Totally. Right.

Tori (00:38:00):

Or they’re right but you don’t test well with … or whatever?

Danielle (00:38:02):

Yep.

Tori (00:38:03):

Interesting. I didn’t even think about that, but that’s so obvious.

Danielle (00:38:05):

Yeah. We were chatting during this whole process and he told me what he was getting and I told him what I was getting, and so I went into negotiations knowing that what they offered me was so much less. Then when we tried to push for more, it was like take it or leave it. I had a long conversation not just with myself, but with other people because I thought, okay … I think I was making $105,000, and he told me he was making $170,000.

Tori (00:38:48):

Oh, so it’s not …

Danielle (00:38:49):

It was a third, if not more.

Tori (00:38:51):

105 to 170, so it wasn’t like $5.000 or $10,000, it was …

Danielle (00:38:56):

No, it was significant.

Tori (00:38:57):

Oh my God.

Danielle (00:38:59):

I think it’s important to be pragmatic about these things too, I don’t think it’s fair to not assess other variables. For instance, does he have more followers? No. Does he have more years of experience? No. What are you bringing to the table? Because those do matter.

Tori (00:39:18):

Does he have a master’s degree and I don’t?

Danielle (00:39:19):

Exactly. That matters, I don’t think it’s fair when people don’t take those things into account regardless of gender. It ruins our argument as women, to be honest.

Tori (00:39:30):

It does.

Danielle (00:39:31):

The only thing he did have was he was a few years older than me, but he had started later in broadcast because he was an athlete at one point and so we did have commensurate experience in years. I went into it knowing that, but I also said to myself, “Is that $65,000 going to change my life?” It would help a whole hell of a lot. It was difficult in Chicago to pay my rent and do all the things I needed to do, as crazy as that sounds, but it really was, and be comfortable. So yes, it would’ve enhanced my life. Was it going to change my life? No, and I wanted the experience. I wanted to get better.

Tori (00:40:10):

Which it’s not your fault, but that fucking sucks.

Danielle (00:40:14):

It sucks.

Tori (00:40:15):

Because it’s also, I don’t want to go on a whole rant about it, but it’s also not just you losing out on 70K now.

Danielle (00:40:21):

Oh no.

Tori (00:40:22):

It’s the opportunity to make-

Danielle (00:40:23):

Compound interest.

Tori (00:40:25):

Compound interest, all of that.

Danielle (00:40:26):

All of it. Yeah, it sucks.

Tori (00:40:27):

Oh man, I’m sorry.

Danielle (00:40:28):

Thank you. There’s no silver lining, it sucked. Found that out and then when Catt Sadler quit, I reported on that live and I remember my eyes welling up. I watched the clip back and if you know me well, you can see it, if you don’t, you can’t really tell. Because I was sitting thinking to myself, “I’m the Catt, I feel like such a fraud right now reporting on this.”

Danielle (00:40:52):

Eventually my contract was up and my boss at the time, I think, offered me like a 3% or 5% raise. I didn’t even go into it because I realized that they were never going to see my value, and so they were using me and I needed to use them for what I needed. I had done that, so my time was up and I left. Honestly, the show eventually got canceled. I don’t know what would’ve happened had I stayed, but we had nice chemistry. I don’t know, I think it was there loss, honestly. I was a really good employee, I wrote, produced, I worked really hard.

Tori (00:41:33):

100%. I’m sorry that happened, unfortunately, I think that’s all too common.

Danielle (00:41:39):

It’s the story of so many women and it’s getting better because we’re talking about it and getting better because we’re helping each other, but it’s still not quite there.

Tori (00:41:47):

Well, that’s why my big thing is we need to just talk about money more. This whole talking about money narrative it’s ridiculous, it’s perpetuated by the patriarchy to keep us quiet.

Danielle (00:42:00):

Don’t you think it’s interesting that we talk about sex way more comfortably?

Tori (00:42:04):

We literally have that on one of our episodes. We’ll talk about sex, we’ll talk about politics, religion, death, any other uncomfortable topic before we’ll talk about money.

Danielle (00:42:12):

Yep. It’s so interesting it’s so taboo.

Tori (00:42:14):

We’ll literally … I was about to say be penetrated by somebody, but literally we’ll be naked with somebody a million times before we’ll have a conversation with them about money.

Danielle (00:42:24):

Oh yeah.

Tori (00:42:27):

Crazy.

