What does it take to turn long-standing financial trauma into a sustainable path toward stability and control over your money? In today’s episode, I’m chatting with Dr. Darla Bishop, aka “The FinanSis,” about just that as she takes us through her story of navigating financial and personal trauma. Dr. Darla Bishop shows us that changing your financial story isn’t about quick fixes or hollow advice, but about recognizing deep-rooted fears, making intentional choices, and building a foundation strong enough to support both your dreams and your well-being. Tune in to learn tangible steps to confidently handle debt, access higher education affordably, and build wealth from the ground up.
Whether you’re chipping away at student loans, juggling work and school, or simply seeking more confidence in your financial decisions, this is the episode you’ll replay again and again.
Key takeaways:
Transforming scarcity into strength
- Learn how reframing your survival skills from periods of financial hardship can become your secret weapon. Dr. Bishop shows you that if you know how to get by on little, you already possess the adaptable mindset needed to confidently manage greater sums as you move forward.
Healing financial trauma
- Money baggage is real. By confronting past financial trauma and emotional hang-ups, you can break free from shame, get honest about your habits, and build a healthier relationship with your bank account—no matter what your financial childhood looked like.
Strategic debt management
- Not all debt is created equal. Rather than viewing debt as a personal failing, learn to see it as a potential stepping stone. Dr. Bishop’s advice will help you understand the difference between predatory lending and productive borrowing so you can use debt to move closer to your dreams, not further away.
Making higher education affordable
- From on-campus jobs to departmental scholarships and boldly asking for extra funding, discover actionable tactics to slash tuition costs. You’ll come away understanding that financial aid isn’t a one-time shot—opportunities exist each semester, if you know where to look.
Connecting wealth and well-being
- Your health and finances aren’t separate worlds. Stable finances mean better access to nutritious food, safer neighborhoods, and proactive healthcare—factors that collectively support a longer, happier life. Dr. Bishop reminds us that leveling up your money game can improve your overall wellness.
Building a network that pays dividends
- College isn’t just about lectures and exams—it’s about the people you meet, the communities you join, and the connections you nurture. Dr. Bishop encourages you to embrace the interpersonal wealth you can build in academic environments, using relationships forged now as resources for life.
Notable quotes
“If you tell me the zip code you grew up in, I can predict your life expectancy, credit score, and health outcomes—it’s pretty messed up.”
“We know how to live without money. If we flip those survival skills, they become our superpowers in building wealth.”
“You don’t have to choose between taking care of your family and achieving your own financial goals. You can do both—it just might take longer.”
Episode at-a-glance:
≫ 02:19 Guest intro: Dr. Darla Bishop
≫ 04:58 First money memories and financial trauma
≫ 13:05 Intersection of personal finance and public health
≫ 21:11 Balancing past, present, and future financial needs
≫ 27:15 Addressing financial distrust in black communities
≫ 30:04 The role of debt in financial growth
≫ 31:23 Strategies for minimizing student loan debt
≫ 42:37 Balancing work and education
≫ 45:21 The value of networking in college
≫ 46:46 Spending commandments for financial success
Dr. Darla’s Links:
Website: darlabishop.com
Free email template to ask your school for tuition money: paycheckplaybook.com
How To Afford College E-book: https://howtoaffordeverything.com/product/how-to-afford-college/
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Meet Dr. Darla
Dr. Darla Bishop, affectionately known as the FinanSis, is the Founder of Finansis LLC, a consulting firm based in Michigan, and the author of How To Afford Everything. Her practical advice has empowered her readers and clients to take charge of their financial well-being, granting them the freedom to live life on their own terms.
Transcript:
Dr. Darla Bishop:
That’s why I wrote a book because I got so tired of looking for the knowledge, of looking for the information, and so many books told me I couldn’t take care of my mama. They said, “Do not loan. Do not give. You secure your own situation first.” Which is yes, incredibly important, especially if you are the safety net in the family, in the community, but also it was not realistic or anything that was even in the realm of what I wanted to do to not take care of my mama.
Tori Dunlap:
Hi, Financial Feminist. Welcome to the show. I’m excited to see Wicked just like everybody else. Gosh, these marketing campaigns for these movies, y’all. Wicked started I feel like a year ago. Barbie very similar started a year before it came out. And gosh, who’s ever running these marketing campaigns just needs a chef’s kiss, the millions and billions of dollars that they’re putting into marketing these movies and it works. I’m like, “Yes, great. Perfect. Amazing.” We also just got a Timothee Chalamet magazine cover. He’s on Rolling Stone. I haven’t even read the article yet. I’m saving it as a little treat for myself. I read part of it and I was like, “No, we’re going to save the rest of this.”
He looks great. He goes full method for Bob Dylan. Not surprised, considering he has given interviews in the past that he feels like he hasn’t taken acting seriously enough, which coming from him is hysterical. You don’t care though. You hopefully care because I care. But otherwise, you can read it. It’s great. I’m excited to see you. Welcome back to the show. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. We always really appreciate you just being here in general, and if you want more information as well as a personalized a step-by-step financial plan, you can go to herfirst100k.com/quiz. You’re going to take a few questions.
You’re going to get your money personality, and we’re going to give you a step-by-step plan for you to do whatever it is you’re trying to do with your money, whether that’s saving more of it, paying off debt, starting investing, negotiating your salary. So again, herfirst100k.com/quiz. We also have something very exciting coming in January that I’m going to continue to tease. It is brand new. We’ve been working on it for almost a year. It is very, very, very, very, very exciting. If you want to be the first to know about it, you can go to herfirst100k.com/secret-waitlist and I’ll leave it at that. Today’s episode.
