Hey Financial Feminists –– I’m beyond excited to bring you an eye-opening conversation with Marina Gerner, the author of The Vagina Business: The Innovative Breakthroughs that Could Change Everything in Women’s Health. We’re discussing the shocking gender biases in healthcare — from the staggering lack of medical research focused on women’s health to the uphill battles female entrepreneurs face when pitching women-centric innovations.
This episode is packed with actionable insights on how we can support better research, champion women-owned businesses, and finally start talking openly about the topics that impact us most.
Key takeaways:
Challenge gender bias in medical research.
- Understand that women make over 80% of healthcare decisions, yet only 4% of medical R&D is focused on women’s health issues. For example, there are five times more studies on erectile dysfunction — which affects 19% of men — than on PMS, which affects 90% of women. Advocate for equitable research funding that prioritizes women’s health needs.
Demand inclusion of women in clinical trials.
- Acknowledge that historically, women have been excluded from medical studies, leading to treatments that may not be effective or safe for them. This exclusion has resulted in women being nearly twice as likely to experience severe side effects from drugs. Push for the mandatory inclusion of women in clinical research to ensure safer and more effective treatments.
Support female entrepreneurs in women’s health technology.
- Be aware that female founders in femtech face significant hurdles in securing venture capital due to societal taboos and investor biases. Startups like BloomerTech’s smart bra for heart health and Materna Medical’s device to prevent birth injuries are groundbreaking but underfunded. Actively support and invest in women-led health innovations to bring these essential products to market.
Break taboos by openly discussing women’s health issues.
- Challenge societal norms by talking openly about vaginas, menstruation, and sexual health. Marina highlighted that shame prevents funding and innovation in women’s health. By normalizing these conversations, we can reduce stigma and promote better health outcomes.
Be your own advocate.
- Empower yourself by asking healthcare providers critical questions, such as whether treatments have been tested on women like you and what side effects may occur. Marina emphasized that medical gaslighting is common; don’t hesitate to seek second opinions or request treatments that consider your unique needs.
Notable quotes
“Society wants us to look good, but it’s less interested in whether we feel well.”
“Women make 80% of healthcare decisions but exist within a system designed by men and for men.”
“We need to distinguish between privacy and shame. Someone’s period can be a private matter, but if you have shame getting in the way of funding innovation, that is a huge issue.”
Episode at-a-glance:
≫ 06:27 The Vagina Business: book overview
≫ 14:10 Challenges in women’s health research
≫ 18:36 Systemic issues and personal experiences
≫ 29:50 Challenges women face in entrepreneurship
≫ 32:36 Gender bias in investment questions
≫ 36:52 The role of femtech in women’s health
≫ 41:00 Addressing diversity in women’s health
≫ 42:28 The importance of sexual health
≫ 49:06 Innovative products in women’s health
≫ 53:17 Advocating for women’s health
Marina’s Links:
Substack: https://marinagerner.substack.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marinagerner/
Get Marina’s book: The Vagina Business: The Innovative Breakthroughs that Could Change Everything in Women’s Health
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Squarespace
Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase.
Masterclass
Get up to 50% off MasterClass this holiday at masterclass.com/FFPOD.
Rocket Money
Stop wasting money on things you don’t use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com/FFPOD.
Quince
Get cozy in Quince’s high-quality wardrobe essentials. Go to Quince.com/FFPOD for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.
Mint Mobile
Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at Mintmobile.com/ffpod.
RESOURCES:
Feeling Overwhelmed? Start here!
Our HYSA Partner Recommendation (terms apply)
Behind the Scenes and Extended Clips on Youtube
Leave Financial Feminist a Voicemail
Financial Feminist on Instagram
Take our FREE Money Personality Quiz
Meet Marina
Marina Gerner is an award-winning financial journalist and Adjunct Professor of Culture and Commerce at NYU Stern School of Business (London campus). Her work has been published in The Economist’s 1843, the Wall Street Journal, the Guardian, Financial Times, Wired magazine, the Times Literary Supplement, Standpoint, and Jewish Chronicle. She has received a book grant from the prestigious Alfred P. Sloan Foundation for this book and is based in London.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
When I researched the space, I realized that the last big innovation in the standard of care of birth was the epidural, which was popularized in the 1950s, which just tells you everything, right? There’s no other area of technology where we say, “Oh, look at this floppy disk. It’s the most cutting-edge thing we have.”
Hi, financial feminists. I’m excited to see you. Welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. If you are an oldie but a goodie, you know this already, but if you’re new, my name is Tori. I’m a money expert. I fight the patriarchy by making women rich. We’ve helped 5 million women save money, pay off debt, start investing and start businesses. And if you want a free personalized money plan from me, you can go to herfirst100k.com/quiz.
You’re going to answer a few questions about where you’re at in your financial journey, and we’re going to give you some step-by-step resources around how you can save money or pay off debt or start investing or wherever you’re at. So go to herfirst100k.com/quiz. It’s completely free. It allows us to help you help yourself. If you’re new to this show or if you’ve maybe only listened to a couple episodes, you might be wondering why we are not just purely a finance show.
We like to say at Her First $100K that we’re more of a feminist company that talks about money, and we’re here talking about the everyday issues that impact women’s finances. And that’s not just about Roth IRAs or student loans. It’s also about anything that affects a woman’s life because it also affects a woman’s money. So that’s why we’re talking about vaginas today. That’s why we brought on Marina Gerner to talk about her new book, The Vagina Business, which is the innovative breakthroughs that could change everything in women’s health. So women make over 80% of healthcare decisions in everyday life. Fun fact, yet only 4% of all medical research and development is focused on women’s health. Yay! So that’s what we’re talking about today. We’re talking about gender bias and how the healthcare industry has repeatedly excluded women from studies for decades and how this impacts women’s health to this day.
