The old job-hunting rules don’t work anymore. It’s time to play smarter, not harder.
If you’re job hunting in 2025, this is the only episode you need. Seriously. The job hunt in 2025 looks nothing like it did even a year ago. If you’ve been sending out applications like it’s your full-time job and still hearing crickets, you’re not alone. But don’t worry—we’ve got you covered.
I’m sitting down with Erin McGoff, award-winning career educator, content creator, and the founder of AdviceWithErin, to break down exactly how to stand out and land the job of your dreams in this wild hiring landscape. We’re talking about the biggest job market trends, the right (and wrong) ways to apply, why networking is more crucial than ever, and how to figure out what kind of career actually fits your life. Whether you’re currently job hunting, thinking about a career pivot, or just want to be prepared for the next step in your professional journey, this episode is packed with the advice you wish you’d heard sooner. Let’s get into it.
Key takeaways
Follow Your Talents, Not Just Your Passion
Erin challenges the “follow your passion” advice, explaining that most people are better off following their talents and aligning their careers with their ideal lifestyle rather than forcing a passion to become a paycheck. The key to long-term job satisfaction? Finding work that leverages what you’re naturally good at while leaving room for the life you actually want.
The Hidden Job Market is Real—And You Need to Tap Into It
Many of the best jobs are never even posted online. Instead, companies fill roles through networking, word-of-mouth, and internal referrals. Instead of “blitz applying” to hundreds of jobs, Erin recommends a company-first approach—identifying 10-20 companies you’d love to work for, connecting with people there, and building relationships before roles even open up.
Ghost Jobs & AI Filters Are Making Traditional Job Applications Harder
One of the biggest frustrations job seekers face? Ghost jobs—listings that either don’t exist, are already filled, or are just there for optics. On top of that, AI is filtering resumes before a human ever sees them, making it critical to use the right keywords and tailor applications strategically to beat the algorithm.
Networking > Applying Blindly
Erin is brutally honest: If you’re only applying to jobs online and not networking, you’re making the job hunt 10 times harder. The fastest way to land a role is through connections, referrals, and directly reaching out to people—even if it feels awkward at first.
How to Actually Get Noticed (and Hired)
If you want to stand out, tailor your resume to every single job, follow up with a personal message, and show that you actually understand the company’s mission. Typos, vague applications, and generic “quick applies” will get you tossed out immediately. Pro tip from Tori: “Hiring managers (like me) are looking for reasons to put you in the ‘no’ pile because we get hundreds of resumes. Don’t make it easy for them to say no!”
There’s No Such Thing as a “Dream Job”
Erin and I both believed our “dream jobs” were in film and acting. Spoiler: They weren’t. Your “dream job” should be a job that supports your dream life—one that gives you the freedom, security, and balance you want.
Notable quotes
“Job boards are broken right now. The best jobs are filled before they even hit LinkedIn or Indeed. You have to be networking.”
“The thing that you really love shouldn’t necessarily be your career—unless you’re extraordinarily talented at it. People should follow their talents, not just their passions.”
“Quick apply and easy apply have ruined the job market. If you’re using those, you’re just blending in with thousands of other applicants.”
Episode-at-a-glance
≫ 02:39 Erin’s Journey: From Film Industry to Career Advice
≫ 13:27 Navigating the Job Market: Trends and Tips
≫ 22:26 Effective Job Applications and Interviews
≫ 31:28 Balancing Passion and Career: Finding Your Dream Job
≫ 36:25 Dealing with Rejection and Maintaining Confidence
≫ 41:24 Understanding Hiring Mistakes and Rejection
≫ 43:11 Etiquette and Self-Awareness in Interviews
≫ 48:58 Networking Tips for Introverts and Extroverts
≫ 52:04 Effective Cold Outreach Strategies
≫ 58:42 The Value of Side Hustles and the Gig Economy
≫ 01:02:57 Navigating Job Interviews and Common Questions
Erin’s Links:
Website: https://www.erinmcgoff.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/advicewitherin/
Erin’s Newsletter: https://www.hyperhelpful.com/
Career Advice Quiz: https://advicewitherin.com/quiz
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Meet Erin
Erin McGoff is an award-winning career educator, content creator, and the founder of Advice With Erin, the most-followed career advice content creator, with over 6 million followers across social media platforms. Known for her relatable and effective approach to career, finance, and life advice, Erin is reshaping how Gen Z and Millennials approach professional growth, helping them build confidence, secure dream roles, and navigate the complexities of the modern workplace.
Erin launched Advice With Erin in 2020, inspired by her experience navigating her dream job in the film industry and her determination to help others find their dream jobs. Originally sharing insights about breaking into filmmaking, her content quickly expanded to address broader life skills often overlooked in traditional education—such as crafting resumes, mastering interviews, and personal finance. In 2022, Erin left her position at National Geographic to pursue the platform full-time, motivated by the life-changing impact her guidance had on her audience. Featured by The New York Times, CNBC, and Fortune, Advice With Erin has grown into a trusted resource for professional development and personal empowerment, equipping people to get excited and take ownership of their future.
Through creative series like Job Interview Q&As, Resume Rewrites, and How To…, Erin distills complex topics into clear, actionable advice. Her signature lines like “You got this!” and “It’s not personal, just professional” resonate deeply with followers seeking tangible solutions to everyday challenges, from negotiating salaries to improving workplace communication.
As a creator and/or director, Erin has collaborated with top companies including Google, Meta, National Geographic, LinkedIn, Coursera, Subaru, IBM, Walmart, HP, Dell, VAIO, Logitech, Indeed, Capital One, and other Fortune 500 brands, further expanding the reach of her mission.
Raised right outside Washington, D.C. in Maryland, Erin developed an early passion for visual storytelling at a young age. Teaching herself filmmaking through YouTube tutorials throughout grade school, she honed her craft, directing short films, going to film school, and eventually directing This Little Land of Mines. The documentary, which explores the lasting impact of 80 million unexploded American bombs in Laos, earned her critical acclaim and numerous accolades, including the prestigious Pulitzer Center fellowship. In 2023, McGoff founded her own production company, Grey Films.
In 2024, Erin launched No One Knows What They’re Doing, a YouTube show/podcast designed to help people feel more confident and offer advice from experts. Erin also recently launched her wildly successful newsletter, Hyper Helpful, and penned a book deal with Penguin Random House. Erin’s book, The Secret Language of Work, will be in stores in late 2025/early 2026. Today, Erin continues to grow Advice With Erin by creating new content, hosting in-person networking events, and developing new products, like her free Career Aptitude Quiz, to help people thrive. She is dedicated to helping her audience feel confident, prepared, and equipped to thrive— whether through career education, impactful collaborations, or innovative storytelling.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
Financial Feminist, this is the only episode of any podcast you’ll ever need to listen to about job interviews. It is jam-packed with information about how to stand out and land the job of your dreams, whether you’re looking for a new job or not. Let’s get into it. Hi, Financial Feminists, welcome back to the show. I’m thrilled to see you. As always, if you’re an oldie but a goodie, welcome back. If you are new, hi, my name is Tori. I’m a multimillionaire. I’m a money expert. I’ve helped over 5 million women save money, pay off debt, start investing, start businesses, and feel financially confident. If you are wondering where to get started in your financial journey and you’re feeling overwhelmed, we have a free personalized money plan for you at herfirst100k.com/quiz, you’re going to answer a couple of questions for us to be able to give you information that’s relevant to you, and then you’re going to get your plan sent straight to your email. Herfirst100k.com/quiz is the best place to get started.
Today’s guest is a fun one because she and I have been following each other and rose up to internet fame at the same time. She is so much good information. This is one of those episodes you’re going to listen to and you’re going to immediately send to a friend, and then you’re going to listen again in about a month because it’s jam-packed value, value-packed. Erin McGoff is an award-winning career educator, content creator, and the founder of AdviceWithErin, the most followed career advice content creator with over 6 million followers across social media platforms. Known for her relatable and effective approach to career finance and life advice, Erin is reshaping how Gen Z and millennials approach professional growth, help them build confidence, secure dream roles, and navigate the complexities of the modern workplace.
Today we’re covering whether you should follow your passion or your talents, and how to determine what those are, the current trends we’re seeing in the job market, including the most common red flags in job listings, how to get more focused when applying for jobs and how to put together better applications. We also talk about side hustles, networking, and I even go into what I take into consideration when I’m hiring at Her First $100K. If you’ve ever wanted to work at our company, this might be a good place to start. Thank you again to Spotify for letting us film in they’re beautiful, incredible studios in New York City. Thank you for supporting our show. Without further ado, let’s get into it. But first a word from our sponsors. We’re going to dive right in. You ready? I would love for you to tell me what you do and why it’s so important?
Erin McGoff:
All right. My name is Erin McGoff. I give career advice on the internet. I have around 6 million followers total as of now. Let’s see if the TikTok ban hurts that. Yeah. I’m really passionate about giving career advice and just helping people feel more confident in general in their careers and finding a career that really fits them and makes them really happy because we spend most of our waking hours working, so you definitely want to make sure that we have a job that we like.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. What for you prompted the need for that?
Erin McGoff:
Gosh. Well, let’s go back. I’d have to go back a bit. I always wanted to work in the film industry. I went to film school, worked in the film industry, and it’s a rough industry. I didn’t have any type of connections going into it. I had to be extremely scrappy and figure out how to be a sponge and worked on all these different sets, and it’s rough. You get yelled at. You get rejected. You have to grow some thick skin. But I did it, and I would say I was successful. I premiered my feature documentary at 23. I got a Pulitzer Fellowship. I moved to New York City off the heels of it. I had meetings at production companies.
Everything was going great, and then the pandemic happened, and that’s when I started creating content. Anyway, I’m really passionate about it because there’s different layers to it. The deepest is what really bothers me is that there’s an unequal distribution of career advice in the world. When I was growing up outside the DC area, I had friends who were pretty well-off and then friends who weren’t as advantaged. Just seeing equally motivated people have such an unequal access to opportunity really bothered me. When I saw TikTok, just like you, I was like, “This is a great place to spread some information,” and so I started doing it with just the film industry, just trying to-
Tori Dunlap:
I remember the early days, it was more niche than I think or a different each than it is now for you.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was more giving advice specific to the film industry, and I did it at first because I was really annoyed. In 2020, the film industry was all about equality and women filmmakers. Then I’d go into these meetings and people would be telling me that I’m too green, I’m too young, I sound like a sorority president. I’m like, “This is so performative.”
Tori Dunlap:
What a gendered remark too. Jesus Christ.
Erin McGoff:
It was just so performative. I was just like, “You know what? I’m going to go on TikTok, and I’m going to spread information about how to get on set and how to make a budget, how to pitch a project, and hope that it gets to the right people.” Then over time, my content became more and more generalized and… Yeah. Yeah. I can go on forever about it.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and it sounds like it was a personal experience mixed with also seeing the systemic issues of… Yeah. It’s not democratized in the way that it should be, the advice, and that’s how I view personal finance as well.
