Today’s guest needs no introduction…
…because I’m sure you’ve heard of him. The Points Guy, aka Brian Kelly, is joining us live in studio to talk about how he transformed his love for travel and financial management into a platform that helps millions of people around the world. We dive into everything from how reward programs have evolved over the years to the big changes the travel industry has seen since 2010.
In this interview he shares personal stories—especially how he navigated the stress of the 2008 financial crisis—and tons of practical tips for anyone looking to choose the right travel credit cards and maximize points and miles. We also cover common travel challenges like jet lag and flying with kids (something I know many of us have struggled with!).
Beyond that, we chat about how to be strategic with your travel bookings, why booking directly through the airline can often be better than using OTAs, and why travel insurance is such a lifesaver. If you’re hoping to get more bang for your buck (or points) the next time you take a trip, keep reading!
Key takeaways
Maximizing Points and Rewards Makes Travel More Accessible Than Ever
Brian emphasizes that we are in the “Platinum Age of Travel,” where consumers have unprecedented access to credit card rewards and travel perks. He explains how using transferable points and strategically choosing credit cards allows even everyday travelers—not just business executives—to fly and stay in luxury without breaking the bank.
Credit Cards Are More Than Just Rewards – They Offer Powerful Travel Protections
Many travelers overlook the built-in protections that premium credit cards provide, from trip delay reimbursements to purchase protections. Brian shares personal examples, like how his credit card covered a $1,300 chair his son ruined with a Sharpie. He stresses the importance of having a travel-friendly credit card that offers insurance, purchase protection, and lounge access.
Smart Booking Strategies Save Time, Money, and Headaches
Brian warns against relying on online travel agencies (OTAs) like Expedia and Kayak for booking flights and hotels, as they often limit flexibility and communication with airlines and hotels. He recommends booking directly with airlines whenever possible and leveraging top-tier travel advisors for luxury stays to unlock exclusive perks and better service.
Travel Is an Investment, and Flexibility is Key to Finding Deals
One of Brian’s top travel hacks is letting deals dictate your destinations rather than fixating on one place. Tools like Seats.Aero allow travelers to search for the best flight redemptions over an entire year, making it easier to travel first-class for a fraction of the cost. Being flexible with dates and locations maximizes value when using points and miles.
Think of Points as an Insurance Policy for Travel Emergencies
Travel mishaps happen—flight cancellations, lost passports, sudden family emergencies—but Brian argues that having a robust points balance can act as an emergency fund. He explains how last-minute cash fares can be astronomical, while award flights often have last-minute availability at lower redemption rates, making them a lifesaver in unexpected situations.
Solo Travel, Family Travel, and Travel Anxiety: How to Travel Well No Matter Your Situation
Brian covers everything from traveling with kids to overcoming flight anxiety. He provides reassurance that despite recent airline incidents, flying remains statistically incredibly safe. He also shares practical tips for families, such as using a credit card for trip insurance and knowing your rights when traveling with children.
Notable quotes
“Cheap can be expensive—use the right cards, have the right backing, and know how you want to travel.”
“The airlines don’t care if you complain on social media. But the right credit card can save you when they let you down.”
“People listening to this podcast—you are wanted by the banks.”
Brian’s Links:
Website: https://thepointsguy.com/
How to Win at Travel: https://thepointsguy.com/book/
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Meet Brian
Brian Kelly is the Founder of The Points Guy, the trusted travel media platform that has revolutionized the travel and loyalty industries through expert insight, innovative technology, and acclaimed rankings. From his beginnings in finance, Brian has used his expertise and passion to transform TPG from a personal blog to an unrivaled media powerhouse with over 11 million monthly visitors, a full team of contributors, and the introduction of the TPG App. Dubbed “The Man Who Turned Credit-Card Points Into an Empire” by The New York Times, Kelly’s dynamic personality, deep industry knowledge, and extensive global travels have inspired millions to make their travel dreams a reality.
Brian’s valued expertise has made him a regular on top morning shows such as TODAY Show, CBS Mornings, Good Morning America, and Kelly & Mark and news stations including CNN, MSNBC, ABC, Bloomberg, and more. Over the years, Brian’s impressive work has been recognized on AdWeek’s Young Influentials list and Travel & Leisure’s Most Notable People in Travel list, and he has been named as Forbes’ #1 Travel Influencer and an OUT100 recipient.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
Travelers, this episode is for you. If you want to travel more this year, especially without completely bankrupting yourself, this is the episode you need. This is one of the most valuable resources on traveling, traveling in luxury places, without breaking the budget. We are talking all things redeeming credit card points for free travel, how to travel more in 2025, and other tips you need to know before you get on an airplane with The Points Guy himself, Brian Kelly. Let’s get into it.
Welcome back, Financial Feminists. I’m so excited to see you as always. I’m Tori Dunlap. I’m a New York Times bestselling author. I fight the patriarchy by making you rich, and this is my favorite thing to do, is come into your ears and share some really actionable takeaways to help you better your life, better your money, and just feel like a better person all around.
And if you are down with that, if you enjoy this show, you can subscribe, you can send it to a friend who really needs to hear it. And especially for this episode, because we all know that although solo travel is great, we also love traveling with friends. So if you want to be the person who’s also able to travel for free and bring a buddy along, send this to your friend, your partner, your sister, your favorite coworker, so you can start traveling together.
I’m not just saying this because he’s a guest on the show and he’s a friend, this book is so valuable. And before you even listen to this episode, I want you adding it to your cart because this is the book you need if you’re trying to travel more in 2025. This is the episode you need to listen to if you’ve been bitten by the travel bug and you’re trying to get even more travel in a way that doesn’t completely bankrupt you this year.
Brian Kelly is the founder of The Points Guy. Yeah. Ever heard of it? The trusted travel media platform that has revolutionized the travel and loyalty industries through expert advice, innovative technology, and acclaimed rankings. From his beginnings in finance, Brian has used his expertise and passion to transform The Points Guy from a personal blog to an unrivaled media powerhouse with over 11 million monthly visitors, I am in that monthly visitor number, a full team of contributors and the introduction of The Points Guy app.
Dubbed, “The man who turned credit card points into an empire,” by the New York Times, Kelly’s dynamic personality, deep industry knowledge and extensive global travels have inspired millions to make their travel dreams a reality. We chatted all things how to win at travel, from how to use credit card points in their most effective way to get free travel. And no, it is not just for men in suits or people who travel all the time for business. That is the common thing I hear from people is they see me, they see Brian, and they go, “Well, you travel a lot for work. That’s the only way you’re able to do it.”
Nah, I want you living that luxury travel life even if you’re not a business traveler and you’ve never worn a suit in your life. We talk about flight anxiety, especially with a lot of the airline issues that have been going on recently and the tragedy that happened recently in DC. We talk about how to make sure you are managing your flight anxiety so it doesn’t cripple you, but also giving you tips and tricks to make flying the easiest experience possible. We talk about traveling as a family. Everything and anything is in this episode about traveling more this year. So let’s get into it.
But first a word from our sponsors.
Hi, Brian.
Brian Kelly:
Hi, Tori.
Tori Dunlap:
Tell me who you are, what you do, and why it’s so important.
Brian Kelly:
I am the founder of The Points Guy, which is a website that helps millions of people, not only travel better, but harness their financial life to squeeze out rewards to make life a little bit more fun. And I think we all need a little bit more fun these days.
Tori Dunlap:
Especially in 2025. I would like more fun, please.
Brian Kelly:
Ooh, it’s off with the bang, that’s for sure.
Tori Dunlap:
It really is. We’re recording this at the end of January and life is already insane. We’ve lived an entire year in 30 days. 31 days.
Brian Kelly:
Yes, I think we need to get used to that.
Tori Dunlap:
How did TPG come about? Give me the origin story because I think it’s one of the most interesting… I started my blog and that became her first hundred K. But you were one of the OGs back in the day.
Brian Kelly:
Yeah, so I started the blog in 2010. I had been working at Morgan Stanley. I started at Morgan Stanley in ’07, and I thought I was going to get rich working for Morgan Stanley. I was in HR, but my friends who were bankers at the time were like, “Once you get VP at a bank, doesn’t matter if you’re HR banking, you’re making good money.”
So in my twenties. Of course, 2008 hits. Chaos ensues. Luckily I never lost my job at Morgan Stanley, but when we want to talk about Sunday scaries, is I was on a team of eight recruiters and I was doing all the campus recruiting for technology. And at one point it was me. So I was just so stressed out. On Sunday, I would almost want to vomit because not only would I have to go out and recruit, but I would have to help with the RIFs, the reductions in force.
So I was living a really stressed out corporate America life and my silver lining was that I got to travel a ton. And I had an aha moment when my corporate Amex, I called and said, “Can I get the points from this?”
And I remember so vividly, “Mr. Kelly, you have to pay the $95 membership rewards fee, which most people don’t want to do.”
And meanwhile, I’m spending hundreds of thousands a month on career fairs. I’m flying in 50 students to do interview days at Morgan Stanley on my credit card.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Brian Kelly:
Paying for their hotels. So within a very short time, this is what I call my Points Rich/Cash Poor period of my life. I was broke, paycheck to paycheck, but banking so many points. And I had been doing points since the nineties. It was a weird thing my dad and I did. So all of a sudden I’m living this crazy lucrative lifestyle flying first class literally because I did not want to stay in New York. Because if I went out to a friend’s birthday dinner, my debit card could not even-
Tori Dunlap:
Cover it.
Brian Kelly:
… I was that broke.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Wow.
Brian Kelly:
So I was traveling on points because it was cheaper than normal life in Manhattan. And after a certain point, all my friends were like, “You do know what you’re doing is not normal.” Everyone’s like, “Wait, so you’re not on a trust fund?” They’re like, “Who’s the sugar daddy?”
Tori Dunlap:
You’re like, I am in first-class flights. And also I can’t pay for anything once I get off the plane.
Brian Kelly:
I’m taking the subway to fly Emirates first class. I flew with Madonna once. By the way, tip people. Never take your sleeping pill before the plane has taken off. That day I took an Ambien and I’m starting to doze. We of course get delayed and the last person that walks on is Madonna.
Tori Dunlap:
And you’re like half asleep and you’re like, that’s Madonna. I’m dreaming.
Brian Kelly:
My childhood icon. The Immaculate Collection. I mean I would rollerblade in the nineties to Madonna and she was in front of me. So I was battling my Ambien, trying to take it all in. So take the pill once the plane’s in the sky.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. So when we talk about points, miles, all of this stuff, I can hear the mental processing that’s going on for somebody listening. Which is, oh, well he had this job that allowed him to accumulate all of these points. I’m not a business traveler, I’m not in a suit. I don’t have a corporate card where I’m flying 50 kids out all the time.
