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Are financial fears holding you back? Have you ever felt anxious about money or career choices? In this episode of Financial Feminist, Tori engages in a candid money conversation with Farnoosh Torabi, a renowned financial expert, author, and host of the “So Money” podcast. Farnoosh shares her wisdom on overcoming fears and embracing financial empowerment. Together, they dive deep into the various fears that hold us back — whether in our careers, relationships, or personal growth and how to reframe them as a means of protection rather than restraint. Tune in as they explore the power of self-awareness, the importance of setting boundaries, and the path to finding wholeness in a world that often encourages us to play small.

Early money lessons from family

As an Iranian-American woman whose parents immigrated to the United States, Farnoosh considers herself lucky to have been born in America but to have experienced money and finances from two different angles — from her parent’s perspective as immigrants who left their home country during a time of revolution, and had to figure out how to survive — and from her own perspective as an Iranian American woman who grew up here watching her parents figure out how to survive.

“My parents taught me a lot of the important steps that we should all take about money…paying off your debt…spending within your means. But I think that they always had this appreciation for the fact that life could always turn on you on a dime. Like nothing is guaranteed, hard work is important, but you also have to be prepared for a lot of uncertainty in your life.”

Those values and being familiar with risk and uncertainty helped define the woman that Farnoosh would become and is part of the reason why she’s such a strong believer in personal advocacy and learning what’s best for you. “Your success is very personal. Your definition of success is very personal. And, of course, you should be the first person to care about that and be the biggest advocate for that.”

Breaking free from societal pressures

Tori and Farnoosh discuss the pressures that often encourage women to downplay their achievements or financial stability, especially in dating. Farnoosh shares her experience of challenging these expectations by embracing her true self, regardless of societal norms. She recalls her exhaustive journey of playing small for fear of exposing her true self and realizing that by being herself, she attracted the right partner into her life.

“As soon as I sort of reconciled with that fear of potentially always being lonely alone, I met my husband, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence. I think that when I decided that I wasn’t going to settle and that I would be perfectly fine with never getting married, I walked into dates a totally different person.”

Her advice is to walk into situations authentically and with vulnerability. By doing so, we not only find our ideal relationships but also strengthen our self-esteem.

“You can be afraid and still be really successful. You can be fearful and fulfilled, scared and smart. Both can live in harmony.”

From stand-up comedy to writing a book to becoming a financial expert, Farnoosh details more of how her life has been shaped by taking risks and doing things even though we might be fearful.

The conversation delves into how fear can manifest in various aspects of life, including our careers, relationships, and personal aspirations. When asked about how a person can begin to work through some of their fears and anxiety surrounding specific issues, Farnoosh suggests you get specific about what it is you’re afraid of and write it down. But then she wants you to reframe it. “Rather than this is what I’m afraid of, write down, this is actually what I’m trying to protect. Now that you know what you want to protect, it feels more tangible to you than just this sort of existential fear.”

She also touches on a few of the most common types of fears we experience (she details nine types in her book, “A Healthy State of Panic”)

• fear of failure

• fear of uncertainty

• fear of rejection

• fear of missing out

Farnoosh and Tori talk more about conquering your fears and embracing a more empowered financial and personal life on this week’s episode of Financial Feminist.

Farnoosh’s links:

A Healthy State of Panic

So Money Podcast

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Transcript:

Farnoosh Torabi:

But I think that at some point, you have to reconcile with your fear of failure, because it can be all consuming. It can make you feel like you just do not deserve to move forward. And if you are someone who is ambitious, who believes that they are worth all the great experiences, then you have to accept that when the fear of failure shows up, it is normal, but it is your job as a person with agency to say, “This is not exclusive to me. This is perhaps an opportunity. Failure sometimes is the point. And I’m going to take with me the learnings from this failure to the next thing. I’m already on the train.”

Tori Dunlap:

And I listened to Call Me Maybe for the first time in a long time the other day and I was like, “This song’s still, it’s a bop.” She doesn’t produce anything but bops. We can keep this. If you are sleeping on Carly Rae Jepsen, I’m sorry, what are you doing? I mean, Cut to the Feeling. I really, really, really, really like you. Run Away With Me, arguably her best song. Hold on, I’m going to the catalog. No Drug Like Me. Run Away With Me (singing). It’s so good. What are some of the other ones? All of Emotion is great. Okay, that’s fine. Kristen’s just like, “You have 12 minutes before your next call.” And I’m like, “Before I introduce Farnoosh, we are going to talk about Carly Ra Jepsen.” Oh Boy Problems. It never charted. It was a great song. I Didn’t Just Come Here to Dance, another great song. But yeah, Run Away With Me. And, I’m literally going to listen to Emotion after this. It’s so good. Carly Ray Jepsen.

Hi everybody, welcome to the show. Welcome to this show. I’m so excited to see you. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being Financial Feminist. We hope you enjoy this lovely episode with one of my friends and fellow finance experts, Farnoosh Torabi. She is absolutely amazing. Before we get into that, happy spooky season to all who celebrates. I just love Fall. It is my favorite season. Halloween is one of my favorite holidays. Fun fact, I used to dress up in a coordinated costume with my father. Yes, it was adorable. We started this when I was probably nine or 10 years old.

My dad has the very specific belief when it comes to Halloween that you should not buy a costume, and anybody who buys a costume is fucking cheating. So he would hand make his costume, he would go to Value Village and get all of the things together.

So one year he went as Shrek. He painted his entire body green. There was green paint in my Nana’s bathroom for years after that, because he got ready there. He also went as SpongeBob and he literally bought the furniture foam, and put one piece on his front and one piece on his back, and then tied it together with a belt. And then he couldn’t see, so I led him around the whole night. And we started coordinating costumes when he was Napoleon Dynamite and I was Pedro, and we have the photo somewhere. Maybe we’ll post him on social. It was adorable.

There was one year we went as mimes, and so you can’t say trick or treat. So I had a sign that said trick or treat. One year we went as Kiss, the band Kiss. That was great. We dressed up, and we stuck our tongues out, and we painted our faces, and it was fantastic. And without getting too emotional, it’s still one of my favorite memories of all of my childhood was my dad and I coordinating costumes and dressing up together, and he would always take it really seriously. And he was always just the best girl dad. So yeah, okay, I’m going to really cry now if I keep going.