Erin McGoff:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
It’s the exact same motivations that you have. Yeah. That’s the deepest layer of it is just trying to level the playing field a bit, but also it’s just fun. I like taking really dry subjects, like the ones we talk about, and making them fun.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Erin McGoff:
It’s just enjoyable for me.
Tori Dunlap:
You originally resisted being an influencer, but then your following just kept growing. What made you say, “No, we’re going all in. We’re doing this”?
Erin McGoff:
Gosh. Yeah. I started creating content. I was a freelance video editor, and I started creating content during 2020 when the film industry halted. My content blew up, and I was like, “This is freaky.” I deleted the app. I got really paranoid. I was like, “People are going to find out where I live and murder me.” I just didn’t like-
Tori Dunlap:
The internet’s a scary place. I don’t blame you.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. I just didn’t… I got really overwhelmed, and I just didn’t really want that. I wanted to have more a private life. I also didn’t want my income to rely on what people thought of me. I wanted to be able to express my opinions without people canceling me. The internet is like… People are really dumb on the internet. They do not… No offense. I’m on the internet. I’m dumb on the internet, but-
Tori Dunlap:
They jumped to conclusions really quickly.
Erin McGoff:
… I just didn’t want my finances to be reliant on people’s opinion of me. That freaked me out. Also, I was a film industry professional as a documentary filmmaker, I had a legitimate career
Tori Dunlap:
Right. TikTok felt illegitimate?
Erin McGoff:
Well, I felt as a journalist, and we can get more into this, that if I was on TikTok making goofy videos, I would be taken less seriously. At the time I think that was true. I think now it’s less true.
Tori Dunlap:
It still continues to be true [inaudible 00:06:48]-
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. There are some great journalists on social media now. I’m actually… I’m working with an organization helping to get more journalists on social media. But yeah, so I got a job at National Geographic. It was actually a full-time contract job. It was a permalancing job. It was awesome. I loved it. I was working at National Geographic. It was sweet, and I was making TikToks during my lunch break. It just got to a point where I was getting so many messages from people who were like, “Your advice changed my life.”
I was like, “I need to reassess here because when I started my career, I wanted to make a difference in the world, a positive impact.” My dad would always tell me, like, “You’ve been given such a good life. You’re so lucky. Go dent the universe. Go make a difference.” I always thought the way that I was going to do that was documentary. However, I did it. I made a documentary. Documentary is going to be seen by 3 million people max. My TikToks were getting viewed by 20 million people, and so I was like, “What am I actually doing here? Am I doing this for the impact or am I doing this because the film industry is a glamorous and fun place to work?” Maybe giving career advice is my actual calling and it’s where I’m making a greater impact, and I don’t have to pitch my ideas to-
Tori Dunlap:
You get to create whatever the hell you want.
Erin McGoff:
There’s no gate. I was like, “I’m just going to take this.” Disney did this huge round of layoffs at Nat Geo, and I actually wasn’t affected. That actually pissed me off. The people that they got rid of, it made me really sad. I was like, “You know what? Screw this.” I quit and I went off. I went all in on AdviceWithErin. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Is that something that… Clearly you and I are sitting here, it probably worked out, but is that… My background as an actor, I mourn that life very much. I have not done it since college, traditional theater. Now, you could argue this is theater in a way, but I miss that very deeply. Do I feel fulfilled in what I do now? 100%, but I also miss it. I imagine the experience is the same for you.
Erin McGoff:
Hit the nail on the head there, Tori.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah? Okay. Great.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Me and… Connor is my friend who’s sitting here with us. We were just talking about Sundance before we got on here. We’re not Sundance right now, and I really wish I was at Sundance. I do. I miss it. The film industry is an extremely fun place to work if you have thick skin, and it’s lonely running your own business. Yeah. I absolutely do miss it, and I’m sad that I’m not going to win an Oscar one day. Maybe I will.
Tori Dunlap:
Maybe you will.
Erin McGoff:
Never say never. I do miss it and I’m-
Tori Dunlap:
I miss it a lot.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
It just feels… Everybody asks like, “You should audition for something.” I’m like, “When? When, guys? Legitimately, when would you like me to do that?”
Erin McGoff:
My end all be all goal is to get really rich and then to fund projects that I want to make. I want to be in the seat, but the person who’s in the seat and who decides what gets made in the movies, they have money. Anyway-
Tori Dunlap:
No. That’s perfect.
Erin McGoff:
… I’m going to Reese Witherspoon it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. For me, okay, I have a theater degree. If you’re looking at… Your background is a filmmaker. Okay. In theory, we should either be making a shit ton of money because you’re Steven Spielberg and I’m pick whatever actor, but most people don’t. But how do we find careers that get us to a place where, okay, we’re still scratching that itch, it still feels authentic, it’s still passion for us, but we’re not constantly financially struggling?
Erin McGoff:
Great question. I like to categorize it in two different ways. There’s two types of ways you can approach your career. The first one is lifestyle focused, which these are the people who want to live a certain life. Most people it’s I want to own a home and I want to have a family and I want to have kids and I want to have my weekends free and I want to go on vacation and I want to feel financially comfortable. That’s most people. Then there’s another category of people who are career focused. These are people who have a career, and they formulate their life around that career. Military, surgeons, Broadway actors.
These are people who are like, “I’m going to be this career, and everything about my life is going to need to make room for that.” I think most people are lifestyle focused. 95% of folks are lifestyle focused, but they try to live a career-focused life. What you really need to do is figure out what’s going to be your career, what’s going to be the foundation, what’s going to be something that’s okay, it’s sustainable, you make enough money, it’s good, it’s secure. That might be something you love. It’s probably not. The thing that you really love shouldn’t really be your direct career unless you’re extraordinarily talented at it, because I think people should follow their talents, not follow their passion.
I’d say if you’re creative, like we are, yes, find a creative-adjacent career. If you’re okay with being career focused, maybe not having the most money or the most flexibility or being able to go on vacation whenever you want and you want to be that Broadway star, go for it, but know that you’re career focused and not lifestyle focused. I highly recommend… I always recommend that people do what they love on the side. Make it your hobby. I grew up playing music seriously. My family owned a recording studio. I played classical piano for 10 years.
Tori Dunlap:
I did too.
Erin McGoff:
Really?
Tori Dunlap:
Mm-hmm.
Erin McGoff:
We are so similar.
Tori Dunlap:
We are.
Erin McGoff:
I would never make that my career because I’m very average at it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. That’s literally me. I’m pretty good, but I remember solo and ensemble and just getting… All the prodigies were there and I was like, “Okay. Well, this is fun.”
Erin McGoff:
I’m peacing out.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
I have a piano in my apartment, and I play it for fun. 100% for fun. There’s no pressure on it because the second that you put money or attach money to it’s no longer going to be fun.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I wish more people understood that is if you… Everybody says, “Okay. Yeah. Again, I want to follow my passion. I want to do what I love.” As soon as you decide this is going to be how I make money, how I make my living, it’s so easy to become resentful of that thing because you’re not making enough money to succeed, and so then you start feeling bitter or you start not liking it because everything’s attached and all up in that now. Everything is dependent on that.
Erin McGoff:
I will say though, I don’t think there’s ever been a better time for creatives. I think it’s a really fantastic time to be creative because there’s so much demand for content everywhere. If you are creative… Parents will come to me and they’ll be like, “My kid wants to be a content creator. Can you talk to them?”
Tori Dunlap:
Then roll their eyes. Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
I’m like, “Why would I talk to them?” If they have the drive, if they have the talent, if they have the business sense, why wouldn’t they go for that? They can just try it out. They can get a real job on the side or get a degree or whatever, but don’t discourage something that people are making millions of dollars from in their apartments.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. One of the reasons we really wanted to have you on the show, besides loving your work, is we haven’t done an actually career episode in a minute. I feel like the job market is changing so quickly, so even a six months ago episode might not be relevant. What are the trends you’re currently seeing right now for finding a job?
Erin McGoff:
I’d say the biggest issue job seekers are having at the moment is this phenomenon of these ghost jobs. Not just ghost jobs, but a breakdown in the process of online hiring.
Tori Dunlap:
Can we talk about… Can we define what a ghost job is?
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Ghost jobs are jobs listings that are… They fall on a spectrum. Either they’re completely fake and the company posted it with no intention of filling it, or companies posted it with maybe they need to hire that person, but it’s just not urgent.
Tori Dunlap:
Why would you as a company post something that you don’t need? Why would you do that?
Erin McGoff:
There are a few reasons for it. Number one is during the pandemic, a lot of companies did really well. As we’re coming off the heels of the pandemic, they want to keep stakeholders and shareholders happy. They’ll post open jobs because it makes companies look really good when they’re hiring.
Tori Dunlap:
Interesting. Got it.
Erin McGoff:
They’ll post open jobs to be like, “Hey, we’re growing. Look at us.”
Tori Dunlap:
As opposed to, “We’re laying everybody off.”
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
But there’s a ton of reasons, you gain market insight because you’re seeing who’s applying. You can gain an advantage on your competitors by interviewing people who work there. Also, there’s just straight up scams. It’s a hodgepodge of different reasons, but it is an epidemic right now. Yeah. It’s leading people to a lot of very reasonable frustration because they will spend all this time detailing their resume and writing a cover letter and applying to a job that simply doesn’t exist.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Erin McGoff:
There’s no easy solution because Indeed in LinkedIn and all these big job boards, they can’t tell what’s a job posted in earnest and what’s not. This is why it is so crucial right now to be networking, and I know people hate that advice because they’re like, “I don’t want to network. I just want to sit at home, and I’m an introvert.” But guys, it is so much easier to get a job through networking-
Tori Dunlap:
It really is.
Erin McGoff:
… than it is through submitting a tailored resume 150 times. I work with people every day, and every single one who has gotten a good job where it’s like they love the people they work with, it’s hybrid, and it pays really well, and they love the work they do most days, they got it through someone they know.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I want to talk about networking in a second. But with ghost jobs, how do we determine… Are there red flags where you go, “That’s clearly a ghost job to avoid”?
Erin McGoff:
Great question. Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Erin McGoff:
You can’t tell if something is a ghost job, but a few red flags are if it’s been up for more than 30, 60 days, and if there’s thousands of applicants, it might be, it might not be. Another indicator, a really strong red flag is if it’s poorly written. If it’s like, “We need a rock star guru who does this-“
Tori Dunlap:
Ninja. Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Ninja, and you’re like-
Tori Dunlap:
This feels like AI.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. You can’t tell necessarily, but those are some red flags.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. That’s super helpful. You posted recently, quote, “I’m going to hold your hand when I say this, but blitz applying to hundreds of jobs is ironically the worst way to try and get a new job.” You just said this. Why is that bad? I have my own theory about why that’s bad.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. I’d love to hear it. Sure it’s similar to mine.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. It’s the like… Okay. I get it in some way because I do think finding a job is a numbers game. I think a lot of people are like, “Okay. Cool. I applied to two jobs this week.” I’m like, “That’s-“
Erin McGoff:
A little too low.