Danielle (00:42:27):

Yeah, it’s the number one thing couples fight about too.

Tori (00:42:30):

Number one reason for divorce as well.

Danielle (00:42:31):

Yep.

Tori (00:42:32):

Yeah, money. I still, Gambino, I can’t get over that. I’m trying to keep it together.

Danielle (00:42:39):

You got it, girl.

Tori (00:42:44):

Again, briefly discussed this in terms of what you said, invisible time. What burdens do you think women experience that men just don’t in the way we have to present ourselves in the workplace?

Danielle (00:42:57):

How much time do we have? My podcast is called Pretty Smart and it’s literally stems from this. I read a book called Beauty Sick and Dr. Renee Engeln is the author, she’s a professor of psychology at Northwestern. The book opens and says 54% of women would rather be hit by a truck than considered fat. When I read that-

Tori (00:43:19):

One more time.

Danielle (00:43:20):

54% of women would rather be hit by a truck than considered fat.

Tori (00:43:25):

Considered fat by whom, do we know? Society, men, I’m assuming, themselves?

Danielle (00:43:31):

Yeah, considered.

Tori (00:43:33):

Wow.

Danielle (00:43:34):

Great follow up though. When I read that, my heart sunk because in high school I would’ve for sure said hit by a car. Or I would’ve been like, how fast is the car going, or is it a truck or a Prius?

Tori (00:43:46):

Have you watched Fleabag? Have you ever seen Fleabag?

Danielle (00:43:48):

Yeah, I love Phoebe Waller-Bridge.

Tori (00:43:49):

They’re like, what is it worth? She’s like I’ll gladly take a year off your life to be, what is it, 10 pounds? Both of them were like, yes, then they realize no one else is raising their hands.

Danielle (00:43:57):

Yeah, it’s that?

Tori (00:43:59):

It’s also extremely fat phobic, which I think is very [inaudible 00:44:02] to highlight.

Danielle (00:44:03):

Horrible. But also I think in the time that we were growing up, I didn’t even know any of those words. Fat phobic wasn’t even a word when I was in high school. Paris Hilton was the thing, and now we know that all the people that we were looking at in magazines for the most part have come out and said they have eating disorders, issues with drugs. All those things were not attainable.

Tori (00:44:24):

Also money with which to invest in chefs, and trainers, and drivers, and all of these things to make them make … make up artists, Botox, all of these things.

Danielle (00:44:34):

Yeah. But the book, Beauty Sick, if anybody’s more interested in this topic is life changing. But yes, the podcast is based on that because I’ve also experienced it in my career. It’s definitely amplified the amount of hours, and time, and money and just focus that I have to spend on clothing and having the perfect shoes. I realized that I didn’t like packing for trips, I wo
uld get anxiety for trips when most men would be excited to go on vacation. Most women can’t pack, they freak out. Almost all of my friends, my mom, I had this at one point, I’ve since fixed it, because you have to have the perfect outfit. You have to have the right outfit for the beach, and then the right outfit for dinner, and the right outfit for this. It’s with Instagram, that’s amplified.

Tori (00:45:22):

Well, and you can’t because, God forbid, you repeat an outfit.

Danielle (00:45:25):

Right.

Tori (00:45:26):

Which is such bullshit for so many reasons.

Danielle (00:45:29):

But if you let go of that, your life is so much better.

Tori (00:45:33):

Totally, but also society refuses to allow us to let that go.

Danielle (00:45:37):

Right, it’s our currency.

Tori (00:45:38):

Right. Because if I show up at work, if I were to show up at this interview non made up, I would get comments that would say, “She looks tired. She looks unprofessional.” It’s the double standard of the very thing that we get shamed for as women, which is you spend too much time on your hair, you spend too much time on your makeup, is the then thing-

Danielle (00:45:59):

It’s so interesting.

Tori (00:46:00):

… the thing that then is a double standard.

Danielle (00:46:03):

I saw a video online the other day, an outlet I used to work for did so I follow them still even though I normally wouldn’t follow them. They did a three minute video on if Kendall Jenner had gotten lip filler or not because people online recently thought she did. I was about 30 seconds into the video thinking to myself, I’ve never seen a video similar to this about a man questioning if he had surgery or not. The idea of whether she did or not, who the F cares? Also, the fact that we’re talking about it is making whoever’s watching this think, do I need lip filler?

