What if the secret to living a longer, healthier, and happier life is simply to connect more with others?
It’s an interesting idea — and one that our guest today happens to be an expert in. In this episode of Financial Feminist, Tori sits down with renowned social health expert, Kasley Killam, MPH to discuss the concept of social health and how it affects our minds, bodies, and overall happiness.
This conversation covers some surprising facts about loneliness, especially after COVID, and how even small interactions can make a big difference. We’ll also talk about the pros and cons of social media when it comes to our connections. You’ll learn how some simple changes can have a major impact on your life. Whether you’re an introvert or an extrovert, this episode is packed with practical tips to combat loneliness and build stronger relationships.
Key takeaways:
- Social health is crucial to our well-being: Kasley explains that social health is a crucial component of our overall well-being, encompassing the quality and depth of our relationships and sense of community. This concept emphasizes that, just as physical health involves caring for our bodies and mental health for our minds, social health involves nurturing our connections with others. In a lonely world, understanding and prioritizing social health is vital for fostering a sense of belonging and emotional support.
- Loneliness has a cost: Loneliness isn’t just an emotional experience — it has tangible effects on our physical health. Kasley shares alarming statistics that highlight how loneliness can increase the risk of serious health issues such as dementia, strokes, and other complications. Recognizing loneliness as a health risk equivalent to smoking or obesity underscores the urgency of building and maintaining meaningful connections in our lives, especially in an increasingly isolated world.
- The impact of the pandemic still affects us: The pandemic significantly disrupted our social lives, forcing physical isolation and amplifying feelings of loneliness. However, Kasley also points out that the crisis revealed our capacity for resilience and adaptability. People found innovative ways to stay connected, whether through virtual gatherings or socially distanced meetups. This adaptability is crucial for navigating a lonely world, highlighting the importance of being proactive and creative in maintaining our social ties.
- Micro-connections can be powerful: Kasley emphasizes the power of micro connections—small, everyday interactions that can significantly enhance our sense of community. Simple acts like greeting a neighbor, chatting with a barista, or sending a quick text message can boost our mood and foster a feeling of belonging. In a lonely world, these micro connections are invaluable for maintaining a sense of connectedness and breaking the cycle of isolation.
- Community initiatives can enhance social health: Both individual actions and community-level efforts are crucial for enhancing social health. Kasley shares inspiring examples like Paris’s “Super Neighbors” initiative and Barcelona’s government-led efforts to combat loneliness. These initiatives show that fostering a connected community requires collective action, from grassroots movements to policy changes. In a lonely world, such community-driven approaches can create environments that support and encourage meaningful social interactions.
Notable quotes
“When researchers compare the toll of loneliness on our risk for mortality, it’s comparable to all these other things that we know are bad for us — smoking, obesity, air pollution, things like that. Loneliness is on par with those. So we need to really take it seriously.”
“There were all these opportunities for connection around me, and I just hadn’t been paying attention. I was too caught up in my own thoughts, and my own problems, and my phone to actually be paying attention to them. And so when I turned that focus outward and started going out of my way to have those micro moments of connection, it totally changed my life. I made new friends. I felt more connected to my community.”
“At the highest level, it’s (social health) really about recognizing that it’s not just exercise, and sleep, and nutrition, and things like that that make us healthy. It’s also whether or not we connect on a regular basis. Whether we feel loved, and cared for, and seen, and understood, whether we feel like we’re part of a community that brings us a sense of belonging. All of that literally determines, in part, how long we live and how healthy we live while we’re alive.”
Episode at-a-glance:
≫ 01:53 The importance of social health
≫ 10:56 Defining social health
≫ 12:53 The health implications of loneliness
≫ 17:09 The impact of the pandemic on social health
≫ 20:15 Remote work and social health
≫ 26:34 Religion, social media, and community
≫ 32:11 The dark Side of seeking belonging
≫ 36:36 Isolation as punishment
≫ 38:44 The neuroscience of isolation and connection
≫ 41:39 Reality TV and human connection
≫ 44:53 The power of micro-connections
≫ 55:55 Assessing and improving social health
≫ 01:00:49 Community initiatives for social health
Kasley’s Links:
Website: https://www.kasleykillam.com/
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Meet Kasley
Kasley Killam, MPH, is an internationally recognized expert in social health and author of the forthcoming book, The Art and Science of Connection: Why Social Health is the Missing Key to Living Longer, Healthier, and Happier. As a graduate of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, sought-after advisor and keynote speaker, and founder of Social Health Labs, Killam has been improving global well-being through connection for over a decade. Her collaborations with organizations like Google, the US Department of Health and Human Services, and the World Economic Forum contribute to building more socially healthy products, workplaces, and communities. Killam’s insights can be found in outlets such as
the New York Times, Scientific American, Psychology Today, and Washington Post.
Transcript:
Kasley Killam:
Neuroscientists have hooked people up to their scanners after they’ve been isolated for long periods, and they’ve compared that to people who didn’t eat for long periods. So they’re comparing isolation to hunger in this instance. And the same brain regions are activated in both those cases. So what that shows us is that connection and isolation, loneliness, these are cues in our brain, right. We need to connect just like we need to eat healthy foods. It’s literally as vital.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Hello financial feminists. Welcome to the show. We are so excited to see you. If you’re an oldie but a goodie, welcome back. And if you’re new here, hi, my name is Tori. I run Her First 100K, which is a money accrued platform for women. I believe I was put on this earth to fight for your financial rights. If you are so overwhelmed with money, and you don’t know where to start, you can go to herfirst100K.com/quiz and get a free personalized money plan after about six questions. It’s our way of eliminating overwhelm for you and actually getting you started on your financial journey.
So again, that is herfirst100k.com/quiz. You can do it right now assuming you’re not driving, or biking, or doing something that involves heavy machinery. Okay, let’s talk about today’s guest, because this was a very important and also very fun episode because it turns out we’re basically the same person.
Kasley Killam, MPH, is internationally recognized as leading the advancement and understanding of social health. As a graduate of the Harvard, T.H. Chan School of Public Health sought after advisor and keynote speaker, and founder of Social Health Labs, Killam has been improving global wellbeing through connection for over a decade.
Her collaborations with organizations like Google, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the World Economic Forum contribute to building more socially healthy products, workplaces, and communities. Killam’s insights can be found in outlets such as the New York Times, Scientific American, Psychology Today and Washington Post. We’re talking social health today. And if you don’t know what that is, it is so important and arguably the most important part of our health, but no one’s talking about it, and why it might be one of the most invaluable forms of time currency we have. We’re talking about the impact of loneliness on an individual and a societal level, including some very shocking statistics, but also not surprising about how loneliness impacts your physical health.
We’re also talking about some strategies to build stronger relationships and combat loneliness, whether you are an introvert or an extrovert. Just such a powerful episode, especially if you feel like you haven’t found your community, or you need a new community to feel that sense of connection, or you’re just feeling really lonely. Especially post pandemic or as we’re transitioning out of the pandemic. So really great episode. Without further ado, let’s go ahead and get into it. But first a word from our sponsors. Is it your office? Is it … Where are you?
Kasley Killam:
This is my office, yeah, my home office. I work from home.
Tori Dunlap:
For audio only listeners, she is in front of this beautifully constructed bookshelf that … I need you to come over, because I literally just spent three hours doing my bookshelf, and I still don’t like how it looks. I took everything off of it and was just like, “This is still not it,” but it’s like color coordinated and then flowery pink wallpaper with a peacock on it, and I’m just obsessed with it. It looks great.
