In the latest episode of the Financial Feminist podcast, Tori engages in a powerful conversation with voting expert Hannah Fried, Executive Director of All Voting is Local. This episode discusses the critical importance of voting, the deceptive barriers that many face when trying to exercise their right to vote, and the often-overlooked significance of local elections. Hannah brings a wealth of experience from her work on major political campaigns and voter protection efforts, shedding light on the current landscape of voter suppression and disinformation. If you’re passionate about democracy, voter rights, and the impact of civic engagement, this episode is a must-listen.
Tori and Hannah tackle pressing issues such as the hidden costs of voting, the role of election officials, and the disturbing rise in harassment against these vital public servants. They also explore practical ways individuals can support voter rights and ensure fair elections in their communities. This episode is not only informative but also a call to action for anyone who cares about the future of democratic participation in the United States. Tune in to learn more about how you can make a difference and help protect the integrity of our electoral system.
Key Insights:
- Voting is crucial for maintaining fair and free elections: It’s essential to protect democracy and understand voting rights, especially as election season approaches.Voting legitimizes our government, holds our officials accountable, protects our rights as citizens, prevents tyranny, and ensures inclusion and representation.
- Many voters face significant costs and barriers to voting: The expense of obtaining photo IDs, the time required to register and vote, and transportation costs. These obstacles can amount to over $100 for first-time voters.
- Widespread disinformation targets voter eligibility and the integrity of the election process: There are widespread efforts to spread disinformation about voter eligibility and the integrity of the election process. This disinformation often targets marginalized communities and undermines trust in elections.
- Local elections matter: While many tend to focus on the major (presidential) elections, local elections go overlooked. But these smaller elections can significantly impact daily life and community services. It’s important to vote in these elections and be informed about candidates who represent you at the local level.
- How to do your part: Each of us can do our part to support voting rights by registering to vote, encouraging others to vote, becoming poll workers, and supporting organizations that advocate for voter access and fair elections.
Notable quotes
“80% of election officials are women, which is a lot. And in the last few years, that has really changed. And I think that the attention paid to election officials, in some ways it’s great… But there has just been an unprecedented spike in threats, harassment, intimidation, I mean just really ugly stuff.”
“Election denial puts us in a free fall…and that ultimately, if you are about taking power, it turns out that in this country, just like everywhere else, there might not be a bottom to what people will do to get that power.”
“If you are a person who’s listening to this and watching the news and whatever, and you’re like, ‘Oh my God, I feel pretty fucked,’ let me tell you some of the ways you can channel that energy.”
Episode at-a-glance:
≫ 02:21 Hannah Fried’s background
≫ 02:37 The modern poll tax
≫ 03:13 The importance of voting
≫ 06:22 Hannah’s journey into public service
≫ 10:34 Voter suppression and disinformation
≫ 15:52 The hidden costs of voting
≫ 21:35 Voter ID laws and their impact
≫ 26:05 Corporate influence on voter engagement
≫ 27:26 The role of corporations in democracy
≫ 28:47 Politicians and voter suppression
≫ 30:26 The impact of election denial
≫ 33:08 The role and challenges of election officials
≫ 41:09 The importance of local elections
≫ 43:34 How to get involved in voting advocacy
Hannah’s Links:
Visit allvotingislocal.org to access all of the resources mentioned in this episode, and to make sure you’re registered to vote.
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Meet Hannah
Hannah Fried is All Voting is Local’s Executive Director. Prior to co-founding and leading the organization, she served as the National Director and Deputy General Counsel for Voter Protection on Hillary Clinton’s
presidential campaign. In 2012, Fried served as the Voter Protection Director for President Obama’s reelection effort in Florida, and from July 2009 to March 2012, she was the Deputy Director and Deputy Counsel for Voter Protection at the Democratic National Committee. Fried served with the Obama campaign’s voter protection team during the 2008 primaries and joined the advance staff for the general election in June 2008. Fried spent several years in federal government service, at the Department of
Justice and at the Environmental Protection Agency. She is a graduate of Williams College (class of 2004) and of Harvard Law School (class of 2008). She is admitted to practice law in New York.
Transcript:
Hannah Fried:
I think for people of certain kinds of privilege, some of this stuff could feel very far away, right? Just because it’s not happening to you doesn’t mean you shouldn’t care, right? But everybody picks and chooses, and I think we now have to reckon with some of the worst parts of our country, but it also gives us an opportunity to see the very best.
Tori Dunlap:
Hello team. Welcome Financial feminists. Welcome to the show. I’m thrilled to see you. Thank you for being here. Hope you’re having a great summer. I hope you’re listening to Sabrina Carpenter’s Espresso nonstop. We’ve probably already posted this on Instagram, but just in case we haven’t, every time you listen to Espresso, transfer some money into your high yield savings account. It’s a fun little savings challenge every time you hear it, maybe it’s $5, maybe it’s $10, maybe it’s less than that because it’s the song of the summer. But open up that high yield savings account. If you don’t know what that is, you can go to herfirst100k.com/tools. We’ll also link it down below. Open your free account, transfer some money. Look at that. You’ve saved a nice little nest egg using Sabrina Carpenter’s lovely vocals. Isn’t that sweet? I guess so.