We discuss why it’s so hard to raise money, raise capital for women focused businesses, even though our purchasing power is the literal backbone of the economy. This is the classic, “Hey, we make most of the spending decisions and we actually influence the economy. And yet there’s very few of us in positions of power to dictate more broadly, holistically how the money is spent.” And we also talk about how we can support better research, how we can support more women owned and women focused technology and companies. And I think most interesting to me is in my own work and life, I’ve learned a lot about the lack of funding in women’s health. Especially the lack of testing and research for women, for reproductive health, for basically any medicine concerning women, but specifically also women of color. There’s a reason that the Black mortality rate is the highest it’s been in a long time in the country, and especially the Black mother mortality rates. So we talk a lot about some incredible work that people are doing to try to curb that.
Let’s talk about Marina. Marina Gerner is an award-winning financial journalist and adjunct professor of culture and commerce at NYU Stern School of Business on the London campus. Her work has been published in The Economist’s 1843, The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, Financial Times, WIRED Magazine, the Times Literary Supplement, Standpoint, and The Jewish Chronicle. She has received a book grant from the prestigious Alfred P. Sloan Foundation for this book, and she’s based in London. This is a really great episode to listen to that’s really informative, really, really interesting, and is a great one to share with friends in order to spur some conversations. So without further ado, let’s go ahead and get into it. But first a word from our sponsors. I am so happy to have you. Where are you coming from? What city do you live in?
Marina Gerner:
Thank you so much. I’m based in London.
Tori Dunlap:
Nice. I was just there. My partner’s family is English, so we were in Chiswick and Richmond, which is beautiful. Yeah, I went through Kew Gardens, absolute beautiful-
Marina Gerner:
Oh, lovely. Gorgeous, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I was like, “Oh my gosh, is this where I want to get married?” And then I was talking to his English family and they’re like, “That’ll cost about $80,000.” Like not even joking.
Marina Gerner:
It doesn’t have to. Weirdly enough, I have looked into this and they have different parts in Kew Gardens.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that you know. Okay, so it’s not… 80,000 is on the higher end.
Marina Gerner:
Yes, it is. They have some smaller venues. They have different sizes of venues there.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, it’s beautiful. I was just like, “Oh, I imagine a lot of people get married here.” And they’re like, “Yeah, but if you want certain areas, it’s going to cost you London money.” And I was like, “Got it. Okay.”
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, but there are definitely a few different options there. And yeah, it depends on how big a wedding you want, I guess.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Yeah, it was beautiful. Thanks for being on the show. I want to start… Before we talk about your work now, you started your career as a financial journalist. How did you find your way into that?
Marina Gerner:
Yes, that’s right. I’ve been a journalist for over a decade at this point, and I actually started out by writing about books and arts, and then I started writing about finance and health and technology. So a friend of mine always jokes that I’m a Renaissance woman for the modern age because I cover such a random, very broad range of topics. And personal finance is something I wrote about for many years, and I think it’s so powerful to write and talk about money. And this is something you often say on your podcast. It’s personal, but it’s also societal, right? It shows us our priorities, our emotions, but it also shows us what society values and personal finance and money can be very overwhelming for people. It can be scary for people. It’s also still a taboo topic. And so that’s not too dissimilar from vaginas. People are scared of vaginas. It’s a taboo topic, but when people get comfortable and advocate for themselves, it can be very powerful.
Tori Dunlap:
I was literally going to transition into, speaking of taboo topics, your book is called the Vagina Business. So what kicked off your curiosity into women’s health research and funding?
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, I’ll tell you all about it. It began with a bra. So at the time I was a journalist covering technology and health. And I was at this conference a few years back where I learned something that most people still don’t know, which is, if I ask you to imagine a person who’s having a heart attack, who do you picture? You can picture someone… Or I can tell you what most people say.
Tori Dunlap:
I picture a man.
Marina Gerner:
Exactly. You picture a man, it’s an old man. Usually he’s clutching his chest. He feels pressure there. There’s a pain radiating down his left-hand side, and those are the symptoms we typically think of. It’s what we tend to see in movies, but those are typically male symptoms, so they’re not typically female symptoms. And we know much less about how to spot heart health issues in women. So as a result of that, women are 50% more likely than men to be given a wrong diagnosis after heart attack. And that’s because medical research has focused on the male body, and our knowledge is still shaped by that. So I was amazed to learn that. And as a journalist, I was also amazed to come across a company called BloomerTech that has created the coolest thing. They’ve created a smart bra that uses ECG technology, that can help women who are at risk monitor their heart health.
And I was amazed because not only is there a problem, but there’s also a solution. And I strongly felt that the world needed to know about this. I wanted to write the story of the smart bra, and I saw the founder at a conference. I was in one of those balcony seats at the top above a stage, and I ran downstairs during the lunch break to catch the startup founder. I asked for her business card and I said, “I’m going to write about you.” And then I pitched all of my editors who usually say yes to my stories, and nobody was replying. There was just tumbleweed in my inbox. And people had this impression that it was a bit niche. They didn’t quite get what it was about, you know, “A smart bra, for what?” And then COVID happened. This was pre-COVID. And I think during COVID, a few things shifted in the world of health.
And if you think back to the start of COVID, I don’t know if you remember this, but men had worse symptoms initially. So nowadays women are more likely to have long term COVID, but initially men had worse symptoms. So if you wanted to be cynical, you could say people started to pay attention to sex differences because men were more affected. And I managed to write the story about the smart bra for The Guardian, and the story came out, and I was invited to chair a panel at the first ever FemTech conference organized by Women of Wearables. My panel was early on in the morning, and I just ended up staying for the whole day. I was really fascinated. I kept learning more and more, not just about technology, but about my own body. And you think that you know about your body, but in reality there’s just so much we don’t know and there’s so much to learn. So I was completely hooked by that.