Tori Dunlap:
… “That’s not going to do it.” But at the same time, that desperate energy takes over where you’re just like, “Okay. The LinkedIn just says quick apply. Okay. I’m just going to quick apply.” Then it’s just like you’re one in many because you’re not… You don’t actually maybe even want the job too.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Quick apply and easy apply are awful.
Tori Dunlap:
Dangerous tools.
Erin McGoff:
Awful. Do not use those features. I’m so sorry LinkedIn and Indeed, I love y’all, but those have ruined the job market. That’s a hot take, but I stand by it.
Tori Dunlap:
No. I agree. It’s nice if you’re a job seeker in theory, but then again, it’s not actually-
Erin McGoff:
You’re just like everybody else. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re not actually doing what you need to do.
Erin McGoff:
I think that it highly depends on the role. If you’re highly skilled in an [inaudible 00:17:39] industry, yeah, fire them off. You’re going to get an interview like that. Or if you’re applying for a service level role or unskilled labor, yeah, you’re probably going to get a job. That is throwing spaghetti at the wall.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
However-
Tori Dunlap:
She put unskilled in quotes by the way. If you are listening-
Erin McGoff:
Unskilled.
Tori Dunlap:
We’re not trying to get canceled today.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. That’s just what it’s called, unskilled.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. No. I totally get it. Yeah. Why is this so damaging? Why should we not just blitz our way through the job application process?
Erin McGoff:
It’s just a waste of your time. People hate it when I say this because it’s not cute advice because it’s like, “Well, Erin, what am I supposed to do?”
Tori Dunlap:
Try and that’s hard.
Erin McGoff:
The problem is with the blitz is you’re just like everybody else. Everybody else is blitzing too. It’s not random who companies hire. They’re not picking resumes with their eyes closed. They’re picking the resumes that they think align with the job description the most, and probably half those jobs you’re applying to don’t even exist. You’re literally wasting your time. I always recommend… That’s an example of a job-forward approach. If somebody’s like, “I want to get a new job as a project manager,” so they go to LinkedIn. They search, “Project manager, New York City,” and they apply, apply, [inaudible 00:18:47], blitz apply. That’s a job-forward approach. They’re going to the market, they’re seeing what jobs are open and they’re applying. In my opinion, what’s it called when something’s… Shoot. I’m bad at the phrases. League-
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 00:19:00]-
Erin McGoff:
Bush league.
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 00:19:03] going to say butch league, but yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Okay. We’ll cut that part out.
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 00:19:08]-
Erin McGoff:
Anyway, that’s-
Tori Dunlap:
Bush league.
Erin McGoff:
That’s small potatoes.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Sure.
Erin McGoff:
I’m always really bad at phrases, but I use that really confidently.
Tori Dunlap:
No. I get it. I am so well-spoken then I get on my mic and I’m like, “[inaudible 00:19:18].”
Erin McGoff:
No. Basically that is the hardest way in my opinion to go about it. Again, different roles, different industries. Take everything I say with a massive grain of salt, but that is the hardest way to go about things. Now let’s look at a company-forward approach, which is what I recommend people do who are struggling to find a job. Say you’re the project manager, you’re looking for a project manager role in New York City. I want people to go out and list 10 to 20 companies that they would like to work for. They’ve gone to the company website. They like their benefits. It doesn’t even matter if these companies are hiring or not because you know what? They probably are hiring and they just haven’t posted the job. The hidden job market is so real, especially right now with the breakdown in the process of online hiring.
People are getting hired through word of mouth like crazy right now, and that’s why of course the networking is so important. I always recommend find 10 to 20 companies that you would want to work for. You read good things on their Glassdoor. You read good things on their LinkedIn. You like what they’re doing. You like their values. Maybe you know a few people who work there and they love it. Who cares if they have an open role? Start stalking them. Start connecting with them. Proactively reach out. Then you know what? When a role opens up, you know they’re going to call? You. I highly recommend a company-forward approach. Again, everybody’s situation is different. Industries are different. That’s just from my experience helping millions of people land awesome jobs. That’s just what I see work the most.
Tori Dunlap:
I’m now doing the tally in my head of my own team of almost… I think almost everybody came to us because they worked with one of my team members at a previous job, or we know their old employer and they have nothing but nice things to say. I think that’s the vast majority of my team. I think very few of them-
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. That’s the hidden job market.
Tori Dunlap:
… were cold applications. Yeah. Again, as someone who hires, it expedites the process. It’s so much easier. I would also say if you’re looking for a job, speaking of networking, start introducing yourself to people. One of my friends who’s also now working with us, she… Actually you might know her, Jess Hawks. She… Another big TikTok exploded, but she was a virtual assistant and continues to be and teaches other people to be a virtual assistant.
Erin McGoff:
Cool.
Tori Dunlap:
Anytime I’ve needed VA, exec assistant, social media, project management stuff, I’ve gone to her and been like, “Hey, so you teach people how to do this. Who do you recommend?” I accidentally politely stole almost her entire networking team, and now she is working with us too. That’s a perfect example of someone who’s teaching people to do that job has a network of people that they’ve taught, and so finding the person that’s person that knows everybody.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. You know what’s funny, Tori? Is like you really get this because you hire. The second you start to hire, you’re like, “I get it. I don’t want to see a generic resume.”
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely not.
Erin McGoff:
I want to see a tailored resume where somebody put time in and the people who write the follow-up email and they send a little note, they go right to the top of my pile because they’re showing initiative. That’s not just me, that’s anybody who hires.
Tori Dunlap:
Can we talk about that? What is the checklist of things that you should absolutely do and the checklist of things you should definitely not do? I can chime in too because there’s certain things I’m like, “No. Absolutely not.”
Erin McGoff:
I’s love to hear you. What do you think?
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. First of all, we cannot accept gifts legally. That has happened before-
Erin McGoff:
Legally?
Tori Dunlap:
We’re very kind people… Because it’s a bribe.
Erin McGoff:
But you’re not like a federal government employee.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. But still it feels weird. I don’t know. My lawyers are like, “No, no, no.” They’ll send a nice… A note is great, but a Starbucks gift card or something like that. No, because then it just gets into weird…
Erin McGoff:
Well, it’s just like aco-taco.
Tori Dunlap:
A weird legality territory where I’m like, “If I give you the job, is it because-
Erin McGoff:
Of the Taco Bell gift card?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Truly. Super sweet. I would say probably not for that. One of the dos is definitely tailor your resume. For me, especially because I were a mission-driven company, if you want to do mission-driven work, and I’m sure most people do, understand our mission.
Erin McGoff:
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap:
Communicate that you understand it, and communicate that you want to be part of it. Because again, I can definitely tell when it’s cold. Typos.
Erin McGoff:
It’s such an easy one.
Tori Dunlap:
I’ll excuse one, but especially if I’m hiring somebody to do social media or copywriting, if there’s a typo in your resume… Because that’s the other thing, and I know you talk about this, I am looking for reasons to put your resume in the no pile. Because I have 25 resumes I’m getting every hour, so it’s a lot easier for me to say no than it’s to say yes. If you give me an easy reason to say no, I’m going to take it.
Erin McGoff:
Going to take it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Other things, I’m trying to think of-
Erin McGoff:
That’s something people don’t realize. I review resumes, I do these free resume reviews, and free time, I see a typo. They also have detail oriented under their skills section. It’s like a running joke with my followers. I’m like, “There it is.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I would say… One of the things that is so helpful for us, and this is more interview and this is what I teach, we don’t do as much career content anymore from me because I’ve been out of the job market for a while. But one of the things I always teach people is to prepare for the interview look at the job description and have specific, specific stories or examples of ways you’ve done that. If it is, okay, manages projects on time. I’m going to ask you a question about that in the interview. Probably going to ask you a question even in the application. If you can go, “I’ve done X, Y, and Z for this previous company,” or, “This happened, and here’s how I handled it,” that helps me because you have tangible experience. It’s not just you’ve put the right words on the resume.
Erin McGoff:
Absolutely. You got to have story time. They’re called behavioral interview questions, and it’s when they ask you, “Tell me about a time you failed? Tell me about a time you showed leadership?” You need to have those stories prepared because they’re really hard to think of on the spot. But yeah, I talk to recruiters all the time. I actually just posted a survey on my LinkedIn trying to get more information from recruiters. Something that I hear a lot is that people just don’t read the job description. They’re like, “People don’t understand how much time and effort we actually…” That’s most of their job is writing job descriptions. They’re like, “They’re a road map. They are your treasure map to an interview.”
Tori Dunlap:
We give you exactly…. That’s so true. We give you exactly what you need to do to come in and kill it-
Erin McGoff:
Just repeat it.
Tori Dunlap:
… and it’s all in the job description.
Erin McGoff:
If you can go into an interview and just repeat phrases from the job-
Tori Dunlap:
Literally.
Erin McGoff:
That’s all they want to hear because they’re checking off a little checklist. Especially if you’re interviewing at a big corporate company where you’re going to go through several phases. That first interview is screening. They want to hear phrases from that job description, and that’s it. You just got to repeat them as much as possible. Not in a weird way, but-
Tori Dunlap:
Any other dos and don’ts that you can think about?
Erin McGoff:
About applying to jobs?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
I would say do embrace LinkedIn. I feel like LinkedIn gets a lot of hate for LinkedInfluencers, and it’s so cringey. But guys, it’s an incredibly powerful platform.
Tori Dunlap:
It really is.
Erin McGoff:
It’s a global Facebook that’s a directory of everybody in the professional world. I use LinkedIn every single day.
Tori Dunlap:
Me too. Me too.
Erin McGoff:
It’s an incredible platform. Create a LinkedIn profile, especially write that lower third, or… That’s my film industry speak coming in. But that summary under your name, if you write that correctly, I did a whole YouTube video on this, recruiters will find you. You want recruiters coming to you.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t want to give it away, but give me one or two tips from that video?
Erin McGoff:
Oh my gosh. Well, if you want a job, put that job in that little summary section. If you’re looking for a job as a project manager, say, “Skilled project manager with seven plus years of experience,” or whatever it is. Put the buzzwords in that, for example-
Tori Dunlap:
That’s probably an SEO thing too, because-
Erin McGoff:
You’re writing a blog post for yourself.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Exactly. Yours and mine I think are really similar. We both have some accolades. We have what we do for a living. You can embrace AI. You can use a tool or something to teach you, but there are tons of different blog posts and YouTube videos that can teach you how to do that. But yeah, I would say definitely embrace LinkedIn. Don’t be afraid to message people on LinkedIn, and be polite. I think people don’t realize how far manners go, especially when you’re dealing with a recruiter or a business owner is somebody who’s hiring. The last thing we want is somebody who’s just rude. Just say please and thank you. Have professional email etiquette. Master the art of written communication because the easiest way to come off unprofessional is by sending an email that’s just typo-ridden, and it’s just it’s something that’s so easy to get right.