Tori (00:46:42):

I literally talked about this with Victoria last week so it’s so funny. We were picking on the Kardashians a little bit, because they’re an easy target, unfortunately. But I do think one of the issues, though, with celebrity, with fame, with being professionally hot, is that people who are professionally hot very rarely actually discuss what went into them becoming professionally hot.

Danielle (00:47:03):

But there’s so much misogynism built into that.

Tori (00:47:06):

Totally, I completely agree. However, if I’m a young girl, if I’m me looking at Kendall Jenner going like, “Oh my God, she’s so beautiful,” and I’m thinking that’s attainable. I agree with you 100% on your three points you just made, I also think there is a potential where I’m watching that video and going, “Oh, so it isn’t obtainable,” and that comforts me in a weird way.

Danielle (00:47:26):

Yeah, totally. I agree there should be transparency, but we don’t have the same obsession with men’s appearance. We have obsession with their money, which is also not fair. That’s a lot of pressure for them, it’s not fair. I think if we’re stripping away gender issues for women, we should strip them for men too.

Tori (00:47:45):

Yeah, masculinity and undefining masculinity affects men as much as it affects women.

Danielle (00:47:51):

When you look at money magazines, I actually did this in Chicago. I held up all the most famous magazines of men on t
he cover and women, the women were almost all in bikinis or really skimpy clothes.

Tori (00:48:03):

Sometimes even naked.

Danielle (00:48:04):

Yeah. The men were all in suits looking really dapper with a briefcase like it was about power versus sex.

Tori (00:48:10):

They’re crossing their arms or it’s … Yeah, totally.

Danielle (00:48:14):

I think it like shows our value system so blatantly.

Tori (00:48:21):

We’re okay with men having money and we applaud men who have money, but when women have the audacity to say, yes, I would like to be rich, I would like money, we shame her.

Danielle (00:48:32):

Do we?

Tori (00:48:33):

Yeah. Oh God, yeah.

Danielle (00:48:34):

I feel like we don’t. Like Bethany money, Sarah Blakely, or Hugo.

Tori (00:48:40):

Well I believe Bethany, is Bethany a white woman? Both of them are white women, so that’s one thing.

Danielle (00:48:45):

Pat McGrath.

Tori (00:48:46):

Sure. I think what happens, though, is either women who have money become caricatures, real housewives, they become caricatures of women who have money where they’re catty, and they’re yelling at each other, and they’re having frivolous Beverly Hills lunches where they scream. Or what happens, which is what I’ve experienced, is this double standard of altruism.

Danielle (00:49:14):

The idea you can’t negotiate for yourself but you can negotiate for your team.

Tori (00:49:18):

Yes. Or, I can’t want money just because it makes my life better, I have to want money for a higher purpose. Now, I want to be clear, donating, 100%. That’s what financial feminism is to me, is it’s get your own shit together so that you can help others. Get your own financial foundation and bring everybody else along for the ride, I 100% believe that. I think donating, especially if you’ve built some sort of wealth is extremely important and something that I 100% do. That being said, we do not have that same expectation for men. My TikTok comments, every time I talk about money or me building wealth is immediately like, “Yeah, but what are you donating?” Immediately, and I’m not seeing this for men.

Danielle (00:49:58):

I agree with that point.

Tori (00:50:02):

We weaponize women’s altruism, which is a beautiful trait that I think a lot of … we’re conditioned to have as women, but then we weaponize it. So we’re like, okay, we’re only okay with you having money as long as you do something good with it. Or, we’re only okay with you being a CEO as long as your company does something.

Danielle (00:50:19):

That’s fascinating.

Tori (00:50:21):

Do you think that the media women consume is belittled?

Danielle (00:50:27):

What an interesting question?

Tori (00:50:28):

Or stigmatized?

Danielle (00:50:30):

What media are women consuming?

Tori (00:50:33):

When I wrote this question, when we wrote this question, it was more I think … You’ve talked about how pop culture is a currency, or having the knowledge of that. But yet I feel like that is not as impressive or that is … you’re almost demeaned if you have. If you can answer all of the jeopardy questions about The Bachelor, but you can’t answer all the questions about the capitals of the world.

Danielle (00:51:00):

That’s funny. I don’t know if I would put those on the same playing field. I know what you’re saying, but if we’re being stereotypical about what men and women are watching, which I think we have to be for a minute. It’s like video games versus pop culture.

