Hey, Financial Feminists! Today, we’re diving into a critical topic that affects not only our bodies but also our wallets — abortion. I’m joined by Kiki Freedman, co-founder and CEO of Hey Jane, the leading patient-centered, virtual reproductive and sexual health care clinic, to talk about the state of abortion access in the U.S., the financial impact it has on individuals and families, and the vital importance of bodily autonomy. We’ll debunk myths, answer your burning questions, and discuss how telemedicine abortion is changing the landscape of healthcare. Whether you’re pro-choice or navigating your own complex feelings on this topic, this conversation is essential listening as we approach another pivotal election season.
Key takeaways:
- Abortion as a financial issue: Abortion access is not just a feminist issue but a financial one. Many people seeking abortions are already parents, and being denied an abortion can lead to increased poverty and financial instability, including higher rates of bankruptcy and eviction.
- The role of telemedicine: With abortion access increasingly restricted, telemedicine has become a vital solution for reproductive care. Hey Jane offers an option to receive abortion pills via telemedicine, making it easier for those in states with limited access to healthcare.
- Debunking myths: Misinformation about abortion is rampant. Kiki dispels common myths, including the false beliefs that abortions cause breast cancer or infertility. She also clarifies the difference between Plan B (emergency contraception) and the abortion pill.
- Challenges for women-led businesses: Kiki shares the unique challenges of running a women-led healthcare company, including the sexism inherent in assumptions that it should be a nonprofit or that women’s healthcare needs are “niche.”
- Community and emotional support: Hey Jane’s services extend beyond medical care by offering emotional support through their patient community, “The Lounge,” where people can connect and share their experiences in a supportive, non-clinical space
Notable quotes
“Patients denied abortions are substantially more likely to end up in poverty. The financial consequences are similar to being evicted or losing your health insurance.”
“We hear stories of people protesting outside abortion clinics, only to bring their daughters in for care. The hypocrisy is undeniable.”
“As a business solving a critical problem for women, we often get asked, ‘Why aren’t you a nonprofit?’ The assumption that this work should be free is rooted in sexism.”
Episode at-a-glance
≫ 02:00 Guest Introduction: Kiki Friedman
≫ 04:49 The State of Abortion Access
≫ 05:59 Financial Implications of Abortion
≫ 09:36 Medical and Telemedicine Abortion
≫ 12:44 Misinformation and Legal Challenges
≫ 22:22 Emotional and Hormonal Aspects of Abortion
≫ 24:35 Normalizing the Conversation
≫ 26:50 Traveling for Care
≫ 28:18 Supporting Employees
≫ 29:18 Telemedicine and Insurance
≫ 32:28 Contraception and Reproductive Health
≫ 38:58 Running a Mission-Driven Business
Hey Jane’s Links:
Website: heyjane.com
IG: https://www.instagram.com/heyjanehealth/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@heyjanehealth
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Meet Kiki
Kiki Freedman is the co-founder and CEO of Hey Jane, which she founded while at Harvard Business School. Prior to business school, Kiki was an early employee at Uber, where she took on a variety of roles including launching Uber in Kenya, spearheading key operational initiatives on the company’s PRO team, and leading Strategy + Expansion for UberEats in the Middle East and Africa (MEA) region. She started her career as an Associate Consultant at Bain & Co, and graduated magna cum laude from Washington University with double majors in Economics and International Development.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
Quick content warning off the top, this episode discusses abortion.
Welcome back, Financial Feminists. Thank you for being here. Hello, welcome to the show. We’re talking about a fun topic today, which is terminating pregnancies and you’re like, “Doesn’t sound fun.” Super important because we believe in every single person’s bodily autonomy and the right to do what they want with their bodies. And abortion is a financial issue. That’s something that we really need to talk about because the vast majority of folks who get abortions already have children. So that tells us that not only is abortion a feminist issue, of course, it is also a financial one. So we’re going to talk about abortion today. And I know probably if you clicked on it, you’re ready to strap in, hopefully the people who saw the title and they’re like, “I don’t want to deal with this today,” have also not clicked, but maybe you have clicked and you didn’t read the title, please stay. This is a very, very important episode and especially as we get into an election season, honestly, this is an obligation to talk about. We have to talk about these sorts of issues.
So we’re talking about abortion of course, but we also need to talk about that. This study found that women who were turned away from an abortion and went on to give birth were more likely to live in poverty. 72% of the women who do not receive a wanted abortion lived in poverty after five years, which is much higher than the 55% living in poverty who did. They were more likely to not be able to afford basic living expenses like housing, food, and transportation. They were more likely to be in debt. They had lower credit scores and 81% saw an increase in reports of bankruptcy, eviction, and tax issues. So again, this is a feminist issue. We’d talk about it even if it wasn’t a financial issue, but it’s actually more of a financial issue, I would argue because the right to make decisions over our health and bodies is so important. But there’s a lot of misinformation surrounding abortion, both in the practical sense of what it is and what the current laws are around accessing safe and legal abortion services, but also how safe it truly is. If you’ve ever wondered about the difference between an in-office procedure versus abortion pills and if one’s less or more effective or if one’s safe, or talking about all of that today with our guest Kiki Freedman.
