Welcome back Financial Feminists! I’m so excited to bring you this special episode recorded live in my hometown of Seattle with Nick and Jack from “The Best One Yet” podcast. We dive deep into the nitty-gritty of personal finance, from setting achievable financial goals to negotiating your worth and maximizing your investments. Trust me, you don’t want to miss the hacks I share—like how I save thousands each year just by negotiating my bills and snagging free hotel upgrades. Plus, we tackle the big questions around tax-advantaged accounts and why I think crypto might just be a scam.
Key takeaways:
- Set specific, timely goals with a purpose: Define clear financial goals with deadlines and a meaningful “why” to stay motivated and accountable.
- Write goals as If they’ve already happened: Boost your confidence and likelihood of success by phrasing your goals in the past tense, as if you’ve already achieved them.
- Automate your finances: Simplify your financial life by automating savings, bill payments, and investments to stay consistent without extra effort.
- Invest in index funds over individual stocks: Opt for diversified index funds like VTI to minimize risk and eliminate the guesswork of stock picking.
- Everything is negotiable: Always negotiate your salary and benefits; not doing so could cost you up to a million dollars over your lifetime. From hotel upgrades to medical bills, don’t hesitate to ask for better deals—you might be surprised at what you can get.
- Maximize tax-advantaged accounts: Take full advantage of accounts like 401(k)s and Roth IRAs to save for retirement while enjoying tax benefits.
- Be cautious with speculative investments: Limit high-risk investments like crypto to no more than 5% of your portfolio to protect your financial future.
Notable quotes
“Money means options. It means choices, it means flexibility. Money is not a morally corrupt thing. You can pursue money and pursue wealth to pursue options. It’s not morally good or morally bad, it’s neutral.”
“You have more leverage when you are applying for jobs than you will ever have again during your entire tenure at that company.”
“If you’re wholly reliant on one source of income…you’re setting yourself up for a lot of volatility. If you get your hours cut, if you get laid off, if something happens to that primary source of income, there’s not a lot of other options for you. So diversifying that income I think is really important.”
Episode at-a-glance
≫ 02:23 Welcome (live from Seattle)
≫ 05:21 Personal Finance Q&A
≫ 14:11 Setting and Achieving Financial Goals
≫ 20:22 Financial Tricks and Negotiation Strategies
≫ 28:00 Tax Advantaged Accounts Explained
≫ 28:48 Understanding Tax-Advantaged Accounts
≫ 29:59 The Benefits of 401Ks and IRAs
≫ 31:57 Negotiation Tips and Tricks
≫ 34:24 The Power of Asking
≫ 38:40 Teaching Financial Literacy to Children
≫ 43:39 Exploring Multiple Income Streams
≫ 47:01 Crypto and Decentralized Finance
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About TBOY (The Best One Yet)
Hosted by ex-financiers and current best friends, Nick Martell and Jack Crivici-Kramer, TBOY brings clever insights and colorful charisma to its daily coverage of business news with hilarious and impactful 20 minute daily episodes. Formerly known as Robinhood’s Snacks Daily, the podcast was downloaded over 40M times in 2021. The Best One Yet debuted as an independent venture in April 2022.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
Hello, team. I’m excited to see you. Welcome to the show. I’m Tori. If you don’t know me already, I run Her First 100K. We have over five million followers, a community of five million women, saving money, paying off debts, start investing and starting businesses. You can get a free financial plan at herfirsthundredk.com slash quiz and if you’re an oldie but goodie, you knew all that already. Hi, welcome.
Today is a fun episode. We actually recorded it live in Seattle. It was my first any sort of live appearance that I’ve done in my home city since my book tour and it was going on The Best One Yet, which is a podcast that is all about business and financial news. We had a really, really great time in Seattle. It was a great event and we talk about a bunch of things today. We talk about how to set tangible, doable financial goals, including a hack I have about goals that has helped me achieve every single goal I’ve set out to do my finances in the business.
We talk about negotiating your worth and the cost of not negotiating, as well as everything you can negotiate outside of salary, including how I get free upgrades at hotel rooms, how I save money on my phone bill and my car insurance. We talk about investing and the importance of tax advantaged accounts and what the hell that means. We’re talking Roth IRAs and 401Ks, and we also talk about crypto and how I think it’s kind of a scam.
So, let’s talk about TBOY and what it is. Hosted by ex-financiers and current best friends, Nick and Jack TBOY brings clever insights and colorful charisma in its daily coverage of business news with hilarious and impactful 20 minute daily episodes. Formerly known as Robin Hood Snacks Daily, the podcast was downloaded over 40 million times in 2021. The best one yet debuted as an independent venture in April of 2022. So, this is from a live event we did in Seattle. If you want a Financial Feminist live, I would actually love to know that we haven’t really done live events for our show, so you can leave us a review or drop us a comment. If you’re on Spotify, tell us if you would come to a live event where you want to see it in your city, we would absolutely love to see you. So, let us know. Okay. Cool. Let’s get into it.
Nick:
Yetis, we are so excited to bring you the first ever TBOY hotline live episode presented by Audible. Thank you to Audible for bringing this amazing event to life with Audible, there’s more to imagine when you listen. Besties, keep on listening. Jack, let’s hit the mics. Here we go.
Tori Dunlap:
My dad negotiated every bill we ever had growing up. You can do this. I save thousands of dollars a year doing this, call if you have cable, but call your cable company. Call your phone company, call your car insurance. And what my dad does is, please steal this script. He goes, “How many years have I been a customer with you all?” And they’ll go, “Oh, it looks like 10 years. Mr. Dunlap.” And he goes, “Wow, 10 years. That’s a long time. How can we make it 11?”
Speaker 3:
Best one yet, but the best is the norm. Jack, Nick, that’s it. I don’t even think they need to practice. 50%, that’s a fat tip. TBOY’s City on your at-list. If you know, you know, because we ready to go. We can’t wait no more. So just start the show.
Nick:
[inaudible 00:03:35] this . Are there any Yetis in the crowd? Are there any Yetis in the crowd?
Jack:
How about some Besties over there?
Nick:
Are there any Besties in the crowd? This is Nick.
Jack:
This is Jack.
Nick:
And today’s live first ever hotline Pod of TBOY presented by Audible is The Best One Yet.
Jack:
If you’re listening, I wish you were watching because this stage?
Nick:
I mean, Jack.
Jack:
Oh my goodness.
Nick:
Can you sprinkle on some contacts [inaudible 00:04:08]?
Jack:
I’m looking at a 20 foot TBOY sign in slammin’ salmon pink right now.
Nick:
I mean this is like an architectural marvel. This is twice the size of you. This is like two lifts right here.
Jack:
Do I see Yeti teddy bears and TBOY T-shirts?
Nick:
They’re real Yeti teddy bears. These are based on real Yetis.
Jack:
We have an ice cream scoop truck.
Nick:
Yes.
Jack:
We have a mocktail bar-
Nick:
Slammin’ salmon.
Jack:
… with custom mocktails in TBOY vernacular.
Nick:
Also flavored salmon slammin’.
Jack:
This is incredible.
Nick:
This is wild. The two Yetis jumpin’. This is a Hollywood style set. If you were just listening, the T in TBOY is twice the size of us and Sam Almond.
Jack:
We are here in Seattle, the land of Microsoft, the land of Starbucks Macchiatos, and the land of Baclamar.