Tori (00:51:17):

Or sports versus-

Danielle (00:51:18):

Sports is a great one. Sports versus The Bachelor is a great example.

Tori (00:51:23):

Again, we’re being very stereotypical, we are playing into very stereotypical gender roles for this thought experiment.

Danielle (00:51:29):

Totally, yeah. I love that you’re into sociopolitical stuff, this is fun for me to do with you. I do think it’s belittled in that sense, like sports is thought of as having more gravitas. It’s okay to be really into sports, it’s okay to bet on sports.

Tori (00:51:48):

It’s okay to cry when your football team loses.

Danielle (00:51:50):

Totally.

Tori (00:51:50):

It’s the only “acceptable”, I’m putting acceptable in quotes, time for men to cry is when your team loses and when your dad dies. it

Danielle (00:51:58):

Oh my God.

Tori (00:51:59):

It’s the two times.

Danielle (00:51:59):

Yeah, just watch the movie Rudy and you’re good.

Tori (00:52:04):

Tin Cup, my dad every time will cry, every time.

Danielle (00:52:07):

I agree. But at the same time, if I’m being fully honest, I think The Bachelor’s so stupid and I don’t think sports are stupid. From a personal perspective-

Tori (00:52:17):

I think Bachelor’s stupid as well. But my best friend who’s my favorite person in the entire world loves The Bachelor.

Danielle (00:52:20):

Yeah, so do a lot of my friends and we fight about it. Because I’m like, you’re playing into all of this stuff that’s so bad for women in our society. They’re like, “I work 50 hours a week, I’m tired.” I’m like, “Okay, fine. You’re right. Enjoy.”

Tori (00:52:37):

I
forgot I used to do this until just now, I worked at a hardware store, it was my summer job in college. If I didn’t have a customer I’d be sitting reading the news because that was the only thing you could do. You could be on social media, but I’m like, okay, I can read the news. I’d go to Google News and I’d read the headlines and then I would scroll until I got to pop culture. I didn’t read politics, I didn’t read anything. I was 19 and I was like, I just want to know what movies are being made, who’s talking to who, who’s dating who? I feel like that is largely read by women, one. And two-

Danielle (00:53:13):

I don’t know, The Shade Room now, I think they have a very male audience.

Tori (00:53:17):

Do you think so?

Danielle (00:53:18):

Yeah.

Tori (00:53:18):

Okay. I might be wrong, maybe it’s changing. Do you feel like it is, do you feel like it’s transitioning? Because I feel like your knowledge of these things, if I bring out a cocktail party has more stereotype … I guess, thoughtful people who are more academic, my knowledge of, I’m trying to think, again, Community. Or my knowledge of, I don’t know, who won the Best Picture Oscar for the last 20 years is less quote unquote “impressive” than the more academic perspective.

Danielle (00:53:50):

You’re right. I used to have a big insecurity about that when I did entertainment news because I was-

Tori (00:53:54):

That’s what I mean. Maybe it’s not a legit a journalist if you’re not doing the hardcore like you’re reporting on wars and you’re … I don’t know.

Danielle (00:54:04):

But I then did pieces on gun violence for Planned Parenthood and I realized it was harder to put those pieces together, I did have to do more research and learn more. There is a difference and that’s okay, it’s okay to be into frivolous stuff. If we’re calling sports and entertainment frivolous.

Tori (00:54:27):

Well, we’re putting frivolous in quotes.

Danielle (00:54:29):

But yes, I actually just had a job interview for a serious network and the guy called me a red carpet girl.

Tori (00:54:35):

Which girl, first of all you’re not a girl, you’re a goddamn woman. Jesus Christ, I hate it when they do that.

Danielle (00:54:41):

For sure. That felt demeaning.

Tori (00:54:44):

Belittling, condescending.

Danielle (00:54:44):

Yeah, because red carpets are what, I don’t know. Would you say that if I was on the sidelines at a football stadium, which I have been? Right. I don’t know. There’s definitely a pieces of that, for sure.

Tori (00:54:58):

Or even beyond football, but are you saying that if I’m in war torn Syria-

Danielle (00:55:04):

Then he’s definitely not saying that, but also that’s harder.

Tori (00:55:07):

No, sure. 100% sure. Talking to Leonardo DiCaprio is slightly easier than fearing for your safety every moment.

Danielle (00:55:14):

Totally.

Tori (00:55:16):

No, that’s valid. That’s valid. What do you hope for the future of journalism?