This is one of those beautiful golden little gem of a personal finance episode where we talk about our guest’s financial journey. We talk about navigating financial trauma like straight financial, but also regular trauma. Talking about how she got her shit together and then how she now helps other women do the same. We also talk about how our guest graduated from graduate school debt free, which is crazy, and the strategies she used to do that. We talk about imposter syndrome, the tie between health and personal finance based on her research because she is a doctor and also how to plan for long-term goals. So today’s guest is Dr. Darla Bishop. She’s affectionately known as the FinanSis.
She’s the founder of FinanSis LLC, a consulting firm based in Michigan, and she’s the author of How to Afford Everything. Her practical advice has empowered her readers and clients to take charge of their financial well-being, granting them the freedom to live life on their own term. We’re really excited for this episode. This was so actionable and so interesting. So this is going to be one that you’re going to file away and probably listen to multiple times. So without further ado, let’s go ahead and get into it.
But first a word from our sponsors.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
I’ve been preparing for this moment.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh my gosh. I love it. Where are you at in the world?
Dr. Darla Bishop:
I’m in Lansing, Michigan. Beautiful Lansing, Michigan.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know, have I ever been to Michigan? I have not.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
It’s the state capitol. I mean, Detroit is an amazing city, but unless you’ve had a specific reason all the way from Seattle, you probably would’ve made it this way.
Tori Dunlap:
A member of our team is from Michigan, from Detroit, and so we got to interview a lot of Michiganders, a lot of your congresspeople and a lot of your representatives at the DNC, which was really cool.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
At the DNC. Yay. I went to college with Garland. I saw your interview by the fountain. That was super cute.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s so fun. He was really, really nice. It was very funny. I think he’s so tall and his staff had come up, I think with this idea of, “Let’s get breakfast. So we’re like “Bagels.” But they’re the messiest thing to eat on camera. So it was really funny. We ate a little bit and then talked and then ate a little bit and then tried to make it look like we were kind of eating, but it was just it too messy to do on camera. It was very funny.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
It’s okay. It’s fine.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you for coming on the show. We love asking money experts’ their first money memory, the first time you can remember thinking about money.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
So I’ve been thinking about this one, and thanks to trauma, I’ve got a lot of blockages there, but one memory that was actually a happy memory that came up recently is one of my aunts. So she’s the oldest of the sisters on my mom’s side, and I think it must’ve been my fourth possibly fifth birthday, and I spent the day with her because I was her baby. And she let me buy anything I want at the store, and I remember as soon as we got to her house, I was supposed to sleep over, but I was so excited for all the things she bought me. That I was like, “Well, Auntie Dinah, I’d like to go home now.”
And so I packed up all my stuff super neatly into a pile so she could take me home so I could play with the new stuff at home. And she was so gracious about it, but as an adult and as a teenager, she teases me about, “Remember that time I took you on a shopping spree and then you left my house as soon as you could.”
Tori Dunlap:
You just left immediately.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
But it was a good time.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s very funny. Do you feel like that impacted… Well, maybe not that particular memory, but you said you have a lot of trauma. Do you feel like that impacted how you manage money now or how you view money?
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Absolutely. Another memory that wasn’t as happy that came up, I went to an event at the Detroit Historical Museum, so I grew up in Detroit. And going to a Detroit public school, we always had these fantastic field trips to these beautiful historical places in the city, but I couldn’t always go on them. And so I’d be sick or I’d miss school, I tell my mom I didn’t feel good because asking for the money I knew wasn’t the right thing to do or didn’t feel like it.
And so I remember walking into the Detroit Historical Museum for this beautiful event. People were all dressed up in their glamour, suits and ball gowns, and I was like, “Oh, that’s right. I missed that field trip.” And I tried to remember why I skipped it. I remember self-selecting, it’s not that someone told me I couldn’t go, but I remember feeling like I couldn’t ask to get the permission slip signed.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and also that you even as a kid already knew, “We don’t have the money and I don’t want to be a burden, so I’m not going to ask.”
Dr. Darla Bishop:
And some of that was the messages. On purpose or not, the adults around you give you all types of messages about money. They teach us about money kind of the same way they teach us about sex, right?
Tori Dunlap:
We’ve talked about that on the show before.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Right? One or two things to avoid.
Tori Dunlap:
Dave Ramsey’s abstinence only education.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Pretty much, but they kind of leave the rest up. But you overhear the conversation so you catch pieces of what is going on, what is an option, what maybe is a harder thing to pull off. And so as a kid who is kind of with it, trying to pay attention and be a helpful kid as the firstborn daughter. Then it was one of those things where I self-selected a lot, I realized. And once I was in college and figuring out how to change all of those things because I was surrounded by people who were the same age as me, 17, 18, who had completely different outlooks in relationship with money.
And I remember thinking, “I made it to this school through a whole lot of trial and tribulation, and I’m here with you, so I’m just as smart, maybe even a little bit smarter. So I just got to figure the money part out, and I can do that because if there’s nothing else I know how to do, I know how to study.”
Tori Dunlap:
Well, really interesting. I want everybody listening to think about what you just said. I think most people go into a room like that and the imposter syndrome hits, which is, “I’m not supposed to be here. Everybody else is more qualified or prettier or richer,” or insert thing here. And your response is the exact opposite, which is, “Wow, I’ve worked actually way harder to be in this room, so I am just as qualified if not more qualified to be here.” And that is a reframe you all can take into your everyday life.