Nick:
Jack, I checked the data and 106% of this audience are Costco members.
Jack:
This is actually a Kirkland branded stage we’re standing on everybody.
Nick:
Oh, actually Costco reports earnings tomorrow. So that’s where everyone’s going to be in this.
Jack:
The stock price has become Costco sized.
Nick:
Yes. Yes, it has. Also, Jack, this is my first time in Seattle.
Jack:
It’s not mine.
Nick:
Really?
Jack:
It’s the first time I’ve seen Mount Rainier. Last time it was cloudy. That mountain is gigantic.
Nick:
It’s delicious. Also, this is the first time where it’s been my first time, but not your first time.
Jack:
True. I beat you to Seattle. You’re the traveler, not me.
Nick:
I am very impressed by that, Jack. Well, this episode is a TBOY hotline. So we’re answering your questions. That’s the theme. And the number one type of question we get from our audience is about money. It’s about personal finance, it’s about cash, it’s about what do I do-ah with my moola? Now you know us. We like to sprinkle in our best insights every day into our takeaways. But for this episode, we’re dedicating everything to personal finance, investing, money, retirement. Because these are subjects that are very important, but also very complicated. Could be exciting, but also anxiety inducing.
Jack:
What you do today, actually what you do right after this show at our post-ranks celebration with all of you actually could have an impact on what you do 50 years from now when it comes to finances.
Nick:
You’re going to learn some great insights tonight that can pay dividends for the future. But before we get into that, we want to see some hands.
Jack:
We want to see some hands.
Nick:
We want to ask you a question. Paul McCartney wrote an entire song about when I’m 64.
Jack:
Yes.
Nick:
Who can picture their 64-year-old selves?
Jack:
And who wants to share with us what is your life like at 64?
Nick:
Jack, can we kick things off for a second?
Jack:
My wife told me she wants a homestead with tons of land and egg-laying chickens so we can crack our own fried eggs.
Nick:
That’s beautiful.
Jack:
I want my own fleet of e-mountain bikes so me and my buddies and my grandkids maybe can bike up the mountain and not get too sweaty.
Nick:
It’s very X games of you. I see what’s happening.
Jack:
What do we got? Shout it right out. Where are you going to be? What over here?
Speaker 4:
Have a farm.
Jack:
We want to have a farm over here.
Speaker 5:
Traveling.
Jack:
Traveling. Fantastic. Where to?
Speaker 5:
Everywhere.
Jack:
Love that idea. What are you not going to be doing?
Audience:
Working.
Jack:
Yeah, that’s the common thread. Now, the reason we open with this question is because it’s the first question posed in Financial Feminist, which is written by our guest. Our sponsor, Audible, believes listening can expand our imagination. And I agree. That’s why I listened to Financial Feminist with my wife. And when we heard that question, what do you want your life to be like when you’re 65? We’d never thought about it. We’d never considered it. And now we have these goals and this dream that we’re aligned on and it’s glorious.
Nick:
It’s a beautiful feeling.
Jack:
So we’re actually going to bring on the author of that book. But before we do, we want to thank Wondery. We want to thank Audible, and we want to thank our guest. Nick, who is our guest?
Nick:
Our guest today, Jack is Tory Dunlap. Tori is the Bill Gates of Seattle.
Jack:
She has built up enough financial advice to make a career out of it.
Nick:
At the age of 22, Tori set a goal of having a $100,000 saved in her account. She accomplished that before she was 25.
Jack:
And to make sure we all learned from her journey, she published the whole thing publicly on her blog.
Nick:
As a result, Tori now has five million followers across social media.
Jack:
And she’s the CEO of Financial Feminist.
Nick:
Here’s the reality. She’s a podcaster.
Jack:
Yes, she’s a New York Times bestseller.
Nick:
True.
Jack:
And we got her here tonight, because if you want to talk money, you got to talk to Tori. So Besties and Yetis, let’s give it up TBOY style to Tori Dunlap. Tori.
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 00:08:56].
Jack:
I didn’t know that was there.
Nick:
[inaudible 00:08:57] with a little Yeti.
Tori Dunlap:
Honestly, he’s like my emotional support animal, so he’s going to be great. Can he sit here the whole time?
Jack:
I think so. Can you ask his permission first? Is he?
Tori Dunlap:
Ask his consent? Do you consent to be on my lap? He said yes, okay.
Jack:
So everyone gets a plus one.
Nick:
You are a New York Times bestseller. You have the top personal finance podcast. Five million people have clicked follow to learn what it is you’re doing and what smart insights you have. How did you become the financial feminist?
Tori Dunlap:
The big thing for me was I realized that when I had money, I had options. When I had the ability to leave toxic situations I didn’t want to be in anymore. When I had the ability to travel, or to donate to causes I believed in, or to start a business, everything opened up to me and that was the feeling I wanted for every single person and specifically every single woman on this planet. And there was something about financial freedom and financial flexibility that made the rest of my life come together. Everything got easier when I had money. And not only easier, but became more fruitful and more exciting and was so crucial to unlocking a lot of other parts of my life. And so I was like, “I want this feeling for every single person.”
Nick:
So we stole that question about where do you want to be when you’re 64 from you? We put our TBOY Pop Biz twist on it by thinking, “Hey, Paul McCartney wanted to know where he was when he was 64.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Nick:
So for you, what do you envision when you’re 64?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, I always joke that I’m going to be drinking Sauv Blanc with lunch and flirting with my much younger Pilates instructor named Luca. 65-year-old me is somehow even cooler than I am now. And I’m like, “I can’t wait to meet her.” But I pose that question to you all because I think, especially if you’re younger, you’re not thinking about your own retirement. You’re not thinking about 10, 20, 30 years away. It’s too hard to realize. And we know from stats that actually younger millennials and Gen Z, the number one reason they’re not saving for retirement is because they don’t think the world’s going to be there by the time they’re retiring.
Jack:
Yeah, it’s a disincentive.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Nick:
Time value of money. You really waited towards the now in that scenario.
Tori Dunlap:
And we also have, you have a million other things to think about. You have student loans and you have the cost of living and you just have all of these other goals too. And so I think that when you visualize that it’s not just this far off goal that is unobtainable or inaccessible, but actually you, current you taking care of future you, it makes makes it real. And so I give the joke of, yeah, I’m adopting dogs in Italy, but I love asking the audience what is the goal? And so while you’re thinking about how do I take care of present me and how do I make sure I’m going on trips and doing cool things, how do I protect Grandma Tori? How do I protect her? Because I want her to have a really, really great life, not just when she’s 30, but when she’s 65, and 72, and 80 and beyond.
Jack:
And making moves today can make that goal a reality.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. And protecting what she needs and what she wants. I think that, yeah, it’s just so important to not only think and plan about right now, but also plan for the future and realize that as an actual thing, not just something that’ll eventually happen.
Jack:
Well first of all, save the date because we’d like to interview Grandma Tori in 30 years if that’s okay.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh God, are podcasts still existing?
Jack:
Same time, same place, everybody. Does that work for everybody in the audience? Okay, great.
Tori Dunlap:
This is the beginning of a romantic comedy. We’re all going to be back here in 35 years before the train departs. And if you’re not here at that time, I’m going to be holding a red rose in my hand so you know it’s me.
Jack:
Can I call this RomCap, Romantic Capitalism?