Tori Dunlap:
I would also say, again, we’re dancing around this, don’t apply for a job that you don’t actually want. It’s not a good use of your time. It’s not a good use of the hirers, hirer, but the person who’s hiring’s time. I know you might think, oh my God, okay, I need to find a job because I did this shit in my early twenties. I was like, “Oh my God, I need to find a job. I’ll just apply.” It’s like don’t do that. That’s a waste of everybody’s time.
Erin McGoff:
One thing I will say is that it’s easier to get a job when you have a job. It’s so ironic, but I have a lot of people who I work with who have been laid off for a long time.
Tori Dunlap:
A year. I’ve seen a couple on LinkedIn of like, “I’ve been laid off for a year, a year and a half.” It’s bad.
Erin McGoff:
I get people who’ve been laid off for three years.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, boy.
Erin McGoff:
I just tell them, like… I give a lot of advice that I feel like gets people to roll their eyes, but if you actually listen to me. Get a job while you look for a job. That doesn’t mean I’m not telling you to get a job, get the job you’re looking for. Just do something. Drive Uber. Dog sit. I know a lot of people are doing this. That’s one version of it. You could also just get an ancillary job, something that’s similar, but not really. Do marketing for a local cafe if you’re trying to get a job as a marketer. Find something where maybe you could freelance or consult because it’s so much easier to get a job and you have a job. That way you don’t have that gap on your resume if you freelance while you’re unemployed. That can really, really help because gaps in the resume are not super welcome in America.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s also so that you are not forced to take a job that you know is not going to respect you. I think that’s the other… Honestly, long-term, the most compelling thing is it’s like you can be picky or you can go, “You know what? There were a lot of red flags in that interview, and I’m okay. I can wait that out.” Because that’s what I did. I remember especially my first job out of college, now, again, tons of privilege in this. I had some family support at the time. They weren’t kicking me out immediately. But it was like, “Okay. I can choose a job that is the right fit.” Now it wasn’t the perfect fit, especially when I got in, but I remember my first job offer was $32,000. For someone who had two bachelor’s degrees, who had multiple internships, multiple jobs, who worked her ass off in college, both my parents were like, “That’s pretty low.” It was that moment of I don’t have to absolutely take this job because I have some financial security.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Absolutely. Something else to add too, because I work with a lot of Gen Z’s, is that you’re not going to like your career at first.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re definitely not. Work is not… No one dreams of labor.
Erin McGoff:
You’re not going to love your first job. In fact, you might not even love your second or third job because you’re new. When you’re early on in your career, I see this life cycle happen. People go to college, they’re really jazz or jazz for their career. They get that first job. It sucks. It sucks because they’re new. You’re new at a company. You’re going up this huge… You’ve got this huge learning curve. You’re in the real world. You got to pay taxes. It’s like… It’s awful. I lived in a cockroach-filled… It sucks. We all do it, and it gets better. You gain more confidence, you learn the lingo, you meet more people, and then you get a better job. It’s just things suck when you’re new with them. Everything sucks when you’re new. It doesn’t need to suck that much though. If it really sucks, get out of there, but I’m just saying it’s not going to be amazing the second you get out of college.
Tori Dunlap:
Team, I hope you’re taking notes as long as you’re not driving, because this episode is jam-packed with great advice. When we come back, Erin and I dive into the idea of a dream job, how to work through rejection and what I personally look for when hiring for Her First $100K. Stay tuned. Can we talk about that belief of a dream job? I was just joking, “No one dreams of labor,” but it’s true. I think… Again, I had this experience. I’m sure you did too. Got into my job in my twenties, and I was like, “Okay. I’m going to girlboss my way up the corporate ladder, and I’m going to stomp the fucking pavement with my little cute briefcase.” Got in, was like, “Boy, oh boy, this is awful. This is so much sexism. This was so much more sexist than I thought it would be.” You think that there is a dream job, even though people tell you there’s not. There’s no dream job, right?
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Well, my opinion on it, like all of my opinions, is very optimistic.
Tori Dunlap:
There’s nuance here. Sure. Okay.
Erin McGoff:
It’s nuanced and optimistic. I’m an optimist in general.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Me too.
Erin McGoff:
I believe a dream job is a job that allows you to live a dream life.
Tori Dunlap:
Say that again?
Erin McGoff:
I believe a dream job is a job that allows you to live your dream life. My dream job… Let’s take me for example. My dream job is directing films in Hollywood. That’s why I went to film school to become a director.
Tori Dunlap:
My dream job is being an actor professionally.
Erin McGoff:
Exactly. Look at us now. No.
Tori Dunlap:
Podcasts and Spotify studios. Close.
Erin McGoff:
But what happened is I got out of college, I was working on set. It sucked. I got yelled at. I got screamed at. It is not a good environment. A lot of the sets were great, but some of them were terrible. In addition to that, getting paid absolute shit. Hours, awful. 12 to 16 hour days on set out in the freezing cold in New York City. It was awful. I realized that I would’ve to dedicate my entire life to this. That means I can’t work at home on the couch with my dog. I can’t go on vacation with my family to the beach. I couldn’t do all these things that I actually really, really wanted to do.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, that’s back to your original point, which is it sounded like you wanted a lifestyle, not a career.
Erin McGoff:
I’m lifestyle centered, but I was living a career-centered life, and so I realized, do I really want to give up everything to be a really famous director?
Tori Dunlap:
Because plenty of people do.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
That’s great. I realized that I actually really, really like hanging out with my friends, and I like having a nice apartment. I like having money.
Tori Dunlap:
Having savings. Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. I really want to travel. I really want to prioritize my family and my community. For me, I needed a job that fit into that dream life, and this is it. I’m so grateful, and I’m so lucky.
Tori Dunlap:
Living the dream.
Erin McGoff:
I get to help people. I get to make money doing that. I get to do it at home with my dog. It’s awesome.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. That’s my take on that.
Tori Dunlap:
No. I think that’s so smart. Again, find something you… It doesn’t have to be the passion, but we definitely want to find something we care about, something we’re passionate about.
Erin McGoff:
Have to.
Tori Dunlap:
Because-
Erin McGoff:
You have to.
Tori Dunlap:
… you’re going to burn out if you don’t.
Erin McGoff:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
Also, again, as soon as you try to make… You have one singular focus, I think just that’s sometimes really damaging, especially if you want to a certain lifestyle
Erin McGoff:
You have to be adaptable. There’s all these studies in psychology. I do a lot of research on burnout, and there’s not a lot of good reputable studies on burnout, but there’s a ton of good studies on happiness at work. Something that everybody comes to the conclusion of is you have to have a little bit of joy in your work. A lot of the times people think that burnout is caused by too much bad and sad and meanness.
Tori Dunlap:
No. It’s because you don’t have the purpose.
Erin McGoff:
It’s because you don’t have any joy.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
You go through your whole day, and you don’t smile one time. That’s why. Yeah. I always encourage people to get a hobby. You got to incorporate some joy back in your life. Listen, no job is going to make you happy every single day.
Tori Dunlap:
No.
Erin McGoff:
We both have an amazing job, and some days this job sucks.
Tori Dunlap:
Absolutely sucks.
Erin McGoff:
I read my YouTube comments this morning. Don’t do that.
Tori Dunlap:
I read comments last night, and I had to call my partner and get talked down because I was like, “I’m having the fight or flight thing again.”
Erin McGoff:
Oh my gosh.
Tori Dunlap:
He’s like, “I know you are.” I’m like, “Is that good?”
Erin McGoff:
It’s all men in their basements too. I’m like, “Guys.”
Tori Dunlap:
The women are the ones that get me. I don’t fucking care about the men.
Erin McGoff:
Really?
Tori Dunlap:
It’s the women.
Erin McGoff:
Okay. I was just telling my husband this morning, “I have not seen one negative comment from a woman on YouTube.” On the other platforms, but for me, it’s dudes in their basement. But anyway, you’ve a purely female audience, right?
Tori Dunlap:
95%.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Mine’s like 75.
Tori Dunlap:
The content makes it on… I actually know the content’s doing well when it makes it to bro side of the platform. Then it’s… Not exaggerating, it is a, “You’re fat. You’re unlovable. Go kill yourself,” every minute is another comment.
Erin McGoff:
How do you maintain confidence? Do you have any tips for having thick skin and stuff?
Tori Dunlap:
Now I’m on your podcast. Hello?
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s a conversation for another time. I don’t know. It’s a lot. Honestly, I’ve never based my self-worth on other people. I have a million other things that I am working on, but every time I go in a new therapist office, I’m like, “Hi, we’re not going to have a self-worth problem. We’re going to have a million other problems, but you don’t have to worry about that with me.” I think that’s one thing. The ones that bother me are not the… I’d be lying if I came out completely unscathed from everything, but those are the ones that bother me. It’s the comments from women.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. I know. I’ve worked in the film industry. Women-
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. It’s the ones who are like, “Why are you bragging?” Or, “You think you’re such hot shit.” I found a Reddit thread about myself last week.
Erin McGoff:
Don’t do that. Don’t do that.
Tori Dunlap:
No. I didn’t mean to. It was accidental. Yeah. It was rough. Or when people tell their version of something that happened, and it’s not true, whether that’s ex-team members or just people who have a perception of who I am.
Erin McGoff:
You just have to let go and let God.
Tori Dunlap:
I really try to, but it’s like… People don’t realize this about me, if you were to point to any fictional character and say, “That’s Tori Dunlap,” it’s Leslie Knope. Literally, she is-
Erin McGoff:
People say that about me too. Waffles.
Tori Dunlap:
Really?
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. I’m a waffles girl.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. She is like… I’m an Enneagram too. I’m a cancer. People don’t know that about me. If you know me in real life, I am the most soft. I cry at everything.
Erin McGoff:
You’re very sensitive.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. But my online persona is like-
Erin McGoff:
It’s very-
Tori Dunlap:
… Capricorn, Scorpio.
Erin McGoff:
… come at me I’ll-
Tori Dunlap:
Truly.
Erin McGoff:
… cut you with a knife.
Tori Dunlap:
That is a part of me. But at the end of the day, I’m like, “I just want to be liked. I want to be loved. I want to be respected.” I also… My goal for my thirties because I just turned 30 recently.
Erin McGoff:
Congrats.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you. How old are you?
Erin McGoff:
29.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. Great. My goal for my thirties is to be okay being misunderstood.
Erin McGoff:
The let them theory. Huh?
Tori Dunlap:
Truly. Mel Robbins-
Erin McGoff:
Thanks Mel Robbins.
