In this captivating episode of the Financial Feminist podcast, Tori Dunlap welcomes the inspiring travel content creator and author, Kacie Rose Burns. Join us as Kacie shares her incredible journey from being a professional performer in New York to becoming an expat living in Florence, Italy. Her story is a testament to the transformative power of solo travel and embracing the unknown. Kacie’s experiences highlight the unique challenges and immense rewards of moving abroad, navigating cultural differences, and finding financial independence. If you’ve ever dreamed of living overseas or simply want to take back the power in your own life, this episode is a must-listen.
Tune in as Tori and Kacie delve into the nitty-gritty details of expat life, including the financial preparations needed to make such a significant move, the emotional rollercoaster of homesickness, and the resilience required to handle online hate as a public figure. Kacie also gives us a sneak peek into her new book, “You Deserve Good Gelato,” which encourages readers to travel the world, embrace failure, and conquer their fears. Don’t miss out on this enlightening conversation that promises to inspire and motivate you to step out of your comfort zone and explore the world with confidence.
Key takeaways:
- Traveling as a woman fosters independence and strength. Traveling, especially solo travel, empowers women by allowing them to realize their independence, capability, and strength. It challenges societal norms that suggest women need a companion to travel.
- Living abroad presents both challenges and opportunities for personal growth. Living abroad involves numerous challenges, including homesickness, navigating foreign bureaucracy, and adapting to new cultural norms. However, these challenges also provide invaluable life lessons and personal growth opportunities.
- Financial preparation is essential for moving abroad. Moving abroad requires significant financial planning, including saving money for visa applications, initial living expenses, and potential legal and accounting fees. Starting a separate savings account specifically for this purpose is highly recommended.
- Adapting to cultural differences enriches life experiences. Understanding and adapting to cultural differences, such as the Italian approach to rest and work-life balance, can be challenging but ultimately enriching. Embracing these differences can lead to a more balanced and fulfilling life.
- Support systems and community are vital when living abroad. Building a support network and finding community, whether through social media, local groups, or friends, is crucial for emotional well-being and practical support when adjusting to life in a new country.
- Accepting vulnerability can lead to personal growth and stronger connections. Both Tori and Kacie emphasize the importance of being vulnerable, whether it’s about admitting struggles with mental health, homesickness, or the pressures of public life. This vulnerability can lead to deeper connections and personal growth.
Notable quotes
“When women travel for the first time by themselves, you feel like the most powerful fucking badass because you’re like, ‘I did this with my own money. I got myself here. That train was delayed, and I had to figure something out.’ You realize you can do anything.”
“Posting and interacting with people online has saved me. It’s like the same world that was causing me to go insane was also saving me from total disintegration.”
“You can simultaneously mourn your old life while also embracing your new one. They can coexist healthily with each other. It’s not a one or the other situation, and it shouldn’t be a one or the other situation.”
Episode at-a-glance:
≫ 01:36 Who is Kacie Rose Burns?
≫ 04:08 Kacie’s engagement story
≫ 08:00 Deciding to move to Italy
≫ 17:12 Navigating expat life
≫ 35:55 Cultural shocks and adaptation
≫ 48:16 Navigating international taxes and legalities
≫ 51:24 The reality of online criticism
≫ 57:21 Social media and mental health
≫ 01:00:35 Empowerment through adversity
≫ 01:13:30 Finding joy in Italian culture
≫ 01:27:10 Book launch and tour details
Kacie’s Links:
Kacie’s website: Kacie Rose Travel
Kacie’s book: You Deserve Good Gelato
Kacie’s audiobook
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Meet Kacie
Kacie is a travel content creator and author living in Florence, Italy. after a life-changing solo trip and her own little ‘Under the Tuscan Sun’ moment, she made the official move to Italy in January 2021. through positivity, authenticity, and humor, she began sharing culture shocks, travel tips, and life abroad across her social media, where her following quickly grew to a community of over 1.5 million people.
From explaining why you won’t find “pepperoni pizza” and “lattes” in Italy, to hosting guided group tours and publishing her new book, “You Deserve Good Gelato,” Kacie’s goal is to encourage and help her community travel abroad by showing them the beauty of culture differences, all the while reminding them that they are strong, deserving, and so much more capable than they think they are.
Transcript:
Kacie Rose Burns:
You can simultaneously mourn your old life, while also embracing your new one. They can coexist healthily with each other. It’s not a one or the other situation, and it shouldn’t be a one or the other situation. All the emotions, they coexist, and they coincide with each other, and that’s how they are able to adapt and grow and change. I have so many moments where I am three years living here now, and I get a lot of messages where people are like, “When does it get easier? When does the homesickness go away?” And I’m like, “I don’t think it ever will go away.”
Tori Dunlap:
Hello, Financial Feminists. Welcome to the show. My name is Tori. I’m so excited you’re here. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening to this show. We put a lot of hard work and time, and it’s not just me, but our entire team, into this show, so we appreciate your support of it. If you’re an oldie but a goodie, welcome back. And if you are new, hi, my name is Tori. I run Her First $100K, which is a money and career platform for women. I believe I was put on this earth to fight for your financial rights. And on Financial Feminists, we talk about how money affects women differently, and it’s the number one money podcast for women in the world, which is fucking cool and amazing.
A couple housekeeping. You can subscribe if you like the show, and you don’t want to miss an episode. We also have over 150 episodes literally covering every topic you could think of, from infertility to sex work, to Roth IRAs, to paying off student loans, and everything in between. So please go back and listen to an episode. And if you have a question about money that you would like me to answer, you can drop a voicemail in the little voicemail URL down below, and we might use it for an upcoming episode.
Okay, today’s episode. First of all, we have one of the biggest announcements on this show that we’ve ever had at the beginning. And I’m not going to spoil it. No, I’m going to spoil it. She got engaged. My friend Kacie, who is on the show today, got engaged to her Italian boyfriend who she met on a solo trip one night at a jazz club. That’s all I’m going to say. We talk more about it, it’s fucking cool. I did not know she literally got engaged that day. It was thrilling. It was so exciting. So we start off the episode with that, and it just gets cooler from there.
So, Kacie Rose Burns is a travel content creator and author living in Florence, Italy. After a life-changing solo trip and her own little under the Tuscan sun moment, she made the official move to Italy in January, 2021. Through positivity, authenticity, and humor, she began sharing culture shocks, travel tips, and life abroad across her social media where her following quickly grew to a community of over 1.5 million people. From explaining why you won’t find pepperoni pizza and lattes in Italy to hosting guided group tours and publishing her new book, You Deserve Good Gelato, which is out now, Kacie’s goal is to encourage and help her community travel abroad by showing them the beauty of cultural differences, all the while reminding them that they are strong, deserving, and so much more capable than they think they are.
We talk about a lot in this episode. It’s one of the longest episodes I think we’ve done in a really long time because we just kept talking. It was like two friends catching up. We talk about expat life, all the nuances including homesickness, and then feeling guilty that you’re homesick, and the financial implications of moving abroad as well as some culture shocks. If you’ve ever thought about living in a country that is not your own, listen to this episode.
We also get really granular about how much it can cost to get a visa, even if you’re living there temporarily, why it’s so incredibly important to travel for women. And if you can, to travel by yourself, and we talk about how to do that. And we also just get really vulnerable about our struggles with being public facing people, about being content creators, about posting online and having a lot of our lives opened up to people, and how the world of the internet might be doing actually more harm than good.
So without further ado, this is an incredible conversation that will foster your love of travel, and let’s go ahead and get into it.
But first, a word from our sponsors.
So before we hit record, and I wish we would’ve hit record sooner, Kacie put her hand up and we had got a glittering rock on this finger. I am so thrilled for you. Okay?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Thank you. I know, I really sprung that on you. I was like, “Look.”
Tori Dunlap:
Bam, bitch. Look! No, that’s so… Okay. We’ll get into the meat queue. And when you realize that she’s now engaged to a person she met on a solo trip to Italy, who’s also Italian, you’re going to really love it. So, okay. Proposal story, you have to tell me. I’m so excited for you.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Oh my God, no. Okay, so we were up north on a trip. We went to Lake Como for a couple of days, and it’s so funny, Tori, because I woke up this morning feeling so sick, so sick. Pollen is in the air, feeling so sick. And we went by motorcycle. And so we had to leave early in the morning to get back down to Florence, it’s like a three and a half hour drive, something like that. And Dario was like, we waited a little bit longer because I wasn’t feeling good. And he was like, “I really want to stop by this scenic spot to fly my drone. Is that okay?” And I was like, “Yeah, of course, let’s go.”
And so we drive up there, and we get to the point, and it’s like another 30 minute walk uphill. We didn’t know it was another 30 minute walk to get to the spot. And he was like, “There’s no way.” And I was like, “There’s no way, I can’t.” I’m just like, “I need to stay on ground.” And so he drives a little bit further, and we find this little secluded area that still has a scenic overlook, there was a horse, and he gets off his drone and he starts flying it around. And five minutes later, he came over to me and he started talking and I was like, “He is talkative.” And then I looked over and I saw the drone was pointed toward us, and then I looked back, and yeah, and that’s it.
Tori Dunlap:
Did you black out? Do you remember anything he said?
Kacie Rose Burns:
A little bit. A mixture of both.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I blacked out a little bit and I remember some things, but at that moment, it was just like, “Oh my God.” Because I knew it was coming, but I didn’t know in that moment it was coming. That’s it.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m so excited.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It feels weird. I’m looking around, I’m like, “Wah.” It’s so weird.
Tori Dunlap:
And you’re like, my hand’s a little heavier. Oh my God, I’m so happy for you.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Thanks. Thanks. Thanks.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, I don’t even know. Okay, so I guess we have all these questions about solo travel and all of this-
Kacie Rose Burns:
Like, where you want to go?
Tori Dunlap:
But I feel like we have to start with, I think so much of this, and we travel regardless of whether we’re going to even meet a hot Italian man or not. So if we talk about… Fucking… I’m just so excited. I’m just so excited.