Tori Dunlap:
Ooh!
Jack:
And we’re big believers in that as a genre.
Tori Dunlap:
Perfect.
Jack:
That’s a story for another pod though.
Tori Dunlap:
That sounds so The Hunger Games.
Jack:
Oh, not Capitol?
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Really.
Jack:
You mentioned goals and plans multiple times already. When I listened to your audiobook, you said something that stuck with both my wife and me. A goal without a plan is just a wish. And anyone can wish, and I’ve been wishing since I was a kid, but I’m not a kid anymore.
It’s so funny when you talk about financial goals, because Nick and I both asked each other what are our financial goals, you know what our answer was? We’d like to have more money next year than this year.
Nick:
Yeah, we’d like a little more money than last year.
Jack:
That’s not our life goal. We’re not motivated by money. It’s just that if you asked our financial goal it’s yeah, more money next year compared to this year.
Nick:
Which is so uninspiring.
Jack:
Yes. I so much prefer to think about my life when I’m 65 and that fleet of e-mountain bikes, that’s way more exciting to work towards. And my wife and I, we have the budget brunches once a month where we check in on all our finances and we look at all our accounts and we see are we going in the right direction or the wrong direction? But it’s felt a little empty at the end because yeah, right direction, but direction to where?
Nick:
So it’s a great quote. We loved it in your title when we listened to it, create a goal, because a goal without a plan is just a wish. So how do you start with a goal to become that Grandma Tori?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, so I will say I did not come up with that quote. I did use it for the book. I’m going to use your example and I’m going to poll the audience. How many of you have said, I want to be better with money? Pretty much everybody. Or I’m going to save more money this year. That’s not quantifiable, y’all. And the same thing is like, “I want more money the next year.” That’s a little better, right? At least it’s more specific.
But I do hear the, “I want to get better with money.” You can have an entire year go by and then convince yourself, okay, I saved $1, so I guess I’m better with money. And a lot of us do this. We’re motivated, goal-oriented people. But we just think especially with money, because it’s taboo and you don’t want to think about it and it feels scary. You’re like, “Okay, this is the year I’m going to get my stuff together. This is the year.” And then what happens is you don’t have a plan to get there. So I’m big on actionable things and if you want to take notes, pull out your phone. We’re going to do this.
Three things with your goals. I need you to be specific. So not just do I want to save money? How much do you want to save? For me, it was a 100K, That was the goal. I want to save a 100K, I want to save a $100,000. The second thing is it needs to be timely. By the end of this year. I want to pay off my debt in three years. For me it was I want to save a 100K by the day I turn before I turn 26.
So I can save a 100K at 25 and it still counts. That was the joke. And then I need you to put a mission or a why behind it. Because especially with financial goals, what’ll happen is you get started paying off your debt, you get started saving your emergency fund, you get started saving for your retirement, and then something happens. You get laid off, somebody invites you on this really cool trip to Cabo and you’re like, “Suddenly I have money to go spend on that.”
Nick:
Got to go.
Tori Dunlap:
And you end up self-sabotaging. You have to give yourself a reason to care. And especially when things get hard, you have to remind yourself, why am I doing this? So this is where the visualization piece comes in as well. So for me it was I want to save a 100K, specific, at 25, timely, so that I can quit my job and run my company full-time. Because that’s what I really wanted to do. I wanted to be an entrepreneur and wanted to impact women. That’s what I wanted to do. I want to save $2,000 to go to Japan next year so I can eat authentic ramen. Make it something you can taste or smell. Something that feels very visceral. And so I think that’s how we get one step closer to actually achieving our goals as opposed to just, “Oh, I’m going to be better with money.” And then having no backup plan to that.
Nick:
I also feel like there’s then a more fulfillment when you accomplish it. The ramen-
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Nick:
… does taste better when it was part of a goal.
Tori Dunlap:
They actually have studies that show that the anticipation of the thing is often better than the thing itself. That’s why the two weeks leading up to-
Nick:
It’s so fun.
Tori Dunlap:
… the Italian vacation, you’re like, “Oh my God, I just want to be on a beach.” And then you get to the beach and it’s still fun, but the actual anticipation of the thing is more exciting.
And then you also get to validate yourself. You’re like, “Hell yes, I did this thing. It wasn’t just this goal I set.” And then you also feel like crap later if you just say, “I’m going to be better with money.” And then December 31st rolls around and you’re like, “I didn’t get any better with money this year.” It wasn’t specific. You need to know either I hit this thing, or I didn’t hit this thing.
And also, I’ll say one last thing. I remember setting my a hundred K goal and literally my dad called me and he’s like, “So you’ve set this goal and you’ve announced it publicly. What happens if you don’t hit it?” And this is my parents. What happens if you don’t do it? And I was like, “Okay. Then I have 80K at 25, I have 70K.” Okay, it’s still great. I purposely set goals that feel a little scary because they’re not goals if you’re like, “Yeah, that’s a Tuesday,” that’s not a goal. That’s just a normal day.
Nick:
This also reminds me of something Jack and I have been doing when we’re doing business planning. We’re planning for 2025 right now. And one thing Jack and I say is, if it’s just in your head, then it’s not going to happen. Great studies on how when you actually write down the goal, it increases the chance of you accomplishing it by 42%.
So one thing Jack and I like to think about is writing it down, telling a friend, and putting it on your calendar. Because if you write it down, you’re more likely to do it. If you tell a friend, there’s a little bit of that peer pressure to actually do it. And if you put it on your calendar, when that flashes up, you’re like, “Oh yeah, I got to get on that.”
Jack:
We’re about to launch something that we’ve been talking about for three years.
Nick:
Yes, we have.
Jack:
And when you wrote it in a Google Doc and sent it to me, everything changed. It was incredible.
Nick:
You’re so right. You’re so right.
Jack:
I took the Google Doc, I turned it into a deck.
Nick:
He started typing, typing.
Jack:
And then it changed even more. And each step came closer and closer to fruition. We can’t tell you what that is right now.
Tori Dunlap:
What a team.
Jack:
But we can tell you we’re really excited. And it was three years and it began with us writing it down.
Tori Dunlap:
Can I give you one last hack too before we move on?
Nick:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Write your goals down as if they’ve already happened.
Nick:
Oh, like the framing of them.
Tori Dunlap:
That is my favorite hack.
Nick:
Can you give us an example of how that sounds?
Tori Dunlap:
Does anybody watch the Try Guys? Does anybody know who The Try Guys? Thank you. Thank God somebody. Okay. The Try Guys are my favorite. I love them. I’ve seen every video multiple times, and way back when I started watching them in 2018, 2019-
Jack:
I’m sorry, what are they?
Tori Dunlap:
… The Try Guy? They’re like a YouTube…
Jack:
Oh, the Try Guys. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Eight million followers. They had a fun couch controversy two years ago, but we don’t talk about that.
Jack:
Second try.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, Second Try LLC. Thank you. Yeah. So I was watching them. I was just such a fan and I was like, “I want to be on the show. I want collab with them.” And so rather than saying, okay, even the goal example I gave, “Okay, I’m going to work with the try guys by this year.” I literally said in my journal I would write, “I loved working with the try guys. It was such a great experience.” For me with my book, being a New York Times bestselling author was life-changing.
Jack:
Wow.
Tori Dunlap:
Before it had happened, before I even had a book before I knew how I was going to get there. And I will say every goal I’ve ever done that to has worked. I’ve achieved it.