Okay, today’s episode, we are talking about voting. Now, before you click off now, you probably clicked because you saw the title too, but before you stop listening, we know the election’s exhausting. I have been listening to election and political podcasts for two years, and I’m tired. I’m tired, and it feels like we’re just barely getting started. So we believe that voting is one piece of a larger puzzle of advocacy, but it’s an important one nonetheless. And then things like protecting democracy and understanding your rights to vote are crucial to help maintain fair and free elections. So we’re talking today with Hannah Fried, who is a non-partisan voting expert. So she is the executive director of All Voting is Local. And prior to co-founding and leading the organization, she served as the national director and deputy general counsel for Voter Protection on Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign. And in 2012, Fried served as the Voter Protection director for President Obama’s reelection effort in Florida.
And from July 2009 to March 2012, she was the deputy director and deputy counsel for voter protection at the Democratic National Committee. Fried served with the Obama Campaign’s protection team during the 2008 primaries and joined the advanced staff for the general election in June 2008. Fried spent several years in federal government service at the Department of Justice and the EPA, and she’s a graduate of Williams College and of Harvard Law School. We are talking about the poll tax, and I know you’re thinking, “Tori, the poll tax is illegal,” and you’re right, but it’s still around. So we’re talking about how much it can cost to vote and why those costs are keeping people from the polls, why certain laws like voter ID can be weaponized to exclude marginalized communities from accessing the right to vote, the importance of protecting free and fair elections, which of course we know, but why women specifically are at the forefront of election security and facing increased harassment, and how to advocate for fairer laws around elections.
This is one to listen to and then share with everybody in your life. Everybody needs to vote, everybody needs to register to vote, and everybody needs to also understand how your voting rights could be jeopardized, especially as we get closer to election season. And as always, we’ve talked about this many times in the show, elections are not just about the presidential election. I would argue that they’re way more about your individual state’s elections, your individual counties elections. So we talk more about the importance of voting, not just in these big sexy presidential elections, but also in your local elections. So without further ado, let’s go ahead and get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors.
Hannah Fried:
I am in DC.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, cool. Yeah, I was telling Secretary Buttigieg, but my first time I was in DC was last year, and it was the first time I’d ever been.
Hannah Fried:
Oh, you were?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, ever, first time.
Hannah Fried:
Where are you from originally?
Tori Dunlap:
I live in Seattle. I’m in LA right now for some speaking engagements, but yeah, based in Seattle from Tacoma, which is basically Seattle.
Hannah Fried:
Yeah, sure.
Tori Dunlap:
And then I hadn’t done, yeah, my Washington was Washington State and now Washington DC.
Hannah Fried:
Wow.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Did the whole Monument tour, stand in front of Abe Lincoln.
Hannah Fried:
Did you like it?
Tori Dunlap:
I thought it was great. Yeah, it was right during World Cup time. So the city was fun.
Hannah Fried:
Oh, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
There were people with Moroccan flags and just laying on the horn when they won. It was very funny.
Hannah Fried:
It’s such a diverse community within and outside the city that you get a lot of… It’s just really nice energy around stuff like that. It’s so fun.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I didn’t spend enough time, so I want to come back and see more of it.
Hannah Fried:
Come back and see us.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I was playing House of Cards, the theme song, in my pocket secretly and just walking around.
Hannah Fried:
Why that? Not American President?
Tori Dunlap:
Nope.
Hannah Fried:
I just rewatched it.
Tori Dunlap:
No, I know it doesn’t age well with Kevin Spacey, but something about House of Cards, the… I don’t know, I love it. I think it’s so fun.
Hannah Fried:
I don’t know. I’ll tell you, The American President has just this nice a theme song and it’s Aaron Sorkin. It warms the heart.
Tori Dunlap:
I was the same person who also ran around Boston with the National Treasure theme song in my pocket.
Hannah Fried:
I just watched National Treasure.
Tori Dunlap:
For the first time?
Hannah Fried:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, hold on, pause the interview. Did you see National Treasure 2: Book of Secrets?
Hannah Fried:
No. I’ve only seen the first one. So we had done a bunch of early American history stuff that weekend, it was Memorial Day weekend, and at the end of the day, we were like, “Oh, we should just keep it going.” And so we watched National Treasure. Oh boy, I loved it.
Tori Dunlap:
It is a great movie when you’re sick. It’s the perfect… And I mean that with the most respect.
Hannah Fried:
Yes, Oh, totally.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s the perfect, “Oh my gosh, I’m sick, but I need something entertaining, but that I don’t have to pay super attention to.” It’s beautiful.
Hannah Fried:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s great. And then National Treasure 2: Book of Secrets. He kidnaps the president. I’ll leave it there. All right. It’s great. It’s very fun. Okay. You have worked, speaking of presidential, on a lot of really incredible campaigns. What brought you into the world of public service and specifically elections?
Hannah Fried:
Yeah, so I was in law school in 2008 and I was finishing that year. I was about to graduate in June. And I say this a lot to people, it was such a great time to be working in politics, just the energy. I mean, it was so dynamic and exciting and I think I lucked out in terms of just my age and phase of life that I was in. And I wound up getting on the Obama campaign and I worked on campaigns for years, a long time until, I would say in some ways, I kind of aged out, if I’m being honest. The lifestyle is pretty rough.