But that’s why I love Halloween. Halloween is just lovely. And especially with all of the little kids who have their little cute costumes and they get so excited, candy’s great, and just welcome to spooky season, everybody.

To tie it back into the episode though, there is nothing spookier and more haunting than anxiety, and specifically anxiety with your finances. Couple stats about financial anxiety. In April of 2023, 52% of US adults said money had a negative impact on their mental health, including causing stress. And not shocking. Women are more likely to experience financial stress than men. 56% of women said money had a negative effect on their mental health compared to 47% of men. And we certainly see this in our audience, as financial anxiety is one of these main comments we see across our social media, across our community. So we are here bringing on fellow finance expert Farnoosh Torabi to talk about her brand new book, A Healthy State of Panic.

Farnoosh Torabi is one of America’s leading personal finance experts. She’s the host of the award-winning podcast that I have been on twice called So Money, that has earned over 30 million downloads. She’s a sought after speaker and author of multiple books. Her next is entitled A Healthy State of Panic, part memoir, part guidebook on how fear can be a superpower to achieve true wealth and career success. Along with being featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and Time Magazine, Farnoosh has appeared frequently on Today, Good Morning America, and more. She’s a graduate of Pennsylvania State University with a degree in finance and holds a master’s degree from the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism.

In this episode, we get into the different types of fears that exist, not only around finances, but also around careers and our relationships. Why sometimes fear can actually be a healthy thing, and not something to avoid at all costs. Where some of these common fears may be holding you back, and a bunch more. This is one of my favorite episodes we’ve done in a minute. Farnoosh is not only a friend, but also just so wise. And is just a wealth of knowledge, pun intended, about everything related to money. But specifically about how to harness all of these emotions that we might label as negative to actually be beneficial in our life. So let’s go ahead and get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors.

I don’t know if I’ve seen you in pink. You look very Barbie to
day.

Farnoosh Torabi:

My backdrop is so dark and gloomy that I was like, “I need to wear something bright. Otherwise it’s going to be very sad.”

Tori Dunlap:

It looks good on you. Were you the person who was very anti pink? Because that was me for a long time, was I was very anti pink.

Farnoosh Torabi:

I mean, look, I spent my twenties in New York and my thirties. Pink was not my go-to ever. Color was not my go-to ever. I was black, navy blue, white, and then I discovered patterns and color. And I think it just coincided also with me getting happier in life, so feeling like things were working out. And I was like, “I think I feel like a little pattern today.” I think it comes with also just experimenting. I don’t know, I had some pretty cool fly women role models, and they were very into style. I didn’t have any money though. Once those things fall into place, once you have the money and the attitude, then I think you go for the jewel tones.

Tori Dunlap:

Totally. I’m starting to reevaluate after you said that, because I wear a lot of black because I feel like that’s the cool Parisian girl vibe thing to do.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Yeah.

Tori Dunlap:

I have very little patterns actually, now that I think about it.

Farnoosh Torabi:

You should just go for it. Diane von Furstenberg does some of fun patterns. She was like my gateway to-

Tori Dunlap:

Oh no, she’s great. There’s one that, it’s in Chelsea.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Yeah, it’s in Meatpacking District.

Tori Dunlap:

Have you been there? And it’s a whole mural of inspiring women. It’s really cool.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Yeah, yeah. I love it. I used to work right around the corner at Chelsea Market.

Tori Dunlap:

Yep. Really close. We’re just so excited to have you. You and I have been frequent collaborators, and you have been such a mentor to me in my work. Couldn’t do the work that I do without you paving the way. I would love to ask you a question that I ask all of our finance experts who come on the show, which is, what is your first money memory? What is the first time you remember thinking about money?

Farnoosh Torabi:

Wow. Well, so many memories. I mean, I had an abnormal amount of money memories. I think growing up as a kid, my parents are Middle Eastern and immigrants, and they shared all of it with me. I was an only child for the first 10, 11 years of my life too. So it was like the three of us, and we were the Three Musketeers, three money musketeers. And I got to see when my mother, for the first time, I think I was five or six years old, she took me to Jordan Marsh, which is… Well I think it’s now Macy’s as all the department stores at one point consolidated. We lived in Worcester, Massachusetts, and so Jordan Marsh was our big department store. And she would go there sometimes and pay off her Jordan Marsh credit card. And I was like, “Why are we at this counter for what seems like forever?” This is before you could pay your bills online. And I guess we weren’t affording any stamps back then. So we would just go to Jordan Marsh and pay off the statement.

And she’d explained to me that this is because we bought back to school clothes or whatever, “And now I’m paying the bill.” And then there was the layoff counter at T.J. Maxx. So with my mom, it was a lot of memories of shopping and paying off debt, but always paying off the debt. That was important, and I got to witness that and she explained it to me.

I think just also the memories of growing up in Worcester, Massachusetts, which then and still is a very working class city in America, really hard workers in Worcester, and diversity. And I remember going to school with kids who didn’t have much, and it showed in the clothing that they wore and the lunches that they were eating. And I’m so grateful for all of those experiences. That’s why I’ve chosen to live in the city, for example, for as long as I did with my kids. I wanted them to at least see that everybody lives differently. Even in the suburbs, I chose it specifically because of all the suburbs that could have lived in New Jersey, it has probably the highest diversity ratio. So economic, social, political, all of it. I think that for me was a gift. And maybe my parents wouldn’t have chosen Worcester readily, but it was where we landed. And I don’t know if I would have the appreciation that I do today and the empathy that I have today, if it wasn’t for those early days in Worcester.

Tori Dunlap:

Well, and what you mentioned that I want to explore more is I know from your story that your family immigrated to the US from Iran in the 1970s. So how does your experience immigrating affect how they taught you about money, what they taught you about money, and just your general experience of money management coming into a completely different country, and really a different world?

Farnoosh Torabi:

Yeah, I was very lucky to be born here. It was just so much luck has been a role in my life. And I think that on the one hand, my parents taught me a lot of the important steps that we should all think about money. Paying off your debt, spending within your means.

