”If you are a small business doing partnerships, you really need to think about what’s really going to drive your business. It has to be that you want to captivate an audience that you do not yet have.”
Feeling stuck negotiating as a female entrepreneur? Have you ever walked away from a deal or a partnership feeling like you left money on the table? In this episode, we flip the script on negotiation so you can level up your career. Join host Tori Dunlap for an insightful conversation with Jennifer Justice, the mastermind behind The Justice Dept. – a business strategy & business development consultancy and a law firm that works with female entrepreneurs, executives, talent, brands and creatives to build and maximize their revenue and wealth. Prior to The Justice Dept., Jennifer was EVP of Strategic Marketing and Business Development and General Counsel at Roc Nation; she has served as personal entertainment attorney to Jay-Z and Beyonce during her time at Roc Nation.
Jennifer is a powerhouse consultant who has helped countless female founders launch, grow, and scale their businesses. From crafting strategic partnerships to demystifying negotiation tactics, Jennifer has the tools and experience to help you become a fearless negotiator. Whether you’re a seasoned entrepreneur or just starting out, this episode is packed with actionable tips and strategies you won’t want to miss.
Key takeaways on partnerships and negotiating:
Negotiating Partnerships
- Do your research. Identify the potential benefits of the partnership for your business (increased audience reach, financial gain, etc.).
- Mutually beneficial partnerships. Ensure the partnership offers value to both parties. Don’t waste time pursuing irrelevant opportunities.
- Consider your resources. Do you have the capacity to execute the partnership effectively (team, budget, etc.)?
Bartering vs. Getting Paid
- Strategic bartering. Bartering your services or products can be a viable option if the exposure or connections gained are valuable for your business growth.
- Evaluate the opportunity. Not all opportunities are worth bartering for. Consider the reach and potential benefits before giving away free services/products.
Negotiating with Big Personalities
- Maintain your composure. Don’t take their behavior personally. Focus on achieving your goals in the negotiation.
- Shift your perspective. Understand the reasons behind their personality and adjust your approach accordingly.
- Prioritize your goals. Keep your desired outcome in mind, and don’t be swayed by emotional responses.
Notable Quotes
“If you’re not negotiating, not just your salary, but the other deal terms that matter a lot, like your title, like equity, like bonus, et cetera. You’re going to be way behind your coworkers, and nobody cares if you negotiate your deal or not.”
“I know you’re not my therapist… I’m your therapist. I’m your best friend. I’m your lawyer and executive coach all in one while I’m helping you with this deal.” (Jennifer on her approach to client service)
“I was on this call and they all kept talking about dry powder, dry powder. I was like, “What the hell is dry powder?” I’d look it up and it just means extra money. I was like, “These are the terms that drive women crazy and intimidate us and make us feel like we don’t know what we’re doing.”
Episode at-a-glance:
≫ 03:03 From entertainment executive to entrepreneur
≫ 12:28 The role of a lawyer in an artist’s career
≫ 16:22 Strategic thinking in business and brand expansion
≫ 21:32 When to hire a lawyer for your business
≫ 26:40 Jennifer’s journey to entrepreneurship
≫ 31:47 Challenging small play in entrepreneurship
≫ 34:42 Overcoming doubt at every career stage
≫ 36:31 Mastering negotiations and partnerships
≫ 41:46 Navigating relationships with big personalities
≫ 47:08 Empowering women through business and negotiation
≫ 50:57 The Justice Dept. and its mission
Jennifer’s Links:
Jennifer’s website: The Justice Dept.
Jennifer’s career course: Be the Boss of Your Career
Jennifer’s podcast: Takin’ Care of Lady Business
RESOURCES:
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Meet Jennifer
Jennifer Justice is an entrepreneur and former entertainment executive known for her expertise in building careers and business portfolios of artists’ and women by marrying art with commerce. From the beginning of her career, JJ, as she is known, has championed gender equality & diversity in the workplace and beyond.
In 2019, JJ founded The Justice Dept. – a business strategy & business development consultancy and a law firm that works with female entrepreneurs, executives, talent, brands and creatives to build and maximize their revenue and wealth. Prior to The Justice Dept, JJ was EVP of Strategic Marketing and
Business Development and General Counsel at Roc Nation, where she helped structure the vision and growth of Roc Nation. She served as Jay-Z’s personal entertainment attorney for a total of 17 years and Beyonce’s attorney during her time at Roc Nation. JJ also hosts the acclaimed podcast, “Takin’ Care of Lady Business”, has been named a “Game Changer” by Goop, by InStyle as one of the 50 Badass Women Changing the World, and on Billboard’s Women in Power list three times. She has been featured on the TODAY Show, Tamron Hall, CNBC, Yahoo, Intermix, The Skimm Podcast, Kara Goldin Podcast and is a regular contributor on NBC News.
Transcript:
Jennifer Justice:
Then what kind of deal is it? Is it like with Jay, he was always so entrepreneurial and he always knew what he wanted. He wanted to own things for the most part, so we were creating deals that had never been done. He was really one of the first in music, in particular, to start his own brands, et cetera.
He’s like, “Instead of making somebody else rich, I’m going to do it myself.” We did that in a lot of different ways and way before Roc Nation, when he was like, “Okay. Let’s really hypergrow this idea of being a self-sustaining company and all the parts feed each other.”
Tori Dunlap:
Hi team, welcome to the show. I’m so excited to see you. Welcome, Financial Feminists. Thanks for being here. I was telling Kristen before, I went to the gym this morning. I woke up at 7:45, 6:45. Jesus, I woke up at 6:45, and some of you’s like, “Yeah, this child’s play. I’m up at 5:00.” Sorry, that was early for me, and I went to the gym before work. Yes, I feel better than everybody else.
No, but truly I’m like, “This is the version of me where I am at my best.” I had my smoothie after, I did my shower. Also, quick life hack, I don’t know why I didn’t do this sooner. This blew my mind the first time I did it a couple years ago. I was somewhere tropical and there was an outdoor shower at the place I was staying. First of all, outdoor showers, 10 out of 10 would recommend.
Second, I never thought to bring beverages into the shower before, and let me tell you, shower beverages hit different. I would wake up and I would go out to my outdoor shower with the birds chirping and the sunshine, and I would have made my smoothie. I bring my smoothie into the shower, and let me tell you, it changed my life. It changed my life.
This morning, I took my shower after my workout and I had my kale, ginger, apple, lemon smoothie already made. I just sat and I was in the hot water and I just sipped it. Then I tried to cold plunge and I did about three seconds, and then I was like, “No, too cold.” Then I switched it off. Also, I didn’t do an intro. Hi, I’m Tori. You probably knew that already.
