“Maybe I should just be happy. This job is pretty decent. I make a good living, and everyone else around me works until retirement. Why don’t I just be happy and do this?”
From opening up her first savings account at the age of 6, to later saving more than $169,000, guest Jamila Souffrant recounts her early experiences with money and work as the child of immigrant parents in New York City. She knew at a young age that money was going to be the key to living the life she wanted to live, but as she looked at the people around her, all she saw was misery and unfulfillment.
“I was happy to have this job, but I would look around at everyone, even though I was happy to be entering the workforce, I saw the people who were older than me who were a little miserable or just working for the weekend or for retirement. And I was like, “That can’t be me.”
And so she decided to figure out an escape by the age of 30.
What is financial independence?
From a technical point of view, it simply means to be able to live off of your investments without having to actively work a job. You’re able to cover all your expenses with the income earned from your investment portfolio. Jamila shares that in her journey to become financially independent, she realized that the concept seemed a bit too overwhelming for most people. She shares that in order to help bring more people along with her, she had to help people understand the difference between financial freedom and financial independence, then help them break down the concept into more manageable pieces.
Is there a difference between financial freedom and financial independence?
According to Jamila — yes.
She believes you can achieve financial freedom on your way to financial independence — that it’s not linked to the amount of money you have. It’s about being able to make choices, have security, and feel good about where you are, even if you still have some insecurities about money. “I encourage people to start the journey to financial independence because on your way, you’ll achieve more freedom, more options, more autonomy over your time on that path.”
Jamila and Tori go on to discuss the importance of understanding the point that no one’s story is going to look exactly like yours. There will always be people with greater privilege than you, different circumstances, different backgrounds…but the focus should be on taking information and applying it in ways that work for you. Jamila then shares a message that she talks about in her book, “There are going to be people who have more privileges than you, but you also probably have more privileges than someone else. The idea is not to pinpoint and see the differences; it’s to pull what works for you or what you can relate to.”
It was through this process that she was able to craft her own idea of what the financial independence journey would look like for her. It’s also how she was able to save $169,000 in two years and eventually quit her job and pursue her business full-time.
Finding balance while on your journey
Tori makes it a point to call out extreme tendencies while on the journey to financial freedom, saying that we start to treat financial goals like a “crash diet,” going too hard and too fast, and that it’s not sustainable. She questions if there’s a way to find a balance between progressing towards our goals while also finding joy in our lives.
Jamila explains that the key is understanding where you are in your “Journeyer Stage,” which she lists as the following:
- The explorer stage – getting to financial stability, making sure your bills are paid
- The cadet stage – getting out of consumer debt
- The aviator stage – establishing security, investing and building up your assets
- The commander stage – achieving work flexibility
- The captain stage – designing your dream life, calling your own shots
Knowing what stage you’re in and determining what you’re willing (or unwilling) to sacrifice or trade-off during each of those stages ( which she refers to as your “guac level”) will help you to enjoy the journey.
Jamila and Tori delve deeper into their discussion about the 5 journeyer stages, finding fulfillment in your journey, and navigating your unique path and much more in this episode.
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Meet Jamila
Jamila Souffrant is the author of “Your Journey To Financial Freedom A Step-by-Step Guide to
Achieving Wealth and Happiness” and the host of the Journey To Launch podcast. She is considered a go-to thought leader in the personal finance field and her work has been featured in BuzzFeed, ESSENCE, Refinery 29, Money Magazine, CNBC, CBS, Business Insider and more. The Journey To Launch Podcast has over 4+ million total downloads and was listed by the NYTimes as a podcast to help you get better with your money. Jamila and her husband saved $169,000 in two years, is also a mother of three young children and lives in Brooklyn, NY.
Transcript:
Jamila Souffrant:
I know that Tori, a lot of people who have money and they’re still not happy or who can consider themselves financially independent, but don’t feel secure. And so while yes, there’s a certain level of money that we all need to meet our basic needs, the journey, I believe that we are on externally to reach financial independence really starts internally. And waiting until you reach the number, whether you pay off debt or you have enough saved or invested to then discover who you are and what makes you happy, or to start living your life only makes you actually feel worse when you get there and realize that you’re still not happy.
Tori Dunlap:
Hi, Financial Feminists. Welcome back to the show. I am so excited to see you. I hope you had a lovely Thanksgiving and didn’t get into too many fraught conversations over the Thanksgiving dinner table. I am so excited for today’s guest. It has been a long time coming to have her on the show. Jamila Souffrant is the author of Your Journey to Financial Freedom: A Step-by-Step Guide to Achieving Wealth and Happiness, and the host of the Journey To Launch podcasts, which I have been lucky enough to be a guest on. She is considered a go-to thought leader in the personal finance field, and her work has been featured in BuzzFeed, Essence, Refinery 29, Money Magazine, CNBC, CBS, Business Insider and more. The Journey to Launch podcast has over 4 million total downloads and was listed by the New York Times as a podcast to help you get better with your money.
Jamila and her husband saved $169,000 in two years, and she’s also the mother of three children and lives in Brooklyn, New York. In this episode, Jamila breaks down the five stages of financial independence and the idea of really making your money work for you and the lifestyle that you want rather than following a standard blueprint. This is a great personal finance classic here over at Her First $100K. We love bringing finance experts on to give their say, their perspective around personal finance. And so much of what we teach at Her First $100K and what Jamila teaches is so aligned.
And one of the things that it’s missing a lot in the personal finance community is balance. There’s this idea that we have to give up everything now to be able to retire comfortably or start living the life that we want, and it’s not that black and white. Jamila helps us debunk the theory by talking about her own journey to living fully while also pursuing financial independence and also living in New York City raising three kids. So without further ado, let’s go ahead and get into it. But first a word from our sponsors. How long did it take you to write it?
