Have you ever wondered how trauma shapes your decision-making when it comes to money?
In this episode of Financial Feminist, host Tori Dunlap is joined by Ellyce Fulmore, financial educator and author of “Keeping Finance Personal,” where they discuss the realm of personal finance through the lens of identity and how various aspects of identity, from gender and sexuality to neurodivergence, can significantly influence financial decisions and shape our relationship with money.
The Emotional Landscape of Money
The conversation kicks off by unraveling the intricate connection between identity and money. Ellyce draws from her extensive research and certification in “The Trauma of Money” program, highlighting how various forms of trauma can shape an individual’s relationship with money. She shares that money, being inherently emotional and intertwined with societal definitions of safety and worthiness, often triggers trauma responses — ”When we’re talking about making financial decisions, you’re no longer able to make decisions in a way that you usually would…instead, you’re in this fight or flight mode where you’re going to make a more rash decision, one that’s in the moment and may not be the decision that you’d usually make because you’re in this trauma-activated state.”
Ellyce emphasizes the diverse manifestations of financial trauma, including avoidance behaviors, overspending, underspending, and codependency, shedding light on the complex ways trauma can impact financial decision-making.
Societal Expectations
The conversation progresses to discuss the pervasive societal expectation that individuals should inherently know how to manage money, a sentiment rarely applied to other skills in life. Tori and Ellyce challenge this norm, emphasizing that financial literacy is a skill that can be acquired and refined. They explore the identity-based approach to money, debunking the myth that being “good” or “bad” with money is an inherent trait. Ellyce shares the importance of understanding money as a learned skill and urges listeners not to tie their self-worth to their current financial situation.
Tori reminds us —“It’s not an identity. You weren’t born with the good with money gene or not. It’s just a thing that you can learn. And it’s not your fault if you struggle with your finances, because you probably weren’t given the tools to succeed.”
Identity and Finance
A standout feature of the episode is Ellyce’s commitment to amplifying voices traditionally underrepresented in the finance space. Through interviews with individuals from diverse backgrounds – trans folks, those with disabilities, indigenous perspectives, and non-binary individuals – the conversation showcases the unique intersection of identity and finance. These interviews, integrated into the book, offer invaluable insights into how different identities navigate and manage their finances.
One powerful story revolves around a trans man named Stevie, emphasizing the significance of reclaiming aspects of one’s identity. Tori and Ellyce explore how spending decisions, often deemed financially unwise on paper, can profoundly enhance the quality of life for individuals navigating their identity-based financial journeys. Ellyce shares, “One of those is getting manicures, which is a monthly expense that many people would say is frivolous or unnecessary, but for him, it’s a way to represent who he is and to take back that sense of self.”
Bonus: Money Tips for Canadians
Shifting gears, Tori and Ellyce discuss money-specific advice for Canadians. As a Canadian, Ellyce shares some of her favorite resources and platforms. She recommends online brokerages like Questrade or Wealthsimple and suggests prioritizing Tax-Free Savings Accounts (TFSA) based on individual situations. Additionally, Ellyce introduces specific Canadian “money hacks,” including the KOHO card and the First Time Home Buyers Account, providing a unique perspective for the Canadian audience.
Ellyce’s Links:
Keeping Finance Personal (Ellyce’s book)
RESOURCES:
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Meet Ellyce
Ellyce Fulmore is a queer and neurodivergent financial educator, content creator, soon-to-be published author and the founder of Queerd Co., a financial literacy company. Her approach to financial literacy goes beyond the conventional, focusing on the intersectionality of identities and lived experiences. Ellyce is passionate about helping her online community of over half a million find the right tools, strategies and perspective to create a life where financial stability and joy coexist.
Transcript:
Ellyce Fulmore:
So when you fully understand your identity and how it’s impacted your money story and the way that you move through the world, then you have this greater understanding of how that’s going to then impact your money. In terms of financial management, I think that your identity really impacts the ways that you choose to spend your money and also the areas of your life that might require more money, that other people without those identities may not have to spend money on. So for me personally, I take ADHD medication, so that is a monthly expense that I have. And a lot of people are on different medications. That’s an increased monthly expense. It could also mean different things like accommodations or adaptations that you need in your daily life.
Tori Dunlap:
Hi, Financial Feminist. Welcome back to the show. Welcome to the new year. We’re so excited to see you. Thanks for being here. Thanks for coming back to the show. And if you’re new to the show, we’re so excited to have you. My name is Tori. I run Her First 100K, which produces this podcast. And I am a money expert, I’m a multimillionaire, I’m a New York Times bestselling author, and I fight the patriarchy by making you rich.