Welcome, I’m a money expert. I’m a New York Times bestselling author, and I am a smoothie in the shower drinker and I highly recommend. If you are new to the show, you’re new to Her First $100K, you are trying to figure out where the hell to start with your money journey. What you’re going to do is go to herfirst100K.com/quiz, herfirst100K.com/quiz.
You can also go down to the description that’s right under this episode, and it’s a STIX question quiz. There’s no pass-fail. We’re just trying to get some information about you, and then we will deliver you a free, personal money plan to guide you on your journey. This is the thing we built for everyone who’s way too overwhelmed, who’s trying to figure out where to start with money.
Literally, while you’re listening to this episode, assuming you’re not driving a car, go ahead and type that in, herfirst100K.com/quiz, complete the quiz. We will send the results and all of the goodies directly to your inbox. So we appreciate it. All right. Today’s episode is a fun one with a friend of mine, who’s also a collaborator, Jennifer Justice.
Jennifer Justice is an entrepreneur and former entertainment executive known for her expertise in building careers and business portfolios of artists and women by marrying art with commerce. From the beginning of her career, JJ, as she is known, has championed gender equality and diversity in the workplace and beyond.
In 2019, JJ founded The Justice Dept, a business strategy and business development consultancy, and a law firm that works with female entrepreneurs, executives, talent brands and creatives to build and maximize their revenue and wealth. Prior to The Justice Dept, JJ was EVP of strategic marketing and business development and general counsel at Roc Nation.
Yes, that Roc Nation, where she helped structure the vision and growth of Roc Nation. Get this, you ready? Hold onto your socks, everybody. She served as Jay-Z’s personal entertainment attorney for a total of 17 years, and Beyonce’s attorney. Yes, Beyonce Knowles-Carter’s attorney during her time at Roc Nation. Crazy, wild. First time I heard that, I was just floored.
I was like, “Tell me everything, even though I know you can’t.” JJ also hosts the acclaimed podcast, Takin’ Care of Lady Business, which I have been a guest on. She’s also been named a Game Changer by Goop, by InStyle as one of the 50 Badass Women Changing the World, and on Billboard’s Women in Power list three times.
She’s been featured on the Today Show, Tamron Hall, CNBC and Yahoo, Intermix, TheSkimm Podcast, Kara Goldin Podcast, and is a regular contributor on NBC News. A couple of things we talk about in this episode. We talk about how Jennifer got into the music business and the lessons she learned while working at Roc Nation.
If you’re a small business owner, we also talked about all the important questions of when is it time to bring in a lawyer? It’s super important to figure out when the most opportune time is, as well as how to make advantageous deals when you’re building your business or your brand. We also spend some time talking about negotiating, both as a business owner and as a woman navigating the corporate world.
Whether you’re a business owner, someone who’s working a nine to five, anything in between, this is going to be a great episode for you. Let’s go ahead and get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. You’ve been seeing far too much of me recently and I’m so sorry for that. I feel like this is our third time talking.
Jennifer Justice:
Not true.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m like, “Oh, you’ve seen way too much.” How are you doing? How’s life? How are things going? You’re based in New York.
Jennifer Justice:
I’m based in New York.
Tori Dunlap:
Is it Brooklyn or New York?
Jennifer Justice:
No, I’m in Lower Manhattan.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, cool.
Jennifer Justice:
Tribeca, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Jennifer Justice:
It’s hectic. I feel like things are back to 2019 and everybody’s calling at seven at night again. You know what I mean?
Tori Dunlap:
That’s not ideal.
Jennifer Justice:
No.
Tori Dunlap:
I was just talking to a friend this morning that apparently there’s this fungal thing that’s uncurable going around Washington state hospitals.
She’s like, “Is this the beginning of the pandemic again?” She’s like, “It’s the same Super Bowl. It’s the same presidential candidates.”
Jennifer Justice:
Oh, my God.
Tori Dunlap:
She’s like, “Is this, are we round twoing this?”
Jennifer Justice:
I just got chills.
Tori Dunlap:
I was like, “I can’t.” I know. I’m like, “I can’t think about that.”
Jennifer Justice:
No.
Tori Dunlap:
I can’t think about doing this all over again.
Jennifer Justice:
No, although we’re much more prepared.
Tori Dunlap:
I did tell her, I was like, “If we made it through a pandemic, maybe we can make it through a second question mark.”
But I think we’re going to be fine. Watch in three months we’re not fine.
Jennifer Justice:
I have a lot of PPE, that’s for sure.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Jennifer Justice:
I’m stocked up.
Tori Dunlap:
We’re really excited to have you. I love to start interviews with our finance and business guests by asking them their first money memory.
When is the first time that you remember thinking about money?
Jennifer Justice:
The first time I remember thinking about money, I was in high school. I always had jobs like pretty much over part-time, you know what I mean? I got a credit card because I was going to college. I was the first of anybody in my family to go to college. My mom didn’t even graduate high school. From Washington state and I was going to University of Washington.
I didn’t have a comforter and everything, and so I had to get a credit card. I didn’t have money. I had to get a credit card to purchase bedding and stuff for the dorm room. I had a credit line of $200 and I purchased, it was probably $150 or something worth of stuff, and freaking out going, “How am I going to pay this back?”
It was never a good relationship with money, I’ll tell you that. It was always, I always had that poverty mentality. We grew up with food stamps and government cheese and stuff like that, so it’s always about scarcity, not abundance unfortunately.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. It wasn’t this exciting, “Cool, I’m going to go use this credit card to buy the things I want.” It’s like, “Holy shit, I can’t afford this.”
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah. How am I going to pay this? Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. We find that money memories often have a direct impact on the relationship with money you have unless you work to change it.
It sounds like that, yes, scarcity mindset, very similar of just growing up without a lot. It sounds like that informed a lot of your experience.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah, of course.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. What drew you to entertainment? I have to ask you, how did that start?
Especially on the business side, going from college at Udub to getting to what drew you to that? What was exciting about that for you?
Jennifer Justice:
Well, growing up without any mentors from a business perspective and understanding what I could possibly do with my undergraduate degree, I wasn’t really sure. I was looking to I graduated, I was going on interviews for wine distribution or insurance sales. I was just like, “This is not why I went to UDub.”
I didn’t want to work with a burgeoning Microsoft or Microsoft, or a Starbucks or the big places in Seattle. I was like, “You know what? I guess I’m going to go to law school.” I’d worked at the prosecutor’s office in King County and I was like, “Okay, I’ll go and I’ll be a lawyer because I don’t know what else to do.”