Jamila Souffrant:
It took about, let’s see… I should really do the math on this because I had a couple of people ask me, and I think it took maybe eight months, but I’d probably need to double check.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, that’s fast.
Jamila Souffrant:
Yeah-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, so that’s fast.
Jamila Souffrant:
… it happened faster than I thought because I thought this was going to come out in 2024, and then I didn’t sign my contract until almost a year after I verbally committed to my publisher.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Jamila Souffrant:
So my book went to auction, 11 people wanted it. I said yes to the publisher that I liked. That was in November of 2021. I didn’t sign my book contract until 2022 of October, but I had started to write it and my first draft was due February 2023, and so it’s been really fast since I started writing.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. People don’t understand how long of a process it is. It’s not just the actual writing, but then you’ve got the promotion period, you’ve got the actual getting the deal, and then you’ve got the whole period of time where you’re trying to build a business or build a following to even get the deal in the first place. So it ends up-
Jamila Souffrant:
Right.
Tori Dunlap:
… I think for me, I mean it was nearly an eight-year process. It’s crazy.
Jamila Souffrant:
Yeah, it is. It’s a very long process, and sometimes it’s a lot of lull and slow periods and then it’s fast. So publisher right now, I know that they’re going to come to me with a lot of things they want done quickly in the next month because the book comes out in a month and I’m just like, “Can we get ahead of this? I’ve asked this three months ago, but okay, let’s go.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Well, and as great as publishers can be, they’re really there to produce and distribute the book. They’re there to publish the book. Even if you’re with a major publisher, you’re doing the majority of the marketing, the majority of the promotion. If you’re not in the industry, I just need people listening to know how much work it is for someone to not only write a book, but to get it published and to market it and to try to get it on bestseller list. It’s an intense process.
Jamila Souffrant:
Right. I have come to them with so many ideas, which I would’ve thought that they would’ve known, and my publishers are great. They have actually gone above and beyond so far what I thought, but I’m like, “Wow, I’m really leading this ship here. I’m the captain.” I knew that this was going to be that way, but it’s really like they have so many other projects that they’re working on that they need the author to come to the table with the ideas and asking the questions and pushing things forward.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I didn’t expect to make this a tip, but if you’re somebody who’s looking to become a published author, it’s about how well you can write, but it’s also about how well you can market. I would argue that’s actually more important. How well can you market this book?
Jamila Souffrant:
Yeah. It’s marketing, who you know and the angle at which you want to talk about the same thing that everyone else has talked about, how do you make that different?
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Well, we’re so excited to have you on the show. We always ask financial experts who come on to tell us their first money memory, the first time they remember thinking about money. So what was that for you?
Jamila Souffrant:
I would say a core money memory was when my mom took me to open up my first savings account. I was about six years old and I just remember going into the bank. It’s no longer there anymore, but walking into the bank with her and being given this little pamphlet where you put in your deposits, and because we were immigrants… So I immigrated here from the island of Jamaica. My mom had me, she’s pretty young. She was only 20 years old. And so coming here at such a young age, watching my mom literally rebuild from scratch and make a way for herself and understanding how important saving money was always instilled in me. And so her taking me to open up that bank account probably has helped to define my superpower, which has to become saving and thinking about money in that way since I was young.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and speaking of that, you started working in your teens and you shared that you would never work for someone else after age 30. What determined that for you so young and so early in your career?
Jamila Souffrant:
So 14 years old, I got my first summer youth job growing up in New York City. And there’s a saying or joke with Jamaicans, especially I think this is probably true for a lot of immigrants, is that you have multiple jobs. You are always working because money is important and you understand that at a young age. And so I started working and realizing that money was going to be the key to the life I wanted. And when I graduated college and got my full-time job, I was happy to have this job, but I would look around at everyone, even though I was happy to be entering the workforce, I saw the people who were older than me who were a little miserable or just working for the weekend or for retirement. And I was like, “That can’t be me,” and because I always had this outgoing personality, I’ve always bucked what people thought I should do and was outspoken.
I was like, “There’s no way that I could confine myself into a cubicle or working for a boss asking for time off.” I was like, “That’s not going to be me. I’m going to figure out an escape by the age of 30.” And of course, as I started working and getting into the real world, realizing there are bills and tried a bunch of things that didn’t work in terms of businesses, because I thought my pathway to making a lot of money or not working was going to be through a big business that I built or winning the lottery or marrying rich.
By the way, my boyfriend at the time did not come for money. I didn’t play the lottery. So I was like, “Okay, a business, let’s try to start one.” And then in my 20s, nothing panned out. And so I really almost gave up at a certain point and said, “Well, maybe I should just be happy. This job is pretty decent. I make a good living and everyone else around me works until retirement. Why don’t I just be happy and do this?” And so that’s how my 20s went for a bit. And then I woke up in my early 30s and said, “Nope, not again. I can’t do this.”
Tori Dunlap:
I found in research for my book, and you’re speaking to it, and I would love to know if this was your experience. A lot of my friends who are immigrants to the United States, as well as a lot of the people I talked to for my book and researched about, there’s just this, of course, certain expectation that you have for yourself or that your family has for you that feels so, what’s the word? It’s so intense of a feeling to make it, if that makes sense. I think that, again, a lot of the people that I talked to ended up with these actually pretty negative money habits because they had this immigrant mindset of, “I can’t fuck this up,” of, “the money I do get, I have to hoard it because I don’t know when it’s coming to me again.” Or, “Yeah, I need an escape hatch constantly,” which I think is, in many ways, really healthy, but in also other ways the stakes are higher. Can you talk to me a bit about that?