Jack:
So not just writing down, reframing it as if it’s happened.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s Anderson .Paak’s lyric. “If I know I can get it, then I’ve already had it.”
Jack:
We’ll take it.
Tori Dunlap:
It works great.
Jack:
So we’d actually love another hack from you, Nick and I have coined the term financial trick shots. These are low or no cost moves you can make that’ll improve your financial situation. Nick, it actually originated with fancy takeout.
Nick:
Yeah, fancy takeout.
Jack:
The original trick shot.
Nick:
Financial trick shot.
Jack:
The food can be fantastic, but if you’re eating it out of a plastic container? That’s not glamorous.
Nick:
It’s not the same. Doesn’t last.
Tori Dunlap:
The condensation on the top of the lid.
Nick:
Yeah.
Jack:
So Nick takes his takeout and he puts it onto his finest china, lights a candle and has a date night.
Nick:
It’s wonderful.
Jack:
Yeah, it’s a low cost investment with a high ROI, because that dinner then feels like you’re on your honeymoon because you got the wedding China out, even though you’re just having a few noodles.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re dating yourself-
Jack:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
… is really what’s happening.
Jack:
It’s beautiful thing.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s really important, self-care everybody, date yourself.
Nick:
So Jack and I are always looking for financial trick shots out there. When it comes to investing or personal finance, what are some of your best ones?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh gosh, I have so many. Okay, first one. I need you to automate everything you possibly can in your financial life. I think there’s this misconception that you’re going to get a gold star if you make things harder than they have to be? Like, “Ooh, I’ve got to really earn it.” I do this when I have a meeting next week and I don’t write it down. I’m like, “I should remember it.” I don’t remember it ever.
Nick:
I got this.
Tori Dunlap:
And then I beat myself up because I show up late to the meeting. It’s just like, “Write it down.” Automate everything you possibly can. So a lot of us know we can automate our bills. You can automate your savings. You can set up an automatic transfer from your checking account to your savings account to happen whenever you want. Or a lot of if you’re at a typical nine-to-fiver, or you can set up automatic transfers to have a portion of your paycheck go immediately into your savings.
Nick:
Before you even see it.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. And it’s called paying yourself first in the industry, but it allows you to do the hard thing first. Too many people wait until the end of the month to start saving or investing, and then they don’t have any money left over, and then they beat themselves up about that. So do the hard thing first. Take care of that, so that any money that’s left over is either expenses for your life, or fun stuff.
So you can automate your investments. You can automate your savings. The second one I hear, speaking of get a gold star because you think it’ll be better. I don’t pick hot stocks. I don’t do that. I have Timothee Chalamet YouTube compilations to watch. I got better things to do with my life. Any professional stock picker is statistically not great at their job. It’s very, very difficult to pick a hot stock and ride it to the moon. I invest in like VTI, which is a total stock market index fund, and index funds are groups of stocks. So rather than trying to pick the hot stock, I’ve picked the hot stock every single time, because I’ve just set it and forget.
Nick:
It’s in that smoothie of an ETF investment.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Well, and it is well-diversified and it takes the guesswork out. And it also, every time I have money to invest, I’m not racking my brain spending six hours researching what is Jim Cramer telling me to do today?
Jack:
Got a life to live.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, Jim Cramer. So I think that for me, that was something my dad taught me, and that was something that truly has made a difference in my investing journey and has turned me into a millionaire. I spend less than two hours probably every six months on my investing strategy. Because it’s literally just, I’m just plugging and playing.
Jack:
And it’s automatic too.
Nick:
It’s low cost because you’re not doing all that research and it’s higher return, literally.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. And your fees are 0.03% for something like VTI.
Nick:
You know what we should get Tori’s opinion on? The story we just covered on the pod. The other financial trick shot on the signing bonus.
Jack:
Our latest financial trick shot.
Nick:
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Jack:
We know you’re a negotiator. And one financial trick shot Nick and I have always practiced is if you ever get offered a job, ask for a little more before you accept.
Nick:
Oh, the signing bonus is having a moment right now. Get the stats on this. The number of companies offering signing bonuses has doubled in the last five years.
Tori Dunlap:
Interesting.
Jack:
Because if someone’s making the move to offer you a job, they’re committed to you and they’re not offering you the most they’re willing to pay. That’s almost a guarantee.
Nick:
True, true, true.
Jack:
So ask for a little more because they have a little more budget that they’ll give you if you ask for it.
Nick:
And that’s the thing that no one realizes is that when you get the job offer, the leverage has totally shifted. It’s no longer with the employer, it’s now with you because they’ve committed all this to you and they want to hire you. So something like 70% of signing bonuses come from someone requesting it after they got the offer. So any advice on how to do that request?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh my gosh. I could give you an hour-long workshop right now. We do have a chapter in the book, shameless plug, but I will give you quick, quick and dirty. Okay, couple things. One, you’re exactly right. You have more leverage when you are applying for jobs than you will ever have again at your entire tenure at that company.
Jack:
Wow.
Tori Dunlap:
So if you’re not negotiating then, you’re going to have a way harder time after that. I know the stats, especially for women, women who do not negotiate, lose a million dollars over the course of their lifetime compared to women who do.
Nick:
How does it add up to a million dollars?
Tori Dunlap:
Compound interest, right? Because think about if you’re investing part of that money, the gains over your lifetime, but also think about, okay, if you got offered 50K and you negotiated up to 55, well the next job you’re going to be at 65 as opposed to 57, and the next job you’re at 70 as opposed to 60, right? You can see how even your earning history goes up as you progress in your career.
Jack:
It anchors you lower and lower than when you could have been.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally. So when it comes to negotiating, you’re exactly right. Ask for more money than you want, or than you’ve realized is your market rate. So you’re going to go out and do your research. You’re going to not only go on a Glassdoor, but you’re also going to talk to people. Also shout out PayScale because they’re a Seattle based company. They’re great. But also have conversations with people. Talk to recruiters that you know, talk to people in your industry.
My background was in marketing. I’d go to other marketers and be like, “Hey, based on this job description as well as the experience you know I bring to the table, what should I be asking for?” Get a range. If that range again, let’s say easy math is 60 to 70 and the job’s trying to offer you 45 or something, you’re going to say, “Thank you so much for this offer. This is fantastic. I’m really looking forward to working with you.” And you’re going to start there. And you’re going to say, “To be compensated fairly, I’m looking for a range of,” you’re not going to give the range that you found because that’s where you’re trying to land. You’re going to ask for 60 to 70. As opposed to 50 to 60. Because if they’re at 45 and you ask for 50, well you’re going to be at like 47. Right?
But if they’re offering you 45 and you ask for 60 to 70, well now you’re going to be at 55, 58, which is right where we want to be. If they will not budge, if they will not negotiate with you, there are way more things you can negotiate beside salary. And I have a whole list in my book. PTO, health benefits, a signing bonus, a relocation bonus, remote work, a travel stipend. There’s so many other things that you can negotiate because we’re not just talking about salary, we’re talking about a total compensation package here.
Jack:
Yeah, you’re saying it’s not just a signing bonus, it’s a signing perk.
Tori Dunlap:
Sure.
Jack:
And the moment to ask is after you get the job offer, and it’s a financial trick shot because the cost of asking is basically just like the awkwardness of asking.