You look on TV, it’s like lawyer, doctor, banker. It’s still the same, private eye, spy, and so I opted for lawyer and I applied to law school. The grunge years had been in full swing, all those bands still lived there. Seattle was still a pretty small town, and I would go out to clubs and see these bands. They were like, “Oh, you’re going to law school? We have lawyers and they’re women.”
I was like, “Wait, what? I can do this?” I went to Cornell Law School solely to be a music entertainment attorney, but it’s not an easy thing to get into. I started as an associate, a litigation associate at a law firm called Hughes Hubbard & Reed, and they’re really great. They’re downtown New York.
They said, “Look, we know you don’t want to be here, but we want our people to be happy, because if you go somewhere else, you’ll possibly hire us.” One of the guys who hired me actually there called me and he said, “I have good news and bad news. I’m not going to be here anymore, but I’m going to Elekra Records. When you’re ready to be an entertainment attorney, I’ll help you get some interviews.”
That’s exactly what happened. I just knew that it was an area after working in litigation and not having, I didn’t go to boarding school, I didn’t go to private school here. I don’t have dads who are general counsels or friends who or general counsels to get clients. I was ambitious and I wanted to do well, but I knew that I could relate to musicians and I knew it was an art form that I loved so much.
I really wanted to be a music attorney, and so that’s exactly what happened. The guy, when I was ready about a year in, he started introducing me to other attorneys that were looking to hire and hire somebody like me.
Tori Dunlap:
We read that you took a pay cut to do that. Was that a payoff that ended up being worth it?
It sounded like that that was something you actually wanted to do versus your unhappiness in your current situation.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah. I looked at it like I’ll probably really not make partner for a really long time because I just didn’t have that network and I took a bet on myself. They offered me even less and I negotiated higher, thankfully. Sometimes I look back at that person and go, “Who was she? How did she do that?” I negotiated higher. I knew that they wanted me and they met it.
Then I quickly started getting my own clients. I knew that if I get my own clients and I could surpass what I was going to be making at the same year and level at Hughes Hubbard & Reed. I took a bet on myself, lived some lean, lean years. I had a ton of loans from UDub and Cornell. Well, mostly from Cornell, not from UDub, but it was a pretty hefty price tag. I just hustled.
I hustled and worked my ass off and got a bunch of clients and did really well, really quickly. So it paid off, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I would love for you to explain to the listener who’s not in this industry, why might an artist need a lawyer?
What is the purpose of legal counsel to a client like Rihanna or Beyonce or Jay-Z? What sort of deals are you brokering? Give me a peek into that universe, how the sausage gets made.
Jennifer Justice:
Okay. Yeah. It’s actually quite different, and I didn’t know that because I grew up in the business, but a lawyer is usually one of the first people that an artist hires because they help them find managers for their business. They help them find business managers. They help them find booking agents, which book their shows, and then also find record deals for them.
We negotiate that full record deal, which is usually a 40, 50-page agreement. If they’re songwriters, we help them find publishing deals that will pay them for the songs that they write. Because there’s songwriters that aren’t artists and artists that aren’t songwriters, and then there’s some that are both, which happen to be all the people who you just named.
Then they have deals for their merchandise that you buy when you go to a show. They have deals with their managers when they get them. They have deals for shows, they have deals for all the extracurricular stuff that they do. Jay-Z happened to turn all his hobbies into businesses. It’s actually way more like an agent, because an agent doesn’t touch their recorded music with their record label or their songwriting.
They only do, for the most part, their live shows, and sometimes they’ll do their sponsorship endorsement stuff. But for instance, Jay-Z never had an agent his entire life, so I was doing more agent stuff, more sourcing, vetting. It was a lot more business development, business strategy, and then I also had a law degree, you know what I mean? I had to do the paperwork too.
It’s a really integral role in an artist’s career. They always have a lawyer, they always have, well, unless you’re Jay-Z, have an agent for the most part.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Jennifer Justice:
They have a record label or self-release, or a publishing company or collect that on their own. Those are the major players in their careers.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and I think one thing, especially looking at your client roster, was people who were not just thinking strategically about, “Yep. I’m going to be a musician, but also I’m going to be a songwriter, and I’m going to own a liquor brand, and I’m going to have a streaming service and I’m going to do all these things.”
How integral is that relationship between a lawyer and an artist to say, “Okay. There’s these other opportunities for you that are here just beyond music. Just beyond you showing up and writing songs, but also, of course, touring and merchandise.”
Then in addition, all of the other pieces now that we see more commonly of just the musician as a brand.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah. It’s a very close relationship and it should be centered with that one person, because every deal has an exclusivity or a term. You have to make sure that everything, all the puzzle pieces fit together, that you’re not breaching one contract to get another. When they are and how much negotiation, how much leverage you have based on their last album. You know what I mean?
That’s really what it is. It’s like, “How hot are you and what can you get from that?” Then what kind of deal is it? Is it like with Jay, he was always so entrepreneurial and he always knew what he wanted, so he wanted to own things for the most part. We were creating deals that had never been done, and he was really one of the first in music, in particular, to start his own brands, et cetera.
He was like, “Instead of making somebody else rich, I’m going to do it myself.” We did that in a lot of different ways and way before Roc Nation, when he was like, “Okay. Let’s really hypergrow this idea of being a self-sustaining company and all the parts feed each other.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Well, and I just want to call out because the average listener, as much as we want to be a Beyonce or a Jay-Z, we’re probably never going to get there. But this is something that you can think about in your everyday life, especially if you’re a business owner. This is part of what you and I are having conversations with offline.
This is how can we expand the worth of our brand, the worth of our company in not just a very obvious way, but where do you have influence? Where can you extend your brand past just your niche and think more strategically that way? I think that that’s one great learning from you in your work because it’s like, again, thinking strategically about what can I own? How can I run this as opposed to giving money to somebody else?
Jennifer Justice:
Exactly. What are you doing on the side that you’re paying somebody a lot of money to do, that you can do yourself and make money on that? It can be daunting, you got to take it one step at a time.
But especially given digital, all the different ways you can expand your brand digitally and monetize those different things.
All the different software, all the different AI that can help you in that, you’d be remiss not to take advantage of that.
Tori Dunlap:
We might not be able to talk about this because of NDA, and you can tell me and we can cut it, but one of the things that I loved, and maybe you were still working with her at this time.
But the very famous story of Beyonce performing at Uber and Uber offering her a fee. She was like, “No, I’ll take equity instead.” Were you part of this deal? Do you remember hearing this?
Jennifer Justice:
No, no. I don’t remember hearing it, but we had… So no, I don’t remember doing it, hearing it.
We did, at Roc Nation, get to invest in Uber early on though, and she might have done that right after that.