Couple housekeeping things: please subscribe to the show wherever you’re listening right now. It is the easiest way to support our work. That literal just one tap of a button allows us to keep producing the show and get amazing guests. So we thank you for your support. And if you’re on Spotify, feel free to interact down below. You might not know, but there’s a little thing where you can go, a little box where you can ask questions, where you can comment on the show and share your biggest learnings. And it allows us to also do the best work that we can for you. So thanks for being here.
All right, we’re excited for today’s guest. This has been a long time coming and something that you have all requested. And she also has a new book out, so we’re really excited for her to be on the show today. Ellyce Fulmore is a queer and neurodivergent financial educator, content creator, soon to be published author, and the founder of Queerd.Co, a financial literacy company.
Her approach to financial literacy goes beyond the conventional, focusing on the intersectionality of identities and lived experiences. Ellyce is passionate about helping her online community of over half a million find the right tools, strategies, and perspective to create a life where financial stability and joy coexist. Her book Keeping Finance Personal comes out on January 23rd. [inaudible 00:02:19].
In this episode, we discuss what it really means when we say, “Personal finance is personal,” the idea and the implementation of identity ROI, of managing your finances based on your identity and your own life and characteristics. We talk about finances for traditionally underrepresented groups like trans folks, neurodivergent people, polyamorous people. And we do a little bonus lightning round of some of Ellyce’s favorite Canadian personal finance recommendations. So if you are Canadian, this is also especially going to be a good episode for you. And without further ado, let’s go ahead and get into it.
But first a word from our sponsors. The Lava Lamp behind you is just iconic.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Thank you so much. I put it in my author bio as, like, “Ellyce lives in Calgary, Alberta with her partner in giant Lava Lamp,” because it’s like my child.
Tori Dunlap:
I remember I asked for one for my 10th birthday and I got it, and I was very, very, very thrilled about it.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Oh my gosh, that’s amazing.
Tori Dunlap:
It was very exciting. It’s like pink… if you’re not watching on YouTube, it is pink and bright and beautiful. And it’s glorious.
Ellyce Fulmore:
It’s like two feet tall. It’s huge and it’s my prized possession.
Tori Dunlap:
It makes me want to get one. Truly, it makes me want to get one.
Ellyce Fulmore:
You really should. The increase to my happiness and productivity I feel like is exponential.
Tori Dunlap:
Tell me more. Tell me more about it, like the productivity.
Ellyce Fulmore:
It creates such a nice vibe in my office. And then when it gets darker, my whole office is in this little pink glow and it makes me want to… you know in the winter when it gets dark so early?
Tori Dunlap:
Mm-hmm.
Ellyce Fulmore:
I’m still feeling like it’s a cozy vibe. I’m still ready to work instead of a, “Oh, it’s dark and gloomy,” vibe.
Tori Dunlap:
I am being influenced, right?
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m literally searching Lava Lamp. What do they even cost now?
Ellyce Fulmore:
It’s like $150. It’s pricey.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s a business expense, though. It goes in the office.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s a business expense.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Exactly. Yeah. And it’s, in my opinion, worth it.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh my God. I just got like every single color that’s available. Okay, well this is what I’m doing after we get off. I’m very excited. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. We were talking before we jumped on that it feels like we’ve known each other for a long time because the personal finance community is both very supportive and also surprisingly tiny in a lot of ways, especially TikTok finance community. So we’re just really excited to have you. One of the things that we love asking money experts who come on the show is if they can share their first money memory. The first time you remember thinking about money.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Okay. This is funny because I wrote about this in my book and I actually said, “I don’t know what my first money memory is,” because I don’t remember anything from my childhood. But I’ve been thinking about it for months since I wrote my book. And I think that my first money memory is, when I was younger, I was in recreational gymnastics and I really wanted to try out for the competitive team. And I remember my parents telling me, “We can’t afford that, so you can’t try out for the competitive team.” I think that is the first… that is as far back as I remember, and that’s probably my first money memory.
Tori Dunlap:
Honestly kind of devastating.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Where you were just like, “Money is the thing that’s holding me back from being able to pursue this thing.”
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah, exactly. But I ended up being able to try out for the competitive team later on when my dad started getting promoted and making more money, so all is well. I ended up doing competitive gymnastics for a large portion of my life. But it was devastating at the time.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. One of the things that you talk about in your experience a lot that we really wanted to highlight is your experience with ADHD and autism. Can you walk us through your story? And learning more about this, how it changed your relationship both to yourself and with money?