Tori Dunlap:
… is coming on the show. Hello, Mel Robbins. But no, just like, “Okay. You’re going to think what you’re going to think about me.” I really want to defend myself, and I want to say, “No, but that’s not true.” Again, it’s Leslie Knope. I want to take him out bowling to convince him to vote for me. But it’s just like, “You know what? That’s not my responsibility.
Erin McGoff:
That’s not your job. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
You can’t control other people. I always tell people, there’s going to be one to 3% of the people you’ve meet in your life who are just going to not like you for entirely personal reasons.
Tori Dunlap:
There’s one to 3% of people I don’t like.
Erin McGoff:
We all have people we’re just like, “I just don’t like them”.
Tori Dunlap:
I get weird vibes off that person or just… Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. But there’s nothing you can do. You could be a perfect human being, and they would still not like you because there’s something about you that they don’t like about themselves.
Tori Dunlap:
There’s a mirror up to… Yep. That’s always what I say.
Erin McGoff:
They’re just projecting.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s the thing that feels really harmful though when it is women is I get sad for myself, but I more get sad for her where I’m just like, “We’re still doing this?”
Erin McGoff:
I know.
Tori Dunlap:
Have you seen the Barbie movie?
Erin McGoff:
I’m like, “Didn’t we get past this?”
Tori Dunlap:
We’re still doing this?
Erin McGoff:
We have Taylor Swift now and Beyonce.
Tori Dunlap:
I know, but she’s the kind of woman that’s like, “Which one is better?” It’s like, “No. Just like…”
Erin McGoff:
There’s crowns for everyone. Mean girls.
Tori Dunlap:
Truly. Truly. It’s… Yeah. The one that we were talking about, we call it bikinigate internally [inaudible 00:39:47] I posted the photo about the bikini and a bunch of people-
Erin McGoff:
Bikinigate. That’s amazing.
Tori Dunlap:
For listeners who may not be aware, I posted a photo in a bikini on my vacation in Italy last July, and we lost 50,000 followers overnight. One night.
Erin McGoff:
Jesus.
Tori Dunlap:
Crazy. There was one woman who was the full embodiment of this. She was literally commented and she was like, “I look like you. I have a body you, and I would never think to post in a bikini because I don’t really like myself that much.” That was literally the comment. I was like, “You literally just described what’s going on here, which is like you see…” She’s like, “I could never picture doing that, so I’m not sure why you’re doing that.”
Erin McGoff:
You’re like, “Bestie, just post it.”
Tori Dunlap:
Post it. Live your life.
Erin McGoff:
[inaudible 00:40:26]-
Tori Dunlap:
She’s like, “I would never wear a bikini. I would never ever do that, and I can’t believe you feel comfortable doing that.” I’m like, “Oh.” This is literally what we’re trying to do here is you watch a woman like herself, and that feels deeply uncomfortable because you realize you might not.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I know.
Erin McGoff:
I love the phrase don’t get mad, get curious.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Erin McGoff:
It’s my mantra. I always try to think, why would they comment that? They must really be having a hard day.
Tori Dunlap:
Let’s bring that… I’m going to bring us back to jobs. But that’s a perfect example of job searching is really hard, you’re getting told no a lot. It’s easy to take that personally. It’s easy to think I didn’t do enough or I didn’t show up in the job correctly. I do love curiosity as an answer to that. Somebody listening who is in the throes of the job-seeking world, who’s like, “God, I can’t make anything work.” Or I get to the final interview, that was me for a really long time in my career. I got to the final interview and they chose somebody else over me. What do we say? What do we do? How do we feel?
Erin McGoff:
Man, I talk to people all the time about this. The one thing you got to remember is that a lot of companies are really bad at hiring. They might’ve actually hired the wrong person, or they might’ve hired the CEO’s nephew. You never know why they hired who they hired. You should always ask for feedback and listen to it with open ears, but you never know. You know what happens a lot of the time is that in a month or two, that person doesn’t work out. That’s why you got to send that response email to a rejection because you want to be top of mind for them. People think when you don’t get a job, that door is slammed forever.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s definitely not.
Erin McGoff:
It’s just one position at one company, one week. They could open up a new position next week.
Tori Dunlap:
Or you’re not the right fit for that job. We’ve literally had that where we’ve hired somebody for a different role because we’re like, “I don’t think they would be a good fit here,” or we found somebody who would be a better fit for this job and it was nothing… It’s never anything personal. But then it’s like, “Actually we need this type of person in this type of role. We talked to that person six months ago. They were great. Pick up the phone, call.” Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Literally, you don’t understand this until you hire, but you’re like, “I wish I could hire all of you. You’re all amazing-“
Tori Dunlap:
Truly.
Erin McGoff:
“… but I just had to pick one. This person just had a quarter of an inch of an advantage over you with this skill,” or maybe the communication skills were a little better.
Tori Dunlap:
Or they’ve had five years more of experience. You can’t control that.
Erin McGoff:
You can’t control it. I do think that you do need to assess like, “What could I do to improve?” Because oftentimes people will be unaware. They won’t realize that if they go into a job interview, they make this crucial error. If you never get feedback on that error, you’re going to keep making it forever and it’s going to keep screwing you over.
Tori Dunlap:
What error? What might that be?
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Something that I hear a lot from recruiters, I talk to recruiters a lot because I just try to get what’s going on on the ground, so etiquette skills. It’s something I’m really passionate about is teaching people about etiquette, because, yes, it’s annoying, but it’s also the way the world works. I don’t want somebody [inaudible 00:43:24]-
Tori Dunlap:
Erin’s like, “Show on time, Tori,” because I was a half hour late to this interview by accident.
Erin McGoff:
Hell no. You had a great excuse.
Tori Dunlap:
Show up late or show up on time.
Erin McGoff:
I’m chilling. I’m happy to be here. But this is why I always recommend that people either film themselves when they’re practicing for a job interview, or they do a mock interview with a friend who’s ready and willing to roast them. Don’t do it with your mom, y’all, unless she’s mean. Do it with somebody who’s going to give you feedback. Because humans are so not self-aware. We have no clue. I play with my hair all the time, so I put it up during podcast interviews because I would be playing with it because it’s just something that I do that I can’t really even control. You have to have somebody tell you.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re fidgeting.
Erin McGoff:
I say like a lot. “Erin, you said like so much. Maybe scale that back.” The problem in the United States especially, or maybe this is an issue everywhere, is that a lot of the times companies won’t actually give you feedback to why you didn’t get the job for legal reasons. Because if they tell you it was for this reason, it opens up a door of liability for them. That’s why it’s really important to either get feedback in person or get feedback from a friend or something in a mock interview.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s also sometimes when people have asked for feedback… There’s times where it is just truly like, “This other person was a better fit and there’s nothing you could have done.”
Erin McGoff:
It was a vibe thing. Yep. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Then there’s sometimes where I’m like, “It was so disastrous.”
Erin McGoff:
It was a you problem.
Tori Dunlap:
I either have to sit and give you three hours of career advice or I just say, “No, we don’t have any feedback for you,” because I’m like, “I can’t devastate you today.”
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s tough. But yeah, sometimes you do interview people and you’re like, “You’re in sweatpants on FaceTime. Maybe not.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Or you don’t answer my question. I think that’s the most common thing is I ask you a question, and of course I have the answer in my head of what I’d like to see. No one’s a mind reader, but I do think I’m looking for a version of that answer. If you don’t answer the question or you give an answer that’s so far removed from the job, and especially over and over and over again, that’s the biggest reason why we don’t hire people.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Another thing that I see that’s really common is people talk about themselves too much.
Tori Dunlap:
As opposed to what they’re going to do to contribute to the company.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. You need to provide… You need to think of yourself as a product. I know that sounds weird, but when you’re hiring, you do look at people as like, “Okay. Here’s this, this, and this. These are all different people, different packages that I could buy for this role.” You need to think of yourself as like, “How am I packaged? What are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? What am I doing to work on them?” Think of yourself as a brand.
I always tell people, as a freelancer, I had to brand myself. I had to be like, “I’m a white glove service. I am a commercial video editor. I can do nonfiction. I do sizzle reels. This is my niche. If you hire me, I will deliver to you.” Everyone needs to think of themselves as a freelancer. Don’t think of yourself as I graduated with my business degree and I just need a job. No. What are you? What value do you provide to the company? Are you going to be in this software or this specialty or this sales? What do you bring to the role? Because if you don’t do that work, you’re going to lose the job to somebody who did.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and again, I’m about to spend money, and if you’re an employee, 401(k) and health insurance and family leave. I have to make sure that someone’s going to come in and pay for themselves.
Erin McGoff:
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s the biggest thing I’m looking for. Of course, do you fit in well? Do you care about the company? But at the end of the day, the person who’s getting the job is the person who’s like, “Yeah. I’m going to provide value, and here are the concrete ways I’ve provided value somewhere else.”
Erin McGoff:
Exactly. That’s so true. Something else that I encourage people to think about is when a company is hiring for a role, they need someone to do a job that is not getting done. Like you. You’re a small business. If you need a podcast editor, you needed a podcast editor yesterday.
Tori Dunlap:
Literally. Yes. If I’m hiring it’s probably… We now proactively hire, but we proactively hire knowing that, yeah, we need somebody right now.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. You just want to come in and say, “Hey, girl. I’m a pro podcast editor.”
Tori Dunlap:
“I can do it.”
Erin McGoff:
“I’m going to do it. I’m going to get it on schedule. I’m ahead time.”
Tori Dunlap:
“And what I don’t know, I’m going to learn. I’m going to be self-sufficient in that learning.”
Erin McGoff:
“I’m scrappy. I’m resourceful.” Music to someone’s ears.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Then also prove to me that you’ve done it somewhere else.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Don’t just-
Tori Dunlap:
Say that you’ve done it.
Erin McGoff:
… blow smoke.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. But also, don’t talk about how this would look so good on my resume. This would look good on my portfolio.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh my God. No.
Erin McGoff:
No one cares.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I’m looking for someone to come in and do the job, provide the value. I think it’s the same thing with salary negotiation, as a lot of people get in and they’re like, “Well, I need this amount of money, and I’ve done the math in order to afford rent at this place.” I’m like, “That’s not how we negotiate salary, everybody.”
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Or my student loans are coming up, and I got to pay them.” They do not care.
Tori Dunlap:
No. It has nothing to do with you actually. It has nothing to do with you. That actually helps make it less personal so that you can walk in and ask for the number that you found talking with people or on Glassdoor or what you know should be getting paid. Not what I need to afford a two bedroom as opposed to a one bedroom apartment.
Erin McGoff:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you for considering our sponsors. They allow us to produce this podcast free for you. When we come back, we’re talking more about how to network better regardless of if you’re an introvert or an extrovert, and how I feel when people cold out reach me. We’re also talking about side hustles, so I’ll see you back here in a few. We’ve been talking about networking. Again, everybody’s like, “I don’t want to do it.” I think to wax poetic about networking for me really quick, I do think the definition, people think it’s suit, handshake at the hotel bar.
