If you are neurodivergent, and especially if it took you a while to receive a diagnosis, you know what it’s like to feel different. Tack on being a woman, and you’ve got a recipe for frustration and even depression.
Our guest, Paige Layle, struggled through her childhood and early teens –– feeling frustrated by everything from the feel of her clothing to how to behave socially around her peers. Her family innocently played off this frustration as something everyone goes through. It wasn’t until she was formally diagnosed with Autism in her late teens that she finally understood why her struggles felt so different from those around her.
Paige joins Tori to discuss the nuances and stigma around being an autistic woman –– detailing her journey to diagnosis, misconceptions about autism, the unique ways autistic brains function, and the importance of creating neurodiverse-friendly environments. Paige also touches on her transition to entrepreneurship, handling finances, and the impact of her advocacy on others.
Key takeaways:
- Making Connections. Paige shared that one of the reasons why autistic brains work differently than someone who is neurotypical is because they are making connections in a whole different way. With more neurons, her brain has more “highways,” as she likes to illustrate, which she finds both helpful and challenging depending on the situation.
- Inclusive spaces. Paige shared that the biggest frustration she has when talking about autism is the stigma around what people think someone with autism looks and behaves like. Like any form of neurodivergence, there is no one way to look, speak, think, or act with Autism.
Want to learn more about creating inclusive spaces for autistic people? Download Paige’s free e-book, 60 Ways to Accommodate Autistic People.
Notable quotes
“I just turned 15, and I was sat down in front of a psychiatrist for the first time in my whole life, and talked for like 3 hours with him on a Zoom call pretty much. And after the 3 hours of like every single question you could think of, he’s like, ‘Yeah man. You’re autistic. No one’s told you this? That’s why you’re struggling with everything.’
I just slumped back and saw my world unraveling in front of me like it was nothing. So many people knew this about themselves already. He had all this information that I was just learning on that day.”
—
“No one had ever recommended to my parents (or me) before that there was something going on with me. My book is called, But Everyone Feels This Way, ‘cause that’s what my parents told me.
‘This is normal. You’re just like everyone else. Everyone feels this stressed and sad all the time. That’s normal.’ What? No it’s not. If it is, it’s not okay.
So, then finally someone saying, you’re autistic, I could breathe and go, Oh my gosh, I’m not crazy. I’m not lying. I’m not making it up.”
—
“There are definitely spaces now that are helpful and accommodating and understanding and run their business from a place of being neurodiversity affirming. But there are definitely a lot of places that do not understand, and that won’t understand. And I’ve kind of just had to make the switch of the mindset to be like, ‘I need to I need to focus on my clients, my customers, my people that actually are finding what I say important.’”
Episode at-a-glance:
01:18 Paige’s Diagnosis Journey
04:35 Gender Dynamics in Autism Diagnosis
08:39 Coping Mechanisms and OCD
20:34 Understanding Autistic Brain Connectivity
27:40 Social Media and Masking
28:47 Navigating Neurodiversity in Business
29:13 Focusing on Supportive Communities
31:56 Personal Finance and Business with Autism
38:28 Harmful Stereotypes
50:26 Paige’s Impact and Advocacy Work
Paige’s Links:
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Meet Paige
Paige Layle is an advocate and influencer for a better understanding of autism on social media. Diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder at the age of 15, Paige began advocating for autism in response to witnessing the common misconceptions about autism. Now in her twenties, Paige is an autism acceptance activist on YouTube and TikTok. Her new book, But Everyone Feels This Way: How An Autism Diagnosis Saved My Life, a personal memoir living with autism, became an instant Amazon best-seller.
Transcript:
Paige Layle:
And when you’re told that, “This is how everyone else is feeling,” I’m just looking around at everyone like, “Do you got this in the back of your head?” Like, “Does your head work like mine, but you’re just hiding it?” Like, “There’s stuff that you are thinking, but you just don’t say it, and I’m the only person that is saying this stuff?”
Tori Dunlap:
Hi, Financial Feminist. I am recording this right as I’m leaving for Europe, and I am having a little bit of senioritis. I love my company, I love my work, and I’m also like Italian, summer, pasta, it’s calling my name. What’s not calling my name is the fucking heat. I am looking at these heat advisory warnings in Florence and the Amalfi Coast and I’m like… I have never been to Europe in the summer, and it’s almost like I’ve done that on purpose, because I have heard absolute horror stories about how many people there are, and about how hot it is, and I don’t do well in heat because I’m a Seattle girly. If it gets to be higher than 85, I’m like, “It’s too hot, it’s too hot.” My perfect temperature is like a 78 degrees. That’s perfect, 78 with a breeze. Mamma mia, absolute perfection.
If you don’t follow us on Instagram already, @herfirst100k. I also have a personal account, @torikdunlap. I’m going to be sharing some European travels, but also not a ton, because this is my one opportunity to not be on social media as much, but would love to see you over there if you’re interested in following our Italian and London escapades. Our guest today is Paige Layle, who is an incredible advocate and influencer for a better understanding of autism and social media. Diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder at the age of 15, Paige began advocating for autism in response to witnessing the common misconceptions about it. Now in her 20s, Paige is an autism acceptance activist on YouTube and TikTok. Her new book. But Everyone Feels This Way: How an Autism Diagnosis Saved My Life, which is a personal memoir about living with autism, became an instant Amazon bestseller.
This was a fascinating episode, and so important if you have ever struggled trying to figure out your own brain, if you know someone with an autism diagnosis, and you do, statistically you do, I know many. We got into the frustration Paige went through before her autism diagnosis, how she’s learned to manage money, including buying her first home in her early 20s, while navigating autism, her incredibly helpful illustrations for how her brain works and how non-neurodivergent brains can help support those, and the stigma she still faces as a woman with autism. This was incredibly important episode, so without further ado, let’s go ahead and get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. I want to say it’s the same flowers, and then I also-
Paige Layle:
You had flowers, too?
Tori Dunlap:
… had butterflies. I had butterflies that my mom… She bought a stamp of Joann’s or whatever, and then she stamped it, and then painted little like-
Paige Layle:
No way, your mom is cool.
Tori Dunlap:
… movement thing. She’s very crafty. My mom is very crafty. I do not have the patience for it.
Paige Layle:
That’s me. I have my own house and I’m like, “I can pay whatever I want.”
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, I love that.
Paige Layle:
And so I got purple paint, I’m like, “Yeah,” and then I got other paint, and I’m like, “This is perfect,” and people told me it looks like Boo’s door from Monsters, Inc.
Tori Dunlap:
It does.
Paige Layle:
And I didn’t even know that until people said that.
Tori Dunlap:
Kitty.
Paige Layle:
And I’m like, “This is amazing. This is perfect. I love it.”