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah, so I am diagnosed with ADHD and self-diagnosed autistic. And the autism part of it’s something I haven’t actually talked about a lot and I’m still exploring myself, but the ADHD aspect I’ve done a lot of research and learned a lot about. And for me, that was actually a five-year process of seeing different healthcare professionals and trying to get answers. And at the time it was because I was experiencing a lot of fatigue and brain fog. And so I was seeing a bunch of different doctors. I got sent for blood tests. I got sent to an ears, nose, and throat specialist, allergy testing, daytime and nighttime sleep studies. So many tests.
And I kept being told that it was just stress or I had anxiety, and that was the cause of it. And at the time I didn’t know a lot about ADHD, so that wasn’t even on my radar, and I just was really frustrated and seeing all these different doctors. My symptoms worsened a lot during the pandemic and I was laid off from my part-time job, which then resulted in me not being able to take care of myself at home. Really struggling to prioritize tasks, really get anything done.
And like a lot of other people, I started spending a lot of time on TikTok, which was what introduced me to ADHD and specifically how ADHD affected women, because my perception of ADHD was the stereotypical definition of the young boy who’s really hyperactive and can’t pay attention in class. And because I had always done well in school, I had immediately wrote that off. So as I started to see more content on TikTok, I went and did my own research and started learning a lot more about it and how it affects women.
And I was 100% convinced at that point that I had ADHD. So I went to my doctor and I said, “I know I have ADHD. You need to test me for it.” And that is what eventually led to my diagnosis. And since then it has honestly changed, I feel like, everything about my life, because the way that I view the world, the way that I interact with people, the way that I work, the way that I spend my money and manage my money, that’s all affected by my ADHD.
And I think, in terms of my relationship with money, it’s actually improved it a lot because I now had the understanding of why I had struggled with my finances in the past and why specifically I had struggled with impulse spending, racking up debt, struggles sticking to a budget and paying bills on time, and things like that. So it actually allowed me to release a lot of the shame I was feeling because I now understood that it wasn’t my fault and that my brain is just wired differently. It also allowed me to figure out the different systems and tools that worked well for my brain and how I need to do things differently in order to have a good relationship with money.
So yeah, it’s hard to almost verbalize it because it honestly has affected every single area of my life. And I think that it’s mostly been positive, but it also has been hard in a lot of ways. I think it kind of comes in waves. Initially I was very relieved that I had answers, and I felt validated that I was struggling with something and finally I had answers. But I also had waves of grief, almost, of how my life could’ve been different, and how I could’ve done things differently. And replaying situations in my head that now made sense and had context but didn’t make sense at the time.
So yeah, it’s been a process. And it still happens where I have moments, even now, that I remember from my childhood, and I’m like, “Wow, this is why this happened,” or, “This is why I acted this way,” or, “This is why I struggled with this thing.” So yeah, it’s been a very interesting journey, but overall it’s really been helpful for my relationship with money.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and one of the things you said that I really want to highlight is that, whether you’re neuro-spicy or not, I think that there’s so much shame of course around money, but specifically like, “This is the way I should be doing it. And why can’t I do it this way?” And then beating yourself up when you can’t. And I think offering yourself grace and understanding is so crucial, but one of the most difficult skills to learn. I love that you got to the point where you were able to contextualize your decisions and offer yourself some grace for that.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah. And something I say a lot for everyone, but also especially if you’re neurodivergent, is that it’s not your fault because you were never given the tools to succeed. Especially if you’re neurodivergent, so much of the financial education and systems and tools out there were designed for and by neurotypical people.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Ellyce Fulmore:
So of course it’s not going to work for you, because it wasn’t designed for your brain and your brain works differently. But I think also just applies to everyone, that many people were not taught about money. And so it’s not your fault when you weren’t given the tools that you’re now struggling with money.
Tori Dunlap:
What was one of the breakthrough moments for you when you felt like, “Oh, so this is the key to making this work for me?”
Ellyce Fulmore:
I feel like it was a lot of trial and error and also, actually, a lot of breakthroughs that happened in other areas of my life. When I got diagnosed with ADHD I started to look up resources and tools and learn more about how to live with ADHD and set up systems in your life that make things easier. And so there’s a lot of education out there on those things. So I started to learn how to make meal prepping and cooking meals and cleaning my home easier, and doing my bedtime routine and getting to bed on a good time. Making those things easier.
And that helped me learn more about what things motivated me, how my brain worked. And then that led to the realization that I could apply some of these strategies to my finances. And I think if I had to think of a specific example for finances, one of the tools that was a kind of aha moment for me was using an allowance card. There’s a card called KOHO here in Canada that’s like a reloadable… it’s basically like a debit MasterCard, but you load the money on and it’s a separate card with its separate app. And I started using that for my allowance and giving myself a set amount of money to spend each month on that allowance card.