Erin McGoff:
Styrofoam coffee cup and a name tag.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Truly. Then like, “I will connect with you on a platform,” and that’s not what networking is. Talk to me about what you view good networking as and how we can use that to build our career?
Erin McGoff:
This is my favorite topic, Tori. I love networking. Just a little disclaimer here, y’all, I’m an introvert. I’m actually a shy introvert. I know my videos, I come off be really confident and all this stuff. I am confident, but I prefer to be at home on my couch with my dog.
Tori Dunlap:
Me too.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
I’ve realized I’m way more introverted than I thought I was.
Erin McGoff:
As I get older, but most successful people I know are huge introverts. Introvert does not mean that you are socially awkward. It just means that you’re an introvert. That you like to be alone.
Tori Dunlap:
That you get energy from not other people.
Erin McGoff:
From being alone.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Something that I think people put a lot of blocks in their mind when they think, well, I’m just not confident. I’m just shy. I’m just an introvert. I’m not like that. It’s like, “Great. Those thought processes are doing nothing for you. You’re just limiting yourself.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. They’re limiting beliefs.
Erin McGoff:
Networking doesn’t have to be in the conference room with a styrofoam cup. Networking can be dog walking in a nice neighborhood. Honestly, that’s one of the best ways to network. Driving Lyft. I drove in college just to network. I would drive around the nice parts of town, and I’d pick people up. That was back when you would talk to people, or I guess maybe that’s just in New York you don’t talk to people. But there’s so many fantastic ways to network. Weddings. Great place to network. Just introduce yourself, “Hi. How do you know the bride and groom?” Birthday parties. I call this, this whole section that I’m talking about, out of context networking. In context networking is what you were just talking about with the conference room and the styrofoam cup and all of that.
Tori Dunlap:
Industry events.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Everyone is there with the expectation to network, and those are great places to do it because everyone’s there with the expectation. However, in those environments, people also have walls up because they’re like-
Tori Dunlap:
You’re just trying to get something from you.
Erin McGoff:
… “I’m here to network.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
When you are out of context, it is such a powerful way to network. Golf caddying at a country club. You need to put yourself in situations where there are powerful people, and they’re not thinking… They don’t have their work hat on, but instead they have their dad hat on or their wedding hat on. They’re the best places to network. Also, another great networking tip I have is couch networking. This is awesome for my introverts. You just sit on your couch in your pajamas and just fire off awesome emails and LinkedIn messages.
Tori Dunlap:
Asking informational interviews. That’s the big one I always recommend to people.
Erin McGoff:
Informational interviews are fantastic, especially if it’s a warm connection. If it’s somebody you’ve talked to in the past. I always recommend if you’re doing a cold outreach to not ask for anything, but just to provide value first. If you can send them like, “Hey, I noticed that you spoke on that panel and you mentioned this. I just heard this podcast episode that I thought you’d find really interesting.” Gold. I bet you get lots of cold outreaches, every day.
Tori Dunlap:
So much. I’m sure you do too.
Erin McGoff:
What’s a piece of advice that you would give to somebody who’s doing a cold message?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, God. This is another one where I’m going to bitch and moan for a while. Do not ask to pick my brain.
Erin McGoff:
Do not use the term pick my brain ever. I’m so sorry.
Tori Dunlap:
That phrase needs to go die a brutal death.
Erin McGoff:
Brutal. Or can you just hop on a call for a quick sec? Can you just hop Zoom call?
Tori Dunlap:
I charge $40,000 to speak on a keynote stage. Unless you are like… Which by the way, if you’re a college student, you don’t know that you have the most valuable tool in the entire world until you lose it, which is, “Hello, I’m a college student. I’m trying to figure out what my career is going to look like.” I am way more likely, of course, to give you my time than someone who is just like, “Yeah. Can I pick your brain?” There’s no focus. I think that’s my biggest issue.
Erin McGoff:
It’s general.
Tori Dunlap:
There’s no focus. I don’t know what this call’s about. I don’t know why you’re asking it. No.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
No. The pick my brain is really hard or the… I agree, especially if it’s cold and you’re immediately asking me for something. I think it’s hard anytime you’re reaching out to you or I because I’m not even exaggerating, probably, and the same for you, I get 500 DMs probably every two days.
Erin McGoff:
A day. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Email, LinkedIn, Instagram asking me-
Erin McGoff:
It’s a barrage. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
This big of a paragraph about their personal situation. I can also tell when you’ve done no research for yourself, and most people is they ask me… They’re very… They’re like, “Should I pay off debt first or save first?” I’m like, “Baby girl. Baby girl. I have a whole book about this. I have a start here page on my website. I’ve done multiple podcasts [inaudible 00:53:51]-“
Erin McGoff:
You make it very easy for people. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. So do you. I think that’s my other pet peeve too, is that if you’ve done no work for yourself. First of all, why would I also give you my time if I know that you probably won’t take my advice because you haven’t taken your own time to try to answer that question for yourself?
Erin McGoff:
Okay. Question for you.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah?
Erin McGoff:
Where’d you go to college?
Tori Dunlap:
I went to University of Portland.
Erin McGoff:
Okay. What if somebody reached out and they said-
Tori Dunlap:
I’m more likely [inaudible 00:54:14]-
Erin McGoff:
… “Hey, I was in the theater program.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Even if you were a pilot. If you went to the UP-
Erin McGoff:
That’s called a warm connection.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I’m more likely to-
Erin McGoff:
[inaudible 00:54:19] warm.
Tori Dunlap:
Of course. Yeah. Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
You have to make them warm somehow. That’s why if you went to college, y’all, and you have an alumni network.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
You are golden.
Tori Dunlap:
Also, your career center. Your career center at your college-
Erin McGoff:
They’re amazing.
Tori Dunlap:
… helps alumni. You can be 10 years out of college, 15 years out of college. At least at my university, and I think it’s the same for most universities, they have always said, “We help students and alumni.”
Erin McGoff:
They host alumni events all the time.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Well, and you can call and use the career center’s resources even if you’re not a student anymore.
Erin McGoff:
It’s truly amazing. You can join your university group on LinkedIn. I also… Whenever I’m giving this advice, I always think about people who didn’t go to college. There are tons of other organizations that you can-
Tori Dunlap:
High school even. It works the same way.
Erin McGoff:
Your high school. Your hometown. Hell, your sports team. If you reach out to somebody-
Tori Dunlap:
Your 4-H club.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. They’re called mutual affiliations. If you can find your mutual affiliation with somebody. I recently had a girl reach out to me, cold reach out, had nothing in common with this girl. She said, “Hey, I noticed that you’re really into rescue dogs. Our rescue dogs look similar.” I was like, “Girl, you poked the right part of me. What do you need? What do you need?”
Tori Dunlap:
Interesting.
Erin McGoff:
Because that is something I’m so passionate about. We had nothing in common, but I’ve totally responded to her email because she did a little bit of research on me and she-
Tori Dunlap:
Great.
Erin McGoff:
… found out what I really love. That’s another great career tip, just in general, if somebody has a dog or a child. Learn their name and remember the name.
Tori Dunlap:
In a non-creepy way.
Erin McGoff:
In a non-creepy way, and ask occasionally how they’re doing. How are your kids doing? How’s your dog, Olive, doing?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Well, do you watch The Office?
Erin McGoff:
[inaudible 00:55:50] my family’s from Scranton originally. My dad’s side.
Tori Dunlap:
The Electric City.
Erin McGoff:
The Electric City.
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 00:55:56] the electricity.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
The Office is my favorite show of all time.
Erin McGoff:
Michael Scott is my dad.
Tori Dunlap:
Amazing.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
But I was going to say one of the great things Michael does is he keeps his index cards and he is like, “[inaudible 00:56:08]-“
Erin McGoff:
That’s when you realize he’s legit.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. But it’s like, it’s so important because you and I both love when someone is like, “How’s that project doing?” You’re like, “That was really nice that they remembered.” I will also rebrand networking. I think just generally as people who give career and money advice, I try to not use the word network. It’s just like it’s just talking to people. That’s it.
Erin McGoff:
That’s all it is.
Tori Dunlap:
You wouldn’t go up to somebody on the street… This is what’s happening on social media. I wouldn’t go up to you if I didn’t know you and yell what my question is. That’s so true.
Erin McGoff:
“Can I take your brain?”
Tori Dunlap:
Truly. Right. But that’s what happens on social media. There’s no intro. I was going to say, there’s no foreplay. That’s not helpful.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I think that it’s just talking to people, and if that helps you mentally take the pressure off the interaction, I would recommend doing that.
Erin McGoff:
Absolutely. Also, don’t just do reach networking. Somebody reaching out to you for advice, that’s called reach networking. They need something from you. That’s good, but you should also do peer-to-peer networking. It’s crucial to network with people who are on the same playing field as you for two reasons. One, camaraderie. Come on, we’re in the trenches together. Let’s talk about it. Number two, you never know where people are going to go. The intern yesterday could be the VP tomorrow.
Tori Dunlap:
Truly.
Erin McGoff:
You have no clue. When you graduate college and you enter to the workforce, you think the world’s so big. You think you’re never going to see people again. Oh my goodness. The world is tiny. You have no clue where people are going to go. I encourage people to not burn bridges, and to be respectful to anybody who deserves it.
Tori Dunlap:
I think you burn bridges that deserve to be burned.
Erin McGoff:
Okay. But how do you determine what bridges those are?
Tori Dunlap:
You sexually harass or assault me.
Erin McGoff:
Okay, Tori. Let’s go there. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You make up lies about me to try to get me fired. These have all happened to me in my career, by the way.
Erin McGoff:
Torch it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I’m like, “You did not earn my respect. I’m absolutely not doing this.”
Erin McGoff:
Well, it sounds like they burn bridges with you.
Tori Dunlap:
True.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Good point, Erin.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. You didn’t burn bridges with them.
Tori Dunlap:
Good point. But yeah, there’s certain people… I sometimes fantasize about this before I’m falling asleep at night. I’m like, “I would love to see that person.”
Erin McGoff:
They see you. They see you all the time.
Tori Dunlap:
I know. It’s my ultimate form of revenge. Good luck walking into any bookstore and not seeing my face-
Erin McGoff:
We’re both very motivated-
Tori Dunlap:
… for the rest of my fucking life. Let’s go. Okay. One more question.
Erin McGoff:
All right.