Tori Dunlap:
That’s one of my all time favorite movies.
Paige Layle:
Right?
Tori Dunlap:
I love that movie so much.
Paige Layle:
[inaudible 00:03:46].
Tori Dunlap:
It’s been a minute since… Now, you’ve inspired me to watch that tonight.
Paige Layle:
Me too. I actually saw something about it today, Monsters, Inc. I’m like, “Oh, that’s a good movie.”
Tori Dunlap:
That’s where I’m like, the brilliance of Pixar is just unmatched where it’s just the concept for that movie is so good, and then the twist at the end where it turns out laughter is way more powerful than screams are, because of course.
Paige Layle:
Isn’t that just great? They’ve got some good ones.
Tori Dunlap:
“I’m on the cover of a magazine!” That’s my favorite.
Paige Layle:
I love it.
Tori Dunlap:
We’re so excited to have you. Thanks for being here.
Paige Layle:
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Tori Dunlap:
We’re going to dive right into it. Give us a background on getting your diagnosis. You were already in your teens, right? Tell us about that.
Paige Layle:
Heck yeah. Yeah, true, I was 15. I just turned 15. It was like 18 days after my 15th birthday, and I was sat down in front of a psychiatrist for the first time in my whole life, and talked for like three hours with him on a Zoom call pretty much, and my mom next to me. And after the three hours, like every single question you could think of, he’s like, “Yeah, man, you’re autistic. No one’s told you this? That’s why you’re struggling with everything. This is what autism is and here it is, here it goes,” and just him talking. I just slumped back and just saw my world unraveling in front of me like it was nothing. So many people knew this about themselves already, but that was just like he had all this information that I was just learning on that day. It was wild.
Tori Dunlap:
A lot of my friends are getting autism diagnoses, or they’re realizing they have ADHD or some sort of neurodivergency, and I think there is this friction between, “Oh my God, everything’s different now, and who am I and what is my identity?” But also a lot of the friends I’ve talked to, there’s this sense of relief. A lot of my friends are getting diagnosed in their 30s and they’re finally like, “Oh God, okay, I have the explanation now.” Did you feel both of those feelings? Obviously, the overwhelm was definitely there. How was that experience?
Paige Layle:
1,000,000%. It was really strange, because no one had ever recommended to my parents or me before that there was something going on with me, that I was different in any way, that my book is called. But Everyone Feels This Way, because that’s what my parents told me, “This is normal. You’re just like everyone else. Everyone feels this stressed and sad all the time. That’s normal.” What? No, it’s not. And if it is, it’s not okay. That’s where I hit my point, like this isn’t okay. Whatever it is, not okay. And so then someone telling me like, “Yeah, you’re right, girl, like for real, you’re not okay, and haven’t been,” it was like someone finally standing up for me for the first time, because I’d been trying to stand up for myself kind of, but I just hit so many nos and so many roadblocks, and so many… My parents didn’t even believe me.
So then finally someone saying, “You’re autistic,” it was like I could breathe and go, “Oh my gosh, I’m not crazy. I’m not lying. I’m not making it up. I’m not being-“
Tori Dunlap:
Dramatic.
Paige Layle:
“… overdramatic, right?”
Tori Dunlap:
Mm-hmm.
Paige Layle:
And that’s what I was called. I think also, I don’t know, I look this way that I do, and they put me in theater, and so then I cry. They’re like, “What a dramatic little bratty, little spoiled turd. What’s she doing crying? Over what? Because she put the shoe on the wrong foot? What a brat.” But then a little boy, my same grade, same thing, same situation, everyone would be like, “Whoa, why is he worked up all the time? What the heck’s going on?”
Tori Dunlap:
Well, can I pause you there? Let’s talk about the gender dynamic of that, because that is interesting to me of, okay, girls, women, overdramatic, too emotional, too sensitive. Boys, because we don’t condition typically in society, right? The gender roles, we condition boys to be tough, and to not show emotion, and so then it’s more of potentially like a flag of like, “Oh, something is going on,” so tell me more about that.
Paige Layle:
When they see a boy worked up all the time, they’re like, “Well, boys don’t cry and scream and get stressed about stuff all the time, little boys. That’s not a thing that we have little boys do.” So, if a little boy is doing that, if a little boy has sensory sensitivities, if a little boy just plays differently or socializes differently, it’s way more noticeable for some adults apparently. And honestly, I think I could see it, because as we condition a lot of girls, how I was as a kid, and especially the society that I grew up in, where my parents are… They’re business owners in this town they’ve lived in since their grandparents moved here, so they know everybody, everyone knows us. They’re like, “Paige is perfect, everyone’s perfect.” It’s like, “We’re perfect. Everything’s great.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right, white picket fence, Golden Retriever.
Paige Layle:
Right?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Paige Layle:
And then, “She just cries all the time, but that’s fine, that’s normal. She’s a girl, right? She’s just a little wah-wah girl. She’s a dramatic little wah girl. She’s a little girly girl, wah-wah-wah,” and they would just say, “Shut up, stop crying. Shut up, stop crying. Why are you crying?” But no one I think asked or really cared about why. It just happened to be the adults that I was around, I guess, too, at the time. Everyone just kind of took it as like, “You’re annoying. Why are you worked up? I don’t know.” And I can totally see how it happened to a bunch of my friends. It’s a thing. Girls are typically diagnosed with autism and with ADHD later than boys are, and part of the reason is because the whole criteria on everything in general was based on boys, and we’re now figuring out autism can look differently when it’s not in white boys.
That’s so wild that different people that are socialized differently can react differently to what their autism shows like. When you’re a person that can feed yourself primarily, when you can go to the bathroom by yourself, when you’re verbal, and even hyperverbal. Yeah, most people are like, “Oh, you’re good. You’re totally good,” which is really a part about autism that I didn’t know. I didn’t know I was autistic before I was diagnosed. I didn’t think I was before I was diagnosed, because I’d only ever seen people say, “This is autism,” when it was someone who I didn’t see as being similar to me, because everyone at that time, too, when I was growing up, no one knew anything about autistic people to say, “Autistic people are also people. Everyone’s just people, and this is what an autistic person is, this is what they struggle with.” If people even talked about neurodivergency when I was a kid, I probably could have picked up the fact that that was also me.
I probably could have picked up the fact, like we actually have so many similarities. There’s just different intensities at different parts and different things that I have intensities in completely different areas than they have intensities, and they’re way happier and more calm and okay in these areas than I am, but we struggle with the same thing. It’s called autism. It’s a diagnosis, it has a label, it’s wild, but you just don’t notice. We weren’t taught those things, and people are starting to now be taught more about autism, which is very cool for everybody, especially autistic kids growing up, learning that they’re autistic.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and before you even got your diagnosis, you’ve talked about that you had this list for yourself to help navigate the world. Tell me about that list. Can you talk to me about that?