I was in my early thirties at the time, and I knew I wanted to have children soon, and I also knew that 9 in 10 first time mothers experience a birth injury. So that’s something I was aware of, even though that’s also a taboo topic. Women talk about it in hushed voices who’ve already given birth, like, “Oh, and then by the way,” but as a journalist, I was looking for solutions once again. And I came across an innovative startup in California that’s creating a dilator, so a device that could potentially help us prevent birth injuries and make birth easier and faster if it makes it through clinical trials. It’s developed by Materna. And when I researched the space, I realized that the last big innovation in the standard of care of birth was the epidural, which was popularized in the 1950s, which just tells you everything.
There’s no other area of technology where we say, “Oh, look at this floppy disk. It’s the most cutting edge thing we have.” But in birth, that’s basically what we do. And many of my friends were giving birth at the time, and they were describing to me that doctors were using devices that looked like salad forks and toilet plungers, also known as the forceps and vacuum delivery. So I was surprised to hear all of this and really fascinated by it. And I wondered, why haven’t we had hundreds of new creations in this space over the last decades?
And I spoke to startup founders in this space, and I heard again and again that it’s very hard to raise money for anything to do with vaginas. Because investors, as one of them said, “Investors don’t want to talk about vaginas in their Monday morning partner meetings, so they don’t want to invest in companies that have a vagina centric invention.” And I was so angry to learn that the reason we don’t get the innovation that we want and deserve is because a bunch of guys basically is embarrassed to talk about vaginas. So I wrote this story for WIRED Magazine called “We Need to Talk About Investors Problem with Vaginas.” And the story went viral, and then I went from there.
Tori Dunlap:
I usually… It’s not this early that I’m frustrated, but I’m already frustrated. Even, I think, regardless… And we’ll talk, you know, as the episode about reproductive health and women’s health. But I am angel investing now in women entrepreneurs, and she’s been a previous guest to the show, Michelle. They have this great company called Elavi, that is like protein brownies and like Nutella dupes, but it’s healthier ingredients, and I love it, and it’s great. And she has literally told me, she’ll walk in to these conversations and they’ll say, “Oh yeah, women care about this.” And they’ll go, “Well, that’s a niche thing.” Or my co-creator of an app we created to help women invest called Treasury, where we’ve built our stock market school. My friend Elias has been in… He’s a man, and he’s been in pitch meetings and they’re like, “Oh, you’re really just focused on women.” And he’s like, “Yeah, because they’re an under-served population and they’re 55% of the population.” And that’s a niche topic.
Marina Gerner:
Yes, exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
Because the people in power believe and who are controlling the money believe that anything to do with women is niche because it’s not affecting them directly.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, it’s incredible. As you say, over 50% of the population can’t possibly be niche.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep, and that makes the majority of the spending decisions. Which leads me to a straight quote from the description of your book, quote, “Women make over 80% of healthcare decisions in everyday life, yet only 4% of all medical research and development is focused on women’s health issues.” So let’s talk about it. What are some examples of this? You were giving the example of birth. I have so many friends who have recently been diagnosed with PCOS or endometriosis because none of that has been well researched and it took years for them to get a diagnosis. What other examples are we seeing where women are making the majority of the decisions yet there’s so much to be desired in terms of support.
Marina Gerner:
Absolutely. And I love the frustration in your voice, and I promise we’ll go to motivation as well into the inspiring part. So yes, we make 80% of healthcare decisions for our children, for our partners, and for our parents. So we make most of the appointments, we make most of the purchasing decisions, and we’re also much more likely to be caregivers, when someone falls ill. We’re also more likely to put ourselves last, which is another problem. But at the same time, we exist within a system that was basically designed by men and for men. So there’s a cost to being a woman in this system, just like we pay more for consumer products like razors through the pink tax. We pay the price with our health in this case. So for instance, across 770 types of diseases, women are diagnosed on average four years later than men.
And a delayed diagnosis means women are more likely to suffer pain and complications. Out of 10 medications withdrawn from the market, eight negatively affected women. We are nearly twice as likely to experience severe side effects from drugs. And that’s because the way we metabolize drugs is different because we have a different body size, a different fat distribution and so on. And that’s why, for example, the sleeping pill Ambien was cut in half for women, but it only happened after several women had had car accidents because they fell asleep at the wheel. So that’s why it’s hugely important for us to include women in clinical research and in product development.
Tori Dunlap:
Have you listened to the retrievals? Have you listened to this podcast?
Marina Gerner:
No, I haven’t.
Tori Dunlap:
Have you heard of… Oh, this is like my third time, I’ve brought up the retrievals on this show. For anybody who has not listened, and it sounds like you’re one of them, please do. It’s a hard listen, but it’s incredible. At Yale, at Yale’s hospital, women were going through egg retrievals and-
Marina Gerner:
Oh, yes, I know the story. Yes, go on, go on. It’s so important.
Tori Dunlap:
There was a nurse who was stealing the fentanyl, which is the painkiller that you’re given to deal with this procedure. And she was stealing the fentanyl and giving, we don’t even know how many women, hundreds of women just water or saline. And most of the women, I think almost all of them were saying, “I’m in pain, I’m in pain.” Because the rest of the nurses, of course didn’t know, “Hey, this is the maximum fentanyl dose,” and they were proceeding with the procedure anyway, because it was such a high stakes thing. You ovulate, you have sometimes one shot at that particular period of time. It also costs 15,000, $20,000 to get an egg. And a lot of people just… They desperately want a child. And it’s a larger conversation, not just about women’s health, but women’s pain and how we don’t take women seriously.
