlap:

I’m looking at the Daily Mail article.

Emily Paulson:

I know. And then I’m like, “Okay, if you get your info from the Daily Mail, go read the original essay that I wrote.” But it’s just funny how those things are taken out of account. But that’s what makes it easy to say, “Well, you’re just a bad person. It’s not the system. It’s not the company.”

Tori Dunlap:

You’re the bad apple.

Emily Paulson:

Right, you’re the bad apple. And that’s just not the case. It’s the system of coercive control. It’s the system that makes us think we’re doing something good, when we’re actually harming people. So let’s talk about it.

Tori Dunlap:

Well, and on its face too, I’m like, “Yes, so much of marketing is branding and storytelling, and how you tell your story.” Part of me is like, “And lemonade out of lemons. Okay, great.” That’s where I think it’s again, couched under that, because people at their core aren’t bad people. They’re trying to do the right thing, and they’re like, “Oh, okay. Maybe that’s okay.” And then when you start digging into it further, you’re like, “Okay, this is getting dicey.”

We have had a couple folks on the podcast to talk about the importance of sobriety. I didn’t plan on asking you, but I would love to know, you’ve mentioned a couple of times, it sounded like substances were part of the reason that you couldn’t think clearly or were shrouding your decision-making during that time. What was the relationship at the time between you trying to grow, again, business in quotes, and your substance use?

Emi
ly Paulson:

Yeah. So they really fed on themselves. My drug of choice was alcohol, which is easy in the culture today, and especially as a mom. That mommy wine culture of, “Oh, your kid’s crying? Have a glass of wine.”

Tori Dunlap:

That feels very MLM too, “Boss babe, Chardonnay, Chardonnay”-

Emily Paulson:

All day. Yeah, rose all day. I mean, I had a phone case at one point that said, “Rose all day,” on it. I was wine girl. I was champagne girl. That was part of my personality. And also, the MLM was part of my personality. So there’s this all encompassing thing. Wine isn’t just something you do, it’s just not a thing you drink. It’s part of your personality.

So I think that was part of it. Again, it was like this escape. And then they really fed on themselves. So the more I drank, the more loose I was with my lips, and I would talk to more people, and I would send more messages, and I wouldn’t care if someone said no to me. I’d keep bugging them. So it wore down my inhibitions enough to do things I wouldn’t normally do.

And then the more sales I made, it created a need to drink more, because then I’d meet people out for wine. I’d create events with alcohol around them. And a lot of these, there’s lots of parties in these MLMs, cocktails and conversations, and sangria and skincare. They’re always centered around alcohol. And so that fed on itself. So the more I drank, the more successful I was. The more successful it was, the more I drank.

Tori Dunlap:

And that can’t be an accident for the rest of the potential customers too. If you’re obviously inhibited, you’re more likely to make a decision that you wouldn’t have if you were sober. So that can’t be an accident.

Emily Paulson:

Right. And the night I signed up, I had a few glasses of wine. I probably wouldn’t have so easily given over my credit card information. It’s definitely part of it.

Tori Dunlap:

You hit on it in your book title, and it’s so obvious, I think. But the internalized misogyny of this whole thing, it preys specifically on women. We know, especially Herbalife has been unfortunately infamous for preying on people of color. I think largely the Hispanic community. How do they rely on that internalized misogyny? How are they baking it in, in order to maintain their success?

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. So it’s these faux female empowerment projects. They are sold as, “Be your own boss babe and make your own hours, have everything. You can have it all. You can be home with your kids, and you can be a she-EO. All these feminist, cringey, boss babe that I used to throw around myself. It all makes you feel like you’re doing something that’s empowering other women. And yet, the people who are making money are the very few women at the top, and the white men who are CEOs of these corporations.

So there’s all of this double speak of, “Screw your nine to five, make your own hours.” And yet this corporate America, “We hate corporate America.” But all of these companies are corporations. They’re all huge corporations run by white men.