But I think that they always had this appreciation for the fact that life could always turn on you in a dime. Nothing is guaranteed. Hard work is important, but you also have to be prepared for a lot of uncertainty in your life. I mean, they immigrated here in the late ’70s from Iran, with the backdrop of a revolution happening in their home country.

So they’re very, very familiar with risk and uncertainty. And that was a big part of, I think, part of the value system that I was raised with. It was, yes, on the one hand, walk the straight and narrow, get the good grades, work hard. But also, prepare for the worst. Always know that nobody cares more about your money than you. Nobody caress more about your success than you. And it’s not because people are out to get you, or because people are scheming, or that people don’t love you. It’s just that money is very personal and your success is very personal. Your definition of success is very personal. And of course, you should be the first person to care about that and be the biggest advocate for that.

And I am so grateful for that message, because I actually wrote an op-ed about this, just how millennials and Gen Z’ers today, they were told by their parents, “Work hard, go to college, everything s
hould work out.” Why shouldn’t it? I mean it worked for them by and large. And I think that’s not enough. It’s not enough to just say, “Go do all these things that worked for people 50 years ago.” In fact, I think that’s pretty problematic to think that that’s going to work out equally.

And I think along the way, you should also be telling your children, your loved ones that having a sense of entitlement is only a recipe for disappointment. Yes, there are some things that we know have worked for others in the past. And if you can go to college and come out debt-free, please go for it. But it’s not the only way, and it’s not necessarily the way that’s going to lead to your financial success or your career success. You have to be strategic, you have to be creative, you have to get uncomfortable, you have to have a plan, B, C, D E, F, G.

And my parents had all of that, and their road to now being where they are, which is homeowners, able to retire, accomplishing the “American dream” was not a straight path. But I watched it all, the zigzags, the ups and downs. And that for me was more of an education on how to be and how to live with your money than any textbook could have taught me.

Tori Dunlap:

One of my other favorite things about you, and I just want you to talk about it briefly, and then we’ll get to the more meaty financial and panic questions, is that you’re also a standup comedian. Talk to me about that, because that’s my favorite little fun fact about you.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Okay, well that’s a huge title that you just gave me. I think I would say that I am a amateur standup comedian wannabe. I took a standup comedy class in 2018. It was this bootcamp course which was so much fun. And then at the culmination of that, they had us perform in front of a warm audience of friends and family. So it wasn’t like I was going into swim with sharks. But it was so much fun, and I got to live a childhood dream of performing on stage, making people laugh.

And I don’t know, I caught a bug, and I started to perform a little bit more throughout the year. I got the chance to perform at Caroline’s and a few more times at Gotham Comedy in Chelsea. And I think that while maybe a little part of me was wishing that it would kind of take on a life of its own, and I don’t know, take me to the stars, and maybe a Netflix special. But truthfully, the economics of standup comedy are terrible.

Tori Dunlap:

Terrible.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Terrible.

Tori Dunlap:

Awful.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Just awful. I’m spoiled, I guess. I don’t want to leave my house at 11:00 PM to go make $13 telling jokes in front of drunk people. I just don’t want to do that. And I don’t think you have to. I think that the pandemic actually made it so, so many talented people could get discovered on their own on social media, and then still make it in the big leagues. And they weren’t doing the sort of smoke-filled Comedy Cellars.

Which look, I think there’s a lot to gain from being in front of a live audience, and failing, and getting the laughs. But for me, for where I was in my life, this was really just pure entertainment for me and joy. I wasn’t looking at it as a career move.

But I will say that when I posted the… And this is probably a longer answer that you were going for, but I’m going to tie a bow on this story, which will relate to the next thing which we’ll talk about, which is the book. But I posted one of my clips on social media from, I think it was Caroline’s or one of the events.

My standup material is very much what is in the book, where I talk about growing up the daughter of immigrants and the irony of my parents being these risk takers, and then coming here, and then letting me do absolutely nothing. Their recipe for success was stay home. That was a lot of my act, but a lot of my truth.

And a literary agent reached out and said, “Do you have more of this material? It’s so funny.” And I said, “Yeah, sure. Do you mean written down?” I just thought, “Well, I lived this so the material is abundant.” And she said, “Yeah, please start writing if you want. I would love to look at your stories and see where maybe we could take this professionally in terms of a book.”

And so those stories I began to write about late 2018, all during the pandemic as well. And now there’s a book called A Healthy State of Panic, which is the culmination of not just those comedy stories, those comedic stories, but really the 43 plus years I’ve lived walking this planet, and experiencing fear, and somehow still being okay. And I think that’s what I want to talk about in the book, which is that you can be afraid and still really successful. You can be fearful and fulfilled, scared and smart. Both can live in harmony.

Tori Dunlap:

You just made the transition I was going to make. I love this example of standup comedy, because it feels so terrifying. I have also thought about dabbling in standup. I’ve written jokes in my head.

Farnoosh Torabi:

You’d be good at it.

Tori Dunlap:

And then I think about it. I have a background in theater. A lot of our friends. A lot of finance experts, we have backgrounds in theater and performance, and I’ve thought about doing it. But it’s so scary, right? It’s this idea of very vulnerably getting up in front of people on a stage, which is scary for most people, period. But then talking about typically your own experience, and your own experience in a way that tries to make people laugh. And to your point, your audience is drunk people, and people who have literally come to just heckle you.

So one of the recurring themes of this podcast recently has been this fear of failure that holds women back from so many things. And not only the big things, developing your career, or potentially meeting somebody that you’re going to spend the rest of your life with, like this deep fear of failure in regards to these big milestones. But I think also, this fear of failure allows us to unfortunately miss out on so many beautiful opportunities of a life well lived.

So talk to me a bit about your research and what you discovered linking this fear of failure, this fear of messing up. Or this again, state of panic that a lot of women feel. And how that equates to either their happiness, their careers, etc.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Yeah, the fear of failure is central to the book. I talk about many different types of fears in the book. The fear of failure is a big one. I also talk about the fear of uncertainty, the fear of rejection, FOMO. But the fear of failure was my longest chapter, because I’ve experienced many of them myself, and I had a lot of stories to tell.