Paige Layle:
Yeah, I had so many lists. I had notebooks and notebooks. I just saw what people were doing and how others reacted to it, and I wrote it down, because I didn’t know what to do, and I was stressed all the time about everything. So, I’d be stressed out of my mind about what to wear every day. I’m like, “What to wear?” It would freak me out. I’d have panic attacks every day. “What do I wear?” So I’m like, “Okay, I’m just going to write lists of outfits that I see at school, what people are wearing.”
And I’d write lists of what people are wearing. So, then the next day I just look at it and I just go, “Okay, yesterday so-and-so wore this. I know that’s an outfit to wear, so I can wear it, and it’s going to be fine,” so wear that, stress is gone. If it’s like, “I don’t know what to do. What foods do I eat at this…” Or, “Where do I take it from?” Well, I’m going to see what people are… Okay, they’re taking this, and this, and this. You have to go over to the left first and then go all the way to the right. Okay, well, then I know that’s what people are allowed to do. So I know if I do that, I’m going to be okay. No stress.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Paige Layle:
So, I had lists of jokes to say, I had lists of life lessons that people told me that I should remember. Some of them were stupid.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and wasn’t one in your book of like, “I got to eat a banana every Thursday, and if I’m going to drink tea, it’s got to be okay. I got to stir it once clockwise, two counterclockwise and-“
Paige Layle:
Wild. Well, part of me is I also have OCD, which I think is not uncommon in autistic people, too. It’s just, it’s very stress-dominated disorders where it’s just like, “I need control, because this doesn’t make sense, and there needs to be control somewhere.” So all those little things, all those little lists, not only were they trying to study and understand what people were doing to calm my anxiety, then all that was compulsions, and that got really deep.
I still have, and I had a lot of compulsions that were not fun, but then I’m like, “I have to do it. I have to live like this, because that’s what I’ve seen people live. It has to be this, and if it’s not, then it is a meltdown.” That’s more so when I got into my teens and got older and life really just did not make any sense, and it was just crumbling more and more and more and more each day. And I’m 15, which is so young when I think about it now. Now, I’m 23, and I’m like, “That’s so little, that’s so wild,” but those first 15 years were so long. I felt like I was 80 years old every day, and this is wild, this is so much. This is the most life, like I’m done, but I’m so glad I’m here and I wouldn’t be.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, your brain’s running a marathon every day, of course you feel exhausted. And one of the things, and we’ll put a trigger warning on the top of this episode, that we talk about or that we found in the research is suicide is just a lot more common in autistic people than neurodivergent people, because of what you just described, I imagine, which is like, “I feel like I’m fighting my own brain, fighting my own body. I have these compulsions that are now requirements, and that I have to complete every single day or every single morning.”
Paige Layle:
My brain’s going so fast.
Tori Dunlap:
Right, so I love that you said you’re still here. Of course, those 15 years felt like a lifetime. Of course, it felt like forever, because one, you didn’t have an answer to what was going on. Two, even well-meaning people in your life are gaslighting you, and you were probably gaslighting yourself, because you didn’t know any better. And then the third thing is, yeah, you were dealing with this on a day-to-day basis, and you’re looking around at everybody else and you’re like, “Is this how everybody else is feeling?”
Paige Layle:
Literally, and when you’re told that, “This is how everyone else is feeling,” I’m just looking around at everyone like, “Do you got this in the back of your head? Does your head work like mine, but you’re just hiding it? There’s stuff that you are thinking, but you just don’t say it, and I’m the only person that is saying this stuff?” I thought people were looking at me sideways sometimes. I’m like, “No, you guys are the same. You think this, too. It’s in your head. You’re just not saying it.” But everyone was like, “No.” And I’m like, “There’s no way these people are that slow. There’s no way. You’re not thinking this fast.” But no, when you’re six years old, most kids are six years old, and that’s something that I did not realize when I was six years old. I thought I was kind of like everybody.
But then back when I… So when I was in grade 11, you’re like 16, I went back to my public school, and for the first half of my year, I taught in the grade one classroom with six-year-olds, and I taught the six-year-olds how to read. I’d bring them outside and read the little booklets with them, the same booklets that I read 10 years earlier, the same things. And I was so excited to see what these kids were like, because I remembered how I was like, and I’m like, “Oh, are these kids going to be like that? What’s learning like for these kids?” Absolutely not. I was so mind-blown that six-year-olds read six-year-olds. They read at the beginning of the levels, and they’ve got to figure it out, and they don’t care that much about school.
They want to stop and like, “Miss Paige, yesterday, my mom and dad and my dog and my cousin did this, and I want to go…” There was like two kids in the class that we flipped through reading, and flipped through, and in between, they didn’t want to talk about anything other than reading, other than books, other than more things that they learned or what they read at home or different media that they in different ways… And I’m like, “You guys are clearly…” I didn’t say this to them, obviously, but in my head I’m like, “This is clearly a difference in these specific kids,” just in this way in general, such a clear difference. Not to say that… Of course, it’s not necessarily good, nor is it necessarily bad, it’s just so obvious, but I think because in that specific case, too, people are like, “Awesome, good, reading. That’s great.”
Tori Dunlap:
High achiever.
Paige Layle:
Exactly, praise, praise, praise.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, it’s almost like putting on a pair of glasses. This is maybe a bad example, because it’s definitely not the same thing, but I remember growing up, I got my first pair of glasses when I was seven, and it was like, “Oh, so this is what the world looks like.”
Paige Layle:
Oh my gosh.
Tori Dunlap:
Like, “Oh, I can read the blackboard.”
Paige Layle:
Right.
Tori Dunlap:
I mean, it wasn’t a blackboard. It’s not the 1960s, but, “I can read the whiteboard. I can actually see my teacher’s face fully.”
Paige Layle:
Wow.
Tori Dunlap:
I think that unless you have literally the lens you’re looking through, for my example, or my metaphor, but for you, it’s so obvious, because now you have the education and the lived experience to know like, “Oh, you’re obviously autistic, or there’s obviously something going on.” But for people who have never encountered that or never experienced it, of course it never occurs to them. It’s just, “Yeah, you’re high functioning,” or-
Paige Layle:
[inaudible 00:18:57]-
Tori Dunlap:
“Yeah, you’re a good student.” Right, “You’re very academically inclined.” Right, “You’re a high achiever.”
Paige Layle:
A lot of people think very… I think that a lot of people, and a lot of schools operate very, “Capitalism, you’re prepping for this, into the workforce. You’re going to go. You do this, you’re doing it, you’re good. And if you’re doing school, if you’re getting through in school, it doesn’t matter what your mental state is, you’re great, good, good. Do good in school, awesome job.” And I was doing good in school, and everyone’s like, “Oh, you’re great.”