Jamila Souffrant:
Right. I can, and I could definitely see that having a lot of immigrant friends. And the one thread that I would say that is common between me and a lot of immigrants is the education factor.
Tori Dunlap:
Sure.
Jamila Souffrant:
Is that when my mom came here, she knew an education would be her stepping stone to making money to then… And so she instilled that in me that school was important, and so the good thing about my mom, and as you were talking, I was like, “Wow, how lucky was I to have the mom I had?” Because while education was important, she did not push me into a career path or tracked as some people get pushed into, “You need to be a lawyer, doctor.” She unfortunately was not raised with the ability to fully express herself or to realize her full potential. And luckily she didn’t turn that around on me and do that to me. She, if anything, encouraged me to be myself and to figure out things on my own, and so that helped tremendously.
So imagine coupling a mom like that, single mom who valued education, and there was a lot of reinforcement of who I was and encouragement, but that I couldn’t make my own way. And so I was always motivated to make money and to do things on my own, but it wasn’t with the pressure that some people probably feel of, “I need to have this high paying job or my mom will be disappointed.” My mom, she was always supportive and proud of me, and that actually, I talk about this in my book, Your Journey to Financial Freedom, is that I wasn’t raised with a lot of money. She didn’t have a lot of money raising me at the time, but she instilled so much confidence and love in me that we’re the building blocks to who you see today, who is able to make some of the choices and take the risk, and be on camera talking to you where I just can’t underestimate or undervalue what she instilled in me to be able to do what I’m doing.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Well, and your focus of your book and your work is on financial freedom and also financial independence. And we found in conversations on this show that everybody has a different definition for them of what financial independence means. So what is your definition and then what do you hope listeners’ definition is for themselves?
Jamila Souffrant:
Yeah. So I start with the technical definition of financial independence, which is the ability to live off of your investments. So the investments that you accumulate over time, pay for your living expenses where you have the option of never actively having to work again, you get that income from your investment and your portfolio. And so that concept for a lot of people feels very audacious. It feels almost impossible, which I understand. There’s some people who won’t even touch the concept of FIRE, financial independence, retire early because the thought of it just doesn’t seem to make sense from where they’re starting.
And so with that, I knew and understood to help people along their journey and to bring more people on the path with me, because I’m on the journey to reach financial independence, I’d have to break it out into more manageable steps because I also agree, if you’re just coming to understanding that concept, it’s just like, “Really? I have all this debt. I’m at this starting point. I feel that I can’t do it.” And so for me, I had to understand and break down the difference between financial freedom and financial independence.
I believe you can achieve financial freedom on your way to financial independence. Financial freedom is not linked to the amount of money you have. You can still be in debt and have achieved some level of financial freedom. It’s the ability to make choices, to have security, to feel good about where you are, even if you have some insecurities about your money. And so you can achieve financial freedom on your way to financial independence, and that concept, I think like you said, so many people say it differently, even the word financial independence, if you’re not in the FIRE movement, it means something different because you could be financially independent from your parents, a partner, a job, but when I say it, I mean financially independent from everyone and everything. You can literally walk away and be in control, and I don’t know who doesn’t want to have that feeling. And so I encourage people to start the journey to financial independence because on your way, you’ll achieve more freedom, more options, more autonomy over your time on that path.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and you’ve been in this game for a while, and sure you recall the early FIRE days where it was Silicon Valley, straight white tech bro who had no kids and could retire at 33 because he sold his multimillion dollar software company and rode his bike everywhere. And that was the advice of, “Ride your bike everywhere and start this huge tech company, and that’s how you can retire early,” and a lot has changed since then.
Jamila Souffrant:
Oh my gosh. So here’s the thing. I discovered financial independence and the FIRE movement when I was in my early 30s. So this is now after I failed at my audacious goal of not working for anyone past 30. And so I was now pregnant with my first son, and I have three kids now, by the way. So I was pregnant with my first child in my early 30s, and I had this horrible commute. It was an hour and a half each way, and I remember a really particular day. The commute was couple hours long, and I realized, and I was heavily pregnant, and I said, “No, wait a second. What is happening? This cannot be my life.” I knew I wanted more kids and I broke down in the car and broke down to my husband. So my boyfriend then became my fiance and then husband and said, “I cannot do this,” and that’s what prompted me to search for solutions.
I asked questions to myself like, “How do I quit this job?” And I googled it and I found all these podcasts and blogs, and this thing called the FIRE movement, and I was just like, “What is this thing?” And because I had such a long commute, I was able to immerse myself in that world and start to listen to all the podcasts at work, read all the blogs. And yes, most of them were by white men, but I was able to pull out information that related to me. So it’s like, “Maybe we don’t necessarily look alike, we don’t have the same background, but you just interviewed a teacher that was able to do this. And my husband is a teacher, so what can we learn from that?” Or there were cases where they-
Tori Dunlap:
Jamila, I don’t mean to interrupt you, can I stop you for a second? What you just said was so powerful and I just want to make sure people hear it.
Jamila Souffrant:
… yeah. Let’s go.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s just so incredibly important that, nobody’s story is going to be the same as yours. And I can speak to my own experience. My 100K at 25, that’s what I was known for a really long time. Her First $100K was saving that a 100K at 25. And I would see people comment on the Good Morning America story about me or the podcast episode and be like, “Well, you didn’t have student loans and I have student loans, so I’m not going to listen to you.” And there was so much privilege in my story and I’m the first to acknowledge that.