So you are supporting these companies that you supposedly malign and hate. And you’re supposed to be empowering women, but all the people losing money are all women, and the people making money are men. So it’s fake. It’s all this fake language.

And then I think the reason that stay-at-home moms are such good bait is that our unpaid labor is already supporting the entire economy. So we’re used to working for free. So if you’re told, “Hey, you can post on social media and maybe make some money,” well, it’s labor. It’s free. I am already doing that work for free, so I’ll do more unpaid labor, that will probably lead me nowhere. And again, it’s that hope. The hope that maybe I’ll be that 1% will keep all that logic away from my brain.

So again, it supports the patriarchy. It supports white supremacy. And I got a lot of pushback at the beginning when the title was announced, like, “Supremacy.” And it’s like, look at the picture at any leadership event or any convention from any MLM. Do you see a lot of Black women there? Do you see a lot of Asian women there?

Tori Dunlap:

Women period.

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. Well, it’s all white chicks. It is all white chicks who are at the top of these pyramid schemes. And that is not an accident. And you have to have money to be successful. You have to get in early. And if people don’t see themselves represented, they’re not going to be drawn to those opportunities, nor would it be safe for them there.

And I can never think of an appropriate way to say this probably. But in a way, MLMs, and the people they target, and the way they target them is so racist. It’s so specific to an avatar of a white woman, that it actually protects a lot of people of color from getting involved in them. Of course, Herbalife, there was a lot of the Hispanic community that was targeted. But for the most part, it’s white women. And yet you’re told no matter what, you can succeed, no matter what your background is. It couldn’t be farther from the truth.

Tori Dunlap:

The irony in me asking this question is that when we had discussed MLMs in season one, when we had done our first episode about MLMs, there were people in the comments saying that we weren’t feminist, because we didn’t support women with small businesses.

Emily Paulson:

Wow.

Tori Dunlap:

What do you say to that?

Emily Paulson:

100%. And I probably said this. I’m sure I said this. So what is your definition of support? So a lot of people will be listening to this and they’re like, “Well, I buy this from my friend. I go to her parties, I support her. I don’t like MLMs, but I just support her.” That is not support.

Tori Dunlap:

I heard that a lot too from the first episode where they were like, “I don’t believe in them, but my friend does this, and I care about her and want to see her succeed. But I don’t like the company.” Yep, very similar.

Emily Paulson:

If you care about your friend who is in an MLM, do not buy her products, and do not join her team. Because all you are doing… Say you buy a $20 whatever, spatula, I don’t care. She is getting a very, very small portion of that money. More of it’s going to her upline, her upline, her upline, and the parent company.

So the people who are profiting off of this, not yo
ur friend. It’s just driving your friend more into this insular world, where she’s going to spend more money, and more money, and more money. If you want to be supportive of your friend, give her that $20 or take her out to lunch, babysit her kids. Ask why she’s involved in this MLM in the first place. Is she looking for friendship?

Step in and be a friend. Don’t buy that stuff. Don’t support her pyramids scheme. Be that friend. Maybe fill up her gas tank. I don’t know. Ask your friend what they need, why they joined that in the first place, and then support them that way. Because buying stuff from your friends in an MLM, going to their parties, keeping this ruse going is just going to keep them stuck longer. Because eventually-

Tori Dunlap:

It upholds it.

Emily Paulson:

Yep. Eventually, they will fail. Eventually, they will run out of money. But just hopefully before they destroy too many friendships or lose too much money, they will realize that their support, air quotes, is dried up. So don’t keep fanning the flames.

Tori Dunlap:

Well, and like you said before, it’s not a business. It’s not a business, it’s a corporation. You’re not running your own business. You’re not managing the expenses, and the finances, and the revenue, and hiring your own people. That’s not a business.

Emily Paulson:

No. Nor are you keeping track of what you’re spending, which again, is by design. You’re never told to keep a profit loss statement. You are told to spend, spend, spend, spend-

Tori Dunlap:

Which is like business 101.