But
I think the wisdom in the fear of failure is multi part. One is that I find that when we fear failure, maybe it’s a nudge to tell us that our standards for success are totally out of whack, that we fear failure because we’ll probably fail. But what we really need to sit with is, why? Why does this feel unattainable to us? And maybe it’s because it’s not the sort of success that we really, really want, but it’s the success that we’ve been told we should strive for.

An example of this is when I was in my twenties working at a magazine, Money Magazine. And I had a great experience there for the most part, but there was one day when I almost got fired, and it was over a silly mistake I printed in the magazine. You can read it all about it in the book, but essentially was pulled aside and said, “If you make another mistake, we’re going to have to take your badge and that’s it.”

And I was 23 years old, I had a master’s in journalism from Columbia, an Ivy League. Are you telling me that I’m going to get fired over this one fact issue? And it wasn’t this sort of mistake that I told everybody, that they should invest in crypto or something. It was like I defined Dollar Stores incorrectly. I said, “Dollar Stores are where you can go and everything’s a dollar.”

And then my editor realized after the fact, after it was printed, after it was sitting in all of the dentist’s office around the country, that no, not all Dollar Stores sell things for just a dollar. Sometimes it’s $2, sometimes it’s 5. And so that Dollar Store mistake almost costing my job.

And when I sat with that fear of literally losing my job, that fear of failure was very literal and visceral. I called my mom. And I was crying and I was walking up and down Midtown, 50, I think it was 48th Street, Sixth Avenue. Loud, bustling New York. I’m holding my Motorola razor phone close to my lips so she can hear me, and I’m terrified to tell her this, because I’m thinking she’s going to think I’m such a loser and she’s going to yell at me. And she said, in Farsi, she said [Farsi 00:20:51] which means those idiots. And I said, “Those idiots, mom? I’m the idiot. I made the mistake.” She goes, “No, those idiots. They didn’t fact check your work? They didn’t walk you through this before it printed. Were you the only one who wrote this article and sought to print? You work there. There’s a hierarchy. You fact check people’s articles every single day. You are the reason so many mistakes don’t happen at the magazine. Now you get the chance to write your own article, and there’s no safety net for you.”

I’m all for personal accountability. I took ownership of that mistake. But also, I realized that where I was working was not exactly a place for cultivating my talents, and being mentored, and learning from my mistakes, as opposed to you make a mistake and you’re almost going to get fired. I think in your twenties, your metric for success when it comes to your career is not so much working somewhere that’s going to pay you all the money. Money’s important. But also a place that’s going to nurture you and foster you, because you only have come out of college maybe at best, and you deserve the chance to fail.

And I recognized that I was afraid of failing, because I was misleading myself. I had misled myself to believe that being at Money Magazine and rising through the editor ranks in the magazine world was going to be the end all for me. The be all, end all.

And objectively, it was a very cushy role. My editor in chief made probably seven figures. Senior editors did very well. They had town homes in Park Slope, and they were sending their kids to private school. So financially it was like a cushy job back then, maybe not so much.

And so objectively, yeah, I mean that’s what I thought I wanted. And the way that that mistake was handled at that job was a sign that I need to get out of here, and I am not going to let them fire me. If anything, I’m going to kick ass.

I made sure that the next four months, five months, I delivered above and beyond. I felt like every time I got an assignment, it was a test. And by the end, they actually offered a full-time role for me to stay, but I’d already committed to another job.

And that’s one example of how the fear of failure showed up for me early on in my twenties. And how I was able to look at it, sit with it, ask it questions like, “I’m fearing failure. Why? Is it perhaps because the room that I’m in, the job that I’m in, the success that I am after is not actually aligned with what I want and what my values are?” That’s just one example. I could go on.

Tori Dunlap:

No, that’s fantastic. Just such a great learning experience. Not just for you being like, “Okay, I’m going to kick and I’m going to redeem myself.” But also this moment of, there’s so many feelings of powerlessness I think in your early twenties, especially in your career. And if you’re in “trouble,” it’s like, “Oh my God, it’s something that I did,” as opposed to, am I in an environment that actually encourages me to learn? And I love that that became the question.

The other thing we’ve talked about too, and I would love your thoughts on, I think a lot of women do fail. We all fail, or they mess up, or they make a mistake. And as opposed to stating a fact which is, “Yep, I failed,” or, “I made a mistake,” it is an identity thing. It is, “I am a mistake,” or, “I am a failure.” And this incident becomes a defining moment in a way, where now they’re identifying with these feelings that is who they are now. “I didn’t just fail. I am a failure.” How did you differentiate that between, again, an incident that happened versus Farnoosh’s identity?

Farnoosh Torabi:

Boy, I mean I grappled with this myself. I think it’s really hard. It feels inextricable. Yeah, you’re right. It feels like your identity, you are a failure. My best offer here is to think about… Elizabeth Gilbert did this Ted Talk on the idea of genius. I’m going to go a little different direction here, but I think it really relates back to the concept of identifying so much with an experience making it who you are.

So she did this amazing TED Talk about finding your genius. And I think she said ultimately in our culture, we have this tendency to think that when we create something beautiful, a piece of work, an art, a book, a painting, a poem, we’re called a genius. And therefore it’s really, really hard to sort of identify your next act. There’s a lot of pressure to feel like you can perform at that genius level, with your genius self again.

And she said, “I think the mistake is that rather than being a genius, we have to think the genius comes through us, and it’s just kind of working its way through the world. And maybe we catch it by luck. And by chance when it comes to us, we work with it and we create the item. But we don’t live in this zone of genius all the time. It is a moving thing. It’s this ethereal energy that is something that a lot of other cultures have accepted and embraced.”

For some reason here in the United States, in the western culture, we sort of feel like the genius is who you are. Maybe it’s we have just really big egos. But I think going back to this idea of failure, sort of the same thing. Failure, it comes and goes. It doesn’t define who you are. It is this thing in passing. And I think it c
omes because it has a lot to teach you. I thank my failures.