And I love that because that’s how I feel. I don’t suffer from imposter syndrome anymore. I walk into any room and I’m like, “I know I have something of value to give or I wouldn’t be here. I know that I’m supposed to be here. I know that I can communicate in a way that maybe somebody else can’t. And so I think that’s so powerful.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
And I think part of it is, even as a teenager, I knew I couldn’t afford to feel like an imposter. I had to walk into whatever space allowed me to be in that space by whichever conspiracy of the universe allowed me to get to those places that I had to walk in, and I needed to own it. So I couldn’t be there and be in the corner. Nope. I had to be there and I had to be like, “Hi, I’m Darla. So nice to meet you. I’m so happy to be here.” And it served me so well even now as I’m approaching my 40th birthday. Served me so well.
Tori Dunlap:
And making the most of that opportunity, I think that’s so important. Before we move on, I want to touch on this financial trauma because this is the thing that I hear when I ask, when I was working one-on-one with clients back in the day, it was what was your first money memory? And it was almost never positive. And I have the exercise in my book now of what is your first money memory? And people have taken the photos and sent it to me. And again, it tends to be trauma laced. It tends to not be positive. So what concrete steps have you taken to work through that to understand and get to a better place with your money? And what would you advise somebody listening to do?
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Part of it is I actually also had a real recognition that mostly women, the women in my life, my mom, her sisters, my aunts. They were the ones who were in charge of writing the checks and keeping the checkbook in our family. And it wasn’t that they made bad choices. It wasn’t that they were making bad decisions, it’s just frankly, they didn’t have enough money. And in fact, they were incredibly skilled. They were artful at the skill of community, of leveraging social capital, which I now know is a word. But back then I was just like, “Wow, we have a community. We have a village of trading.” If you’ve ever heard of bag, borrow, steal to make it all work.
And so I remember one of the things that clicked for me, I don’t even remember what happened to make it click. It’s like, “Oh, I know how to live without money.” But those skills that I learned of learning how to live without money, if I just flip them just a little bit, then these skills can serve me because I know a lot more about money than my rich classmate who drives a Range Rover and got special permission to park it on campus a lot more. And thank goodness his parents raised a kind person who was one of the best people I’ve ever known in my life. And I knew a lot more about money than he did.
Tori Dunlap:
It was out of necessity. I think that’s so, so important. The thing you hear a lot and that I’ll sometimes say is, if you know how to manage, let’s say $500, you can manage 5,000, 50,000, 500,000. The concepts don’t really change. It’s just to your point, tweaking it a little bit, optimizing it a little bit, and also understanding that what money narratives are serving you versus which ones aren’t.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Right. And part of it is when you’re in survival mode for any amount of time.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, scarcity.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
There’s also a fear, right? There’s a fear, and I see this in families in Detroit where the grandparents worked really hard to own a home and they pass it down to the next generation, but the next generation is hesitant to renew, to renovate, to reconstruct because they want to save the cash. But then that means the house value doesn’t continue to increase, which means that when the further generation gets it, it’s in disrepair, maybe even gets let go. And so figuring out that the skills you had in survival were really helpful and we thank them for how they get us through whatever that period or season of our life was.
And we also release it because that shit isn’t helping us right now. It does not serve me. And in fact, when I talk with people about this, one of the things I have them do is I have them get a piece of paper and a pen, and I say, “I need you to write down exactly the words you just said, and then we’re going to ball it up and throw that shit away.” Because that physical act helps signal the brain that, “We need to move on from this.”
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and that transitions us perfectly into my question. We’ll talk more about grad school later in the episode, but you have a master’s in public health, and between that and also being a financial educator, do you see an intersection or how do you see an intersection because I know there’s one between personal finance and public health?
Dr. Darla Bishop:
It’s doctor actually.
Tori Dunlap:
Excuse me. I am very sorry.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
No, no. I have both a master’s and a doctorate in public health. And when I was working on my dissertation, what became clear were things I already knew from my lived experience is that when you don’t have money, when your basic needs, which money help you meet quite a bit, are not met, it’s a lot harder to pay attention to your health and your wellness and your physical activity. If you have to eat survival food, it is very difficult to maintain or prevent the bad outcomes that come from diabetes because you have diabetes partially because of the environment when you have a lower socioeconomic status.
Do you know… Sorry, I’m going to get on a soapbox here. If you tell me the zip code you grew up in, I can tell you with uncanny accuracy, your life expectancy, the average credit score you probably have, and which diseases you are likely to encounter over the course of your life. That’s pretty fucked up. The good news is that credit score is really, really movable. And so when we work on that, it builds a lot of resilience into your life, into your livelihood and into your health.
Tori Dunlap:
I mean, there was a study that I found when I was researching for the book around brains on poverty, especially mother’s brains on poverty, and how it impacts literally the growth and development while they’re pregnant of their child, but also, of course, the child’s upbringing. Just the brain does not develop in the same way or does not have the same opportunities to thrive.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
It doesn’t. And one of the key indicators of success in college is actually from five-year-olds, whether or not that five-year-old has ever been to a museum. And think about what does it take for you to be able to go to a museum? You have to know where the museum is. You have to know what the hours are, be able to go during the day because they’re not frequently open at night. You have to have a source of transportation that feels safe and is easy to get to. You might have to have an admission fee. And you have to know that museums are a place that you can take kids.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. All of it. I didn’t know five-years-old museum connection. That’s crazy. You shared in a previous interview quote, “I believe that working people deserve to feel like they can afford everything. Everything that brings them peace, everything they want, whatever that means for them.” Can you talk more about why this is your mission and specifically how you think working people are often overlooked when it comes to personal finance education or advice?
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Well, we all are overlooked, but what happens is so much of how much we know about money is driven by who we lived with growing up and who we lived around growing up. And so because in our work settings, there’s no effort to teach about financial education, even though these people are paying me. And depending on what type of job I have, they may even be giving me thousands of dollars of other types of benefits. But no one’s sitting down with me and being like, “Hey, do you know how to really maximize these? Do you know why you need to sign up for the IRA or the 401k or the 403B?”