Tori Dunlap:
Maybe that’s what it was. It was something, yeah, it was one of those now almost memes where it’s like Beyonce performing and then the little information about her below. But I remember seeing this six or seven years ago that it was Uber called her and they were like, “Hey, perform in our annual party.” She was like, “No, I’ll take equity,” and now the equity’s worth 30 times what they were going to pay her.
I was just like, “That’s the kind of business decision.” Now, on the flip side, there’s sometimes where taking equity in a company is not the smart move where it’s not going to be worth anything, but that is strategic thinking. Same thing with her selling, keeping the rights to Homecoming to be able to go sell them to Netflix, as opposed to I think Coachella just wanted the rights to her performance.
She was like, “No, I’m going to keep them and I’m going to sell them for more money somewhere else.” I think it’s just really smart that big-picture thinking.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah. Sometimes look, it’s when you have the resources to do those kinds of of things. Because if you say, “You know what? I’m going to pay for the whole performance and I will pay for the recording. I’ll pay for the cameras, et cetera, so you can’t own it anyway.” That’s another thing. It’s like, “You’re going to pay me and I’m going to use that money to pay for myself and then I can get those things.”
You can do it in smaller ways too. A lot of it comes up in books. It’s like do you want to self-release, which is totally an option these days and pay for everything yourself? Or do you want somebody else to own all of your assets, including the title of your book? Which can also be the title of your company and all these different things that you have to think about. Same with a podcast, who owns it at the end of the day?
Tori Dunlap:
That’s something we’re thinking about a lot at Her First $100K. One of the things to add to that, is I am now thinking when is a partnership going to not only, of course, financially make sense and we share the same mission and values? But also at this point, a lot of things I could do myself, so I’m paying for convenience for somebody else to do them.
If I’m bringing in a partner, it’s like, “Okay. They should either be able to do it better than me, or I don’t want to build that team to be able to do it right now. Or I don’t want to have to stress about that and worry about that.” That’s the balance or that’s the decision grid that’s in my head is it’s like, “Is it worth it to bring it in-house so I can control it?”
If it’s not, then it has to either be a better move financially or more convenient of just not having think about it. That’s something that I’m thinking about a lot.
Jennifer Justice:
Well, yeah, I think you have to also think it’s like, “Is this really in line with my brand? Is it a complementary capability that I can help my business grow?”
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Jennifer Justice:
A lot of startups, for instance, think about bringing engineering teams in-house and tech companies. If your main product is tech, that’s one thing. If your main product’s not tech, do you really need to house a tech company inside your company?
You might have tech capabilities and you can have an outside person with a CTO inside, but do you really need to pay overhead for an entire tech team for it? Probably not. These are considerations that you have, it’s one example how to analyze who you should bring in-house for good and who you should hire out.
Tori Dunlap:
I can hear our audience already after talking to you for a bit going, “Okay, at what point do I need a lawyer? If I run a small business, when do I need someone on my side legally?” Because I see people do one of two things, either wait way too long, which is something that I may have done, or the second thing is get a lawyer way too quickly.
I think a lot of people have an idea and they immediately get a lawyer. I’m like, “I don’t know if you need a lawyer 100% of the time at that junction.” Tell me when does it make sense for a small business owner to bring someone on their side? What are some things that you see business owners doing that could put them in hot water because they don’t have an attorney?
Jennifer Justice:
Right. First, you need to start the company itself, and you don’t necessarily need to go to an attorney for that. Accountants can do that. If you’re doing a C corp, a clerk can do that, LegalZoom. You can start companies in other ways and it’s really, the decision is really more of a tax decision. You can shield yourself from liabilities with any kind of corporation that you start or LLC.
But it’s really a tax situation that somebody on the tax side should weigh in. But when you should start having attorneys, in particular, it’s different for every kind of business. If there’s a lot of regulation, et cetera, obviously you need it sooner rather than later, but let’s say it’s a services business or a small business like that.
You really need somebody anytime you need to reach an agreement with somebody that is longer than a few months, and you’re hiring them for some services. There’s confidentiality agreements. You want to make sure if work for hire, that anything that they produce is yours and you own it. Is there some kind of statement of work? What do you expect out of them?
Let’s sign that. The lawyer can… Obviously, everybody gets really nervous about it because it could be expensive, but it’s really money A, well spent because it’s building the foundation. That’s like the foundation of your company. If you don’t have it, something like that and something goes wrong, it can literally bury your entire company and bankrupt you.
You need those kinds of support and foundation. Doing the agreements, there are instances where you can get forms from an attorney and then have just the business deal terms as an exhibit, and you just negotiate those business deal terms. If anybody wants to change anything to the form, it’s legal. That’s when you loop in the lawyers.
It’s not like they’re drafting an agreement from scratch every time, so you pay a little more upfront to make sure you’re protected in the end. It just always shocks me when people are not hiring attorneys to do this. It’s like if you can decipher what every single paragraph means, then okay, great. But 99.9% of the time you can’t.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Jennifer Justice:
You don’t know what you’re signing. It’s like an agreement is like a puzzle piece. You have to make sure it all fits with what you’re doing.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. For me, it was I have a friend and a colleague and a mentor who is an employment law attorney, and we were starting to hire more and more people. She took a look at my website and she’s like, “You need certain things here for hiring in Washington state and you need to highlight these things.” She’s like, “Don’t you have a lawyer?” I was like, “No.” Then she goes, “You need a lawyer.”
I was like, “Okay.” Literally, that was the moment where it was like, “Okay, I need somebody.” Because it was like, “I need an employment law attorney.” We have a team that we still work with who’s phenomenal here in Seattle, that is largely in charge of drafting the contracts. You also don’t have to put somebody on retainer immediately.
It makes sense now for us at the size we’re at to have somebody on retainer, but you don’t have to pay a monthly retainer to a lawyer if you’re still really small and you only need, to your point, these ad hoc things.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah. But it’s always going to help to get that stuff locked down, for sure.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah. Unemployment law, of course, I represent a lot of C-suite women. There’s so many women that have come to me like, “Oh, I never negotiated my contract before.” I’m like, “What are you talking about? People know your name. You’re like a CEO or a CMO.” It’s like you have to take care of this stuff.
I do a lot of that kind of work too. The thing is, it’s like, “How does the company think that you’re going to protect them and represent them when you can’t do it for yourself?” You also have to think about that. You’re protecting something you’re building. You have to have that money. It’s set aside for legal, you have to, and definitely if you’re raising money.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Oh, without a doubt.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah. It’s part of your business.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. If you’re seeking VC, you need an attorney.