Kasley Killam:
Honestly, organizing bookshelves brings me so much peace. I will happily come over anytime and organize your shelf for you.
Tori Dunlap:
You’ve got a little Yoda too. I see a Yoda, and then a Buddha next to the Yoda.
Kasley Killam:
I do. There’s a Buddha, yeah, there’s a lot of fun things.
Tori Dunlap:
I love it. Yeah, I like it better than I liked it before. But still. It’s like, Timothee Chalamet cardboard cutout, where are we putting that with all the rest [inaudible 00:04:08]
Kasley Killam:
Stop, you do not have a Timothee Chalamet cutout?
Tori Dunlap:
Hold please.
Kasley Killam:
No way. Oh my gosh. Where did you get that?
Tori Dunlap:
Hold on, and I also have … This is the really cute one.
Kasley Killam:
I’m such a Dune fan. Was way before the movies. So the fact that you have this is amazing.
Tori Dunlap:
Two or three years ago, this was a gift from a fan.
Kasley Killam:
Stop.
Tori Dunlap:
It is a Timothee Chalamet devotional candle, again for our audio only listeners. And it says Saint Timothee Chalamet.
Kasley Killam:
Saint.
Tori Dunlap:
And then on my book tour, somebody made me this guy.
Kasley Killam:
Oh, that’s so cute. This is hilarious.
Tori Dunlap:
He is a little Timmy from Dune. He’s got his little cute knife, his little crysknife. And he’s just loving life. And he was hand painted. I cried. Somebody gave me this and I was just like, “Oh my gosh.” So he sits on the bookshelf too.
Kasley Killam:
I love this so much.
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 00:05:01]
Kasley Killam:
There is no movie that I have seen in theaters more than Dune and Dune Two.
Tori Dunlap:
Kristen is just so upset because all I’ve been doing on this show … She’s had to cut so many times and be being like, Dune Two. Dune Two. Okay. How many times have you seen it?
Kasley Killam:
Three so far. But I like to pace it.
Tori Dunlap:
Me too. I have seen it three, and I’m not kidding. I literally just posted on Instagram stories the other week. I’m like, “Do I see Dune for a fourth time? Second time in IMAX?”
Kasley Killam:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s been like two weeks since I’ve seen it, and it’s too … I miss it. I need to go back.
Kasley Killam:
Okay. I literally … My local theater was giving out T-shirts a week in advance, so I went to the pre preview of it and got free T-shirts. I wish I had it here. I should have worn it. I didn’t know you were this big of a fan.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh my God. Oh, no. I think he’s referenced probably 10 times in my book. This whole thing’s a sham to get to Timothy Chalamet. I don’t care about money. I don’t care feminism. I care about Timothy Chalamet. No. Did you get the popcorn bucket?
Kasley Killam:
I did not. Did you?
Tori Dunlap:
No. I didn’t either. I feel like only a select few people got the popcorn bucket.
Kasley Killam:
Yeah, it’s pretty controversial.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, but I feel like it’s lore now. No, I’m listening to the audio, but I’m fully in Dune now.
Kasley Killam:
I love this so much.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m fully in it, fully tapped in. I’m like the Bene Gesserit [inaudible 00:06:27]
Kasley Killam:
Did you read the books?
Tori Dunlap:
No, I hadn’t read them.
Kasley Killam:
Okay.
Tori Dunlap:
Purposely trying to go in blind, and then was like … Yeah, saw Dune Two so many times where I was like, “Okay, this is really cool.” And then literally I was just on Dune Wiki being like, “The Bene Gesserit, what is the breeding program? What is the breeding line?” I was fully in it. I’m fully in it now.
Kasley Killam:
I love it. It’s a rare movie where I read the books actually years before. And it not only met my expectations but exceeded them. And that’s so rare for a book to do. So, yeah, love it.
Tori Dunlap:
And especially Dune was like the thing that everybody talked about is completely unadaptable because it was … You’re in media res, it just drops you in. You’ll have to figure out a bunch of shit. And I feel like, yeah, as I’m listening to the audiobook, I’m like, “Wow, they did a great job at the screenplay. They did a great job actually cutting things that were superfluous that we don’t need.” Because half the book it feels like is just people being like, “How do we go to war?” For 20 minutes, right? That’s the entire book is just like two people talking about what is the best battle strategy, and doesn’t make a compelling movie.
Kasley Killam:
They nailed it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, no, I love it.
Kasley Killam:
They nailed it.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m not just saying this. My partner makes fun of me because he’s like, “You just like it because Timothy Chalamet’s in it. I’m like, “No, I don’t.” I think it’s a fantastic movie. I think it’s one of the best movies in a long time. You’ve convinced me to go see it again.
Kasley Killam:
I agree. Both of them. Both of them are iconic. Yeah. This is not how I saw this podcast going, but I love it. I love it.
Tori Dunlap:
Welcome to the show.
Kasley Killam:
Should we just keep talking about this for an hour?
Tori Dunlap:
I mean, don’t tell [inaudible 00:08:05] No, but I am interested in your work, and why you’re actually here. So we’re going to transition right into social health, but tell me what it is that brought you to that world of social health. What was the initial prompt?
Kasley Killam:
Yeah. I am so passionate about this topic. I feel like since I was a kid, I was fascinated by human connection, and perplexed by it and trying to understand it. I remember being a kid on the playground in elementary school, watching the social dynamics between groups and with my friends. And truly from a child I was paying attention to that. But there were various experiences throughout my life that made me really want to understand how we can build more meaningful relationships. For one thing, I grew up in a very loving, wonderful family, but there was conflict, there was divorce. My parents got divorced when I was young. There were estrangements in my broader family, which is something we don’t talk about a lot, but it’s actually super common. And so, I wanted to understand how do we empathize better? How do we get along across differences?
And then as I got older, I realized that I was an introvert trying to fit in, in a very extroverted world when I got my first job and things like that. It was trying to navigate how do I balance socializing with the solitude that I need? How do I thrive professionally while also taking care of my own needs for rest? And then I moved around a lot, right? I’ve lived in three countries, and I think it’s 12 or 13 cities and towns now, which is way too much moving around. I don’t say that as a good thing, because every time you move you have to make new friends, and build a new community, and stay in touch with loved ones who are far away. And so, I had to figure that out numerous times. And so, I was trying to make sense of this throughout my life and trying to figure out how do I navigate these things?
And I turned to the research. I’m a social scientist by training. I studied psychology as an undergraduate student. I studied public health as a master’s student, and I was fascinated by the data. When I first came across studies where scientists were actually running experiments around human connection and studying these issues, my inner nerd just freaked out. I couldn’t believe there was research about this. And so, I turned to that for answers and said, “How do we take these research insights and actually apply them in our own lives to live better lives through connection?” And that has been my mission over the past, over 10 years now. Studying that, applying it in my life, applying it with the communities and organizations that I work with, and now giving it to everyone through this book.
Tori Dunlap:
I have so many questions. I’m so excited to talk to you about all of this. We have to first define, though, before we really get into it because both for the rest of this conversation for me, but also for a listener, how would you define social health? What is a really broad definition of what we’re talking about here?
Kasley Killam:
Totally. And this term is not well known. It’s not part of the mainstream public conversation. So, absolutely, let’s start with the definition. I define social health as the part of our overall health and wellbeing that comes from connection. So if you think about physical health as being about our bodies and mental health as being about our minds, social health is about our relationships and our sense of community.