They offer some webinar that no one’s going to go to because they’re probably working too hard anyway and those are the people with office jobs. That’s not counting any of the folks who are on their feet all day changing bedsheets and cleaning tables. And so that question came up because someone said, “Well, why the heck would you write a book and call it How to Afford Everything?” And I said, “You know what? When I wrote this book, it was on my heart to make a bold promise. So the people who were scared to pick up a book about money would pick up the book about money.”
Tori Dunlap:
That’s part of the reason why I say I am rich and I want other women to be rich because it’s going to one, a bunch of people off, and I love that. But two, it’s going to be something that inherently challenges one of the things I’m trying to get you to overcome, which is this fear of money or this fear of stating very clearly transparently what you actually want.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
And I don’t know if you’ve ever read the book by Kara Goldin, she’s the founder of Hint Water. In her book Undaunted, she has this fantastic quote, which I tell people all the time, and it says, “The surest way I found that the surest way to get what you want is to ask clearly and directly.” But it takes a lot of courage and it takes a lot of self-awareness to be in the space to be able to do that.
Tori Dunlap:
So we’re talking about recovering from poverty. I mentioned this before. Huge chunk of our audience that struggles with this survival mindset. You were discussing how you moved through that, but what kind of stories are you encountering as a financial educator from what is the common things that you’re seeing from people in terms of, is it not being able to afford bills, of course, but give me some concrete things so that maybe if somebody’s listening, they can go, “Oh, yeah, that’s me.”
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Well, it’s actually really a lack of awareness that they’ve been so afraid to look. They’ve just been afraid to look at their bank account, to look at the credit card statements, to get a real true, honest status of where things are and are not, because they’re just so sure that they’ve messed it up and it’s beyond repair. And when we actually go through the exercise of looking at the past 90 days and we do this, we ain’t shutting on ourself. They don’t even sound good. We are not shutting on ourselves. We are putting on our NCIS or Law and Order hat. We are going to be investigators. We’re going to get real curious about what happened in the last 90 days.
Where did the money go? Where did the money come from? What are some things we remembered? What are some things we forgot? And then use that information to make a plan for going forward. And that part is hard, but once that part is done, it’s like, “Oh, so it turns out I’m not a loser. I am not a complete fuck-up. I actually just didn’t have the knowledge or the memory to plan for the things that aren’t the normal utility, rent, car payment. But all my friends have birthdays in May, and so we had three birthday dinners, and I love my friends, and that’s the one thing that I look forward to because I work so dang on hard that I wasn’t going to skip those birthday dinners.”
And so fine, don’t skip the birthday dinners. Just make sure you pull out your calendar and be like, “Who has a birthday? Who’s getting married? We’re going on a trip. How are we planning for that?” And then put a dollar amount to it and make a plan for it.
Tori Dunlap:
We call it at Her First $100K, the ostrich effect. Where you bury your head in the sand, you act like your problems don’t exist, and that feels temporarily way better. But just to your point, I always say that you cannot get a plan unless you know the lay of the land. You cannot create a budget unless you understand where your money’s going. You cannot set financial goals unless you know where your money’s going, what’s going in and what’s going out. And I think that of course, feels so deeply uncomfortable if you’ve never done it before.
And if you attach a lot of emotion to it, if you’re judging yourself, if you’re shaming yourself. I call it being an anthropologist in your own life but I love the NCIS metaphor too, of just, “Oh, interesting. That happened. What can I learn from it?” Almost like removing yourself from it and looking at it as if you have a no emotional attachment to it.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
And the other piece of it too is getting over yourself so that you can get over yourself, right? Which sometimes we don’t even feel like we need to, but we do. Just kind of do it. And it’s one of those things where I’m not motivated to make a budget or I’m not a motivator, or the fear comes from failing before having tried it and it didn’t work out, but motivation isn’t what does it. Actually it’s the action. So take the action and then the motivation and the momentum will come with that, but move those feet first.
Tori Dunlap:
When you’ve mentioned in trying to overcome or heal from poverty or scarcity that you had to address the past, the present, and the future all at the same time. Can you talk about what you mean by that?
Dr. Darla Bishop:
And so when I was at college, I had decided that… Well, it was more a decision plus a recognition. I figured out that if I wanted to be able to leave with this fancy degree and go anywhere in the country before the fancy job that I knew I was going to get probably in Washington, DC or Chicago. A real city. Detroit is a real city, but when you grow up in a city, it doesn’t feel like a real city. And I realized like, “Oh, wait, if I want to move, I’m going to need first month rent, last month rent, a U-Haul truck and maybe have to buy furniture. And depending on how long it takes me to find the job and move, who knows when that paycheck is going to come.”
And so I decided that I needed to have a certain amount of money in my bank account by graduation so that money wouldn’t keep me from my dream job because I couldn’t afford to move there or be without a paycheck for a few weeks. And in the process of working the extra job, saving the money, opening up my high yield savings account, it was one of those things where I was like, “Oh, part of the reason why I need so much money because my friends were like, ‘Why are you working all the time? Why do you always need so much money?'” And it was because I had to do three things at once. It was so deeply important. I had younger siblings at home and my mom had just returned from being incarcerated.
And she was raising them again after they had been with my aunt, her sister. And so completely different parenting styles, completely different budgeting and money styles. And also my mom had just been in prison for four years, and so she was just trying to figure out what parts of her life could be picked up and which ones could not. And I remember my sister being like, “Well, I want to play softball, but I don’t know if we have the fees.” I was like, “I have the money. I already sent it.” Because I was like, I don’t want her to say no to something or to opt out because I’m in college. I can go to work, I can get the extra hours at the restaurant, or I can take the extra project at the lab.
