“At the end of the day, if there’s one thing you need to know about curiosity, it’s that you’re really on this quest of helping people to feel seen and to feel heard and to feel like they actually matter.”
Today’s guest, Scott Shigeoka, opens up by sharing how he came to cultivate what he calls his “superpower” — his ability to ask questions, seek out answers, and continuously learn, grow, and connect to others by doing so. He explains how his curious nature has been a gateway to landing new opportunities, starting with his humble beginnings as an employee at Ruby Tuesday to later becoming a writer and also a tool that he has used to understand himself and his family.
“When we use curiosity, we can connect to others in a really deep way. And that’s like what I love the most about it.”
But there’s also another side of that coin:
Incuriosity
Indifference
Apathy
Which Scott believes can fracture our relationships. He gives an example that most of us can probably see ourselves in or have been in before, “when our romantic partner walks through that door. And we’re on our phone, and we’re not curious about them, their day, their lives, what their joys and wonders and suffering is. You know, they can really feel devalued, and they can feel not seen, not heard, not appreciated.”
If you don’t believe that a lack of curiosity has ramifications, consider this — according to U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy, we are in a public health crisis of loneliness, isolation, and lack of connection. He has stated that “disconnection fundamentally affects our mental, physical, and societal health.”
When you think about our current society and how polarizing certain topics (even people) have become, it’s not hard to see what can happen when people don’t seek to connect or understand.
Scott explains, “we know from the research that when you dehumanize people, when you turn away from them, it’s much easier to inflict hate on them. It’s much easier to be numb to suffering and violence that is being inflicted upon them.”
He states that in order to be in solidarity with people and really care for them, we have to turn towards them and get curious.
Curiosity and money
Scott sheds light on the idea that beyond our basic needs, discussions about money transform into conversations about feelings and values. According to him, understanding these emotions and narratives is crucial for building a healthy relationship with money and, consequently, with your partner. He emphasizes the importance of normalizing financial conversations setting the stage for mutual understanding and connection. He suggests that bringing curiosity to these discussions becomes the bridge to vulnerability and a tool to improve our emotional connection with money and our partners.
So, how do you bring curiosity to these types of conversations? 5 words — “tell me more about that.”
This simple phrase serves as a gateway to understanding the underlying emotions and narratives behind people’s decisions. By embracing a curiosity and seeking to understand, people can avoid reacting with immediate biases and judgments. He emphasizes the significance of listening, urging couples to prioritize understanding each other’s perspectives and values.
Curiosity and boundaries
There’s a delicate balance when it comes to curiosity and boundaries. Scott stresses the importance of respecting personal limits and consent in curiosity-driven conversations.
“Just because you’re curious doesn’t mean that you deserve to have the answer.”
He draws parallels to a story in his book of a little girl with a prosthetic leg and her friend who was curious about why she had it, what it felt like, and the story behind it. He highlights the need to recognize when curiosity stems from an ableist place and respect others’ boundaries. Shigeoka advocates for the power of an apology and forgiveness in moments when curiosity leads to missteps. Through this, the conversation emphasizes that fostering curiosity should coexist with a deep understanding and respect for individual boundaries.
Curiosity in everyday life
Tori and Scott wrap up the conversation with practical advice for incorporating curiosity into our everyday lives. Scott recommends getting out into nature and learning how to take notice of all of the things unfolding around us. He references what a friend calls “awe walks,” to help foster curiosity about the world around us. Whether it’s appreciating the intricacies of a flower or the efforts of a neighbor tending to their front porch, these walks offer moments of awe and presence. He urges individuals to explore various forms of curiosity, including body journaling and exploring personal interests, to activate curiosity in more interpersonal or reflective spaces.
Scott and Tori chat more about unlocking the transformative power of curiosity on this week’s episode of Financial Feminist.
Our HYSA Partner Recommendation (terms apply)
Scott’s Links:
SEEK: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World
Additional Resources Mentioned:
Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation
Meet Scott
Scott Shigeoka is an internationally recognized curiosity expert, speaker, and the author of SEEK: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World.
He is known for translating research into strategies that promote positive well-being and connected relationships around the globe, including at UC Berkeley’s Greater Good Science Center and through his popular courses at the University of Texas at Austin.
Transcript:
Scott Shigeoka:
If there’s one thing you need to know about curiosity, which is the search to understand, is that you’re really on this quest of helping people to feel seen and to feel heard, and to feel like they actually matter. And that is so, so important and powerful. And on the flip side, when we’re not curious about someone, when our romantic partner walks through that door and we’re on our phone and we’re not curious about them, their day, their lives, what their joys and wonders and suffering is, they can really feel devalued and they can feel not seen, not heard, not appreciated. And it can really fracture our relationships. And it’s not just our romantic partnerships, it’s relationships with anyone.