Tori Dunlap:
Truly. And I think especially for women, I talk to so many women, they feel, “Oh, they’re going to rescind my offer. They’re going to be mad at me. They’re going to view me as ungrateful.” And it’s like, “If they rescind your offer, they just did you a huge favor.” Because they are not interested in talking about salary. They’re not going to talk to you about your worth during your entire tenure of employment there.
Jack:
It’s a saving.
Tori Dunlap:
If they’re not willing to have a tough conversation with you that feels a little uncomfortable, they’re not going to have tough conversations with you ever again.
Jack:
I want to talk about tax advantage accounts, which has the worst branding in [inaudible 00:28:04].
Tori Dunlap:
Really, really does.
Nick:
We’ve been trying to rebrand Tax Advantage accounts since 2019.
Jack:
Tax advantage accounts, in my opinion, are tricks to legally not pay taxes. In fact, it’s so legal, the government wants you to do it.
Nick:
We’ve been coming up with ways we’re trying to describe them as a tax advantage account is like a fast-pass at Disney World that lets you cross-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, you’re speaking my language.
Nick:
… the line.
Tori Dunlap:
Disneyland is my favorite place on earth. It’s my worst quality, but I absolutely love it.
Nick:
It’s like an invisibility cloak from paying taxes. That’s the other way we’ve been working with.
Jack:
Can you tell us a little bit, actually, can you describe tax advantage accounts in a way that they’re exciting because we think they are.
Tori Dunlap:
I think the way I describe it is the government is incentivizing you to save for your own retirement by offering you tax breaks. And they’re dangling a carrot in front of you and they’re like, “Hey, if you save some of your own money, we will give you a little bit of a benefit so that basically we don’t have to pay for you as much when you retire.” Really, that’s what they’re doing.
Nick:
That’s a good way to put it.
Tori Dunlap:
So this is the only time where it feels like we get any tax breaks as normal individuals. So I think that I highly encourage everybody to take advantage of them. And what we’re talking about when we’re talking about tax advantage accounts is retirement accounts typically. So 401Ks, Roth IRAs, traditional IRAs, even HSAs. These are tax advantage accounts usually for retirement, where the government’s being like, “Here you go. You can have this little, little tiny snack. If you contribute a little bit of money.”
Jack:
Yeah, you’re going to have expenses when you turn 60, a hundred percent, and you can save for them now, and then pay for them when you’re 60. But you’re going to pay taxes on that. Unless you put it in a tax advantage account.
Tori Dunlap:
So that’s why these accounts exist, because who knows if social security will be around when we’re all retiring. And it’s also, again, our way of protecting 65-year-old us, and either paying less taxes now or less taxes when you do take that money out. So yeah, 401Ks I like. Just really simplifying it for folks in the room who have heard that, but don’t know exactly what that means. You cannot open a 401K if you are a nine-to-fiver, unless your employer offers it. So it is an employer benefit that you want to look for when we’re negotiating.x As of this recording today, it’s $23,000 a year for anybody under 55 years old. And so you can contribute anything up to that amount, which is incredibly, I mean, that’s the most generous thing our government’s done.
Jack:
Huge.
Tori Dunlap:
Unfortunately. But it’s $23,000. And so if you have a traditional 401K, that means that you are paying the tax later versus a Roth 401K or a Roth IRA means you pay the tax now so you can take it out tax-free. I personally like the Roth, either 401K or IRA for a couple reasons. One, it’s like giving 65-year-old me a little gift. It’s like, “Hey, here, take this money. Go with Hot Luca on a cool trip. Have fun.” Right?
Second thing is I have no idea what the hell taxes are going to be when we’re set to retire. It could be better. It could be Hunger Games. And it probably will be Hunger Games. And also it’s more security knowing that like, “I know what’s going on right now, so I can just take care of this.” And then IRAs again comes in two flavors. Traditional or Roth. Traditional means that you’re paying the tax later. Roth means you’re paying the tax now. And $7,000 a year right now.
Jack:
The government’s giving us a tax break that’s so easy. We know that corporations and rich people love tax breaks. This is one available to everyone. Of course, I want a tax break. It needs the rebrand.
Nick:
It does.
Jack:
Disney’s got to get on this thing.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know how to make it sexy though. I really don’t. It’s hard.
Jack:
Well, the four initials 401K don’t help. It helps. It comes from the tax code, but we got to update that.
Tori Dunlap:
And my favorite is the TikTok jokes where it’s like, “401K? You want me to run how far?” Thank you. Thank you. Pity laugh. I really appreciate it.
Jack:
You could have taken full credit for that one, Tori.
Tori Dunlap:
I got to give credit where credit’s due, but I just love that, “401K. I have to run out far?”
Jack:
Can we talk about another range of uncomfortable conversations? We went from the salary negotiation, which is-
Nick:
As comfortable as this conversation is.
Jack:
I mean, she makes uncomfortable things comfortable.
Nick:
She does.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s nice.
Jack:
We heard in Financial Feminist that from an early age you learned from your father about things being negotiable.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, yeah. Dean Dunlap is the master negotiator.
Jack:
What are some things that you negotiate?
Nick:
Because Jack and I are of the opinion that everything on a daily basis is essentially negotiable. There’s something every day that you could negotiate. Actually, our hotel where we’re staying here?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, you took mine. Go ahead. No, go ahead.
Nick:
You run with it. You own it.
Tori Dunlap:
Own it, own it. Own it.
Nick:
All right, I’ll take it, I’ll take it. We could have just taken that rate. We also could have taken the TripAdvisor discount rate, but instead we called the hotel and said, “Hey, we’re actually booking rooms for a whole team. We got a group here. What can you do for that?” And they gave us a rate that was off the books. That was negotiable, and that was pretty satisfying.
Tori Dunlap:
And then when you show up to the hotel, what you do is you go, “Hey, I’m so excited to be here. How are you doing?” Right? You always want to ask how they’re doing. Both because you’re a kind, nice person, and also you’re more likely to get what you want if you’re nice. And then you go, “Hey, are there any complimentary upgrades available?”
Audience:
Oh?
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you again. Appreciate it.
Nick:
That was so easy.
Tori Dunlap:
Eight times out of 10, maybe even nine. Oh, they don’t know who I am, right? Because that’s the thing is they don’t know you have a following on Instagram. They have no idea who I am. I just go, “Do you have any complimentary upgrades available?” They want to make your day better. It’s just a random person doing their job. And if they can give you an extra room, they know they’re not going to sell it that night most likely. So the amount of room upgrades I’ve got, like corner suites. It’s just, it’s so easy.
Jack:
I know you like fried chicken.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you.
Jack:
I was at a Michigan football game and I got food for all my brothers, and I only have two hands. I got chicken fingers with french fries. And I said, this is for all my brothers. Can I have a few more chicken fingers? Boom. Got a few chicken fingers.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re even braver than me. Wow.
Jack:
Right?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Also, there’s plenty of times we’ve been on an airplane and do they even have screens on the back of your, I guess on international flights. I’m like, “What decade am I in?” But if something doesn’t go right, if your seat doesn’t recline or your bags were lost, they’ll just give you airline miles. Just ask them, “Hey, I want to have a great experience today. How can you help make that happen?”
Nick:
This is usually Jack’s role, but I just want to whip up a quick takeaway here. It sounds like the first rule to negotiating is ask.