Emily Paulson:

I know. But again, it’s not a business.

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah. When people are like, “Oh, you’re not supporting small businesses.” I’m like, “It’s not a business though. It’s a corporation.”

Emily Paulson:

It’s not a business. You’re supporting a huge corporation and the people at the top of the corporation. You’re not supporting your friend at all.

Tori Dunlap:

One thing I would be remiss if we didn’t touch on is the deep evangelical influence of MLMs as well. You talk about how faith is often weaponized in these businesses as a way to manipulate people into staying and sticking it out. How did you see that play out?

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. The faith manipulation is huge. And I will say on the team that I was on, there was definitely the prayer breakfasts, and the prayers before convention or whatever, but it wasn’t weaponized. I didn’t feel like it was weaponized against me. And maybe because I didn’t pay attention to it too much. But as a whole, God, it’s again, that prosperity gospel. So the prosperity gospel is all woven in.

And then there is this evangelical idea of, again, it’s like your purpose. This is your bigger purpose. And MLM is not just a job. And again, it’s not a job, because you don’t have a salary, and you don’t get rights. You don’t have any benefits. But it’s more than just going to work and then coming home. It takes up so much of your life and it becomes, “This is my vehicle for change. This is my vehicle for this. This is my purpose, my greater purpose. This is your purpose from God. This is why I was put on this earth.” And so it takes on this whole different vibe.

And so if you are a person who has a faith in God, has a belief, maybe you’re a member of a church, whatever, that gets weaponized against you. Because not only is it, “Well, it’s up to you.” But gosh, maybe you didn’t pray enough. Maybe God doesn’t bless you as much as blesses other people.

So it’s really damaging in that way. And I think MLMs do a really fantastic job of taking anything that we already flagellate ourselves with. Diet culture, the fact that there’s not a lot of different bodies shown on… It weaponizes all of that. There’s no body diversity. The faith manipulation is really, I think, the most damaging because here you are thinking, “Well, I just wasn’t a good enough boss babe,” but it’s like, “Oh, also God doesn’t like me.” How terrible is that?

So I think I got a more outsider perspective of it. But I definitely saw, I knew women, know women who are Jewish, for example, who were bullied like, “You need to convert to Christianity because the rapture’s coming.” And I saw all kinds of things you couldn’t believe around faith.

And it’s scary when you’re in that position, when it’s your upline telling you these things, and you already maybe are a person who kind of believes in that hierarchical structure like, “I go to my pastor, I go to my priest, I go to my deacon.” And then, “This is my upline.” So all of a sudden they’re like the person you’re going to for your business advice and your faith advice. It’s very damaging.

Tori Dunlap:

And the community.

Emily Paulson:

And the community.

Tori Dunlap:

I was saying before about how both good and bad, typically faith communities are your sense of belonging for a lot of people and your sense of community. again, some better than others. And cool, your MLM can not only provide you community, and money, and identity, but it can replace your church. You don’t have to go to church anymore, because you’re going to get the Jesus stuff right here.

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. And MLMs run rampant in church communities. Because again, they’re their own closed systems already, where people mostly believe the same things. And so if someone comes in and they’re like, “Wow, I believe all the same things as you. I’m the same as you, and I’m selling collagen pudding. Join me.” So you’re going to be like, “Cool.” And you’re going to join this other thing too. So it kind of bastardizes the whole thing.

Tori Dunlap:

I’m so angry. I’m so angry.

Emily Paulson:

I know. Well, and I do have to say before I forget it. So The Dream podcast was really the first information outside the commercial cult that I let myself listen to, because there was such this push. Again, if there was a negative anything, it was like, “Oh, don’t go listen to it. Don’t increase the SEO of it,” don’t whatever.

Tori Dunlap:

And then you’re like, “You’re telling me not to do something. I’m going to go do it.”