Kacie Rose Burns:
And it’s so funny because I was like, “I don’t want any people around. I want it to be me and you and there to be nobody.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yep, yep. I don’t want it to be this public display. I want it to be an actual thing I get to answer without feeling any sort of pressure.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Exactly. And I do remember first thing he said, he was like, “I hope it’s okay there’s a horse here.” Because I had wanted nobody. And he was like, “I hope it’s okay that there’s a horse.”
Tori Dunlap:
And you’re like, neigh.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It’s okay. That would’ve been a better answer. Do you want to go back, and we can try it again? You can answer.
Tori Dunlap:
No, I wouldn’t have…
Kacie Rose Burns:
That’s so funny.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, so I’m just so thrilled for you. I’m so excited for you.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Thanks.
Tori Dunlap:
For those people who are listening who don’t know, our friend just got engaged, so that’s so exciting. And she got engaged, like I said before, to a lovely Italian man that you met on a solo trip to Italy. So I know you’ve told this story a thousand times on Instagram, but I feel like if we’re leading with engagement, we got to go back. So talk to me about where you were at, what your life was like, what was going on when you were like, “Fuck it, I’m going to Italy.”
Kacie Rose Burns:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I was working as a performer in New York. I was professional performer, so I would travel around the country, get hired out to dance and things like that. And if you know anything about that industry, it’s a hard fucking industry to be in. It is not easy. It’s a lot of rejection. It’s a lot of stress. And I was at a point where I was so anxious, I was having frequent anxiety attacks, if not every day, every other day, frequently. And I was feeling just very stuck and very lost and just like, I don’t really know, just stuck. You know that feeling of just undescribable stuck? And I’d always wanted to go to Italy. I don’t know why. I’m only 2% Italian, that can’t explain why, but I’d always wanted to go to Italy ,and I was waiting and waiting and waiting for somebody to go with. I kept saying, “When I have somebody to go with, when I have a friend or a boyfriend or something like that, then I’ll go.”
And I don’t know if it was divine intervention or my subconscious finally entering the chat, but it really was just this smack in the head moment, lying in bed awake at 2:00 AM, and it was like, why don’t you just go? And so I was like, “Yeah, why don’t I just go?”
I looked up flights the next morning or in that moment, I looked up flights, a one-way flight into Venice, I found for $200. In my mind, I had always thought that it was $2,000 and I was like, “200?” I was like, “I can swing 200, I can work for the next eight months and figure out a way to get this flight.”
And yeah, so I booked it and then ended up fast-forward doing this whole solo trip. I did Venice, Florence and Rome, and then after Rome, I went to Paris. Because, again, that flight was stupidly cheap, and why not?
But on my first day in Florence is when I met Dario. I went to a jazz club, cool spot underground. It’s called Jazz Club Firenze. Went down there, he was there. Next thing I know, we’re talking all night, and here we are six years later.
Yep, yep. We did long distance for a year. Then he came to live with me in New York for a year, then we moved back in January, 2021.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m just sitting crying.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Oh my God, friend, I love you.
Tori Dunlap:
I am so excited for you.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Oh my gosh.
Tori Dunlap:
And, again, we’re so excited. And this podcast is very, of course, feminist and independence, and it’s just this happy accident of meeting the love of your life. But I think that what I wanted, every single woman, there’s so many messages I get, and I know you get so many… Oh, it’s going to make me really cry. There’s just so many women who are waiting. There’s so many women. Usually, I have my little cry moment a half hour in. But we’re here already. There’s so many women who just-
Kacie Rose Burns:
Listen, we’re here.
Tori Dunlap:
They wait, they wait, and they go, “Okay, I’ll wait for somebody to do this with,” or “It’s not the right time,” or “Yeah, I haven’t researched, but it’s got to be so much money, so I’m not going to do it.” And it’s just like, look at what happened. Even if you haven’t met him, hadn’t had that happen, there’s so much you would’ve learned.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah, and that’s the biggest thing is meeting Dario was a beautiful accident, but it was a beautiful added bonus. And I stand strong that a romantic relationship is not at all necessary to have a fulfilling experience abroad. Not at all necessary. It’s just a beautiful added bonus if it happens. But I totally agree with you about women waiting. And I think it’s something that we’re taught from a very young age of not trusting our own intuition, not trusting our own gut, not trusting our own ability to do hard things, which is just bullshit. It’s just bullshit. And being taught that the world is a big, bad, scary place that we should never explore instead of just approaching it with curious caution. And it’s sad, it sucks.
And I am so grateful that I had that experience, and I know that you’ve had that experience too, of just that realization that life is passing you by, and we can’t waste it. We only have so much time on the planet and we don’t get a do-over.
And I think coming to that realization is scary, but so necessary because you really start to be like, “I really need to take advantage of my time here.” So yeah, I totally get it. It makes me emotional when I think about it too, because how many messages I get where women are so afraid-
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, and hesitant, and yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It goes further than just being afraid. It goes further and deeper to be not even just afraid, but doubting their own ability to do hard things. And that’s what sucks.
Tori Dunlap:
They don’t think themselves worthy of it.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
They don’t think themselves worthy of their own money and time. And to your point about society, yes, there is safety concerns about traveling abroad. You have to be sometimes on guard. You have to make sure that you’re safe. But I feel like that gets so overblown and my not so conspiracy conspiracy theory is that women won’t do it because when women travel for the first time by themselves, you feel like the most powerful fucking badass because you’re like, “I did this with my own money. I got myself here. That train was delayed, and I had to figure something out.” You realize you can do anything.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. You start to realize that you are so capable of handling any unexpected hurdles that come your way. And more than that, you’re capable of being your own best friend. You are your own best friend. And when you start to love spending time with yourself, that is such a powerful, powerful thing to realize that you are your own best company, and you can do the hard things that are thrown at you completely on your own. You can, absolutely. And coming to that realization is so incredible, and it’s why we get along so well is just you also feel that way about women. And it’s just something that I wish more women would grab onto and realize.
Tori Dunlap:
Early 2021, I wasn’t doing very well mental health wise. And I took myself on a solo trip, and I lived somewhere tropical for a full month, and I lived by myself. And I had the moment almost every single day where I thought to myself, I was probably what, 26 when it happened? 27? And I remember thinking, “Most women will never either get the chance or take the chance to do something like this. Or they do when they’re 65 and retired, and they don’t have children, or the adult children have grown and they’re left the house, that’s the first opportunity that women take for themselves to be able to actually have time by themselves to be able to rest, to be able to do that.” And I remember feeling one, so grateful, but two, so angry of just like this should be what every single woman, especially as early as possible, in their twenties, in their thirties, has to experience.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And the thing is is it doesn’t have to be all or nothing. It doesn’t have to be automatically a trip across the sea or across the ocean. It doesn’t have to be this massively long plane ride. Start with the next city over, start with the next state over, then the next neighboring country. You can start small and build up. But the important part is that you do it. And to what you’re saying, listen, if you are 65 and you are at the point where this is something that you’ve never done and you want to do it, incredible, fucking incredible. Pop off. But I wish that we taught women from a young age, or I wish society in general didn’t put it in women’s heads that they aren’t capable of doing it because they are. And it’s just, yeah…
Tori Dunlap:
Or that you’re going to be lonely when you do it. You’re like, oh, you’re going to be lonely. And the other thing is you got to do it with a partner. And I know you met my best friend Christine, and we take trips every year together. And if you don’t want to do it alone, you don’t have to have a partner either. There’s people you can travel with, there’s people that you meet on trips, you literally host trips for women to go to Italy to meet other people. So there’s just other options.
And I also, to your point earlier, I don’t want this narrative of like, oh my God, you have to do it with somebody, or you’re lame, or it’s sad you don’t have anybody to go with. I am in New York right now. My partner’s literally flying here for the first time. He’s never been to New York. I’m so excited to have him. And I’m also not going to lie, I was journaling last night. I’m like, as much as I’m excited to see him and play tour guide, this is my city. I like being here by myself. I like listening to my music while I walk down the street. And so it’s going to be a weird adjustment. So yeah, there’s just so much flexibility with travel. You don’t have to do it with somebody else. You definitely don’t have to do it with a romantic partner. And these are all the lies we feed women.
Kacie Rose Burns:
No, totally. And the thing is is that if it’s your first solo trip, or even if you’re a seasoned solo traveler, it’s going to be lonely sometimes. You will have moments of loneliness.
Tori Dunlap:
Sometimes. Oh, totally.
Kacie Rose Burns:
And that’s okay. It’s okay because we’ve been taught, it’s like a primitive instinct to stick with the group, to stick with the pact. That’s a survival instinct that we don’t need anymore, thankfully. But when you start to realize that, again, you are your own best company, it’s just like creme de la creme, and you get over that loneliness. Yeah, I totally get it.
Tori Dunlap:
Most of my questions are about expat life, and I want to transition there because-
Kacie Rose Burns:
Just dive in, baby.
Tori Dunlap:
Myself, like many other people are like, how do I get out of the United States? How do I stop living here? How do I get somewhere else? And we’ll do it in your intro. But you’ve been living in Italy for how many years now? Are we at three, four?
Kacie Rose Burns:
We’re at three. Three.
Tori Dunlap:
Three? Yeah. Long time.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
So what was that turning point of, yeah, I actually want to be here full time. Obviously, Dario was part of that equation, but what was the difference between, okay, I’m going to either do the long distance or split my time versus no, I’m actually ready to commit?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Honestly, COVID. COVID was the turning point for me. COVID was traumatic for a lot of reasons that are obvious, and I don’t need to go into, but there were also a lot of silver linings. And one of the silver linings for me was the realization when my industry was completely shut down, because performance industry, people facing, no. And when it was completely shut down, and I couldn’t do it anymore, is when I realized that maybe I wasn’t happy doing it as I thought that I was. I was seeing so many videos of friends of mine that were like, “I can’t wait to go back to class, and I miss auditions.” And I was like, “I don’t. I don’t want to go.” I was like, “That’s probably something that I should pay attention to if I’m relieved that I don’t have to go do my job.” And that was a really big wake up call for me.