Tori Dunlap:
We had Emily Tisch Sussman on the show and she said the same thing, where it was like-
Hannah Fried:
I think this is a comment-
Tori Dunlap:
… “I love my career in politics and also, I’m tired.” Yeah.
Hannah Fried:
I will say I’m still tired. We could talk about that too. So the work that I did on political campaigns was mostly voter protection, which is the part of campaigns operation that is focused on ensuring access to the ballot. And campaigns are fun and dynamic and ridiculous and silly environments in a lot of ways. Serious work, by the way, serious business of electing a candidate, but it’s just a young and dynamic environment. And also doing voter protection work was so meaningful because voter suppression is so much a part of the fiber of the country. And to do my part felt really like honorable work. But I also saw its limitations in the context of political campaigns in the sense that, I mean, whatever, campaigns come in and then they leave and they’re over. And over the years, colleagues of mine from doing voter protection work, we had sometimes said to each other, “Somebody should start an organization, somebody, not us, somebody else should start an organization to focus on the decisions that state and local election officials make about people’s ability to register and to vote and have that vote count.”
And it was not until 2017 that I sort of realized, okay, maybe I could be that person. And a friend of mine who I had worked with on campaigns for a long time came to me in the early part of 2017, and we were both out of jobs. We weren’t working at that point because I had worked on the Clinton campaign and was out of a job, and she had been in the Obama administration and was out of a job. And she said, “Hey, what do you think about starting that thing we always talked about?” And so we did. And that’s how I came to be involved with the work that I do now at All Voting is Local.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and tell me about that. How is it structured? Who does it serve? Tell me more.
Hannah Fried:
Yeah. So we are a multi-state voting rights organization. We’re about 50 staff. Two thirds of our staff is out in the eight states where we work. And our mission is exactly what I mentioned just a minute ago, which is to work with and when it’s necessary, put some pressure on state and local election officials to make the decisions that they do about your ability to register, your ability to vote, do that in a way that takes into account the communities they’re supposed to serve, does it in a way that expands access to voting instead of constricting it, and particularly with a focus on communities of color and other folks who have been cut off from the ballot for too long. And here what I’m talking about is black and Latino voters, Native American voters, voters with disabilities, young people, students. That’s the work that we do across our eight states. And it is really awesome and I will say real timely.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Well, the majority of what we wanted to spend our time with you today talking about is what you’re trying to do with your work and largely around voter suppression. So what is some of the most prevalent disinformation about voting right now?
Hannah Fried:
Yeah, so let me talk about a couple of trends. The first of these is attacks on voters’ eligibility, this idea that there are classes of people, categories of people who are voting who should not be. And this is not based on anything real, but I’ll point specifically to the example that’s been in media a lot in the last couple of weeks, which is around non-citizens voting, right? This idea that there are maybe lots of people who are not United States citizens voting in our elections. And that that is a problem. And that means that our elections are somehow not legitimate. And there is, by the way, zero evidence for this. Non-citizens cannot vote in federal elections. That is already the state of the world in this country. And still the beginning of May, members of Congress introduced a bill that would have prevented that again, I guess. And I think that we’re seeing that kind of disinformation, by the way, the result of that is that there is now momentum at the state level to further pass laws that are already on the books that prevent-
Tori Dunlap:
Are redundant.
Hannah Fried:
Right, exactly. Non-citizens from voting. And what is this really about? I mean, I think there’s a bunch of things that it’s about, but for us and for the purposes of our work, a big part about this is one, to chill voter participation and intimidate people and to raise suspicions. Because when you start talking about non-citizens voting, that is really a dog whistle, that is really about black and brown people, Asian Americans.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s a slippery slope to quote, “Illegal immigrant.” Yeah.
Hannah Fried:
There’s a whole sort of political broader policy dimension to this, absolutely. But it’s all about suggesting that our election systems are tainted and that we need stricter rules, that maybe we shouldn’t accept the results. And the first part of that is something we’ve seen a long time. Using the mechanisms of how we run our elections to bring some people in and to keep some people out, I mean, we’ve had that since the country was founded, but there is now this extra dimension of let’s also just cast out on the whole thing.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and I think that the seeds of suspicion then allow the disinformation to continue to spread. Because if you catch a whiff that maybe this isn’t trustworthy, it’s more likely that you’re going to see… Or it’s kind of like, what is it? I think they call it the red car theory. You see the red car and you’re like, “Every car is red.” And then you just see every red car. It’s kind of like, okay, if you hear something about this and it seems like it might be true, then anything that you’re seeing is almost like evidence to back up that point. So it almost convinces you that yes, elections can’t be trusted.
Hannah Fried:
That’s right. And I think that that then becomes the justification for policies that we don’t need and that actually then serve to cut people off from the process, from accessing their right to vote.
Tori Dunlap:
And it’s to your point, if we already have those laws, okay, pass another, I guess, why don’t you spend your time doing something else that isn’t redundant? It’s already spelled out. We’ve already got that. You have a lot of other things you can be doing. Let’s go spend time there.