Kiki Freedman is the co-founder and CEO of Hey Jane, which she founded while at Harvard Business School. Prior to business school, Kiki was an early employee at Uber where she took on a variety of roles, including launching Uber in Kenya, spearheading key operational initiatives on the company’s pro team and leading strategy and expansion for Uber Eats in the Middle East and Africa region.
She started her career as an associate consultant at Bain & Co and graduated magna cum laude from Washington University with double majors in econ and international development. We’re talking today about the biggest and most pervasiveness around abortion, what the abortion pill actually is and what that process is like. We also talk about in-clinic abortions and what that process is like, and she answered important questions about what to do if you’re in a state that does not offer abortion access, if it’s safe to bill insurance, how to travel across state lines and more.
Again, an important episode today. This is part of our responsibility to talk about these sort of issues and please share this episode widely. This sort of disinformation around abortion is not an accident. It’s meant to keep people feeling intimidated by this and scared and not accessing necessary healthcare that they need. So please share this episode with your friends and family, and without further ado, let’s go ahead and get into it.
But first a word from our sponsors.
Kiki Freedman:
My millennial green couch.
Tori Dunlap:
I have a friend who is not bisexual but had the green bisexual couch. Do you know about this?
Kiki Freedman:
Yeah. I sure do.
Tori Dunlap:
And he was like, “Not because I’m insecure with my sexuality, but I just don’t like this couch.” And he got rid of it and it was very funny. I kept giving him shit. I said this offline before we joined, but I carried your tote everywhere through Europe last summer, and it says, “Not afraid to talk about abortion,” and I got some funny looks, but who the fuck cares? And I want to do it again except I am going to Italy this year and I feel like that will go over worse.
Kiki Freedman:
Might as well see how it goes.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep, most definitely. We’re thrilled to have you on the show. Am I going to cry this early? I am so deeply supportive of your work and it’s so necessary and it’s so hard, but it’s so important. And so talk to us where are we at with abortion? What is the state of abortion access to it? And specifically talk to me about the abortion pill. What’s going on?
Kiki Freedman:
Yeah, where to begin. Obviously it has been quite a few years. I think the headline of where we stand today is that for the most part, abortion access is as bad as it’s ever been. We know it is illegal in 19 states and counting. People are needing to travel hundreds of miles, walk through protestors, spend hundreds of dollars, which is something we can talk about as well is relevant to this podcast just to get care that is absolutely essential. We know it’s very common, one in four women and people with uterus will get one in their lives, and so it’s a pretty dire state. I do think, on a slightly more optimistic side though, that medication abortion and telemedicine in abortion in particular have been changing the dynamic relative to times in the past where we’ve been in similar states of prohibition in the country. We are able to get people the care they need via technology and via these really safe and effective medications.
Tori Dunlap:
One of the things you talked about, and I just want to dive right in because of course we talk about more things than money. In the show we talk about feminist issues, but abortion is a financial issue. Yet no one talks about it like it is and the average person getting an abortion is not getting pregnant for the first time. They already have children, and I wish more people understood that. That tells me it’s a financial issue. That tells me it is a resource issue that tells me it is a “I am good with the amount of children I have. I don’t have more resources to have more children. So let’s say we have two children, we bring a third into the world that we were not planning for. Well now we’re not dividing resources in half, we’re dividing resources in thirds.”
And yet the very people who are saying “abortion isn’t a right” and trying to outlaw it are also the people who are saying, we’re the economic party. We care about people’s bottom lines and their ability to start businesses or to support themselves, and these two are diametrically opposed. So I think that one, let’s talk about the actual cost of care and then two, let’s talk about, okay, if abortion is not an option for us, what is the financial cost of having a child that we can’t support?
Kiki Freedman:
Absolutely. I think it is so important to frame it that way. What we do know is that about 75% of abortion patients are low income. It’s often correlated with not having great access to primary healthcare to begin with. And as you said about half are already parents. So for parents, but really everyone, is a matter of folks deciding how they need to best allocate their own resources and make those decisions for themselves. I think you’re also spot on in how you framed the sort of tension and hypocrisy that comes from these bans as it relates to fiscal conservatism. We know that people denied abortions are substantially more likely to end up in poverty.
The effect of being denied an abortion on unpaid bills is similar to being evicted, similar to being cut off from your health insurance and you end up substantially more likely to rely on public benefits, which I certainly think should be available. But to your point in terms of the political agendas framed up by these folks is certainly inconsistent. Right now we see that the average cost of an abortion is $550. It’s expensive. Most people need to borrow money in order to receive treatment if they’re unable to get it covered by insurance or through a lower cost provider like Hey Jane. So abortion is in so many complex and really important ways interwoven with money, and so very happy to be able to have this discussion with you in that lens.
Tori Dunlap:
And that’s just the procedure. That’s not including travel accommodations if you have to do so, any sort of time off work, let’s talk about that. Okay, I have to get time off work to have this procedure. If you do not have PTO, if you’re an hourly worker, if you don’t have a flexible leave policy, if you don’t have sick leave, what are you having to do to not only get the procedure but potentially take some time to recover both emotionally and physically? So that’s $500 just for the procedure.