But there’s also things that you can take away from my story even if the story is different, and I love that what you did was like, “Yeah, probably not a lot of representation,” especially at that time for women, for black folks, but you were able to say, “You know what? I’m not able to start that multi-billion dollar software company and sell it, but I can do this thing that they advised me to do.” And I wish more people had that mindset when they approached personal finance as opposed to seeing those sexy, a 100K at 25 titles or millionaire by 30. And then just being like, “Well, that’s not even possible for me.”
Jamila Souffrant:
Well, listen. Ultimately, I think, and I also mentioned it in my book I say this is that there are going to be people who have more privileges than you, but you also have probably more privileges than someone else. And the idea is not to pinpoint and see the differences, which obviously there are going to be a lot, but it’s to pull what works for you or what you can relate to. And so from my story, I took what I needed, I took the information and the inspiration that I needed, and if something didn’t relate to me, I’m like, “Okay, that’s fine,” and I moved on. And so with that, I was able to craft my own idea and process of what my financial independence journey would look like. And to your point, when I first started, because I was listening to a lot of people who were into frugality and aggressively saving, that was my path that I took.
And that path did allow me to save and invest $169,000 in two years and then eventually quit my job. But as I started to go on my journey, I realized that the frugality as my lever into reaching financial independence was not going to be it. I needed to create a sustainable pathway as a wife, a mom of three living in New York City, that my path was going to be a little bit different. And so I adjusted what my journey looked like. I became more okay with spending on the experiences and not investing in saving as much, but I’m still on my journey to financial independence.
And I knew that there were so many people who would be more into this concept if they realized how amazing and diverse it could be, and it’s not one size fits all. But the attempt and pursuit of financial independence put you in such a better position and there’s no way you can fail because the goal is so audacious that let’s just say you say, “Okay, I need to reach $2 million to reach financial independence,” and then in 15 years or however many years you start, you say, “Dang, I only made it to 300,000.” That is better than probably not doing anything at all if you would have not started, so that’s my whole thing.
Tori Dunlap:
I literally had a phone call… I can remember this, a phone call with my dad because at this time I had gone public with my 100K goal and he was like, “So what happens if you don’t hit it?” And I’m like, “Then I have 80K,” and 80K at 25 is still an incredible accomplishment and pretty significant. But he was doing the, “You’ve announced this publicly, what if you can’t stick to it?” And I’m like, “Still, I get 80% of the way there, cool.” Even setting the goal and progressing towards it, even if you don’t manage to hit it, still puts you in a better spot than you were before.
Jamila Souffrant:
I call it moonshot goals. You aim for the moon and if you fail, you’re among the stars anyway. It’s better than not launching, so let’s just do it. Let’s go.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Well, and I think for women especially, we do feel like we set goals that we can a hundred percent achieve because we’re so scared of failure. We’re so scared of not being perfect. I feel like a true goal, you should have a feeling of going, “I don’t know if I can do this.” You should have this little inkling of, “This might not happen,” and that means it’s an actual goal because it’s something to aspire towards.
Jamila Souffrant:
Right. And I think it’s important to think of the questions you’re asking yourself if you are facing an audacious goal or thing you’re trying to accomplish because black and white questions, “Can I do this?” And the answer is yes or no. It’s hard to make if you don’t have all the necessary information. And so many people when-
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Jamila Souffrant:
… they’re starting their journey, you don’t know all the things. There’s some things I don’t even know now that I know along the way I’ll still pick up. It’s more important to ask things like, “What do I need to learn to make this goal accomplishable? How can I put myself in a better position?” And so I think the quality of our questions on our journey far better impact what happens versus, “Can I do this?” You don’t know enough yet. If you’re listening to this, “Can I do this?” Unless you’re going to say maybe or it’s something positive, but saying no from this position of not understanding that there’s so much, and I feel like I’m a testament to that because there’s five stages to reach financial independence that I talk about in the book.
The ultimate stage five is the captain stage. You never have to work again. I’m a stage below that. Stage four, the commander stage, work flexibility. So I was able to quit my job. I am work flexible, meaning I can take time off of Journey to Launch, pause what I want to do, not have to actively work, but I can’t do that forever. And I believe this is a stage that everyone can actually get to, but I would not have gotten to this stage without starting my journey to financial independence because I would not have pushed myself or realized the opportunities in front of me without starting the journey.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, it also gives you the flexibility to understand that, “I’m not going to have all the answers right now.” We were talking about writing a book before, I doubt you knew this entire process. Fuck, I didn’t know. I didn’t know this entire process getting started, but I knew I wanted that. I knew I wanted to write a book. So then it was like, I love that question of, “What do I need to learn in order to figure this out?” Because that tells me from the get-go, “You know what? You’re not going to have all the answers and that’s okay, and you’re going to figure it out as you go.”
Jamila Souffrant:
Right. And the thing is, we can do as much research from the outside in, and books can give you frameworks and tools, but everyone’s journey is unique. Just thinking about having kids and looking at other people, you never know what it’s like when you’re in the thick of being a parent until you’re there, just like writing a book. I have even a lot of friends that have written books and you talk to them, and had intimate conversations, but you don’t know what it’s like until you’re the one sitting at your computer trying to get the words out.
Tori Dunlap:
Let’s talk a little bit more about what that journey actually looked like for you working towards financial freedom or financial independence. What came up for you, especially during those first two years where you’re saving nearly 170K? What made you go, “Okay, I want to keep going in this?” Because one of the things that we know as finance experts and that we hear from people all the time, of course is, “Okay, I want to become debt free, but I am a year in, or I’m five years in, and how do I keep going? How do I stay consistent even when things are hard?”