Hannah Fried:
And it’s like with everything, that if you’re spending your time on one thing, you are not spending your time on other things. And in this case, the other thing, if you actually care about the security of our elections, trust in our elections, good election administration, we can talk about some other things you might be wanting to spend your time on. But that’s not actually the point, right? That’s not the point at all. We’ve moved pretty far in a lot of our conversations around voting, whether it’s non-citizen voting or questioning how votes get counted or tallied or raising distrust in election officials sort of broadly. We’ve moved pretty far from any kind of facts. These are not good faith arguments, and I think we are not well served in treating them as good faith arguments.
The idea of trying to tackle any of this stuff on its merits, I mean, if you are actually concerned about election security, let me tell you about some of the steps that state and local election officials take every day to ensure that the voter registration lists reflect who should actually be voting in the state, and that the systems of election administration are secure and functioning, whether it’s the testing they do of their voting equipment or the training they offer their poll workers, all of that contributes to a safe and secure election, which by the way is of course what we all want. But with everything, it’s about striking a balance. And it’s incredibly important that when we’re striking that balance, that we’re making those decisions based on what’s actually a problem and what’s a made up dog whistle.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Well, and there used to be a literal poll tax that was ruled unconstitutional, but your organization has found that even if it’s not blatant, there’s still a poll tax that exists for many groups. So can you dive into some of the research that your team found around that?
Hannah Fried:
Yeah, thanks for that. So our data and research team, which is led by Nicholas Martinez, embarked on a research project last year to figure out, can we quantify a little bit better the harm that voters face when voter suppression laws pass? Just zoom out for a minute. There’s a lot of conversation about how voter suppression laws changes to the way that voting work, that constrict access to the ballot, whether it’s voter ID or lack of funding for elections, or cuts to days and hours of voting. There’s this idea sometimes that you hear about it around that none of this actually matters and people will point to turnout statistics. I mean, there was a lot of this in Georgia after a very restrictive sweeping bill passed there in advance of the 2022 elections.
And there was a lot of like, “Well, turnout was high,” but it turned out actually that the disparity in turnout between black and white voters had only grown since the law was passed. So you got to poke these numbers a little bit. It’s all well and good to look at the turnout numbers at the high level, you got to dig in a little bit. And that’s exactly what our team did here, was to think about, “Okay, how can we dig in a little bit more and really quantify, put some numbers on what it means for voters?” And what they found was I think really extraordinary. And that is that it costs the first time voter about $105 to register and vote for the first time, $105, which whatever this stuff, how you think about money depends on how much money you have, but $105 is a lot of money for a lot of people. That’s about a week’s worth of groceries.
Tori Dunlap:
What is the money? What is the $105? Is that your driver’s license to get an ID? What is it?
Hannah Fried:
Yeah, so it looks at a couple of things. You mentioned one of them exactly, the cost of getting a photo ID in the states that require it, the time it takes to register, the time it takes to vote, the time it takes to get that paperwork. And what we did there was we looked at federal labor and wage statistics to be able to quantify that time. How do we value that time? And so we looked at that, but it also didn’t look at everything. That doesn’t include gas to get to your voting location. I think our study also found that the majority, I think, of voters live more than three miles from their polling location. So now we’re talking about public transit, we’re talking about car, gas. So there’s a cost of postage. It didn’t account for that, so it’s $105 plus plus plus.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Hannah Fried:
And I was so struck when I heard that number because, and I referenced this a minute ago, that’s a week’s worth of heating. That’s a week’s worth of groceries and people should not have to choose. And I think it just puts a really fine point on what I think we see anecdotally a lot. You got to wait two hours to vote at your polling location, you might not be able to spend that two hours, but to really be able to say, wow, $105, that is a choice. That’s a choice folks are going to have to make.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, it sounds like minimum $105.
Hannah Fried:
That’s right.
Tori Dunlap:
So it’s going to be at least. Yeah, and I think it’s just, I’m not going to let, even as someone… I live in Washington state where I can vote by mail. It’s inconvenient. I don’t even have to stand in line. And I’m like, “Okay, did I register properly?” Okay. And then I discovered that my ballots weren’t even getting delivered to me because they had my wrong address. And so there were multiple elections I didn’t vote in, and I didn’t realize it until the day before. And so it’s just like there’s so many barriers to making this the easiest thing somebody can do.
Hannah Fried:
And to a degree, the inconvenience is the point.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Hannah Fried:
You referred to the poll tax, and I think that’s a phrase that makes folks uncomfortable now, the idea that we would still have that when, of course, it has been illegal for now decades, but I think the point I would really make here is that this kind of discrimination around voting is subtle, and it has had to be subtle. And this is a subtle cost. These are a subtle series of costs, they come over time. For many voters, for many folks listening to this, these are sunk costs. You already have paid for the ID, you’ve already registered to vote. And so they’re over time and they’re aggregated. And so it’s easy not to have a full picture. I am so appreciative of the work our team did to really identify that.
And I’ll say too, thinking about the shift from overt laws prohibiting participation to more subtle forms of discrimination in voting from the Jim Crow era, I think one of the things that is really alarming to me now having done this work for 15 years is, whatever, this is probably an overused phrase, but the quiet part being said out loud is something we’re seeing more and more, there’s just increasing comfort in the states where we work from public officials to just talk about how the inconvenience and more, not just inconvenience, I mean, sometimes it’s inconvenience and sometimes it’s quite a bit more than that, that there is an intention behind that.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, let’s talk about ID because voter ID laws get a lot of, well, they should always get more press, but I feel like I’m hearing about them a lot, and it gets brought up as like, “It’s just having a photo ID, that doesn’t cost anything.” But of course, let’s talk about why voter ID laws can be so harmful, and are there ways that we can still verify our identity and protect the electoral process without a voter ID law?