Brian Kelly:
Yep.
Tori Dunlap:
So is this possible for the everyday average person?
Brian Kelly:
Absolutely. The industry has changed dramatically. So from 2010 when I started The Points Guy, it was Amex. Chase hadn’t really even launched the Sapphire, which is a game changer. Capital One was essentially cash back. City had a couple random cards.
Fast-forward to 2025. We are living, in the book I call it the Platinum Age of Travel. I firmly, I’m an optimist in life. I’m thankful for that because we need optimism, but travel’s incredible these days. I firmly refute the narrative that everything is terrible. Back in the day, they had fine China.
Back in the day you had to be rich. Full stop. Everyone was dressed up. Yeah, that’s just because elite people were the only ones allowed to travel.
Tori Dunlap:
And we’re not talking millionaires. We’re talking a lot of money.
Brian Kelly:
Lots of money. So yeah, you had turkey dinners in economy, but it wasn’t actually economy. You were paying for first class. Economy class did not exist. Today, you can travel the world incredibly affordably, safely. The world is connected like never before with amazing new aircraft. And we’re recording this shortly after the terrible crash in DC. But even with that, it had been 16 years before there was a fatal commercial airline crash in the United States. Travel is so incredibly safe.
So I am optimistic and back to your point, but today there are so many credit cards the banking industry is battling for the consumer. People listening to this podcast, you are wanted by the banks. Even if you’re not wealthy yet, you’re probably what the banks call a HENRY. You’re a high-earning but not rich yet, but they want to get you young and they will entice you with signup bonuses, category bonuses, and perks that for a very small annual fee you could be reaping in an extraordinary amount of value from the ecosystem.
So I would argue today, even though there are challenges where the cost of flights in the terms of how many miles and points you need to redeem, yes, that alone has gone up. But my friends, this is not a one-sided issue. You can earn points in incredible ways, through rent, like you never could before. So it is an incredible time, especially for young people who want to build their credit, travel more.
And frankly, we’re all looking at inflation. Many of our job salaries are not going up. We need to learn how to create value that exists today within our ecosystem. Take ownership, make sure our cash is earning money, make sure that every dollar we spend is getting us value back.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
And in America, the US is the most lucrative country in the world, the most competitive when it comes to credit cards. You’ve got your fair… There’s 15 big banks all with very valuable cards that want your business. And so when you learn how to identify the best cards and start accruing credit cards, maximizing every dollar you spend, that’s where this game can be won.
And I firmly believe if you are good with your finances, if you’re not going to get into credit card debt by getting a new card, I’m very, very clear with that. You don’t win it this game if you are going to get a new credit card and spend more than you would’ve.
Tori Dunlap:
Just rack it up for the points.
Brian Kelly:
Get into debt. But it’s an exciting game that still can be played. So if you’ve been ignoring it up until this point, I highly urge you to reconsider.
Tori Dunlap:
And it is something, again, for everybody listening, you don’t have to travel for business to do this. You don’t have to even own a business. You don’t have to be on a plane every other week in order to take advantage of this.
Brian Kelly:
You need to eat, you need to pay rent, you need to buy things. All of which we do.
Tori Dunlap:
Everybody does.
Brian Kelly:
And the cost of points and credit cards has been built into our economy in the US. Yes, there are some vendors that might charge you a fee and in general, I don’t recommend paying just to accrue point. However, I’ll say this. On the topic of if my vendor charges me 2% to use my credit card, I do it, because not only are you going to get points that are probably going to make that break even, but the value of credit is protections.
Anything goes wrong with that purchase, you’ve got the backing of a credit card company. And I really feel firmly people need to be educated more on the perks that come along with these cards. My son just ruined a piece of furniture with a Sharpie and that $1,300 chair, because I bought it within 90 days on the right credit card, the Capital One Venture X, I’m going to get a brand new chair sent to me.
Tori Dunlap:
For no additional costs.
Brian Kelly:
$1,300. So protection and points. In general, you want to avoid paying that surcharge. But even when you do or if you’re going to get a villa with your friends abroad and they say wire money or there’ll be a 3% fee, pay the fee. Get the double points and the peace of mind.
Because if you show up and it’s a dump or it doesn’t exist, if you’ve wired that money, you are 100%, you’re never going to get it back.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
What I talk a lot about in the book is cheap can be expensive. Use the right cards, have the right backing, and that’s how you want to travel these days.
Tori Dunlap:
Before we go any further, let’s define some terminology because I think it’s really important and we’re going to act like someone’s never heard this before. Okay. So let’s talk about perks versus points versus rewards. So, perks first.
Brian Kelly:
Yes. Well, do you mind if we just start with the rewards-
Tori Dunlap:
Sure. Yeah, let’s do that.
Brian Kelly:
… ecosystem. So when it comes to a credit card, there are three main types of rewards you can get.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep.
Brian Kelly:
The first is cash back. Pretty simple. There’s a couple different flavors of cash back cards. You have your ones that’ll have rotating categories that you need to figure out every quarter, blah, blah, blah.
Tori Dunlap:
That was my first ever credit card. 5% on meals for the first…
Brian Kelly:
Chase Freedom. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, it was a Discover card. That was my first one.
Brian Kelly:
Discover, which is great first card for beginners. And then there’s just a straight-up cash back. If you want cash back, you can basically get 2% these days.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. That was my second card.
Brian Kelly:
Yeah, the City Double Cash is the kind of gold standard, so you can get 2% back of everything you spend. Solid, put it towards your investments, put it towards a trip, max flexibility.
The second type of rewards are co-brand rewards where you’re going to get a card with an airline, hotel. And the loyalty currency you get is in that one currency. The Delta Amex, the Chase United card.
Tori Dunlap:
The Marriott card.
Brian Kelly:
You’re earning just a single type of currency, but it comes with perks that can be very valuable such as checked bags and companion passes, elite status which is now becoming more important to have to spend.
But the third type of points that… I think everyone should have a transferable points credit card. Transferable points cards are issued by a bank. You earn into a currency that allows you to transfer to a number of different partners, airlines or hotels. And just like you want to diversify your retirement portfolio because you don’t want to overextend yourself, one stock goes down or up, could be great, could be horrible, that’s what’s happening with the airline currencies.
Airlines are changing their programs to the point where the US government under the Biden administration actually started to do an investigation into is this potentially unfair? Where the consumers just never know what they’re going to get.
So these transferable points currencies are the most valuable, but their perks are not airline specific. So you’re generally not getting free checked bags or elite status, but they have a host of other perks as well like getting into the credit card lounge or getting a fee rebate or streaming credit, etc. So points are the currency that you earn that allows you to redeem, but the perks are the benefits that come along with the card that could save you hundreds or thousands of dollars including, these days because we can get into this later, but there are no consumer protections really in travel. Airlines have written the rules.
The DOT just within the last year stated that when consumers can get their money back if an airline cancels your flight, but they’re not-
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you previous guest, Pete Buttigieg. Thank you, Secretary Buttigieg.
Brian Kelly:
… I do believe he enacted a lot of very pro-customer rules.
Tori Dunlap:
He got a lot done.
Brian Kelly:
We have a lot to do still. TBD on where our new administration goes with that. Like I said before, I’m an optimist and I’m just choosing to hope that they will look out for the consumer.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
But basically, credit cards fill a very important gap where the airlines will inevitably let you down.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
And they don’t care if you complain on social media. Even if you have millions of followers, “I’m never going to fly you again. You better…”
They don’t care because they’ve consolidated so much. There’s only a couple major airlines in the US-
Tori Dunlap:
I want to yell at United right now, but I’m going to refrain from doing that.
Brian Kelly:
… So credit cards can provide a valuable… If your flight’s delayed, canceled, instead of having to wait in line and beg for a free voucher at the Motel 6, you use the right credit card and you’ve got to spend a night in an airport, you can get a nice room at the Westin or whatever hotel you want. Get an Uber, use resort pass to go spend your seven-hour layover at a pool instead of in a crowded airport.
So the perks, I think, are where people really undervalue the game of credit cards.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I mentioned this to you before, but I had my phone. I had brought brand new pretty iPhone 15 before my trip. Went to London. Someone stole it right out from under me. And I was like, well that was a thousand dollars phone. I’m out a thousand dollars.
No, I was not because I have cell phone protection. So I got I think 800. So not the full cost of the phone, but pretty damn close and was able to buy another phone.
Brian Kelly:
Yeah. And what’s the annual fee on that card? Right?
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Paid for it easy. Paid for the annual fee for a couple of years.
Brian Kelly:
I was filming once in Iceland. I had a brand new Montclair jacket, $2,000. And I left it in the craziness of filming and I just called Amex. No problem. 2000 off my bill, no questions asked. I cannot stress to you people. Everyone, look at your existing credit cards and if you don’t have cards with good flight delay and purchase protection, get yourself a card.
And often the cards that do have those have huge sign up bonuses and great transfer partners. So I really stress to people, many people today have travel strategy from a decade ago, pre-pandemic. The world has shifted, loyalty’s shifting, and I think it’s critical for people to constantly evaluate, are the airlines that I’m flying serving my needs are those credit cards?
And the good news is there’s so many good ones to choose from.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. You’ve mentioned before in your work that you view points almost as insurance.
Brian Kelly:
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap:
And it sounds like situations where you can’t get yourself out. Okay, flight gets delayed, all of that. I also view it as insurance of I had to make a last minute trip. Someone in my family is sick. I have to leave a vacation early because I don’t want to be here anymore. And it’s almost like an additional emergency fund besides hopefully what you’ve saved in a savings account.
Can we talk a bit more about how points are like an insurance policy?
Brian Kelly:
Absolutely. There is a peace of mind that comes from having a healthy points balance.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
If you’re in Europe and you need to come home a family member’s sick, the airlines will fleece you.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
Last minute, one-way tickets. They don’t care-
Tori Dunlap:
Middle seats.
Brian Kelly:
… if your family member’s sick. There’s no real bereavement fares if someone sadly passes. At the same time while airlines are gouging last minute customers who they hope are corporate customers that will have to get to that meeting and pay, so fares are really high, there’s a beautiful phenomenon that many people don’t realize is at the same time they’re opening up tons of award space at the very cheapest levels. Because the airlines, they want every single seat full and they want to gouge people last minute who are desperate, cash. But at the same time they’ll open up saver level seats to just fill for those using frequent flyer miles.