Tori Dunlap:
There’s nothing more powerful than starting a podcast with. Hello everybody. Welcome to Financial Feminist. Okay, so here’s the deal. 1989 Taylor’s version comes out tomorrow and I go feral over the style intro, and I have not been listening to anything but that for the past couple hours. And Kristen can attest to that. I’m so sorry. So that’s what we’re listening to in this house in anticipation for 1989 to drop. And we do hope we get a hairy styles feature. I don’t think we will, but we’re crossing every finger and crossing every toe to see if we can. Hello. Welcome to the show. If you are an oldie but a goodie, welcome back. If you are new., Hi, my name is Tori. I am a New York Times bestselling author. I’m a money expert. I fight the patriarchy by making you rich. And we produce this show to make sure that you have the resources you need to get better with money, but to also show up better in your life, show up better in your community, and use money as a tool of protest against the bullshit systems that exist.
We’re so excited to have you. A little bit of housekeeping. As always, if you like the show, the best way to support it is subscribing. Literally just clicking one button is the easiest way that you can support us and make sure that we as a women-led, women-focused show can continue producing and continue creating this show for you all. So that’s one easy way to support us. And if you have questions, comments, concerns, especially about anything personal finance, if you have questions about your debt or about investing or about saving money or about your weird workplace, you can leave us a voicemail. It’s linked down below, and we would love to use that in an upcoming episode and answer your question potentially. We love hearing from you.
All right, excited for today’s episode. We are talking today about curiosity and you’re like, I’m curious, why do I need to learn how to be curious? What does curiosity have to do with money or feminism or anything like that? And I will say it is absolutely inextricably linked, and today’s guest proves that. Scott Shigeoka is an internationally recognized curiosity expert, speaker and the author of Seek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World. He is known for translating research into strategies that promote positive wellbeing and connected relationships around the globe, including at the UC Berkeley’s Greater Good Science Center, and through his popular courses at the University of Texas at Austin.
We get into the importance of embracing curiosity in all of our relationships and interactions and how we can both be more curious while still holding boundaries around vulnerability, how we can approach our relationships with curiosity, especially when we’re talking about money or other subjects that can feel overwhelming. I think very important in this very fraught political climate, how we can use curiosity to have conversations with people who have varying beliefs and maybe different beliefs than us, especially the people we care about most, like our family and friends. We’re really excited for today’s episode. It was incredibly impactful. Scott is incredibly good at what they do and I just can’t wait for you to listen. So without further ado, let’s get into it. But first a word from our sponsors.
Scott Shigeoka:
I just moved up from Joshua Tree. I was living in Joshua Tree, California for a couple of years. That’s where I wrote the book. And then I fell in love. And then my boo, he is a nurse out in Oakland, so it’s a little bit harder for him to relocate. And so after having some conversations, which included some money talk conversations-
Tori Dunlap:
We love that.
Scott Shigeoka:
I decided to make the voyage up to Oakland. And it was really, really beautiful. It’s been such a, I’m in love. We’re having a good time up here.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s amazing.
Scott Shigeoka:
It feels, we’re very communicative, really loving our new home. I’ve got a lot of community out here in the Bay, so yeah, I feel very, very good and supported.
Tori Dunlap:
One of my good friends lived in Oakland for many, many years and then actually COVID, was like, okay, we’re going to move somewhere else. And so yeah, has been talking about going back though, so it’s interesting.
Scott Shigeoka:
Where did they go? And where are you at again?
Tori Dunlap:
I’m in Seattle. They went to Wine Country in California. They moved out there. It made sense for her. But yeah, I’m up in Seattle, I’m in LA and New York quite a bit for work, but I am born and raised Pacific Northwest and don’t plan on leaving anytime soon.
Scott Shigeoka:
Yes, I went to Wazzu, so let’s go to Washington-
Tori Dunlap:
Did you really? That’s where my partner went. That’s amazing.
Scott Shigeoka:
I did. I’m a Coug. Yeah, I’m a Coug.
Tori Dunlap:
I was not a Wazzu fan until I met him. I was like, I’m very much more tied to the Huskies. I have more friends who’ve gone to Huskies. That’s where I live, Seattle.
Scott Shigeoka:
As someone that’s all about bridging the divide and differences, I can see the humanity of both people who root for Huskies and the Coug. So let’s go.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally. Well, speaking of that, we’re so excited to have you on the show and so excited to talk with you about your work. Can you give us a background on what made you, forgive me, curious about the concept of curiosity?