And I was like, “Oh, that’s right. I need to have money for my past.” And for me, the past was I picked up a tiny bit of credit card debt, not a lot because I was very careful with my credit card. Plus I wanted to make sure I always had money that if my mom, my sister or my brother called, I could get it to them within three to five days, like, “Yep, I have it. Don’t worry, it’s in the mail.” Or I figured out how to transfer it electronically, which wasn’t as easy at that time. I also needed to make sure I was putting money away for that move, right? Because I just had this dream of getting the hell out of Michigan and going to a big city and living my awesome, college degree, fancy girl in a tiny apartment life.
I watched a lot of Sex in the City growing up, so I wasn’t going to be Carrie, but some aspects of that lifestyle. And I also recognized that if I didn’t take care of today, if I said no to everything, if I never went out to brunch or to the party or on a road trip with my friends because I was so worried about money. That I was going to miss my life, I was going to miss what people say is the absolute best part of their life, which is college. And that if I only let myself buy the groceries, the apple that was on sale, and I didn’t get myself the apple that I would actually eat because that’s the one apple I like.
That I was doing myself a disservice and my body was not going to trust me, that my body wouldn’t trust that I was taking us out of poverty. That all those hours, all those times talking to tables that were just absolutely rude and super rich people who were like, “Oh, you must be a nice little student.” And actually I have seven degrees. I just work here because I want the cash. That my body wouldn’t trust that it was all worth it if I didn’t take care of me today at the same time.
Tori Dunlap:
I need you to go back five minutes, dear listener, and listen to all that again. That was so good. Also, what’s coming up for me, and that I think is just always important to acknowledge is even as you’re describing your story, we both worked really hard. I have privilege though that it sounds like you didn’t have. I was never sending money to a family member in college. I was working through college to make sure I was graduating debt free. That was a huge part of what I did. But there is so much privilege as a part of money, and I just always want to remind people that every person’s financial journey is different.
And the importance of this show and of having conversations, one, because it reminds me of, “Tori, you work hard, you also have a shit ton of privilege.” And also you need to hear about personal finance from other people. You need to hear about financial journeys from other people so you feel seen or so that you are reminded of your own privilege. And I just want to highlight that because I did not have that experience. And the fact that you were able to get yourself through multiple years of college and get the degrees you have while also having the responsibility of other people is pretty extraordinary.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
That’s why I wrote a book because I got so tired of looking for the knowledge, of looking for the information, and so many books told me I couldn’t take care of my mama. They said, “Do not loan, do not give. You secure your own situation first.” Which is yes, incredibly important, especially if you are the safety net in the family, in the community, but also it was not realistic or anything that was even in the realm of what I wanted to do to not take care of my mama.
And so I needed to make sure that the lessons I learned about how to navigate that were someone who needed a story, who needed an example, who needed a way to do both. To strengthen their situation and also take care of whoever needed to be taken care of at the same time, and to be reassured that even if it took longer because they had the extra responsibility, that they would get there. That they would be able to afford everything and that it would be worth it, and they would feel so good that they figured out how to do both.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s even such a good reminder for me as an educator. So I appreciate that. Speaking of privilege, one of the things that we wanted to chat with you about is there is a general distrust of the financial system, I think for most people, but especially for Black folks, which is totally understandable. So we know that 30, I think it’s 33%, of the US population is either un- or underbanked, and a huge portion of that is folks of color. There’s a distrust of investing. What is your take on learning to get past that fear or distrust and also understanding that sometimes that fear is completely justified.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
So it takes a bunch of things and sometimes a bunch of things a bunch of different ways, a bunch of times. And part of it is you can lean into these colloquialisms we have. If we say things like, “Don’t put your eggs in one basket.” Usually people will say that in reference to, well, don’t put all your money in the bank. When it’s actually putting all of your money in the mattress or using the check cashing store, which charges you a whole lot of money to get access to money you already earned by trading your time, your talent, your strength, your energy.
Maybe we should change which baskets we’re putting it in and just try it. The good news about a bank is there’s this thing called FDIC insurance. Here’s what that means. It means that if the banks crash again, your money is still safe, but if somebody comes to your house and breaks the toilet and gets your little Ziploc bag out like in Burlesque, you’re screwed.
Tori Dunlap:
And I think it’s also understanding too that you have to, as much as we want to change the system that exists, sometimes you have to work within it in order to take care of yourself. And there are different resources for you that aren’t as predatory. You just brought up check cashing establishments. I often bring up this doubt on the show, but just in case you haven’t heard me say it, the average percentage for a payday loan, the average interest rate percentage in the United States is 400%.
And no, that’s not a typo. I have that number right. It is 400%. The average credit card is 22%. The average student loan is anywhere from four to 7%, so that is 400%. And who is often taking out those loans? Black and brown people, low income people because they don’t have access to any other resources.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
And that’s why I recognize too that the way that I talk about debt is a lot different than many of my peers in this space. Because for me, having access to good, affordable, low cost debt is a treat, is gift. It can literally change the trajectory of your life because I saw so many people get into bad situations with things like title loans, payday loans, and check cashing places. And so give me the 28% credit card. That’s a much better deal.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s one of my biggest pet peeves about our industry is that certain individuals want to demonize debt. And I’m like a debt is often the way you level up. The average person cannot go to college and degrees beyond without taking on debt. And I know we’re going to talk about that in a second, but the average person can’t buy a home without… You’re not buying a home in cash. You might not even be buying a home at all, right? And so it’s just like debt is not a bad thing.