My second big wake up call when it came to Italy, and traveling. And at that point, Italy was still accepting study visas to go study Italian. And we were at a point where it was I think September of 2020, and I had been without performing, and I was happier. My anxiety attacks stopped to slow down completely. And I was the one that suggested it, I said, “Why don’t we try go living in Italy? We’ll do a six-month trial basis.” LOL, here we are three years later. But that was a really big turning point for me. I realized that I wasn’t happy doing what I was doing. And when I thought about am I willing to be this way, to live like this, to have emotions surrounding what I’m doing in my life until the end of my life? Am I willing to do that? And it was no, it was a no. And going back to what you were saying earlier is life is too short not to do anything that isn’t a yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Well, and I obviously, you know this, and all the listeners know this, is I have a background in theater. That was the plan was I was going to pursue acting, and then I graduated college and just realized I didn’t want the up and down volatility of that. And so I chose marketing instead. And something that I still deal with that I imagine, well, again, you and I have talked privately, but I imagine you feel as well is that especially with theater or performance, it’s such a part of your identity. I was the theater kid growing up. I was the girl who did theater. I was the girl who was in plays all of the time. If I had a high school superlative, it would be like, she was the actor. And it was really difficult for me when even thinking about it now, I haven’t done a show since college. A lot of people in my life now do not know that part of me, have never seen that part of me. And that’s so bizarre.
And I think it can be very, very difficult to one, fall out of love with the thing you’ve been in love with your entire life, but two, to decide maybe this isn’t working, and I’m not going to beat myself up for it, and I’m going to try something else.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah. Yeah. And I had gotten to a point where I hated the industry so much that I started to hate the thing itself.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. The thing you loved. Yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah. It can be so scary to take that jump and be like, this is something that I had committed my life to, and this is what I was, kind of what you were saying. I was the same way. That was my personality. That was my whole personality. And I remember traveling to Italy for the first time was one of the first moments where I realized that there are so many other layers to Kacie that is not just performer Kacie. There’s a travel Kacie. There’s so many other layers in there of human Kacie. And I liked her, a lot, and it wasn’t just performer Kacie, and that was a really big way to call as well. Yeah, I totally get it what you mean.
Tori Dunlap:
So when you decide, okay, I’m going to stay, one of my favorite series that you do is of all of the Italian red tape and all of that stuff of how do you personally navigate all of the information about expat life? What was the most helpful, and then what was the least helpful?
Kacie Rose Burns:
You mean when it comes to Italian bureaucracy, which is my nemesis?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Or just in general. Again, I think of moving to Italy as Under the Tuscan Sun. I think a lot of Eat Pray Love, that’s the default of what moving abroad means. But what was the piece of information that’s like, oh yes, this was accurate, or this was helpful? And what was maybe a common piece of information, you’re like, “No, this was not true, or this was not as easy as you think it’s going to be”?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Oh gosh, yeah, no, you learn a lot by trial and error. And I think the tough part is that so many people romanticize the idea of living abroad, which is not a bad thing. It’s not a bad thing to romanticize your life at all. You should, you should fall in love with your life. You should find joy, and find the beautiful parts of life in living abroad. But it is definitely not easy. It is a really, really hard thing to do. And a lot of it was done for me by trial and error.
You can spend as many hours as you want searching blog posts, and TikToks, and videos, and all of the things. You can spend as many hours as you want researching the negatives, and the pros, and the cons, and the ups, and the downs, but-
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:23:04]
Kacie Rose Burns:
Researching the negatives and the pros and the cons and the ups and the downs. But there are so many things that you will not know until you have experienced them firsthand. I remember the first time that I, it was after two weeks of living in Italy, and it was Dario’s birthday, and I was like, I’m going to go. We had just been in mandatory quarantine, mind you, for two weeks. So two weeks we had been inside the house. I had not stepped a foot outside in Italy. Two weeks is up, Dario’s birthday. I was like, oh my God, I’m going to go and get him a birthday card and some confetti and a cake. And I planned this whole thing out my head. I was like, I’m going to be the best girlfriend ever. And I have a pharmacy across the street from my house, and I went perfect a pharmacy, and I walked my ass to the pharmacy and I walked in.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re thinking this is Walgreens, or Rite Aid or Duane Read.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I’m thinking this is isn’t… On the list of things to Google before moving to Italy, “Does my pharmacy sell birthday cards?” Was not one of the things that I thought to Google. Right?
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Well, yeah, because you live in New York. It’s Duane Read. Duane Reed has everything. Duane Reed has Imodium and it has squirt guns.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yes!
Tori Dunlap:
You’ve got everything at that Duane Read.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Every cosmetics, baby products like pets… You name it, you have… Liquor, you have it there. And again, the list of things where I was like, “What do I need to know about moving to Italy?” What’s inside a pharmacy was not one of them. And so I walked in and I took a lap around the store and I was like, “No, I don’t see it.” So I went up to the pharmacist and I put in my Google Translate because I didn’t speak Italian then. And I showed it to her and it was like, “Where are your birthday cards?” And she looked at me like I had three heads, and that’s when I knew I had fucked up. I was like, “Okay.” And so I went home and I made his birthday card out of notebook paper because I didn’t know where to get a card.
And now I know that there are specific stores in Italy that you go to buy cards at. They’re called Cartoleria. I butcher that because it’s hard for me to pronounce, but they’re called Cartoleria. And you go there and it’s specifically birthday cards. And that’s just one of the examples of just the small things like that. There are so many little things that are things in your life that you wouldn’t think twice about in your normal life about where to go. Where to go when your computer is broken, where to get a birthday card, how to buy groceries at the grocery store, how to go to the post office, things like that, that are second nature in your home state, home country, whatever it is, suddenly become things where you’re very overwhelmed and it’s very confusing and you have no idea what to do.
And living abroad, it’s so beautiful in so many ways. It’s wonderful. It’s a wonderful experience. I think what you get from it, it will benefit you for a lifetime better than any textbook ever will. There’s so many things that you learn from living abroad that will only help you. But you also kind of feel like you’re five years old again, kind of relearning how to do life. You’re in a new culture with new traditions and norms and language and just society, rules and regulations, just social norms.
Tori Dunlap:
It’d be hard enough if you were in a new city and you don’t know where everything is, yet alone everything’s in a different language. So you can’t communicate what you want to communicate. And then with your limited knowledge… This is the same because I have enough French to get by, but when you’re in France, you cannot say big, flowery sentence witty that you would in English. It’s like, “I need bathroom. Where it bathroom? Right? That’s all you got. As opposed to, “I really need you to use your restroom. Would you mind?” Right?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know. So everything is… It’s like there’s 12 steps to get to the first step.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Exactly. Whereas in your home-
Tori Dunlap:
There’s like 12 things you’re thinking about before you even-
Kacie Rose Burns:
Right. Whereas in your home country, it’s just the one step. And I think that’s the thing. There’s so many added layers to it that you don’t really realize until you move abroad. And there’s other layers to it. There’s homesickness and loneliness and the feeling of losing your independence and missing really important life events back home. There’s a lot of things that maybe you don’t take into consideration because it’s not something that you’re thinking about when you’re just excited to move.
But again, on that same breath, yes, there are all those things, but there are so many amazing things about living abroad too, and traveling abroad at large. You will learn things that will benefit you for a lifetime. You will change your mind about things that you would’ve died on a hill for beforehand because you’re suddenly open to all these new cultures and ideas and ways of life and people. And it’s such a beautiful thing, but it’s definitely not under the Tuscan sun. Sometimes it is, but not a lot.
Tori Dunlap:
But not all the time. Well, one of the things I loved about you posting… And I felt this way, the first I went abroad… Studied abroad to Ireland. So not a language gap, but with the accent sometimes.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yes. [inaudible 00:28:07].
Tori Dunlap:
I remember being in Ireland, and I think I’ve told this story in the pod before, but it was just the first month was one of the worst months of my entire life. It was just trying to get classes and in a new… I didn’t have an advisor to go to ask questions. And my parents weren’t there. And I was 20 years old and there was no adult present. I realized it was me and like, “Okay.” It was raining and pouring down rain, and I had to walk two miles to class every day. And it was soaking wet. Okay. My roommates were terrible and were up to 4:00 in the morning, so I wasn’t sleeping. All of these things happened. And then I would have the thought, which is like, “Why are you complaining? You’ve always wanted this.”
And I feel like that is something that I know you’ve experienced and I would love for you to talk a bit about because both things can be true. It’s like this can be really hard and not everything you’ve expected. And you can also be grateful to be here because you’ve wanted this. And I just remember feeling so much guilt because I was like, “Oh my God, I’m in Ireland. I’m in this place. I’ve always wanted to go. I’m in Europe. What the fuck am I doing complaining?” But it was like, no but my feelings and my loneliness and all of that was valid too.
Kacie Rose Burns:
And I think one of the hardest parts and one of the strangest parts and the part that I was not expecting about moving abroad was the guilt of feeling guilty, feeling homesick.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Exactly what you said. Feeling homesick and feeling like just missing everything that I once knew. My culture, my traditions, my norms, food, like my family, my friends, everything. But then the other layer on top of that, which I don’t think anybody really talks about is what you’re saying, the guilt of feeling that way. Because then, your mind starts to go to, “There’s a thousand people that would kill to be in your shoes.”
Tori Dunlap:
People would kill to… I was just going to say that.
Kacie Rose Burns:
“There are so many people that would just die to be where you are, would die to have the experiences that you’re having would give anything to be in your shoes. What right do you have to complain about it?” And that’s thinking it leads you to say, “So I should never cry or complain or yell or scream ever, ever in my life, ever.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Your feelings invalid.