Emily Paulson:< /p>

Yeah. And so it was like, “Okay.” And so I did that for a while. But then once I started questioning things, I was like, “I’ve heard about this podcast and I’m going to listen to it.” I already knew that I didn’t like the MLM. There was a lot of things I wanted to get out of it. I’d gone dark.

But that’s when I realized I was in a cult. Listening to that podcast I was like, “Oh shit, I’m in a cult.” That was the first thing I listened to that I was like, “This is more than just me feeling like I’m doing something scammy. This is more than just the financial manipulation. This is a bigger thing.”

Tori Dunlap:

I would love to wrap us up a little bit with a MLM Rapid fire of what myths you’ve heard. I’ll get us started. One of the things that is perpetuated is you’re going to get a free car, like the Mary Kay free car. But I’ve discovered that you still have to pay payments, question mark, on that car? Let’s kick it off with the free car.

Emily Paulson:

Oh yeah, the car’s not free. I think that’s one of the biggest reuses is… Okay, so here’s how it works. So you qualify by hitting whatever metric it is within that company. Almost every company has a car program. So you hit that metric, whether it’s a sales figure, and it’s usually organizational wide. So you and your entire downline has to sell, I don’t know, $120,000 worth of something in the month. And you have to do that for a certain number of months. And again, this varies from company to company. When you do that, you are a car qualifier, or a car achiever.

So now what you get to do as a car qualifier is go to your own local dealership. And depending on what the car program is, it’s either a Lexus, or Mercedes, a Cadillac. They’re always luxury cars. And you go and you buy or lease or car with your credentials, with your credit. It doesn’t have a company name anywhere on it. You go buy your own car, and you put down the down payment. You pay for the title, the taxes, registration, everything.

So then you send all this stuff to the company, “Look, I bought this car.” Then they’ll give you a stipend. And this is anywhere from $250, upwards of maybe $1,000. That’s the highest I’ve heard of. And again, these are luxury cars. So that’s not usually enough to cover the payment. So you’re essentially getting a supplement to pay toward the car payment.

So now, you’re spending more money per month than you were before. And if you do not hold that title that you achieved, you do not get the stipend that month.

Tori Dunlap:

So it’s not The Price Is Right, where they get you a free car and here’s your car?

Emily Paulson:

No.

Tori Dunlap:

You have to maintain-

Emily Paulson:

No friend, no. You are just buying a car. You are just buying a car. And as long as you maintain this title, they give you a little money towards it. You’re essentially just getting a little bonus every month. But if you don’t maintain that title, you don’t get it. And then you’re stuck with a car payment. This car is just yours.

Tori Dunlap:

Which might be a benefit, but that’s not a free car.

Emily Paulson:

No, it’s not. It’s rarely a benefit, because you’re spending more money.

Tori Dunlap:

Right, because you have to, yeah.

Emily Paulson:

But what happens, and people are like, “Well, you don’t have to get the car, do you?” Well no, you don’t have to. But guess what? You’ve been shouted out everywhere as a car achiever. The company’s plastered you everywhere. Are you going to then not be driving the car?

Tori Dunlap:

You have the word car tattooed on your forehead. It’s a requirement.

Emily Paulson:

I know. You’re a car achiever. Why don’t you have a car? You have to get it. You’re ashamed into getting it. And I still have the car. People are like, “Do you still have the car?” I’m like, “Yeah, it was my car. I bought the car.” I was getting a stipend, but that car was mine. So everyone who’s driving these cars, the free car, it’s not free. It’s not the company’s. They just bought a car, and they may or may not be getting a stipend from the company. Most people do not maintain the title.

Tori Dunlap:

Other myth is that you’re a business owner. You’re not a business owner. What other myths am I missing that you want to debunk?

Emily Paulson:

I mean, the myth that anybody could make it, which could not be further from the truth. The myth that you don’t have to spend money. You do.

Tori Dunlap:

It’s all you’re doing, it seems like. It’s just spending money.