Marina Gerner:
Yes, absolutely.
Tori Dunlap:
I was just like… I knew it obviously because we’ve been having these conversations, but that for me was the perfect example. IUD insertion is another one where the fact that it’s just, “Take an ibuprofen, suck it up,” it’s fucking nuts to me. It’s crazy to me.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, absolutely is. Yeah, I know the story. I just haven’t listened to the podcast, but it’s just unbelievable. It’s such a deep-seated issue that we have basically normalized female pain, whether it’s IUDs or childbirth or endometriosis. Society just shrugs and says, “Welcome to being a woman,” instead of coming up with better solutions. So that’s something I really wanted to address in the book by showing that there can be a different way. It doesn’t have to be this way. We can come up with better solutions and things are beginning to shift. I think the CDC recently released new guidelines on pain relief, physicians should be offering for IUD insertion, for example. So things are slowly beginning to change.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and you mentioned that… I mean, the reason behind all of this is not shocking. It’s the people who have the money and the power do not believe this information or this knowledge useful. So the patriarchy, men in power have not thought beyond themselves. So the money and the research and the focus on problems that don’t affect them, it hasn’t been there. So you were just mentioning too about clinical trials of like, women are often not the participants in clinical trials or research. Why is that?
Marina Gerner:
Exactly. So historically, women have been excluded and women and people of color were only officially included in 1993. There are many reasons for… I know it’s… Yeah, it’s unbelievable. Yeah. There are many reasons for the exclusion of women historically, one, and that’s the most understandable one, was that it was to protect us in case we’re pregnant. But there was also an underlying assumption that women are basically just smaller versions of men outside of our reproductive system, that basically anything that works for men would also work for women, which we just know is not the case. I also think that it was simply convenient and cheaper to exclude women because our hormones can interfere with neat study results. So including women continues to be inconvenient to this day. And I cite a study by Professor Nicole Wojtowicz who shows that female mice continue to be excluded as well in much earlier forms of research. And she has shown me actual quotes from other researchers saying why they excluded female mice. So one quote is, “Oh, you know, their cages were harder to clean, so we excluded them.”
So people come up with lots of creative excuses, which is why we have to mandate inclusion. And there have to be consequences as well. If you are not including female mice, why is that the case? You have to really explain it. The other thing is that there are certain barriers that women are just more likely to face, like child care, for example, if you want to get more women into clinical research, can you arrange child care for them? Can you make sure that the research can be done remotely, for example? So the smart bra that I mentioned, that’s actually something they’re doing because you can wear the bra remotely and the bra can collect your heart health data. So that’s one way of filling that particular gap that we have.
But it’s still too often the case that female bodies are an afterthought. As you say, I write this newsletter on Substack about women’s health innovation, and a few days ago I wrote about Ozempic. There have been these reports that women are having surprise pregnancies even when they’re on the pill or having fertility issues. So I looked into it, “Can Ozempic get you pregnant?” And there are plausible explanations as to why it does boost fertility, but we don’t have any conclusive research yet. So we have this drug that 1 in 8 Americans has taken, and whether it can get you pregnant or not is just an afterthought.
Tori Dunlap:
I want to continue talking about the systemic reasons for this, but I also want to briefly touch selfishly. I’ve only started to realize, I think in the past couple of years, how little I know about my own body, and especially as a woman. I don’t think I heard the words luteal phase until two years ago. And understanding of how my body’s different, how my emotions are different even during my menstrual cycle. Obviously it’s because of the taboo. Like anything relating to the vagina, to menstruation, to any of this is going to be taboo. And I think that’s part of the reason why. What else is at play here for why women know so little about our vaginas, about our reproductive health, about our menstruation?
Marina Gerner:
Yeah. Two other examples that I think are similar is the luteal phase is a really good one. Cervical mucus is another one. Most people don’t know that it changes throughout your cycle to adjust to ovulation, basically. So it keeps sperm out and then it lets them swim through, and it’s quite magical in that way. Or the other thing is that we have this idea of a 28-day menstrual cycle, but it’s not actually 28 days for the vast majority of women. It’s only 28 days for I think 16% or 13%.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I’ve heard around 20. So yeah, I think that… Yeah, the vast majority, some people are 32, some people are 22, some people are somewhere in between that or above that. Yeah. But yeah, you heard 28 days, or even for me it was a month. Like a month is your menstrual cycle.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, exactly. So I think you have the taboo. It’s also not something that’s passed down the generations. So one of the entrepreneurs I was interviewing Rob Perkins, the founder of OMGYES. He said, “Every generation has to rediscover the same things about female pleasure again and again.” And then Gloria Kolb, the founder of Elidah, said to me that she didn’t know her mother had urinary incontinence, and she only found out after she had issues herself. And she asked her mother, “Why didn’t you tell me about it?” And she said, “Well, you just don’t talk about it, it’s just not something you talk about.” So it’s not something that’s typically passed down the generations with the family heirlooms, although in some cases it absolutely can be. And my mother was always very good at talking about things. So I’m very, very lucky in that way.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, I think it’s… There’s so many common themes to this show every single time we do an episode, it’s the shame. We feel shame about our own bodies. We feel shame about our periods. We hide tampons up our sleeves as we walk to go to the bathroom during dinner. We won’t talk about discharge. We won’t talk about whether or not we’re orgasming. We won’t talk about all of these things because we believe, and we are told very early on as girls and women, that our bodies are shameful.
Marina Gerner:
Exactly. It doesn’t even have a name. People use euphemisms for vaginas a lot of the time. Right?