Kacie Rose Burns:
“Because I should be grateful to be here and I should only…” Exactly. It invalidates your feelings. “I should only be grateful to be here.” But that’s not realistic and it’s not healthy. It’s not sustainable at all, at all. Two things can be true. You can simultaneously mourn your old life while also embracing your new one. They can coexist healthily with each other. It’s not a one or the other situation, and it shouldn’t be a one or the other situation. All the emotions, they coexist and they coincide with each other, and that’s how they are able to adapt and grow and change.
I have so many moments where I… I’m three years living here now, and I get a lot of messages where people are like, “When does it get easier? When does the homesickness go away?” And I’m like, “I don’t think it ever will go away.” I don’t think it’s something that will ever fade away and you’ll never see it again because it’s not a physical thing. It’s an emotion that lives within you. It’s something that will always be there. It might get smaller with time. Somebody once described it to me as a box and a ball within a box. And over time the box might become bigger so the ball bounces on the sides less. But that doesn’t mean it’s never ever going to bounce. And so one day I’ll be on top of the world, I’ll be having the best day ever. And then all of a sudden the homesickness the next day just boom hits you out of anywhere like a truck. It just hits you.
And it’s just kind of about learning that that is okay, and you are not alone and it’s normal. Also, the way that I’ve worked to reframe it in my mind is how lucky am I to have two places that I’m so in love with and that I can call both home? How lucky is that to have such a deep fixation for my home and being able to have that feeling toward it, that must mean that it was really special. And that must mean that I must have had a really good time there. And in that way, it’s quite beautiful. You really start to love where you come from and love your home and love the things that maybe you would’ve complained up and down about previously. But it’s not easy at all and it never fully goes away. But I also don’t think that that’s necessarily a bad thing.
Tori Dunlap:
My favorite part, if you’re watching on YouTube, is she’s talking with her hands and it’s like ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring. It makes me really happy.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I’m so sorry. I’m going to take it off. I am so sorry.
Tori Dunlap:
Don’t apologize. It’s the best. Don’t take it off. No! Stop it! I refuse. I will not continue this interview if you take it off.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It’s off.
Tori Dunlap:
No, no! I just love it. I think it’s great. It just makes me really happy every time it pops up.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap:
And again, not to invalidate what you just said. No, I think it’s two things can be true. And it’s also… It’s like really it comes down to comfort. And when you’re not doing well emotionally, you just want comfort. You want consistency. You want things to be what you already know. And everything about travel is nothing that you’ve ever done before or nothing you’ve ever experienced before. And then living abroad is nothing you’ve ever done before.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
And then the more you can’t have it, the more your brain wants it. So the more you don’t get that comfort or that consistency or the… Yeah, I mean it’s very different.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I crave Cheetos.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, Cheetos! Yeah!
Kacie Rose Burns:
I crave Cheetos more than anything in the world.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, for me it was Kraft mac and cheese.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Girl, yeah, I get it.
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 00:33:46] when I was a kid, and that was like all I ate. I was like 20 years old, that’s all I ate.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, my mom sent me… Literally, it cost 75 bucks to ship a box and she sent me Kraft mac and cheese. Yeah. I think for me it was like… Okay, so I packed up… And that’s actually how I met you the first time [inaudible 00:34:01] is I was living in Europe for two months. Went to LA, lived there for a month. Went to New York, lived here for two months.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Oh, right. You were over there.
Tori Dunlap:
And again, a lot of this was not the same because same language, same custom, same culture. But I just remember the feeling of starting over again all the time. For me, it came down… It’s such a hyper specific example, but I bought paprika in four different places. Even that of just like… No, every time I went to a kitchen, I had to start over. I had to build a pantry again. I had to do all of these things. And so even something as simple as that, which is like, “Oh, I’m going to have this my spices in my spice rack, and I know where to get them.” No. And abroad, no, you don’t know where they are.
Kacie Rose Burns:
You’re constantly on the go. And it’s just like you are constantly adapting and changing. And again, humans, we crave stability. That’s normal. It’s normal to kind of feel in limbo and out of balance when you don’t necessarily have that. Or maybe it’s the first couple of months not having something like that when you’re traveling and living abroad. And it can be jarring. Again to what you’re saying is not even travelers are immune to this. It is something that anybody…. no matter how long you were abroad for, is going to feel. Even within your own home country.
You’re from Seattle. I don’t know what’s happening on the West Coast. I’m from the East Coast. I have no idea what y’all are doing over there. You’re a full six hours away from me. I have no idea what life is like over there. So even moving across the country is a whole new experience, a whole new culture that you have to adapt to. And so nobody’s immune to it. We’re all going to have those moments in life where we’re just like, “What the fuck is happening?” And it’s okay. It’s okay. It’s normal. You’re not alone. It’s going to be fine, but, damn does it suck sometimes?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Well, and the videos that I think you are most well known for are your culture shock videos. And I’m burying the lead here a little bit. You fucking got engaged and your book’s coming out in two weeks… A week. She wrote a book everybody. In the book and in the videos you really talk about the culture shocks you noticed of teens being able to legally drive motorcycles at 14 and people being able to drink in public. Are there any culture stocks you’re still getting used to?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Oh God, yeah. Yeah. I think, oh gosh. I mean, even just the way that bureaucracy runs, that’s still a very big confusing thing for me. And that’s a more serious topic, but that’s still really confusing to me.
Tori Dunlap:
That affects you all the time. Yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Health care is really confusing. Healthcare is really confusing to me. Even for example… And it might be… People might have some sort of feelings about it, but for example, a couple of days ago I wasn’t feeling good, had a cough. And Dario was like, “Go to the doctor.” And I was like, “No, I’m not going to the doctor.” I was like, “It’s a cough. I’ll get some cough medicine at the pharmacy. I’m good. No.” And a couple days went by, cough was still there, and he was like, “Go to the doctor.” And I was like, “No.” Because at that point I was like, “I’m feeling okay. I just need some cough medicine. It’s not something that I need a doctor for. I can just push through it. I’m okay.”
And eventually a couple of days move forward and I was like, “Okay, maybe now I should go to the doctor.” And he was like, “Why don’t you just go to the doctor in the first place?” And that was one of the things that it’s still something that is just not ingrained into my system to do because of the way American healthcare is run. And so that’s a really big kind of more serious culture shock that I still deal with.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Well, that’s one that is just…
Kacie Rose Burns:
There’s so many girl. Shooting the grappa. I still shoot the grappa.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re supposed to sip, right?
Kacie Rose Burns:
I never learned. [inaudible 00:37:59].
Tori Dunlap:
Well, I mean, yeah, that’s a whole other episode about how much you travel and you realize America’s so fucked. That’s a whole episode of… I remember going to New Zealand two years ago and New Zealand sense of community and sense of preservation of land, I had never experienced anything like it. And it was so different to American individualism and then-
Kacie Rose Burns:
You want to go.
Tori Dunlap:
… healthcare and all of these things, universal childcare and better wages and less houselessness. There’s so many things that you start realizing. Yes, lucky to be an American. There’s so much about this country that I’m proud of and there’s a lot of this country that I’m really ashamed of or that… Just you open your eyes when you travel.
Kacie Rose Burns:
And that’s one of the things too, because I think yes, you open your eyes to be like, “Oh, maybe this isn’t so great that we do this in my home country.” But on the other side, there are some things where you’re like, “Wow, I love that about my home country.” I was the first one, when I lived in the US, to be so critical of the US. First one. And living abroad now, I feel like I’m able to appreciate the really great parts about the US even more. I’m able to see them even more because there are so many beautiful things about the US. There’s a lot of not so great stuff too about the US. It got its issues. In the same way that Italy is beautiful, but also has its issues, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Kacie Rose Burns:
There is no perfect utopia, but I think living abroad has taught me of… Specifically Italy because that’s what I write a lot about in my book is aspects of the Italian culture that I feel are so beautiful and are lessons that I think everybody can take and apply them to their own life. Kind of what you were saying about New Zealand, the community aspect, that’s massive in Italy family is at the forefront in Italian culture. The idea of La Dolce Vita is, we all know La Dolce Vita, but what does La Dolce Vita actually mean? And a lot of it is just this idea of incorporating rest and not seeing it as the bad guy.
They see rest as a crucial part of a person’s overall wellbeing. That’s just part of the culture. And coming from the American mindset… I know you get this as a fellow… As a business owner too, coming from the American mindset where we are kind of taught that work is rewarded and rest is demonized. We’re a work-centric culture. And Italy and Italian culture puts overall well-being, which includes rest at the forefront. And you see this in so many different ways. La Pausa in the middle of the day, which is shutting the stores down for three hours in the middle of the day and taking time to go rest with your family, the community culture again.
Tori Dunlap:
Or meals that take six hours.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Meals that take six hours. But yeah, it’s just taking your time to enjoy rather than to rush through because life is meant to be enjoyed and not rushed through, which is something that Italians have mastered. And I get so many comments and messages, a lot of people saying that Italians are lazy. Kind of putting that stereotype that Italians are lazy and they’re not lazy. They’ve just understood what the rest of us are trying to achieve, which is the formula for balance. And it’s just they have this view on life overall generally as culture. That just puts that idea at the forefront and it’s beautiful, especially coming from the complete opposite. And it was something kind of going back to your original question on culture and culture shocks and things that were difficult for me to adapt to. I talk about it a lot in my book.