Kiki Freedman:
Yes, that’s exactly right. Patients are often incurring hundreds of dollars in these additional costs, and like you said, due to potentially inflexible time off policies, they can be very burdensome to miss work that is just direct money taken out of your pocket if you didn’t work those hours paying for child care for the reasons that you mentioned before, travel overnight stays, all of these things can add substantial costs, which would not be covered by insurance. Even in a best case scenario, with something like telemedicine, we are able to help the patients do it on their own schedule, get the medications delivered to their home and really help them mitigate a lot of those expenses.
Tori Dunlap:
Also, for any listeners wondering why I’m coming in hot immediately, we had a whole discussion before we jumped on. My energy, I am at a 12. I am like burn it down. Usually I ramp up through the episode, but I started at a 12.
Kiki Freedman:
I love it, I’m here for it.
Tori Dunlap:
So we’re just diving right in. One thing, I mean that I think is more serious and that’s why I wanted to give the 12 disclaimer before I talk about this. A lot of people who get abortions are not what we might classify as traditional abortions. And my mom, for example, had a ectopic pregnancy, and that is when your egg gets stuck in a fallopian tube and it’s already already been fertilized and starts to grow. And if they did not catch it in time, probably given one more day, she would’ve died. So technically they call that an abortion because it’s not a viable pregnancy and it threatens the life of a mother. Yet there are multiple states that are trying to overturn all abortion, even when it threatens the life of a mother. And because I have a personal connection with this, I will say, one, this happened before I was born, so if my mom had passed away, I wouldn’t be here, my mom wouldn’t be here. All of the types of abortion that we might not think about just besides, I don’t want to carry out this pregnancy.
Kiki Freedman:
Yeah, I think that’s such a fantastic question. Like I said, we know abortion is incredibly common. One in four people will have one, right? And I think the media really likes to amplify the stories that maybe they think will have the most severe emotional impact or almost make the patient seem the least accountable because it was a result of a really horrendous situation like rape or incest. But people are making these decisions for such a variety of reasons, all of which a hundred percent valid. It may be that they’re in school, that they may not be able to afford it based off the children that they have. And of course there may be very serious medical contraindications that would make it unsafe for them to continue with that pregnancy or make it just physically impossible in the case of an ectopic.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, so I think that again, we’re talking regardless of your choice, you’re allowed to choose, but then specifically there’s abortions that we’re talking about that actually have nothing to do with choice. It is if I’m choosing my life and this pregnancy is no longer viable, that is your healthcare option. It’s literal healthcare. Yet that is looking to be overturned in multiple areas.
Kiki Freedman:
That’s true. But I really would say it’s healthcare in all choices. We think all of these reasons are very completely… I know you agree, but yes, I think the context in which people are making these decisions are so much broader than a lot of the people trying to take it away might make it out to seem.
Tori Dunlap:
So, I mean in that related field, what is some of the worst misinformation that is getting spread about abortion and abortion access right now?
Kiki Freedman:
Okay, where to begin in with this one? I think there’s a few buckets that we’re seeing. I would talk about some in terms of the health side, these we’ve seen around for a while, and then I think there’s this whole new category of legal misinformation being circulated to freak people out into thinking they may not be able to get care even when they can. So on the health and safety side, there’s these rumors that anti-choice folks have been circulating forever, that abortions increase the likelihood of breast cancer, that they might make it so you can’t get pregnant again in the future. These are completely untrue. There is nothing backing them up whatsoever, and they really do need to just be put to rest.
Within that bucket, I would also say one of the biggest bits of misunderstanding is not misinformation, but the lack of information. We still see that only about one in three people know the abortion pill exists. We hear people asking all the time, “Oh, is this Plan B? It is not. It is a totally different medication, it’s approved to 11 weeks of unwanted pregnancy in the US, incredibly safe and effective, been FDA approved since the year 2000 and now more than half of all abortions in the country are done with these pills. So we want to make sure everyone knows that these exist, they’re safe, they’re effective, and you could get them in person or through telemedicine.
In that separate category, I think there’s been this really effective campaign, frankly, from the anti-choice side of just barraging us with these legal campaigns, whether it be through litigation, regulation, legislation, ballot initiatives, whatever it might be. And in many instances, they, again, make people feel things aren’t available when they are. So medication abortion is still federally available despite this recent pretty spurious court case. It’s unavailable, unfortunately, in a number of states, but still available at a federal level. And so folks should really understand what their rights are on a state-by-state level.
Tori Dunlap:
Outside of abortion, what other services are under attack right now by current laws as it relates to sexual or women’s health?
Kiki Freedman:
Yeah, okay. There’s two things I’d love to talk about there. So one is Project 2025, don’t know if you’ve had a chance to skim it yet.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep.
Kiki Freedman:
Horrifying.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, yep. Yes.
Kiki Freedman:
So they do pretty explicitly call out ella which is a form of emergency contraception as something that they would like to see go away. I have a suspicion that they will start classifying IUDs in a similar bucket because technically they can be used to prevent implantation, may cause an abortion, but essentially in the same way that… It’s a stretch. These are an incredibly effective and safe and just convenient means of contraception, and it does seem like they’ll be under attack next if you ask me to speculate.