Jamila Souffrant:
So I think for a lot of people with finances and a lot of things in life is that you don’t really pay attention until you have to pay attention to it or until you feel like something is happening, like there’s this moment. And for me, so I’d been okay with the way my life was until I got pregnant and I realized how precious my time and energy would be, and so I was in this desperate almost state to change my situation. So I always say that having kids, while not everyone has kids or wants to have kids, which is awesome if you don’t want kids, but for me, that changed everything about my life because I knew that something had to change about how I spent my time. So it forced me into wanting to reach a level of freedom, which then put a priority on saving and investing.
And at those moments in the beginning of my journey, it was more important to save and invest that money so that I can quit my job so that I could retire early than it was to take the luxurious vacation. I was more set on following a budget because my current situation was something that I needed to get out of. And I think a lot of people come to this crossroad where maybe they’re comfortable. So sometimes when you’re comfortable, you tend to stay in things longer because it’s like, “Oh, it’s not so bad,” but then you get to a point in your life where you’re just like, “No, I cannot do this anymore.” And so in those instances, you may be more motivated to make more drastic changes. And so for me, I was in my job, I was like, “I’m not doing this.”
My commute was so long, my husband’s commute was 15 minutes. So when it came to wanting to pursue financial independence and getting him on board, I was like, “Listen, you have the more cushy commute, but this is like I’m the one carrying the babies, even though I’m making more money and have the trajectory or making more money, this is not what I want to do.” And so it was important that we together got on this journey to do that. But I would say after I quit my job, after I was able to save up funds to pursue financial independence or my full-time business, Journey to Launch, I was able to switch strategies a bit because I was more comfortable and I was at a later journey or stage of the five stages that we’re talking… Well, I talked about to reach financial independence, so I was able to coast a bit more. And so now I’m in the position where I don’t have to be as aggressive with saving and investing. I can spend more on discretionary things and more on lifestyle things that we want to do.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I think you have no idea how many times on the show we’ve talked about this feeling of comfortability as a bad thing. And I don’t mean a safety, but as like, “You know what, this is fine.” If your life is just, this is fine, I encourage you to make a different choice. But typically what happens is, we are forced to make a different choice because something happens and we realize we’re no longer happy, or we get pregnant or we get fired or something significant happens in our lives and we go, “Okay, I need to make a change.”
Jamila Souffrant:
Yeah. It reminds me of a story I tell in the book, I believe Les Brown said it in his book first and he talked about this man passing a dog on a nail. So he’s passing a dog on a nail and there’s a guy sitting on the porch with that dog, and the dog is whimpering because his on the nail. So the guy passing by says to the man, “What’s wrong with the dog?” And he’s like, “He’s on a nail, he’s whimpering.” And he’s like, “Why doesn’t he just get up?” And the guy on the porch says, “Because it’s not hurting him bad enough,” and I just thought that was so interesting. Sometimes we’ll have things that are thorns in our sides that annoy us, that we’ll complain about, and we all do it, but then there has to be something within us or externally that sometimes pushes us to do something different.
Tori Dunlap:
A lot of times with our financial goals and our journey to, whether that’s financial independence or becoming debt-free, we treat it like a crash diet where to our point earlier, it’s like, “Okay, we’re going to do a bunch of things and we’re going to get our shit together finally,” and we go too hard, too fast, or we cut everything out of our lives that is actually joyful in order to pursue this thing, but that’s not sustainable. How do we find that balance between progressing towards our goals but also towards finding joy in our life? And is there an exercise that someone can do to find that balance specifically when pursuing something like financial independence?
Jamila Souffrant:
Yeah. So I think understanding where you are on the path to financial independence is important. So of those five stages, the first stage is getting to financial stability, making sure you could pay your bills. The second stage is getting out of consumer debt. The third stage is reaching security where you now are able to invest more aggressively to build up your assets. The fourth stage is reaching work flexibility, and the fifth stage is ultimate financial independence. So knowing where you are on that spectrum or in those journeys is important. And then understanding something I call guac lifestyle levels so that I fashioned after my love for guacamole. But guac one through five, level one is you don’t need to spend a lot of money to be happy. You can literally, you’ll never buy guac at a restaurant. It will never be worth it to you because you can make it at home. Guac level five is you have a guac factory, you have a private chef making you guacamole, and there’s a spectrum.
So understanding what your preference is and where you are on the financial journey will impact how you feel as you’re making changes. So someone who doesn’t need a lot to live, guac lifestyle level one, but is just starting their journey to financial independence, the sacrifices may not feel like sacrifices because you’re like, “Oh, I live off 20,000. I could do that. I can not do certain things and still be happy.” But if you are someone who desires more lifestyle upgrades and things that you enjoy, a higher guac level and you are still at your starting point in your financial journey, you’ll have to really be more realistic about what that journey looks like. So you may not be able to get out of debt in two or three years because you’re not willing to give up the things you enjoy. And so it’s a trade-off and you have to understand those trade-offs.
And if you consciously make the trade-off to say, “I know I can pay off that debt faster,” like let’s say in a year earlier, “but I don’t want to sacrifice going out to eat. I don’t want to sacrifice that vacation,” and you understand that trade-off, then by all means go right ahead. But if you realize that that’s not something you want to sacrifice a time, then you make that difference. So it’s really a matter of sitting down and figuring out. I walked through these steps in the book, where are you with your guac lifestyle level? Is it something that you want to improve or are you comfortable where you are now? Do you want to spend more in things that you like or not? And then where are you on your journey or level, and do those things match?