It’s often how we level up our lives. I was 22, I couldn’t pay for a $22,000 car in cash. I had to take out a loan in order to get a dependable car. So I think I call total and utter bullshit on that because I do believe that debt is actually, used wisely, one of the smartest tools we have.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
And one of the most important. We know that when Black and brown communities especially have access to good debt, and by good debt we mean not that predatory stuff. That it means that they are much more likely to weather a financial storm so that it doesn’t cause long term… It might cause short-term fees and some extra costs, but it won’t cause long-term ruin.
Tori Dunlap:
You went to graduate school, you came out with zero debt. How the fuck did that happen? Tell us please.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
So if you haven’t figured it out, I’m a hustler. There’s actually a brand of shirts, Detroit Hustles Harder and it’s true. It’s true. Well, part of it is I knew that I could not take…. When I went into my doctorate for work, because this is my doctorate programs. For my master’s degree, I took about 10,000 of debt. For undergrad, I took about 3000 of debt because I wanted to study abroad. I’m from Detroit and I came from a poor family with substance abuse father and a jailbird mama. And I don’t say that to demonize my parents because my parents did amazing. Have you seen this?
Despite all that, I have a beautiful life. But I say it to say, I remember thinking there’s no way I’m ever going to get a passport if I don’t go on study abroad. This is my way out of this country and I don’t want to leave the country. I just want to go see what it’s like other places. And so I took a small loan so that I could study abroad because I was like, “This might be my only shot at leaving the country.” So I did it. When I went back to school about five years after my master’s degree, I remember sitting down, at that time I had already gotten married with my husband being like, “This is a four to five year program.” It took me eight years, but that’s another story for a different day.
And I was like, “Well, can I stop working?” And the answer was like, “Oh, hell no. I am not far enough out of poverty to go be a full-time student for four or five years.” So I decided to only apply to graduate schools that would allow me to work either full-time or close to full-time. And some graduate programs are like, “You have to be a full-time student, you have internships, you have things you have to do with your professors.” And that wasn’t going to work for me because I wasn’t far enough out of poverty for that. And then on top of that, I made sure that every semester I was in somebody’s office or email box like, “Hi, I’m Darla. You remember me? I stopped by and stole your candies. I have a $2,000 shortfall next semester.
I’m already planning to teach. I have this scholarship, but I have a $2,000 shortfall. School have any money?” Sometimes the answer’s like, “No, sorry, we don’t have any money.” And sometimes they’re like, “Actually, yes, would you like it now and next semester?” And so one of the things that I’ve put together is I polled a bunch of my friends because the cool thing about having a doctorate, and I know that this is one of the things that makes me slightly less relatable, but Dr. Bishop is still Darla Bishop, is I have a bunch of friends who also have doctorates. So I kind of asked them like, “Hey, when we were in grad school or when you were in grad school, what were some of the craziest things you did to pay for school?”
And I figured out that there were seven strategies that we all used to keep that debt really low. And I put them in an ebook because you know what? I want as many people who think or believe or want to go to grad school or even college to go and to come out with as little debt as possible because frankly, that student loan debt is soul crushing. I have a relative who I helped about a year and a half ago go through the forgiveness program because the Biden administration had made it much easier. They fixed a bunch of things and she said, “Well, last time I tried that, it didn’t get me anywhere and I just don’t think it’s going to work.”
And I said, “Well, no, they changed the rules. Let me help you with the paperwork.” And when we looked at her numbers, because some of her student loans were one from the 1980s. She still had loans from the 1980s, from 1987. Her loan debt was over $900,000. But when I looked at the original balances, it wasn’t even $40,000, but because it’s been 30 years, 900,000 bucks. Can you imagine being $900,000 in debt for a degree not even helping you?
Tori Dunlap:
I’m unmuted so everybody knows who’s just an audio listener that I’m having a conniption. Jesus Christ.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
And it was affecting her in so many ways that I ended up being a little bit of a therapist through it, right? Because she was like, “Well, I have this partner and we can’t get married because he doesn’t want to get married to my dad. And I understand because with his credit, but our income, we can get a house, but with my debt, we won’t be able to do it the same way. And plus they have a blended family, so what do we do if one of us passes and then his kids versus my kids?” And so she was like, “And it’s a problem because we want to get married, but he’s being very clear and I understand why we can’t do it yet, and so it would really make a big difference if we could figure this out.”
So we went through the process and we were able to get $850,000 of them discharged, and it turned out that because she had worked for a state government or a city government for plenty of time, but her stuff had never been counted appropriately. She got credit for so much of that time, so she just had to make one additional year, I think it was 14 months of payments, which she was like, “They’re a little bit high, but it’s not a million dollars, and so I’m going to figure out how to pay this off.” And so she will be debt free from that $900,000 in student loan debt come February, unless we have really good Christmas because then we might throw a little extra money at it.
Tori Dunlap:
First of all, shout out to that woman and fuck the system that did that to her. Second of all, this is why we vote for policies and policymakers, and this is why I talk about all the time on the show and in my work that personal finance is about 20% your personal choices, 80%, all the rest of it. So amazing.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Just like your health.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, yes.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Your health, right? So you asked me earlier about the connection between health and finances. Same thing about your health. Your health is 20% what you do and 80% of what you don’t do because it’s the systems, the environments that you interact with and live in. And when it comes to student loan debt, that’s why I didn’t think I would end up being in this space, but it’s so needed. I’m out here posting and putting up resources and putting up checklists because the number one way to take care of student loan debt is to prevent it in the first place. If we can figure out how to get you through that education with as little debt as possible, we can save your soul, not because you’re going to hell. Wrong show for that, but because your soul won’t be crushed by that debt.
Tori Dunlap:
We will link the e-book down below. That sounds great. Also, the story that you told, I can see a lot of people being like, “That’s not real. You just waltzed into an office and ask for more money.” My college roommate literally did that. I think her dad was going through a rough time and was paying off some of her education and couldn’t and the college wants to keep you there because if you drop out, they don’t make any more money off of you.