I also think people should have this thing called the Comstock Law on their radar. I could give some context on this. This was a law that’s been on the books since the late 1800s written by a guy named Comstock who moved to the big city, in New York and was just outraged by all of the lewd and lascivious materials that he was seeing around. He was able to pass a law that has never been enforced, I will add, that prohibits the use of the US mails, which includes FedEx and UPS in addition to USPS any profane or obscene material, which technically might include anything that has a curse word on it, but also any instrument that could be used to cause an abortion. So of course abortion pills would be affected by this, but we’re also talking like rubber gloves, truly anything that may be used to assist with an abortion.
It is one of the broadest and just completely outrageous laws that exist on the books. And just because it’s never been enforced, people have turned their eye away from it for centuries, and now it started to poke its head up. We saw it come up in recent Supreme Court hearings, and I think it’s something we’re going to start hearing a lot more about.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know if you saw, it was just rage.
Kiki Freedman:
Working in the space, you consistently feel like it can’t get worse,-
Tori Dunlap:
And then it does?
Kiki Freedman:
And then it kind of does. I do like to put positive spins where I can, it’s not too late. This one is a legislation. It can be overturned. I think we need to see, of course, substantial political action towards it, but it’s time to really confront this one head on because if not, it could be very heavily weaponized in a future administration.
Tori Dunlap:
It just makes me so mad. Okay. I have so many questions about the abortion pill, and I know we want to debunk some things here too. You were already saying abortion pill versus Plan B. Plan B helps prevent pregnancy, abortion pill terminates pregnancy. Anything else to add there?
Kiki Freedman:
That’s exactly right. So for emergency contraception, used for a few days after unprotected sex, the abortion pill up to 11 weeks into unintended pregnancy, both very safe, very effective.
Tori Dunlap:
So I have not had an abortion. I am not going to lie to you. There’s something about the of it where I feel like, okay, I would need to go see somebody and I would want a medical abortion versus, I don’t know what that experience would be like trying to handle that myself in my own house, in my bathroom.
Kiki Freedman:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
So what is the difference? You’re saying it’s safe. I completely believe you, but what is the experience of an abortion pill versus an in-clinic abortion?
Kiki Freedman:
Yeah, great question. And I’ll start by saying there are a number of options available. Procedural, you could get the medication in a clinic or at home. All great options. Our goal with Hey Jane is just to give folks another choice and how they might access that care. And some people do want that in-person interaction.
With Hey Jane, you’re able to complete your medical intake online 24/7. So it’s super convenient, especially if you do need to do it after your job, once your kids are asleep, on your own schedule. We’re able to mail the medications directly to you. That could be to your doorstep. That could be to a pickup point, wherever is convenient. Again, particularly useful for folks who may need to otherwise travel very long distances to reach a clinic or who just don’t have easy access to transportation, even if the clinic is closer by.
From there on out, and one thing that I do think is a common misperception about telemedicine abortion is you have access to on-demand support at any time. Before, during, or after your treatment, you can message our team with any clinical questions that might come up or for emotional support, if you just want to feel like you have a friend with their hand on your shoulder throughout. With Hey Jane, you also get access to this really beautiful community called the Lounge. It’s verified Hey Jane patients where folks can connect in a sort of non-clinical setting to other people going through the same thing at the same time. Really normalizing, really validating patients, find it just incredibly comforting. So I think there could be a perception that doing it at home, you may feel less supported. I would argue that in many ways you’re able to feel much more supported because you have so many resources available at your fingertips at any time throughout.
Tori Dunlap:
So what is the actual difference in procedure? Can we talk about that?
Kiki Freedman:
Sure.
Tori Dunlap:
How does this work in terms of, again, I’ve never had an abortion and I want to de-stigmatize it as much as possible. So if you’re in clinic, what happens? How much blood is there? Talk me through that and then what is the difference with something like Hey Jane?
Kiki Freedman:
Totally. Okay. So in a clinic, you could either do a procedural abortion, which I think what most people think of when they think of an abortion, or you could get the medications there too and take them at home. For the procedural, there are a few ways it could go. You can get anesthesia so that you could just be unconscious during it. You go to sleep and you wake up and it’s done. Or for cost reasons or whatever other reason, you don’t have to. And that will involve a procedure which they go and physically remove the pregnancy from your body with the clinic. Super safe, very effective and fast.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, sort of. Are they cutting anything open?
Kiki Freedman:
They will not be cutting anything open. No. They’ll go in through your cervix.
Tori Dunlap:
I just know I have my own secret questions that I’ve never been able to ask, and then I also, I’ve talked to friends who have had it, but it’s something about I want to know. And then I imagine listeners who maybe don’t know people or haven’t had an experience, if you ever have, I want you to be able to make the choice not being scared. So you’re saying in surgery, okay, pregnancy is removed. Can you get up and walk after?
Kiki Freedman:
Oh, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Can you carry on with your day?