Tori Dunlap:
Then we’re going to do some role play and not in a kinky way. Okay. All about side hustles right now. It sounds like you and I both… That was the start of Her First $100K for me was job side hustle. You were working in film and doing this on the side. What do we think about this shift towards the gig economy, especially for Gen Z, and how do we do it in a way that doesn’t burn us out? Also, can we stop glamorizing a side hustle that for most people is actually a second job? That was four questions.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Gen Z, for how much they hate hustle culture, they are side hustling. They have side hustles. Every Gen Z I know is doing something on the side. I think it’s largely in part because content creation and the internet makes it so accessible to just try and do an Etsy shop or try to flip furniture in Facebook marketplace or try to do TikTok. I’m all for it. I think side hustles are incredible. I don’t think you should quit your day job, but I think you should do it on the side. Then when it reaches a tipping point, then you can jump ship [inaudible 00:59:44]-
Tori Dunlap:
I could not agree more.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. What are your takes on side hustles? What do you think?
Tori Dunlap:
Look at you popping it back to me. Yeah. I have the same thing. Again, back to my point about I don’t want you to resent the thing. If you were asking your side hustle to support your lifestyle before it’s ready to do that, that will no longer be fun. I agree. I think you have to get to a point where it’s like, “I’m basically forced to quit my job.”
Erin McGoff:
I have this actually theory about the job market in general that I’m formulating still. But I think with the rise of AI and just where the job market and jobs are going in general, I think we’re going to see a lot more business owners. This year alone, I think 1099s are tipping W2s.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Erin McGoff:
I know.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Erin McGoff:
Which is insane to think about.
Tori Dunlap:
But I think that is the shift is people, especially women… We talk about my whole thing is how do we get financial freedom for women? I would not be sitting here as a multimillionaire who is financially set for life without a business. It just would not happen.
Erin McGoff:
It’s the easiest way to… It’s a get rich quick scheme is to start your own business.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Or it would happen when I was 50, 55. Again, there’s tons of businesses that don’t have success in the same way. But if I’m really talking to you, dear listener, and you’re not loving your job and you’re not loving corporate. You’re like, “I don’t have the flexibility I want.” Yeah. You might have to work a little harder temporarily to find something that you love and do that on the side, but I was willing to do that because I saw what it could be.
Erin McGoff:
Absolutely. Yep. I come from a very entrepreneurial family. My dad founded a few companies, and he didn’t come from that. My dad grew up the fourth-generation funeral home director in Scranton, Pennsylvania.
Tori Dunlap:
Wow.
Erin McGoff:
He was very much self-taught and self-made. But he would tell all of us, my five older siblings and me, like, “Go out and start your own thing. This is America. Go out and start your own business. It’s the way that you’re going to gain wealth.” It’s true. If you go up to anybody on the street outside of finance and law, they’re business owners. They’re people who started a window washing company, and now they’re a multimillionaire.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. It doesn’t have to be sexy.
Erin McGoff:
In fact, it shouldn’t be. The unsexier the job, the more money you’re probably going to make from it. Everybody wants glamorous and sexy jobs, but if you can find out how to make metal cups… The guy who invented this metal cup is on a yacht somewhere. I guarantee you.
Tori Dunlap:
True.
Erin McGoff:
My brother invented an insulation, like a packaging insulation. If you get HelloFresh or whatever that is and you get a sustainable insulation inside of it that’s recyclable.
Tori Dunlap:
Your brother invented that.
Erin McGoff:
My brother invented that because he was frustrated by the inefficiency of styrofoam. He engineered, he patented a new thing. It’s so unglamorous. He’s good.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Set.
Erin McGoff:
He’s good to go.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Figure out what it is.
Erin McGoff:
Side hustles.
Tori Dunlap:
I love it. We’re wrapping up this conversation with Erin when we come back with some of your biggest questions about job hunting in a lightning round. Stay tuned. Role play. You ready?
Erin McGoff:
Let’s do it.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. If you can give me what you would do, and then I’ll do some interview questions. My first question for you, you see an ad for a job posted on LinkedIn. Do you send them a message? If so, how do you craft it and what do you say?
Erin McGoff:
Do you send them a message? Absolutely, you do. Guys-
Tori Dunlap:
Who do you talk to, by the way?
Erin McGoff:
Okay. On LinkedIn, sometimes it’ll actually have the recruiter linked with the job. If that’s the case, go ahead and message them. That’s a good green flag saying, “Hey, you can message me.” Y’all, if see any recruiters who are like, “I’m so sick of people messaging me.” They’re just bad recruiters. Recruiters love when-
Tori Dunlap:
I agree.
Erin McGoff:
… people message them.
Tori Dunlap:
I agree.
Erin McGoff:
Their job is to get qualified candidates in seats, so anyway.
Tori Dunlap:
Or they’re getting so many messages that are bad, and so they’re sick and tired of that.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. But if you’re qualified, absolutely message them. If you’re not, don’t. But anyway, you should absolutely message them, at least them. Then also people put too much focus on the recruiter. Department heads actually make the decision. They’re the people who actually are like, “This is the person I need in my team.” Recruiters just curate. Message them and also find the department head and any alumni you know who work at that company because they might be able to get a referral bonus. Anyway, you’re going to message that recruiter, and all you’re going to say is, “Hi, my name is Erin. I’m a video editor based in New York City with seven plus services experience, and I specialize in commercial editing.” Let’s say it’s for a commercial editing job. “I just wanted to put a face to an application. Thank you so much for your consideration. I look forward to hearing back from you.”
Tori Dunlap:
Boom.
Erin McGoff:
That’s it.
Tori Dunlap:
It was personal to the job, but you can copy and paste that.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. I would just-
Tori Dunlap:
Change the… Yeah. Change [inaudible 01:04:29]-
Erin McGoff:
Obviously I’m giving you a specific example, but if you’re applying… In that scenario, I’d be applying for a commercial video editing job, and I used all of those keywords in the message.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. Beautiful. Okay.
Erin McGoff:
Boom.
Tori Dunlap:
You get into an interview. You have a gap on your resume. How do you respond to the, “What is this gap doing on your resume?”
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. It’s a good question. One thing is that if you get to the interview and you have a gap on your resume, it wasn’t a deal breaker. That’s the first thing that you need to know is that if you get to the interview and you have that gap and they’re asking about it, they’re just curious. It wasn’t a deal breaker because if it was they wouldn’t be interviewing you.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Again, as somebody who hires somebody, I agree. Honestly I’m asking because I’m curious more of like, “Did you do something fun?”
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Were you freelancing? Were you taking your side hustle full time? Were you traveling Europe?
Tori Dunlap:
Because it shows that you’re willing to maybe take risks or to do something or even just like, “You know what? I needed a fucking break.” Great. Okay.
Erin McGoff:
Awesome.
Tori Dunlap:
We all get that.
Erin McGoff:
Just have a good explanation. I think the key to this is saying, “I intentionally made a lifestyle decision. I intentionally made a lifestyle decision to go to Europe for three months. I climbed this mountain. I did this thing, and it was amazing. Now I’m back, and I couldn’t be more ready to dive back in.” If you’re scared, they’ll be scared. You just need to be like, “I did this thing. It was awesome.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right. Own it.
Erin McGoff:
“I intentionally made a lifestyle decision to stay home with my young children. It was amazing. During that time, I kept up with all the industry news. I gained this skill and now I’m back. Ready to dive in.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. Love that. You quit a job with a toxic boss. How do you gently answer the, “Tell me why you’re leaving your current job,” question? I have a response for this too. I’ll see if ours are similar because I’ve had to answer it.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. It’s tough because you really want to talk shit. You really do. The thing is is that it unfortunately doesn’t reflect positively on you to talk shit to a stranger about someone that they also don’t know. Or worst-case scenario, they might know. Or I guess best-case scenario, because anyway. I always just recommend being positive in interviews. I think it’s safer to be positive, and to just say, “It wasn’t a good fit. There was a change in the management style at that company that no longer fit my goals, and so I’m looking to move on to something better. That’s why I’m so excited to be here interviewing at Spotify,” or whatever it is.
Tori Dunlap:
We have very similar answers.
Erin McGoff:
Really?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Okay. What’s yours?
Tori Dunlap:
Mine is… It’s a different excuse basically, which is like, “I really didn’t see a future in terms of my own career development at the company, which is my boss cut me at the knees and was awful. Yeah. I really didn’t see a future in terms of me progressing, and that is something that I’m really passionate about. I can see from this job description and from my research I’ve done at Spotify that you support the company in this way or the employees in this way. You’ve done this and that. You support them with a sabbatical. I’m really excited to see that growth, and so that’s why I’m here talking to you.”
Erin McGoff:
Love it.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s very similar. It’s like-
Erin McGoff:
We both kept it really positive.
Tori Dunlap:
Right. It’s also… It’s a perfect example of I’ve done my research, I care about this organization. It’s also like a fuck you to them of like, “Don’t you dare do what you did,” or, “That happened to me prior, don’t you dare do that again. You say that you support employees in this way, so I’m really excited to watch you back it up.”
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Super excited. You say this on your website, let’s see if it’s actually the case.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. No. It’s the same thing. It’s also the, “And now I’m so excited. I’m so excited. It sounds like you guys are so committed to career development,” and even that’s a perfect opportunity to then go, “I saw this on the website and this, can you tell me other ways that you are focused on employee career development?
Erin McGoff:
“I saw you’re family-first company. Is that in the good way or the bad way? Let’s figure it out.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. But then it’s a conversation too, which I think is so great.
Erin McGoff:
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap:
Let’s do the impossible questions. What is your greatest weakness?
Erin McGoff:
All right. 10/90 rule, y’all. 10% of the answer naming the weakness. Something realistic but not a deal breaker for the role. 90% of the time, talking about how you’re working on it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep.
Erin McGoff:
I got a lot of weaknesses, Tori. I’m working on all them [inaudible 01:08:30] a lot.
Tori Dunlap:
You haven’t really in this interview.
Erin McGoff:
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Tori Dunlap:
Also, I’ve done more research about it because I used to be very… I drilled it out of myself. I have different vocal cues that I will not say on the podcast because as soon as I say them, that’s all you’ll hear. But I do think it’s actually very gendered because I think we get shit.
Erin McGoff:
I have a lot to say just actually as far as genders go. I’m actually… I’m working on a project right now. I’m doing some writing. Part of the writing is I’m talking about how… I’m calling them language softeners. Anyway, you know, like, um, you know what I mean?
Tori Dunlap:
I think.
Erin McGoff:
All language softeners. Women use them to come off less intimidating. Actually, if I was doing this podcast, I’d be happy to talk like this. I intentionally speak with likes and ums because if I don’t, people get weird with me.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. You want to be accessible. You want to be approachable. You want to be liked as a woman.
Erin McGoff:
My content is relatable. My content is friendly. If I talk [inaudible 01:09:28]-
Tori Dunlap:
That’s one of the reasons I curse on the show.