Tori Dunlap:
You’re fine.
Paige Layle:
“You’re fabulous.” I’m like, “I’m losing my mind every single day,” and even in school, I cried a lot and I hated it, because I didn’t want to, but it was just so stressful, and so overwhelming, and so much that I didn’t even know going on in my head that was going on in my head, but I was doing good. So yeah, it didn’t even matter, but after, I thought that I was going to go to school forever and ever, and be a pediatric cardiothoracic surgeon, that’s what I wanted, because I love kids, and I love school, and I’m like, “I’m going to do school forever and ever.”
I went to McMaster for kinesiology. I was there for a year and a half. In my second year, I was an anatomy TA. I loved it so much, but I could not be a human person. It was way too many things that a lot was taking toll. My health was really not good. And then that’s where a doctor, a psychiatrist… I think the first time I was an adult, I was 19, so she was not bullshitting me, which a lot of other doctors had, when she was like, “What are you doing in school if you are so depressed that you want to die?” And I’m like, “Well, I got to do it. I got to be a doctor, then I got to keep going, and I got to…” And she’s like, “No, you don’t. Drop out.”
And I’m like, “I can’t drop out. I got to do…” And she’s like, “You can’t be a doctor if you’re dead, so you got to scoot. Drop out of school, literally.” And I’d never had that before. Everyone’s like, “You got it, Paige. You’re so good. You keep going. You’re so smart.” It was the first time someone’s like, “Give up, please give up.” And I’m like, “I can do that?” “Yeah, you can do that.” I literally quit the next day. I dropped out of school the next day and two days later I’m like, “I need to make some money. I need to have a job.” I got lash extensions at the time, and I’m like, “That sounds like a job I could totally do.” So, I took like a five-day lash course. And so a week later I’m like, “I’m opening up a lash business,” in my old bedroom as a child, and that’s where I ripped doing that for a little bit. Random segue, sorry.
Tori Dunlap:
No, but I think of… Do you know Taylor Tomlinson, the standup comedian?
Paige Layle:
Yeah, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
She has this great bit. I think she’s also discovered she has ADHD, I’m trying to remember, and I think she’s bipolar as well, or she has bipolar disorder, and she has this great bit where she’d be in high school, and she’d go to her dad and be like, “Dad, I’m really depressed. I’m not doing well.” And he’s like, “You just scoop a peanut butter. You need some protein, you’ll be fine.” And it’s like, “I do feel like there is just…” Again, I love my parents, they’re very supportive, but sometimes I’ll call and be like, “I’m just not doing great.” And they’re like, “Well, go take a walk. Have you taken a nap?”
Paige Layle:
My parents’ bit was like, “You need to go to the bathroom. You need to poop.”
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, my mom as well. She’s like, “Have you pooped?” Yeah, yeah, which again, helpful, but not getting to the root of the problem here.
Paige Layle:
My appendix exploded, and I’m like, “My stomach hurts so bad,” and they’re like, “You need to poop.” Like, “Go.” And literally I’m like 2:00 in the morning-
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 00:22:48] I need invasive surgery, actually.
Paige Layle:
I’m like, “Guys, this really hurts. I don’t think it’s this.” It was okay. My appendix is out now, so we’re-
Tori Dunlap:
Great.
Paige Layle:
But yeah, my parents’ parents, too. My grandparents are very like that, too. They’re very like, “Everything’s fine. You’re fine, you’re great.”
Tori Dunlap:
I think it’s a generational thing, because again-
Paige Layle:
Totally [inaudible 00:23:09].
Tori Dunlap:
… we’re the first generation to talk about going to therapy and it’s not the shameful thing, and also-
Paige Layle:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, now I’m quoting another standup comedian, but it’s just John Mulaney, but he has this thing of like, “I’ll bottle it up all right here, and then one day I’ll die.” And it’s like, that’s it, which is just like, “I’ll keep it right here and then one day I will just die.”
Paige Layle:
And that’s fine.
Tori Dunlap:
Perfect, don’t have to deal with it, don’t have to reflect on it.
Paige Layle:
You know what happens there? I’m pretty sure autoimmune disorders. I’m pretty sure that’s what happens when that happens.
Tori Dunlap:
Right, stress and everything else. So, you have the metaphor that you’re using to explain how autistic brains work is using highways?
Paige Layle:
Oh, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Can you share about this illustration and then maybe how it shows how autistic brains operate differently?
Paige Layle:
Yeah, I love this. So, there’s this thing in autism, it’s about the connectivity of the nervous system, and just that autistic people’s brains are connected differently than neurotypical brains. So when you’re born, your brain has a bunch of just stupid little neurons, and we have got so many, and we want to do stuff and figure it out. And so as you learn, the neurons start connecting with each other and start making pathways and figuring out, “Okay, this is good.” And as some skills get really good, really defined, some connections get really strong, and more neurons get added, and so it’s like neural highway of information. So, info can be boom, boom, from one area to another really quick, because you’ve done that skill so much. Your neurons are like, “This is automatic now. We’ve done it so much, we know what to do. We’ve built this highway, we’re good.”
And so, what happens there is other neurons that were just floating around over in this section, maybe they’re not used. So, then they get pruned away, neuron pruning. You get rid of neurons that aren’t used, so then the highways that are really strong and those electrical signals that are really strong aren’t interfered with and not goopy. They’re nice and strong. So, this happens to everyone. Everyone’s neurons prune as you learn. That’s why they say it’s easier to learn things when you’re younger than when you’re older, because when you’re younger, you’ve got all these neurons that are ready to be specialized. So with autistic people, very cool thing that they’ve learned is that autistic people have more neurons in their brain than neurotypical people. So, we’re not sure why. We’re not sure if this is the result of this happening or if this is why this happens, but because we’ve got all these neurons in our brain, we also have less highway connections in our brain.
So, what that kind of means, or what that kind of looks like is that if neurotypicals have all these highways, really strong highways in their brain that connect this part to this part of the brain really quickly, whereas we’ve got a lot more neurons, we’ve got a lot more of a difficulty having strong neural highway connections from brain part to brain part. There’s just so much interference. There’s so much electrical activity happening in our brains that in a small section of the brain… If you just look at the frontal lobe, if you look at an autistic person, we’ve got a lot of neurons, that means that if we were to do a task that just involved one center of the brain, but we’ve got more signals, we’ve got more stuff going on, we’re going to have a more intense reaction to whatever that task is.
So, let’s say that task is just sensory input, we’re going to have more sensory input than others. Let’s say that task is specifically like memorization, we’re going to have better memorization than neurotypicals. If it’s pattern recognition, because that is just in one part of the brain, we’re going to do that better than neurotypicals. If it’s something like body language, that requires multiple areas of the brain to work together, that requires you to… You have to know so many different things about people, and faces, and body, and about communication, and about manipulation, and about all these different things working together, and that is something that autistic people are not known to be super good at.