So for people who have flexible schedules, who have points and know how to redeem on partners and use technology, that’s another piece. When I started The Points Guy in 2010, you had to be an expert. It would take you months to become an intermediate level or years to really understand, okay, with my Delta Miles, Delta.com used to show no partners. So you have to use wonky apps and tools or call and then cobble together all their Sky team partner availability.
Today there are apps. And really within the last three years there’s been a proliferation of apps that do it all for you. Point.me is the premier one, and if you have an Amex or bill card, it’s free. It’s normally about a hundred dollars a year to be a member. But what Point.me does, it’s just like Google Flights for buying a flight. Point.me, if you put in Seattle to Paris, it will scan all your points and possible transfer partners and tell you, you may see the Delta flight for 600,000 miles. They may have the Air France flight for a hundred thousand miles. And so Point.me will do, in a minute or two, all the searching, what’s available. Hey, don’t pay Amex 800,000 points to buy the ticket. Transfer to Air France for a hundred.
There’s another amazing tool, Seats.aero, A-E-R-O. This is a tool for people if you’re flexible. And one of the best ways to save money traveling these days is by letting the deals shape where you go, especially with points. So what Seats.aero will allow you to do, say your dream is to go to Dubai. Dubai is fabulous and you want to fly Emirates first class. $28,000 flight. However, Seats.aero will let you, if you have the pro membership, you can pull JFK or LA, whatever city you’re from, to Dubai and you can scan an entire year and it’ll show you all the dates in the next year that you can fly.
So if you’re flexible, I do this all the time. I will plan my trips based on the cheapest best availability. And when you start doing these strategies, your points go really far. When you’re getting a hundred thousand points just for getting a card. When you start maximizing every dollar and you’re earning… One of my points commandments is earning more than one point per dollar for everything, which is possible because there are cards out there that give 2X. This is when you have a sustainable way to travel the world. And when your flights and hotels are free, you can spend that money on the experiences.
And it helps you travel better or save that money. Start paying off the student loans more. So you can still travel, because I know so many people, young people these days, such high bills. They want to travel but they can’t justify not paying off these high interest rates. But I firmly believe when you get the points game down… In a positive aspect of getting new cards responsibly is your credit score actually goes up the more available credit you have.
You preach it beautifully, but financial independence and understanding how credit scores work, and in the points game you get rewarded for that. It’s like positive reinforcement. Like, oh, I’m going to be maniacal about my credit score. And when you see it start to creep up, you get a card, you pay it off, you get those points and you can go to Italy with your friends, but then your score’s also going up. So whenever you do get a mortgage in a couple years, you’re going to get locked in for lower rates. And that’s why I love this ecosystem and I want people to pay attention to it.
Tori Dunlap:
And again, for folks listening, you don’t have to fly first class, right? It does, especially for the average person, it might take you a while to build up enough points to be able to afford a $28,000 flight with points. You can fly economy to get home for the holidays.
Brian Kelly:
Okay, and let me also warn you. Don’t fly first class. I joke about this, but it’s kind of true.
Tori Dunlap:
Tell me more.
Brian Kelly:
Because if you just love travel and you’re so excited to get on a plane and you sleep on a plane anyway, if your knees aren’t into the… Stay in coach. Because the minute, and trust me, the minute you turn left on the plane…
Tori Dunlap:
The moment, the first time I ever turned left, that was such a big day.
Brian Kelly:
And it’s very hard to unsee.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
Oh, I’m welcomed here.
Tori Dunlap:
Truly. I don’t feel like cattle being herded.
Brian Kelly:
Ooh, I can have a drink before we… Yeah. And it is a curse, though, when you taste that, you open up that Pandora’s box of, ooh, I like it here. But economy flights can be really expensive, especially if you like going to far-flung destinations. If you’ve got family in India, those economy flights could be thousands of dollars. And actually there’s an incredible amount of award space.
In my book I also teach, there’s ways to stretch the value of your points through what we call routing rules. So a lot of airline frequent flyer programs will let you stop over. Air France, for example, stop over in Paris for four days and then continue on to Istanbul for the same exact amount of points as if you would’ve flown to Paris.
Tori Dunlap:
Iceland Air, infamously. Right?
Brian Kelly:
Yes. They encourage the stop-over. The Middle Eastern Airlines. So this is a great way where you can kind of get two destinations in one for the same amount of points. Air Canada, Aeroplan’s another great one.
Tori Dunlap:
They do it, too.
Brian Kelly:
If you want to fly to Asia, Air Canada will let you stop in Europe, go skiing, and then continue on the Thailand for just 5,000 more miles.
Tori Dunlap:
And that’s cheap, really.
Brian Kelly:
And you can do around the world trips. That’s more advanced, but it’s really fun when you… This miles and points thing? I want people to not just glaze over and be like, this is too complicated. It’s really fun when you can dig in.
Tori Dunlap:
And it feels like a game.
Brian Kelly:
It is a game. And I love the New York Times games. I wake up every day in Wordle.
Tori Dunlap:
Me too.
Brian Kelly:
I wake up. But the game of points is even more fun because you get a prize, right? You get to travel and not feel guilty about going into debt or having to take from other important areas of your budget.
Tori Dunlap:
So, someone’s looking to get started. How do they begin? Do they just focus on a specific airline? Do they do the more versatile options? I have my own opinion about this and I imagine we share the same opinion.
Brian Kelly:
The first thing when you get started is just understand your FICO score. Understand where you’re at with credit. And if you don’t have a big credit history, which many people don’t because we’re also taught credit’s bad.
Tori Dunlap:
Credit cards are scary.
Brian Kelly:
Meanwhile, university students, I mean 18, if you have your parents add you as an additional card holder, you can inherit instantly their lifelong credit history. You can have a credit history that’s older than you.
But if your parents have great credit and they can even set your additional card to zero so you don’t spend on it, but you can inherit instantly and have your score shoot up.
Tori Dunlap:
Smart.
Brian Kelly:
But understand your FICO score. If you are above 700, in general, it’s sort of fair game. Some credit cards, if you have very small credit history, you may need to get a Discover Card. No annual fee, student card. If you can’t even get a student card, you can get a secured credit card from a bank where you deposit $500. That’s your credit line. Spend and pay it off.
Your FICO score, the top two factors are paying your bills on time and your debt to credit utilization. So you just do that for a couple months and if you’re debt free, your score will go up dramatically. So when it comes to getting the right card, I’m a big believer in these transferable points currencies. So I would start a Chase Sapphire Preferred is a $95 card, double points on travel and dining. And that travel category isn’t just airlines and hotels. That’s parking, tolls-
Tori Dunlap:
Uber.
Brian Kelly:
… public transit, Uber, Uber Eats. So it’s a pretty wide category. The Chase points are really valuable, simple to use program.
Or, for no annual fee, if you pay rent the Bilt credit card, B-I-L-T. In full disclosure, I help start that company, am an investor in it, but there’s no annual fee. You can earn points on rent and because you’re paying what is probably your largest payment on the credit rails, as long as you’re paying it off every month like you would if you sent a check, your credit score will go up. And the Bilt points are really, really valuable.
Tori Dunlap:
They’re super valuable.
Brian Kelly:
And let me reiterate, you don’t have to pay the processing fee that many rent payment platforms will charge you. So no annual fee card, no fee on rent, and the points are… At The Points Guy, we value Bilt points the same as Chase points for no fee. So get started there and then if you do travel a certain airline, it can very well make sense to get the co-brand if you want free check bags, priority boarding, et cetera.
I want to urge people though, just because you fly an airline, do not put all of your spend on that airline card. This is a mistake I see a lot of people making. “I live in Dallas. I fly American. I’m just going to get the American card and put everything on it.”
You’re losing flexibility as if you would’ve put your spend on the Chase cards where you have lots of other options when it comes time to redeem. If you’ve got a boatload of American miles-
Tori Dunlap:
You’re just locked in.
Brian Kelly:
… and all your friends are going to Dubai and you’re like, “Ooh, I want to fly Emirates.”
So often people are like, how do I take my three million American miles and fly Emirates? You can’t, right? You’ve already agreed to have a much more restrictive. So yeah, so having a transferable card and then yeah, maybe. And the hotel cards are great that generally they give a free night that is worth more than the annual fee. But once again, their base earning’s not great. And the hotel points in general, they’ve been watered down a lot.
Tori Dunlap:
Huge.
Brian Kelly:
If you’re flying one airline and saying a certain hotel, having those cards for perks can make sense. But I highly encourage most people to put a majority of their spend on a transferable points card that will open up a ton of opportunities.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. And you don’t need me saying this, listeners, but I completely agree.
Okay, as we’re rounding out the point conversation, can you give me some of your 10 point commandments?
Brian Kelly:
Number one is try not to pay extra for points. The airlines will, and generally, just be aware when you’re being asked to buy more points at check-in, generally those offers are not good. Buying points can make sense when you’re an expert in a program and you know how much value you’re getting. When for a fact you can get more than… Most airlines charge two cents per point. If you can get tons more in value and you know how to use that program. But if you don’t in general, don’t speculatively buy points because points currencies do go down over time.
And others don’t hoard points. A lot of people have… There’s a psychological aspect to points hoarding. Lots of very smart people that I know do it.
Tori Dunlap:
I have a million Chase points right now.
Brian Kelly:
So I would just say use points over time. Don’t let them just sit. Luckily your Chase points won’t devalue as much as some of the other airlines, but their partners over time devalue. So my main emphasis is put points to good use. Don’t squander them right away because you’re hearing me say, well, Brian said I need to redeem for gift cards.
In general, liquidating points, airline miles are best for air travel, hotel points for hotels. In general, but have a plan in place and actively put those points into use.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. You ultimately wrote this book to save people money and time. What are the biggest time and money wasters that you see travelers, or the mistakes you see, travelers make?
Brian Kelly:
So this book so much more than points. I mean I think the juicy chapters are earning points, redeeming points, and perks. And I’m proud of those. That will give you the lay of the land help you think differently. Travelers today are making mistakes by, I think, where they book travel.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
I think most people are booking through… A lot of people book through online travel agencies. And years ago they provided great utility by allowing people to compare and contrast different airlines.
Tori Dunlap:
Can we give examples? Are we talking like Kayak? Expedia?
Brian Kelly:
Kayak, Expedia. And let me be clear, I’m not anti-OTA necessarily, but I only recommend booking through them when you can get a great deal that you can’t see elsewhere. Because what is happening these days is airlines want you to book directly with them. And if you book through certain OTA, some are better than others, but certain OTAs, they don’t want you communicating with the airline. You’re their customer.