The culture shocks that I adapted to very easily and the culture shocks that were really, really difficult for me to adapt to. That was one of the things that was really difficult for me to adapt to because I come from New York, I come from the hustle culture. I come from go, go, go work, work, work, work. And entering this culture of let’s sit and have our coffee. Let’s sit and let’s get a gelato at 10:00 A.M. and let’s take a week off from work because we deserve it. Let’s take four weeks off from work because we deserve it. It’s just that idea, and it was difficult for me to adapt to at first. And I’m so glad that I did. There’s a lot of beautiful lessons there
Tori Dunlap:
In expat life, one of the things that we have to talk about… As comfortable or as open as you’re willing to be, what are the financial side… What’s the finance side of that? Because I mean, in terms of getting a visa, how much does it cost? Now being engaged, I imagine… I mean, if you get married, you have a little more flexibility. So talk to me about what is the financial hoops that you’re thinking about needing to jump through as well as a really quick overview of the logistics?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing that I can tell anybody planning to move abroad or live abroad for an extended period of time is start a savings account like ASAP. Start putting money in a separate savings account, not even your savings account. Start a separate savings account and start putting money into it. That’s what I did, and I was in a situation during COVID where… During COVID, for example, I started delivering food for the city of New York. They had this program that was delivering food to people who had low immune systems and couldn’t leave the house for food or low-income individuals who didn’t have money for food. It was a lot of different people that we were delivering food to. And that’s what I did as a job, and I loved it, actually. That’s what I started doing, and I did that six days a week because at that point I had an inkling that we were going to move to Italy, and I was like, “I need to finance myself somehow.”
I was also a performer in New York, so I was completely broke. I had no money, and I previously had worked pretty much every single job under the sun that you could imagine in New York, any job that you can think of. I did that job. I almost did a pill study for $3,000 because all I had to do was ingest an unmarked pill for a week and then report back how I felt. And I almost did it because $3,000, that’s a lot of money. I was like, “Maybe I do it.” That’s rent for two months, three months, honestly. I didn’t do it, but I almost did.
No, and when we decided to move to Italy, the study visa process, shockingly for me was quite easy. I’m not sure if it’s because it was COVID and it was kind of a strange time to be asking for visas and things like that. Mine went relatively quickly. I also went through the Detroit Consulate office, which was a lot easier than what I’ve heard the New York City Consulate because I’m from Detroit originally. But I think my total visa package, I think it cost… To actually send in the materials, it costs $200 to send in the materials. However, when in the package you had to spend… You had to pay for the school. So again, I was going on a study visa. I was studying Italian at a local language academy and I had to pay for schooling.
So I think six months of schooling I think was… Oh gosh, I think it was just around $1,900, $2,000 maybe for six months of schooling. Not cheap. And so I saved. With that as well. You had to have, I believe, $8,000 in your savings account. You had to show $8,000 in your checking account along with your Visa application. I did not have $8,000. I asked every single family member… My God, am I going to get kicked out of Italy? I asked every single family member if they could deposit…
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:46:04]
Kacie Rose Burns:
… a family member to, if they could deposit X amount of dollars into my account for a couple of weeks so that I could show it and I would give it back because I was like, I can support myself when I’m there. I can support myself. And that’s how I found ways to have the money in my account in that way, let’s say.
And then, gosh, what else did I need? Oh, you had to have a flight. You had to have your flight booked, so you had to buy the flight. So all in all, to submit to the Visa, it was a couple of thousand, a couple of thousand, not including what you had to show in your bank account. And it was not cheap. And then when I got there, I was still teaching English online. That was my job at the time was I taught English online.
It was my one surviving job, pre-pandemic. It was through a company called VIP Kit. I don’t think that they’re really in service anymore because China’s laws changed, but basically it was teaching English to kids online every morning. And that’s what I did upon moving to Italy for the first six months. I was in a very strange situation in the fact that when I started posting on social media, it took off.
And so I made the transition out of teaching English about six months after moving to Italy. That doesn’t mean I was making money as an influencer at that point. I just had the savings and I had worked my ass off to have money to live on until I could get either another job where I could support myself financially, somehow else.
And that came about a year after moving to Italy because that’s when I opened up my business. So all in all, I’m really glad that I had kicked my ass to make a savings account because for the first year I lived in Italy, I was not making that much money. I was not making money.
Tori Dunlap:
I am asking a selfish question. I can also talk to you offline about it, but I imagine there’s a lot of people who, yeah, do you want to move abroad? Do you want to move to Italy. For me, as a business owner, are you paying double taxes? Are you paying taxes in Italy? And are you paying taxes in the United States?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, fun.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I’m just figuring all this out myself. I got an accountant here. Oh my gosh, it is a headache because there’s so many different steps. And I am not a tax expert and I am not an accountant and I don’t know international tax law. For some reason, they didn’t teach me that when I was getting my BFA in dance. So I really don’t know.
It’s not my field. And so I hired people, I was like, I need an accountant. I needed a lawyer, which is another added expense. When you move abroad, you need to get a lawyer, you have to get a lawyer, you have to get an accountant, and you need to budget for that. It’s a non-negotiable. You have to have a lawyer because if anything, especially when you’re dealing with Italian bureaucracy, like my God, you need to make sure that you have somebody that can walk through it with you, has your back.
It’s a headache in half. And so the United States is one of, I think three countries in the world that tax is based on citizenship and not residency. And so even though I live in Italy and I have no plans ever of moving back to the US, that could change. I don’t know, but I don’t have any plans right now moving back to the US, I still have to pay taxes because I am a citizenship holder.
The only way to never pay taxes to the US again is for me to renounce my citizenship. I’m obviously not going to do that. Also, if you wanted to do that, it costs $2000 and you have to go through an intensive process to do that. But it’s funny because that’s another reason why Dario, how many comments I get where people are like, Dario just is with you for a green card. And I’m like, he literally doesn’t want his green card because that means he has to pay taxes to the US. He doesn’t want it.
Yeah. So Italy and the US have something called, they have a tax treaty agreement between them. So basically if you don’t pay or if you make under, don’t quote me on this is because from what I understand it, I think it just recently changed, but if you make under 110 grand, I think is what it is, 110 grand, you aren’t double taxed. That’s like the tax treaty.
So you, God, it’s like you pay the taxes in Italy and then that tax credit, if you will, it gets put as a tax credit to your taxes in the US and that’s how they avoid the double taxation to a certain extent. So yeah, that’s the way to work around it. But my business is based in the US.
I have a separate business in Italy. That’s just my self-employment business. It’s called Apetita Eva. And my accountants in the US and my accountants in Italy, they talk to each other and they make sure that everything is legal and fine and dandy. So yeah, it’s a headache.
Tori Dunlap:
I have another tab open right now, and it’s quote, “Can I live abroad as a business owner and not pay double taxes?”
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah. No, you can’t.
Tori Dunlap:
We’re going to figure that out.
Kacie Rose Burns:
No, it depends.
Tori Dunlap:
No, you cannot.
Kacie Rose Burns:
There’s ways. There’s ways to, we can talk about it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I would love that. I want to talk about something a little more serious and then we can talk about fun Italian stuff. And Kristin, our podcast producer joked with us before we hopped on that, that was going to be the fun part for me. I love talking about Italy with you, but before we get there, you talk in the book about how being a professional dancer was both a good and a bad thing when it came to sharing your story online and kind of being a public person and a content creator.
Very similar for me of, I’m very used to rejection. I’m very used to how people having opinions about me, but it’s both being used to the constant criticism but you also talk about something that I think is really common with anyone in any sort of performing or front facing profession, which is rejecting the people pleasing mentality. So maybe talk to me about how is it just different being in the spotlight in the online space and maybe how being a dancer kind of prepped you for that? The Internet’s mean.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s my contribution here.
Kacie Rose Burns:
No, no, no. And it’s a lovely contribution because that’s the easiest way to put it is that the internet is mean. I wrote this in the book, which you know, but there is no guidebook for what to do when you go to having millions of eyes on you. It’s a guidebook on how to handle that.
It’s something that you learn as you go, and it is a really tough thing to learn as you go. And it’s not something that, I don’t think anybody ever masters it completely. I don’t think that anybody ever really fully gets over mean comments. I don’t think that the human brain was meant to handle the amount of negativity that we see online. I don’t think that we were ever meant to know. And it’s a skill.
Tori Dunlap:
And everybody has an opinion about who you are and what you should be doing even though they’ve never participated. And I mean that with all of the empathy and the love in the world, but the criticism I get, no one’s criticizing me who’s doing more than me. All the criticism I might get, or everybody online has a million different opinions about how I should run my business and they’ve never been a business owner.
Kacie Rose Burns:
And it’s fucking impossible. It’s impossible.
Tori Dunlap:
A million different opinions about how I should show up. And they’ve never posted a video. And again, I say it was so much empathy and understanding of someone’s frustrated, someone’s taking it out on you, but at the same time, you don’t know everything we have to navigate in order to make certain decisions we’re making.
Kacie Rose Burns:
No, I totally agree. And it’s just there’s a million differing opinions on what it takes to be the perfect human being. And there is no such thing as a perfect human being. And everybody has differing opinions, right? Maybe for example, oh my gosh, just to give you a little example that just recently very happened as of yesterday, recently very happened, was I posted a video of my cat and somebody was like, “I love seeing your cats. Please post your cats more.
I like the Italy stuff, but I love seeing your cats.” And I was like, cute. And then this other woman messaged me and she was like, “Stop it with the,” I want to screenshot it and send it to you. She was like, “Stop it with the fucking cat content.” I’m quoting her. “Stop it with the cat content. I don’t want to see it. I want to see Italy.”
Tori Dunlap:
I had a follower and I posted it in our Slack channel, in our team Slack channel. Literally, let’s call it 10:30 PM and we posted about Roth IRAs and how you have to put the money in, and then also you have to invest. And that’s a misconception people make a lot, is they put the money in and they think they’re done.
And she’s like, “Oh my God, this saved my financial life when I read it. I’m so grateful to you.” Not 12 hours later, I posted something about genocide, whatever’s going on right now. And she was like, “Ugh, you got political.” Unfollow. And I was just like, it was actually the very great … and to your cat, no cat example, you just realize that even the same people who are like, oh my God, I love you, I love you, I love you, you can do one thing and they’re like, I hate you. I’ve hated this girl. I’ve always hated this girl. So you just get to a point where you’re like, okay, I literally cannot please everybody, nor should I try.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
And my boundaries are solid, and I’m going to feel good about my decisions, and I’m going to do what I’m going to do. And if you hate me, cool, there’s the exit. And also, I don’t need to hear you exiting. You can just exit. So I just-
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah, no, you hit the nail on the head. I totally get it. I totally empathize what you’re feeling because I felt it. I think everybody’s felt it right? Especially I’m the world’s biggest people pleaser growing up. It’s just part of, I want to make sure people are happy.