Zoe Saldana recently said on Instagram, because I think that Instagram, the algorithm knows me so well at this point, and knows I love content on failure. But I fell upon one of her old interviews and she said, “I think that my superpower more or less is that I really, really know who I am. So I love the way I learn. I love the way that I choose to work. I love the way I fail. I love my failures, because they teach me constantly about who I am.” Again, this is I think, an evolved mindset. I don’t think that you come out from the womb knowing this, feeling this, believing this. But I think that at some point you have to reconcile with your fear of failure, because it can be all consuming. It can make you feel like you just do not deserve to move forward.

And if you are someone who is ambitious, who believes that they are worth all the great experiences, then you have to accept that when the fear of failure shows up, it is normal. But it is your job as a person with agency to say, “This is not exclusive to me. This is perhaps an opportunity. Failure sometimes is the point. And I’m going to take with me the learnings from this failure to the next thing. I’m already on the train.”

Tori Dunlap:

That is so wise. I love Liz Gilbert too. I love everything out of that woman’s mouth. And yet, that TED Talk is so incredible. With this fear in general, right? You have a book out called A Healthy State of Panic. Your book breaks down the nine types of fears. We don’t have to go through all of them, but can you talk about a few of the common ones and maybe walk through your advice for them?

Farnoosh Torabi:

So the book tackles nine big fears. It’s not a thorough anthology on fear, but I thought it was important to distill fear. We often talk about fear as this monolith, this four letter word monolith. And I think that in order to really feel that agency that I want us to all have with fear and to feel empowered, we have to be able to call it out specifically.

And that’s because when you do that, you know what the tools then are. And the book tells you if you’re, for example, feeling the fear of rejection, versus the fear of money, versus the fear of failure. There are different wisdoms to extract. There are different things to consider, mindsets, frameworks that are specific. Or not exclusive, but patterned with that fear.

As I say, a lot of these fears, they buddy up sometimes. Sometimes, you’re not exclusively feeling the fear of failure. Sometimes it’s failure, and rejection, and money, and sometimes it’s this beautiful cocktail. But I wanted to identify them specifically, the ones at least I have definitely experienced, and I think to some extent are universal.

And the way I designed it in the book is to start with the ones that we tend to experience earlier in life. And then as we grow up, and mature, and life evolves, and our plates get fuller, that then we start to really experience the more mature fears.

So we start with things like the fear of rejection and loneliness. Two things that I grapple with a lot in those early days, those early school years of being constantly the new girl, constantly having to introduce myself to a room full of strangers. And immediately having to read the room, immediately having to put my guard up, and not loving that.

And then there’s FOMO, which we’ve already named it once in this podcast. It’s sort of modern day fear, but again, one that I think shows up as we engage with social media and socialize. And then we get into uncertainty, and failure and money, which I think at this point you can tell we’re kind of getting older. We’re getting to those years where the stakes are getting higher.

Then of course the fear of endings, which was a very hard chapter to write, because it’s gutting to think about all the bad endings. Or even the good endings, but they’re still endings and they’re bittersweet. But the ending of a relationship, the ending of a life, yours, someone you love. The ending of something you were really excited about happening and then it doesn’t. And the last chapter is the fear of losing your freedom.

That’s not so much the fear of let’s say, God forbid, losing our democracy, which I know is hanging by a thread. But, the personal freedoms that we do have at least some control over pursuing.

And I think that this is a very individual chapter where we may all understand what this fear is. But in terms of what we deem personally important to us, what are our hierarchy of personal freedoms? It’s very, very unique and very personal.

And so part of the exercise of that chapter is figuring out, what are the important freedoms, personal freedoms that are non-negotiable for you? And to get really specific about that. Because when you fear those things, then they catalyze you. They mobilize you to actually go do the thing.

I remember interviewing a woman who had just gotten divorced in the pandemic. Four children, jobless, had applied to 50 jobs, kept getting rejected. Was living in her mother’s one bedroom with all of her children sleeping in one bed. And the night that she decided to listen to her fear is when her life changed for the better.

She said to me, “Farnoosh, I sat at night once my kids were all asleep, staring at them crying, realizing, just how scared I was. And I wasn’t so much scared about today, but I was scared about a year from now still being in this situation.” For her, there was a real loss of potential freedom of being able to mother her children the way that she wanted, of having some autonomy, financial autonomy. And that fear she said catalyzed her.

The next day she took her stimulus check, which had come in the mail, used it to buy some equipment. She started going online. She was an expert in sales, and marketing, and fundraising, and started to amass a very loyal following. And her goal was to make about $10,000 a month, which sounded high to me. But I mean, listen, this woman’s ambitious. And she ended up crossing seven figures in the first year, and fear was her constant friend during those 12 months. I just love that story.

Tori Dunlap:

I think for me, what you just said was the fear of endings as well. My biggest fear is death by far. It holds us back from so many things. And to your point, how you manage them and if you’re mindful of them completely changes your view on them. Yeah, that is one conversation for my therapist, but conversation for another time about how to manage that fear.

Can we talk about the fears that people have around money specifically? What does that look like? What does that show up as? And you and I have both talked at various times about the uncomfortability. Of course talking about money, but also sharing our net worth, sharing our salary. I’d love to dive into that, because some of the comments we get in response to me sometimes are just, “You say you’re transparent, but now you won’t share anymore.” How have you navigated that?

Farnoosh Torabi:

We live in a world where we pray at the altar of transparen
cy, and bearing it all, and no boundaries. I mean, I dedicated a whole chapter to the fear of exposure. I think you are very brave for even sharing what you share, Tori. I don’t do much sharing on that front. And it’s not because I’m embarrassed or trying to be secretive. I guess I do share, but I share in the rooms that I find safer for me.

Tori Dunlap:

Well, it is a safety thing, especially for women. I was on another podcast about this. I used to literally post screenshots of my personal capital login like, “This is exactly how much money I have in my bank account.” And unfortunately, the very thing that you and I are trying to fight against, which is this discomfort when women pursue and have wealth, is the very thing that I am concerned about, and the reason I am not as fully transparent as I think I was maybe five years ago when I wasn’t as public of a person.

Farnoosh Torabi:

I applaud that. I think, like I say, on the very first page of A Healthy State of Panic, I’ve known the world’s a scary place for a long time. And I’m reminded of that every day when I work with people and their money, when I am talking about my own money.