And this becomes a big problem when airlines change flight times, change the aircraft. You’re not getting the communication. There’s a roadblock. So many people show up to their flights, “Why am I in a middle seat? Six months ago I chose an aisle.”
Well, that airline had changed their flight type several times. If you book directly, they would’ve sent you an email, but unfortunately the email never got to you. But the biggest thing is when that flight’s delayed or canceled, this kills me. People will say, or even when there’s weather waivers, a big storm coming, airlines will offer waivers saying hey, just rebook your flights in the future so if you don’t want to fly into a storm.
However, if you book through an online travel agency, you have to go through that travel agency.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, you’re their customer. You’re not a customer of Delta or Alaska, you’re a Kayak, Expedia, Booking.com.
Brian Kelly:
And some of those have horrible customer service.
Tori Dunlap:
Same thing for hotels, too, I’ve experienced.
Brian Kelly:
And a flight can be canceled. There might be another flight one hour later. If you book with the airline one button in the app or the agent puts you on the next flight,
Tori Dunlap:
Yep.
Brian Kelly:
You’re on your flight home, you made it home that night. Often if you book through an OTA, they’ll say, unfortunately, you have to call the OTA. You might be on hold for two hours. And this happens a lot.
Also, people make mistakes and I think it’s criminal how the airlines do this, but they still will price 50-minute layovers. No one, if you’re listening to me today, never book a 50-minute layover. I see people doing this on their way to a cruise where if they miss their flight…
And I don’t blame consumers, Airlines should not, with however many delays our air traffic system… I mean delays are a part of life. I do not recommend any domestic flight with at least two hour layover, two hours to give yourself some padding.
Tori Dunlap:
Because that’s helpful for me. I didn’t know that. Because I’m-
Brian Kelly:
Two hours.
Tori Dunlap:
… like an hour 15 minutes, that’s fine.
Brian Kelly:
And the problem is these days flights will be sold out the rest of the… So if you really need to get where you’re going, here’s a little tip hack that I do. If I really need to get somewhere, back to the point of points being insurance policies. I book a separate flight later in the day on a different carrier using my miles because one of the best rules that came out of the pandemic was that all the major US airlines now allow you to cancel your points Reservations free of charge up until departure.
So you’re on one airline, you’ve got to get to a wedding and if you’re not there, you’re going to be …
Tori Dunlap:
SOL. Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
So you could book a different flight later that day and if that flight does get canceled or delayed, you’ve already got back up. Where that flight might already be sold out, but you booked your flight. But if your flight goes out on time, just remember you can cancel your flight, get all your miles points, taxes back free of charge.
So really using points of miles is like booking refundable flights.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s so smart.
Brian Kelly:
And maybe you don’t do it in advance. That’s a lot for a lot of people to handle. But when you’re at the airport and you get that dreaded, your flight’s delayed 20 minutes, 40, 90. You know what’s going to happen here? There’s probably something mechanical. The minute I get that 20 minute delay, I’m already on my phone and booking other options because I know others are going to start doing the same.
And that’s the problem. When you wait in line for an hour to speak to an agent, “Hey, get me to the next…”
Those agents will say, “We can’t get you out until tomorrow. You can fly standby on other flights.”
What you should be doing is just rebooking yourself on another airline because now with the new DOT rules, you will get a refund for that original flight. So I think people make mistakes booking through the wrong channels.
With hotels specifically, you can’t earn hotel loyalty points when you book through an OTA. Yeah, and I interviewed hotel executives and most hotels will put their OTA guests bottom of the line. So if the hotel’s oversold, your OTA guess is you’re not getting a room or you’re getting the worst room. Their direct booking customers, they make more money. They have to pay 20% to an online travel agency. So when they’re looking at all their guests, you’re their most unprofitable guest.
And most people just don’t realize that. So when the price is the same, and many hotels have price match guarantees, so even if you see a cheap price on an OTA, you can just call the hotel. Nine times out of 10 they’re going to match it or even give you extra. So use the OTAs for pricing and if you get a bang up deal that you can’t find anywhere else, but just understand the risks that go along it.
And that’s what this book, to me, is educating people on. I’m not telling you what to do, every situation is personal. But understand when you book certain ways, you’re foregoing things. Now I will say in the hotel space, luxury hotels never book direct. Because luxury travel advisors are the way to go. So there’s a network of you’re going on your honeymoon, you’re going to Hawaii, and you might think, let me just go to Fourseasons.com. I’m going to book my beautiful expensive honeymoon trip and I’m splurging.
Booking directly with Four Seasons is awful because top-notch travel advisors, so Virtuoso agents, they will give you the same price sometimes even third night free plus tons of perks. Plus the travel advisor business is huge and hotels cater to the top travel advisors. Because think about it, you booked through a top advisor who gives this hotel millions of dollars of business. Something goes wrong, they didn’t give you a great room. Instead of going to the front desk and begging, you call your travel advisor who gives that hotel tons of business. They call the head of sales and say-
Tori Dunlap:
They’re not happy
Brian Kelly:
… “My client is not happy. You’re going to make my client happy.”
And that hotel, instead of just thinking, oh, I might get one bad Trip Advisor review, they’re not going… And I talk to hotels, they’re like, we do not mess with the top travel advisors because they will wreak havoc. They won’t send new guests. So you have the power.
I guess in travel it’s about understanding your power and gaining more of it. Booking through the right channels, having the credit cards on your side. The airlines are cheap, but the credit cards will reimburse you for things. So that’s where I think people are making mistakes, by not understanding where the money’s being made and how they can team up with the biggest partners to make sure they’re getting treated the best and getting the best prices.
Tori Dunlap:
Your hack about booking another flight with points reminds me. Our mutual friend, Janelle, who is also going to be a guest on a show. I was going to Australia and didn’t realize the rule that my passport had to be good for at least six months. So it had not expired and was not going to be expired by the time I left, but a lot of countries say no, it needs to be good for at least six months. And I had a total panic about it because this was 2022. If I submitted my passport and did the whole process, there was no guarantee I was getting my passport in time.
And so I call her because she’s my travel friend and I’m like, “Janelle, help me out.”
And she goes, “Here’s what you’re going to do. You’re going to take your miles. You’re going to go book a flight to Mexico that leaves in two weeks.”
So then you can go to the passport agency and go, “My flight leaves in two weeks.” Because that’s When you can get an in-person appointment.
You’re going to say, “I’m going to Mexico, please process my passport.” I had to pay a little extra money to process it quickly.
And then she’s like, “And then just cancel your flight.”
Brian Kelly:
Yep. Free of charge, everything back.
Tori Dunlap:
I was like, what? This passport hack is so smart. Because yeah, if I didn’t get my passport back…
Brian Kelly:
You’d be biting your nails, praying.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, so stressed.
Brian Kelly:
So much stress for weeks.
Tori Dunlap:
And wondering, am I getting this back in time? Am I even going to get to go? And I was going with my friend and so is she going to be SOL? She can’t go with me. Oh, my gosh.
And yeah, Janelle was just like, “Book it for two weeks.”
Brian Kelly:
There’s so many rules in the travel. If you have kids and your kid’s going to be an unaccompanied minor, the airlines will issue a gate pass so you can walk your child to the gate. So many parents say goodbye to their kids at security and hope for the best. And there actually have been kids who have gotten on the wrong plane.
So ask the airline for a gate pass so you can accompany your kid to the gate. So many people are like, I didn’t know that. So this book is so many of those, what do you do when your passport’s stolen? What are some things you should keep in your digital identity online so if that happens?
So many people don’t think about the simple things they could have stored in an iCloud. If they need to go to an embassy, that will dramatically make your life easier.
Tori Dunlap:
Email it to yourself even. I have photos of both myself and my partner. And anybody I travel with frequently, I’ve all of their photos of the passports in my email. So if I need to access them, I can.
Brian Kelly:
And I will just say on this topic of protecting yourself, travel insurance. So I for many years was, “I’m fine. I don’t need travel insurance. I’m an expert, I have enough miles, I can get myself out of there.”
But nowadays, especially internationally, I highly recommend quality travel insurance. You can get yearly packages for several hundred dollars if you travel a lot. But even if you want to ensure you’re going on a family trip, got a big villa in Italy, a lot of times you need to pay in advance, non-refundable six months. Cruises, safaris, you’re shelling out a lot. And life happens. Disasters happen. Good travel insurance is like 5% of the total cost of your trip and it can cover you if you get a new job. If someone in your family gets sick.
A mistake I see people making is assuming that if something happens to them, okay, the airlines/hotels will certainly give me a refund. They won’t. When you agree to a non-refundable rate, and in the book I talk about everyone should read the contract of carriage with airlines. It lays out the rules. So you should understand when you should protect yourself. Insure yourself. It’s 5% of the cost of the trip. It’s a rounding error and it gives you that peace of mind.
And more importantly, when something goes wrong, if you’re asking for a favor, it’s important to know that. So many people will lash out at airlines, “Well, my uncle’s sick. You should refund me.”
And they would be doing you a favor if they did that. And some airline agents will, but not to jerks. So I think having that mentality of understanding when you’re asking for a favor. Because I watch, I’m such a people watcher in the airport, and I’m like, “Oh, they’re approaching this so wrong.”
By the way, they don’t care if you’re never going to fly Spirit again. They don’t care.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Yeah. You should be polite for people regardless.
Brian Kelly:
Period.
Tori Dunlap:
But especially if you want something.
Brian Kelly:
It’s strategically important to you.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
And if you’re ever… One of my tips is HUCA, hang up call again. If you’re on with an agent who doesn’t know what the heck they’re doing and there’s a lot of them out there. Look, there’s always going to be new employees. Do not keep ramming your head into a wall. Say, “Got to go. Thank you so much for your help today. Appreciate it.”
Stop. Take a deep breath. Get a coffee. Call back again. You might get the agent who’s a veteran. Be nice to them. “Hey, I need your help with X, Y, X.”
Don’t just keep going at it. Some people think it’s sport to argue with the phone agent and it’s…
Tori Dunlap:
Looking at my dad.
Brian Kelly:
It’s not productive.
Tori Dunlap:
You just had your second child. Congratulations.
Brian Kelly:
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, so traveling with kids. How do we do this?
Brian Kelly:
I thought I knew everything about travel until I had kids.
Tori Dunlap:
And then you had kids.
Brian Kelly:
Wow. It’s pretty wild. And I have an entire chapter on the book that will take you from pregnancy, Baby Moons, where to sit on the plane, tips on traveling while pregnant for health and safety. First I will say is I highly encourage if you’re a traveler and think that you have to stop traveling because you have kids, you don’t.