Tori Dunlap:
Always ask.
Nick:
Ask.
Tori Dunlap:
And there’s plenty of times where they’re like, “No, Miss Dunlap, we don’t have any complimentary room upgrades.” And then I’m like, “Okay, no worries.” It’s like I can either sit there and go, “Oh no, what have I done?” Or it’s just like, “It’s what it is.” And it’s less about getting what I want, and it’s more building the muscle of hearing no.
Nick:
Okay. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. It’s more like when I was single, I would go up to men and ask them out. Because it wasn’t about whether they said yes or not. It was about me getting up the courage to do something scary. And it’s the same thing with negotiating. And my dad negotiated every bill we ever had growing up. You can do this. I save thousands of dollars a year doing this. Call if you have cable, call your cable company. Call your phone company. Call your car insurance. And what my dad does, please steal this script. He goes, “How many years have I been a customer with you all?” And they’ll go, “Oh, it looks like 10 years Mr. Dunlap.” And he goes, “Wow, 10 years. That’s a long time. How can we make it 11?” And it works like a charm.
Jack:
Amazing.
Tori Dunlap:
And he also, when he is on the phone, he goes immediately to the cancel department when it’s, yes, thank you, when it’s like, “Press one if you want a representative, press two if you want to cancel.” He’s like, “Two,” immediately, because it gets due to the people who can actually make decisions.
Nick:
True. And you’re right, it is not just the little hotel [inaudible 00:35:49] because Jack really wanted that view of Puget Sound, which he did. And he is going to get.
Jack:
I already got.
Nick:
It’s also health insurance. You can call your health insurance and say, “This bill…” The other day, we just said the bill was really big. Getting anything done in California is expensive.
Jack:
That’s wild. I got an emergency room visit bill slashed by a thousand dollars, because I asked. It was wild.
Nick:
[inaudible 00:36:10].
Tori Dunlap:
Healthcare is a whole nother thing. We have, again, a script in the book too that talks about negotiating medical bills because especially if they’re going to ask you if it’s a bigger bill and they want to put you on a payment plan and you can pay for it in full. I remember when I got my wisdom teeth out and it was going to be like $1,400 and I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so much money.” And they’re like, “Okay, well we can do a 12-month payment plan,” but they don’t want me to hypothetically get to month six and not be able to pay anymore. So you can say something like, “Hey, I’ll give you $1,200 or a thousand dollars right now and I’ll just pay it in full.” And they’ll usually take you up on that.
Nick:
They want to just get the deal done.
Jack:
They want to close [inaudible 00:36:41].
Tori Dunlap:
Because they’d rather get guaranteed money right now.
Nick:
And if that doesn’t work, you just say, “I’m Tori’s dad.”
Tori Dunlap:
I just stick my dad on them and see what happens.
Nick:
Besties, it’s time for us to tell you more about our presenting sponsor, Audible. Because Jack and I don’t just consume content, we chug content. We’re commuting to the studio, weekend road trips, waiting in line for anything, our go-to app during all those times? It’s Audible. Why? One reason is to make sure that our show is the best one yet. We’ve got to find new insights, information, and insider secrets that we can whip into our takeaways.
So we listen to podcasts, audiobooks, and other titles. And we do it on Audible. We’re listening to memoirs, histories, biographies, autobiographies, [inaudible 00:37:24] biographies. Our Audible shelf is stacked. All right, Jack, I just discovered new title on Audible, I listened to on the way to this show called The Story of Jay-Z. Actually, it’s the story of Jay-Z.
Jack:
You told me about it.
Nick:
It’s how the rapper went from street corner, to corner office. It’s called Empire State of Mind. And I will never listen to another Jay-Z lyric again in the same way after hearing this. Allow me to reintroduce my audiobook. It’s about Jay-Z’s business. You listen to a lot of Jay-Z already Yetis, but now you’ll really listen after listening to this Audible title.
Jack:
Another thing I love about Audible, the narrators. The Jay-Z one doesn’t have Jay-Z as the narrator, but the man whose voice it is. You played it for me. Voice of an angel.
Nick:
Classic voice of an angel. Now I also listened to Trevor Noah’s audiobook narrated by Trevor Noah. And that one is just special, because you actually hear his voice coming from the horse’s mouth. Yetis, as an Audible member, you can choose one bestseller or new release every month. Plus listen all you want to thousands of included titles.
Jack:
If you think TBOY is truly the best one yet, our listening on Audible had something to do with it.
Nick:
Audible is giving our listeners a very special offer. New members can get their first audiobook free when they sign up for a free 30-day trial. Visit audible.com/TBOY or text TBOY to 500-500.
Jack:
That’s audible.com/TBOY or text TBOY to 500-500. Let’s get back to the show now.
Now, it wouldn’t be a TBOY hotline if we didn’t take questions from the Yetis and the Besties.
Nick:
Well put, Jack.
Jack:
We have a few great ones.
Tori Dunlap:
I love it.
Jack:
And these aren’t voicemails. These are the live in-person real Yetis who are in the audience with us right now! I think Ty’s going to kick it off for us.
Ty:
Sure. Hey, Ty from Seattle. Big fan of the show. Both of your shows. My wife and I are new parents. We have a six-week-old at home.
Nick:
Congratulations.
Ty:
Our second date night. It’s great. How would you suggest us as new parents help prepare her for her life ahead of her? And then as she gets older, help her on her path to financial literacy?
Nick:
Ty, what’s your new baby’s name again?
Ty:
Maxine.
Nick:
Max?
Ty:
Maxine.
Jack:
Maxine. That’s what you call your son.
Nick:
I know. That’s what we call our son.
Jack:
Oh, they got to meet.
Ty:
Absolutely.
Jack:
All right guys, first of all, quick round of applause for the new parents in the audience on their second date night out. So I am a huge, I think there’s glory in the stock market for many reasons. I mean, we cover it on our show all the time.
Nick:
A lot.
Jack:
One of the first things I like to do as a gift for my brothers, and even for Nick, I kicked off a 529 savings account on behalf of Nick’s son.
Nick:
Yeah, thank you.
Jack:
And I hooked Nick’s son up with a little pair of baby Nikes and one single share of Nike stock.
Nick:
Yeah, Jack and I now call this tradition the birthday business gift.
Jack:
Nick hooked my son up with Hasbro because he is a big Hot Wheels guy.
Nick:
I bought a hundred dollars worth of shares of Mattel for your son. And then for the pod son, I bought a hundred dollars worth of Disney, because he loves Toy Story.
Jack:
Oh yeah, Toy Story. Buzz Lightyear, Hot Cars, Luca. Hey, could you tell us about-
Nick:
I just should point out though, the two stocks I bought your sons are up, and Nike stock has been down.
Jack:
Since I bought it, I know.
Nick:
For Maxi’s entire life. And I might take the loss for tax reasons for Maxi, but Jack, if you could-
Jack:
VTI. VTI. VTI, baby.
Nick:
… pick better stocks for our son, that’d be great.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I think 529s are great. I think obviously this is a massive privileged position, but I was really lucky to have parents and family who always bought me gifts at Christmas and birthdays. And it got to the point where I remember as a kid I was playing with one or two and it just got to be too much. And it’s like if you can be intentional with folks in your life who are giving gifts and want to celebrate. Yeah, 529. I always do the fun gift, exactly what you guys are talking about. Actually, I do the fun gift, and then I do the practical gift.