Kiki Freedman:
Totally. So you can, you’ll hang out a waiting room for a bit, you’ll recover, but then you’re totally fine. I think more people used to refer to a surgical abortion, and that did freak people out and give sort of an accurate perception of you’re in recovery for days. It’s a procedure you’re walking out of there just fine, for sure.
For the medications, the way it works is you’ll take the first set of medications and those will essentially end hormonal supply to the pregnancy to terminate the pregnancy, and then it just loosens it from your uterus. And then you’ll take another set of medications that cause uterine contractions, almost identical to a natural miscarriage to remove the pregnancy from your body. And so you could do that all again at home. It’ll feel often like a heavy period, and that varies from person to person, to allow for people to manage their expectations. For some people it’s painless. For others it can be quite uncomfortable, quite heavy cramping. And you’ll experience bleeding as part of that process.
Tori Dunlap:
So obviously you’re adapting or you’re changing the hormones. What is the emotional to take the choice of the abortion outside of it, but literally the hormonal emotional consequences of that? How are you feeling? Is there a recovery period, less physical but more hormonal? Do you understand what I’m trying to-
Kiki Freedman:
I do.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m not being very clear.
Kiki Freedman:
No, you totally are. That absolutely makes sense. And it’s an interesting question to answer because abortion has so much for many people, social stigma applied to it as well. That’s also causing various reactions. On the hormonal side though, I do think that’s worth paying attention to. Pregnancy causes a lot of hormones, and so you will be experiencing some of those ups and downs, but they’ll subside. You do still have pregnancy hormone in your body for a few weeks after. We always caution people don’t take the pregnancy test the day after. It will still come up positive. It takes about four weeks to clear. So that is something that folks should prepare to experience. And again, that’s why we think it’s so important to have that emotional care on demand for people to turn to should they need it.
I’ll also add, because this is common, I think this is an important experience to shout out to. A lot of people, they’re like, “I felt guilty that I didn’t feel guilty. I felt guilty that I didn’t have stronger emotions.” And so I also want to say, if you were not having that strong emotional reaction, like A-okay, as well and very normal.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. You’re bringing it up, so I was going to wait a little bit, but I do feel like there is so much, of course social stigma, but then also the emotions about it. I grew up Catholic. I have my own religious fun stuff about it. I think I’ve always… Well, I shouldn’t say always. I think in college I was definitely like, “Okay, women’s right to choose 100%.” But I think that there’s just so much stigma around it, and I think it can be very scary to say out loud both to yourself, to a partner, to family. I have a friend who’s been a previous guest on the show, Kelsey Dara, who literally just posted last week multiple stories where “I got an abortion and I’m just going to talk about it,” which I was so thrilled for her. And also to your point, I think there’s people who feel guilty that they don’t feel worse. So I don’t know, maybe can we touch just briefly on the emotional side of that and I don’t know, just allowing people to feel a little less alone.
Kiki Freedman:
Definitely. I think, and I feel like I sound like a broken record, but one of the things we do find to be most supportive to our patients is just reminding them how normal it is.As you were saying, it’s something that people aren’t talking about. So when I tell people that one in four stat, they are minds are blown, they’re like, “I had no idea it was so common,” and I think to feel how normal it is can be incredibly powerful.
The other thing that I always just try to touch on is the range of emotions. It can be so varied. People are coming to this with very different personal backgrounds based off how they were brought up, the cultural settings in which they were raised, and then also the experience in which they had to receive care. Someone getting care directly to their home in a comfortable space is going to have a much different experience than someone who maybe needs to travel across state lines in order to receive it is having legal oriented anxiety throughout. So I think the most important thing people can do is just give themselves grace and accept and acknowledge whatever comes, and then use whatever resources available to help process it. That could be through Hey Jane but there’s a number of other really wonderful organizations that offer support as well.
Tori Dunlap:
I also want to say as, hopefully somebody you feel like and trust, dear listener, if you are allowing patriarchy to make decision for you because you feel shame, don’t. Make the decision that’s right for you and for your future and for your life. Not because society is trying to control you, because every single decision women make ultimately is in some way weaponized or in some way shamed. So ultimately you need to make the decision that is right for you and your future, not what the patriarchy is telling you to do.
Kiki Freedman:
Preach. And one story that actually does remind me of is even the patriarchy isn’t following their own rules. We hear stories constantly from our providers that used to work at in-person clinics, these people standing outside with signs protesting every day for years, bringing in their daughter when they need an abortion, going right back out to the picket lines the next day. But for them, it was an exception. People recognize that this is an essential decision people need to make for themselves and sometimes just don’t have the generosity to grant that grace to others.
Tori Dunlap:
You mentioned traveling state lines and I feel like we need to spend some time talking about that. They’re trying to criminalize folks that are traveling because there’s no abortion clinics or there’s no access in that state. So what can we do to support people in states where abortion access is limited or where they’re potentially being stopped from leaving the state to get this necessary care?