I started traveling three months. My son was vaccinated. I felt comfortable. I always do some research, know where the healthcare facilities are. Traveling with kids is amazing. And even in the beginning it’s really easy the first year or so. It’s not until they really start walking and on planes where it can be challenging. And even when it is, I’ll just say most every other country in the world is far more child-friendly.
The US is one of the most child unfriendly places to travel globally. You go to Portugal and they will take you to the front of the immigration line if you have a small child. Italy, they have amazing family travel lanes that actually have few people in them. They don’t just, in JFK, send you to a gigantic line that doesn’t move. So I highly encourage people to travel if they want to. Of course, if you’re not comfortable, don’t.
But it can be very confusing, especially with safety. So I interviewed Leah Chousso, who’s an amazing, she’s a child passenger safety technician. There’s actually certified people who can help choose car seat versus lap. And there’s pros and cons to each. So it can be very dizzying. At the end of the day as a parent, like anything, you’ve got to go with your best decision and understand the options. And that’s what I try to highlight in the book.
But if you’re prepared, always bring extra snacks, activities, and most importantly, just try to be stress-free. Your kids pick up on you and give yourself grace. The best behaved kids will still scream on a plane. And anyone out there who believes kids don’t belong on planes, I hate to break it to you, but a plane is public transportation. If you are adamant on who can and cannot fly on your aircraft, I encourage you to charter your own. Then you can control the manifest.
But baby, if you’re flying, if you’re going on a bus, on a subway, on a commercial airplane, you don’t have that right. And instead of being snarky and assuming the worst, like these parents don’t know how to… The kids crying has nothing to do with parenting. So instead of just being rude and giving glares help people. Once again, being nice will strategically help you. Even smiling at a parent, helping them lift something.
Tori Dunlap:
They’re already so nervous. They don’t want to piss you off and they’re just trying to do their best.
Brian Kelly:
Yep. And we were all kids one day. So just have a little grace.
Tori Dunlap:
And I will say, too, with your point about a lot of other countries being more kid-friendly, I think the culture is often different as well. I think in a lot of other countries they view parenting as a village. It’s not just the parent responsibility.
And so I don’t know if you’ve seen these videos of TikToks of random strangers being like, “Hey, I’ll take your child and I’ll bounce him on my knee for 20 minutes so you can go to the bathroom.” So nice.
Brian Kelly:
I’ve experienced that in the Caribbean. Amazing hotel. The staff. I mean, my son is a ham, and every hotel we go to, everyone’s eating out of the palm of his hand. And yeah, I mean you’re at a breakfast buffet and the amazing waitress who we knew the whole week, she begged me, she’s like, “Can I please take your son?”
And he loves it. And I think it’s great for kids to experience different cultures and just have it known. Different people, different foods. It’s natural. My son, I’m really proud. He’s very verbal. He eats a lot of good foods. And I do believe him living in an environment where he’s constantly seeing, learning, meeting new people, is setting him up for successful life.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I think so too. And yeah, get yourself some good noise-canceling headphones and be kind. And yes, we’ve all been behind a screaming baby for eight hours and I agree it’s the worst, but who has it even worse than you do? The parent. And probably the child because screaming for a reason. Their ears won’t pop or they’re just in an uncomfortable environment. Yeah, I have so much empathy for parents.
Brian Kelly:
And by the way, ear popping? Always feed your kid if possible on takeoff or a pacifier. And then they also have, even for adults, ear planes. So they are game changing if your ears-
Tori Dunlap:
I have to wear them every single time. My eardrum ruptured last year.
Brian Kelly:
… Yep. It’s adults, too.
Tori Dunlap:
Tips for traveling as a family versus just solo or as a couple. You’ve given some already, but anything else?
Brian Kelly:
Yeah. I think traveling as a family, choosing the right hotels. You want to choose hotels that are child-friendly and some… You can get the hint where it’s no kids at the pool or here.
Tori Dunlap:
There’s definitely honeymoon destinations that are like, I don’t want to see a child here for my five days.
Brian Kelly:
But you’d be shocked. Most even luxury hotels are so accommodating of kids.
Tori Dunlap:
They really are.
Brian Kelly:
I mean, Dean gets tents in the room and toys. And hotels are really good with having cribs, bottle warmers. And my tip is leave a lot at home. Take the toy they love. Always have toys and extra snacks, double the amount you think you’ll need. Extra changes of clothes, not just for you, but also your baby.
As your kids get older… When I was 12, my parents let me plan our trip to the Cayman Islands, which set off this kind of chain of reactions that led me here today and giving responsibility. But for younger and teens, give them responsibility planning on the trip. Even if it goes horribly awry, I think it teaches kids valuable lessons and budgeting and trying to figure out what information on the internet is to be trusted and what isn’t. I think you can learn so much.
I’ve learned so many of my life skills from traveling through the tough moments.
Tori Dunlap:
Your resiliency gets built when you travel. A hundred percent. Yeah, I think that’s so smart.
We were talking about, unfortunately, the flight that crashed and the deaths that happened. I think anybody who has flight anxiety is extremely anxious on a normal day. Hearing something like that is just, I’m never getting on a plane again.
Brian Kelly:
Yeah. How could it happen? Are the systems in place sufficient? So I actually have an entire chapter of the 15 dedicated to fear of flying. I luckily do not have it, but I know so many people, I’ve dated people with near crippling fear of flying. And to me logically flying, and I have a stat in the book that I want people to hear, that it is so safe. It’s hard to even quantify how safe commercial air travel is globally, but specifically in the United States, even with this fatal crash. The one prior to that was 16 years. Think of how many millions of flights a year and you went 16 years in America. That is incredible.
To be statistically at risk for dying in a plane crash, you would have to fly every single day for 103,000 years. Let that sink in. I got to interview Whoopi Goldberg in the book who had a crippling fear of flying. She witnessed a plane crash in the seventies. Funny enough, and many people with fear of flying, it comes and goes at random times. So she was fine flying and then she had a terrible dream and crippling, crippling fear of flying. She actually used to have a tour bus to take her New York to LA in three days, two drivers full-time back to back.
And it wasn’t until she had to do Sister Act in London, part of her contract was to go, and she had such a fear of flying she had to charter a private jet with an anesthesiologist. They put her down.
Tori Dunlap:
They knocked her out to go on the… Oh, wow.
Brian Kelly:
And then propped her back up to do that red carpet.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s they do with dogs on flights. Oh, my god.
Brian Kelly:
But fast-forward now, she now flies. She bought a home in Italy and she flies commercial.
Tori Dunlap:
Lovely.
Brian Kelly:
And it’s not perfect, but she’s dealt with it. So there’s a lot of different techniques. There’s even a service called Dial A Pilot. For those of you who like to speak to the pilot, you talk to a certified pilot for $65, which I’ve talked to people who say it’s great.
I interviewed Captain Sully in the book about the logistics. Turbulence, it seems so crazy and it seems so jarring, but it’s actually very normal.
Tori Dunlap:
Do you bring up the Jell-O example? Because that’s the one that’s helped me? Have you ever heard of the Jell-O example?
Brian Kelly:
Oh no, I don’t know that one.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, my gosh. This was again, thank you research paper. And by research paper, I mean TikTok. So it was going all around, especially in the pandemic, of anybody who’s afraid of flying. And what’s going on with turbulence is it’s just like your flight is suspended in Jell-O. So when you move the Jell-O cup around, it can feel jarring, but it’s not actually moving up and down. It’s not sinking and falling, because you’re suspended with pressure on either side.
So I mean, I didn’t have a fear flying, but I had really bad turbulence on a flight to Fiji. And it went on for 25, 30, 40 minutes. And it was up and down the kind of roller coaster.
Brian Kelly:
Jarring, yeah. Where people screaming?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. And I just looked at the flight attendants who, of course, were just sitting there like it was a Tuesday and were so calm. And I was like, okay, if you’re freaking out, then I’m freaking out. If you’re calm, I’m fine.
And I kept thinking about the Jell-O example of you’re moving up and down, but the pressure, you’re suspended. And you’re fine.
Brian Kelly:
Planes are stood to withstand way worse turbulence. Now, turbulence can be damaging. That’s why you really… I wear a seatbelt, even in first class.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Brian Kelly:
I make it as long as possible, but I’m still sleeping at night with the seatbelt. We’ve seen turbulence is getting worse, whether it’s climate change, certain routes, jet streams along the Northern Atlantic and flying over mountain ranges. There’s even a website called Turbli, T-U-R-B-L-I, which can give you peace of mind. It’ll give you a turbulence forecast for your flight.
But with fear of flying, it is an anxiety disorder. A lot of people have it and certainly the social media algorithms today, which prioritize outrage and craziness, we’re being fed an inordinate amount of negative stuff around travel. Even though commercial travel is so extraordinarily safe.
Tori Dunlap:
So safe.
Brian Kelly:
But there’s a lot of other techniques. Cognitive behavioral therapy. I actually interviewed my friend, Lays Laraya. She’s @freakwentflyer. She’s fascinating. She lives in Dubai. She survived a plane crash, but she always wanted to work in hospitality. And she lived in Brazil and Disney was her dream.
And she got her job at Disney in their corporate program and she like, “I’m not going to give up on my life.”
But she used to have to drug herself, not taking my rule, she used to have to be sleeping before takeoff because her flight that she was on-
Tori Dunlap:
She missed Madonna every time.
Brian Kelly:
… I know, right? But she now travels every single weekend almost from Dubai. She flies around the world. She’s one of the most frequent travelers I know. And for her it was identifying her triggers. Takeoff was a trigger. She keeps her mind busy.
And then truly, she started flying Emirates and it was such a positive experience. She had room on the plane. She felt comfortable. And that’s why I say, using your points and miles to get that extra legroom seat, to redeem for business class. A lot of people are claustrophobic and coach cabins are getting tighter.
So dare I say, frequent flyer miles and points can actually help reduce your fear of flying by giving you more space, more tranquility. But I will say if you’re ever going to do anti-anxiety meds or any meds, never try them for the first time on a plane.
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely not.
Brian Kelly:
And do not mix them with alcohol. All these situations-
Tori Dunlap:
We’ve seen Bridesmaids. We know how that goes down.
Brian Kelly:
… Yeah. These people who are peeing in the aisle on a plane, and it’s almost always because they’re mixing. And just be very careful with that.
Tori Dunlap:
Ready to party.
Brian Kelly:
The colonial woman on the wing.