That’s the basic definition. And we can go into much more detail on what that looks like, what it means to be socially healthy. But at the highest level, it’s really about recognizing that it’s not just exercise, and sleep, and nutrition, and things like that that make us healthy. It’s also whether or not we connect on a regular basis. Whether we feel loved, and cared for, and seen, and understood, whether we feel like we’re part of a community that brings us a sense of belonging. All of that literally determines, in part, how long we live and how healthy we live while we’re alive.
Tori Dunlap:
What you just said at the end there is something that I learned a couple of years ago that I think blew my mind, which is, one, and the hierarchy of needs. Yes, it’s food, and water, and oxygen. But it’s also safety, and community, and belonging. And I also learned that a huge chunk of people who age and get older don’t die from physical health complications. They die from isolation. They die from lack of interaction with people, lack of friendship and community. And in your book, you talk about the actual health implications. Dementia, strokes. Can we talk specifically about this data and what it’s showing us, and then why it’s specifically so alarming?
Kasley Killam:
Absolutely. Sure. So let’s dig into some of the research first. So in the book, I kind of categorize the health benefits of connection and the health risks of loneliness in three ways. The first is longevity, the second is physical health, and the third is mental health and happiness. So the research shows, now at this point, we have decades of studies with literally billions of participants from psychologists, epidemiologists, neuroscientists and so on, showing that first of all, people live longer when they are meaningfully connected, when they have supportive relationships.
And this has been shown in a number of different ways. One of the most interesting and kind of first studies that looked at this was done in the ’70s where they followed about 7,000 people over close to a decade. And they found that men who lacked kind of close social ties and community ties were twice as likely to die during that period.
And women on the other hand, were almost three times as likely to pass away. And this was taking into account how educated they were, what kind of lifestyles they lived, whether they went to use their local healthcare, if they smoked, if they eat healthy food. So it was taking into account all those other health behaviors that we do. And still what rose above was the fact that people’s social connections were predicting whether or not they were going to live a long time. So longevity is one piece of the puzzle. The second category is around our physical health. So how healthy we actually are when we live. So people who are isolated or lonely on a regular basis have a higher risk of stroke, of diabetes, of cancer, of complications, of worse recoveries when they’re diagnosed with an illness. So across a number of different ways, we see that people’s health outcomes are worse.
So our relationships seem to protect us from getting sick in the first place, and then help us heal once we are diagnosed with an illness or disease. So it’s really important for actually being healthy as well as living long. And then that third category, which is around the quality of our lives, our mental health. Isolation and loneliness is linked to depression. It’s linked to cognitive decline. And of course, connection makes us happy. We feel good when we’re surrounded by friends, when we have loving family members, when we feel like we’re part of a community and embedded in a group that we feel like we belong in. So across all those varieties of ways, we see that people are healthier, happier, live longer lives through connection.
Tori Dunlap:
So what you’re really saying is being lonely or loneliness is killing us?
Kasley Killam:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And when researchers compare the toll of loneliness on our risk for mortality, it’s comparable to all these other things that we know are bad for us. Smoking, obesity, air pollution, things like that. Loneliness is on par with those. So we need to really take it seriously. And what’s worrisome right now is that a lot of trends in the US but also in countries around the world are showing that more and more people feel disconnected.
So people in general feel like they don’t belong in their communities. Three in four Americans don’t feel like they have a sense of belonging within their community. 64% feel like they don’t belong within their workplace, which is a place where we’re spending a lot of our time. Globally, we see that about 20% don’t have anyone that they can reach out to for help and rely on.
A lot of people are lonely. Last year, the U.S. surgeon general declared loneliness and epidemic formally and issued an advisory and national strategy around this. Other countries like Japan and the UK have appointed ministers for loneliness. So clearly something’s going on here and we really need to pay attention to this, and really start to elevate social health and recognize that it’s as important as our physical and mental health.
Tori Dunlap:
So when I’m thinking about the causes. I have a couple in mind that I’m wondering if we can talk about. The first that is so glaringly obvious to me is we just all went through a global pandemic where we were forced to isolate. So what has the pandemic or what has been the impact of the pandemic on our social health?
Kasley Killam:
Yeah, it’s a really interesting question. So certainly the pandemic took a toll, right? It was hard for all of us. I mean, let’s be real.
Tori Dunlap:
Personally, I will say, yeah, worst mental health days of my life. Yeah, definitely.
Kasley Killam:
Yeah, absolutely. And speaking about our relationships in particular, it literally kept us apart. I couldn’t see my family who was in Canada, for two years. Literally, I couldn’t see them in person and hug the people I love most in the world for two years. That’s absolutely awful. And so, I think we all have experiences where we felt disconnected, we felt the toll that takes on our health and our well-being without question.
I will say however, that some of the research is surprising and gives me a more optimistic outlook. So certain studies that track people over time found that while there was this dip and this decline in social health, initially, people adapted fairly quickly and found ways to still feel connected despite being apart. And that over time, as the pandemic entered a new phase and we were able to be back in person, that those effects kind of went away.
Now, a lot of this is, it’s complicated and thorny, and the research, frankly is still emerging. But enough studies have come out showing that we’re resilient and we’ve figured it out in a lot of ways. That I’m left actually feeling really optimistic that we can, when we’re decisive about it and decide to prioritize it, we can feel connected despite circumstances like the pandemic.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I mean, I can speak for myself as an individual, but I think a lot of people feel this way of, it’s kind of like you don’t know how good it is until you don’t have it. I feel like so many people now are seeking that in-person connection, and that in-person experience because we couldn’t have it for multiple years. So I do feel like in that way, it’s made us more grateful for the time we do have and made us seek it out more.
Kasley Killam:
Absolutely. It made us all appreciate our relationships more. It made us recognize the value and how it literally feels in our bodies to be alone for so long. It’s awful. So we all experienced firsthand what the research has been telling us for decades. And as a result of that, it’s catapulted us into the stage collectively where more and more people realize that connection is a health behavior, like brushing your teeth or going to the doctor once a year. It’s something that we need to do regularly. And it’s forced us into this conversation where we can talk about this, and where the U.S. surgeon general is saying, “Hey, loneliness is a problem. Let’s do something about this.”
So in that sense, also, I think we’ve actually reached a tipping point in large part thanks to the pandemic, where we are collectively catching up to what the research has been showing us for a long time.
Tori Dunlap:
So the next one that’s on my mind that’s kind of related and that I have been dealing with, remote work. I go sometimes a full day or multiple days without seeing anybody because I’m just talking to myself in my office. So there’s so many valuable parts about remote work, but there’s also, as someone who really gets a lot of energy from other people, and I miss that a lot. So let’s talk about remote work and the impact that’s made.
Kasley Killam:
And I work from home too. I’m in the same boat. There are entire days where I realize I have not interacted with another human other than my husband in person. And that’s not good for us. So yes, remote work is absolutely a challenge for social health, and I think it’s one that a lot of us are still contending with. But the biggest thing I can recommend is for everyone to be intentional. Whether that’s with your remote work situation, or whether that’s just out and about when you’re going about your days.