Emily Paulson:

Yep. The myth that it’s only certain companies. That’s one thing I hear. It’s like, “Oh, my company is not like that.” Yes, they are. And if you are willing to look at the research, and you are willing to look at all the numbers, and look at all the income disclosure statements, they are all the same. They are all the same. It is not about the product. It is all about recruiting people into the system to continue to dump more money into the system. They are pyramid schemes. That’s the other myth is, “Well, pyramid schemes are illegal.” That thought stopping cliche. I’m sure you’ve heard that.

Tori Dunlap:

So much.

Emily Paulson:

It’s like yeah, they are.

Tori Dunlap:

John Oliver, I’m sure you’ve seen the John Oliver story. He did a big splashy MLM thing a couple of years ago, and I think either pulled an interview or did an interview with one of the CEOs and it was like, “You’re a pyramid scheme.” And they’re like, “No, of course not. Because that’s illegal.” And it’s like, “Draw me your company structure. Draw me the way your company operates.” It’s a pyramid, y’all.

Emily Paulson:

It’s a pyramid. And just because something’s illegal, doesn’t mean illegal things don’t happen. That’s like saying, “You didn’t get robbed, robbery’s illegal.” No, people do illegal shit all the time. They jump through enough hoops to keep themselves legal enou
gh to stay in operation. It doesn’t mean it’s not a pyramid scheme. It’s 100% a pyramid scheme. So yeah, that’s one big one that people like to say.

And then again, “My MLM is different. If you work hard enough, you can make it.” And then if you don’t like the system, you must just be a hater. You must be hater, you must be anti-woman. I’m sure there’s many, many more myths.

Tori Dunlap:

I wanted to end on… You mentioned this before. If I’m out there listening, and let’s first say I’m in an MLM. What is the procedure of what I need to do to get out, in a way that’s going to prevent maximum damage?

Emily Paulson:

So I would say, first of all, if you’re listening to this, don’t feel judged. Don’t feel shame. Don’t feel called out. 100%, I know you got involved because you thought you were doing a good thing.

Tori Dunlap:

Yep.

Emily Paulson:

And maybe you still feel that way, and that’s very cool. Everyone has their different level of how involved they are. But just look at a couple of things.

Do a profit loss statement. First and best thing you could possibly do. Write down literally every expense you’ve had, depending how long you’ve been in. Maybe go back a couple of months, go back a year. Everything you’ve paid, childcare you’ve had to get, any decorations, and food, and alcohol you had to get for events, time you’ve had to take off your actual job, whatever. Any money that has come out of your pocket and gotten to this MLM. Then look at how much you’ve actually made. And then cut that in half, because again, taxes haven’t been taken out yet. And then do a little math. Look at how many hours a week you spend. Be really honest about the little texts here and there, the Zoom calls you have to get on, the threads that you’re on for these power hours and all this other bullshit. And just do a little math. “Okay, I’m making this much money per hour that I’m working.”

That I think for most people would be enough to say, “Oh my God, this is not worth it. This is not worth it. The value I’m getting from this, first of all, I’m losing money.” For most people, it’s going to be, “I’m losing money.”

And then I would say, ask yourself why you joined in the first place on a deeper level. What were you looking for? Did you want products at a discount? Because I’m going to tell you that MLM products are really inflated in price. So go ask your dermatologist or whatever, someone at a supplement store. Someone who maybe can give you a less biased answer. Products you can find a lot cheaper. So if you want cheaper products, there’s a lot of places to get cheaper products. You don’t need to pay money to get cheaper products. That in its face is just, no.

If you are joining for a community, look elsewhere for a community that doesn’t require someone making money off of you. Maybe an affinity group. There’s lots of them out there. Meetup group. Maybe you’re interested in rock climbing. I don’t know. Join a gym. Lots of ways to make a community. And if you’re looking for money, don’t join something that you’re going to spend money for. Go through, ask yourself all of those things.

And then I think, take a look at how you feel you are, as far as your level of harm. I have a lot of friends who are still in MLMs, who for whatever reason, can’t leave. Because again, they feel like they’ll lose friendships, or this is how they make money and now they’re stuck. So that’s not a condition of friendship for me.