And it was surprisingly so easy to stick to. And that was a moment of realization of, I need to have structure but also freedom, because with my allowance card I have a set amount to spend each month, but then I can spend it on whatever I want. And I didn’t give myself category breakdowns in terms of spending this much on eating out and spending this much on coffee. It was just like, “Here’s your spending money. Go and do it.” And that idea of having structure but still having freedom has really helped me in a lot of areas with my money. And I think, for me, it’s kind of a competition between the ADHD part of my brain and the autistic part of my brain because a lot of people with autism really thrive off of structure, and a lot of people with ADHD really don’t like structure. So that’s been a way that I’ve been able to find that middle ground for me. And then the rest has just been a lot of trial and error of figuring out what works.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. It’s very similar to our bucket system that I teach in my book and on the show. It’s just like overcategorization never worked for me, and it was just stressful. And so just giving yourself a set amount of money for fun or for your goals or for your expenses, I think it’s just a lot more flexible and it’s a lot more doable for real life and how it works.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah, totally.
Tori Dunlap:
There’s very rarely times where I’m like, “Oh yes. I have spent my designated $20 this month on makeup.” It doesn’t work that way. It’s, I’m spending $500 Sephora’s annual sale. I’m doing that once a year to stock up on stuff.
So I echo that and appreciate that, of that flexibility that is needed.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah. And I think what you just mentioned, when you have… I know that the rigidity works for some people but I think, for a lot of people, when you have those really rigid categories, then when you don’t meet those categories or you’re not spending the right amount, then you feel guilt and shame around falling off of your plan or not doing things properly, when in reality you could still be under budget for the whole month but just some categories are over and some categories are under. So I think that having those larger buckets is very helpful in a lot of ways.
Tori Dunlap:
So you talk a lot about identity-based financial education and management. Can you talk about what this looks like for you specifically, and then what it might look like for someone else who has an identity like is a queer person, is a trans person, is disabled, et cetera?
Ellyce Fulmore:
When you fully understand your identity and how it’s impacted your money story and the way that you move through the world, then you have this greater understanding of how that’s going to then impact your money. And when you have that understanding, you can make decisions on how you choose to spend your money, manage your money, the type of education that you seek out that is going to support the identity that you have. So for me personally, because I’m neurodivergent, any type of educational material that I’m consuming has to be delivered in a format that’s going to make sense for my brain.
So for some people, that might mean that they need to listen to it while they’re doing something else. It might mean that they need a lot of visuals. They might need to be taught by somebody else. Whatever that looks like. So it’s like the way that you learn information and also the spaces that feel safe for you. And that comes down to surrounding yourself with people that make you feel seen and heard and understood. So that plays into the financial education part of it. And then in terms of financial management, I think that your identity really impacts the ways that you choose to spend your money and also the areas of your life that might require more money, that other people without those identities may not have to spend money on.
So for me personally, I take ADHD medication, so that is a monthly expense that I have. And a lot of people are on different medications. That’s an increased monthly expense. It could also mean different things like accommodations or adaptations that you need in your daily life. For me, my partner and I are both neurodivergent, and something we struggle with is grocery shopping and meal planning. And so we get grocery delivery, which is an additional fee to do so.
We also pay for the Instacart subscription. But that has cut a task out of our life that really was very stressful for us, was really overstimulating. And if I had to go grocery shopping, that was my entire Saturday. It would take all of my spoons for the day. And so I spend more money in certain areas of my life to make my life easier and to make daily living tasks more doable. And I think that applies to anyone else who is disabled or has mental health challenges. Sometimes you need to invest more money in your wellbeing, but doing so is going to help you live your life in a way that is aligned with who you are, your values, and support you in a way that otherwise wouldn’t be supported if you weren’t embracing that part of your identity and really thinking about, how can I use money to support this aspect of my identity?
But regardless of the identity that you hold, everyone has an identity. And I think that it’s important just to really examine what that means to you and what parts of your identity you’re proud of, what parts of your identity maybe you’re trying to hide from or that you’re embarrassed of, because those could also be driving your spending behaviors in other ways.
Tori Dunlap:
This is not really a question because it’s going to be, how do we solve systemic oppression? And neither of us have the concrete answer to that, other than policy change and all of that. But what you just said is so crucial in terms of also thinking about bare necessities in terms of safety and a place to live that is consistent. And a lot of people, and especially a lot of people in minority groups, don’t even have that.
And so it’s so crucial, I think, when we talk about money and personal finance, we’re talking about these things that make your life better or are able to accommodate how you feel or how you approach the world or how your brain is different is so important. But for many people that’s not even an option because they’re just trying to find safety or trying to find stability. And unfortunately that’s not a requirement in terms of how we treat people.