So for me, that’s looked like creating support groups of people, mentors, but also colleagues who I can talk to both one-on-one relationships and groups that I’m a part of, where we can reach out and ask for support, and ask questions and confide in one another. And really doubling down on making sure that I have supportive relationships so that when I start to feel alone in my work, I’m able to reach out to them. I’m sure that’s something you can relate to too, but it just takes extra practice. We’re not seeing people in person all the time. So yeah, it’s a challenge for sure.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I think, for me, it’s … With a completely remote team, we do some virtual co-working, which isn’t the in-person that you crave, but it’s better than just all of us isolated. And then with the team that is in the same city, at least once a month, we do actual co-working together. So I’ve also had friends who co-work in spaces or meeting at a cafe with another friend who works remotely. And you work at different companies, you do different jobs, but you’re just there physically together. I feel like that’s something that’s been really helpful for me.
Kasley Killam:
Absolutely. And I spend a lot of time later in the book talking about how we spend so much time working. We literally spend more time working than we do seeing our family and friends.
So our coworkers are a huge opportunity for social health. It’s a huge opportunity for regular connection, and given how much time we spend working, if that is predominantly isolated or lonely, that’s going to have huge long-term effects on our health and wellbeing. If that’s predominantly connected in meaningful ways, which doesn’t necessarily mean connecting all the time, but having the support we need and enough interaction to feel fulfilled, that’s similarly going to have a huge impact on our lives overall.
So we really want to pay attention to that. And then also recognize that social health comes from all of our different relationships. So if we’re not feeling … A lot of people still go into the office or go into their physical workspaces, and maybe they don’t feel connected in those places, and there are ways that they can try and foster more connection. But it’s also about recognizing that in that case, you can also rely more on your friends and family outside of work. On your neighbors, on your community, on the hobbies that you enjoy and the groups that you can form around those. So recognizing that any one person or any one group that you’re part of isn’t going to fulfill all of your social needs. So how can you diversify and make sure that you’re getting your connection quota met in a variety of different ways at work and elsewhere?
Tori Dunlap:
I love that third places. Talk to us about what a third place is and why there’s less of them, and how that impacts us.
Kasley Killam:
Yeah, absolutely. So a third place is this idea in sociology of the places where we go to gather. So a first place is basically your home. A second place is your workplace or your school, and a third place is all those in-between places where you can connect with friends, family, community. So things like libraries, and parks, and coffee shops, and restaurants, and community centers.
Those are examples of third spaces. And when I was doing my master’s at the Harvard School of Public Health, I was studying solutions for loneliness. And I found in the research all this amazing data on how literally the physical places that we spend time in influence whether or not we end up connecting with people. And so the, importance of third places is vital, right?
It’s a vital resource in our lives where we can actually physically go connect with one another. And we need to be investing in third spaces to make sure that we have those opportunities for connection on a regular basis. Whether that’s going to a coffee shop and just being around people, which I love to do. I wrote a lot of my book in a coffee shop, or at the library, my local library as well. And sometimes it’s nice to just feel other people around you. But then it’s also about bringing those third places to life through activities, and programming, through events, through things like that, so that we can actually meet new people and interact and go a little bit deeper. So it’s being around people in those spaces, but then also actually having those opportunities to connect, make new friends, and start to develop meaningful relationships.
Tori Dunlap:
For me, that’s looked like group fitness classes.
Kasley Killam:
Totally.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s good for me, but it’s also like I missed going to barre classes so much in the pandemic. Because I miss the structure. I miss the movement, but also I missed just being around people, and especially as somebody who works remotely, that was like sometimes, yeah, my only connection was going and seeing people in barre. So yeah, that was and continues to be one of my third places.
I was thinking about that while you were talking of the third place. I think, obviously, we have … Every generation that goes by gets slightly less enthusiastic about religion and about organized religion. And from previous generations I think that that was a huge source of belonging, and of community, and of purpose outside of your work, outside your home was your church, or your synagogue, or your faith community. And I think that especially millennials and Gen Z, we know from the data are less and less religious, or less and less … More spiritual maybe, but not going to church or going to some sort of organized place. So I imagine that’s also contributing to the loneliness that we feel.
Kasley Killam:
Yeah, for sure. I think the latest statistic I saw on that was that about 30% of people in the U.S. don’t affiliate with any religion right now, up from about 5% in prior decades.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Kasley Killam:
We’re definitely seeing that fewer and fewer people are affiliating with religion, but also going into places like churches where they’re actually meeting with other people in their community. So yeah, that’s for sure contributing to it. And what I find interesting is thinking about what are people turning to instead of that? If we’re not going to a church, for example, every Sunday, where are we going to find that sense of community?
And a lot of people don’t know where to go, and aren’t finding it, which isn’t a good thing. Or hopefully we’re finding new and creative ways to connect through digital means, or through other groups that we care about, whether it’s like you said, going and working out, a hiking group, a book club, things like that. But we need that community. It’s so important for our social health, for our physical health, for our mental health. And so if we’re not finding it in religion, we need to find it somewhere else.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and you mentioned social media, which is the last one of my little post-it note list that I was keeping. So many parts of social media … I live on social media, our business lives on social media. So many parts of that can offer community. And so many parts of social media feel even more isolating, and even worse. So I don’t know. My actual question was going to be, is social media a good thing or a bad thing? But I know that that’s a very black and white not nuanced question. I imagine it’s both.
Kasley Killam:
It is both. It’s absolutely both. And the studies are showing that it’s really about how we use social media and technology that determines whether or not it leaves us feeling more lonely or more connected. So when we’re mindlessly scrolling on social media not actually interacting in a meaningful way, which raise our hands, we all do it. That’s not fulfilling. That leaves people feeling more lonely, anxious, depressed, and so on.
But when we use it to stay in touch with people, or to meet new people, or to actually deepen relationships in some cases, that’s super powerful. In the book, I write about a woman who was going through cancer and used a support group online where all her friends and family could consolidate their support in one place and see a to-do list where they could help with different tasks to make sure that she was on track with her care regimen, and send her warm messages so that she didn’t have to stay connected with everyone and update everyone all the time. It was all in one central place.
That’s a great example of using technology to feel more meaningfully connected with other people. But this also gets at a bigger question, which is that to really be socially healthy, sure, there’s a lot that we can do as individuals. And my entire book is full of practical recommendations so that we can all be empowered to live more meaningfully connected lives. But it’s also going to take all of the organizations, the companies that are building these social media tools, and then also the policies that we enact in our society. The healthcare system, and how it’s paying attention to these issues, the education system and what we’re teaching kids from a young age about how to be socially healthy.
It takes all of that broader context changing as well. Yes, there’s a ton that we can do as individuals, and we should feel empowered to be more socially healthy. But also, with social media in particular, we need to make sure that the incentives in these technology companies are such that it’s actually supporting our physical, mental, and social health.
Tori Dunlap:
All drains lead to the ocean for us on the show. Where it’s like, “Okay, there’s individual intervention, but then there’s all of the interpersonal and institutional community policy levels. All of that has a much bigger understanding. And that’s a bigger factor on how lonely we feel compared to how much are we getting out there? And it’s a much bigger part of the equation in the pie than just your own individual choices.
Kasley Killam:
A hundred percent, right? It’s whether socially healthy behaviors were modeled to you by your parents, whether you were taught social skills and emotional intelligence growing up. It’s whether, in your community, if you feel safe leaving the house and able to access transportation to even get to see other people in the first place.