Scott Shigeoka:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, for me in particular, it’s always been a superpower that I love. I remember my dad and I, we built this tree house in our backyard. He was a roofer, and we just went to Home Depot and actually we also went to Safeway because they have these pallets in the back of their store, they’re like, yeah, you can just take them. And we built this amazing treehouse, and that just became my sanctuary, my creative space where I could just get curious about myself in the world. And I came up with stories and I brought stuffed animals up there and orchestrated a theater pieces and would later become a playwright and would later create stories of my own and become a writer. But it was also the space. He almost had this anticipatory understanding of what I would need, because shortly after that, he was in and out of jail, and then he eventually went to prison for a number of years.
And that was also the place where I processed a lot of stuff, my difference. What does this mean? My relationship with my dad, why is he going to jail? I don’t understand that. My sexuality, I’m starting to like boys. That’s different from my friends. What’s going on there? So yeah, it also, curiosity was this place of just deeply understanding myself and my family and the people around me. I just have used it as this tool just in every aspect of my life, personally and professionally. It’s helped me to get, I got curious about writing. I was like, what are all the writing things, opportunities out in the world? When I was working at a Ruby Tuesday in DC post-college, and I just signed up for this class that resonated with me and that teacher and I built a really amazing relationship. Her name’s Holly.
And she was like, you know what, you are an amazing rudder. You have a wild personality. You wear fluorescent pink jumpsuits. I love your vibe. I actually am an editor at the Washington Post. I want to give you a job. I want you to write about music. So I’m like, what? So I quit my job at Ruby Tuesday. It’s always been this door opener for me. And then as I got into the research and in the past five years working at UC Berkeley’s Greater Good Science Center, I started to realize it’s not just a gateway for opportunities, it’s a gateway for connection. When we use curiosity, we can connect to others in a really deep way. And that’s what I love the most about it. But that’s my curiosity origin story 101.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that. I think in the book you mentioned, and I think we’re all feeling this way, that as much as we can intend to be curious people and live in a curious society, we’re kind of in this era of in curiosity. Can you talk about the flip side of if curious is something that I think we all wish we were, but we’re living in this area of in curiosity, what are its consequences both interpersonally and globally?
Scott Shigeoka:
At the end of the day, the whole takeaway of curiosity, if there’s one thing you need to know about curiosity, which is the search to understand, search to understand someone else, yourself, is that you’re really on this quest of helping people to feel seen and to feel heard and to feel like they actually matter. And that is so, so important and powerful. And on the flip side, when we’re not curious about someone, when our romantic partner walks through that door and we’re on our phone and we’re not curious about them, their day, their lives, what their joys and wonders and suffering is, they can really feel devalued and they can feel not seen, not heard, not appreciated. And it can really fracture our relationships. And it’s not just a romantic partnerships, it’s relationships with anyone, the people you work with, the people in your communities, your family, your friends.
So curiosity to me is all about how do we really enter the space where people are really valued, really seen, really heard in a deep way, not just at the surface level, we really get to their stories, to who they are beyond just what we think we are, what our assumptions are telling us about someone, and really, really understand them at a deep level. And that’s such a connective force. That’s truly what curiosity is about. It’s like how do we connect, especially like you said, in this moment of in curiosity, we’re divided more than ever. Our surgeon general in the US, Vivek Murthy, he says, we’re in this crisis of disconnection. And you can’t throw, you look in any direction on the news, social media, family reunions, when you go home, it’s just across politics and faith. The next geopolitical crisis that happens. And we’re just constantly dehumanizing each other or groups of people who we don’t even know.
And we know from the research that when you dehumanize people, when you turn away from them in curiosity and you dehumanize a group of people, it’s much easier to inflict hate on them. It’s much easier to be numb to suffering and violence that is being inflicted upon them. So really the stance is one of really, in order for us to be in solidarity with people, in order for us to really care for people, we got to turn towards them and be curious about them.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s so powerful what you just said. One of the things that I was thinking about and that our team was thinking about when we were researching this episode and preparing to talk with you, I think that there’s just this really interesting feeling that I have realized in the last couple of years, that I feel, and that a lot of my friends feel, which is that when someone has a difference in opinion to us, it can feel like an attack on our personal identity or an attack on the identity of a person that I love or a person that I support. And I think that that feels so different than maybe even let’s say 20 years ago or 30 years ago, where it was just like, oh, well, that person has a different political belief than mine, but they’re still a good person.
I think often if, I’m going to be honest, if somebody tells me they support Donald Trump, immediately I’m like, I don’t trust you. I don’t trust that you will support me and protect the people that I love and that I support. And there’s that immediate wall that goes up. And I think vice versa, if somebody who is anti-abortion hears that I’m pro, there’s probably a wall that goes up for them too. I don’t know, talk to me about that, because it’s not this feeling of, oh, they have a different opinion than mine and that’s fine. I even talk to my parents and my parents are often, they’ll often say to me, when we get in a disagreement, they’ll go, well, we have differing opinions, and that’s okay. And I often want to shake them and be like, if your opinion violates the rights of somebody, that’s not an opinion, that’s bullshit. So I don’t know, talk to me about that experience of feeling like my identity or the identity of people I love is almost insulted.