But I would say, look at your level of harm being done. If you’re a person that you like the products, you got a customer here and there, your level of harm’s probably pretty low. If you’ve got a team of people who are losing money every month, just be willing to look in the mirror at the level of harm you are inflicting, and who you are keeping, again, in this insular world of people who are just dumping money into the system. For me, the harm was too great to continue to make money off of. So I think that’s important to look at too.

But give yourself grace. Have empathy for yourself. Have empathy for other people. Maybe the people who’ve left your own MLM, the people who give you advice to leave your MLM, maybe they’re not such haters after all. Maybe they just have a point or two.

Tori Dunlap:

That’s super helpful. Let’s talk to the people who are listening who have friends, who are running the MLM. How can we talk to our friends in a loving way, but also try to show them what’s actually going on? You gave the great advice before. As hard as that may be, don’t buy their shit. How can we talk to them? Again, you beautifully said, “I’m not trying to call you out. I’m not trying to make you feel ashamed.” But how can we start to have those conversations in a way where somebody is actually going to listen to us, the person that we care about?

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. I think, again, by being the soft place to land when they inevitably quit or realize that it’s not working for them, because that will likely happen. Most people last about four years. It’s kind of the average. Well a lot of people… I shouldn’t say that. Most people quit before a year.

So the people who try to make it work who are married, usually it’s about four years. So they’re going to fall into one of those camps. It’s going to be flash in the pan, or they’re going to really try and stick it out for a while, so be the soft place to land.

Again, don’t buy their stuff. Don’t go to their events. Don’t host events for them. Don’t join their team. Say, “No thank you.” Say no thank you nicely, and be the soft place to land. It is probably likely that anything you’re going to say will just reinforce what they’ve been told from their MLM that you’re a hater, that you’re not supportive. And so again, be willing to be the soft place to land when they inevitably fail. That’s, I think, the hardest place to be.

And I know because I was in that place. I was the person who you could have told me until you were blue in the face that I was in a cult, and I would’ve just said you were a hater, and probably spent less time with you. I think that’s a really hard place to be.

Tori Dunlap:

Emily, thank you for your work. Thank you for your vulnerability and transparency. I think that’s so important always, but especially where there’s so much shame, and guilt, and all of those emotions wrapped up in all of this, so thank you. Where can people find out more about you?

Emily Paulson:

Yeah. So I am Emily Lynn Paulson on most platforms. My book Hey, Hun is in stores wherever you buy your books. Please support your local bookstore if you can, but it’s available everywhere. And also if you’re ever looking for sobriety support and you’re a mom, you can find out more information at sobermomsquad.com.

Tori Dunlap:

I love it. Thank you for being here.

Emily Paulson:

Yeah, thanks Tori.

Tori Dunlap:

Thank you so much to Emily for joining us. Again, so important to talk about how these companies impact people, and how MLMs just get perpetuated as these really good business opportunities for women and people of color, but how they’re truly just scams. For more information, we’ll link it in the show notes. John Oliver, a couple years ago, I mentioned this in the episode, did a great segment about MLMs and how damaging they are, especially companies like Herbalife. I really encourage you, if you’re interested more in this topic, to go and watch that.

There’s also The Dream podcast as well as our interview with Jane Marie from season one if you’re interested in diving into this topic more, as well as Emily’s book called, Hey, Hun, that’s available wherever you get your books.

Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for just allowing us to continue talking about these really important subjects, so that we can hopefully prevent people from getting scammed, and prevent people from experiencing bullshit financial schemes. So thank you for being here, and thank you for your support of the show. We hope you have a great week, and we’ll see you soon.

Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer Tanisha Grant, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Kahlil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda Leffew, Masha Bachmetyeva, Kailyn Sprinkle, Sumaya Mulla-Carrillo, and Harvey Carlson. Research by Ariel Johnson, audio engineering by Alyssa Midcalf, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.