Jennifer Justice:
Any money, angel, anything. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, totally. We learned in our research, you’re a single mom of two. You quit your job with no plan. Talk us through that process.
Did you have any sort of net or was this jump and wait for the net to appear?
Jennifer Justice:
No, I had some kind of net. Yeah. It’s so funny because I talk about this scarcity mindset, but then I always make big things with abundance. My big moves are always in an abundance mindset. I had been with Jay for 17 years. I was really passionate about gender equality. I really wanted to make a difference there. I could do my job.
It was challenging, of course, and it was exciting, but I knew it with my eyes closed. I was like, “I wanted to challenge myself in a different way.” My kids were two and a half and they’re talking and stuff, but non-communicant beings can read your energy. You know what I mean? It’s like I wanted to know that every time I left them, I was super energized at what I was doing.
I have a boy and a girl, and I wanted to leave this world in a much better place for her because the stats, they’re still dismal. They’re so much better than they were. Not necessarily the stats of what we’re getting paid, et cetera, but the stats of how many of us are fed up and pissed off, that’s amazing because that means we can change things.
The amount of us building our own companies because we don’t conform into a patriarchal corporation or society in a working environment and doing it for ourselves. What you’re doing, what I’ve been doing, I mean all with the same mission and vision. It’s like to empower us to always have the abundance mindset and make decisions because money, people say it doesn’t buy happiness, but it does.
Tori Dunlap:
It does.
Jennifer Justice:
You’re a lot happier when you have choices.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep.
Jennifer Justice:
It buys you choices, it buys you convenience, it buys you the head space, so there’s a lot of ways that it can help you.
The world is going to be a much better place when women are making the same decision about their body because they can, because they have the financial wherewithal to do it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Everything you just said is like, “Yep, plus one on that.” Yeah, and it provides you safety and stability.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah, exactly. Back to that main point of I jumped without a net. No, I did have money and I did have 17 years of being with one of the most revered entertainers and entrepreneurs still, in not only just the music industry, but just throughout business. So I knew I wouldn’t have a problem. I’ve never taken time off, ever. Since I was 14 years old, I’ve had a job.
I never, even through law school, everything, and had the means to just sit back and chill. Not like I did that though, unfortunately, but I took six months before I started the new job. But I was so used to just working that I was just like, “Ah.” About a month in, I was like, “Okay, I’m going to take a transcendental meditation course. I’m going to take a cooking course. I’m going to start doing these things and not look for a job yet.”
But yeah, I had that net. I had been working with an executive coach too, who was talking me through things and like, “What are you scared of? What’s the worst that’s going to happen? You can always get a job as a lawyer, you can get a job as a competitor. You can do something that is not so sexy to you right now just to make you feel good until you’re ready to do something sexier.”
Tori Dunlap:
I love what you just said and I want to call it out, because I think even when I asked the question and when our team built that question. I think of net as specifically financial security or immediate like, “I know these force people that I can already work with.” But I love that your version is also, “I had years of experience. I had nearly two decades of experience doing this. I have a network that I can reach out to. I might not know the exact plan.”
But really what you’re saying is like, “I bet on myself. I had the confidence that I had the credibility and I have the experience to actually make this work.” That when I do have these moments of, “Oh shit, I don’t know what I’m doing, I actually will figure it out. I will use and rely on my previous experience and all of the hard work I’ve been doing, to make this happen for myself.”
I just really want to call that out, because it’s how I wish more women took “risks.” Because it’s like most of the things we deem risky are really not that scary, because we doubt ourselves.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah. I really give credit to my executive coach for that because she was like, “When have you ever not had a job or done really well?”
I was like, “Oh, never.” I was like, “Oh, okay. Why am I putting these [inaudible 00:31:30] on myself? When have I not figured it out?”
While it was scary, it was scary, but at the same time it was like I made that decision like that and did it the next day.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah. I needed to build and bet on myself, but build something for me.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and to continue that throughline, one of the things that we met at a women’s founders’ retreat. You were really encouraging all of the women in the room to think strategically about building a business.
Dreaming bigger when it came to partnerships. Why do you think so many women play small or smaller than they need to in entrepreneurship?
Jennifer Justice:
Look, we’ve been told our entire lives that we’re not good enough and we don’t do it, and we look outside and we go like, “Oh, well, men are always our bosses.” You know what I mean? It’s in us. Also, some of these things we come about honestly, we’re fed all this information so we don’t think that we deserve it.
Two, we’re community driven by nature too, and so it’s like, “Okay. Well, we just want everybody to get along and don’t want to rock the boat so much.” Those two things combined can prevent you from really going big in the first place. Then it’s all the other barriers that are not our fault, knowing we don’t get as much money.
People don’t think the problems that we’re solving for are as big as we know that they are because they’re solving for us. You know what I mean? It’s like think about all the things that are going on with menopause. It’s like every single woman is lucky if she gets to go through menopause, because it means she’s lived to a certain age.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Jennifer Justice:
No one has ever talked about it until the last five, six years. It’s crazy.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. I feel like there’s so many of those things like endometriosis, miscarriage.
Jennifer Justice:
All the health stuff.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, all of these things that are somehow so common and yet so taboo. I mean periods, even that is-
Jennifer Justice:
Periods.
Tori Dunlap:
So much of it is so deeply impactful to women or people with uteruses on a day-to-day basis, and yet it’s just like nobody’s talking about it.
Or women are talking about it, but men are only starting to wake up to like, “Maybe we should work to solve this or help support people.”
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, crazy.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah. Wearing tampons that have not been changed at all, or not actually questioning what’s in them for 100 years.
I was just with a doctor who told us for a pap smear, the speculum was invented in Roman times. It’s never changed.
Tori Dunlap:
I just saw that too because there was literally yesterday, there was the first FDA trials of an at-home, the ability to check yourself at home for, do a pap smear at home.
Literally, all the stats were like 90% of people would rather do it at home. I’m like, “Of course, we would. It’s so uncomfortable.”
Jennifer Justice:
Who was like, “I can’t wait to get up in there and get those stirrups”?
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Jennifer Justice:
Said no one ever.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Jennifer Justice:
Oh my God. Yeah. All those things, and thank God, because people were like, “Wait, why can’t I solve this issue? If not me, then who?”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, yeah. We were talking about entrepreneurship. I imagine, and I know from both my personal experience and also talking with so many women, that this is also C-suite, exec-level too of just this doubting of our own confidence, this doubting of our own ability.