It’s all of these things. It’s the policies around parental leave that influence how much time we can spend with our loved ones when we bring a new life into the world. It’s all of these things collectively. The third places and so on, and so on that are influencing our social health. And so, while we work on those, tackling those bigger issues in the broader context around us, we can also be taking steps every day to strengthen our social muscles individually.
Tori Dunlap:
I jokingly call this the transition to when the hunt for belonging turns sour. But I studied … In my undergrad, I wrote my thesis on terrorist groups and how terrorist groups, cults, all of these organizations give you a sense of belonging for people who have never experienced it before, but the most radical version of that, right?
And I feel like there is some organizations or some people who prey on loneliness, and some people who feel they don’t have that community, they don’t have that sense of belonging, and they get roped into something. We talk about MLMs a lot on this show. That’s a perfect example of this too. As you just are then a part of this community that feels either toxic at best, or very, very unsafe, violent at the worst version.
So I don’t know what my question is, but I don’t know. Talk to me about that, of like, okay, if I am so lonely, how easy is it for me to … The Q Anon conspiracies, how easy is that for me to find? How easy is it for me to get kind of radicalized in that attempt to find community and belonging?
Kasley Killam:
Yeah, I think this is such a great point. There’s a lot here.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Kasley Killam:
I see it as community, belonging to a community feeling like you’re part of a group, that there’s a shared purpose or a shared identity. That’s a really wonderful thing, and we know that that improves our health. However, like you’re saying, it can cross a line into dangerous territory, whether it’s a cult, whether it’s a terrorist group. And that’s kind of where community goes wrong.
And the thing I worry about now, today, especially here in the U.S. is that polarization is a great example of this. Where we are so divided across political beliefs that it creates a lot of hatred, a lot of just … It creates a very difficult situation for us to move forward in collaboration collectively to empathize across lines and so on. And so, I think there’s so much more here, and it was outside the scope of what I wrote about in the book. But I think it’s one of the most important questions for us to answer in the coming years. How do we reunite, and how do we connect across these barriers that we’re currently facing?
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and you mentioned, I think in your book, in your work that of course, disconnection is an issue. That lack of connection takes its toll. But there’s also the flip side, which is either, okay, I have too much connection, it’s overwhelming, and I don’t have time for myself. Or it’s just unfulfilling connection. I’m with people, but I don’t actually get much out of this relationship, or I don’t feel actually fulfilled. Can you talk more about that?
Kasley Killam:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s wonderful that as a society, we’re focusing on loneliness as a public health issue. But there are so many other ways in which we’re not socially healthy on a day-to-day basis. Whether that’s feeling overwhelmed by social media and feeling like we’re interacting all the time, even though it’s not quality interaction, right? One of the principles that I write about in the book is quality over quantity.
So it’s not just about socializing all the time or having a ton of friends. It’s about socializing in ways that are actually meaningful, having deeper conversations. It’s about having really close supportive mutual relationships that go deeper. And so, absolutely, we can feel overwhelmed by social media, and that’s one sign of not being socially healthy in a different way that loneliness doesn’t capture. And that’s why we really need to broaden the way that we’re talking about our social lives right now.
Loneliness is one aspect, but it’s also about balancing. It’s about going for quality over quantity. It’s about nurturing your one-on-one friendships and relationships with family and so on. But it’s also about being part of groups that are healthy, right? Communities that are good for us and so on. So yeah, this is a really important piece, that being socially healthy isn’t just the absence of loneliness, it’s also the presence of meaningful connection, and it’s also not feeling drained by our social obligations.
Tori Dunlap:
Our researcher, Sarah, found this … It’s really smart. When she brought up this idea to us of isolation used as punishment. When you think about prisons, incarceration, is this something you’ve looked into? Is this something you’ve studied? Because again, you’ve just proved of how big of an impact this has. And I’m thinking about … I mean, solitary confinement is an actual thing. It’s this idea of basically putting somebody in a locked room with nothing to entertain them and nobody around to interact with. And that’s punishment. That feels so beyond cruel.
Kasley Killam:
Yeah. Yeah. The first time I ever did virtual reality was a simulation of solitary confinement.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh God.
Kasley Killam:
It was so eye-opening. I can’t remember the name of the group, but it was in a cell. So I put on the headsets and it was like being in a solitary confinement cell. But they had recorded audio from an actual prison in the solitary confinement wing. And so you had the audio of people down in the hallways, and it was so upsetting that when I came out of the experience and took the VR headset off, I started crying. It literally brought tears to my eyes.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, I’m crying right now, just you talking about it. Yeah. I’m just like, that sounds … I mean, awful is not as strong enough word. That sounds horrific.
Kasley Killam:
It was horrific, absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, it speaks volumes that our version of the most severe punishment, aside from the death penalty is extreme isolation. That tells us what we need to know.
Tori Dunlap:
Right, which is what you said, is that if there’s anything to prove your point that isolation is a hundred percent necessary. It’s the fact that yeah, the biggest punishment other than killing somebody, or other than the death penalty is we’re going to put you on your own and give you no sort of outside stimuli, and no sort of entertainment.
And yeah, you’re not even typically seeing the people who are giving you food if you’re getting food at all. Yeah. There’s no connection. And of course you go crazy.
Kasley Killam:
Of course.
Tori Dunlap:
Of course that happens. Of course, of course. Because all you got is your own brain.
Kasley Killam:
Yeah. There’s also interesting research. So for example, neuroscientists have hooked people up to their scanners after they’ve been isolated for long periods. And they’ve compared that to people who didn’t eat for long periods. So they’re comparing isolation to hunger in this instance. And the same brain regions are activated in both those cases. So what that shows us is that connection and isolation, loneliness, these are cues in our brain. We need to connect just like we need to eat healthy foods. It’s literally as vital. When we are alone for too long, it’s signaling in our brain just like we’re starving. Oh my gosh, you need connection. Just like you need food and water. It’s vital.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. We can cut this if you don’t actually watch it. Do you watch Survivor?
Kasley Killam:
Oh my god. Are we like soul friends? Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Okay. I was like, there’s no way you study social health and you don’t watch Survivor. I’m sorry, Kristen. I just blew up the mic. But I was like, there’s no fucking way. Did you watch last night?
Kasley Killam:
I didn’t watch last night yet.
Tori Dunlap:
Have you seen it yet?
Kasley Killam:
Don’t tell me.
Tori Dunlap:
So I’m not going to spoil it.
Kasley Killam:
Okay, but this is the worst season.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. Anybody who’s not a Survivor fan, you can skip it.
Kasley Killam:
I don’t like the season.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s not good. I agree. It’s starting to get better. I have been bored for most of this season. Okay, quick thing. Quick aside, and then we could talk about Survivor. In 2020, I was with my best friend Christine. We go on a trip with best friends every year, and we call it a friend moon. And we were on our friend moon, and I had done an interview where somebody asked me, “What do you think the best game ever invented was?” And I said Survivor and I rightfully said Survivor.
And she was reading this interview that I had done, and she’s like, what the fuck are you talking about? This is reality TV show. And I was like, “No, you do not understand,” and I’m going to tell everybody what I told her, which I’m like, “It is the ultimate sociology experiment, which is taking different people from different walks of life and different ages, putting them all together. They have to survive.”
[inaudible 00:40:43] pun intended, but, they have to survive while they also haven’t eaten and they haven’t slept very well. And they’re lying to each other. And also, the game has evolved so much in the past 25 now years of it being played, where in the early days it was just like, who deserved the money most? And now it’s just like … Yeah, you backstab people. It happens, what is and what is not okay.