Tori Dunlap:
Colonial woman on the wing of the plane. She’s churning butter. She’s churning butter. Something they’re not telling us. One of my favorite movies of all time. I will also say as someone who doesn’t have flight anxiety, but actually I do not like flying. I’ve done it so many times. I do it so often for work.
Brian Kelly:
I would teleport if I could.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, me too. I think for me I have chronic pain, and so if I’m just especially middle seat somebody… No offense, you would be my worst nightmare if you sat down next to me in coach.
Brian Kelly:
Of course, because I’m so broad.
Tori Dunlap:
And you’re tall and it’s so hard on my shoulders.
Brian Kelly:
I physically can’t fit in coach.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. So as I started traveling more and more frequently, it has just been nice, even if it’s just premium or making sure I have an aisle seat-
Brian Kelly:
Get an extra recline.
Tori Dunlap:
… so I can get up because I need to move a lot. And I also don’t sleep on planes. I cannot sleep on planes. And so that has made the whole experience not feel…
Brian Kelly:
Great.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. But I used to stress for days of like, okay, I have to get on a plane.
Brian Kelly:
But being able to at least have lie flat or have your own space, that makes all the difference.
Tori Dunlap:
And it’s not something I necessarily still look forward to. But I flew first coming here and it was actually the first time, you’re going to be proud of me, the first time I ever spent money on a first-class ticket. It was either like a branded paid for it or I did it through points. It was the first time I’d ever spent my own cash to upgrade my seat, but it was just like-
Brian Kelly:
It’s worth it.
Tori Dunlap:
… The flight flew by.
Brian Kelly:
Flew by. It’s good for your mental health. You’re so busy so having and just not dreading… I know on a trip, dreading the flight home. When you start using points and miles, and listen up people, the US airlines, Delta’s nice. Start flying the Middle Eastern carriers, Asian carriers. It’s exquisite.
Tori Dunlap:
The shower on the plane. Yeah, it’s insane.
Okay, jet lag. Help me out.
Brian Kelly:
Jet lag. You know Taylor Swift? Love her. It is not a choice, girlfriend. Jet lag. I actually learned a lot. I have a whole chapter on travel health, specifically jet lag.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s all about circadian rhythm, right?
Brian Kelly:
And light exposure. Light exposure is the number one thing. So jet lag, I used to always say, well, I’m going to take a sleeping pill on the plane. I’ll try to get enough. It’s sleep, sleep, sleep. I was just trying to get in. I’m a big guy so I really need seven to eight hours. So I was always trying to cobble together that.
But recently I went to Japan and as I’ve gotten older, jet lag really messes me up. I’m a dad now, so I can’t just… My son’s up. I need to be aware. So waking up at 2:30 in the morning, wide awake, and then having a horrific day really has become a problem and made me not want to travel as much.
But in short, your eyes have two functions. See and help you and regulate light that is your key message to your circadian rhythm.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Brian Kelly:
So when you get light, when you take a flight and then all of a sudden your body’s getting these signals, like what the heck? I keep getting light. That’s what really messes it up. And your circadian rhythm, I mean it’s not just your sleep. I mean your digestion, your overall health. Your circadian rhythm even tells your body when to absorb nutrients. There’s all sorts of-
Tori Dunlap:
When to go to the bathroom.
Brian Kelly:
… So when your circadian rhythm’s off, you can try doing coffee and stuff to grind through it, but it can be a challenge. And in general, it takes one day for every hour of change to adjust naturally. So when going to Tokyo for a week, and that’s a 12-hour difference, what do you do?
So long story short, there’s an app called Timeshifter, which makes-
Tori Dunlap:
I was just going to say. I swear by Timeshifter.
Brian Kelly:
… It’s the only real… Look. There’s so many Instagram ads of take this juice. It’s all BS because it’s all predicated and there’s no certain plane type that’s going to be better for jet lag. And Timeshifter will give you your recommendations on when to get natural light and when to not. And there are times on the plane where you should, even if you can’t sleep on a plane, you can still wear sunglasses on a plane that block light. You can still watch a movie. But not having the bright screen light in your eye can dramatically help your jet lag.
And also, prep a couple days before a flight. You start going to bed a little bit earlier to adjust to the time zone you’re going to. And one final tip on melatonin, which can be very helpful. Most of us are doing it wrong. The melatonin you want take is smaller dose and quick release. So many of us are taking gummies that take forever to get through your system.
Tori Dunlap:
So then you’re tired when you get off the plane.
Brian Kelly:
Exactly. So short release melatonin at the right times with the right sunlight exposure and using the Timeshifter. And you can wear it with your Apple Watch. It’ll tell you, okay, stop caffeine now. Try to sleep on the plane for these blocks or if you can’t sleep, it’s totally fine. Lay back, rest with sunglasses on. You may look like a diva, but who cares?
Tori Dunlap:
Who cares?
Brian Kelly:
And I really recommend to people instead of just trying to grind through it, don’t be a hero. And don’t drink on planes. That’s something that I can’t stress enough. Just food and drink on planes, even in the nicest first classes, is not that great. Eat healthy food, try not to drink too much because the meals you get on the ground when you’re alert and less groggy will be far more enjoyable than anything you’re going to get on a plane
Tori Dunlap:
And drink so much water.
Brian Kelly:
And not to scare you, but deep vein thrombosis, DVT, is a huge issue. Blood clots. Healthy young people.
Tori Dunlap:
All the time.
Brian Kelly:
So get up and walk throughout a flight, especially an economy. And if you ever are on a flight and you start having numbness in a leg or anything, do not underestimate it. Everyone, I talk about it in the book, deep vein thrombosis, because young people, it could kill you. It could create clots that-
Tori Dunlap:
We had a family friend that died from it.
Brian Kelly:
… get dislodged. So I think the more people know about it, compression socks are great. They’re cool, they’re comfy, and just moving your legs around, getting up and walking around the plane so your blood’s not pooling and sitting and putting you at risk for that clot.
Tori Dunlap:
You made my entire life because my partner makes fun of me every time I’m in Europe and I’m like, “Okay, we have to see sunlight right now.”
And he’s like, “Really? We’re doing this?”
And I was like, “Yes, a hundred percent.” And I use the same app.
Brian Kelly:
It works.
Tori Dunlap:
I will say, as someone-
Brian Kelly:
And sometimes the recommendations are tough, but you can adjust it.
Tori Dunlap:
… And you’re so tired and you’re like, “I just want to sleep.”
But if you can truly just sleep when you’re supposed to for that time. And yeah, I will say, I am so good at beating jet lag because I don’t sleep when I’m not supposed to, even if it’s in impossible. And I get light. And the one time that jet lag followed me for days was I went to Iceland where the sun wasn’t up until 10 AM. And the sun went down at four PM.
I was jet-lagged for days and days and days. Usually I can curb it in a day.
Brian Kelly:
What has been your best trip ever?
Tori Dunlap:
Best trip ever? So I go on Friend Moons with my friend Christine, and we do honeymoons as best friends.
Brian Kelly:
I’ve done that. I did that once in St. Regis with my friend, Kayla.
Tori Dunlap:
So we’ve done it almost every year. 2023, we went to Morocco. But Iceland.
Brian Kelly:
Oh, I haven’t been in a while.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, we did Iceland and then Morocco.
Brian Kelly:
Did you do a riad or one of the fancy hotels?
Tori Dunlap:
We did a riad by ourselves and that was lovely.
Brian Kelly:
What month did you go?
Tori Dunlap:
November.
Brian Kelly:
Morocco is good like the shoulder seasons. Right?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. And it was right after… I shouldn’t say right after. It was a couple months after the earthquake. And so we were going back and forth of should we go? And all the right reading we did was they really need tourism. So we were like, okay, great.
Brian Kelly:
Tourism can be an act of economic helping. Puerto Rico, after that Hurricane Maria, they needed tourism.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. We went to Australia and New Zealand together. My partner and I have done Europe twice. Been to Japan. I don’t know. I’ve been a lot of really cool places.
Brian Kelly:
To have successful friendships, I have a whole chapter in the book in the beginning about setting ground rules with friends because group trips can be amazing, but we’ve all had the blowout.
Tori Dunlap:
There are people that I love and I will not travel with them.
Brian Kelly:
And it’s okay to have those boundaries.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
How is it successful with you and your friend? Do you have a pre-meeting? Do you agree days that are low-key?
Tori Dunlap:
Very much so. Yeah.
Brian Kelly:
Do you have solo time on those trips?
Tori Dunlap:
A little bit typically, or we’re very clear about hey, I need some time. It’s not you, it’s me. I need time alone. Same thing with my partner is I think we both travel really, really well, but there’s times where I’m like-
Brian Kelly:
Will you share a room or are you [inaudible 01:02:22]?
Tori Dunlap:
… My partner and I share a room. Sometimes Christine and I will share a room, but we always have at least part of the trip where we have our own space. And that’s really nice.
Brian Kelly:
Yeah, I think that’s really important.
Tori Dunlap:
But we did two months in Europe together.
Brian Kelly:
Wow. No blowouts?
Tori Dunlap:
One blowout. Six weeks in, fight in the streets of Milan. Full drag out fight and it was not good.
Brian Kelly:
Was wine involved?
Tori Dunlap:
No. I don’t think we had alcohol. No. It was just like-
Brian Kelly:
Do you laugh about it to this day?
Tori Dunlap:
… Yeah, it was one of those where we were both yelling at each other in the street.
Brian Kelly:
I can’t imagine. I don’t want to get on your bad side.
Tori Dunlap:
And then we worked it out that night. We worked it out that night, but it was not good. And it’s hard. It’s hard.
Brian Kelly:
When you’re traveling, too. And yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re stressed. You’re in a new place. Yeah, your digestion. And it’s also, I don’t know if I had ever been with anybody for six weeks.
Brian Kelly:
That’s a long time.
Tori Dunlap:
And lived with them and traveled with them and yeah, it’s a lot. It’s a lot.
But no. One of my questions for you, and this is one of my final questions before we do some rapid fire. I mentioned this to you off mic. One of my goals this year is to do more solo travel because I’ve done… I don’t think I’ve been anywhere outside of the US by myself. And I think there’s this misconception, whether you are a woman, a person of color, a queer person, that I’m going to be targeted or I’m not going to be safe.
And it’s definitely true in some countries. So 95% of our listeners are women. I don’t ever want women to not be able to live their life and do incredible things just because they don’t have a partner or their partner can’t travel with them. So talk to me about solo travel, just how we do it.
Brian Kelly:
I love solo travel. Before I had my kids, even now I try to get away a little bit, but some of my biggest life moments, you have to take yourself out of your environment. When I was selling my business, when my business got sold and I had some really big, I’m looking at two paths here. And I need to think clearly.