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Or period, time of the month, right? You won’t say period, you’ll go, “Aunt Flo in town,” or whatever. Yeah.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, exactly. There is so much shame, and we have to distinguish between privacy and shame. Someone’s period can be a private matter. But-
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Marina Gerner:
… if you have shame getting in the way of funding innovation, that is a huge issue. If you have shame getting in the way of women seeing vagina at the doctor’s office, again, that’s a huge issue. And all these parts of shame are interconnected as well. So there’s a study I quote where if you pull up one strand of shame, you basically pull up a whole web because they’re all interconnected. Women who are embarrassed to buy tampons are also embarrassed by other women who breastfeed in public. And sadly, these women are also worse at advocating for themselves when it comes to sexual pleasure, for example.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and not shockingly, we know that it’s not completely a research problem. It’s also a money problem because only 4.3% of the total venture capital invested in health focused companies goes to women’s health companies. And of course, this is a larger conversation of funding in general for women founded or women focused companies. Why is this such a big discrepancy? I mean, other than patriarchy, obviously, and is there anything to be done about it?
Marina Gerner:
Yes. Well, it is the patriarchy. I think the first step to be done is that we do need to fill the research gap because ventures are often based on existing research. So companies will take academic research and commercialize it. And we are in a situation where we have five times more studies on erectile dysfunction than PMS, even though only 19% of men have erectile dysfunction, and 90% of women report symptoms of PMS. So we need to change that balance.
Tori Dunlap:
If you’re an audio only listener, I’m having a tantrum. I’m just, “Oh, I’m so angry.”
Marina Gerner:
Yeah. The other issue is that VC investors are often previous founders, former founders.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Marina Gerner:
But we still only have about 20% of female founders in this space. And the vast majority of VC investors are men, which means they can’t relate to the problem. They don’t have skin in the game quite literally when it comes to periods, menopause, fertility, and so on. And then the other thing is that we think people make financial decisions rationally, but they don’t. And you know this, and I’m sure your audience knows this as well. So investors are not immune to this either. They put money into products that they want to use themselves. So I can tell you, I was at a press dinner once where journalists meet big investors, and there was a guy next to me who had invested in a dog food company. And he was talking about how great this dog food company was and how much people love their pets, so they’ll always spend money on their pets.
And then he got up to go to the bathroom and his colleague turns to me and says, “You know ever since he got a puppy, he’s been banging on about this dog food company.” So you can see just how personal people’s interests are in what they invest in. And with women’s health, we have a problem that we can call the When Harry Met Sally problem, which is that investors will say, “Oh, I didn’t know this was an issue. Let me go home and ask my wife.” And women are different if their wife doesn’t have a particular experience or a particular issue… First of all, she may not be sharing that with them.
Tori Dunlap:
She may not know it as well. That’s back to the lack of research and the lack of taking women seriously. She might not have any idea.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, exactly. She may not even know what she doesn’t know. She may not even be looking for a solution. She may be suffering in silence. But also, the other point is that you wouldn’t typically base an investment decision on the opinion of one person. You would look at the market. So there’s a special obstacle that founders encounter, which is that they have to be relatable or their products have to be relatable. But when an investor puts money into a space company, it’s not like they say, “Oh, let me go and ask an astronaut.” So what can be done? We need more women who need to go into investing. And you are doing that work.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m trying to.
Marina Gerner:
You are getting women into investing and you are spreading financial literacy. So we also need more men in this space who have put billions of dollars into crypto and into AI, which… Do they understand that? Probably not. So instead of saying, “I don’t understand women’s health,” get an advisor, hire a gynecologist to advise you, there are ways of learning about the topic.
Tori Dunlap:
And don’t let your ego convince you to spend hundreds of millions of dollars doing a fun little circle around the Earth, looking at you Bezos and Elon Musk. Okay. So Seattle based entrepreneur that you featured. I’m from Seattle, we got a rep. Tell me about what she learned when she started pitching her product to rooms of men, and what was her product?
Marina Gerner:
Yes, you mean Colette Courtion, and her company is called Joylux. And it’s a device that’s focused on vaginal dryness and other menopause related symptoms. So she was pitching her company, which is focused on vaginal health to a room full of men. And as a result of that, they turned the color of beetroot and they just awkwardly shuffled their papers and they couldn’t relate. So what she ended up doing was she hired a guy as her chief financial officer, and I looked him up. He’s probably in his early sixties. He has a salt and pepper beard, he’s the golden ticket. So she quite literally hired herself a beard, and she told me that’s what turned the ship for her, because investors were able to relate and take the company seriously.
Tori Dunlap:
I will often send emails from my assistant, Scott. Scott’s not a real person. Scott is me.
Marina Gerner:
You figured it out.
Tori Dunlap:
Kailyn and I, who’s my actual assistant, often joke that maybe Scott should be sending more emails because Scott gets a different response than I do.
Marina Gerner:
Wow.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. So to jump off that story, your book pointed to some research that highlighted the fact that sometimes business teams of mixed genders perform better. Makes sense, but only when the CEO is a man. Talk to me about that.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, that’s right. So that’s research done by Professor Maya Ackerman. She analyzed 48,000 companies and their founders to figure out why they raised money. Is it because the founder went to a prestigious university? Is it because the founder was a serial entrepreneur or because they’ve had big exits in the past where they’ve sold previous companies? And she found out, nope, the most important reason for why they raised money was that they were guys. So I think it comes down to the perception that people have of what an entrepreneur looks like. It’s someone who wears a black turtleneck and has a deep voice. So when you picture such a person, it’s undoubtedly a guy. And women are more likely to raise money in fields that are considered gender congruent, like fashion and beauty. And at the same time, we face a lack of fit bias in male dominated fields like engineering and tech.