Kiki Freedman:
So there have been a number of states who have attempted to limit interstate travel. None of them are legally viable. It is important for everyone to know that they can travel across the line to get care. Our government allows that. It’s not possible currently for them to prohibit it. That said, it’s extremely costly. It’s not an option for everybody. So I think in order to preserve access, of course number one thing has vote. There is a bill that’s been getting kicked around for a long time called the Women’s Health Protection Act that would implement federal protections for abortion care. It’s feeling like more and more of a long shot, but I think we should continue to strive for that.
On a more local level, donating to abortion funds that help people access that logistical assistance when they need it, I think is one of the more powerful things that you could do. Not just helping people receive the care once they’re at a clinic, but more and more reaching that clinic is important. And then, again, just spreading the word on telemedicine abortion. It is a way for people in these states to get treatment more easily, often either by limiting the distance they need to travel into another state or there are providers who will send directly. So I think getting that information out there is critical.
Tori Dunlap:
There’s also some workplaces that are rolling out abortion travel benefits. Do you have tips for business owners, entrepreneurs, and states with some of these restrictions on how to implement these benefits and help their employees out in a way that the government’s really failing to?
Kiki Freedman:
Yeah, I love these benefits. I think it’s a really great help. I think it doesn’t go quite far enough. We need to make sure that people are able to get care once they’ve reached these states. The states that are still providing care are getting totally inundated. They’re unable to meet the level of demand, and we’re often hearing about wait times and clinics of two to three weeks. So being able to offer supplemental support through alternative providers, I think is key. That could be through Hey Jane or another, but being able to make sure people can get that care quickly and easily once they arrive in the state is huge. The other big consideration for those is just making sure that employees can maintain their privacy while using those benefits. We’ve heard that come up a lot as sort of a practical consideration. I think there are some really great ways to do it as long as it’s something on people’s minds.
Tori Dunlap:
I would love to spend some time specifically talking about Hey Jane. Where are you available? And if I’m not in one of those states, can I still order abortion pills sent to my home?
Kiki Freedman:
Yes. So we’re live in 20 states plus DC, so we cover the vast majority of the US population now. We’re able to mail medication within those states. So we are able to treat you if you are a resident of another state, but you do need to be physically present in that state to receive the medication. However, we do find, especially, I founded Hey Jane, based off an experience living in Missouri in St. Louis, which borders sort of straddles that Missouri-Illinois line. So we can often make it easy to just sort of pop over that state boundary in order to receive care legally as opposed to needing to travel deeper into a state to potentially reach a clinic.
Tori Dunlap:
This is obviously more of a logistic question. Do I get a hotel room? Do I get it at a post office and pick it up? Where should I go if it’s not available in my state, where should I have it sent?
Kiki Freedman:
So right now, I think the easiest thing to do is to get it sent to just a post office counter. You don’t need to worry about registering for a PO box. You could just go and pick it up there with your ID. Soon we’ll be able to allow for pick up at pharmacies. CVS and Walgreens are now rolling out, for the first time ever dispensing of Mifepristone, the abortion bill, which is great. And so that will be, I think, a really convenient option for across two travelers.
Tori Dunlap:
The other thing I love about y’all is you’re the only telemedicine abortion care provider that accepts insurance, which is obviously incredibly important for financial accessibility. Why can’t, or don’t, more accept insurance and how can you work with people who maybe don’t have insurance?
Kiki Freedman:
Yeah, so I think the short answer is just that insurance is really hard. We’ve had to invest a ton in getting the operations there, the contracts into place. It is just a heavy lift, and we felt that it was really important to invest in early, and we’re really proud of the progress that we’ve been able to make there, I think, and hope that we’ll see others follow suit. We do also offer treatment to patients who don’t have insurance. We offer lower than in clinic rates, typically about half of the price of an in-person clinic treatment. Everything is based on a sliding scale. And we also partner with these really wonderful abortion funds in all of our states who can offer further assistance to those who need it.
Tori Dunlap:
Is it safe to file an insurance claim for hey Jane services if you don’t live in a state where reproductive healthcare is protected or is it just safer to pay out of pocket?
Kiki Freedman:
The states that we are in for the most part, have these really wonderful protections in place called shield laws. And what those do, at a minimum, is they say if you travel from another state to receive care there, essentially if that state tries to come after you or the provider for whatever reason, the friendly state will not be able to support that investigation, won’t be able to share any data. So it’s a fairly nuanced question that you’re asking, but I think looking into these shield laws and the degree to which they apply in a given state should provide a good amount of comfort.
Tori Dunlap:
We’ve talked a bit about contraception. I think, again, the hypocrisy is there too. Anybody you listening to this show has probably heard this metaphor of course, but the very people who are saying that they don’t want an option to choose or also trying to take away the thing that would prevent abortion, which is contraception and access to it. What are the best resources for people looking for healthcare, looking for contraception that may not be able to afford it or who are not insured?
Kiki Freedman:
Yeah, great question. So shout out to Planned Parenthood always offering fantastic services there.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Kiki Freedman:
Public federally qualified health clinics in general offer really great services to those who need it. And at Hey Jane we do also offer birth control prescriptions, contraceptive counseling, and can accept a range of insurance with Medicaid coming soon.
Tori Dunlap:
I also know that you offer treatment for STDs and for yeast infections as well. Is that true?