I’m a scuba diver. I love being in water. So I’ve been to the Maldives. I was at a honeymoon resort by myself. I’ve done Bora Bora by myself. Swam with humpback whales. If you love whales in the island of Morea in Tahiti from July through October, the humpbacks are there with their calves. You can go whale watching and it’s the only place in the world where if you have the guts to do it, jump in the Pacific and you can snorkel with humpbacks below you, which is just like a life-changing… I’m a big wildlife guy.
Tori Dunlap:
Isn’t that the island that they base Moana on?
Brian Kelly:
Is Morea that? I don’t know, actually. I’ve never actually seen Moana.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, it’s lovely.
Brian Kelly:
Yeah. So Tahiti, most people go to Bora Bora, but then Morea is a smaller, really cool island. It’s kind of Hawaii-ish.
Tori Dunlap:
Humpback whales sound amazing.
Brian Kelly:
Humpback whales.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow. I read an article in Travel and Leisure about people who do these whale trips and it’s…
Brian Kelly:
It’s amazing. I find whales, my son loves them too now.
Tori Dunlap:
They’re just majestic. They’re just incredible.
Brian Kelly:
And the Azores, if you are a whale person, the Azores are in the middle of the Atlantic and it’s the pit stop for the whales that go between Antarctica and the North Pole. So it’s like an amazing mix. I saw blue whales, which are the largest animals.
Tori Dunlap:
Those are sperm whales, right? The same?
Brian Kelly:
Sperm whales are like Moby Dick, blue whales are like submarines that look blue in the water. They’re actually gray. They’re humongous.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Brian Kelly:
Back to your question of solo travel.
Tori Dunlap:
I was like, we can have a separate conversation about whales.
Brian Kelly:
Obviously as a six-foot seven male, I understand. So I interviewed Jessica Nabongo, who she is fabulous. She’s the first black woman to go to every country in the world. Fabulous traveler. I interviewed her in this book because I don’t have an authentic perspective as a female, and she gave great tips.
Her overall outlook is, you’d be shocked. She never once had any issues going to every country. Iraq, Afghanistan. She highly recommends in more offbeat places, get a local guide that you trust. That’s vetted. I always recommend signing up, the US State Department has the STEP program, and this is anytime you travel. Step well register your details. I was in Guatemala and I actually got an alert from the embassy saying there’s going to be political protests that shut down the airport on this day, and it was the day I was supposed to fly.
So getting that piece of information from signing up, I left the day before. I would’ve been stranded for a week in Guatemala. So sign up for the US Department of State STEP program. But a lot of times the US Department of State advisories are just negative across the board. Don’t go. If you looked at their website, you would think that nowhere was safe.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, my mom has called me multiple times and been like, “You’re going there?”
And I’m like, “Yeah, Italy is fine. We’re going to be okay.”
Brian Kelly:
Jessica said to me, she’s like, look. Stay in hotels when in doubt. If you don’t really know a destination or if you have questions about whether it’s safe, stay in a hotel. Safety-wise, a hotel also will have local ideas where to go, what not to do.
And really, hiring local guides can be really inexpensive and they know where to go, can take you safely.
Tori Dunlap:
Did that in Morocco, because I was a little intimidated. I had never been to…
Brian Kelly:
My first trip to Marrakesh pre-Points Guy, but I had never been to a Muslim country. So it’s really cool. The call to prayer and stuff, it’s so different. But then it started getting dark in the Medina. We got lost.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Brian Kelly:
These kids were messing with us, telling us to go the wrong way.
Tori Dunlap:
Same. Yep.
Brian Kelly:
My blood pressure starts going up. And it was fine in the end. But also don’t think you’re a superhero and because you’re American and that everyone’s just going to…
Tori Dunlap:
No, you’re a target sometimes.
Brian Kelly:
Target. And also the US government’s not going to bail you out of jail. I talk about several cases of US tourists who do dumb things, get arrested. There’s this notion that our greatest country is going to come in and bail you out. They won’t. They’ll maybe give you a number of a lawyer.
But yeah, so solo travel. I mean there’s so many great female solo travelers out there on the internet. I love Jessica Nabongo. She has a book as well about her travels to every country. But research local guides, staying at hotels, and then really listening to other women who have been there. That’s the best source. The government websites are not going to give you the real scoop on the ground.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. And for queer folks, is that good research to figure out what countries can I hold hands in without getting targeted?
Brian Kelly:
I go to the Maldives a lot. It’s a Muslim country. On the surface, it’s very anti-gay, whatever. The reality is in the Maldives, when you’re staying at a resort, you’re in resort-ville. That’s like your own little country. They have alcohol, they love gay people. I proposed to my ex-fiance in the Maldives and the Waldorf Astoria couldn’t have been more accommodating because it’s really like your own. I wouldn’t have done that on the main island of Malay, right?
For my LGBTQ friends, I know a lot of people, there’s countries with laws on the books. If you don’t feel comfortable going, you do have to change your… If you don’t want to change and not hold hands and have issues, then I don’t recommend going to places. I believe it’s our responsibility as travelers not to impart our beliefs on a culture. I’m respectful. I personally have been the most amazing countries in the world throughout Africa that have a lot to offer. And the people are not hateful. The laws might be hateful.
But I will say I do a lot of work with Rainbow Railroad and in Jamaica it’s one of the worst countries in the world, for especially trans people. It’s a dire situation. So many gay people will say, I’m going to boycott Jamaica. How dare they do this to my people?
And I don’t blame that mentality. Everyone has the right, power of your pocket. But when I went to Jamaica and I was in the gullies, like living where a lot of people live under bridges, the LGBTQ community there said, “Brian, please,” because I brought it up, I’m conflicted. They said, “Do not boycott Jamaica.”
Because a lot of the issues are related to poverty and just education systems. So by-
Tori Dunlap:
And probably exposure, too.
Brian Kelly:
… Exposure. And a lot of the LGBTQ people on that island work at the hotels. So they’re like, by boycotting, you actually hurt the people you’re trying to help. So I respect people’s right to not go to countries where you don’t feel safe. There are certain Muslim countries with really terrible rules that I would never… My thing for me is I’m not going anywhere where I’m going to get put in jail for being who I am. I’m not going to go on Grindr in countries where I know countries monitor it.
And you need to be smart. There are a lot of people, even in Morocco, there was a British guy recently who got mugged, killed. You have to be careful. So I think Morocco is an incredible country with so much to offer.
Tori Dunlap:
Kind people.
Brian Kelly:
But if you’re going to hook up, that’s not the place people, right? So if you don’t want to do that, I firmly, and I talk about this in the book, don’t go.
But I think by only going to countries with pro-gay laws, you’re missing a lot of the people. And everyday people are not hateful. And I do think throughout time when you meet gay people, that’s when people fear them less. So I’m not a big believer in the boycott, but I support everyone’s decision to.
But I also just urge people do some research, too. I fly Emirates. The Dubai, I have tons of gay friends who live in Dubai. Dubai, in general, as long as you’re respectful, technically there are some laws on the books, but there are out gays vibrantly living in Dubai. Every time I fly Emirates, I’ll have someone say, “Oh, they’re executing gays there.”
And I’m like, that’s just not the case. The laws might not be what I would do, but you can be… Two men can share a hotel room in Dubai. And then I also recommend stay at Western properties. But it is your responsibility though to understand the laws of where you’re going.
And I will say this, too, even with medications. If you’re on Adderall, a lot of popular medications in the US, Xanax, you got to be careful where you go. Japan is a country that you could get put in jail. Dubai especially.
Tori Dunlap:
Even if you have a prescription?
Brian Kelly:
Even if you have a prescription.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Brian Kelly:
Usually if you have a small amount with the prescription, you’re probably going to be fine. And most of the time they’re not going through your stuff. But do your research, especially if you have controlled substances that are prescribed to you. Every country’s different.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and to do a quick reframe before rapid fire, we were talking about this off mic. I think it’s very easy when you live in a country like the United States or Canada, if anybody’s listening, it’s very easy to just go, okay, well my version, this is what we know. So this feels like normal. We’re having an all out war against trans people in the United States.
Brian Kelly:
Totally.
Tori Dunlap:
I was mentioning to you a woman I met in New Zealand who was around my same age, who had no interest in coming to the United States because of gun violence. And so I think it’s very easy to make other countries feel ‘other’ of like, I’m not going to be safe there or something’s going to happen.
There are constant, unfortunately in the United States, not only constant gun violence, but constant violence against women, trans people, queer people. So we’re not any better, everybody.
Brian Kelly:
Yeah, the holier than now attitude, I think we all need to check a little bit. And that America’s the best or our ideals…
Tori Dunlap:
Or it’s just very easy to like this is my lived experience. I don’t know somebody else’s experience. They’re targeting gay people. I’m like half of America right now is targeting gay people.
Brian Kelly:
And trans people. Yeah, so I just encourage people not to miss the bigger picture. Governments are one thing, people are another. You will meet incredible people in places that can change their lives. Imagine people saying, “Oh, Americans are all Trumpers, therefore I can’t go because they hate me.”
And they wouldn’t meet someone like you. And wouldn’t you just say don’t judge me by that. So why would we do the same for other countries?
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Brian Kelly:
It’s the people that will change your life.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep.
Brian Kelly:
You get to meet.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay, Brian. We ready?
Brian Kelly:
Let’s do it.
Tori Dunlap:
Pre-check or clear?
Brian Kelly:
Pre-check.
Tori Dunlap:
Why?. It’s supposed to be rapid-fire. Now I’m going to ask why.
Brian Kelly:
Yeah. Well pre-check allows you to take your shoes off and go through quicker. Clear, on its own without pre-check, you still have to take your shoes off.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m a double-dipper. I’ll take a pre-check and a clear any day.
Brian Kelly:
If that was the option, but I’m not getting greedy. But actually the real answer is global entry.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Brian Kelly:
Global entry. I could not live without because it also gets you pre-checked. And now for families, global entry, your kids are free.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow, cool.
Underrated travel destination. Best one.
Brian Kelly:
I love Guatemala. It’s Mayan culture. The food’s incredible. Beautiful Lake Atitlán, Antigua. Culture. I mean it’s just beautiful.
Tori Dunlap:
Is there a direct flight from New York?
Brian Kelly:
Yeah. There are, actually. From New York and Houston.
Tori Dunlap:
West coast? Do you know? Maybe LA?