And it’s just so funky that our brains and just thinking of how the connectivity works in our brains and how the connections work in our brains actually makes so much sense as to why we are and why we react the way that we do. We have so much electrical activity going on that all these different areas of complex humanity, sociality, layers of knowing people, whatever, it just gets all… It gets all lost way too much. We’ve got a lot of small towns that are really good at communicating with each other, but we some highways, too. Whatever, we still got brains, but we got small towns that are really good at, “We’re going to run this committee, and we got a really good committee,” like those specific detail things, and I’m like, “That makes so much sense.”
Tori Dunlap:
That’s so helpful, too, and I’m thinking about my experience as a kid, and I had an autistic classmate, and this kid could give you every battle and every war, knew everything about history. And I remember as someone who thought myself pretty smart and was academically inclined was just like, “This is another level,” but then social skills were just not there. And as a kid, very hard to understand what’s going on, but also, I just think back to that time, of course, he was bullied and teased, because the “important”, and I’m putting “important” in quotes, but the “important” thing when you’re growing up is not really how well you do in school, it’s, “Are you weird or not?” Right?
Paige Layle:
Yeah, are you a good kid? What are you doing?
Tori Dunlap:
Right, and for other kids it’s, “Can I be friends with you or are you just the “weird kid?” And again, I mean weird purposefully derogatory here. So I think-
Paige Layle:
For real, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I imagine that… Again, I’m thinking back to childhood you, and I just imagine that experience is so tricky when, yeah, there are certain pathways in your brain that are firing all cylinders, like never been seen before, and then there’s other ones that are just like, “Not happening, nope.”
Paige Layle:
Yeah, I got other villages going on that all this stuff, it seems so complex and so abstract, like a lot of abstract concepts, they seem so abstract to me. It’s almost like I can feel my brain not connecting the dots. My brain’s like, “This doesn’t make sense to me,” but then other things like math, math makes so much sense to me. That’s just patterns, and boom, easy-peasy, but I’m a social media person. Making people on social media happy, and public, whatever, never. I have no idea, whatever my head, I don’t know. That’s so many things. That’s so many things that conflict each other, and there is no right answer, and that’s the hard thing about humans.
Tori Dunlap:
As a neurotypical person, I will also tell you, that’s my experience, too, just I’m sure on a more minor scale. Social media is hellscape, but no, I know what you mean. That’s probably the worst version of body language, because it’s a bunch of strangers, and a bunch of people who you will never meet-
Paige Layle:
Never.
Tori Dunlap:
… who are giving you opinion every hour of the day.
Paige Layle:
It’s made me learn a lot about psychology, because I really just have to-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, yeah.
Paige Layle:
Yeah, I just look at these people that see like a 15-second clip of me, and then they want to comment the worst stuff about me, and I’m like-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, the absolute worst.
Paige Layle:
“Paige, it’s not about you. It’s about them. They don’t know anything about you.” As a recovering people pleaser myself, that’s been something really fun, navigating with social media. It’s made me grow, honestly, tremendously. It has, I’ve had to grow up and like, “Ooh, this is what we’re doing. Okay, people are like this.”
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and that’s kind of related to the question I have for you next, which is about masking, and I think everybody, even neurotypical people mask-
Paige Layle:
[inaudible 00:31:29]-
Tori Dunlap:
… especially-
Paige Layle:
[inaudible 00:31:30] something like it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, especially in entrepreneurial worlds, the corporate world. There’s just this need to put on a mask and sift through a lot of the bullshit, pretend to be someone you’re not, because being your true self might be punished. So, have you found spaces in the entrepreneurial world that have fully embraced this side of you? And then have you had to pull away, I mean, it sounds like a little bit of social media, right? Have you had to pull away from spaces that didn’t?
Paige Layle:
Yeah, there’s definitely spaces now that are helpful, and accommodating, and understanding, and run their business from a place of being neurodiversity-affirming, but there are definitely a lot of places that do not understand and that won’t understand. And I’ve kind of just had to make the switch of the mindset to be like, “I need to focus on my clients, my customers, my people that actually are finding what I say important. They are finding what I say helpful and what can I do for them, and that’s where I need to focus my energy.” And all those people that are doing all that hate anywhere on social media, if there’s someone who doesn’t like me for XYZ reason… And people can not like me for lots of reasons, that’s totally okay. But if they’re like, “Oh, this doesn’t work,” and it’s because of something to do with me being autistic…
But you know what? I actually don’t think I’ve really had that happen. Most places have been really, really good, really accommodating, really understanding. I’m really emotional and can get really stressed, and I need a lot of things planned out or, “What’s going on? Where is everything?” And a lot of places are really good, really accommodating and understanding, which is awesome. I feel actually like by having my advocacy become a business is making me so much happier, because I’m focusing on those people, and getting to see, and have closer interactions with those people that I’m actually directly influencing and impacting. That is the best, and I get to be my truest self. So, all those other people that are like, “We want you to act a certain way, we want you to be a certain way,” I’m not going to, because also I want little kids that watch me to not feel like they have to either.
That’s probably actually one of my biggest things. I love kids. I’m a dance teacher, and there’s so many people in the creative world that are neurodivergent, and I never want to hide who I am, especially around kids, especially when I do… I have kids-ish that follow me, like in their later teens or whatever, and I just want to be authentically me, and be serious, and raw. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows, and, “This is what I hated about today.” And then they see it and they’re like, “Me too. I feel okay, I feel normal, I feel seen, I feel alive. I’m okay,” that is what I never had. If I saw someone like that when I was a kid, it would just be wild. That’s something I really try to focus on and do. I really try to be myself, because I would hate for a kid to see me not being myself and think, “Well, why aren’t you? Why can’t I?”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. No, I love that. I want to talk about personal finance with you-
Paige Layle:
I’m so into it.
Tori Dunlap:
… because managing finances as an autistic person, you’ve talked about how… We’ve kind of talked in this about how people with autism have different topics that they’re especially proficient in. Some people are more like the maths, numbers, some people are more drawn to language and creativity. What is it about stocks in particular that work well for you and your brain, and what are some of the challenges you faced with money?
Paige Layle:
My parents are both entrepreneurs, and they have been their whole lives, and so they’ve always… They gave me the first mindset and idea of like, “You need to save money and this is what everything costs. And do you know what a mortgage is? This is what it is.” My mom’s a realtor. So, I grew up really hardworking, and I worked multiple jobs all throughout high school, and in through university, and just save, save, save, save, save, save, save, because that’s what I did. I wasn’t a spender. I just had save, save, save, save, and so I was good at that. I’m also very good at being frugal and saying, “I don’t have the money for that, actually. I cannot afford that,” and just hoarding it. That’s what I did for a long time. Starting my first business, my little lash company out of my old bedroom was a big switch, because I’d never taken any business course or anything, so I just had to kind of figure it out as I went along.