I don’t know, tell me more about that, of even as you rise up the ranks and you get more successful, there’s still doubt.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah, I don’t know that that’s ever going to stop. I think that’s human nature in and of itself. I know that people are trying to get rid of this imposter syndrome and using that term. I get it, but every day it’s just like, “Oh, what am I doing?” My company’s almost five years old and sometimes I’m like, “God, am I really good? Should I be doing this?” You know what I mean? Because everyone has these doubts. It’s like it could be anything.
You just didn’t sleep well enough, or you just had a bad call with a client. It’s like, “Oh, this is not for me.” I just think it’s human nature and you just accept it. I think you really, instead of beating yourself up over it, go, “It’s human nature, but I know that this is going to pass and I’m going to turn it around.” If that day you have to cancel a few meetings because you’re not going to be on, then you cancel a few meetings.
Then make sure you’re ready and that you’re going to be on. Those times, that ebb and flow, it might take a bit longer, but you’ll get used to it and you’ll build on those. Just be really real with yourself why you’re thinking these things. Everyone knows that one door shuts, another one opens. We all know this, we’ve all been through it.
It’s proven itself time and time again, and so to have that confidence, it’s a conscious decision on a daily basis.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I would love to talk about negotiating like a lawyer. If I’m a small business owner and I am brokering deals, what does that process look like for you? Are you going to someone in your network?
Are you cold pitching? When you see somebody lose a deal, what happened? What are the no-no’s to avoid? Again, if I’m a small business owner trying to broker partnerships, what should I be doing? What should I not be doing from your experience?
Jennifer Justice:
If you are a small business doing partnerships, you really need to dig down and first do all the research. You need to think about what’s really going to drive your business. It’s not just, “Oh, it’s cool.” It has to be you want to captivate an audience that you do not yet have. You want to be able to utilize this partnership or sponsorship financially is great.
But if there’s also things that you can do in trade with them that helps you grow, that’s another way to think about it. Also, you want to make sure that you can grow. That they’re going to do the things for you, that will help propel the business. If that’s a person or influencer, or a celebrity partner, or if that’s like you getting a sponsorship from a major airline or whatever that is.
You also have to make sure you’re playing in your space. It’s like if you don’t have the visibility, then you can’t go to Fortune 500 company, but you could go to a smaller company that’s growing like you are and grow together and use each other for this. It’s really, at the end of the day, it’s got to benefit both parties. It can’t just benefit you.
You’re going to be wasting a lot of time going after the things. People that do not benefit, if you don’t benefit them or they don’t benefit you, time and energy because ultimately you’re running your business day to day. This is an ancillary revenue stream, and do you have the mind share and the brain capacity to do it and get it done?
Then once you do get a deal, you also have to have the team to execute it. You got to be able to execute on it. Do you have the people to do the social media and to do the content capture, and do whatever it is that those deliverables are? You have to make sure that those, that you are able to get that executed and done efficiently and right, so you don’t leave a bad taste in your partner’s mouth.
Tori Dunlap:
One of the things you just said that I think is so important to discuss, because it was something I struggled with is, “I don’t want to work for free because that’s against women’s rights and against me as a business owner, and what I value and my time is valuable.” But at the same time, you were just talking about a trade.
There have been times where especially recently, I am more strategic of like, “Okay, I might speak at this event. You don’t have the budget, but you’re going to pay me in these other ways.” Again, even saying this, I cringe a little bit because it’s like there’s only certain circumstances where this works.
Especially, it’s so hard if you’re a newbie business owner to figure out when is this a circumstance where I will get paid in connections, get paid in exposure? But when does it actually make sense to say, “Yep, I’m going to take this even if it’s a trade versus no, I need to get paid”?
Jennifer Justice:
Again, it has to ultimately do with what you’re getting exposed to and what you’re getting out of it. What they have to offer and you have to make sure that it’s real. You have to do the research and check under the hood, and make sure that they’re going to do those things.
Yes, it’s not something you want to do every day, but there’s a lot of people who cut off their nose to spite their face because of it and they want to get paid. Where it’s just like, “This could be massive, so why not do it?” Think of it like going on the Today Show or Good Morning America.
When I went on the Today Show, I will always have been on the Today Show now. They don’t pay you, you know what I mean?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, people don’t realize that. Let’s pause for a second. My mom literally asked me the other day, she’s like, “Did they pay you to go on Good Morning America?” I go, “No.” People pay $30,000, $50,000, $100,000 to go on Good Morning America. I’m like, “Oh no, and they don’t pay for your flight out there typically either.”
Yeah. Those opportunities, I want to be on Today, I want to be on GMA, I want to be on NBC News or whatever. You get to say forever, “I’ve appeared on the Today Show.” Yeah, they’re not paying you an appearance fee to be there. You should just be so lucky you get to be on the Today Show at all. Yeah, that’s kind of the narrative.
Jennifer Justice:
I’m using an example like that to prove a point. It’s got to be something that’s really big and really does benefit you. Another thing, if you’re a product company and you can get your product in front of a bunch of people that are your audience and not normally your audience, and giving that away and gifting.
I know so many people who are like, “I’m not going to gift my stuff away.” I was like, “That is not the right move.” Especially with social media, you don’t have to tell people you want to post it, but a lot of people will. When everybody on your feed starts seeing the same thing, you’re like, “Wait, what is that thing? Why don’t I have it?” There’s a lot of opportunities in that.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally. One of the fun questions that I have for you. I imagine you’ve worked with a lot of, let’s call them big personalities, which you can find in any industry.
How do you navigate relationships with big personalities?
Jennifer Justice:
Well, I think you have to ask yourself why there is a big personality in the first place. Is it based on insecurity? Is it based on the leverage? What’s it based on? What you want the end result to be. Ultimately, what is your goal when you go in and you’re talking to these people? You have to adjust from a negotiation standpoint, you have to adjust based on that.
It’s like, “If this is my ultimate goal to get XYZ done, then I can’t get my back up about certain things they say, or passive-aggressive behavior or taking things personally.” Because ultimately, your goal is to get XYZ. It’s not to freak out because they’re yelling at you or they’re talking negatively to you or whatever it is. You got to keep your eye on the prize and not be emotional in that particular point.
I hate it when women are so emotional in business and it’s okay. It’s like men are passionate, women are emotional, but when you’re in these particular instances dealing with big personalities, nothing is about you. You know what I mean? It’s like they’re not thinking of you, so know that and just go in and be like Michelle Obama. When they go low, you go high kind of thing, and just go in and get what you want out of it.
Because ultimately, if you lead with that, you are going to be so much happier and successful. You’re going to forget about all the other negative things or how hard it was, or how much time you had to spend doing it because you got what you needed.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Jennifer Justice:
All of them are different. Every one of them is different.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and you talked about not taking it personally. I don’t know if you have any strategies for not doing that. Maybe it’s just viewing the work as work.