You’re right that there is a fine line between sharing, and being helpful, and being constructive, and having ricochet and backfire, and getting penalized, and it’s not your fault. But again, the world is not always very inviting.

But specifically about the fear of money, that chapter really encompasses so many of the trepidations that we have around money, unlike a lot of the other chapters that capture the fear of a state of being or a state of mind like loneliness or rejection. Money is not a state of anything. It’s just a tool. And yet, we have so much fear. We give it so much power.

And so the first exercise, whether it’s losing your investments, losing your job, the fear of starting a conversation with a partner over money because you’re afraid it’s going to blow up and you’ll split up. The fear of addressing your debt, your bills, we go all of the places in that chapter.

But I think that the first step when that fear shows up is to have a conversation with it and ask it this. “Where did you come from? Who brought you here?” I think that how we feel about money, the fear specifically that we feel around money, there’s a story there. And it is our job to unearth that story, because again, money is just a tool. So if you are afraid of money, it is because you are afraid of your relationship with money. And the relationship runs deep.

And so tracing it back to the root of where you first caught that fear is so important. Even if you decide that that fear is legit or you decide it’s not, that journey is one of the most powerful things you can do for yourself. Because what you’re essentially doing is going on a journey, getting closer to who you are, the stories that you have kept going and going for all these years, the people that are influencing you. And at the end of that journey, the goal is to figure out whether or not you want to rewrite that fear narrative, so that you can go and do the thing that you actually do want to do.

I was afraid for a very long time of earning more money. That sounds nuts, saying that as the woman who wrote a book called When She Makes More, the breadwinner in my family, publicly talking all about this stuff. And it wasn’t that I don’t want to be financially independent, none of that, of course.

But I got to a point, it was probably my mid-thirties, where I was exceeding my spouse’s income by and large, and we had a very comfortable life. We had everything I thought we needed, and I thought could try to push the envelope and make more money, and maybe make millions of dollars. But I was afraid that that pursuit was going to cost me more than I was willing to give up. I had it in my mind that necessarily trying to make more money for me would come at the cost of having a strange relationship with my husband, not seeing my kids, and being vilified by those who loved me even, who thought, “Why is she working so hard? Why is she still trying to make more money? Isn’t it enough?” I’ve heard that a lot by the way in my life. “Isn’t it enough for you? Isn’t it enough?”

Tori Dunlap:

Which by the way, I don’t mean to stop you. We never ask men.

Farnoosh Torabi:

No.

Tori Dunlap:

We never ask men that question. Nobody goes to Elon Musk. I mean you and me maybe, but the vast majority of people are not going to Elon Musk and being like, “When is it enough?”

Farnoosh Torabi:

“When will it be enough?” No. If anything, they go, “What’s next for you?” And my intelligent brain Tori, was telling me, “This is nonsense.” And nevertheless, here I was feeling like I couldn’t play bigger, because it would come at a cost. That was my fear.

And then I remember, because I’m a financial author and writer, on one of the days I was sitting with a much wiser woman in personal finance interviewing her for an article. And we got to talking about all of this, about just my own hesitation. And I felt very justified in that. I was like, “I’m good.” I didn’t want to push the envelope.

And again, this is the immigrant daughter in me who probably felt like trying to make more money would require taking on more risks, and I didn’t want to do that. I didn’t want to… Again, there’s this expression in Farsi. I don’t know if it translates that much. I think it probably does translate in English well, and it would make sense in our culture. But it’s just essentially just sit where you are. [Farsi 00:38:48], sit where you are, know your place. Don’t push your luck.

Anyway, all that’s going through my mind. And Barbara Huson, whom I was interviewing, she said, “What’s wrong with trying to make more money?” And I went through my laundry list and she’s like, “Well, don’t you want power?” And I said, “No, aren’t you hearing what I’m saying? I don’t want power. That’s disgusting.” I didn’t say disgusting, but I felt it. And she’s like, “Let’s unpack this.”

And meanwhile, I’m a 30 something year old financial expert. I should know better, but it’s like the therapist has her own host of problems. And I was like, “No, I just think it’s not really what I’m after. I don’t want power.” She goes, “Because you’re thinking of a certain flavor of power that has been depicted in the media as undesirable for most especially women,” because it’s just not the power to conquer. Power is the guy in the tower who’s controlling people from above selling snake oil. Or it’s the conqueror, it’s the Putins of the world. And I said, “Yeah. I mean, well, that’s power.” And she goes, “No, Farnoosh. Power is also the power to uplift, the power to bring people together, the power to support, the power to heal.” I said, “Oh yeah, those other powers. Yeah, touche.” So I realized, okay, I do want that. And I think that that’s more my speed. And yet, I still had this fear that if I tried to achieve that, it would come at a cost.

And so like always, the fear, when it shows up, whether it’s o
f money or something else, it’s usually trying to ask you this question, which is, what are you trying to protect? What do you want to happen so badly? Or what do you want to not happen to happen so badly?

And for me, it was like I didn’t want to sacrifice my time. I didn’t want to feel like I was being stretched too thin. I didn’t want to feel like I was neglecting my family. Because ultimately, those things were more important to me. I’m not ashamed to say that.

And so I realized that my job now was to try to figure out a way to make more money, without having those other things happen. And do you know what’s the first thing I did? I just raised my damn prices.

Tori Dunlap:

There we go.

Farnoosh Torabi:

That took a minute. I was like, “I’m just going to start charging more.” And that doesn’t require lifting a finger. That doesn’t require losing time. It just requires deciding. And I challenge everybody to do that. That worked.

I also hired an assistant, which was a big move for me. It was a big investment, and not knowing if it would pay off. But in my mind I was like, “I’m going to hire this assistant to do the day-to-day stuff that is very important, that needs to get addressed. The emailing, the planning.” But then I suddenly for the first time in my career get to think big, and plan big, and network, and get out of the office. And within months, she had earned her salary back. And within a couple of years, I doubled my income.

Because I was just making this decision that first of all, I deserve to be financially powerful, and I can define that however I want. And that whatever I’m afraid of in terms of what this pursuit of trying to earn money is going to cost me, pay attention to that. Those things you care about.