I don’t know. It’s not really a question, but it’s just something I’ve struggled with a lot and would love to hear your thoughts about, is it’s like this is where personal finance is beyond just our personal choices, and where we need government support, and where we need policy change, and where we need all of these things, because safety shouldn’t be something that we have to pay for. You know what I’m saying?
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know. Again, it’s not a question. I just wanted to talk to you about it.
Ellyce Fulmore:
100%. I’m totally with you. Our whole society is so messed up where the people that need the support the most have the most barriers to get through in order to get that support, which makes no sense at all. The title of my book is Keeping Finance Personal, but the meaning of that is, the way that you approach finances, make sure it’s personal to you. But it’s very much not finances is a personal problem. And I talk about this a lot in the book, that most of the financial struggles that people face are due to the lack of social systems that exist and the history of white supremacy in financial institutions, and all of these things. The cost of living inflation, that has a bigger impact on your financial struggles than the personal decisions that you made. And there’s not an answer right now. Burn all the systems to the ground and rebuild them. But how do we do that?
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Right. One of the things you talk about in your book that I think is so crucial is this idea of safety. And there’s been a lot of misunderstanding and even mocking the idea of safe spaces. But you talk about how unsafe spaces keep people in this shame cycle and in silence. And we know from psychology that when people feel safe, they are going to be more likely to remain open to changing their thought patterns and are going to show up as the best version of themselves. So what does it mean to you to create safe spaces, to have safe spaces, especially as it relates to money?
Ellyce Fulmore:
For me, what constitutes as a safe space is a space where you feel seen, heard and understood, and your body is at ease. You’re not in fight or flight at all and you can ask questions without fear of judgment. You are listened to and you feel like people can relate to your experience, you can relate to their experience. And I think that’s so important when it comes to money, because as soon as we feel unsafe in any sort of money space, whether that’s just like we’re watching a YouTube video of someone talking about money or we’re at the bank talking to a financial advisor, then you’re going to shut down and you’re not going to feel comfortable asking certain questions or opening up about your situation.
And I’ve shared my experience in the past of seeing a really awful financial advisor who just was very condescending, didn’t listen to me, made misogynistic comments to me, and I just felt worse. I felt so ashamed about my situation and it further isolated me and stopped me from asking for more help. And so something, a technique that I’ve developed that, also it’s an exercise I walk through in the book, is coming up with your list of red and green flags for any sort of space. Your red flags are things that signal to you that this is an unsafe space. And that can be a feeling that you have or it can also be something more specific. I give the example of, if you are filling out an intake form and there’s no place for you to put your pronouns or your preferred name or anything like that, that might be a sign to you that that’s not a safe space.
So you make this list of all these aspects of a space that make you not feel good, and then you make your green flags list, which, in some ways, the opposite of red flags, but it’s also more like your wishlist. So all of the things in the ultimate space that would make you feel so good. So maybe that’s like they have diversity, equity, and inclusion practices in place. Maybe they’re really listening to you. They have pride flags everywhere and are supporting the LGBTQ+ community. Whatever it is for you.
And then once you have these two lists, any time you enter a space of any kind, you can then look at your two lists and say, “Okay, is there any red flags that are coming up? Do I have my green flags?” And that can help you really determine if that is going to be a good space for you.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that strategy. That’s fantastic. And I love the framing, too, of a wishlist because, unfortunately, even spaces that attempt to be inclusive sometimes don’t have all of the things. So it’s like, “What am I looking for that would allow me to feel like, “Okay, I’m supposed to be here,” or, “this is going to be more comfortable for me?””
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You shared a Reel recently that I would love to discuss. You talk about in your book, personal finance for a bunch of different lifestyles. And one of them is someone who’s poly. We get some questions about that from a financial standpoint. Can you share an example of what this might look like financially and how a polyamorous person might manage their finances differently, or some strategies that someone could use?
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah. I think that there are so many different approaches depending on what being polyamorous means to you and how that plays out in your life. And I think, in any relationship, obviously having conversations about money is very important, but especially in a polyamorous relationship. You’re inviting more people into the relationship, so you need to have even more conversations. And I think communication is absolutely the biggest thing because if you, say, have one partner that you’re living with and your finances are combined in any way, if you are introducing other partners, how does that then work?
You need to have those conversations about how you’re spending your money and what you need to disclose or what you don’t need to disclose and what they’re comfortable with. So I think for sure is having just a ton of money conversations all the time. And then in terms of some tips or advice or just how things play out differently, I interviewed a polyamorous triad for my book and they spoke a lot about things from a legal standpoint, because they actually are all about to be married.
Two of them are legally married right now, and then they’re all going to be married. But because the state that they live in only allows you to be married to one person, they can’t actually legally all be married to each other. So that brings up an interesting legal consideration when you’re talking about money, is that you might want to have your own legal documents in place, kind of like a prenup but for these situations, because now one partner is not legally protected in that marriage situation if anything were to happen.