The money thing came figuring out all the money and how that all was going to work. Actually, I got a little bit lucky and I got to have a break to figure it out, because five months into starting that business was COVID, and then I had five months of, “You can’t do anything.” And so during those five months, I’m like, “What the heck am I doing?” Figuring it out, creating a website and getting a business number, et cetera, and really, my parents had done all these things, but I’ve always had a weird relationship with my parents, a little tricky, and they’ve never really been good teachers.
They’re like, “Yeah, you just do it.” And I’m like, “No, I don’t know. I would love for you to tell me,” and they’re like, “I don’t know.” So I’m like, “All right, I got to figure this out,” and it has been a journey. Something that I’m very excited about is actually right now I’m currently enrolled in this business course thing that my city is putting together, or they hold every year and you have to apply for it, but it’s like six months continuous of…
Like a business course, there’s a lot of cool stuff. They’re going to teach you a lot about finances, about marketing, about anything like digital media, stuff you want… Bookkeeping, blah, blah, blah, which I’m very excited to learn about. I’m very good with numbers. I can do the math, whatever. I’m not good with a lot of other things. With social media specifically, my advocacy on social media accidentally blew up, and then brands just kind of threw themselves at me and were like, “We’ll give you this if you do this.” And I’m like, “Well, I could do that. Sure, that’s easy enough. Sure,” and everything was just kind of happening reactively for a bit.
Tori Dunlap:
I feel like that was TikTok-
Paige Layle:
Right?
Tori Dunlap:
… in-
Paige Layle:
In 2020.
Tori Dunlap:
… 2020, 2021.
Paige Layle:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
It was just-
Paige Layle:
A boom.
Tori Dunlap:
I have so many people who follow us on TikTok, because I teach people how to negotiate with brands, and how to do all of that. But oh gosh, I had people in my DMs who had three, four, or 5 million followers and being like, “They’ve asked me to do the moon and stars for $300. Should I do it?”
Paige Layle:
Dude-
Tori Dunlap:
I’m like-
Paige Layle:
… absolutely not.
Tori Dunlap:
.. no.
Paige Layle:
No.
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely not, but because, again, the whole mission of my work, the whole mission of the show is because nobody talks about money.
Paige Layle:
No one teaches it. Yeah, exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
And nobody teaches it.
Paige Layle:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You have no idea if $300 is a good thing to charge, and I think especially with a new industry, like being online, being an influencer, being a creator-
Paige Layle:
I’ve been that person.
Tori Dunlap:
… there’s no-
Paige Layle:
I had no idea.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Paige Layle:
So what, it’s 2024, so I’m just hitting four years now. I’m just now figuring out some things. Before brands, they would give me a number that they were going to give me at first, and at the beginning I’m like, “Yeah, whatever it is. That’s a bigger number than I’ve ever seen,” right?
Tori Dunlap:
Right, and I see this with corporate people, too, who are like, “Oh, you want to give me this much a year? Okay,” and they don’t negotiate, and don’t think about it, because they’re just like, “Oh God, okay, great-“
Paige Layle:
Wonderful.
Tori Dunlap:
“… you’re going to… Sure.”
Paige Layle:
And now I just hit a point where I’m like, “What am I doing? This is so reactive. I’ve lost myself. I’m not doing what I want to do. I don’t like brand deals. I hate selling myself. I hate it.” So I’m like, “I have a sponsor, here they are.” I hate it. So just I’m like, “Okay, I want to do a business, be a business, start a business,” because I also have all these followers and I’m not doing nothing with them. It’s a big learning curve. There’s some things that I’m good at, there’s some things I’m definitely not good at. One thing I’m good at is the rules, which is good, so getting in touch with an accountant and asking, “What are taxes? What do I do?” And I’ve had a few meetings with him just to ask and write down things. That’s been helpful. So, you’re in the States?
Tori Dunlap:
I’m in the States.
Paige Layle:
We have CRA. It’s the Canadian Revenue Agency, that’s where we can find all about-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, the IRS.
Paige Layle:
That’s right, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. The page is just innavigable.
Tori Dunlap:
Not helpful.
Paige Layle:
Yeah. How do I get through this and what does any of it mean, right?
Tori Dunlap:
That’s every single-
Paige Layle:
Every government website.
Tori Dunlap:
Anything connected to personal finance or money is just-
Paige Layle:
Just awful.
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely unnavigable.
Paige Layle:
I’m trying to learn so much, but there’s also so many things, so many rules. The best thing is finding people who know it, who are in there.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and I want to call it what you just said, putting my personal finance expert hat on. I don’t do my own taxes. I never have. That is something that is pretty high stakes, and it’s also, I don’t feel qualified to do that, especially I have a more complicated tax structure with the business and everything. So it’s like, yeah, that’s a business expense for us, like hire an accountant. That’s never a bad thing.
Paige Layle:
No, me three.
Tori Dunlap:
I want to talk to you about something you say in your book about this idea that autistic people all have the same interests, and strengths, and weaknesses. And of course, we know that autism is not a monolith, and that it’s really harmful and completely false. Have you run into this in your daily life or run into this in the business world?
Paige Layle:
To clarify your question, that people think autistic people are all kind of the same?
Tori Dunlap:
The same.
Paige Layle:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Paige Layle:
The first TV interview I did, they came to my house, and with their crew camera, and it was the first time, I think, that I’d been around people who were not neurodiversity-affirming or okay with it, and I just… I didn’t even know what I was doing. I’m like, “I’m so excited,” and she looked at me weird and she’s like, “Okay, calm down,” and I was just so thrown off by that, and that just didn’t stop. And she’s like, “Okay, relax. Take a breath,” at various points throughout the day where I’m like, “I’m fine.” Or she would look at me weird and be like, “Are you okay? It’s okay,” like just weird… So, condescending and weird.
Tori Dunlap:
Did she know your work? Is that why she was there?
Paige Layle:
I don’t even… Yeah, that was the point, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, boy.
Paige Layle:
It was so strange, and she asked questions, too, that she did not put on the show that I so wanted her to put on the show. She asked me questions, she’s like… One of the questions was something, something, she said, “You don’t look autistic.”
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, mm-hmm.
Paige Layle:
And was just quiet and just looked at me, and I just looked at her and I went, “Well, what does autism look like?” And she was like, “Uh, uh…”
Tori Dunlap:
Probably didn’t like that question.
Paige Layle:
Yeah, she was like, “Good question. I don’t know.” And I’m like-
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Paige Layle:
I don’t know.