Erin McGoff:
You have your code, and I have my code. They’re part of our brands. When you’re at work, you’re going to have a brand too. There’s nothing wrong with using language softeners because otherwise I sound like I’m preaching. I sound like I’m giving a TED Talk.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Erin McGoff:
But I’m not, I’m having a conversation with Tori. Language softeners I’m actually a really big fan of, as long as you’re using them with intention. You can’t-
Tori Dunlap:
As opposed to mindless?
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. Or women get cut off a lot. That’s why we say um, because we want people to know that we’re still talking. It’s extremely gendered. I also see it affect men who are softer spoken to. I don’t think it’s just women, but majority of the time I’d say it’s women. I would say something I’m currently working on improving are my delegation skills.
Tori Dunlap:
Guys, just the wording of that.
Erin McGoff:
Something I’m currently actively working on, improving about myself are my delegation skills. I tend to think it’ll just be easier for me to do everything, but I know that in order to advance into more senior roles in my career, I need to master delegation. Currently, I am reading a leadership book that’s teaching me tangible delegation skills, and I’m working to delegate one thing a week.
Tori Dunlap:
Mamma Mia. That was great. That was perfect. Yeah. It’s always about what I’ve learned, what I’m doing. Yep
Erin McGoff:
Yep. How you’re working on yourself.
Tori Dunlap:
Do not say, “I work too hard and care too much.” I’m speaking to Michael Scott. Do not say that.
Erin McGoff:
But also don’t say delegation if you’re applying for a manager role.
Tori Dunlap:
Don’t say what? Delegation?
Erin McGoff:
Don’t say delegation if you are applying for a manager job.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Because that’s a huge red flag.
Erin McGoff:
Read the room. I would say that for a technical job or a specialized job. If you are applying to be a firefighter, don’t say you don’t work well under pressure. If you are applying to be a copywriter, don’t say that grammar is your… And typos-
Tori Dunlap:
If it truly is a weakness, that might tell you that maybe this is not a good career path for you.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. If communication and you’re a consultant, maybe you got to do something else.
Tori Dunlap:
I hate writing. I’m about to be a copywriter. Not great for you. Okay. What is your salary expectation, Erin?
Erin McGoff:
I want to hear your answer, Tori.
Tori Dunlap:
I think we have the same answer.
Erin McGoff:
I always say I’m flexible depending on other elements of the compensation package. I’d love to get aligned. But of course, it depends. If they list it in the job description, which I think 22 states now legally have to.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, they do.
Erin McGoff:
A little different.
Tori Dunlap:
A little different, but I always like to keep it open. If you have to give a range, have the bottom end of that range be the number you want, and to say that you can be flexible depending on other elements of the compensation package because that’s true. If they’re giving massive bonuses or a huge 401(k) match or it’s a flexible job, there’s a monetary value attached to that.
Yeah. Again, what you just said, which I want to call out, what you want or what you’ve realized your research says you should want should be where the floor is. Not the highest, not even your… That should not be where you’re at.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. That reminds me going back to side hustles, something I told somebody yesterday and it blew their mind was your salary isn’t the ceiling, it’s the floor. Everybody thinks I get paid $75,000 a year, so I am $75,000 a year. It’s like, “Uh-uh.”
Tori Dunlap:
You have taxes.
Erin McGoff:
Well, you have taxes. But I’m saying you can go out and get a side hustle. You could make $85,000 this year if you picked up $10,000 worth of dog walking or whatever. But again, that abundance mindset of don’t identify yourself by your salary. You can always go out and make more money.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Okay. My last one for you. This is the one drives me bonkers. Where do you see yourself in five years? I do not ask this. I hate this question.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. I just think it’s lazy.
Tori Dunlap:
I agree.
Erin McGoff:
I think they should ask what are some goals that you have? What are some things you’re interested in doing in your overall career? Be much less lazy. I say that as somebody who has a free five-year plan template. I’m a big fan of making five-year plans, to be honest.
Tori Dunlap:
Really?
Erin McGoff:
As an act of self-love, and not necessarily something to stick to. I think thinking about future you as a way of self-care.
Tori Dunlap:
No. I completely agree with that. Just for me, as someone who is very type A, if I would’ve aligned… Again, I thought VP of marketing, my 30, girlboss my way up the ladder. If that five-year plan paid off, I’d be miserable and I wouldn’t like my life very much. But if I kept the blinders on, that’s what I would’ve gotten. I don’t like the five-year question because it’s more like it cuts you off from any possibility.
Erin McGoff:
I got a great answer for you then.
Tori Dunlap:
Great. Okay.
Erin McGoff:
Well, the way I approach the five-year plan question is, first of all, I like to make a little joke like, “Haha, don’t even know what I’m [inaudible 01:14:11] for lunch tomorrow. Haha.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Then you come in with the fucking best answer they’ve ever heard.
Erin McGoff:
You just murder them. You soften them and then… But I like to say, like, “While I like to keep things flexible and I like to be adaptable, as we’ve seen, the world can be very unpredictable with COVID and AI, there’s always new things happening. You have to be adaptable. I do have specific goals.” After you say that you have specific goals, name something big. I want to be in a position of leadership where I’m leading a creative team to create projects that really align with me and make me feel very fulfilled. Don’t get too specific. The more specific you get, the more trouble you can get into because they’ll have more things to attach to that they don’t like. Just keep it vague. “I want to be in a position where I feel like I’m contributing to…” Then describe what this role is. Music to their ears.
Tori Dunlap:
I think one of the things, too, that I both tend to answer when I get… Because I get that question in regular interviews, and I fucking hate it. Stop asking me that question. But it’s also I think that I look for when I’m hiring, and again, I don’t ask this question in specifics, but is something like, “Here are what my career goals are, and then also here’s what I’m excited about that’s outside of work.” Again-
Erin McGoff:
Love it.
Tori Dunlap:
… you don’t have to be super specific because, again, as soon as you bring up children, some employers get weird. But you can just say, like, “I hope that I am living a life and surrounded by people who support me. I hope I’m happy and fulfilled. I hope that I’ve traveled to this place.” But again, it shows me that, one, you have a life outside work, which is what I… I do want that for you. I want that as your employer. I want that as a person. But two, it shows that you have other things, you have hobbies, you have passions, and that you are a well-rounded person.
Erin McGoff:
It’s always important in an interview to understand the question behind the question. They’re not actually asking, “What’s your five-year plan?” They don’t actually care about your five-year plan. All they care about is are they going to stick around. If they are going to stick around, are they going to thrive here?
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Yes.
Erin McGoff:
Because you don’t want to hire somebody whose plan in five years is different than what you would want somebody in that role. If they say they want to go work for your competitor. Okay. Yeah. Maybe don’t hire them. Or if they say they want to be in a different industry, these are all red flags. You need to understand what they’re really asking is what is this person planning on doing in their career and does that align with what we need in this role?
Tori Dunlap:
Totally. Okay. My last question for you. If you can give people a few things that they could do today to be a better candidate in the job market, what would they be?
Erin McGoff:
That’s a great question. Man, in 2025, skills.
Tori Dunlap:
Tell me more?
Erin McGoff:
Skills and the most important thing. Companies… There’s data to back this up and anecdotal evidence. Companies are caring less and less about degrees and experience. They’re really caring about skills, especially in the age of AI. Also, put AI on your resume and gain AI skills. I know that might be not an opinion that everybody has, but I think the age of AI that we’re in is the early age of the computer. I think it’s just here, and people who learn to embrace it and to use it to be more productive are… They’re going to get ahead. That’s not my fault, guys. I didn’t create that.
That’s just what I see. I don’t think it’s something to fear. I think it’s something to get really excited about because it can make your job a lot less boring and monotonous. I would say, yeah, number one, skills. Hard skills and soft skills. Really increase the amount of softwares you know how to use, the amount of processes you know and your communication skills. They want to hear that you know how to do things. That’s all they want to hear. The second thing is just have AI on your radar. I don’t care what it is. If there’s a podcast in your industry or you can read a blog or something about AI. Just poke around a little bit and just keep your eyes on it because if you don’t, people who are are going to get the good jobs.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
I know that’s not the advice everybody wants to hear, but I’m excited.
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 01:18:15] it’s just being aware of what the trends are. Also, I love the quote, and I’m sorry because I can’t remember who said it but, “I want AI to do the laundry and the chores for me so that I can create the art. I don’t want AI creating the art for me.”
Erin McGoff:
It will.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
It will. Everybody’s freaking out right now because when AI first came out-
Tori Dunlap:
Scary robot.
Erin McGoff:
… everybody was playing around with it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Erin McGoff:
But that happened when the computer came out too. People were doing dumb shit with computers too when they first came out. I’m optimistic. I think AI is going to cure cancer and do our taxes. I think it can make the world a good place, but the good people got to be using it.
Tori Dunlap:
Yep. It’s just like anything. It’s money. Money is a tool.
Erin McGoff:
Well, it’s a technology.
Tori Dunlap:
In the wrong hands, it’s terrible.
Erin McGoff:
Yeah. It’s a technology. Any technology can be used for good or evil. It’s a very powerful one, so got to make sure it’s in good hands.
Tori Dunlap:
Erin, thank you for your time. Thank you for your expertise. Thank you for your online friendship and now real life friendship. Tell people where they can find you. Plug away my friend.
Erin McGoff:
Absolutely. You can find me sleuthing around at my local cafe. Just kidding. You can follow me on Instagram at AdviceWithErin, and TikTok and YouTube are the same. I have a newsletter I send out every week called Hyper Helpful.
Tori Dunlap:
Cool.
Erin McGoff:
People really love it, so you can go to hyperhelpful.com, and I have a career advice quiz if you’re confused in your career and you don’t know what to do next. It pairs you with what jobs might be a good fit for your personality and lifestyle preferences. That’s advicewitherin.com/quiz.
Tori Dunlap:
Amazing. Thank you.
Erin McGoff:
Thank you so much for having me. I’ve been admiring you since 2020. I’ve been following you since 2020.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s how I feel about you.
Erin McGoff:
Really?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Very much.
Erin McGoff:
Oh, man. I look up to you in so many ways. Thank you so much for having me, Tori.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s right back at you. Truly. I would say that on or off mic. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much to Erin for joining us. It was really great to have this conversation, but she’s also just a gem. It was nice to be in person with her. She’s one of those people I’m really excited to see again next time I’m in New York. You can follow her at AdviceWithErin on social media, and you can go to hyperhelpful.com for her weekly newsletter. You can also listen to her own YouTube show and podcast called No One Knows What They’re Doing wherever you get your podcasts, wherever you’re listening right now. Thank you as always, Financial Feminists. We really appreciate you supporting the show. One of the best ways to support feminist media right now is continuing to listen, to make sure you’re subscribed, but also sharing this episode on social media or with people you know would love it. We really appreciate it. We’ll see you back here very soon. Bye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Researched by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video Engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Taylor Chou, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Kurronen, Daryl Ann Ingram and Meghan Walker. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton. Photography by Sarah Wolfe. And theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound.
A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirsthundredk.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