Hannah Fried:
Yeah, voter ID has made a comeback. It’s made a comeback both in the sense that I think you’re referring to, which is that people are talking about it again in a way I haven’t seen in a while. And I think it’s great actually because I think accepting voter ID as a… When I say voter ID, I should actually really be more precise. It’s really photo ID that I want to talk about because there are lots of forms of ID that people use when they register to vote. And this I think speaks to the point that you’re making about the built-in security protections we have.
There are so many, right? I mean, if you think about the process of registering all the information that you provide, that you sign an application, when you go in to vote, you state your name, often, you’re asked for some additional information, maybe they ask you for your address so they give you the right ballot, or they ask to see a piece of paper, utility bill, bank statement, whatever. There’s all of these checks along the way. So it’s absolutely not the case that it’s like a free-for-all out there that anybody can just show up at a polling place and be like, “I’m Hannah Fried.” They can’t. I’m Hannah Fried and I get to vote as Hannah Fried. And that I think is really the problem with photo ID, is that it’s not that…
I think if you talk to most voting rights advocates, I think most of us would say, yeah, I don’t have a problem with there being security measures in our system of voting, but it is photo ID especially ones like we’ve seen in Ohio, which just passed so recently, and it’s tipped so far. In Ohio as of last year, there are only four acceptable types of ID. You can’t use a student ID anymore. Why? What is the point of this? If the idea is to ensure that a person who’s who they say they are, why not be expansive? I think that it’s a solution in search of a problem, there is no problem. And there are so many other ways to solve for it that are just common sense.
Tori Dunlap:
One of the things I learned, I wish I would’ve learned this sooner, it was probably a year or two ago, was that your ballot can often get thrown out if your signature does not match the signature on your ID. And we’ve probably said it multiple times on this show, but I feel like I have to say it again, that’s just one of those things that I didn’t know. No one sat me down and was like, “Hey, make sure that when you sign, it looks the exact same as your driver’s license.” Because my full legal name is Victoria. I have a Victoria signature, and then I have a Tori Dunlap signature, and the one on my driver’s license is my full flowery and a full name. But I often will just sign Tori Dunlap. And so even knowing that, oh, my ballot can get thrown out if they can’t verify the signature, that blew my mind.
Hannah Fried:
That is a problem. And it’s a particular problem for older voters because their signature changes over time. And there’s interesting data out of Florida, for example, on this, it looks at how this operates differently across groups. People for a variety of reasons, folks with disabilities, I mentioned older folks too. People’s signatures do change. And that’s why, again here, it’s not that there’s anything inherently wrong with using these data points, someone’s signature, as a way of being certain that a person is who they say they are. The issue is that we should air on the side of accepting that a voter is who they say they are. Because for all the reasons that you say, there can be so many good reasons that your signature would change. And the idea that it gets thrown out just because it doesn’t match perfectly does seem pretty crazy, I think, for most people. So I think with all this stuff, let’s be thoughtful, let’s be common sense, and let’s do what works for real people’s lives.
Tori Dunlap:
So we have our fun little stat that between 2015 and 2021, so six years, corporations have contributed $50 million to state lawmakers supporting voter suppression bills. So corporations are giving a large amount of money to politicians known for backing voter suppression laws. How does corporate influence in politics affect voter engagement?
Hannah Fried:
Yeah, it’s such a nice question. So a couple of thoughts about this. I’ll start with something that’s positive. I think in 2020, something-
Tori Dunlap:
Great.
Hannah Fried:
I’m an internal optimist, but let me start there, which is that in 2020, major corporations across the country I think saw the moment that we were in, saw the sort of moral call to do more and do better. And so they did things like give their staff time off to vote, give their staff time off to be poll workers. You remember in COVID, there were real concerns about poll worker shortages who are just essential people to run our polling locations. And it was a momentous year, and I think people stepped up in all kinds of ways. I mean, whatever, like Taylor Swift that year, I think stepped away from her stance to date and engaged in “Get out to vote” work.
She’s always telling people to register. I think that that’s whatever, we all heard that call, but your statistic is what it is. And I think that what is so disappointing about that is not only do corporations, especially big ones, have the kind of money that I think we’re talking about here, they have this big platform, and so they should use it for good, and by good, I mean spreading good information to voters, helping people vote. But it’s also that it’s not good for their bottom line for this country to be anything but a democracy. And corporations know that, right? There have been studies of CEOs that have found that the overwhelming majority, I mean pushing 100%, know that, because it’s true, that countries that are democratic, small D here, have a higher GDP, right?
And they also worry that being in an undemocratic, nondemocratic state has sort of a diminishing effect on their productivity, on their ability to offer services. It’s not good for the bottom line for us to not be a democratic nation, again, small D. So I think shame on these folks for donating to something that makes it harder for people to vote. But also what are they doing here as business people? This is counter to their own interests at a minimum.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and a kind of related question to that, we know that the vast majority of Americans do not believe in voter suppression. They don’t believe that.