Somebody has been outed as trans in one of the seasons, and people decided, nope, that wasn’t okay, which of course. And so, I just love it because I think it’s such a … And again, it’s changed and it’s evolved. If you take one person out or one person wins a challenge, and the other person … Everything about a season could change. So basically I got her into it. She is now a devotee watcher, and went back and watched a bunch of the seasons. But I don’t know. I feel like we’re talking about belonging. We’re talking about connection. We’re talking about social health. Isn’t Survivor like the epitome of what we’re talking about here?
Kasley Killam:
Yes. I love this so much. Honestly, any reality TV that has human connection at the core is my favorite pastime. I know I’m supposed to be a legit social scientist who reads research all the time, but-
Tori Dunlap:
No. You’re a multifaceted, multi nuanced person. Great. That’s fine.
Kasley Killam:
Honestly, Love is Blind. Anything like that. There’s a great show called, Alone, which I think you would like.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, yes.
Kasley Killam:
Have you seen this?
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, I’ve heard about it. My parents got really into Alone in the pandemic.
Kasley Killam:
So they send a person off to some remote area, and they actually just have to literally survive by themselves.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m a Naked and Afraid person. If that’s on, I’ll wash it. That feels also … Again, we’re talking about the sociology of you have to get past the vulnerability of nakedness in order to survive with a complete stranger. No, I just think, yeah, any of these are great examples of, one, the importance of human connection. But two, the sociology, the strategy of how do you connect with somebody? When does somebody turn you off in terms of … We’ve all seen Debbie on Survivor who was just so difficult to be around. And it’s just so interesting to me.
Kasley Killam:
So interesting.
Tori Dunlap:
And that’s why I love that show.
Kasley Killam:
So interesting. On the Alone show, which for people who haven’t watched this, they literally just drop someone off in the middle of nowhere and they have to survive. What’s so fascinating about that to me is that a lot of them quit not because they’re hungry, not because they can’t-
Tori Dunlap:
Or cold, or there’s bears.
Kasley Killam:
… build shelter or there’s bears, or they’re worried they’re going to die. It’s loneliness. They miss their family. They miss their friends. And they’re like, “What am I doing this for? The money? That’s not important. What’s important is being with my kids. It’s being with my partner. It’s spending time with the people I love.” And so a lot of the times people end up leaving because they’re like, “No, I am craving connection. That’s more important than money.”
Tori Dunlap:
And you hear that a lot with Survivor when somebody’s just at their breaking point and they’re like, “I’m so tired and I miss my family, but I’m out here for them.” That’s what they say, “I’m trying to win this game.” Some people leave newborn children, or their wife is pregnant at home. And they’re like, “No, I’m doing this for my family,” which is a whole other conversation about … I actually wanted to do an episode about this, about how we have told Americans that you have to go on a game show and risk your life in order to have actual cost of living money. But that’s the conversation for another time. No, but I just think it’s so fascinating. I think Survivor is so fascinating. It sounds like I need to watch Alone. Yeah, it’s so fascinating to me.
Kasley Killam:
I totally agree. I am obsessed with all of these shows because I think it’s literally psychology and all of it happening on screen in real time. It’s such a fascinating experiment.
Tori Dunlap:
And what treatment people will or won’t accept. And what is, “In the game,” and I put that in quotes versus what is outside of the game. Yeah, one of the early seasons, somebody swore on their mom, but their mom was dead. And when people found that out, they were so mad. But now, 20 years later, everybody doesn’t believe anything.
And so, it’s just like, it’s so interesting. Yeah, how the game has evolved, what’s acceptable, what’s not. Yeah. No, I love it. [inaudible 00:44:47]
Kasley Killam:
Again, not what I thought we’d talk about, but I love this.
Tori Dunlap:
No, it makes me really happy. Okay. I read an article, and by me saying, I read an article, I saw a TikTok about micro connections. About these, like, “I go to a grocery store and the Trader Joe’s cashier, and I flirt, because of course everybody flirts with you at Trader Joe’s. I walk past somebody on the street and they say, hi. I see a dog and I pet the dog at the dog park.” I think because a lot of us work remote and because Amazon can deliver anything to our front door, we’re missing a lot of these micro connections. So can we maybe talk about … I mean, I kind of gave examples, but what they are, and how we can maybe incorporate more of those in our lives as an easier way to start building connection?
Kasley Killam:
For sure. Yes. This is really important. So the research definitely shows … So far, I’ve talked about the importance of those deep relationships that we have with our close friends and family. And those are vital and very life-giving. But to your point, there’s also value from those micro connections, the small doses of interaction that we get when we’re saying hi to a barista, or getting on the bus and being friendly with the driver, or chit-chatting with a neighbor over the fence, or things like that.
All of those interactions also matter. They make us feel connected to the community around us. They anchor us in letting us know that we’re just not out on the moon by ourselves living on an island, right? It’s about feeling connected to the community and to humanity. So those micro moments matter. And there’s interesting studies. For example, there was one experiment I think last year where they sent people into a coffee shop to order a coffee. And some people just ordered their coffee like normal, carried on with their day.
Other people literally just added a minute to that interaction by asking the barista how they were doing, and smiling, and just being present in that interaction. And those people who did that felt so much better throughout the day. That just micro moment of connection with someone you might not even know, you don’t know anything about them, but just having that positive exchange feels good.
So this was something I experimented with firsthand when I was in my final semester as an undergraduate. I decided to do one act of kindness every day for almost four months. And my experiment was like, “What happens if you just prioritize those micro moments of connection every day?” Writing thank you cards to people in my life, helping someone carry their stroller upstairs. Little things like that, as well as more meaningful things, right? Helping out a friend in need and so on.
But for four months, literally I couldn’t go to bed at night unless I had connected meaningfully or in a small way with some other human. And the results of doing that every single day and being intentional about it, and going out with these glasses as if I was just paying attention to all the people around me rather than caught up in my own to-do list. And at that time, I was in school, so the homework I had to do, and what was I going to get for a job after I graduated and all those things.
Tori Dunlap:
Or looking at your phone.
Kasley Killam:
Or looking at my phone.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s the big one for I think most people, is it’s just like you miss so many potential social interactions. Even just like a smile exchange because you’re on your phone. And I mean, I’m speaking for myself here too.
Kasley Killam:
Absolutely, absolutely. And that was the most shocking thing was there were all these opportunities for connection around me, and I just hadn’t been paying attention. I was too caught up in my own thoughts, and my own problems, and my phone to actually be paying attention to them. And so when I turned that focus outward and started going out of my way to have those micro moments of connection, it totally changed my life. I made new friends. I felt more connected to my community.
I deepened the relationships with my loved ones. But also, it was so energizing that it gave me motivation to cook healthier foods, and to be more efficient when I was studying or writing an essay or whatever I was doing. So it had all these transformative effects across my life. I mean, it’s one of the happiest times in my life because I was just paying attention to other people and finding ways to connect with them.
Tori Dunlap:
It is really funny you say that because I ordered Chipotle last night. I was going to go pick it up, the person putting the order together, he was this young kid, probably like 19. And there were a lot of people waiting. And I could tell some people were getting impatient. And I was on my phone for a little bit, and then I was like, “I don’t need to be on my phone.” And I put my phone away, and I was just watching him. And he was probably slower than most people would’ve liked, but he took so much care in making a burrito, making a quesadilla, putting everything together.