That’s the villainous version, but the best, assuming positive intent, version is they don’t want you to have to drop out so you can get an education, so you can take your classes and so it’s not this big thing. So that literally happened to my college roommate. She went into financial aid and she’s like, “Here’s my scenario.” And I think they gave her $7,000.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
And I put on my website for free, so you don’t even have to buy the e-book for this part. I put the exact email script I used every semester,
Tori Dunlap:
I love it.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
To ask for this money. And this email script got me $17,000. $17,000 just because one, they knew I was going to ask because I always asked. And so at some point after the third or fourth time, they were like, “Can we just find this woman some money so she can leave us alone?” Because it’s hard to say no to a smiling face who was like, “Hey, I’m a Black woman in your program and I would really like to graduate and I promise to be an engaged donor, but I have to graduate in order to make that happen. So how are you going to help?”
Tori Dunlap:
“You can put me on all of the come to this university pamphlets. I can be your diversity hire. Just get me through this degree.”
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Get me through it, send the money.
Tori Dunlap:
I did a version, it’s not a full version of this, but what I realized is for my undergrad is I am saying I have more degrees. I just have an undergraduate degree. But for my undergrad, I would go into… There was department specific scholarships. No one told me this, that you get your merit scholarship, you get your financial aid package if you get one. And you’re like, “I guess that’s it.” And then you start applying for the private scholarships on those huge scholarship databases. But I didn’t realize… I actually figured out if I went and auditioned to get into the theater program and the audition was kind of like, “You’re in regardless. It doesn’t really matter.”
You got a theater scholarship that increased every single year you were there. And then I think I realized my sophomore year that I was a comm major as well, that there was a communications scholarship. And I never explicitly said if it was need-based or not. And so I was just like, “I’ll apply.” And I think one year I got $500. I think every year I got $500, which doesn’t sound like a lot, but cool. That’s $500 less that I have to come up with.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
And that’s books, supplies, that’s uniforms or costumes for productions you’re in. So those are things, those dollars add up. And yes, so the department scholarships, but also sometimes young students, especially if you’re a first generation student especially, or even if you’re not a first generation student. The way our parents went to college is completely different than the way we have to go to college. They’re like, “Oh, I worked all summer and paid my tuition bill.” Like, “Fuck you. That’s not how life works today. So stop trying to give me advice and go live in your paid off house that you paid $5 for.”
Tori Dunlap:
Literally.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Literally.
Tori Dunlap:
I graduated in 2016, so I’m still a baby, but I look at my college now, what it costs. So what is that? Eight years ago I graduated, it’s $20,000 more, 10, 15 a year. It’s something insane. I think if you didn’t get financial aid, if you lived on campus, the whole tuition I think was 48K a year, which is already insane. But then now I’m looking at it, my same college is I think 60, 65, and I’m like, “What?” It’s just nuts.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
And so when it comes to… People don’t realize that whatever you came in with doesn’t mean it won’t change or it can’t change every year. In fact, I was a Gates Millennium Scholars. Thanks to my childhood trauma I had some really good essays about all the stuff that I had to go through and still figured out how to study and get good enough grades to go to my dream college, but I didn’t know if I’d be able to pay for it because I didn’t even have the money for the little fee that you paid to say, “Hey, I’m coming to this university.” Again another story for another discussion.
So I had a full scholarship for my undergraduate degree, but every year, even though everything was covered, how much came from that main scholarship, how much came from smaller scholarships changed every single year. 1500 there, 2000 there, seven 50 here. And so what I want students to hear if they don’t hear anything else is, however you start isn’t how it has to be the next year or the year after that. Those things change every year so just make sure that you do what you can to make it change in your favor where you’re taking less debt.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re mentioning working while getting your degree, especially if you’re considering graduate school or really any sort of higher ed. How can you balance that? What piece of advice do you suggest for maintaining that balance without either falling into financial distress or having to quit university because you got to make money?
Dr. Darla Bishop:
So if you’re a younger person, meaning that you’re one of those more traditional students, you’re somewhere between 17 and 22 going to college, then what you do is you find an on-campus job. And the cool thing about an on-campus job is they can range anything from being a landscaper where you’re out in the hot sun, you’re changing the flower beds, so the flowers always look perfect on campus. You’re moving, you’re shoveling manure and putting down mulch. If that’s what you want to do, you can do that.
Or you can be the card swiper at the library who never even looks up so that you can read your book, so that you can listen to your audio lectures. And so figure out which campus job will fit your needs, whether that means you need to sit and study or maybe that’s where you socialize. So you do want to work in the cafeteria so you can hang out with your friends. So just find that job that fits your social or your academic needs and get that job.
Tori Dunlap:
I have to tell you why I was laughing. Turns out I was wrong. I just did a quick Google search of my university. All in, tuition, fees, room and board, 79,862 a year.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Wow. That’s the kind of money. And I have little kids and I have a four and a 6-year-old, and I’m like, “If this is how much tuition is now, maybe we’re going to just start telling them college isn’t for them.” I mean, we’re not going to, but every once in a while I think about it.
Tori Dunlap:
And this is a private university. I went to the University of Portland, so it’s not a state school, but it’s not a very well celebrated liberal arts college in New England. Oh, God. But we did have a question about that actually bringing that up. When people say this isn’t worth it, and you’re obviously someone who found a lot of value in higher education. Can you talk about why you still think it’s valuable? How do you suggest listeners decide if this is right for them knowing how expensive… This is just for an undergrad degree, it’s 80K.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Per year, and usually those take four years.