And you might say to yourself, “You know what? I actually need to spend more in the now versus my financial goals.” Then how much room do you have in your budget to do that? And then what are ways that you’re going to afford to do that? Are you going to spend less in other areas that don’t matter or are you going to make more money? Which so many people forget about the making more money part in their financial journey and it’s only thinking about cutting back, but you have to, or I recommend to look at both sides of the equation, the income and expenses equation to help sustain whatever lifestyle that you like so that you can enjoy the actual journey.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and that’s the thing about making more money is in theory that is limitless. Now, we live under hustle culture bullshit capitalism, but there’s only so much that you can cut on the other side. You still have to pay your mortgage, you still have to buy your groceries. You get to a point where there’s no longer anything you can cut and your life’s so miserable because you’ve cut everything that makes you happy. So often the answer might be like, “Yeah, how do I find a better paying job? How do I negotiate a raise? How do I take on some more hours if I can be flexible enough to do that?” So I really appreciate you saying that because I think that often gets missed by people.
Jamila Souffrant:
Yeah. And there’s the things that you want ultimately to experience and do once you feel financially independent or once you are financially independent. But I say in order to enjoy the journey and to have freedom, discover what that looks like now no matter where you are on your financial journey, even if you can’t afford to live the lifestyle you want. Because I know that, Tori, a lot of people who have money and they’re still not happy or who can consider themselves financially independent but don’t feel secure. And so while yes, there’s a certain level of money that we all need to meet our basic needs, the journey, I believe, that we are on externally to reach financial independence really starts internally, and waiting until you reach the number, whether you pay off debt or you have enough saved or invested to then discover who you are and what makes you happy, or to start living your life only makes you actually feel worse when you get there and realize that you’re still not happy, so it’s really important to figure out those things today.
And it can look like you can say to yourself, “When I’m financially independent and have more control over my time, I’ll run a marathon or I’ll do more of these activities. I’ll call my friends more, I’ll hang out,” which are all great things I’ve said myself too when I thought about my dream life. And then when I come back to where I am, I’m like, “How can I do those things now?” So the friends that I say I’m going to hang out with that I have not called in six months, how about I start making time to call them now? Or how do I incorporate those joys, the things I want to do when I reach financial independence in my life today?
Tori Dunlap:
You talk in the book about this idea of a broken soundtrack. Talk to me about what that is and some of the advice that you gave for it.
Jamila Souffrant:
Yeah. So the broken soundtrack actually is from a book, Jon Acuff. And so he coined the term, I believe, and named his book that. But it just refers to this soundtrack that we have in our head, this replay of words. And so imagine that you are always, or sometimes singing a song that you don’t even like. So even if you hear something on the radio and you’re like, “I didn’t even like this song,” but then you found yourself singing it because it’s subconsciously in your brain. That is how we often think about or have these subconscious thoughts, whether about ourselves, about money, about everything around us. And so it’s important to understand what those soundtracks are, what those internal thoughts and dialogue are because a lot of it is subconscious, but if you can even just know it’s happening, it’s a first step into changing the dialogue or changing the station in your mind about something you’re feeling.
And I know a lot of stuff when we talk about the mindset and habits, we are so quick in terms of the personal finance space to work on the external things like, “How do we get out of debt? How do we make more?” All important things, but I really do feel that the intangible things that always can’t be measured, like our mindset and habits, even though there’s some habits that can be measured, is really what makes our changes and actions outwardly sustainable. Because without the mindset and habits, we wouldn’t even be attempting. If I don’t think that I can do something or if I’m thinking negatively, I’m not even going to attempt it, or when I’m doing it, I’m going to give off bad vibes or have an attitude. And so ultimately the soundtracks, how we think, how we feel, to me are actually more important than what externally is happening.
Tori Dunlap:
I say all the time that people think money is about the math or that personal finance, it’s about how good you are with numbers. It’s not. It’s not about Excel spreadsheets or charts or even compound interest. It’s about your emotions. It’s about managing your mindset, managing your bodily responses sometimes to things like when you break out in sweats before you go to negotiate or you are spending money you don’t have to try to make yourself feel better, that’s an emotional thing, and that’s not really about the numbers, that’s about how you feel.
Jamila Souffrant:
Yeah. Balancing that is not easy because the numbers matter-
Tori Dunlap:
No.
Jamila Souffrant:
… but it’s the internal things too. That journey inward matters also.
Tori Dunlap:
As you’ve progressed and you were mentioning progressing on this path of financial independence, you were talking about these journey or stages of where you’re at. Are you where you thought you’d be in this six year journey? And what does that look like as you are staying consistent but also achieving those milestones, but also hitting roadblocks?
Jamila Souffrant:
Yeah. I’m actually in a better place than I ever thought I’d be without having even reached financial independence because I almost have almost all of the perks of financial independence, obviously without all the money. And so that means really while I have a business, and so I do need to show up and record podcasts and do certain things, but for the most part, actually I’m in control of my schedule and I choose when I work, I choose what I can do for work. I can turn things down, whether that’s brand partnerships or interviews, I don’t have to do it. And I’m able to have the time with my kids and pick them up, and now they’re into sports, so there’s all these things that we have to coordinate to get them places, which I actually love. And so when I’m sometimes running in the morning or going to the gym after dropping them off, I have to say, “Wow, I can’t believe this is my life.”
And it’s why I feel so strongly about spreading this message of attempting to reach financial independence because you’d be so surprised at how quickly your life can change once you start it. Because when I started, I thought I would have to have all the money in the bank and my investment accounts to have the life I have now. And of course, we can all have more money, I can have more money. I’m never going to turn that down, but you have to know your enough point. And so for me, I have an enough point, I can earn a lot more money in my business, but there are just certain things I’m just like, “I’m not doing,” and that feels good to be able to do that. So I think I’m in a much better place than I thought I could be. And it just reiterates why this journey is so important for other people to find and start.