And I waited for my food for a while, and then called my name, and I looked him in the eye and I went, “Thank you so much for all the care you put into your work.” And I am not trying to pat myself on the back, but it made me feel so good.
I was just like, “Okay, that was lovely. I will probably never see this person again. I’ll probably never talk to them again.” But I wanted them to know in that moment that their work was valued, their work was important, and that if anybody else gave them, shit, nope, that you were putting care and you’re taking your time intentionally with your work. And I think that’s … Yeah, for me, I just felt, yeah, there was a connection there that didn’t take a lot of effort. That wasn’t like, “Hey, let’s go get coffee.” It was just like, “Okay, I have this real moment of connection with another human being.”
Kasley Killam:
Exactly. The other thing is you never know when something you say that’s as simple as that is going to change someone’s life. I mean, that could mean way more to that person than you realize.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally. I met my partner at a bar. Crazy. We were sitting next to each other, we met at a bar, and now we’ve been together for two years. But also to your point of, if somebody’s having a really bad day and somebody says something nice to me, that changes my entire day, potentially my entire life.
Kasley Killam:
First of all, I love that you said that you met your partner at a bar. I met my now husband in the staircase of our apartment building in San Francisco. He struck up conversation, and we talked for a minute. And then the next day he put a bottle of wine and a card outside my door, and seven years later we’re still together. So yes, you never know. Literally, strike up conversations.
Tori Dunlap:
That is the … I’m literally crying. I’m about to start my period. I’m a mess. No, that is so cute. That is the ultimate meet cute, if I’ve ever heard one. And what a cool opportunity too, because he could have just been like, “Okay, she’s cute, whatever.” But actually like, “Okay, bottle of wine, gesture. Let’s get things …” I love that. Okay. Sorry. Keep going. That’s just lovely.
Kasley Killam:
Love it too. I know. I love him for doing that. But I love what you’re saying because there’s … Okay, so there was a study done last year that looked at how much people appreciate just receiving a random text saying something as simple as, “I’m thinking of you,” right? And people consistently and significantly underestimate how much the recipient is going to appreciate that.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh God, yeah.
Kasley Killam:
Literally. So one of the hacks that I do is when a friend, or colleague, or someone comes to mind and just pops into my head for whatever reason, I send them a text or an email, literally. It could be one sentence being like, “Hey, thinking of you.”
Tori Dunlap:
You and I are the same person. You are the same person.
Kasley Killam:
You know what?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I do this [inaudible 00:52:42] all the time.
Kasley Killam:
Because it matters. When someone does that to me, I love it. I’m like, “Thank you so much.” It doesn’t have to turn into an hour long conversation. I think sometimes we feel like being socially … Here, I’ll drop parallel. When we think about our physical health, it can be overwhelming. At first, we’re like, “Oh my gosh, I have to walk 10,000 steps a day. I have to get nine hours of sleep at night. This isn’t attainable. I have to totally transform my life if I want to be physically healthy.”
No, in fact, even just getting up and stretching and walking around your house, or around the block has measurable effects on your health. It doesn’t have to be these major transformations in your life to reap the benefits. And it’s the same with connection. Sending a simple text message. If you don’t know where to start and feel overwhelmed by it can be as simple as that. Just letting someone know that you’re thinking of them.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. I will also say too, because you and I are the same person, this is exactly what I do. I will often think of somebody who I haven’t talked to in years. And what my brain does is my brain goes, “Well, you haven’t talked in a while, and maybe they don’t want to talk to you.” And I fight that every time. So I can hear you dear listener, I can hear your brain going, “Yeah, but I’m not going to do that.” Be prepared to be cringy. Be prepared to not get a response back. That’s fine, but that … This literally happened with a friend the other day. I was really close with her when I was at my previous job and nothing happened. We just kind of lost touch. I mean, speaking of that, we weren’t physically seeing each other, so it was just harder to be friends.
But I thought of her for, hadn’t talked to her in probably 18 months, maybe longer. And I could actually see the last time we texted. And I just said, “Hey, thinking of you, I really hope you’re doing well.” And I think we might go get coffee. And so, it’s just like … But she could have also not responded, and that’s okay. I didn’t have any expectations of what that was going to be. I also … Maybe this is weird.
Anytime I dream about somebody, that’s also when I let them know. And I tried to not be like, “I dreamt about you last night,” because that’s weird. I phrase it, “You showed up in my dream last night,” because that’s a little less intense. But especially if I haven’t talked to somebody in a while and they show up in my dream, I’m just like, “Hey, saw you last night. You didn’t know it, but you’re in my dream. Hope you’re doing well.”
Or birthdays of random people I haven’t talked to in a while, but I’m like, “Oh, I remember it’s her birthday.” So yeah, I just love that. And I know that you do have to fight the, “Okay, we haven’t talked. Is this going to be awkward? Is this going to lead to something else?” And it doesn’t have to if you don’t want it to. It can just be like, “I’m thinking about you. I hope you’re doing well.”
Kasley Killam:
Absolutely. Exactly. And you mentioned the birthdays thing, and this is actually kind of a pet peeve of mine. Because it used to be that everyone was on Facebook 10 years ago. And so, we all got reminders.
Tori Dunlap:
Everybody knew their birthday.
Kasley Killam:
Right. But nowadays, at least in my circles, people aren’t on Facebook anymore.
Tori Dunlap:
No, you’ve got to remember.
Kasley Killam:
And so, one one knows each other’s birthdays. So this is-
Tori Dunlap:
I’ve missed so many peoples birthdays.
Kasley Killam:
… such an easy to be a better friend. Literally, just write everyone’s birthdays-
Tori Dunlap:
I write it in my calendar now.
Kasley Killam:
Yes, exactly. Put it on your calendar, make it recurring every year, and then you’re going to see it that day. It’s such an easy way to be a better friend. Wish them happy birthday. If you’re an amazing friend, send them a card or gift, but it doesn’t even have to be that. Just remembering is so meaningful.
Tori Dunlap:
Let’s talk about assessing our social health. How can we make manageable adjustments? There’s these five guiding principles. Talk to us about those.
Kasley Killam:
Okay. Yes. So if you want to understand and evaluate your social health, I walk through this three step process in chapter one of the book. And the first step is around just taking stock of where your social health comes from. So think about who are the people and the groups that you belong to that are actually your sources of connection on a day-to-day basis. And it sounds obvious, but we’re often not really kind of intentional about this, right?
We just take our relationships for granted or don’t put that much thought into our social circles. So there’s a worksheet in the book where you can kind of go through this systematically. But the first is just thinking about who are those one-on-one relationships, and then the broader communities where you are connecting on a regular basis. The second step is around assessing the strength of those relationships and communities.
So are they mutual and are they meaningful? So in a given friendship, or in a given community that you’re part of, does it feel like there’s a give and take and a reciprocity? And also like it’s really meaningful, right? So does it go beyond that surface level into something deeper where you actually feel connected in a way that’s really fulfilling to you?
Like, you have people who you can confide in and share experiences with on a deeper level. And then the third step is around identifying the strategy that you need going forward to optimize your social health. And these fall into four different strategies. And the analogy I like to use is with strengthening our physical muscles. We can stretch, we can rest our muscles in certain days, we can tone, we can flex them. And so, thinking about how do we exercise our social muscles?