Kiki Freedman:
We do. Your yeast infections, your UTIs come our way. We’ll get you super non-judgmental care, get it covered by your insurance. Make it super easy. No waiting in that urgent care waiting room.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, me studying abroad had a chronic yeast infection that would not go away. Did not know what it was because no one had told me.
Kiki Freedman:
Me too.
Tori Dunlap:
What is it about studying abroad? Where were you?
Kiki Freedman:
That’s so funny. I was working abroad. I was in South Africa.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, I was in Ireland and then had traveled to Paris with my partner at the time and everything was falling apart down there. And I was like, what is happening? And then we were staying with one of his family friends and after six days she’s like, “Oh, you have a yeast infection.” I was like, “Is that what it is?” And then…. It’s so funny though, no one told me. No one told me what the experience was like.
Kiki Freedman:
No one told me. Nope, nope. And I couldn’t get over the counter… Oh my God. I won’t go into it, but-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh no, I kind of want to hear the story. Couldn’t get over the counter stuff? So you had to get a prescription? Was it a whole thing?
Kiki Freedman:
No, over the counter, have to go to the… They don’t do pills. It ended up being an iodine douche.
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely not. No, no sir. No ma’am. No, thank you.
Kiki Freedman:
There was something grossly satisfying about it. I’m not going to lie.
Tori Dunlap:
No, I get that.
Kiki Freedman:
But I was happy to get the pills.
Tori Dunlap:
Very different, but I just ruptured my eardrum a couple months ago, and so they had all the… Skip forward about 30 seconds, if you don’t want to hear this. They had to kit a vacuum in and suck it all out. And I don’t know how the doctor knew. He did not ask me, “Do you want to see it?” “I’ll throw it away.”He was just like, “Here.” Suck it all out. And was like, “Here’s what came out of your ear.” And it just looked like chewed up gum. It was black and disgusting, and it was the most satisfying thing I’ve ever experienced in my entire life. I was like, “Get in there, suck it all out, and then show me.”
Kiki Freedman:
I love the YouTube videos of the wax removal. Very satisfying.
Tori Dunlap:
I used to think pimple popping was disgusting. And then I had enough videos show up on my TikTok and I was like, “Oh, I will sit here for three minutes while you use your little tool to get everything out.”
Kiki Freedman:
Dig it out.
Tori Dunlap:
Anyway, very, very validating.
With contraception. We have a lot of laws of course, trying to get rid of that too. What’s currently on ballots? What is the Supreme Court doing? Give us an update on all of that.
Kiki Freedman:
Yes. Okay. So for ballots, I could speak more to the abortion side of things because I think that’s what we’re primarily seeing on the ballots this time around.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Kiki Freedman:
Florida and a number of other really critical states have ballot initiatives. One of the other very positive things from the last few years is that every single time ballot initiative related to abortion has been put up for a vote. It has always gone the pro-choice way. Let’s keep that going. There are some really important initiatives on the ballot this time around, and I think that they’ll be tremendously powerful. I also am hoping it’ll help with turnout for a ballot, we need to make broader changes than this.
Tori Dunlap:
Also, when we talk about healthcare and especially around just gender care in general, we have of course gender-affirming care that’s also been under attack. Are there any signs of like, Hey Jane-esque companies or organizations that can provide gender-affirming care to people who need it in states where it is under attack right now?
Kiki Freedman:
Yes. There’s some really great work being done there, and it has been interesting to see how folks trying to push against that have used the anti-abortion playbook to a tee. But we really like Plume and [inaudible 00:36:43]. They’re doing really great work for gender-affirming care via telemedicine and I think opening up a lot of doors for access.
Tori Dunlap:
Cool. We can link both of those too. In additionally to Hey Jane. Any other common questions that people often want to know about reproductive health or any myths you want to debunk?
Kiki Freedman:
I think we covered a lot of it. I think the big ones we get are is this the same as Plan B? It is not. Is this safe? Yes. Is it effective? Yes. Will it prevent pregnancy in the future and breast cancer? And all of those are total myths.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, I have another question. I forgot about this one. If I am worried that abortion will not be allowed in my state anymore, should I go to Hey Jane and buy 15 abortion pills for myself and for my friends?
Kiki Freedman:
So, okay. We recently put up a blog post about this, I think, and maybe I’ll just refer to that. There’s essentially not a bad idea, but the medications have some storage recs and they expire and become less effective at some point. So I’ll link to that for the details.
Tori Dunlap:
So it probably is pretty obvious how we can support the kind of laws we want to see. Voting, calling legislators, anything else top of mind to be able to support this necessary healthcare?
Kiki Freedman:
Yes, so you’ve covered the basics for sure. I might actually refer to, we have something called the Unwhispered Network that is our mailing list, and we’re constantly sending out really amazing advocacy updates, ways to engage with the issue. I think the most important thing we could do as people who are engaged is get the word out to our friends, make sure that they’re informed and that everyone knows the types of things that they should have on their radar, that they should be voting for. And we put together some really great resource kits for that. So check that at our website, heyjane.com.