So I think that’s an important consideration. And it also plays out with their home as well, because they own a home together. And all their names can’t be on the trust. So that’s another thing that’s like, those are conversations that you need to have and considerations that you need to make. And it might involve outside legal counsel to figure out, how are you going to be protected in the future? Especially if there are partners that are coming and going, or there’s more serious partners and there’s ones that are less serious.
How does that work from a legal standpoint? And then how does that work with how you’re spending money on a daily basis and where your money’s going, who you’re sharing money with? And I think especially if you have savings goals together or things like that, then there has to be the conversation of, what about this partner? Or if there’s a new partner coming in, how is the saving school going to be different? And just really understanding, I think, how people are spending their money in those relationships. So there’s definitely a lot to think about. Money conversations, I feel like, is the big thing.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and protecting everyone in the relationship, too, both, of course, emotionally but also financially. And I love that example of, like, “Okay, that doesn’t really exist. Those forms don’t really exist so we’re going to make our own.” And make sure they’re legal documents, but make their own. And you can adapt that regardless of whether you’re poly or not. We get a lot of questions like, “I’m moving in with my partner and we’re not married.” I’m like, “You need a legal agreement.”
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You need to figure out, like, “Okay, if we’re sharing finances and we’re sharing money, what does happen if we separate? Or what does happen if we want to use this money for a particular goal that maybe my partner doesn’t?” I would rather… we’ve all seen Judge Judy. You’d rather have a legal document in place than not have anything at all. Preparing for the worst but hoping for the best.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah. And something else that this triad shared with me is that they have weekly family meetings where they sit down at the kitchen table and discuss their domestic labor and money and all of these things. But they talked about the importance of going through a financial checklist of important things that they need to touch on and allowing each person to have their time to speak, and that they basically don’t move on to the next thing until everyone is in agreement, everyone has an understanding.
And I think that was a really great way to approach that and to really make sure that everyone has a voice, because I think in some ways there is potential for some voices to be more vocal than others, and you don’t want to end up in a situation where someone is feeling like they don’t have financial autonomy in that relationship. So I love the idea of a family meeting. And even if you’re not all dating each other, then a group chat or something where you can discuss some of the more serious financial purchases.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Roommates can do this, too.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah, exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
One of the things that we have talked so much about on this show that I cover in an entire chapter of my book and that you cover in yours is just the emotions of money, the psychology of money, but specifically trauma and the way we all have financial trauma, even the people who are, quote unquote, good with money. So can we go through some of what you discovered during your research for the book on how someone with trauma may struggle with finances? And then talking specifically about financial trauma. How does that show up in our lives?
Ellyce Fulmore:
The idea of trauma and the connection to money, for me, that research really stemmed from taking a certification program called The Trauma of Money. And in that program we were introduced to the idea that any sort of trauma that you experience in your life is going to affect your relationship with money. And a lot of times when we are dealing with our finances or learning about money, those feelings or emotions that are tied to other trauma that we’ve experienced can show up with our money because money is so emotional and it’s tied to so many things.
And so then we end up being in a trauma-activated state, which, essentially when that happens, your prefrontal cortex, the higher level thinking area of your brain is going to shut down and you’re going to be making decisions from the survival part of your brain. So when we’re talking about making financial decisions, you’re no longer able to make decisions in a way that you usually would, where you can think about all the options and what would make most sense for you in the longterm. And instead you’re in this fight or flight mode where you’re going to make a more rash decision, one that’s in the moment and may not be the decision that you’d usually make because you’re in this trauma-activated state.
And we can also, of course, experience financial trauma, but it doesn’t have to be directly linked to finances in order to show up in your relationship with money. Some of the financial behaviors that can stem from that are avoidance, so avoiding your finances. Avoiding looking at your bank account, not paying your taxes, not opening mail about your credit card or student loans. It can also manifest as overspending or underspending. Both are coping mechanisms that might come up for you when you’re experiencing trauma.