But the solution is not to not go make more money. The healthy solution is to figure out how to do that, despite all of that. To say, “Okay, well I’m still going to go make the money. But how can I do it without making these other things suffer?”

Tori Dunlap:

That is so powerful. One of the missions, of course you know, of my work is, how do we encourage women to stop playing small? All of that was just super helpful. Everybody back it up eight minutes and listen to that again. That was so great.

Talk to me about when actually, our fears are helpful for us. I’m thinking red flags in relationships or at jobs, that gut impulse. We’ve talked about intuition and gut instincts a lot in the show. So we’re talking about all of these fears as unuseful things. When is fear actually useful?

Farnoosh Torabi:

So many times, red flags. I love me a red flag. Red flags have allowed me to spot who to fire, who to not be in a relationship with. I think also when you get that tingly feeling in a crowd, when someone asks you, “Where are you from?” That’s all about, in the fear of rejection. I think that’s a loaded question. And what that fear is asking you to do is read the room. Gosh, so many times… I mean, I even think with the fear of money when that’s showing up, it’s an opportunity to learn more about yourself and what you care about, as I talked about in my example.

But yeah, gosh. Red flags have saved me so many dollars, and time, and energy. I think people tell you exactly who they are, if you’re just willing to listen. And it’s not to say that when a red flag or a… What do they call it in the dating world? A yellow flag, a brown flag.

Tori Dunlap:

Honestly, I’m trying to remember now too.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Oh my gosh,

Tori Dunlap:

Why can’t I remember? Kristen’s going to come in. Thank you, Kristen. Beige flag.

Farnoosh Torabi:

I knew what it was. And then you said brown. And then in my head, all I could think of was brown flag. And I was like, “Wait, that’s not right.”

Tori Dunlap:

I knew it was a muted color, not like a hot pink.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Totally. So my point was people will just tell you who they are. I remember being on a first date, and the guy was sweet, funny. I knew he was a little out there for me, but I was in a phase where my one girlfriend was like, “You just need to go on some dates. You can’t just stay home. Even if you know it’s not going to work out, just go and have the experience.” And before the bread basket came, he’s like, “So, how much you weigh?”

Tori Dunlap:

What?

Farnoosh Torabi:

I was like, “I’m sorry, what? How much do I weigh?” I was like, “I am definitely paying for this dinner.”

Tori Dunlap:

You’re like, “I’m about to lose 200 pounds of your dead weight. So bye.” Wow.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Oh my God, I wish I had that one-liner. Instead, I think I just gasped and excused myself to go into the bathroom.

Tori Dunlap:

I have that one-liner Farnoosh, because enough men have called me fat on the internet.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Oh, Jesus.

Tori Dunlap:

That’s how I have it, which is a whole other conversation. That’s so fucked. I’m so sorry.

Farnoosh Torabi:

I don’t don’t know what even prompted it. I don’t even know how we got there. We had just literally sat down. And anyway, so no more on that guy. But I think we have a lot of experiences with, now you’re dating, and I was dating back then. And it’s just like I was so afraid of talking about myself on dates, which would’ve been construed as talking myself up. Because it’s not expected for a woman of 20 something to have financial stability and to pay for her own dinner. By the way, I pay a mortgage, and I have an awesome job.

And I remember dating advice I would get from my colleagues at work, men of course. They’d say, “Maybe you don’t tell them you own your own apartment on the first date.” I’m like, “Do you know that if I was a guide, I would put that in the email or in the text before I even get to the date. It would be on the profile.” It is a badge of honor when you are a man. It is something to not revere when you are a woman, apparently, on the prowl.

And I w
as just so tired of it, that ultimately, I got really okay with never getting in a long-term relationship. I was like, “You know what? If this is my pool of bachelor’s, then I like me. I know what I want. I want to have a family. I want to have a financially independent life. It will be okay.”

And you know what’s so funny? As soon as I sort of reconciled with that fear of potentially always being alone, I met my husband, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence. I think that when I decided that I wasn’t going to settle, and that I would be perfectly fine with never getting married, I walked into dates a totally different person. And by totally different person, I mean myself, and willing to go there and willing to share, because the fear of my exposing myself had just exhausted me. And I’m thankful for that exhaustion, because it honestly led me to a place of just wholeness, and being myself, and being like, “If he doesn’t like it, it’s okay.”

Tori Dunlap:

And the men that you would be attracted to are not the ones who want you to play small, right?

Farnoosh Torabi:

No.

Tori Dunlap:

That’s the question I get all the time is, “Don’t you think men are going to be turned off by how much money you have?” And I’m like, “Who the fuck do I care? If you don’t see me as a strong person and a strong woman, and you don’t want that, I’m not interested in you.” And yeah, it’s going to make dating harder 100%.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Or more special, because you’re not for everyone.

Tori Dunlap:

Right.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Thank you. I mean the thing is, when I was afraid of exposing my truth, my financial truth, my ambitions, I thought I was playing it right, but I was ultimately not getting any closer to the person that I needed to be with. I just thought I was weeding out everybody, but maybe there was a guy at some point who would’ve been okay with it. And I just didn’t assume he would be, because I was given a lot of bad advice.

Tori Dunlap:

Every aspect of showing up big in spaces, whether that’s dating, your career, just for yourself, it feels so uncomfortable because we’ve been told our entire lives placate others. Form to fit around the situation. Do everything you have to do to be accommodating, as opposed to do what feels right for you, set your own boundaries, show up in spaces, and play really big. And so of course that feels scary, and fearful, and uncomfortable because you’ve been told your entire life to not do it, actively told, even by people who care about you. I love my parents, but I live a very different life than they want me to lead. I live a very different life than they want, because they want to keep me safe. It sounds like yours as well. It’s so funny of these big risks, but then it’s also like, “Yeah, but you shouldn’t take the risks. Because I want to keep you safe.”

Farnoosh Torabi:

Right. They want to protect us. Yeah, the irony. It makes for great standup comedy material, let me tell you. I encourage you.

Tori Dunlap:

That’s actually really good for me to know. I was going to say, family trauma? Great.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Some standup comedy 101, one of the best teachers I had, he said, “Just make it ironic. Tell the irony.” And he’s actually the one that helped me come up with that joke, which was my parents moved here, traveled 6,000 miles, risked everything to take no chances. And he’s like, “Yeah, that’s funny because it’s not what you would expect.”