Hannah Fried:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
This is my existential, even though I have my own answer to this, why are politicians so fucking hell-bent on enacting laws preventing people from voting? What do they have to gain? And even we were talking about before, some of these laws already exist, so why are we doubling down? Why?
Hannah Fried:
So you’re right. I mean, it is out of step with the overwhelming majority of Americans to make it harder to vote. So our research about the cost of these voter suppression laws also found that 83% of people that we were pulling support expansive access to the ballot and believe that voting is a fundamental right. And that held true. And I think this part’s really important. It held true across party affiliation, Democrats, Republicans, and independents. There was a little bit of variation, but slight. I have sort of a couple of thoughts about this. I think one is that cutting people off from the ballot is about power and taking power from people, and it’s about consolidating it in a minority in a few people who hold power. If you can’t get people’s votes through your policies, then you cut them off from the ballot. And if you aren’t successful in cutting them off from the ballot, then, and this is what we’re seeing a lot of now, then you say there’s something wrong with our elections and these ballots should get thrown out.
And I have spent a lot of time in the lead up to 2020 and since really grappling with these questions about, well, what became known as the Big Lie, but this idea that our 2020 election was not valid and in the lead up to 2020 that there were these sort of rumors, this disinformation mill, that there was something fundamentally wrong and broken and dirty about our elections and they couldn’t be trusted. And I think it took me a long time, it took me until really after 2020 and after January 6th to understand what was going on. Because with voter suppression, there’s something sort of linear about it in the sense that you end Sunday early voting with the intention of depressing turnout in communities that use it, black communities, for example, sold to the polls on Sundays, communities go and vote together, and black turnout goes down, that’s cut Sundays, black turnout goes down, and there’s something linear to that. It’s hideous.
But there’s some logic there. Election denial, denying the legitimacy of the election seems so chaotic. What is it set out to achieve? And I think maybe there’s some thought there that spreading this disinformation about the legitimacy of our elections might benefit some political actors and not others maybe. But I think what I came to understand after January 6th was that election denial puts us in a free fall. And that ultimately, if you are about taking power, it turns out that in this country, just like everywhere else, there might not be a bottom to what people will do to get that power. And I think that was a really a profound moment for me to understand that that was the end game. I think it was life-changing. I mean, I think it was life-changing for a lot of people, and it was life-changing for me.
Tori Dunlap:
Well yeah, if you say the entire system isn’t legitimate and you believe the person or people who are saying that, then okay, anything that happens, you can say, “Well see, I told you it’s not legitimate.”
Hannah Fried:
That’s right.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Hannah Fried:
So fun. Can I come back? Do you want me to come back on your show?
Tori Dunlap:
No. This is half the conversations we have on the show and they’re very important. And that’s my reaction every time is like a ghost leaves my body where I’m just like, “Okay. Got to love it.”
Hannah Fried:
I will say we’ve talked about a lot of serious and somber stuff because this is a serious and somber moment.
Tori Dunlap:
And I’ve got more questions for you too.
Hannah Fried:
Oh god. All right, well, I was going to pivot to something nice, but if you want to keep us in this dark place, go ahead.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, I was going to talk about election officials.
Hannah Fried:
Yeah, let’s talk about election officials. There’s a lot of great stuff to say there. Let’s talk about that.
Tori Dunlap:
So define it for me and what way do they serve elections? Who are election officials?
Hannah Fried:
I will say I really miss being, I joke with my team sometimes I want to go out and be a state director because I love being out in the field because you get to interact with so many people. And some of those people are election officials. So an election official is the person in your community who is responsible for the nuts and bolts of running elections there. So they have an office and they have a staff. And sometimes, it’s really big if you live in New York City or you live in Maricopa County, Arizona. Sometimes, it’s a small office. There are even election officials who, their offices or their homes, because they run these tiny jurisdictions.
But they do everything from help people to register, to process registration applications, to training poll workers, to setting up polling locations, deciding where they’re going to be. That is the business of running elections. When you go and you get that absentee ballot mail to you or you go to your polling location, early vote or on election day, there is a real human being, a bunch of human beings who are behind that operation. And that’s what an election official is.
Tori Dunlap:
I was Googling election official. I was curious if I could become one.
Hannah Fried:
When I said tracked?
Tori Dunlap:
No, it was great. No, it’s more, I’m like, how does one become… Well, my next question is the not so fun one, which is your team has seen a huge rise in harassment of election officials. What kind of harassment are they facing and can you explain the tie in with women specifically, women election officials?
Hannah Fried:
Yeah. Yeah. So about 80% of election officials are women, which is a lot. That’s a lot of women serving in that role. And I think in a lot of ways historically, it’s been a pretty under the radar job. Some election officials are elected, some are civil servants, but it has generally been a job that people did fairly quietly. And in the last few years, that has really changed. And I think that the attention paid to election officials, I mean in some ways it’s great. I mean communities engaging, knowing they’re there, engaging with them, there can be benefit in that. We do that too. I mean that’s part of our advocacy, is just getting to know them, working with them.