Tori Dunlap:
You want everybody to like you.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I want people to be happy, and I want people to be okay. And realizing that that is not a possibility. That you cannot please everybody. You cannot make everybody happy no matter what you do. And no matter what you do, somebody will have a problem with it. Somebody will disagree, somebody will hate you for it.
It is something that was a very painful lesson to learn, a very painful realization to have, especially coming from somebody who just wants to make everybody happy. And I think more than that, just as humans, we want people to like us. We want to be included. We want to be a part of the pack. And realizing that that is not a possibility. It is not possible to have everybody like you.
It was a very painful lesson to learn, a very good lesson to learn, but it wasn’t something that was easy to learn. And being online creates that tenfold. And it’s hard because social media on one hand, it’s such a beautiful thing. I attribute everything to social media. And similar to you, my audience, I am more stupidly grateful for my audience than they will ever know.
They have gotten you through some really, really tough times, some really, really hard shit. And posting and interacting with people online has saved me. It’s like the same world that was causing me to go insane was also saving me from total disintegration. It really was that way.
Tori Dunlap:
Isn’t that funny?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah, right. Isn’t that funny? But it is not easy. It’s a cruel, cruel world. It’s cruel.
Tori Dunlap:
And to echo what we were talking about at the beginning, and not to harp on it too much, but just because kind of thread of my work and yours in a way with travels, it’s like when a woman is standing in the fullest version of herself and she feels confident and she feels capable, and she feels unabashedly herself, what it does is, it’s is a mirror to everybody who doesn’t feel that way.
And you have one of two options in that moment. You either have the option to rise to the occasion and be like, huh, this person brings out something in me that’s really curious and really interesting, and I’m going to follow that thread and figure out why does this person make me feel like maybe I want to step up? The other version of that is, I don’t like this person because this person makes me feel badly about myself.
And I’m like, we’re not making you feel badly about yourself. We’re a mirror of showing you what’s possible when you do like yourself and when you do trust yourself and when you are the fullest version of yourself. And I think for most people, they’re not maybe at the time or place to be able to handle that.
And so I think that’s for me, what happens over and over and over again is we see women show up sometimes for the first time you’ve ever seen a woman be the baddest, best version of herself on an online platform, and it feels like a threat. It feels threatening, it feels accusatory, but it’s none of those things.
Kacie Rose Burns:
No, totally. And I had gotten to a point where I was dealing with a specific kind of hate online. I was dealing with a lot of xenophobia online, which I talk all about in the book, in the chapter that you’re referring to. It was a very, really tough, tough experience to go through.
And it escalated to a point where it was bringing me down, down, down, and down and it escalated to a point where I eventually had somebody say something to my face, which was my first experience of having a hate comment of sort be said to my face. Because it’s so easy when you read it online, it’s so easy to be like, ooh, okay, let me put my armor on.
And I was expecting this when I came in to check my social media today, but I can just block and I can delete and I can move on with my life. And it had gotten to a point where I wasn’t even checking my messages anymore because I was just scared to open them, honestly.
And you get those comments so frequently, but there’re always, no matter how much armor you put on to deal with it, there’s always one that’s worded just correctly to kind of pierce your armor a little bit. And it escalated to that point where somebody had said something to my face in person, which was my first experience with that, and it was one of the most painful things I’ve ever experienced.
And I woke up the next day and I detailed that whole experience in my book. I detailed what this process was like because it is not easy. And I woke up the next day and I realized that similar to what you were saying of people have two paths, I had two paths. It was either I could stop right then and I could take myself offline and I could stop or I could continue going.
And I chose to continue going for a variety of reasons. One being the fact that even if I took myself off offline, off of line? If I took myself offline, there would always be somebody in my life that would hate me, that would like something that I did, that would disagree with me, that wasn’t going to change, not being offline, right? It’s a shared experience that humans have in the world.
Continuing though gave me so many more benefits. It allowed me to connect with people. It made me a better version of myself. And that’s why I made the decision to continue. And I kind of came to this realization through, again, a lot of pain. And I’m so happy now to look back and see that that brought me to this realization that if somebody is going to take time out of their day to say something negative about you or to direct negativity toward you in any way, shape or form out of nowhere, purely because of whatever reason, it is 1000% because there is something happening in their life that makes them feel the need to do that.
1000%. It’s not you. And so the best thing that you can do is wish them well, send them on their way, wish them the love they’re so desperately seeking and move on because they don’t deserve to have any more of your energy depleted. You don’t deserve to have any more of your time and your light and your energy taken from them.
It’s something whether you’re online, whether you’re not, whether you live in a small town, whether you live in a big town, whether you have a big job or a small job, it’s something that we will all experience at some point, somebody hating us, somebody not liking us, somebody shooting negativity at us, somebody trying to put us down for whatever reason, and turning a mirror.
It’s because what you were saying, even the fact that what you do turns a mirror on themselves and makes them see something that they don’t like, it’s something that we will all experience in our lifetimes, unfortunately. And I think kind of coming to the realization that it’s not you is so important.
And that’s not to say that we don’t experience times in our life where we need to step up or we need to change, or we need to change our behavior because maybe some of that negativity has underlying values of truth. That’s not necessarily the case. Constructive criticism exists, of course, but for somebody to project negativity at you unwarranted, that’s when it’s crossed the line and when it’s just not you, it’s them.
And there’s nothing more that you can do other than to wish them well and move on with your day because you don’t deserve to have any more of your energy depleted from that interaction. Oh my God. I’ll get off my soapbox now. I could talk about it forever.
Tori Dunlap:
No, no, you’re not. No, I asked you the question. No, and it’s something to round us out a little bit, it is something that I keep bringing up on the show because what you said earlier and what I, again, I’ve also said the human brain was not meant to get this much feedback and this many opinions all the time.
And the metaphor I use is like, okay, if I’m walking down the street and 100 people have something to say about me, even if 95 of them say nice things, that is deeply overwhelming. Now put that on a most grand massive scale. We have five million followers. You’re up to what, a million, two million? It’s a lot of people. It’s a lot of people and then for both you and I, it’s 95% great, but one, that’s overwhelming in and of itself, lovely, but overwhelming.
And two, the 5% feels so much louder. The 5% feels so much louder. And so I have continued to talk about and want to talk about more just I think social media will eventually be what we consider smoking to be of like we will eventually get to a point where we realize this is not good for our brains, this is not good for our bodies, this is not good for our stress.
And it can’t come soon enough, honestly, for me, of this reckoning of like, okay, cancel culture doesn’t work. Piling on doesn’t work. All of these opinions all the time, and just throwing tomatoes doesn’t work. So we’ve got to figure out a way forward because to your point as well, social media and for us, social media has been the greatest place and community building, and it’s allowed me to build a business and give people jobs and do all these things. And it also feels like it’s killing me. It feels like it’s killing me and killing other people online.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It’s a double-edged sword for sure. For sure. And I think especially surrounding businesses and stuff, I think about often how many people, but women in particular, I think about often that have tried to start a business of some sort, have tried to start a business online, have tried to start a business offline, have tried to create content.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m laughing because I posted about this three days ago.
Kacie Rose Burns:
You know exactly where I’m going with this, aren’t you? Yeah. I think about it all the time. How many women wanted to do something and it, God, it makes me so happy about it, truly talk about the crying, it makes me so sad because it’s literally how many people, how many women wanted to do something so badly and wanted to put themselves out there, and they did.
They put themselves out there and they tried to do the thing, something that they’re really passionate about, something that they really, really wanted, and then got discouraged by the inevitable hate comments that come from it. Because I know, I’ve seen it. You’ve seen it. It’s horrible. Some of the things that when people ask me, well, what do you mean bad?
They don’t think it’s bad. And when I share with them some comments that I’ve gotten just out of the blue, messages, not anything that I’ve done emails, I get-
Tori Dunlap:
Emails.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Emails, yes, of just the most … the craziest things, the craziest, craziest things. I think about that and how they must have gotten it, and how many women have given up, stopped because they were just like, I can’t handle this, and that sucks. That sucks.
And I was thinking specifically on even further than that, the other day, I made a video that I posted online, 15 second video, live reacting to a song on one of Taylor Swift’s new albums, one of, because she has … one of her albums live reacting to a song.
Tori Dunlap:
I remember this.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I love Taylor Swift. I love her music. And it’s not anything that anybody should be ashamed about. If you like your music, if you don’t, whatever, who gives? I don’t give a shit if you don’t like her music, great. It’s not for everybody. Totally, it’s fine.
I made a 15-second video, and the angry men and women of the internet found it. And within a couple of hours, Tori, I had 3000 comments. Just the most, the craziest, like the craziest comments. Oh my gosh, Tori, some people were telling me to go die because I made a video saying, I liked Taylor Swift’s new song.
What? And that video, it’s crazy. And I remember very luckily at this point, I have a very thick skin, and a lot of that comes from, I never answered your earlier question, but a lot of it does come from being a performer where I’m up on a stage being judged constantly. That’s part of what I signed out for being a dancer and being in social media, luckily that helped me to a certain extent. But at the same time, 200 eyes is not two million, and it’s just a very different experience.
Nothing can prepare you for that. But I remember thinking, I am so grateful I have a tough skin for this because I’m finding a lot of these comments and I’m not hurt by them. They don’t bother me at all because I’m just like, whoa, that’s crazy to say that.
Tori Dunlap:
Right, it’s almost comical.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It’s comical.
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:09:04]
Kacie Rose Burns:
Whoa. That’s crazy to say that.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. It’s almost comical.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It’s comical. It was comical. But the thing that made me sad about it was thinking about what about the young woman that, what about the young girl that just loves Taylor Swift and maybe she listened to the song and she went to school the next day and she was like, “I loved it.” And then somebody says something to her and has to knock her down because she says that she likes a certain thing. Going back to our earlier conversation of seeing a woman standing in her power, seeing a woman that is just enjoying something, and having to knock it down. For what? Why? What’s the point?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. The exact same thing, I literally posted about it a couple of days ago, because I’m on fatphobic internet.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Sorry.