So society wants us to look good, but it’s less interested in whether we feel well. And when it comes to this lack of fit bias, what’s telling is that men are not pigeonholed in the same way. So consumers, for example, will welcome cupcakes that were made by men with open arms. But when it comes to craft beer made by women, they’re a bit like, “Hmm,” and the example in women’s health is, for instance, the biggest period app is Flo Health. They became a unicorn recently, but they were founded by a bunch of guys, and people don’t really mind. Whereas when a woman runs a condom company, that’s a different story.
Tori Dunlap:
I got to keep my groaning to a minimum and keep moving. Okay. So one of the questions I have for you, when women are in professional encounters, I think we’re made to prove instead of pitch, how does this show up in this world of VC and entrepreneurship? And we’ve kind of already alluded to this, like it’s not pitching the company and showcasing the potential or the sales. It’s like proving that this is actually needed.
Marina Gerner:
Yes, exactly. So there’s research done by Dana Kanze where she found out that the questions that investors ask of female and male entrepreneurs are wildly different. So men are much more likely to be asked, “What’s your aspiration?” “What does success look like?” “Where do you want to get to?” Whereas women are asked, “How do you prevent people from gaming your game?” And, “Can you tell us a bit about the competitive environment?” So of course, your business is cast in a more positive light when you can talk about your vision and when you can big yourself up and talk about your potential for success, as opposed to talking about your competition. So that is a well-known bias that female founders face.
And I think what’s interesting about this tendency is that it does not just apply to male investors, it’s equally true for female investors. So female investors also ask those questions in those different ways. I think that’s an important point because women are not inherently better or more moral or less sexist all the time. Because it comes down to the culture that we live in and the gender norms that we all share and uphold.
Tori Dunlap:
How do we fix it? This is always the question that I end up asking on the show besides dismantling the patriarchy. But how do we start fixing all of these problems, research and access to money, and also our own individual health and advocating for it and knowing we should advocate for it?
Marina Gerner:
So I think the femtech community has done a great job of galvanizing people around these issues. It has brought together investors, entrepreneurs, and researchers, and people have really come together around this term. So femtech stands for female technology, and I think it’s a really useful term because people have used it to create communities and to set up conferences. And to run sessions on how to raise money, on how to do this research. And I think it really has to be a concerted effort. It can’t just be researchers or just entrepreneurs. It has to be a whole group of people coming together from different places. And for me, the definition of femtech is innovation that moves women’s health forward. So it’s often digitally enabled, but not always. So people usually talk about period underwear as being femtech as well, or contraceptives. So things that are not necessarily tech, and perhaps on the more medical side, in some cases.
And I should also say that people misuse the term femtech. So some people think that femtech simply refers to companies run by women, but that’s not the case. Even though 80% of femtech companies are run by women. Some people use the term to refer to beauty products, for example. And you know, I like lipstick, but it doesn’t really advance our health. Other people use it to refer to hair removal and even weight loss products, and that’s just nonsense. So that’s completely not what we’re looking for here. And I think we also need to distinguish between femtech and what I call scam tech. So products that don’t actually work, products that are snake oil, products that claim to be femtech, but are absolutely not.
Tori Dunlap:
I think one of the common things that I realized in research for my book as well as just talking with women is the things that are stereotypically feminine. You’re talking now, lipstick, are the frivolous things that we’re shamed about at a personal level for spending money on. Yet it seems like that’s the only place that male VCs want to put their money. Does that make sense?
Marina Gerner:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s not an actual issues. It’s like, “Oh, girly girls. The girls just want cute makeup and they just want cute clothes, and that’s what we’re going to fund.”
Marina Gerner:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
And I don’t know, I feel like it’s such a… Of course, it’s an oversimplification, but it’s ironically, the money that’s going into those things are the very things that we then are shamed for buying.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, that’s a really good point. And I think, again, it’s the difference between looking good and feeling well, but then also buying lipstick. It can definitely brighten up your day.
Tori Dunlap:
Sure. But I think maybe the idea too is it’s like we need to… I don’t know how… This might sound too conspiracy theory, but honestly, the more I’ve realized, the more I think it’s true, is maybe the whole thing is keeping women sick. Or not necessarily an intentional version of that, of like, “Wahahaha, we’re going to keep women sick.” But I think it comes down to that if you know that women are struggling, that their health is failing, that there’s not a support for this and you’re not doing anything about it. Women spend more money trying to fix problems that healthcare, better healthcare could solve. Like me putting concealer under my eyes because I’m not getting a good night’s sleep because something else is going on. I’m spending money trying to fix problems that should be fixed with actual healthcare.
Marina Gerner:
Absolutely. Yeah, that’s 100% true. And it is complete negligence and systemic failure and to the point of crisis in certain areas like maternal mortality and morbidity, for example.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
And I mean, we would be remiss if we didn’t talk about… Of course, all women are being affected, but you mentioned mortality and childbirth, like women of color. So it’s not just enough to test and to do research for women generally, but also understanding indigenous women are going to react differently than a White woman will. So maybe talk to me a bit about that and what femtech is doing in order to bridge that gap as well.
Marina Gerner:
Absolutely. I have found femtech to be a very diverse community that’s very aware of these issues, and we know that different ethnicities react differently to menopause symptoms. For example, when it comes to hot flashes or when it comes to bone health, there are differences across different groups. And again, there is some research that is coming out on those differences. But in maternal health, for example, we need to analyse women in much more personalized ways. So for example, how long does the first stage of labor take across ethnicities? Because if we have a system that treats everyone the same, we’re pushing women into interventions or into categories that are just not right for them based on their bodies.
Tori Dunlap:
One question that I have that I think is really fascinating, you highlight that women’s health is often seen as inherently sexual versus it having sexual health implications. Again, I think this is back to taboo, but vagina is not seen as a woman’s body part, it is seen as a sexual organ. So is that part of the problem here of why women’s health, especially women’s reproductive health, is not as well researched as it should be?