But there has just, I think an unprecedented spike in threats, harassment, intimidation, I mean just really ugly stuff. Some of it very much misogynistic because of the statistic I mentioned before. And it’s all part of this heightened environment around voting and election administration that we’ve been talking about. And I think it has always been a job for which people deserve to be greatly appreciated. It is even more the case now. I think the statistic is something around four in 10 election officials have reported threats and harassment. That’s an alarmingly high number. And we’re seeing the effects of that, which is that election officials are leaving their jobs.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, you don’t want to do your job. Yeah.
Hannah Fried:
I mean, would you?
Tori Dunlap:
No. On Google, backspace, “How do I become a…” Backspace, backspace, backspace.
Hannah Fried:
Nevermind.
Tori Dunlap:
Nevermind.
Hannah Fried:
But I do think that that is an alarming statistic.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s very needed.
Hannah Fried:
But it’s extremely needed. It is just an incredibly valuable job. And I think there are already protections for election workers in state and local law. That’s something that we advocate for. We’re going to continue to see that grow. And I think that this is not going to be this way forever is my assessment of it. We are in a moment, but we are in a… Let’s keep those fingers crossed. But we are in that moment now, and we have to acknowledge that, and I think that it is such an important job. It’s crushing, to be honest. It’s really crushing to see the shift that has resulted in this.
Tori Dunlap:
I can imagine there’s some listeners who maybe aren’t as tapped into politics and the election who are going, “Why would these election officials be harassed? What does this harassment look like?” So what are they getting harassed about?
Hannah Fried:
Yeah, so this ties to some of what we’ve been talking about, about sort of disinformation around election administration and the idea that our system is broken, the voter registration lists are full of people who shouldn’t be on them, that-
Tori Dunlap:
People are double counting votes or votes are not getting counted.
Hannah Fried:
“Vote counting is suspicious and bad, that there’s something wrong with the technology we use.” I mean, it’s all of this stuff. And then I think this sort of natural next extension of that is like, “Oh, well, who are the people who are doing that? Oh, it’s election officials. Oh, well, okay, you’ve done something wrong and bad.” And so that’s what it comes down to and it ties back to that major disinformation moment that we’re in.
Tori Dunlap:
So when we go vote, if we see harassment, what should we do?
Hannah Fried:
Yes. So there’s a couple of things you can do. The first thing I want to say about it is that it’s pretty unlikely that you’re going to witness that. Although that statistic is high, the four in 10 that I mentioned, overwhelmingly, when voters go to vote, they will have a fine experience doing so. I say this is a person who’s whole life is built around fixing these problems. And still, I recognize that most people are going to have a totally fine experience going to vote.
Tori Dunlap:
And are kind and respectful.
Hannah Fried:
Totally. You’ll go in, you’ll vote, say thank you, and you’ll leave. Right?
Tori Dunlap:
You get your sticker maybe. Do they still do stickers?
Hannah Fried:
You get that I voted sticker. That’s right. Your kids get one too if people are feeling especially jolly, right?
Tori Dunlap:
That’s great.
Hannah Fried:
Love it too. Love it too. Nobody likes it more than my kids. So there’s that. And I should say too that that’s also the case for most poll workers who are people who serve for a day or two help set up a polling location. Those are the people you interact with when you go vote. There are the people who give you that I voted sticker. And then there’s election workers too. And as we’ve talked about, these threats are real and they are prevalent. And still, you are not super likely when you go to vote to see this happen. But let’s talk about what you can do, right? Number one is the first thing I would do is… And I’ve volunteered in a lot of polling locations, so I know the drill, right? This comes from experience. There’s always a person in charge of a polling location.
There’s an election official who’s more senior who knows what’s up. And the first thing to do if you see something like that, whether it’s voter intimidation or intimidation of an election worker in the polling place, is go find that person and say, “Hey, I want you to know this thing is happening. Can you help de-escalate it?” And they have de-escalation protocols. They know when to bring in somebody to help de-escalate further if it’s sort of beyond what they feel like they can handle. There are folks there who know how to deal with exactly that. And certainly in this moment that we’re in where these threats are heightened, that kind of training has, I know, only gotten better and more robust.
The second thing is that there is a US Department of Justice hotline that you can call, and I’ll provide that number here. And this, you can use this as a voter, you can use this based on your own experience, if you’re having a problem voting or if there’s an issue like this you need to report. And that’s +1(800) 253-3931. So that’s an option for you too. So no one should feel going to a polling location that there’s going to be a situation that is going to be so scary that they can’t vote. There’s protections in place. That’s always been part of voting, and it’s certainly the case now.
Tori Dunlap:
We had Amanda Litman on the show. I don’t know if you know. Yeah, she’s fantastic.
Hannah Fried:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
And one of the things we talked about that I knew was important, but she just fully… I was fully on board after that, there’s so much, let’s call it hoopla. There’s so much hoopla around the presidential election. I get it right, it’s the sexiest election. But what ends up happening then is that all of the local elections that do have more of a… They make more of a difference in your everyday life, you just don’t think about those as much. And the example she brought up is some counties electing coroners and then the coroners decide cause of death. And who would’ve thought of that? And I didn’t know that before I talked to her. And so talk to me maybe about, of course, the importance of voting, but the importance of voting and the elections that aren’t going to get the press. And maybe you haven’t heard of any of the candidates, but actually make a difference in your day-to-day life.