Tori Dunlap:
The first stage of the journey you mentioned in the book is basically somebody feeling panicked. And I imagine, I know that’s a lot of people listening right now who are just like… I mean, maybe they’re even beyond that because listening to the show, but they’re so freaked out, and I call it my book, the ostrich effect. We know that it’s a common phrase in the personal finance community of burying your head in the sand, act like your problems don’t exist like, “I’ll figure that out later.” How do you just get started or get past that stage of, “I’m so overwhelmed, I don’t even look at my debt because I’m so scared of what I’ll find. How do I actually start conquering this in a way that doesn’t make me feel worse?”
Jamila Souffrant:
So regardless of this stage, so many people don’t understand or know the stages because it’s a new concept to them that I created. But so many people are further along than they think because they don’t know their numbers. And really the first starting point is to sit down and take an assessment of where you currently are with your numbers. So that is income, really understanding what you make, what you spend. So many people don’t really understand that. It’s just like going on their bank accounts every day or out of their accounts and they figure it out at the end of the month. And you need to understand what that looks like. You need to know what your assets are, what you own, and your liabilities is what you owe. So those four tangible parts of your financial life you need to know. And I always say that is a scary thing because it’s a lot. You have to sit down, you’ve got to find all the old investment accounts maybe and get the login information. So for some people, I’m the kind of person I’m going to do that…
I was so excited to get out of my situation, I did that in a day or two. And some people are like, I have a friend. It takes her a lot longer to do things and that’s fine. So it would take maybe her two weeks or three weeks to slowly start doing things. But it’s really understanding where you are with your numbers because if you don’t know, then you won’t know what you need to start changing and to start doing. And to know that you might surprise yourself, you may not be as bad off as you think. So many people I find say, “Oh my gosh, I don’t want to look. I think it’s so bad,” and they’re making it worse in their brain by not knowing. And then by knowing it helps set off, “Okay, at least I know that this is my starting point.” And knowing your starting point helps you then figure out that end point for yourself.
Tori Dunlap:
And for the people listening who it is as bad as they thought or worse, it only gets worse if you don’t look at it. It’s temporarily more comfortable because you’re in denial. And that’s harsh to say, but that’s what’s happening. And it’s totally understandable because you feel shame about your debt or because you don’t know the way forward, but it’s only going to get worse the longer you don’t look at it.
Jamila Souffrant:
And Tori, I know you’ve spoken to, whether it’s your clients or people in your audience and on interviews and so have I, of different starting points, people who are in different situations. And you’ve come across whether they were younger or older, or have a ton of debt, not making good income, all these different things that compiled their financial story. And I know that no matter what those were, for some people, they were able to make progress because they started. And it’s better to understand that about yourself, and that’s why I say the mindset and habits part, but especially mindset is so important because you have to first believe that it’s possible for you and that you deserve it, and you do deserve it.
I always say this, if you have a dream or thought in your head, it’s almost like it’s your future self giving you that memory because why would God or whatever you believe in have planted that in you, because there are some things I just don’t think about. I don’t think about going to space. It’s not a dream of mine, but there are some people who do. And so we just have our unique goals and dreams, and there’s some things that I feel for you if you’re thinking it, the fact that you’re even listening to this podcast, take it as a sign that it’s possible for you. You just have to believe that it is.
Tori Dunlap:
I think that’s so powerful and it’s so important to… I mean, as cheesy as it sounds, start picturing what your day-to-day life looks like, what your mindset looks like if you don’t have debt hanging over you anymore, or if you’re not going and working for somebody that you don’t respect and doing work that doesn’t fulfill you, or at least that you can’t tolerate. Figuring out what can your life look like and then almost working backwards, deciding, “Okay, this is definitively what I want my life to look like or what I want my days to look like, or what I want my relationship or my career to look like. And then how do I use money as a tool to get there?”
Jamila Souffrant:
Right. In the book, I also mentioned Debbie Millman, who is a very just renowned designer. She talks about this exercise that she learned from someone else, but it’s called a 10-year dream life exercise. And we’ve all heard of exercises where you just think about what you want your life to look like, but I just loved when I heard her say it on a podcast the way she explained it, and she said, “Go into detail about this dream day of yours, not just the life, but literally what sheets are you waking up in? What color are they? What do you smell.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Ramit talks about this too.
Jamila Souffrant:
Yes. So basically go into depth on what your dream life is and minute by minute, hour by hour, it’s so funny because I’ve done this before, but maybe it’s my ADHD, I can’t always get into this. The minute I’m like, “Skip over that, that’s too much to think about.”
Tori Dunlap:
I mean, I need to do it again too. It’s been a while since I’ve thought about it. And Ramit says too, he goes, “You’re really good at figuring out what you don’t want versus what you do want.”
Jamila Souffrant:
So that’s another aside you can figure out. People say, “This is my why.” I have also, “What’s your why not?” “I will not do this because of this.” And so I think thinking about what your life really looks like, then you can start to actually pull out the things that actually have nothing to do with money, and what can you actually incorporate into your life now and the things that need more money because if you said your dream life was waking up on an exotic island, then you’d work towards that. But there are some things though that your dream life you want that can be incorporated now no matter where you are in your financial journey.
Tori Dunlap:
You say in the book that you believe everyone should pursue financial independence because of who it helps you become. Who did you become?