Tori Dunlap:
And I will say, because I do like my college a lot and I was a tour guide, 99% of people who apply get some sort of financial aid or scholarships. So no one’s paying the sticker price, but how do we determine if this is right for us?
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Well, part of it is, it’s going back to that past, present, future thing we were talking about earlier is when you’re in a university or college setting, you can’t be only studying. You can’t be only working. You have to spend time with the people because one of the most valuable things you’ll get from a college situation is not the degree, it’s the network. The fact that I can call on 200 people who vaguely remember who I am, and I can be like, “Hey, I’m writing a book. You want to buy a copy or two?” And they’re like, “That sounds great. I kind of remember you.” Or “I’m starting this new project, do you mind sharing it on your socials?”
And they’re like, “Yeah, I remember you from college. That’s so cool that you’re doing that now.” It’s that network. It’s the people who end up being the titans of whatever industry they go in, or they ended up putting money into crypto. Sorry, I can’t even believe I said this as an example, but I do have an associate, I wouldn’t call them a friend. A person I know from college who actually made a lot of money in crypto, but now he has a lot of money. And so if I really thought I wanted to, I probably could put the right words together to pitch him for some investment funds because we have a connection through this university.
And so when you’re in college, be in college, join a club or two, make some friends, do stupid stuff that won’t ruin your life. So stay up late, eat bad food, but try not to go to jail.
Tori Dunlap:
You have some spending commandments. Can we talk about those?
Dr. Darla Bishop:
So I think it’s chapter two. These are a few easy rules to pull out. If you’re just starting out or starting over in your money journey and you just need some guiding principles. That’s why I wrote the spending commandments, and this is my emotional support copy of how to afford everything. So you see, it’s all stained and tabbed up. And so I couldn’t find it earlier today and I was like, “Where’s my emotional support copy?” But I found it. And so the first three are real simple, know thy budget. So actually make a budget and have a sense of how much money you’re allowed to spend when you’re out with your friends, when you’re out by yourself, when you’re out with your kids, if you have them.
And if you have financial goals, which hopefully you do. Honor them. If you have a goal to do something, to achieve something, to accomplish something, make decisions that get you closer to that goal most of the time. Then do not impulse buy. Look, the stores literally pay people hundreds of thousand dollars a year as their job to make it really enticing for you to spend your money with them. Don’t let that person win. They got their paycheck. So when you see something cool in the store, do you know why they call it a store? They will store the items for you until tomorrow or the next day when you can think about it, make sure you’ve got the money or make a plan if you don’t have the money, but you really want or need the item.
And my personal favorite, worry about thyself. In life, real life and social online, it is really easy to get caught up in seeing how people or what we think people are doing and experiencing and getting to do. But boo, you don’t know the whole story. You don’t. Someone met me recently who was like, “Oh my gosh, you must have had these perfect parents who put you through private school and that’s why you have a doctorate.” I’m like, “Wow, is that the vibe I give off? My therapy has really been working if I’m giving off those type of healed, spoiled brat vibes.” That’s good. You know what, I’m going to call my therapist and send her a thank you note.”
But it’s one of those things like you have no idea what’s behind the part that you see. So worry about yourself, boo. Worry about yourself.
Tori Dunlap:
You mentioned the book. I’m so excited for people to read it. I hate and love this question because I get asked this too, and I am like, “I have written the entire book for you to read.” But if there is one thing that you could have somebody take away or one big message, what’s the thesis statement here? I’ll pull my own degree out. What is the thesis statement of the book? What do you want people to get out of it?
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Money is fun. And so if that has not been your experience with money, let me show you the way, because money is fun. I’ve had peers in my life where we had none. We’ve had a little bit, we’ve had medium size, and I’m on my way to bigger. And let me tell you, it is fun on this side. So let me show you how.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that. I’m excited to read the book. I’m excited to learn more about your work. Thank you for being here, and thank you for all the work you’re doing. Where can people find out more about you? Plug away.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
The easiest place to find me is Darlabishop.com. That freebie that I was telling you about is called the Paycheck Playbook. So I made a URL because it’s apparently easy to do that. PaycheckPlaybook.com, that’s where you can get the letter that I used every semester to get $17,000 from George Washington University, so I could leave that school with a degree and none of the debt. And other free resources because the thing about it is I’m still not all that far out of poverty, but I’m a lot further and a lot closer to where I want to be and I want people to join me.
I want people to join me. I want to have friends that I can call and be like, “Let’s go to brunch.” Like, “No problem. You know what? My birthday’s coming up. Can you get some time off work? Let’s go somewhere.” Yes, let’s do that. I want everybody in my life to feel good about money because it feels good to feel good about money.
Tori Dunlap:
I couldn’t agree more. Thank you. Thanks for being here.
Dr. Darla Bishop:
Thanks for having me.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you to Dr. Bishop for joining us. You can get her book, How to Afford Everything wherever you get your books. And her Instagram is my_finansis, like your sister, F-I-N-A-N-S-I-S. As always, Financial Feminist we appreciate your support. We appreciate you being here. You can subscribe to wherever you’re listening right now to get more episodes. You can share episodes with friends and family, and as we round out to the end of this year, we’re going to be doing some really great things on the show. I mean just in general, but especially as we kick off next year to help you set and achieve your financial goals, to help you get on track, to help you make 2025 your best financial year yet.
So please subscribe because you’re going to want to stay tuned. Thank you as always, we appreciate you. Have a great kick ass holiday. Enjoy and we’ll talk to you soon. Bye-bye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant, research by Sarah Sciortino, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf, marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew.
Special thanks to our team at Her First $100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Sasha Bonnar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Kurronen, Daryl Ann Ingram, and Meghan Walker, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound.
A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, please visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