Tori Dunlap:
Would also just say at an individual level, if you are willing to talk openly, not necessarily on the internet, but talk openly about previous healthcare experiences with your friends, I know that that has helped validate any future healthcare decisions I make, as well as just the maybe spoken or unspoken, “Hey, I’m going to be here for you, whatever you might need in the future, if you need a ride, if you need me to bring you water and bed, if you need emotional support.” I think that that is something we can all do at the individual level that is very, very impactful for our friends and for our family.
I love that you brought up that you wanted to talk about this. There is a misconception or some sort of belief, I think, for a lot of women owned businesses that especially have a certain value statement or a certain mission that because we care about this so much, we should do it for free, or we should be a nonprofit. We are both not nonprofits and frankly, I’m proud of that. I want to be able to lead by example and say, “Okay, we’re going to teach you how to get rich, and in doing so, I’m also going to charge what I’m worth for my services.” Let’s talk about the experience of running a company as a woman that has a certain value statement and mission statement while also not being a nonprofit.
Kiki Freedman:
Totally. This is something that I have found fascinating and maybe more surprising than I should have, but as we’ve gone through our fundraising journey and just built the company as a whole, we do often get asked, “Why didn’t you make this a nonprofit?” And it’s a puzzling question because it’s a really good business solving a really important problem that’s performing well as a business. And the implications in there I think are really worth dissecting and breaking apart, as you said, is this work that is expected to be done for free because it’s solving women’s problems? And if so, is that something we really want to accept? Is it because we have some guilt about profiting off of solutions to certain problems and not others? I think that’s also really interesting. And in general, something we’ve also observed is, particularly, and I think this is shifting, but among women investors, is that they leaned historically more towards solving these problems with philanthropy. And there does really seem to be this guilt about investing in business rooted solutions to the same problems that they acknowledge as being really important to solve.
And I really, I’m seeing folks beginning to challenge that now. Some of our investors are doing incredible work making strides, pushing against those considerations, but it’s something that does deeply bother me and confuse me. And I’m just grateful for podcasts like yours where people are calling this out and naming it so that people can really consider what’s embedded in all of those questions.
Tori Dunlap:
I mean, yeah, let’s call it what it is. It’s sexism for its women founders, and it’s also sexism for its clientele, which are women largely, and people with uteruses. That’s what we’re talking about, which is, if you really cared about this, it should be a nonprofit. You shouldn’t charge people for it. And also, by the way, again, they take insurance, okay? And then it’s also, “Oh, which I invest in a lot of women owned and women focused businesses,” and that’s a lot of the narrative too, which is like, “Oh, but your clientele’s women, so that’s not big enough.”
Kiki Freedman:
It’s niche.
Tori Dunlap:
Right? It’s a niche topic. It’s a niche need. And I’m like, “You have never said that about any tech company aimed at men ever.”
Kiki Freedman:
No. Something that affects more than half of the population, more than 60% of healthcare spend is niche because it hasn’t affected them personally.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. And of course that a lot of the fundraising money, to your point about affecting them personally, is coming from men who don’t have to think about this and don’t have to deal with it until they’re the ones who are getting partners pregnant. Patriarchy. We love it. Anything else to add there? I mean, how can we support? I think it’s obviously supporting, Hey Jane’s work and everything y’all are doing. Anything else, especially any advice to women who are experiencing this, trying to raise money for their companies or trying to grow a company that people are saying is niche?
Kiki Freedman:
My gosh. Surround yourself with other powerful people that you trust. Probably other people who have gone through similar things under underrepresented founders. And keep fighting as long as you can because the more we all put forward together, it does really lift things up for those who will come next. And that’s what I try to tell myself.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, we talked a lot about this show and in my work of the guilt that women feel about making money. And I think that’s definitely another thing. Another part of this is that we demonize women for pursuing money, yet we worship men for the pursuit of money. And it’s not a bad thing to make money. Money is inherently neutral. It’s got no moral value. What you do with it, I think is where the morality comes in. So you running a business that is necessary and important and making some money doing it is not morally corrupt.
Thank you for your work. I am so excited to carry my tote around Europe this summer. Where can people find out more about, Hey Jane, your services, all of that plug away.
Kiki Freedman:
Awesome. Check us out, heyjane.com. And then we’re @heyjanehealth on TikTok and Instagram.
Tori Dunlap:
Amazing. Thank you for taking something that affects so many people and especially so many women, and destigmatizing it. And again, if you find yourself debating whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, this is healthcare, this is your future. And yeah, folks like Kiki and folks at Hey Jane can help. So I love that and appreciate you.
Kiki Freedman:
Thank you so much for the time, Tori.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much to Kiki for joining us. You can access everything. Hey Jane offers at heyjane.com, including abortion pills, STI testing, all sorts of reproductive health over at heyjane.com.
Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for your support of these, sometimes difficult but super necessary topics. Money is taboo, women’s health is taboo, but we’re looking to change the stigma every single day we’re doing our work. So thanks for being here. Thanks for being Financial Feminists, and we’ll talk to you very soon.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant, research by Sarah Sciortino, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf, marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First $100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Sasha Bonnar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Kurronen, Daryl Ann Ingram, and Meghan Walker, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound.
A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