Tori Dunlap:
My posts have made their way over to…
Kacie Rose Burns:
God.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s okay. I’m sorry for you. It’s bound to happen. And literally, probably out of 10 comments, eight are men telling me that I’m fat and unlovable and that I spend all my money at McDonald’s and that I should go die, you cunt. So that’s all of them. So I had the same thought. I wasn’t sad for me. I mean, I was pissed. I was like, this is just ridiculous.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Ridiculous.
Tori Dunlap:
But I was sad thinking about every single woman who felt like, “Oh, I can’t keep going” because people are so mean. And I don’t blame those women. I don’t blame them at all.
Kacie Rose Burns:
No. At all.
Tori Dunlap:
There’s many times that I’m like, “You know what? Quitting would be easier. Quitting would be actually better for my mental health.”
Kacie Rose Burns:
That’s literally… And that’s the moment that I came to. I remember the night so specifically, because that thing happened, that experience happened, which again, I talk about in my book because, my God, it was like a therapy session writing that chapter, I think. But I came to that moment where I was like, “Okay, I have two paths here. Neither of them are bad. Neither of them are bad choices. If I go this route where I quit, my mental health is saved in a lot of ways. Is it going to help me in the long run, because I know this exists everywhere? No, but it’s a valid choice. Or I could go this route, which is also a valid choice, but it’s not going to be easy. It’s going to be really fucking hard.”
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and let’s talk about if you quit. You have to stop your business. That’s the thing I think about if like, okay, if I did want to take a break, I have a team now. So it’s like, okay, if I just want to stop posting, we don’t make money. My decision now impacts 15 other people’s livelihoods.
Kacie Rose Burns:
And that’s the really hard part.
Tori Dunlap:
And again, we’ll wrap this up-
Kacie Rose Burns:
Same. Same with my team.
Tori Dunlap:
… because for most people listening, they’re like, “Okay, I’m an influencer. I get it.”
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah, sorry.
Tori Dunlap:
No, but there is just this certain level of just like I want anybody listening who’s out online to just, like, we’re real people. We’re trying our best. Just try to be kind and understand that we’re making the best decisions we can with what we have.
Kacie Rose Burns:
World events is a really good, yeah, no, and I think I would expand it to just anybody.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Kacie Rose Burns:
The reason why I wrote this chapter the way that I wrote it is because, again, this is a shared human experience. We are all going to have this moment where somebody says something nasty, where somebody says something unwarranted, where somebody hates you for no reason, where somebody just feels the need to take you down because they need to feel better about themselves. It is a shared human experience, whether you are an influencer, whether you’re not an influencer, whether you’re a business owner or you’re not business owner, whether you’re Sandy Jo from Minnesota or you’re, I don’t know, Joanne living in New York City.
It is a shared experience, and I think it’s important that we talk about it, and I think it’s important that we go into depth about it. And it’s part of the reason why I wrote that chapter, because it is something we will all experience, and there is a way to work through it, and there is a lesson to be learned from it, and there is a positive that happens at the end of it, but it doesn’t mean it’s easy. But there is something to be gained from it, and I think it’s important that we shed light on it in whatever way that is.
Tori Dunlap:
And I don’t want you not giving what you have to offer and bettering, and I’m not talking about you, Kacie, but the general you. I don’t want you dimming your light and dimming what you have to offer and dimming the fullest version of yourself to please a random stranger on the internet that you’ve never met, who doesn’t actually give a about you. Okay. We have to talk about things that aren’t this.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, go.
Tori Dunlap:
Because I want to talk about gelato.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Because I could do a full episode on this.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, so your book is You Deserve Good Gelato. I have to talk to you. How do we determine good gelato? Because I have my own system, and I think a lot of our systems are the same. So I’m going to start us off. The pistachio flavor should be what color, Kacie?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yes. It should be a light brownish green, not vibrant green. It should be a light brownish green because that is the color that real pistachios are when they’re ground up, light brown, green. Pale.
Tori Dunlap:
If it’s piled really high and looks really pretty and entices you into the store, is that good gelato?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Step, turn, pivot, walk away, girly. No. No.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s not good gelato.
Kacie Rose Burns:
No, because it’s so interesting to me because the tubs down at the bottom, the tubs down at the bottom are the things, that’s what’s cold. That’s what keeps things cold. So if it’s piled high, that means that the ice cream is able to stay out of the freezer without melting, which like…
Tori Dunlap:
Suspicious.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Suspicious.
Tori Dunlap:
Is it good gelato if it’s in metal tins and you can’t even see it?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yes, that is great gelato. It doesn’t mean that open gelato is bad, but again, it just means you have to vet the open gelato a little bit more. But the closed containers, [Italian 01:14:52] sorry, because when you can’t see it, I’m sorry. When you can’t see it-
Tori Dunlap:
No, that was so cute. Makes me really happy because the last time I saw you-
Kacie Rose Burns:
Was annoying is what is was. It was annoying.
Tori Dunlap:
… you were struggling with Italian. No, no, no. 2021 when I met you for the first time, you were trying to order and you were so you were beating yourself up, but I love it. [Italian 01:15:10] Great. Keep going, babe. We can do this whole episode in Italian.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I’m red.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know you’re saying, but I can do it. No, don’t be embarrassed. I thought that was so genuine and lovely. That was adorable. No, I love it.
Kacie Rose Burns:
You know what’s so funny is that the other day, or not the other day, my God, when I was writing my book, when I was writing the book, I kept trying to write, I wanted to write nonalcoholic, and I kept writing an alcoholic because in Italian, it’s [Italian 01:15:37].
Tori Dunlap:
Look at you, bilingual queen.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I kept writing, well, iffy.
Tori Dunlap:
We’re getting there.
Kacie Rose Burns:
But I kept trying to write nonalcoholic, but I kept writing an alcoholic and it kept giving me the red squiggly line. I got so frustrated, Tori. I took a lap. I was like, “I am writing this correctly.” And then I realized that, oh, I was not. I was not.
Tori Dunlap:
No.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Anyway, the gelato, what was you saying about the gelato?
Tori Dunlap:
Metal tins. You can’t see it.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Oh, yeah. Metal tins. No, it’s really good because it means that they don’t need the display because they know their gelato is good. Again, doesn’t mean that open containers are bad. It just means that you don’t want the mountains, the ski mountains.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Anyway, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. Rapid fire for you.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Tell me.
Tori Dunlap:
Favorite city in Italy.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Oh, that’s so mean.
Tori Dunlap:
I know. Pick a child.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I’m biased.
Tori Dunlap:
Pick a child. Sophie’s choice. Let’s go.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It kind of is. I’m biased. My favorite city is Florence. I live here. This is my favorite city.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Love it.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Also, the Florentines would kill me if I said no.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, they truly would. They would be really mad.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I’d be kicked out of Italy.
Tori Dunlap:
Favorite day trip, maybe, out of Florence.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Ooh. There is a town, a very small town up north, just slightly up north. It’s called Mantaba. It’s a small, small city. It’s one of my favorite small cities in Italy. It’s right on the river. It borders between Emilia-Romagna and Lombardy. There is nothing in this town. There is nothing there. It is just cute and they have really good pumpkin ravioli because they’re known for pumpkin ravioli, and I just love it. It’s just a really cute little town. Yeah, I just love it.
Tori Dunlap:
Favorite gelato flavor or maybe best gelato flavor?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Pistachio. Pistachio.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I feel like that’s classic.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Hands down. Pistachio. And also, but more specifically like pistachio crema. Crema de pistachio is what it’s called. They usually have the cream of pistachio on top of the gelato. Oh, it is so good. And then also nocciola, which is, what am I trying to say? Hazelnut.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Hazelnut. That’s also really good.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m a pistachio limone combo girl.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Are you? Okay. Great.
Tori Dunlap:
I always love to do a sorbet with a gelato. I know. I’m doing my own thing.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I like it. What’s your method there? Why?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, typically I’ve been to Italy and it’s been warm, and I want something that’s creamier and that feels thicker, but I also want something that’s refreshing.
Kacie Rose Burns:
When you come here. Solid side note. So sorry. When you come here, because you’re coming here so soon. I’m so excited.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m very excited.
Kacie Rose Burns:
When you come here at this gelateria area in Florence, it’s called La Sorbettiera. It’s one of my favorites, but they’re known for this lemon and sage sorbet gelato. It is so good, girl. It’s so good. It’s the perfect summer, refreshing, it’s so good. It’s so good.
Tori Dunlap:
And I also love strawberry. I’ve told this story before. When I met you in Italy, I was ordering for the entire month I was there. I’m even going to butcher it. I was pronouncing it the wrong way. Pronounce it the right way for me.
Kacie Rose Burns:
What is it?
Tori Dunlap:
Strawberry.
Kacie Rose Burns:
[Italian 01:18:45] .
Tori Dunlap:
Is it [Italian 01:18:45]
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Where do you put the emphasis?
Kacie Rose Burns:
Well, I’m not Italian. [Italian 01:18:49]
Tori Dunlap:
No, no, no, but [Italian 01:18:52]. So I was doing [Italian 01:18:53]. I was doing [Italian 01:18:54] for the whole month, whole month, feeling so confident. I’m like, [Italian 01:19:00] I was just like, and then literally the last day we’re driving back to France to leave out of Paris.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Oh no.
Tori Dunlap:
We stopped for one last gelato on the border, and she finally corrects me. This is the true testament to how kind the Italians are, that it took 30 days for them to actually be like, “Bitch, that’s not how you do it.”
Kacie Rose Burns:
They’re so sweet.
Tori Dunlap:
So nice.
Kacie Rose Burns:
They’re like, “She’s trying.”