Tori Dunlap:

Did all of these things, and then yeah, it’s play-

Farnoosh Torabi:

And yet it’s every immigrant, right.

Tori Dunlap:

Right.

Farnoosh Torabi:

They’ve used up all their risk tickets. They have no more risk tickets left.

Tori Dunlap:

So if I’m listening to this episode, and I have something like a diagnosed anxiety disorder, or something where my sense of anxiety or fear is more out of my control, I’m probably listening to this and I’m like, “That’s nice. That’s fine.” But that doesn’t seem applicable to me.

Did any of your research cover how to distinguish these fears that do feel more mindset, versus maybe the ones that are actually diagnosable? Versus even to take it one step further, the things… Again, we’re talking about this society’s expectation of playing small.

I see this almost as three different things, which is one, your own bullshit that you can control. Two, the things that are still your own shit, but outside of your control. And then three, all of the systemic shit you can’t control at all.

Farnoosh Torabi:

I did not write this book for those of us necessarily who feel completely out of control, and have probably a diagnosable disorder. I think that it’s important for all of us, if we feel any degree of fear and it’s holding us back, there’s no breakthrough for us, that we do seek help. And this is not meant to be a solo journey by any stretch.

I think for those of us who feel the external factors, that everything feels existential, absolutely should work with a professional, and absolutely should know that they’re not alone, that you can get help.

Because a lot of what I lay out in the book, the work Tori, is having self-awareness. The work is knowing that you have resources that you can utilize. And by resources, I mean not just money, but your talent, your life experiences that are informing you. And your maturity, your agency, your network, your community. All of that are rich resources, which when we are afraid of anything, can be utilized.

But if you are somebody who can’t accept that yet, or doesn’t see that, or doesn’t trust that, then I think that before you read my book, you really want to work with a professional.

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah. I really appreciate you saying that. It is something that I like to couch all of my work with, which is, “This is super helpful. Also, I am not a therapist.” I’m not a therapist. You have to couple this work with deeper work typically as well.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Yeah…

Tori Dunlap:

What is something as we close out this episode, that somebody can do today? As they’re working through some of their fears or feeling some anxiety around making a career choice, maybe dating somebody, is there a practice that somebody can go through to start not even overcoming their fear, but start being more comfortable or aware of their fears?

Farnoosh Torabi:

Yes. Grab a piece of paper or grab your phone, and write down whatever the fear you’re feeling. And really, the first step is to get specific. Is it uncertainty? Is it rejection? Is it a combination? What is the outcome that you’re afraid is going to surface, or materialize, or come to haunt you? What is the thing that you’re afraid of?

But then I want you to reframe it to this. Rather than, “This is what I’m afraid of.” Write down, “This is actually what I’m trying to protect.” Sometimes the words really, really matter, Tori. Because when we use the word fear, our minds go to all these worst case scenarios. But when we say protect, which is ultimately what fear is, it’s a stimulant. It’s a natural, abundant resource flowing through our veins, that is there to protect us from danger.

But danger means different things, especially in an evolved world that we’re in. It used to mean literal danger of wooly mammoths during the Stone Age, but now it’s a string of bad dates, or a hostile relationship, or a hostile work environment.

Tori Dunlap:

Or getting canceled by the internet.

Farnoosh Torabi:

I mean, who isn’t terrified of that?

Tori Dunlap:

Truly, that the biggest fear I have other than death and eels right now, is just the internet feels so scary.

Farnoosh Torabi:

A quick sidebar on that. We were talking about, some friends the other day. It’s like, has anyone truly ever really been canceled?

Tori Dunlap:

Well, I have also had this conversation with friends. Even the people who deserve cancellation. I’m like, “Louis C.K. won a Grammy two years to come.”

Farnoosh Torabi:

Exactly, exactly. All these people that they had to disconnect from the internet for six months, they’re back. They’ve got shows, they’ve got brand deals, they’ve got millions of followers again. So it’s like we tend to forget very, very quickly. I just want to point that out.

But I think the first step is to identify specifically what the fear is. Rewrite that to identify what it is that you want to protect. And I guarantee you that that exercise alone will make you maybe love yourself a little bit more. Remember who you are, and feel more empowered to go do the thing anyway. But now you know what you want to protect. It feels more tangible to you than just this existential fear.

But no, I want to protect, for example, my savings account. I want to protect my relationship with my best friend. I want to protect my relationship with my mom. And so let that lead you to go and do the thing. But now, you’re being led in a way that is led by your heart, and your soul, and your ambitions, as opposed to what you thought it was being led by, which was fear, which can feel very stifling.

Tori Dunlap:

That’s incredibly helpful. I’ll be doing some journaling tonight, so I’ll let you know how that goes. Farnoosh, thank you for your time. Thank you for your work. Thank you for your friendship. Where can people find more about you?

Farnoosh Torabi:

Well, you can learn more about the book at ahealthystateofpanic.com. You can check me out on So Money, my thrice a week podcast. That’s a word that the New York Times used. So I don’t use that word a lot, but it’s a three times a week podcast.

Tori Dunlap:

Thrice weekly.

Farnoosh Torabi:

Thrice weekly. Sounds fancier than it is. And Instagram. I’m not the TikTok star that you are. I’ve tried-

Tori Dunlap:

I will say, it’s a beast of its own making. It’s crazy.

Farnoosh Torabi:

It’s hard. It’s hard. But it’s okay. I like Instagram a lot. I’m having fun there, so let’s hang out.

Tori Dunlap:

Cool. Thank you for being here. Thank you again to Farnoosh for joining us. You can check out her book, A Healthy State of Panic at your favorite bookstore. You can also subscribe to So Money, her award-winning money podcast, wherever you’re listening right now. Thank you for being here, Financial Feminist. I hope you have a great rest of your week, and we’ll talk to you soon.

Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer Tanisha Grant, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Kahlil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda Leffew, Masha Bachmetyeva, Kailyn Sprinkle, Sumaya Mulla-Carrillo, and Harvey Carlson. Research by Ariel Johnson, audio engineering by Alyssa Midcalf, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.