Jamila Souffrant:
Oh, that’s powerful, Tori. That’s a powerful question. I became someone who has the ability to inspire, to learn because I’m still always learning, to educate. I am my biggest asset. But I think when I first started this journey, it was always, or I thought more about external assets and putting all the money in the investment accounts and what that looks like. And I think this has actually been something in me all along, especially again, shout out to my mom for instilling this in me. This is the kind of mom I hope that I’m being to my kids, is that you are your biggest asset. I’m my biggest asset. And so no matter what the external situation is, whether the business is making tons of money, whether the book hits a list or not, those external things, they matter, but they don’t matter as much as how I feel and what my effort is.
And so as me being my biggest asset, that means nothing can be taken away from me. The markets can crash, the business can fail, things can fail outside. But who I am, what I’ve learned on this journey, who I’ve become learning to speak up, building a business, writing a book, making friends, networking, all these things that require you to really step outside of yourself, me being my biggest asset and learning how to nurture that and respect that has been, I guess, who I’ve become is learning that and hopefully teaching other people that they’re their biggest asset also.
Tori Dunlap:
I absolutely love that. I got chills when you said that. I was like, “Taking me to church, baby.” My whole mission of my work and what I’ve realized in my own life and in friends’ lives and all of the research we’ve done is society in the world wants to make women feel so small all the time, and wants to make you distrust your own intuition and distrust your own power. And if there’s anything that we can do in this world, it’s show up as the biggest, best versions of ourselves and trust that we are deserving of all of the beautiful things and that we are… I love that we are our own assets. We are our own way to get out of situations we don’t want to be in anymore. We are our own way of putting ourselves in beautiful, fulfilling, safe, joyful situations, even in a world and a society that demands, we don’t.
Jamila Souffrant:
Yeah. There’s so much obviously going on in the world, and at any moment some things are more public than others, but in every pocket of areas of the world, there’s something crazy happening. And when you think and when you focus on that, it’s sad, it’s depressing. When you think about all the bad in the world, it’s horrible. And I think there are some people who dedicate their lives to fighting these bigger issues or smaller pockets of issues that are amazing, and I think you can do that too. I think as someone where we are talking about money, it’s so hard sometimes to talk about money because we know that there’s part of what we can do to help ourselves, but we know there’s also external things from the top down that need to change that will take years, decades, like generations-
Tori Dunlap:
The systemic barriers.
Jamila Souffrant:
… right.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Jamila Souffrant:
And that’s hard for people because some people are just like, “Well, why try? Because what is my little blip of a life going to change or do?” And I get it. But for me, the reason why I’m trying is that I have kids now, and I want the world to be better for them. I want to give them opportunities, but I also feel since starting this journey and this brand, Journey to Launch, and now the book is how much you do, how it impacts other people.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Jamila Souffrant:
And what I’ve learned too is you don’t need to have a podcast or brand or book to do that. You can impact those people in your day-to-day lives, whether you’re listening to this and then you tell your friends, “I just heard about this thing, and maybe it could be helpful for you to learn about too,” that is impactful. That’s bringing something to the world that wasn’t there before, helping someone else. And that’s what keeps me going and makes me want to help keep continuing to spread this message.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and as somebody showing up as the fullest version of themselves inspires other people too as well. And if you’re a member of any marginalized group, you becoming financially independent is an act of protest. You becoming financially well and stable and not having to answer to anybody means that, you are living the life that you want that is again, safe and joyful and pleasurable and all of these things without somebody else controlling that.
Jamila Souffrant:
Yes. Amen.
Tori Dunlap:
So tell me about your podcast and about your book, and everywhere we can find you.
Jamila Souffrant:
Yes. So Your Journey to Financial Freedom, my book will be available everywhere December 5th, and you can find that everywhere you buy books. But you can go to yourjourneytofinancialfreedom.com to figure out where you can buy it. From there, amazonbookshop.org, and then get a special bonus when you buy it. And I’m so excited for this book to be in the world. And then you can listen to the podcast, Journey to Launch wherever you listen to this amazing podcast. Available where I talk about financial freedom and independence and a way that you can reach it that is sustainable and joyful, and from a perspective of someone who’s still figuring it out, but it’s like your bestie on the way to making amazing life changes.
Tori Dunlap:
I love it. Thank you. I’ve been an admirer of your work for a very long time, and so I’m just so excited. And this is her first book, you all, so please support it. And we’re just so excited to have you on the show, and thanks for your expertise.
Jamila Souffrant:
I was going to say, I always love when I hear from people who listen to me on a podcast and they comment or say what they learned or what stood out for them. So I’m @Journeytolaunch on social media, on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. I mostly hang out on Instagram, so if you’re listening and you want to take a screenshot, tag me and Tori so we can see that you are listening and maybe your favorite takeaway.
Tori Dunlap:
I love it. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much to Jamila for joining us on this episode. So impactful, so insightful, her book, Your Journey to Financial Freedom is out now and is available wherever you get your books. You can also subscribe to the Journey to Launch podcast, as well as follow her. We have all of the links in the show notes. Thank you so much Financial Feminists for being here. As always, if you enjoyed the show, feel free to subscribe, rate, review, send it to your friends. Just you hitting one button, the subscriber, the plus button, wherever you’re listening right now, helps us continue to produce the show. It’s the easiest way to support us. Thank you so much. Hope you have a great rest of your week, and we’ll catch you soon. Bye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer, Tamisha Grant, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Elizabeth McCumber, Amanda Leffew, Masha Bachmetyeva, Kailyn Sprinkle. Researched by Ariel Johnson, audio engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe and theme Music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, for Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over one million women negotiate salary, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of almost 250,000 on Instagram and more than 1.6 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