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, I think they’re two sides of the same coin. Our sexual power is one side, and the other side is motherhood, and our power to give life, for example. And I don’t think it’s so much about changing the narrative from sexual to having sexual health implications, but it’s much more about accepting it. We are sexual beings, and that is part of our overall health. So even the World Health Organization has recently said that good sexual health is fundamental to overall health, so it’s just about accepting that. But of course, we’re still far from that. So there’s a lot of censorship on social media. For example, one ad by the company, Rosie, for instance, about sex education was banned because it was deemed too political. And then Colette Courtion told me that her company can’t use the word vagina on Facebook. So instead they say, “This is for your V.” And here I was thinking, V is for vendetta. So while we have female sexual health that’s being banned on Meta, erectile dysfunction ads still proudly bounce through the algorithm. So there’s a double standard always.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Do you know who Molly Baz is?
Marina Gerner:
Nope.
Tori Dunlap:
She’s a chef. She worked at Bon Appétit for many years and then has written a couple of cookbooks. She’s incredible. And she co-founded a lactation cookie. And about six months ago maybe, maybe longer than that, she had an ad in Times Square of her… I don’t think it was even breastfeeding, but there was no… I don’t think there was a nipple exposed. There was none of that, which even if there was big whoop. But they took the ad down and it was a whole thing, and they ended up getting the ad back up. But perfect example of we’re just uncomfortable with women’s bodies in general, but we’re specifically uncomfortable with vaginas, breasts, anything that the media or the patriarchy has sexualized as opposed to what the actual organs are there for, which is reproduction and nutrition.
Marina Gerner:
Exactly. They’re just body parts. Yes. When you said lactation cookie, I was like, “Oh, yeah, that does ring a bell.” Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. I’m sure you saw it. It was all over the internet.
Marina Gerner:
Yes. Yeah, I did.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. And I think about… I just was at the DNC last week and we interviewed Alexis McGill Johnson, who’s the CEO of Planned Parenthood. And one thing that she is so focused on, and that I think you would probably echo is like, One individual act that we can take is saying those words out loud. Saying the word abortion, saying the word vagina, saying the word, “I’m on my period,” as opposed to, “Yeah, that’s my time of the month” or whatever. Like being very open of like, “This is what it is,” as opposed to feeling that shame and then either not talking about it at all, not saying it at all, or using a euphemism.
Marina Gerner:
Yes, I agree 100%. And that’s why it was so important for me to have the word vagina-
Tori Dunlap:
Vagina in your book, yeah.
Marina Gerner:
… on the cover of the book. And it has not been easy. I’ve faced many obstacles with that title. When we went out to sell the book, several publishers said to me, “Oh, we love the book, but are you sure about the title?” And then later on I was told, “If you keep the title, independent bookstores may not promote it. They may not put it on display.” I’ve also had a venue tell me they can’t host my book launch.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, I had another author who I asked for a blurb, tell me she feels uncomfortable with the title, so she won’t give a blurb. And my current publisher, they were open to it, but they also said, “Well, maybe you could come up with some alternative titles.” So I called two of my best friends and we had a brainstorm, and we came up with 16 alternative titles. All those titles were tested on the target audience of the book. And guess which title won?
Tori Dunlap:
The Vagina Business.
Marina Gerner:
Exactly. Not the euphemisms, The Vagina Business won.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s almost like the people who are actually benefiting are not the people in power, and the people who actually want to talk about these issues are willing to talk about them in a transparent way.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, exactly. And we are sitting here on your podcast talking about vaginas, so we are doing that work. But I’m sure there are many others who have not invited me onto their podcast because the word vagina is in the title rather than the title being like, “When Women are Well.”
Tori Dunlap:
And I imagine… Well, I’ll ask, I won’t assume, how many men have welcomed you on their shows?
Marina Gerner:
I think one so far. I had to think about that because I was like, “No, that was a woman, that was a woman, that was woman.”
Tori Dunlap:
Now, I mean, a case could be made the target audience of most women-based podcasts is other women, and that’s who would need it. But come on, men need to know about this just as much as women. Okay, I digress.
Marina Gerner:
Absolutely. And those men who… There are men as well who have helped me on this journey.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, of course.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah. One of my publicists is a guy, and-
Tori Dunlap:
We love men, but we also need men vocally supporting the kind of conversations we want to have. Yeah. You talked to a hundred entrepreneurs about women’s health. What were some of the most exciting products you discovered or innovations that you discovered?
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, there’s so many. So we’ve already spoken about the smart bra and about the birth dilator that can help us prevent injuries. I also spoke to the founders of Lioness, which is a vibrator that measures your pelvic floor contractions and it can then map your orgasm on an app. I spoke to the founders of Bump’n, which is the first sex toy designed for disabled people. There’s also Osteoboost, a belt that helps you retain bone mass density in menopause. There is Coroflo, which is a nipple shield that can help you measure how much milk your baby is getting, and breast pumps in general. The modern breast pump that is hands-free and quiet and easy to use is just such a blessing. I’m breastfeeding at the moment, and it’s my breast pump buys me freedom. What else? There’s also Bloomlife, which is a wearable device that can do the non-stress test remotely.
So for high-risk pregnancies, that’s a test you need to do quite frequently. And for that, you’d still go into the hospital and spend a lot of time waiting and so on, when in reality, that test can be done remotely. And that’s often the promise of wearable devices for example. I’ve also written about completely new contraceptives that are not hormonal. So there’s one called [inaudible 00:50:44] for example, it looks like something you’d wash your laundry with. It’s a little capsule, and what it does is it thickens your cervical mucus, which we’ve spoken about before, so that sperm can’t swim through. And those are just a few of the examples. In the book. I cover many, many more.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m literally opening new tabs and googling all of these because I’m excited to learn more. So in addition to all of the entrepreneurs you’re highlighting in the book, can you tell me about some of the research that’s coming out as well that we can focus on or support?