Brian Kelly:
I think LA might have one to Guatemala. Yeah. Really beautiful. There are some safety areas in Guatemala you wouldn’t want to go to, but the town of Antigua is this gorgeous town, 45 minutes from the airport. And it’s like a spiritual place. People are incredible, food’s incredible.
Tori Dunlap:
Let me put it on my list. I love it. Best place to travel with a family?
Brian Kelly:
I’m going to say Europe. Portugal, Italy. I was in Ibiza last summer at the hottest restaurant.
Tori Dunlap:
You went to Ibiza with Dean?
Brian Kelly:
With my son, yeah. And we were at the coolest restaurant at 10 PM and a woman was nursing her newborn and no one’s batting an eye.
Tori Dunlap:
Love it. Best place to travel solo?
Brian Kelly:
I think Southeast Asia, Thailand. I think Thailand’s maybe affordable. Cool. Lots of people backpacking and stuff there.
Tori Dunlap:
We just talked about compression socks. But definitely.
Brian Kelly:
Definitely.
Tori Dunlap:
Can I take my shoes off on a plane if I have my socks on?
Brian Kelly:
Yes. Yeah, make yourself comfortable. But if they stink, just be mindful. Try not to put them on the seat, in between the seat, touching your neighbor. But especially in business class, I always take my shoes off.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I said this at your party last night. I’m going to stare right down the barrel. If you are taking your shoes off and you don’t have socks on?
Brian Kelly:
Yeah, a lot of people have a feet thing.
Tori Dunlap:
Your toes are out on plane?
Brian Kelly:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
So gross.
Brian Kelly:
And also just the flip-flops and shorts. I see it all the time. Planes are cold people. You’re going to be freezing.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re going to freezing.
Brian Kelly:
Wear socks.
Tori Dunlap:
Neck pillows, yay or nay?
Brian Kelly:
Yeah, of course. I actually will bring neck pillows. So a lot of times when you fly first class, they don’t even give you pillows anymore. So if I need to sleep on a flight, I’m not banking on the airline. I’m a big pillow guy.
So neck pillows everywhere, even in first class.
Tori Dunlap:
Other than medication, best hack for sleeping on a plane? And I’m asking for a friend, and the friend is me.
Brian Kelly:
I work out. I do a great workout the day of the flight when possible just to get my circulation going. And wake up early, exhaust myself so that when I’m on that plane, I’m already tired.
Because I’m like you. Left to my own devices-
Tori Dunlap:
It’s bad.
Brian Kelly:
… It’s tough. But the fast acting melatonin, too. Low dose, fast acting melatonin.
Tori Dunlap:
I’ll have to check it out because yeah, I’ve been doing the melatonin random off Amazon and I think it kicks in four hours late.
Brian Kelly:
The key is fast acting.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Trip you’re looking forward to?
Brian Kelly:
Antarctica. I actually was just invited.
Tori Dunlap:
My dad has been not able… He’s so excited.
Brian Kelly:
I didn’t think I’d be able to do Antarctica for years because I want to bring my sons. It’s really hard for me to travel without my kids. And now on National Geographic Lindblad, they have a journey where you can fly from Chile to Antarctica, so you avoid the Drake, which is the crazy passage, which can be topsy-turvy. I’m not bringing kids on that.
So now you can fly to Antarctica on a military plane, get off, and then just cruise on the ship around the inlets. And they allow, certain cruises, kids as young as one. So I think this fall I’m going to take my parents, my two boys to Antarctica to play with some penguins.
Tori Dunlap:
I love it. Worst flight experience or worst person you’ve encountered on a flight? Give me the tea.
Brian Kelly:
Well, my worst flight, one of the few times in my life I’ve actually felt like I was going to die. I was on a regional jet flight from Toronto during a snowstorm landing at LaGuardia. And it was bouncing up and down, two aborted landings. And I’m sweating. And then I was sitting next to an off-duty pilot who goes, “Yeah, this pilot doesn’t know what he’s doing.”
Tori Dunlap:
Don’t say that to me on the flight.
Brian Kelly:
And you can’t even see the ground. So we’re about to land and it’s raining on January. It was the first time I was like, I think I’m going to die.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, you’re like, it’s over.
Brian Kelly:
And that was in 2008. So having a really bad experience, I can tell people is it puts everything else in perspective.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally. Nothing feels that bad again.
Brian Kelly:
It’s hard to really get me going on a flight. On planes, I’ve seen some crazy things. I’ve also had a lot of really fun. I flew once next to Danny DeVito on a flight and he was so fun.
We were taking off and he needed something from the overhead and he actually stood up on his seat and was hanging from the overhead and we’re taking off. And the flight attendants are so starstruck. I mean it’s Danny DeVito.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s short and tall right next to each other.
Brian Kelly:
Literally. And I saw him years later and I had my dog with me at the time and he remembered our flight. He was really cool.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s so funny. Best meal you’ve ever had and as much detail as possible would be lovely.
Brian Kelly:
The best meal on a plane?
Tori Dunlap:
On a flight.
Brian Kelly:
The Japanese airlines really know how to do it. They have multi-course. It would definitely be an Asian carrier. Singapore Airlines has Lobster Thermidor, which is a classic. Amazing.
But JetBlue Mint, domestically, consistently have really delicious… There’s five menu items. You get to choose three of them.
Tori Dunlap:
Cool.
Brian Kelly:
And in general, JetBlue Mint, by far, is the best food in the US.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. My last question for you. Best experience in terms… I am thinking the showers. What is something that you go into first class that none of us has experienced and you’re like, oh my God.
Brian Kelly:
Emirates first class is nice, but frankly it’s a little dated now. The Etihad Residence. So Etihad is A380s where you can book… You get a first class suite, but you also get a double bed in your own bedroom and your own shower.
And this is actually what I’m taking the kids on. I’m taking my delayed paternity after this book launch.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m sorry. I just want you to, one more time. You have your own suite, so that means you walk in, right? And it’s like basically a full-sized bed.
Brian Kelly:
You have a sofa and a closing door and a huge TV and then there’s a door into a room with a double bed with frette linens in your own shower. And two people can fit in it. So I travel with my two-year-old, and two year olds in planes want to play. And it’s amazing. We were in bed playing with toys.
Tori Dunlap:
Did you fly this recently?
Brian Kelly:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. I saw this flight.
Brian Kelly:
It has eight million views on my Instagram. So anyone listening, @briankelly, and I have it pinned and you can see this incredible. And you can actually redeem it’s 200,000 points to get the first class seat and then it’s about 500,000 point upgrade to get your own bedroom.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Brian Kelly:
And what I love most, you can control the temperature. Because I’m a 67 degree sleeper under the sheets and it is just so nice. And plus having your own bathroom on a plane that not one other person will use.
That is the pinnacle. There’s nothing better than the Etihad Residence.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. Well I have a new dream goal now.
Brian Kelly:
And it’s easy to do. I’ll help you actually book it.
Tori Dunlap:
I would love that because I have a million Chase points burning a hole in my pocket.
Brian Kelly:
You have Chase points, yeah. Chase doesn’t transfer. Amex and Capital One transfer to Etihad, but we’ll figure it out.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. That’s amazing.
Brian Kelly:
We’re going to get you hooked up.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh my gosh, Brian. Thank you. I have been following you for so long and I was saying this at your event last night, but you are such a champion for everybody in this industry. And I think technically we’re all a little bit of competition with each other, but it’s so incredible when all of us support each other and champion each other and introduce people. And it’s just so great.
And everybody should buy your book. Everybody should follow you. And plug away, my friend.
Brian Kelly:
No, I want to plug you-
Tori Dunlap:
No, no, no, no, no.
Brian Kelly:
… because I am inspired by you. I want you to know that. No, I love your authenticity. Sitting behind the wheel, telling it how it is. I think a lot of influencers try to overproduce and you give us your authentic self and it’s inspiring to me.
Tori Dunlap:
I appreciate it. I can’t try all the time, Brian. It’s too exhausting. I can’t do it.
Brian Kelly:
Yeah, but you do it well. And I know you’re helping. I think we have similar goals. We see how people are making mistakes and we just want to help people make these small tweaks that will let you live a better life.
Tori Dunlap:
And I want them to know, too, that again, it’s not… You and I, I think, have a different life than most people. We own a business. We get to use some of those points. We get to travel a lot. Everyday, average people can do this.
Brian Kelly:
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap:
Now maybe you’re not flying the first class every other week, but you’re just flying economy to get home for Christmas. You’re able to stay at the Hampton Inn & Suites on your road trip. So there’s so much accessibility in a way that I think it’s very easy to just, like investing or anything else personal finance, write it off as oh, just the experts know how to do this. You can do this, too.
Brian Kelly:
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap:
Plug away, please.
Brian Kelly:
Well, I’m very proud of my first ever book, How to Win at Travel. It’s 15 chapters. I’m going to teach you everything from budgeting. How much of your disposable income should you be spending on travel? Everything. Jet lag, travel safety, I have a whole chapter on etiquette.
And then I end on the future of travel. There’s a lot of exciting things happening in sustainable aviation fuel. My dear friend, Corey Lee, who travels the world in a wheelchair, shares his incredible insights on how we can all be better.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that.
Brian Kelly:
And some really exciting developments on that front. Supersonic travel could potentially be around. They just had the test flight this week.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Brian Kelly:
Supersonic. When will we be in taxis that are unmanned? Electric? So there’s a lot of exciting things happening. I want people to be excited about travel.
And if there’s one thing I think everyone should know, it’s that winning at travel and winning at this points game is winning at life, because it teaches you how to get your fair share. And I do firmly believe the more people that get involved in this ecosystem will live better lives.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. And we have a lot of authors on the show. I’m not just saying this. It’s an fantastic book. Everybody should go read it. Thank you. Thanks for being here.
Brian Kelly:
Thanks for having me. Safe travels.
Tori Dunlap:
A special thanks to Spotify for letting us film at their New York studios. It is a beautiful space and I love being able to film in studio and we appreciate Spotify for letting us use their space. You can get his book, How to Win at Travel, right now wherever books are sold. And for the credit cards that we recommend, we actually partner with The Points Guy to be able to deliver you credit card recommendations. So you can go to the link down below for the credit cards that I use and recommend to get free travel.
You can go to https://herfirst100k.com/tools if you’re not seeing that link down below. Thank you as always, Financial Feminists. If you appreciated this episode, we’d love that you share it. And cheers to traveling More in 2025. Have a great day.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Researched by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video Engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Kurronen, Daryl Ann Ingram and Meghan Walker. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton. Photography by Sarah Wolfe. And theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound.
A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirsthundredk.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