Tori Dunlap:
But it was like [Italian 01:19:25], and I was like, oh, I felt so stupid. But now I, well, clearly I forgot, but I’m like, oh, where does the emphasis go? So it’s so funny. I was doing it. I felt so confident. It felt so good.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It’s okay. I have made so many language- I told Dario’s mom that I was horny instead of excited one time. You can bounce back from [Italian 01:19:45] if you, you can. You can bounce back. I bounced back.
Tori Dunlap:
Your future mother-in-law.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Your mother-in-law.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Jesus Christ.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, look at that.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Anyway.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m going to be really, really mean. Best Italian dish.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Where am I at in Italy? That depends. That’s a great question though.
Tori Dunlap:
I’ll set you up. Let’s go Cinque Terre.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Ooh, pesto.
Tori Dunlap:
Because there’s a right answer at Cinque Terre. Yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Pesto.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Pesto everything. I mean, okay, if I had to pick one dish. Okay, let me give you three, okay? Because I can’t pick one because also I’ll, you know.
Tori Dunlap:
Great. That’s great.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Let me give you top three. Pastas top three. Carbonara. I love a good freaking carbonara, dude. In Florence there is wild boar pasta. [Italian 01:20:28]. That’s top three. I’m not going to put pesto pasta because pesto, a lot of the times is actually used as a spread or like a sauce instead of a pasta sauce. It’s used on top of bread or with prosciutto or something like that. So I’m going to leave that off.
Down in the Amalfi Coast, there is another type of pasta that is from a town called Nerano. It’s pasta [Italian 01:20:52] I think. I can’t pronounce it correctly. I don’t live down there, but Nerano pasta. It’s like zucchini. It’s so good, dude. If you’re going down there, you have to get it.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s where the wedding is. That’s where I’m starting.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Okay.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m starting in Amalfi and then we’re going up.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I’m pretty sure it’s pasta al Nerano. Get that, get that.
Tori Dunlap:
Great.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It’s good.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I’m hungry.
Tori Dunlap:
Best I’m a first timer and I’m visiting Italy city. What’s the best place to go if you’ve never been to Italy? I mean, I feel like Florence is a great one.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Florence is a great one. I think if you’re nervous about it, any big city. So Venice, Florence, Rome is always-
Tori Dunlap:
Naples.
Kacie Rose Burns:
… I call it the holy Grail itinerary because… Naples, yeah. Naples can be tough for first time travelers because it’s a specific, I love Naples. It’s beautiful. I love Naples. But if you’re a first time traveler or some solo traveler, it’s a big city. It’s a rough city. It’s gritty and grungy, and it’s beautifully chaotic. There’s so much beauty in Naples. The people there are amazing. The food is amazing.
But I think for first time, especially first time solo traveler women, I usually say let’s do a Venice Florence Rome. It’s a holy grail. It makes you feel comfortable. It’s international, so people will always speak English there, and then the next time you come, you’ve already been here and you can hit up the smaller cities if you want. Bologna too. Bologna is a really great city.
Tori Dunlap:
Especially if you’re a foodie.
Kacie Rose Burns:
For solo travelers too.
Tori Dunlap:
Bologna is on my list.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Oh my God.
Tori Dunlap:
I haven’t been there yet.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Oh yeah. I forgot about Bologna. I can’t with food.
Tori Dunlap:
I know. They’re so good. I will also say, and I say this to anybody, I mean, this is the same thing, right? If you come to the United States, go to New York. New York’s, great. Get outside of New York. Go somewhere else. It’s the same thing with Italy. I cannot recommend enough, I’m purposely doing this on this trip where I’m taking my partner who’s never been to Italy. We’re going to go to Florence, we’re going to do the Amalfi Coast, and then I’m purposely putting us in the middle of nowhere with a car. And I’ve done this every single time Christine and I travel.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Good. Good.
Tori Dunlap:
We pick a middle of nowhere place in addition to the cities because it’s more authentic.
Kacie Rose Burns:
You did.
Tori Dunlap:
No, truly, it’s more authentic. It’s like you’re just getting a better vibe. And there’s, especially in Italy and France, there’s these tiny little cute towns that no one’s ever heard of and that no one ever talks about where you’ll have some of the best food and some of the best interactions because they’re not this huge city.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. I think first time travelers, maybe it’s your first time, you’re nervous and you’re stressed about it. Visit the big cities. It’s like you say, if you’re coming to the US for the first time, it’s like New York, LA, Miami, kind of. But the next time you come, go see the smaller towns. Go visit the smaller places. Go get off of the beaten path, get on the train to some random town, get a car and go stay in the middle like an [Italian 01:23:37] in the of the countryside somewhere. They’re like family run establishments that usually have a restaurant on site, and they’re in the middle of the countryside and they’re so authentic and so awesome. So yeah, totally agree.
Tori Dunlap:
I love Italy so much. Okay, last rapid fire question for you. Favorite word in Italian?
Kacie Rose Burns:
My favorite word in Italian. I love mamma mia.
Tori Dunlap:
Of course.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I love the phrase mamma mia. It doesn’t work for me.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, the first time you hear it, and it’s like the authentic mamma mia, it’s so fun. It’s like, “Oh my God, mamma mia.” It’s just so fun.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It’s so good. And the first time, I wrote a chapter about this too. It’s in my chapter about failure. The first time I ever heard mamma mia, my head whipped around so fast. I was like, “It’s real?”
Tori Dunlap:
It’s real.
Kacie Rose Burns:
I was like, “They say that?” And it was this woman just carried on with her day. She was like, “Mamma mia.” And I was looking around. I was like, nobody else is reacting to the phrase. And then I try it. When I say it, it doesn’t quite work. I’m getting there, but it doesn’t quite work. And it’s okay. I’ll get there one day, but I just freaking love it. I love it. It’s one of my favorite words. I love hearing other people say it. It just feels so Italian. I don’t know. It just feels so quintessentially Italian.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. That’s how I feel about almost every Italian word is I think it’s the most beautiful language. Actually, I’m doing my Duolingo before I go, so I’m learning my Italian.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Look at you. Come on.
Tori Dunlap:
When I went there with Christine when we were outside of Bari, there is a town. Now it’s written Cisternino, but as you know if you speak any Italian, CI is a ch sound, so it’s Cisternino. And something about, oh, that’s just so Italian. It’s just Cisternino.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It’s so good.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Kacie Rose Burns:
It’s like how my name, the CI is Kacie, like cacio e pepe.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep.
Kacie Rose Burns:
But it’s okay. I take it and I can run with it. No, one of my other favorite words is an Italian [Italian 01:25:48], and I don’t say it’s my favorite word because I know it’s a [Italian 01:25:52]. The first time I, a [Italian 01:25:53], sorry, I should have acknowledged this. A [Italian 01:25:56] is an Italian swear word that is so bad that there’s no translation in English. They’re bad words to say. If you scream one in public, you’ll be fined. That’s how bad they are. And they’re usually against a deity, or… They’re bad to say. You don’t say it.
But the first time I ever heard one, I was like, “This is the most beautiful word.” I didn’t know what it meant. I didn’t know what it was. I was like, “This is the most beautiful word I have ever heard in my entire life.” The rolling R, the up and the down, the inflection. I was like, “Oh my God.” And it was Dario that said it. He cut his finger or something and he said it, and it was before we moved to Italy, and I was just kind of repeating everything that I heard because I was trying to learn.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Little myna bird. Yeah.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Like a little bird. And he whipped around. He was like, “No.” He’s like, “You cannot, no.” He’s like, “No, don’t say it. You cannot say that in front, you, no, you cannot say in front of my nonna. She will die. You cannot do this.” I was like, “What?” So naturally I went to my work the next day. I taught my entire work team because I was like, “I’ve learned this amazing, beautiful Italian word.”
Yeah. I don’t say it anymore, but I love it. I can’t repeat it on here or else you’re going to be taken down.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re going to have to tell me offline what it is, because now I’m really curious. Oh my God. I really want to know. Okay. Tell me about your book. Tell me about where we can buy it. Plug away, my friend.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Okay, so my book is called You Deserve Good Gelato: Reasons to Travel the World, Embrace Failure, and Do the Shit that Scares You. It is out on May 28th, and you can get it everywhere where books are sold, Amazon, Target, Bookshop. We love to support independent booksellers, so Bookshop. Kindle, eBooks, all the good stuff. Yeah, it’s a book about travel. It encourages you to see the world and meet new people, but it is also a book about empowerment and reminding you that you are so much more capable than you think you are. And I’m so excited for it to be out in the world.
Tori Dunlap:
And folks, she’s going on tour.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
She’s going on tour. So coming to a city near you too.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Yes. Ten cities starting May 28th. We’re going to New York, Washington, DC, Ann Arbor, Minneapolis, Chicago, Seattle. I’ll see you in Seattle. San Francisco, LA, Dallas, and Boston, and I can’t wait. It’s going to be so fun.
Tori Dunlap:
I love you. I am thrilled for you on a good day, ecstatic for you on engagement day, and I am so excited for everybody to read this book. Thank you.
Kacie Rose Burns:
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, friend. Love you.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much to Kacie for joining us. Please buy her Book, You Deserve Good Gelato. It is very good. And if you need a little taste of Italian summer, Italian gelato, her book is the perfect answer to that, especially if you’re not able to go to Italy right now. She’s just an amazing person, an amazing creator. We have so much in common, her and I, and we have very similar journeys, and please support her work. It’s just really fantastic and we just love seeing women succeed. So go by her book. Go support her.
Thank you so much as always for joining us. We appreciate it, and we’ll talk to you later. Bye-Bye. Ciao.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K Podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields, Associate producer, Tamisha Grant. Research by Ariel Johnson. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and operations by Karina Patel, Amanda Leffew, Elizabeth McCumber, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Kailyn Sprinkle, Sasha Bonar, Claire Kurronen, Darrell Ann Ingman, and Jenell Riesner. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratten. Photography by Sarah Wolfe. Theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K team and community for supporting this show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over one million women negotiate salary, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of almost 250,000 on Instagram and more than 1.6 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