Jack:
Nice.
Tori Dunlap:
So I remember I had a friend who was turning 16 and I was like, “Okay, I’m going to give you your first investment for a Roth IRA, and I’m also going to get you Sephora,” right? Like, “I’m get you the two things you really like.” I will also say very practical advice, but not necessarily strictly about money, please educate her about money. That is the best gift you can give her because that was the gift my parents gave me. And I wouldn’t be standing here, sitting here. I wouldn’t be sitting here with you had I not have the privilege of a financial education for my parents. And we see, unfortunately, if you do get a financial education, it’s usually for sons. It’s usually for boys. It’s not in the same way for girls. So educate her about money, teach her about investing, teach her about as she gets older, how to use money as a tool to build the life that she wants to. And that’s honestly, in addition to the practical 529 advice, that’s the best gift you can give her.
Nick:
I should point out that our son, Maxi can’t speak yet, but Jack, he has told me that he’s interested in Nvidia stock, so maybe second birthday gift.
Jack:
How about a fractional share?
Nick:
I think he mowed out whole share. And Berkshire for year three. You’re on it.
Jack:
Ty, the reason we got him Disney Plus is because he does love cars. Lightning McQueen is his deity.
Tori Dunlap:
Good show.
Jack:
And I want to show him as he gets old enough that he actually owns part of the company that produced that film. And I want to show him that the value of that ownership can grow and pay dividends. And that’s going to be my kind of inroad to teaching him a little bit about… So I’m typically not an individual stock guy, but I think there’s value to them and sort of making an emotional, tangible understanding to what this whole stock ownership thing is.
Tori Dunlap:
You own a part of a company and that’s very powerful. And I think, yeah, we were talking about visualization this whole time that allows you to, yeah, I own the thing that I watch or consume or like, yep.
Nick:
Let’s hit our second TBOY hotline question who we got, Rachel?
Kin:
Hey, this is Kin from Seattle as well. Big fan. Also parents. Question, when is it the right time to build multiple sources of income versus focusing on one job or business?
Nick:
Multiple sources of income. When is the right time? Thank you guys so much for being Yetis and for coming out on this date night together by the way. How about an applause for Kin? So Jack and I have thought of this in the context of side hustles, typically. We started our business as a side hustle and it led to becoming a second source of income while we were running a newsletter in secret while working at banks in New York. So it was a risky side hustle, but it was a side hustle that started generating income and we eventually came clean on it.
But one way we thought about when to start, it was when we thought it would be sustainable. And for us that was this 1-3-6 rule we have about side hustles. If you’re still thinking about that new business idea after one day? Commit to it. If you’re working on it after three months, you should probably launch it. And after six months, it’s time to leave your job and turn that side hustle into a real hustle. But that’s how Jack and I have sometimes thought of when to do a side hustle and when to commit to it.
Jack:
The second source of income I got was our side hustle. The third was Airbnb’ing my place once I had my own apartment.
Nick:
Oh, nice.
Jack:
Yeah. Once I was no longer your roommate and I could sort of do an Airbnb.
Nick:
Yeah, I was kind of like an Airbnb co-buddy in your apartment.
Jack:
Do you have any advice on second sources of income?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I think that side hustles, it was the same story for me. Her First 100K was the side hustle and when I felt like it was in a good enough position to take it full time, but I waited a lot longer than six months. It was a couple of years. I think you asked when is the best time to do that. I mean honestly now. Yesterday, but now. The other thing is that a lot of people don’t realize that second sources of income can be the interest from your high-yield savings account. That’s income.
Nick:
Great way to put it.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s taxed as income, so it may as well it’s income. And that’s completely passive. You’re not doing anything except moving your money out of an account that’s getting 0.3% interest into something that’s getting four or five. That’s very powerful. That’s an additional source of income. And I would also say, if you’re wholly reliant on one source of income, as much as it is important to focus on something and to be able to build your career and negotiate, it’s also, you’re setting yourself up for a lot of volatility. If you get your hours cut, if you get laid off, if something happens to that primary source of income, there’s not a lot of other options for you. So diversifying that income I think is really important.
Nick:
Tori, this is why Jack and I have been following you for a while and while we have so much fun listening to your advice is that you cut through so much to get at the simplicity. Jack and I just described launching a side house while we’re out of our bank job, second source of income, and you’re like, “Yeah, high-yield savings account.” That is way easier.
Tori Dunlap:
No, it’s also though, I just want to give people flexibility because there was a lot of privilege in me starting a side hustle. You have to have a lot of time to do that. You have to have a lot of… All of us work really hard and to think like, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to have a second job now?” Side hustle is a word that we use as people who don’t have to have second jobs in order to survive.
Jack:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Right? So side hustle I think is the way that you potentially follow your passion or figure out if you want to be an entrepreneur. But if you don’t want to be an entrepreneur, there’s other ways that you can increase the sources of income that you have.
Nick:
Jack, should we hear a third live hotline question?
Jack:
Let’s do it.
Nick:
Let’s do it.
Rachel:
My name is Rachel, and I’m from Phoenix, but living here in Seattle now. While the crypto business is doing just okay, how do you see it impacting the movement to decentralize financial services? Or do you see decentralized finance as just a fad?
Nick:
Okay, crypto question, but first of all, Rachel, the hat looks awesome. So cool. You’re wearing a TBOY hat. A shout-out and a round of applause for Rachel for coming up here and with a great question.
Jack:
Rachel, predicting what’s going to happen with crypto is to me a total fool’s errand. Not worth it. I think what we can tell you is what Nick and I have done personally at the end of the show, you’ve heard us say we own a Bitcoin.
Nick:
Yeah, a Bitcoin named Ben. Ben isn’t here with us tonight, but he’s kind of always around and we have some Ethereum named Ethel.
Jack:
So we only invested, Nick and me individually, in crypto money that we were willing to completely lose. Because it is so risky and so volatile. We said literally, “If this goes to zero, are we okay with it?” We said, “Yeah, that amount of money, if we lost that, that’s okay.”
Nick:
At the same time, the Winklevoss twins say, Bitcoin’s going to a million dollars.
Jack:
And if that does happen, we don’t want to miss out on that.
Nick:
No, we don’t. Full disclosure.
Jack:
So we kind of call it our sucker’s insurance.
Nick:
Yes, sucker’s insurance.
Jack:
Our investments in Bitcoin and Ethereum, which are relatively small. If they go to zero, we’re okay with that.
Nick:
But if it does go somewhere, we have some in the game so we can be a part of that. And for that reason, we call it our sucker’s insurance policy.
Tori Dunlap:
I had to grab the Yeti for this,, because anything we talk about crypto, I’m just like, “Erm.”
Jack:
Tori is clutching, for everyone listening, the plush Yeti doll.
Nick:
She winced when I said Winklevoss.
Tori Dunlap:
I honestly did. It was a visceral shudder. I don’t like crypto. I mean, hopefully I’m not, you’re playing this in five years being like, “Ha-ha.” But I think it’s a total scam. I completely agree though, from my financial expert standpoint, any speculative investment, whether that’s crypto… I invest in art, because I like to feel fancy, and I own a dot on a Warhol painting and it makes me feel sophisticated. But I don’t put more than 5% of my total portfolio in that because to your point, if it is a scam or if it is, it doesn’t end up going a million dollars. You don’t want to put all of your eggs in one basket.