And it can also show up as codependency and basically a lack of boundaries, which, an example of that is often in the workplace. Not negotiating for your worth, and overworking and being underpaid, and things like that. So it really affects so many areas of your life. And I think it’s important to acknowledge that there are so many different types of trauma and that everyone has experienced trauma. I think a lot of people gaslight themselves and say, “Well, I didn’t experience a really big traumatic event.” But there’s other trauma that you can experience.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. It’s not capital T, Trauma.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s little T, trauma. Yeah.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
And so you don’t think you’ve had any. I am lucky enough to say that I have not really had any big T, Trauma, in my life. And until I started going to therapy I was like, “Oh, my life’s been fine.” But realizing things can be traumatic even if they aren’t the capital T, Trauma, or the things we would more classically define as traumatic.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah, exactly. And yeah, something the co-founder of The Trauma of Money, Chantel Chapman, she says that money, in society, for us represents safety, security, and worthiness. And so that is greatly impacted by any trauma that we face. So if we experience a traumatic situation in a relationship, where we feel like we’re not good enough or that we’re not worthy of being loved, that can also show up in our finances. Because maybe you go to pay for something and your card declines. And suddenly you’re embarrassed and you’re like, “Oh my gosh. I’m not managing my money well enough. I’m not good enough.” And that trauma that you’ve experienced in a completely different situation. That same feeling and that same trauma activation can come up when you’re dealing with your money because it’s so tightly tied to our sense of self and the way that society defines our worth and all of these things.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and something we’ve discussed on the show and we actually just talked about as a team today is, often when you make a mistake or something happens, it’s not a fact. It’s not a thing that happened, it’s your identity. So it’s not, “I failed.” It’s, “I am a failure.” And I think it’s interesting if we then relate that to what you’re talking about with identity, of this identity-based financial education. If you are defining parts of your identity, it can be so easy then to say, as you’re getting started in your money journey, “Well, I’m bad with money,” or, “I am a person who is bad with money,” in addition to being queer or neurodivergent or these other identities.
So I think that that is actually where the identity thing can be really challenging, because money’s just like a skill. It’s a skill that you learn just like any other skill. It’s not an identity. You weren’t born with the good with money gene or not.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
And so I think that so many people I talk to and I know you talk to, is it’s like you being good with money or bad with money, it’s not a default state. It’s not your identity. That can shift and change.
Yeah, 100%. This is something that has always baffled me since I first got into the finance space, is, why is there this weird societal expectation that we should just be born knowing how to manage money, but we don’t apply that to so many other things?
Ellyce Fulmore:
Right. Right, right.
Tori Dunlap:
I think that there’s a general understanding that you’re not going to know how to cook unless someone teaches you or you follow a recipe in a cookbook. Tiffany Aliche came on this show and she said, “If I break my arm, I’m not going to be like, “How do I set my own bone?””
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah. No, literally.
Tori Dunlap:
No one thinks that way.
Ellyce Fulmore:
And same with, I always use fitness as an example. If you’re going to start doing yoga or Olympic weightlifting, nobody would be like, “You don’t know how to do that?” Everyone would be like, “Yeah, obviously you’re going to go to a class or see a coach.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right. I’m trying to speak fluent French. I’m not going to be fluent in the first class and I’m not going to just… yeah, it’s anything. I learn how to play the tuba. Okay, I’m not going to be the virtuoso in the orchestra tomorrow. But yet money, same thing. We pop out of the womb and we’re like, “We should be good with money.”
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah. It’s so weird. There’s such a weird societal expectation. And I think a lot of it also is further exacerbated by the fact that people don’t talk about money, and so then everyone just perceives that everyone else around them is doing good and is great with money because no one’s sharing how they’re actually doing. And so then this leads to more shame spiraling, thinking that you’re the only one struggling. And it’s just not true. And like you said, it’s a skill that you can learn. And your current finances are not a reflection of your self-worth in any way and of who you are or your identity.
It’s just a thing that you can learn. And it’s not your fault if you struggle with your finances, because you probably weren’t given the tools to succeed.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. I want to go back to what you said earlier about the identity-based approach to money. And one of the examples you use is for trans folks. Something like a transition surgery costs a lot of money, but it has both the lowest regret rate, and the decrease in suicide is as much as 70% for a population that is unfortunately highly suicidal. So are there people in groups that are traditionally underrepresented that you interview in the book? And can you share some of the stories about how they navigate identity-based finances and how they might make certain decisions that on paper, financially, might not be smart, but make their lives better?
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yeah. Actually it’s a reference to one of the people I interviewed in the book who is Stevie. And he is a trans man. And he transitioned over 15 years ago, and so has had a lot of experience living as a trans man. And something that he shared with me is that he recently started getting manicures. And this was actually a way for him to take back the power of a piece of his identity that was taken away from him, because when he started his transition he felt like he needed to be hyper-masculine. And so anything that would be labeled as slightly feminine he stopped doing because he wanted to really step into his new identity.
But now he’s realized that he enjoys not really putting a label on what’s feminine and what’s masculine. Just doing what feels good and embracing all sides of himself. And one of those is getting manicures, which is a monthly expense that many people would say is frivolous or unnecessary, but for him it’s a way to represent who he is and to take back that sense of self. And I think that was one of the really powerful interviews in the book. But there’s a lot of interviews, and it was really important to me to really amplify those voices that are traditionally not given a voice when it comes to the finance space.