Tori Dunlap:
It sounds like we had someone who… Yeah, if I’m assuming positive intent, who had not experienced or been around neurodiversity, didn’t work to understand it very much, and… Yeah, boy.
Paige Layle:
Right? Yeah, I don’t know what it is. I don’t know, some people hear autism and they just think something in their head that’s like one idea that they’ve heard of once, and it’s different for everyone.
Tori Dunlap:
Right, they’re trying to fit you in the preconceived box they’ve already built, right.
Paige Layle:
Whatever it is, whether it’s Sheldon Cooper, whether it’s Rain Man, whether it’s that one autistic kid in their class in grade five, whether it’s their nephew, whatever it is, they’re like, “You are him, you are them, you are…” And they’re like… I can see it in their heads as they look at me. They’re trying to… Or sometimes you’ll see someone that I know they’ve definitely got an autistic person in their family, when they come up to me after hearing I’m autistic or something, and they try to offer or talk about something that their autistic person likes, and I can tell, “You’re trying to be cute and be sweet, but that has nothing to do with me. That’s just a person thing. That’s not an autism thing,” but it’s cute.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, they’re trying to find ways… Again, if we’re assuming positive intent, they’re trying to find ways to connect with you.
Paige Layle:
To connect, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
And they’re just like, “Oh, this is what I’ve got.”
Paige Layle:
Yeah, you could see it going, and I could see it working in their heads of like, “Yeah.” And I’m like, “That is so nice. You’re so cute.” That is a really sweet way.
Tori Dunlap:
I love your response of, “Yeah, what does an autistic person look like?” And then she’s like-
Paige Layle:
She’s like, “You don’t look autistic.” And so I’m like, “Well, what should I look like?” And she’s like-
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Paige Layle:
And she’s like, “I don’t know. What should you look like?” And I’m like, “I don’t know, I asked you that actually, so you answer.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right. I think there’s just some people like that who are just like, “Yeah, you don’t look like a business owner.” Okay, what is a business owner look like?
Paige Layle:
Me. You don’t look like a [inaudible 00:45:14]-
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Paige Layle:
People will come to my house to do repairs, and they’re like, “Give this to your dad,” the bill. And I’m like, “Oh, I can pay it.” They’re like, “Oh, just pay it later.” I’m like, “I can pay right now.” And they’re like, “Oh, you know, when your parent gets home.” And I’m like, “No, I own this house, and I can pay it right now in cash.” And they’re just so blown away, which is what-
Tori Dunlap:
I’m 23.
Paige Layle:
And I look like this little… And I don’t know very much about stuff. So I’m probably like, “Come in, it’s down here, the panel when I’m…”
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Paige Layle:
And they’re like, “Okay, child, baby.” I’m used to, I think, people assuming a lot about me. I’m used to people looking at me and assuming that I’m neurotypical, that I’m dumb, that I’m just ditzy, probably a little really into guys. People look at me and assume these… All my life. It’s very funny, and all my life I’ve been very subject to, “When I first met you, I thought you were a bitch, but once I got to know you, you’re actually really… And you’re really weird, and who would’ve thought that you were actually so weird underneath.”
Tori Dunlap:
And you’re like, “Do you want me to say thank you to that? How would you like me to respond?”
Paige Layle:
Can I tell you, I got a DM from one of my exes ex-girlfriends when she found out I was autistic on social media. Oh my God, she said, “Paige, you don’t know me, but I’m so-and-so’s ex before you, and when you guys first started dating, I was so insecure about you. You were so perfect. And now that I found out that you’re autistic, I see that nobody’s perfect, and you’ve made me feel really relaxed.”
Tori Dunlap:
Hannah Montana knew that better than anybody. What the fuck?
Paige Layle:
I couldn’t believe it. I did not respond, because I’m like… In what world?
Tori Dunlap:
Again, it’s back to our internet is the wildest place, and also just people are crazy.
Paige Layle:
Wowee, “Yeah, now that I know that you’re autistic…”
Tori Dunlap:
I just think that there is… We’ve talked a lot about this on this show, not so much the neurodiversity side of this, but I do feel like people feel threatened when you’re unabashedly yourself. Michael Jordan, they took that personally, but they take it personally. It’s not like… There’s something about people being themselves that makes insecure people even more insecure.
Paige Layle:
100%.
Tori Dunlap:
And it’s through no fault of the secure person, it’s just you being your fullest version of yourself unmasked makes almost everybody else… Because most people don’t live the authentic version of themselves, it makes everybody else realize, “Oh, shit, I don’t like myself. I don’t like the masks I wear.” And so rather than evaluate that, it’s like, “Oh, well, I love that you’re so weird. I could never do that,” right?
Paige Layle:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Or just these weird comments that are… And especially on social media, it just comes to me time and time again, to your point of it has everything to do with this other person, and nothing to do with me. It’s that over and over and over again. And I-
Paige Layle:
[inaudible 00:48:17].
Tori Dunlap:
Again, I’m neurotypical, but I think there’s an interesting… What you just said about assumptions about other people to you, I am working actively on being okay with the story that somebody has come up with about me, and the assumptions that someone has come… Because I can’t control those-
Paige Layle:
[inaudible 00:48:37]-
Tori Dunlap:
And I want to control the narrative, I want to respond and be like, “No, that’s not true, and that’s not this,” and it’s just like-
Paige Layle:
That was me forever.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s just like, I think that I can’t have people understand, and that’s something I’m actively working on of, if you’re going to assume something about me, I’m not going to convince you otherwise, and it’s on you that you’re assuming it.
Paige Layle:
That’s a big thing that I’m trying to… I think I’ve always been-
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 00:49:02]-
Paige Layle:
Especially in my childhood, I was like, “No, you’re wrong. You’re wrong, and this is why…” I also think-
Tori Dunlap:
Right, prove-
Paige Layle:
[inaudible 00:49:08]-
Tori Dunlap:
You’re proving them right.
Paige Layle:
And especially I think, too, when you’re like, yes, a lot in your childhood, too, just about a lot, who you are, you’re like, “I’m trying to prove them. I’m trying to prove that I’m not lying, that I’m not being dramatic, that I’m not… Let me prove it.” And I am also very susceptible, too, if anyone… I’ve had a lot of bad people in my life that have convinced me and told me that I was the bad person, and I’m always wondering if I’m the bad person, always hoping I’m not, trying to not be the bad person, and all of the ways, and I’m very susceptible to people saying that I’m the bad person, and all over, “You’re the bad person,” and for any reason.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t mean to take you to therapy here, but I’m only asking, because I feel this way. Do you have a fear of getting in trouble?
Paige Layle:
In trouble?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Paige Layle:
I did, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m about to turn 30 and I still have the fear of getting in trouble.