Marina Gerner:
Yeah, absolutely. I came across these three professors who are based in Georgia, Atlanta, and they call themselves the Synergistic Sisters in Science, and they focus on Black maternal health. So they’re working on creating an app that’s going to be used for research, but that will also provide women in rural areas with resources and peer support. So that’s an app I’m really excited about in terms of improving those statistics in the US.
Tori Dunlap:
For somebody listening who maybe wants to bring an idea to life or who is working to build something or support something that sit from like women’s health space, what can they do to get the attention of investors?
Marina Gerner:
So I think the first thing is to find a pressing unmet need, and there are many of those as we’ve discussed. I have a whole chapter on how to identify an unmet need and how to make the case for it. So you need to make sure it’s an actual problem, and then you need to substantiate it with data. So how many women are affected by it? What are the alternatives? What’s currently on the market? And then when you’re thinking about your solution, you have to think about in what way is what you are developing better or more convenient or more affordable. And then you have to think about the business case. So who’s going to pay for it and why? Is it going to be the consumer? Is it going to be insurance, the healthcare system? And then something else that’s really important is to bring scientists on board, bring healthcare professionals on board so that you have a really well-rounded and diverse team of people to support you.
Tori Dunlap:
For any woman listening who feels like their health has not been taken seriously, what do you have to say to them?
Marina Gerner:
Well, I would say, you’re not alone. Medical gaslighting is very common. This idea of it’s all in your head and, “Oh, this is going to hurt, that’s very common.” And you need to… Well, of course the system has to change, but while the system is changing, women need to advocate for themselves. So don’t be afraid to ask questions. Don’t be afraid to ask, “Has this drug that you are recommending to me, has it been tested on women like me? What are the potential side effects?” Don’t think you need to put up with side effects. Ask, what’s the alternative? When you’re having an IUD insertion or anything else, ask for pain relief. You can also insert the speculum yourself, for example. There are many adjustments you can make in a medical situation that people wouldn’t necessarily know about, but you can certainly ask to be treated in certain ways.
Tori Dunlap:
I’ll say from my personal experience, I don’t weigh myself, and I have not done that for many years. So you can say at the doctor, “I would not like to be weighed.” And if they make you get on the scale, you get on backwards and you say, “I’m going to get on backwards, and I ask that you don’t announce it out loud.” And that’s what I’ve done for years because it’s not helpful information for me. It’s not actually pertinent to make health decisions based on my weight. So that’s one way that I have advocated for myself and honestly prevented information because it’s not information that is helpful to me.
So that’s one very micro thing that I’ve started doing personally that has made a big impact, and I’ve never been met with resistance, and that’s a testament to the healthcare providers. But yeah, I think that that’s one thing that I’ve done that has really made my experience getting healthcare a lot better.
Marina Gerner:
Great.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you for being here. Thank you for your work. I’m so excited to read your book. I’m so angry at everything that’s going on, and I’m excited for this book to tell me more about how I can work to fix it. So tell me about your book. Tell me where we can find more about you?
Marina Gerner:
And let me say, the problems are only about the first 20% of the book, the remaining 80% are the solutions.
Tori Dunlap:
Yay! We love that. I just get angry on this show and I’m just like, “Oh, there’s so much to do. There’s so much work to do.” So I love that.
Marina Gerner:
Yeah. Yeah, because the reality is so many people are not even aware of the problem. So you have to talk about the problem first before you can address the solutions. But it really is a book of solutions. I profile all of these incredible entrepreneurs and researchers and inventors who are creating new things that are vagina centric. And the book is called The Vagina Business: The Innovative Breakthroughs that Could Change Everything in Women’s Health. You can find it everywhere where books are sold. You can also find me on substack@marinagerner.substack.com, where I write about news stories in women’s health. You can find me on Instagram as well, and all other social media platforms.
And you know something that people have been saying to me recently who have read the book is that they don’t typically highlight something in a hardcover, but they have been highlighting things. So I want to give you listeners that permission. You are allowed to highlight things in my book. If there’s something that you want to come back to or something that has really inspired you, I always love seeing what people highlights they’re inspired by. If you post about it, feel free to tag me, I love seeing that kind of thing.
Tori Dunlap:
I love it. Thank you for being here, Marina.
Marina Gerner:
Thank you for having me. It’s been a real pleasure.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much to Marina for joining us. You can get her book The Vagina Business wherever you get your books, and we appreciate her being on the show. As always, financial feminists, if you enjoy the show, we appreciate you leaving a review, we appreciate you telling your friends. If you haven’t already hit subscribe, you can do that. And we also hear from you all the time that if you have been listening to the show for a while, there’s other resources out there that we provide. We have 2 million followers on Instagram, so you can go to herfirst100K on Instagram or even Financial Feminist podcast and follow us there. I also have a book called Financial Feminist. It is not a repeat of this podcast. It has a bunch of new information and homework assignments and really, really helpful journal prompts and step-by-step information on how to get your financial shit together.
So Financial Feminist, my book is available wherever you get your books. And I’m going to shamelessly plug, because I think this Kristen, comes out before the holidays is a great holiday gift. You can also get a signed copy from a Seattle bookstore that ships nationwide. You can go to financialfeministbook.com to get a signed copy that makes a perfect holiday gift. We really appreciate the support. All right, hang in there. Have a great holiday season. Stay safe. We’ll see you back here very soon. Goodbye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant, research by Sarah Sciortino, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf, marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew.
Special thanks to our team at Her First $100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Sasha Bonnar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Kurronen, Daryl Ann Ingram, and Meghan Walker, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound.
A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, please visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