Danielle (00:55:21):

Oh man, this question is really meaningful to me because I believe in our democracy, I’m a real patriot. I always have been, the card deck I made is made in America even though it costs 10 times more, it was really important to me. I believe in the power of the press, I wouldn’t be a journalist if I didn’t believe in it and I have worked alongside some incredibly talented people. Journalists don’t make a lot of money, for the most part, and they spend so much time at their job.

Danielle (00:56:01):

If we broke down how many hours we work versus what we’re … the actual pay is not very high. These people not just love what they do, but also do it as a public service in a lot of ways, specifically local journalists. The issue with journalism and fake news is money. It is the system behind news, the system behind media that makes media run. And so, my hope is that somehow we can figure out how to fix how money and media coexist. I don’t know how to do it, it is the ad revenue that is the issue.

Tori (00:56:44):

Right. Well, and so much of media is owned by people who have billions of dollars and who are actively swaying elections with those billions of dollars. And are not just of course donating to these campaigns, but are using their media outlets to continue pushing an agenda.

Danielle (00:57:10):

There’s so many great examples of this, but I think Trump having been so bombastic during his campaign in 2016, I forgot the exact … I don’t have any exact statistics clearly on this podcast. The stat was the amount of media coverage he received by being bombastic equated to hundreds of millions of dollars. He just did that, the press played into it.

Tori (00:57:37):

Because it felt like a reality show because that’s what he did for, what, 15 years was host reality shows. And so when he said something crazy, especially under the guise of this is a race for the presidency, which it was supposed to be at a level of decorum. And so, he would say crazy shit and we would all lose our goddamn minds over it.

Danielle (00:57:58):

But the press played into it.

Tori (00:57:59):

Totally.

Danielle (00:57:59):

They played into it because it got clicks because it got clicks and eyeballs. And so, how do we separate those things? I don’t know.

Tori (00:58:05):

Well, it’s the conversation about how do you separate money and politics? They’re so interwoven.

Danielle (00:58:10):

That’s also the fundamental issue with politics. Democracy’s actually amazing, it’s just how do you take overspending? How do we give regular people a chance to become politicians?

Tori (00:58:25):

Well, and how do you allow regular people and their vote and what they believe to actually have a sway as opposed to, again, these billionaires who can just go in and dump a bunch of money?

Danielle (00:58:35):

But that’s where you come in, we got to figure out the money piece.

Tori (00:58:38):

I’m trying, I’m trying slowly but surely. Thanks for being here. I appreciate it.

Danielle (00:58:42):

You’re such a great interviewer.

Tori (00:58:43):

Thank you. That’s so kind. Where can people find out more about you?

Danielle (00:58:47):

At Danielle Robay, R-O-B-A-Y on everything. The Question Everything card deck is on my Instagram and on Shopify and it’s-

Tori (00:58:56):

I’ll have to snag one. I’m excited.

Danielle (00:58:58):

I’ll send you one. It’s the best thing I’ve ever done.

Tori (00:59:01):

Yey, I love that. Cool, we’ll link it. Thank you for being here.

Danielle (00:59:04):

Thanks Tori.

Tori (00:59:07):

Thank you so much again to Danielle for sitting down with us. Make sure to check out Pretty Smart wherever you get your podcasts. I’m also on the show, we did a little show swap, so feel free to check out my episode as well as her other episodes. Follow Danielle on Instagram @daniellerobay, R-O-B-A-Y. Also check out her question card deck, it’s called Question Everything: 52 cards for deeper conversation. As always, everything is linked in the show notes. I’m going to do a nice seamless transition here and say, if you would like to be the most sophisticated, interesting, well-rounded person in the room.

Tori (00:59:42):

Well, one of the ways you can do that is continuing to learn and continuing to know more about the topics you’re going to talk about. That’s part of why we build the show notes for you all, is we don’t want you to just listen for an hour, we want you to be able to dig in deep. We give you so much more research, ways to connect again with our guests. More information about how to better your money, all of that linked @financialfeministpodcast.com or at least in the description for this episode. So please check that out. Also, Donald Glover, if you listened to this episode, no, you did not.

Tori (01:00:17):

Thank you for listening to financial feminist at Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Olivia Conning, Cherise Wade, Alina Helzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Eresco, Jack Conning, and Anna Alexandra. Research by Ariel Johnson, audio engineering by Austin Fields, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K team and Community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, for Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.