But I think as someone personally who cares very much about my work, it’s very easy to take that and she took it personally, the Michael Jordan meme, but it’s very easy to do that. So do you have any tips or strategies for just making the work work?
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah. One of the things I say all the time, especially to women who maybe they work at companies and they’re being told, “Well, we just don’t really have the money,” and it’s like you take it personally. It’s like, “That’s not your problem, that’s their problem.” Every time that somebody is disrespecting you by not paying you enough or disrespecting you by not taking you seriously.
Or not giving you the deal that you want, don’t think of it that it’s about you. It’s taking time away from the thing that you care the most about. For me, it’s my two kids and I’ll do anything for them, so I’m not going to take it personally about me. I’m going to be like, “You’re now disrespecting my children and I’m just going to go and get the deal done because I don’t care.”
You know what I mean? You just get much more cutthroat about it, which is really one of the best things you can do in a negotiation. People want what they can’t have and you’re just like, “No.” When you just say no to somebody or you’re able to put it and frame it in a different perspective to be like, “Yeah, that’s not going to work for me.” People are like, “Wait, what? What did you just say?”
Yeah, maybe you can talk to other people like that, but you can’t talk to me like that. Maybe you’re in a bad mood. Why don’t we pick it up later? You can say these things and people are like, “Wait, what did you just say to me?” They get embarrassed.
Tori Dunlap:
It makes you appear more valuable too. That’s the thing that I wish women understood about negotiations too, is if you say, “Yeah, that’s not going to work for me. Here’s what is.” Yeah, you take the control back in the situation.
There’s also this moment where they’re like, “Oh shit, she has boundaries and she has standards, and she must be really good at her job.” If she’s cultivated this level, it makes them want you more and on the off chance it doesn’t, well, it’s not a company that you want to work for anyway.
Jennifer Justice:
Exactly, exactly. You’re hitting these barriers and barriers. I’ve had clients too are like, “Oh, once I get in there, it’s going to be fine.” I’m like, “No, no, no. The red flags are right here. They’re right in front of your face. Look at them.” It’s fine if you want to still go in there, but all I’m asking is to look at those red flags and know that that’s going to be the same when you’re in there.
Know that whoever you’re dealing with, a deal shouldn’t be that hard. If it takes too long and it’s too hard, it’s probably not meant to be. It’s no different than any other relationship in your life. If that is your partner in life, if it’s your boss, if it’s anything, a friend. If it’s difficult and you’re just always anxious around it, it’s probably not going to work.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. You’re going to have difficult times, but if, yeah, the baseline is just like, “This feels gross or this feels hard all the time.”
Yeah, that’s not a relationship worth keeping, and I say that from personal experience.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah, it’s not. As you know, and hope you’re going to be on my podcast, Takin’ Care of Lady Business. The theme is, and I interview all women entrepreneurs, is the theme is is that once you trust your intuition, it all feels right.
When you go against it, every single one of them has said, “When I went against it, something bad happened.” We’re lucky as women to have that female intuition. We have that sixth sense. It’s like we know when things are not going to work to our advantage.
Tori Dunlap:
If you’re watching on YouTube, you just saw my face, which was just like this nod, but a very knowing nod because yeah, literally to your point, I’m not kidding. Every single time I did not listen to my gut, it came back to bite me in the ass, every single time. Yeah, could not agree more.
I wanted to transition into talking about you as an angel investor. I share that with you. It’s a very exciting thing that I’ve started doing, but we have a lot of business owners who want to know from angel investors what do you look for? What do you look for in an entrepreneur? What do you look for in a business before you invest?
Jennifer Justice:
I think what I look for in an entrepreneur is somebody who’s self-aware, who knows what they are capable of and what they’re not capable of. It’s like I know that I can grow a business, but I know that I’ve never scaled something from 50, 100 people to 10,000. That to me is so crazy. When you look at the Googles and things like that like, “Who did that?” To know that there’s a time when probably is a good time to you to step aside.
You’re still the owner, you’re still the founder, but maybe you’re not the best to be the CEO to grow to those next levels. Or maybe you are the creative person and you started as a CEO, know when it’s time to just do the creative. That to me is somebody I will want to be in business with. You’re a visionary and you want to grow something really big and you’re determined to do it. You got this far that you can go and ask people for money.
But I also want to know that you are aware of your limits as well, because not everybody can be everything. You just can’t. It’s like I’m not going to all of a sudden be a creative. I’ve been on the business side. I know how to marry art and commerce. I’m good at that, but I’m not all of a sudden going to go be a chief content or creative officer at my company, because that’s not what I do. You know what I mean?
Tori Dunlap:
Well, it sounds like a lack of ego too. It’s like when do I need to give this up? Because that’s one thing I see with entrepreneurs all the time.
Something I’ve had to fight in myself is it’s like sometimes we just feel like, “No, it’s our business, so I should know how to do this or I want the control over it.”
I think the smart move you can make is, to your point, figuring out when do I need help from somebody else, or when is it time to hand over the reins? Yeah.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah, and not do all the jobs. It’s like, “Why are you doing the accounting when you are not an accountant?” You can hire somebody for $300 a month for that if you’re not doing that. Or why are you trying to do all the legal stuff by yourself?
It’s just not okay. It’s like understand how to really grow is to hire the people who are experts. You’re going to be learning some on the job, but you shouldn’t be learning whole new degrees on the job, you should not. I don’t want to learn how to build a website.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. I will say, I think first couple of years you got to be scrappy, and then once you start building a business where you are seeking significant investment.
Yeah. It’s time to start investing, pun intended, in somebody else or in another service so that you’re not handling all of that. You can do what you’re actually good at.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah, exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
I would love to hear more about The Justice Dept, which is your company and what you do, as well as your podcast.
Jennifer Justice:
Thank you. The Justice Dept is a business strategy, business development consulting company that works with female founders to help them grow and scale their business in areas of consumer, retail, tech, basically everything but biotech and aerospace, in all different companies. What that means is that we help them for a period of time with a certain statement of work, get either more female investors on the cap table so they can grow and scale their business.
Have these women that are championing and cheerleading for the company, which is what we like to do. We control all of the purchasing power in the house, so if we’re invested in it, we’re going to buy it and tell all our friends about it. I help them with business strategy from any kind of statement of work that has to do obviously in any entertainment and the music industry, partnerships. I just put together a big celebrity partnership with a menopause brand.
I helped Taryn Toomey, The Class and doing all their music strategy, because they’re fitness, but music’s ancillary in the background. I’ve helped Apricot find all of their retail partners. I’ve helped West-bourne get women on the cap table and get an SPV together and talk about their brand. I’ve helped Miss Grass, Yola Mezcal, all these really great companies of women and help them hypergrow when they don’t have a female co-founder or something.