Hannah Fried:
Totally. I mean, I am a voter. I live here in Washington DC and as you may know, we do not have a lot of representation in Congress. And so our local elections is what we’re all about. If you care as I do about city services, schools-
Tori Dunlap:
Your school board.
Hannah Fried:
… trash collection, I mean all of these essential services that impact exactly the day-to-day of our lives, that’s where the action is. And I’ll note too that election officials, and I mentioned this previously a little bit, some are elected and so getting involved, we can also talk about how a person can become an election official, but knowing who your election official is, whether it’s electing Board of Elections members or county supervisor of elections, as is the case in some places, they use different names, but it’s all basically the same thing, that’s the person who-
Tori Dunlap:
Sheriffs are elected positions.
Hannah Fried:
Sheriffs can also be elected.
Tori Dunlap:
At least in our community.
Hannah Fried:
These are positions that impact your day-to-day life. And in the case of the stuff that I do, these are the people who impact your ability to vote. So get involved in voting for them.
Tori Dunlap:
What can we do in our local communities to ensure that constituents don’t have to face barriers in registering to vote, can vote and maybe you even want to run, how do you think about that?
Hannah Fried:
Yeah, so we’ve talked a lot about the hardship of the last few years, but one of the things that is an opportunity that comes from this hardship is that we cannot ignore the threats to voting, the threats to our democratic norms. They’re in our own backyards. And that is so hard, but also so amazing. I think for a long time, a very long time, I think for people of certain kinds of privilege, some of this stuff could feel very far away. Just because it’s not happening to you doesn’t mean you shouldn’t care, but everybody picks and chooses. And I think we now have to reckon with some of the worst parts of our country, but it gives us an opportunity to see the very best. And that is, I think, for me, very motivating. And I think if you are a person who’s listening to this and watching the news and whatever, and you’re like, “Oh my God, I feel pretty fucked.”
Tori Dunlap:
I was just going to say everything’s fucked. Everything’s bad, everything’s fucked.
Hannah Fried:
Yeah. Let me tell you some of the ways you can channel that energy.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, love it.
Hannah Fried:
So one, you got to register and vote and bring your friends, bring your mom, bring your aunt, bring your uncle, bring your people. Everybody’s got to register and vote.
Tori Dunlap:
Other things that we can do to support voting and voter rights.
Hannah Fried:
Yeah. Well, okay, so that’s the thing, right? Let’s talk about that. So registering and voting, sorry about that, very important. Two is you should be a poll worker, right? You can actually go to our website allvotingislocal.org/getinvolved and that will list out lots of options for how you can engage. We have information about how to register and vote. We have information about how to get involved in the ways that we’re talking about, whether it’s being a poll worker, or how to get involved in organizations in your community that are doing the advocacy work that we’re talking about here. You want to get plugged in, whether it’s with the NAACP or the League of Women Voters or Common Cause. There are so many great organizations. If you’re like, “God, I listened to this woman talk about this thing and I feel now really like I want to get involved in it. How do I do that?” Allvotingislocal.org/getinvolved. That’s how you do that.
Also, the other thing my team would be real mad at me if I didn’t do was plug. You can give with your money, you can give with your time and you can give with your money. Tons of great orgs. We are also a great org, but there are tons of great orgs. And so I think, look, not everything is for everybody. Not everybody is like, “Being a poll worker, maybe not for me.” That’s great. Go register and vote. Registering and voting, give to an organization that works on voter access issues. So there’s lots of ways, so many ways that people can get involved, and there is a moral call to do it. I think I cannot emphasize that enough.
Tori Dunlap:
Or call and make sure other people are registered to vote. “Okay, cool. You can’t volunteer as a pollster. Make sure your mom’s registered. Make sure your dad’s registered. Make sure your grandma.” I mean, there’s organizations, I don’t know if you all do it at yours, but literally that you have a list of people and you call them and just go, “Hey, are you registered to vote?”
Hannah Fried:
There’s tons of great organizations that are doing non-partisan, get out to vote work. Some of the ones that I mentioned do exactly that. And so check out our website for all those kinds of resources. There is something for everyone in this world and this moment demands it.
Tori Dunlap:
Hannah, thank you for your work. Where can people find you? Where can people learn more about everything you’re doing?
Hannah Fried:
You can follow us on socials @Voting is Local and All Voting is Local. And our website is allvotingislocal.org.
Tori Dunlap:
Amazing. Thank you. Thank you for your work.
Hannah Fried:
Thank you. This was really fun. Thank you.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you to Hannah for joining us. You can go to Allvotingislocal.org to access all of the resources she mentioned, as well as to make sure you’re registered to vote. As always, Financial Feminists, we appreciate you being here and appreciate you holding space for these sometimes really tough topics, but that directly impact our personal finances, our rights, and all of that good stuff. So please register to vote. Please encourage your friends and family to register to vote. Your voice does matter, even if it feels like we live in the capitalist hellscape that we do live in. But voting is one of the best ways that we can assert our voices and our power in our society and in our system. So thanks for being here. We’ll talk to you soon. Bye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant, research by Sarah Sciortino, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf, marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First $100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Kurronen, Darrell Ann Ingman, and Meghan Walker. Promotional Graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