And so there’s folks with various disabilities that I interviewed for the book that shared their experience. We have Stevie, who’s a trans man. We have indigenous perspectives, the polyamorous triad. A lot of different marginalized groups. Non-binary folks speaking to their experience and the way that their relationship with money has been impacted by their identity, and also the way that they manage their money based on their identity. And that’s probably one of my favorite parts of the whole book. And I honestly could’ve just wrote a book entirely of other people’s interviews, which I guess wouldn’t be me writing it, but that was one of the best parts about writing the book, was having all those interviews.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I had a very similar experience because our books are formatted the same way, where I pop in and then we have an interview as a sidebar. And very similar situation, where I was like, “More of these.” And it’s why I host a podcast.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Yes, very smart because it was like, “More interviews and more perspectives from other people talking about things.”
Tori Dunlap:
As we wrap up, you’re Canadian. And one of the questions we just get a lot of the time because we have a big international audience is, what do you recommend Canadians do? So I’m just going to do a quick rapid fire.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Okay.
Tori Dunlap:
Canadian bank account or high yield savings account? Where should I go? Where should I look?
Ellyce Fulmore:
I am a big fan of EQ Bank for high yield savings accounts. I also like the Wealthsimple cash accounts and the Neo Financial cash account, I think. I don’t know what they changed their name to. Neo Money, I think, actually. Neo Money account. But it’s their version of a high yield savings account.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, that’s amazing. Let’s talk about retirement accounts. What are my best options and where do I go to open one?
Ellyce Fulmore:
Best options would be TFSA and RSP. I am personally a fan of maxing out your TFSA first, but it does depend on your situation, so make sure you pay attention to your personal situation and goals and income and all of those things. And in terms of where to open an account, I recommend an online brokerage like Questrade or Wealthsimple.
Tori Dunlap:
Amazing. And anything specifically that you would advise Canadians to do in terms of, I don’t know, money hacks or things that are different for money in Canada versus another country?
Ellyce Fulmore:
One thing is the KOHO card, which I talk about a lot. And people always ask for an alternative in the US, and I feel like there are some close ones but nothing that really relates. I’m just such a big fan of KOHO. It’s a kind of prepaid spending card, and I think it’s just so great to use as a spending card and to use as your allowance card. And they also have a great joint account as well. So I highly recommend that to any Canadian. I think it’s a great tool and app that Americans don’t have.
And another thing is the First Time Home Buyers Account just was introduced this year. So I’d recommend opening that account even if you’re not sure if you’re going to use it, even if you don’t have any money to put into it. But if you open it this year, then you will get that contribution room and it’ll carry over. And this is the first year it was introduced, so just get the account. It’s free. You don’t have to do anything. And then you can decide later if you want to use it. But at least you’ll be gaining the contribution room.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s new to me. I didn’t even know those accounts existed. Fantastic. Thank you for being on the show. Where can people buy your book? Where can people find out more about you? Plug away, my friend.
Ellyce Fulmore:
Okay. Thank you so much for having me. You can pre-order the book at basically any major retailer. You can go to www.queerdco.com/book, and that will have all of the links where you can buy it. It’s available Barnes & Nobles, Amazon, Indigo, and also quite a few indie bookstores as well. And then you can find me on social media on Instagram, @Ellyce.Fulmore. And you can find me on Tiktok, @Queerd.co. And yeah, those are the main areas. But go pre-order the book. Go rewrite your money story. Give me a follow and let me know if you found me from this podcast. because I’d love to know.
Tori Dunlap:
I Blurbed her book. It’s fantastic, especially for our neuro-spicy folks or anybody in any marginalized group. I think it’s really especially fantastic. So highly recommend. Good companion to the other finance books in your collection, so highly recommend it.
Thank you to Ellyce for joining us. You can find her book wherever you buy books. It’s called Keeping Finance Personal. And I Blurbed the book. I think it’s such a great guide, especially for people who have largely been left out of the personal finance community. So if you’re neuro-spicy, especially, this is going to be a great book for you.
Thank you for being here, Financial Feminists. I hope you’re having a great start to the new year. Strap in for a whole bunch of things that we’re excited to launch and create for you in 2024. And we’ll see you back here soon. Have a good one.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer, Tamisha Grant. Marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Kahlil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda Leffew, Masha Bachmetyeva, Kailyn Sprinkle, Sumaya Mulla-Carillo, and Harvey Carlson. Research by Ariel Johnson. Audio engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton. Photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist Her First 100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over one million women negotiate salary, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of almost 250,000 on Instagram and more than 1.6 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