It’s like a pop-up co-founder from the business strategy, business development side, which is different. A lot of people look at the marketing and branding side of things, but this is like I even helped them figure out the right attorneys to hire. Because that’s daunting and they think that they should hire one big firm, and the next thing you know, they’re paying 30 grand a month and they don’t need to pay 30 grand a month.
I’ll tell you which trademark attorney to hire, which corporate attorney to hire and what you need. I act as like a de facto general counsel. Then I also have the law firm where I still represent some talent and I represent and help them with all of their deals, sponsorship, endorsement, building businesses, as well as a lot of female executives. Helping them with their deals on the way in, and unfortunately on the way out.
A lot of female-founded companies and the stuff we were talking about earlier, and in their independent contractor needs, et cetera. It’s all with a common vein of helping women get rich and helping them get more money. It’s like in case they’re feeling smaller or not worth it, I am here. As I’ve told one of my clients recently, she’s like, “I know you’re not my therapist.”
I was like, “No, I have news for you. I’m your therapist. I’m your best friend. I’m your lawyer and executive coach all in one while I’m helping you with this deal. Because I’m going to get you out of your own way and get you way more money and you’re going to get a big invoice from me, but you’re not going to feel it because I’ve gotten you so much more money.”
Tori Dunlap:
Which that is the vibe. That is what we want always.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Tell me about your online course as well.
Jennifer Justice:
Oh, yeah, and my podcast and my online course. The podcast is called Takin’ Care of Lady Business. I started it because there’s just so much, so many terms that need to be demystified in business. What really was the catalyst to me is I was on a call, was hired by a private equity company to help them navigate buying a publishing company in the music industry.
I was on this call and they all kept talking about dry powder, dry powder. Thankfully, I was on the call and I could look it up. I was like, “What the hell is dry powder?” I’d look it up and it just means extra money. I was like, “These are the terms that drive women crazy and intimidate us and make us feel like we don’t know what we’re doing, in all those”-
Tori Dunlap:
I thought cocaine.
Jennifer Justice:
No, they weren’t talking about cocaine.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know what that is.
Jennifer Justice:
It’s so stupid. It’s like why did you say?
Tori Dunlap:
I’ve never heard dry powder either.
Jennifer Justice:
We’ll take a little bit.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m literally going to open up a new tab, dry powder.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Cash or marketable securities, okay.
Jennifer Justice:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Great.
Jennifer Justice:
More cash. I was like, “You know what? I know all these amazing women in VC who started their company, Karen Cahn from IFundWomen, Beth Ferrer is a big VC.” All of these women who’ve done all these amazing things, and other women want to learn from other women. The whole point of the podcast is to get inspiration from them or hire them or get real tangible tips.
If you can see it, you can be it, and really get down to things they did well, things that they did not do well. I completed my 100 episodes and now we’re just about to start recording the next 10. Our friend, Rebecca Minkoff, was number 100, so that was awesome. I’ve had Sallie Krawcheck on, I’ve had Jenny Jost. Not Jennifer Justice, Jenny Jost, first female billionaires, just really amazing women in all different aspects.
I knew that I was dealing with and hitting a bunch of women that are probably 30 and above. They were starting companies or they have big deals to do, unless their talent. But ultimately I was like, “You know what? Where we really are missing out though, is when you’re first getting out of college and you get your first job offer. How do you negotiate that and what does it entail?”
It’s no longer an hourly job and this is where we’re missing out. This is like that start is where it’s really difficult to then recover from, in particular, if you stay at the same company for a very long period of time. What are the components of that? It’s not just your salary, it’s not. There are other components to that that you can help grow and faster.
Because I’m sure you talk about amortization on here all the time and amortize over a long period of time, you’re missing out. If you’re not negotiating, not just your salary, but the other deal terms that matter a lot, like your title, like equity, like bonus, et cetera. You’re going to be way behind your coworkers, and nobody cares if you negotiate your deal or not.
If you don’t, they’re like, “Great, sign here,” but you should try, you know what I mean? This is the course of talking about those different ways and different items and things that you should be negotiating, that help you grow and then ways that you can move it forward. It’s called Be the Boss of Your Career, and so we’ll launch it around March, April. I’m excited.
Tori Dunlap:
Amazing.
Jennifer Justice:
Because I just have felt like that is an age range that I’ve been missing. I really want to help with all of my experience of negotiating thousands of employment agreements.
To help them see how they can do it by themselves until they can hire attorneys, which I definitely think they should be hiring if they’re a VP or above, for sure.
Tori Dunlap:
I will echo, as someone who also teaches women, largely younger women, how to negotiate their salaries. You can negotiate. You’ve been told that you don’t have a lot of power and that you just should be happy to have a job. You can negotiate your first, second, third jobs, et cetera. Don’t feel like you can’t.
It’s also good practice. I also say that success in a negotiation doesn’t mean you got what you wanted. It meant that you tried and you prepared, and you walked into the conversation as well-prepared as you could be. That’s success. Yeah, I want to echo everything you just said. It’s always so important to negotiate, but especially earlier in your career.
Jennifer Justice:
Yes. Yes, for sure.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, I am so thrilled to just have you on the show and to be able to share all of your resources. I just want to thank you for your time.
All of those resources, we will link down in the show notes. Yeah, what’s your website? Where can people find all of your resources?
Jennifer Justice:
It is www.thejusticeD-E-P-T.com, because believe it or not, that government agency called the justice department did not buy that domain name. I got it on GoDaddy for $14.99.
Tori Dunlap:
We love it.
Jennifer Justice:
So it’s mine.
Tori Dunlap:
But You got it. Thank you so much for being here.
Jennifer Justice:
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you to JJ for joining us. You can listen to her podcast, Takin’ Care of Lady Business, wherever you’re listening right now. We appreciate you being here. As always, Financial Feminist, thank you for your support of the show. You can subscribe, you can leave us a voicemail if you have questions, and you can share this episode with someone who you think would love it.
Thank you for your support of us and the Financial Feminist movement. I hope you have a kick-ass week. Bye. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields. Associate Producer Tamisha Grant, research by Ariel Johnson. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf.
Marketing and operations by Karina Patel, Amanda Leffew, Elizabeth McCumber, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Kailyn Sprinkle, Sasha Bonar, Claire Kurronen, Daryl Ann Ingram and Jenell Riesner. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K team and community for supporting this show.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over one million women negotiate salary, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of almost 250,000 on Instagram and more than 1.6 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