Paige Layle:
Yeah, I did by my parents, and when I’d get in trouble by my teachers, it was horrendous.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I’m even talking like I’m at the place and my parents and I disagree about plenty of things, and I had to work for years to make my own choices. I’m even talking about like, “Oh, somebody’s mad at me on the internet? I’m in trouble.” I have the fight or flight body drips and sweat, not that intense, but-
Paige Layle:
You know what happened to me? Yesterday, I was on a call with literally the business coach, and I accidentally was four minutes late. Never in my life have I been a minute late to a Zoom call, but I was sitting here for 15 minutes, I wrote an email… Anyway, four minutes late, so I pop on and I’m like, “I’m so sorry, that’ll never happen again.” And she’s like, “No, it’s totally fine, blah, blah, blah, totally fine.”
And she said, “I was thinking for a second like, is she really going to do this to me?” And I was like, “I’m so sorry,” and then whatever, and as she kept talking, tears just went down my face, and I’m like, “Shut up, Paige. What are you doing?” But then she asked me a question and I had to answer, and I’m like, “I’m sorry, I just need a second,” and just cried, because I felt whatever I felt inside me like, “I did a bad thing or she’s upset with me, but also I failed and I shouldn’t have done that,” and I’m mad at myself. And that was literally yesterday, and it was awful. It was so strange, but yeah, what you’re saying.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t mean to take us into that tangent, but I have the same thing where I’m just like, “I don’t want to get in trouble.” To your point, I don’t want to let myself down, and I don’t want to let people I respect down.
Paige Layle:
I’ve always hated people being dumb, and it’s a thing that I’m getting over now as I get older. But when I was a kid-
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 00:51:47] girl, same.
Paige Layle:
I’m like, “Are you serious? You can’t be saying that or thinking that. That’s just stupid.” But people… I don’t do that now are say that now. I just think it in my head, but now I think in my head, “Be stupid. Go be stupid.” I’m going to not be stupid.
Tori Dunlap:
Be unempathetic. Be-
Paige Layle:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
… ununderstanding.
Paige Layle:
Do whatever you do, that’s you. I’ve now realized that me trying to convince people stuff all the time, especially convince people who I am or how I want them to see me, that’s not my business. That’s their thoughts. That’s a boundary I’m crossing, to be honest, to try to change their thoughts and mind.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Isn’t it Mel Robbins where she just says like, let them?
Paige Layle:
Yeah, I think so.
Tori Dunlap:
Or somebody. I don’t know if she started that, but it’s just like, “Let them.”
Paige Layle:
Let them, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, just let them.
Paige Layle:
Let them.
Tori Dunlap:
They’re going to think that way, let them. They’re going to do that thing, let them.
Paige Layle:
First hearing that when I was like 12, I’m like, “I can’t.”
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, I know.
Paige Layle:
“I could never, I won’t.”
Tori Dunlap:
I know, immediate hives [inaudible 00:52:49]. Palms weak, arms are heavy, vomit sweater.
Paige Layle:
That’s why I think, too, in the place that I’m in, too, like the autistic community, it’s not a lot of just let thems, it’s a lot of people that are like, “Absolutely not.” And the most hate does come from your own community most of the time. I think honestly, the hate that kills the most would be from my own community.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s how I feel, too. The stuff that hits me the hardest is from women who are in the target demo, who are… And they’re often the meanest, but I do want to wrap up by saying [inaudible 00:53:22]-
Paige Layle:
Oh, true. I’m so sorry.
Tori Dunlap:
No, you’re good. We’re on a tangent and I wanted to bring us back.
Paige Layle:
I know, I do it all the time.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s okay. No, I do, too, but I did want to… The flip side of that, as we spent the last time I was talking about the hellscape, how has your work impacted people? I imagine you’ve gotten so many lovely messages of, “I feel less alone.” Tell me some of those stories.
Paige Layle:
It’s amazing. It’s what’s kept me going and what’s made me know and feel like I need to make this bigger and more meaningful and more direct, because I have the potential, apparently. Not me, but this audience. There’s so many people gathered in this one place on social media that want the same thing, and I’m like, “There’s so much to do here.” And for me, it’s like, there’s so much I want to do. It’s corralling that into just one thing at a time, because I want to change the world, but changing the world doesn’t happen overnight. It’s amazing, it’s beautiful. I get DMs, I get letters. The letters are… I got a letter yesterday from an 11-year-old girl who said every day she comes home after school and watches one of my videos, and feels less alone after a hard day at school.
Tori Dunlap:
Aw, baby.
Paige Layle:
And then I got a letter last week from a 65-year-old man who said, “I just discovered you this week and I now know everything about myself that I’ve never known. Thank you.”
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Paige Layle:
And it’s just the most wild… The first few messages I got like that made me just lose my mind, because that was me, that was… Imagine that being you, Paige, and seeing online someone like you and realizing it before having to go through all this hell, and try to end your life, and end up in the hospital for someone to say you’re autistic. These people are figuring it out online. I’m like, “I cannot believe that I…” I’m just so happy, and it’s not just a few people, it’s been like thousands of people, and families, and parents that say thank you.
I’ve seen messages from like 2020, and someone saying like, “I just got my kid diagnosed because of you.” And then 2024 they’re like, “I just got diagnosed because of you.” That’s what the deal is, and I want to create an environment, and a place where people like me can exist, and be, learn about ourselves, and be comfortable. And I just want that to keep increasing and going, and it is. That’s all I can say. Four years ago, it was nothing to what it is today, and that’s four years. I can’t imagine four decades. Four decades from now, it’s going to be a whole different world. I’m really happy.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that so very much. Thank you for being here. Where can people find more about your work and your book? Plug away.
Paige Layle:
Oh, sure. Well, you can find me at Paige Layle, basically everywhere, paigelayle.ca. My book is called But Everyone Feels This Way: How an Autism Diagnosis Saved My Life, and you can get it at Hatchette Go. It’s also available on Amazon, Target, Walmart, Barnes & Noble, Indigo, anywhere where books are sold. Find me on YouTube, Instagram. Yeah, all those fun places.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you. Thanks for being here.
Paige Layle:
Thank you so much for having me as well. It’s been great having a chit-chat with you.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you to Paige for joining us. You can follow Paige on TikTok or YouTube @paigelayle, and her book But Everyone Feels This Way is available wherever you get your books. Thank you as always for being here, your support of the show, and these important conversations means the world to us. So subscribing, sharing this episode with people that are important to you, as well as turning on auto downloads is the easiest way you can support us. And if you love the show, leave a five-star review, we appreciate it. All right, team, I will see you from Yonder Europe and I’ll talk to you later.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, and Tamisha Grant, research by Sarah Sciortino, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf, marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First $100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bachmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Kurronen, Daryl Ann Ingram, and Meghan Walker, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