And that’s true for anything in personal finance. I don’t want you putting all of your eggs in one basket, just like you shouldn’t keep all of your money in a checking account, or all of your money in the stock market. So I think that if you’re going to invest in anything, understand the level of risk that you’re willing to take, especially with something that’s speculative, don’t put more than 5% in. And I completely agree that trying to anticipate what’s going to happen is just, we can’t do it. Even as experts. We can’t do it.
Nick:
No, we can’t. Ben the Bitcoin, he’s kind of all over the place.
Jack:
Rachel, thank you very much for the question.
Nick:
Thank you Rachel.
Jack:
So Tori, this has been a wonderful interview. Thank you so much for coming.
Tori Dunlap:
Thanks for having me.
Jack:
At the end of every one of our shows, we like to whip up the takeaways.
Nick:
Yes, we do. So Tori, we got to ask you, what’s the takeaway on Tori Dunlap and the Financial Feminist and everything on money for all of our Yetis and Besties right here in person?
Tori Dunlap:
Money means options. It means choices, it means flexibility. Money is not a morally corrupt thing. You can pursue money and pursue wealth to pursue options. It’s not morally good or morally bad, it’s neutral. And I want to see all of you in this room have enough money to be able to build the life that you want, to be able to take care of your family, and to be able to use it as a tool to do all of those things.
Nick:
Thank you so much. Everybody. Give it up for Tori Dunlap.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you.
Jack:
So same time, 30 years from now, Grandma Tori and us.
Nick:
We’re still going to be doing the show.
Jack:
Same stage.
Nick:
But Jack, we haven’t fully done the show yet. Because in addition to having this wonderful stage with the giant emblem that is four times our size behind us and the T-B-O-Y, I got to ask, is it time for the best fact yet?
Jack:
I think our buddy Timmy sent one in.
Nick:
Our buddy Timmy did send in the best fact yet. Jack, you want to whip it up for us.
Jack:
So according to a fidelity analysis of five million investors over a 10-year period ending in 2021, women actually enjoyed better returns in the stock market than men do.
Nick:
Yeah, it’s true.
Jack:
Now women invest in the stock market less as a percentage of the population than men do. But maybe that’ll change after you hear this. Women investing in the stock market, in the study, enjoyed a 0.4% per year, better return than the men did.
Nick:
And Jack and I can attest this as two former men in finance who rounded up our six foot and don’t have blue eyes. Because we’ve had our SPAC era, we’ve all been through that and those stocks have not performed as well. We’ve tried a lot of different things. We’ve traded options, we’ve done it all.
Jack:
This is Jack, I still own stock in Peloton.
Nick:
This is Nick, I still own stock in ChargePoint. Really waiting for it to hit that $1 mark.
Jack:
Now that fidelity analysis found that the reason women outperform is because they’re more hands off on their investments.
Nick:
They do less.
Jack:
They’re less likely to try to time the market, buy and sell every day based on little tweets or little bits of news. They chill. And that is actually, historically, the best strategy in the stock market.
Nick:
And it’s kind of one of our financial trick shots is our best performing investment is the S&P 500 ETF.
Jack:
Yeah. Historically that’s been way better than our advanced portfolio where we’re trying to do the Nvidia game that Nick mentioned.
Nick:
But the investing visual that we want to leave you with is Nintendo. Because Jack and I believe great investing is doing the opposite of how you play video games. In video games you want to get better and better, more advanced and complicated levels up to the highest level. And those are the top performers. But in investing, the best performers are playing at level one beginner pretty basic.
Jack:
I mean, Tori just mentioned it. She invests in VTI. That’s a diversified stock market portfolio. If tech stocks are doing well, you’re going to benefit because you own some of that. If tech stocks are doing poorly, you’re probably still going to be doing decently well, or at least better than the tech stocks, which are down, because you own stocks in food, and oil, and manufacturing, and cars. It’s a diversified portfolio that’s just shockingly better than everything else.
Nick:
It’s why our takeaway on investing is KISS. K-I-S-S. Keep it simple on stocks.
Jack:
The beginner investing strategy is actually outperforming the advanced strategy.
Nick:
Which is why there is only one exception, which is when Jack buys my son’s stock, it’s going to be Apple shares. So Yetis and Besties, thank you, Audible our presenting sponsor. Audible is the Library of Alexandria with audiobooks, audio podcasts and other audio exclusive titles we love listening to. Tori’s title is on Audible. And when Jack and I write a book, it’ll also be on Audible. And we actually, we do have a few book ideas. And so Audible, we should talk after this. We got [inaudible 00:54:27].
Jack:
Will we narrate it ourselves?
Nick:
Yes.
Jack:
Or will we ask Ben and Matt to do it?
Nick:
No, we can do it. Let’s do it.
Jack:
We are huge fans of listening and letting our imagination take off. And that’s what Audible is fantastic for. They have supported the show. What an amazing night we’ve had here. Thank you so much.
Nick:
So thank you to the Audible team for helping put this on. Thank you to Tori for being here and bringing some fantastic takeaways. And thank you to the Wondery team, Chelsea and Anna, for really making the magic happen here with some insanity, including the TBOY toys, and this wild Hollywood-style set we get to be in front of.
Jack:
So the night’s not over. We have an hour that Nick and I are going to stick around after this. After that, we’re going to Good Bar.
Nick:
We got the after party after this, Jack.
Jack:
If you join us, we’re going to rebrand it The Best Bar.
Nick:
It’s going to be the best bar.
Jack:
And before we wrap up, Nick and I never answered the question, what do we want our 64-year-old lives to look like?
Nick:
You’re right. We didn’t really answer Paul McCartney’s question, what do we want it to look like when we’re 64?
Jack:
The truth is, we want to still be doing this podcast.
Nick:
We want it to just look like this.
Jack:
And so this job does not feel like work to us. We are so lucky to have stumbled into this career. And it’s all thanks to you for listening to the show.
Nick:
So for episode 8,746 on Jack’s 64th birthday in March, we would love to be here with you.
Jack:
And we can’t wait for it. So thank you for being here with us and being a part of the show. We are celebrating a fantastic night tonight. And to anyone else celebrating something today, make it a TBOY, celebrate the wins.
Nick:
Celebrate the wins.
Jack:
Thank you all so much.
Nick:
Yetis, there is nothing like having a live audience. Thank you to Audible for making this beautiful event happen. [inaudible 00:56:41] beautiful because if you’re listening, you should watch on YouTube. The stage was an architectural marvel. It was beautiful.
Jack:
We had a 20-foot long TBOY sign.
Nick:
Unprecedented.
Jack:
In the meantime, you should check out all the amazing audio content from our sponsor, Audible, including from the guest of this episode, Tori Dunlap, her Financial Feminist is on Audible narrated by Tori herself. Audible, there’s more to imagine when you listen. And we’re back tomorrow with our regular Daily TBOY show, and that will be the best one yet.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much to The Best One Yet team for an incredible event. You can listen to The Best One Yet, wherever you’re listening right now. And we appreciate your support of the show. As always, we hope you have your kick ass week and we’ll see you very soon. Goodbye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant, research by Sarah Sciortino, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf, marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First $100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Sasha Bonnar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Kurronen, Daryl Ann Ingram, and Meghan Walker, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound.
A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, please visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