So the first strategy is around stretching your social muscles. This is if you want more connection, if you take stock of your relationships and communities, and realize that you don’t have as many friends as you want. Or you are totally lacking a group that shares something in common with you. Or you just feel like you are wanting more, right? A lot of people do feel isolated or lonely. So if you’re thinking this through and realizing maybe there’s only one or two people who you can really reach out to, then your strategy in that case is to stretch your social muscles.
The second strategy is to rest. So we talked earlier about how sometimes we feel overwhelmed by social obligations, or by social media, or things like this. Or maybe we just have enough friends and relationships, we’re good, right? We’re already struggling to keep on top of the connections that we already have.
In that case, it’s about resting your social muscles. And this is important too, just like when we’re exercising our physical muscles. We need days in between workouts. We can’t just lift weights 24/7. You need to rest your muscles in order for them to get stronger. So that’s the second strategy. The third is to tone your social muscles. This is around deepening your relationships. So it might be that you kind of take stock and say, “Hey, I’ve got these really great friends. I get along well with my coworkers. I talk to my neighbors now and then, but I want to go deeper.”
Maybe we’re staying at kind of that surface level and I really want to connect in a more meaningful way. So that’s about toning your social muscles. And then the last final strategy is to flex. So just like we flex our physical muscles to show off, I’ve been doing CrossFit and Pilates, thank you very much. So I will flex for you. This is about sustaining your relationships and communities in the long term. So making sure that if you’ve got the right number of connections, and you’ve got the right depth, that’s meaningful to you. Now, it’s about sustaining that in the long term and making sure that those connections stay a priority for you overall.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that. And the very easy metaphor to track with physical health, like you said, with rest. Of like, yeah, you can’t be out here bench pressing every single day because it just won’t work.
Kasley Killam:
It won’t work. And you can’t socialize all the time.
Tori Dunlap:
You’ll burn out. You’ll get inured. Right, right.
Kasley Killam:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
My mentor, who’s like my second mom, and I, we call them jammy nights, which is just we’re very extroverted people typically. But also, I’ve realized I’m way more introverted than I gave myself credit for. And I need jammy nights. I need to sit and do nothing, and see nobody, or at least maybe just see my partner, but no sort of social commitment and just be by myself.
Kasley Killam:
Love that. I need that too. Probably more than you do because I’m an introvert. But yeah, I think that’s one of the myths people don’t realize, is that being socially healthy doesn’t mean you’re connecting all the time. It also means that you connect with yourself, and you have those jammy nights where you’re just giving yourself time and space to process everything and recharge your batteries. So that’s really important.
Tori Dunlap:
As we’re wrapping up, can you share one of the examples in the book on how communities have invested in social health?
Kasley Killam:
Yes. This is a great question. Which one shall I choose? So there’s two examples that I’ll share quickly, because I think they offer different perspectives. So one is in Paris where I spent two days with this group called the Super Neighbors. This is a bunch of people who banded together and said, “We are going to make our district, our neighborhood within Paris, the most connected place you can imagine. We are going to set up a table along the street where a thousand people can meet for a meal and get to know each other and break the ice. We are going to create WhatsApp groups for people to support each other and hang out around common interests. We’re going to set a goal of saying hello or Bonjour 50 times every day when we leave the house.” They just rallied around and it’s led by this wonderful person named Patrick.
And so I spent two days with this group in Paris, getting to know them all and understanding their approach to community building. And it’s one of the most inspiring examples I’ve seen. But it’s an example of just everyday people banding together saying, “I am going to make my community more connective, and I’m going to start changing the social norms. I’m going to smile and wave to my neighbors, and start making that something that we all do. And take initiative plan events to create opportunities for those deeper connections.” So that’s one example.
Another one in contrast is I also went while researching for the book to Barcelona, and met with the city council there because they decided that loneliness is a problem in their city that they want to eradicate.
So they are at the government level saying, “Okay, let’s fund different initiatives to change this. Let’s transform the third spaces so that they’re even more vibrant and more conducive to people connecting.” Although, if you’ve been to Barcelona, it’s pretty great already. But they’re saying, “Let’s make it even better.”
And they’re investing through policy and through programming in going from kind of the top down. So you have those two examples of, on one hand you have a government saying, This is a priority in our city, and we’re going to create the conditions for our citizens to be more meaningfully connected. And then you have that other example in Paris of where everyday people who are just doing this in their spare time because they care about it, are saying, “Let’s get together and improve the quality of our life for everyone here.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I saw a video the other day that was this new school concept they’re piloting of seniors paired with elementary school kids.
Kasley Killam:
I love this.
Tori Dunlap:
And I was just like, that’s so smart.
Kasley Killam:
It’s so smart.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s so smart.
Kasley Killam:
There’s one near you, I think.
Tori Dunlap:
Is it really? In Seattle?
Kasley Killam:
Yeah. There’s one where they have a preschool housed within a retirement home. And so, there’s opportunities for the little kids to interact with the older adults. And of course, the value is bi-directional, right? The young people benefit from it, the older people benefit from it. So it’s really beautiful.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m Googling it.
Kasley Killam:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Intergenerational Learning. Oh, it’s literally in Seattle. It’s literally Seattle. Intergenerational Learning Center. Yeah. It’s in West Seattle. Five days a week, the children/residents come together in a variety of planned activities such as music, dancing, art, lunch, storytelling, or just visiting.
Kasley Killam:
Isn’t that neat?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, I want to learn more about this. I didn’t know it was in my own city. This is just lovely.
Kasley Killam:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
The Atlantic in 2016, A Preschool Inside a Nursing Home.
Kasley Killam:
Isn’t that beautiful? I love that. But that should be the norm. Why not? It’s a beautiful example of two groups who can benefit from more meaningful connection coming together across ages. I love it. I want that for my future kids.
Tori Dunlap:
Kids. That’s so lovely. Your Paris example too. That’s how I know I’m about to start my period, because I’m really crying. I’m like, “That sounds so nice. A WhatsApp group, a thousand people saying, bonjour. That sounds lovely.” This was such a lovely … Speaking a lovely, lovely conversation. Thank you.
Kasley Killam:
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap:
I appreciate your love of Dune and Survivor as well. Thank you for that. Thank you for validating me. Where can people find your book? Where can people find out more about you?
Kasley Killam:
Yeah, so if you go to kasleykillam.com, That’s K-A-S-L-E-Y. Killam, K-I-L-L-A-M.com. It links to my book, it links to all kinds of other good resources. I have a newsletter that I share frequently all about social health. And it’s packed with lots of good tips and innovation in the space, and research insights, and things like that. I’m also at Kasley Killam on social media.
Tori Dunlap:
I literally have opened up a tab, and I’m signing up for your newsletter right now. So thank you. Thanks for being here. We really appreciate it.
Kasley Killam:
Thank you. This was so much fun.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much to Kasley for joining us. Make sure to check out her book, the Art and Science of Connection, why Social Health is the Missing Key to Living Longer, Healthier and Happier, which is out now. Thank you so much, as always, financial feminists for joining us. We hope you have a Kick-ass week, and we’ll talk to you later. Bye-bye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate Producer Tamisha Grant. Research by Arielle Johnson. Audio and Video Engineering by Alyssa Midcalf.
Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel, Amanda Leffew, Elizabeth McCumber, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Kailyn Sprinkle, Sasha Bonar, Claire Kurronen, Darrell Ann Ingman, and Jenell Riesner.
Promotional Graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf. And theme music by Jonah Cohen. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting this show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