Scott Shigeoka:
And here’s the thing, is that curiosity does have limits and boundaries, and there’s certain things that we just fundamentally need to agree on. And sometimes those things are like justice and not dehumanizing people and not recklessly targeting or killing groups of people. And a lot of that does come from in curiosity, it’s people hold themselves up into their own communities or own beliefs and they’re unwilling to see other perspectives and other opinions. The other thing I’ll say is that power and curiosity are really related. So researchers like Emil Bruno have done studies and have found that the direction of curiosity matters. So if you have more social power in the situation, you should actually be more curious. You should be listening more and trying to understand what’s happening. And if you have less social power, it’s much more important for you to share and to tell your stories and to share your narratives and your thoughts.
Because in the cultures we live in, you’re often underrepresented and your thoughts and your voices and your stories aren’t reflected in culture as much as those who have more power than you. So what happens when you’re really sophisticated in the direction of curiosity, what happens is both groups walk away feeling closer to one another and they feel like they got something out of it. But oftentimes the way we design these kinds of spaces, is that it’s like, okay, you get 50% of the time, I get 50% of the time, we’re both going to leave. And then it’s like I see this in race dialogue groups all the time, white students walk away feeling like I learned something and I’m going to continue on this journey. But then students of color can sometimes feel like, oh my gosh, I feel drained and I feel like there’s so many more questions I have or I don’t feel truly hurt.
Same is true when men and women come together and the context is around gender, the patriarchy. You can’t design spaces in that way because we have to recognize that people are suffering and people with less social power have the microphone less, and it’s more important for them to be heard. And you as someone with more social power, where your stories are often shared in culture, actually need to do more of the curiosity and listening. And we see that in Canada, right? Indigenous people who have been impacted by the residential school system, which is recent history, a last residential school system closed in the 90s. Most of us listening, a lot of us listening were around when these residential schools were still open in Canada and indigenous students and their families were completely terrorized by these schools and killed, hurt, psychologically harmed, sexually assaulted. Just the worst things that you could imagine happened at these, quote unquote, schools.
And what Ry Morran and other indigenous leaders did with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, is these stories of survivors need to be heard. And you as a non-indigenous Canadian needs to sit, be curious and listen in with intent. And it might be really, really effing uncomfortable, but it is so important for you to really understand what people have gone through in this country. And that was done in a trauma-informed way so that you can ensure that people aren’t feeling re-traumatized from sharing their stories, or they’re not vicariously traumatizing others. But also it is so important for non-indigenous Canadians to empathize, connect, and recognize how a group of people have been devalued in this country and in Canada in particular for indigenous people. So that’s my belief around curiosity. It’s not this kumbaya, let’s hold hands, civility. And it’s also not consensus.
I’m not going to change my beliefs for you, for us, for me to be curious. I wouldn’t expect a Christian to change their beliefs when they’re getting curious about someone who’s Muslim or Buddhist or vice versa. We can still believe the things we do so strongly, but also not lose sight of the humanity of the person who we’re getting curious about and hope that over the relationship, that opinions and perspectives will shift as they really open up to the stories of real people and how they’re being impacted in consequential ways.
Tori Dunlap:
I am a massive Brene Brown fan and I’ve researched and learned so much about her work and vulnerability. And the more I hear you talk, the more I realize curiosity takes this intense vulnerability and this intense bravery both to admit what you don’t know to potentially be, especially I can speak as a white person, there’s been a lot of come to Jesus moments that white people have had in the past couple of years especially. And it’s like that’s often really scary. And then on the flip side it’s very scary to, and it takes a lot of bravery and courage and vulnerability to admit when you do feel hurt or traumatized or something’s happened. And so is that why curiosity feels so scary, because this bravery and this vulnerability has to be learned and has to be a conscious choice?
Scott Shigeoka:
I’ll say that it really depends on the circumstance too, right? So getting curious about your best friend’s emotions and experience to their concert resettle that they just had, that curiosity maybe feels like lower stakes than something like with your parents.
Tori Dunlap:
Those are more low stakes curious situations.
Scott Shigeoka:
Exactly. Where there’s not a ton of conflict and tension. And if you’re new to the game of curiosity, you haven’t practiced it a lot in your life or don’t feel as connected to it. You don’t have to start by jumping right into that conversation with your parents or go into that Trump rally like I did. In the same way that if you’re new to running, you wouldn’t just run a marathon on your first day or you’re new to weightlifting, you wouldn’t try to bench four your pounds or whatever, the exercises. Curiosity is a muscle and you have to develop it over time. And so you have to practice it by looking inward towards yourself. That’s a great place to start. If you’ve got all the people listening who also have a Western talk therapist like I do, that’s the whole journey of our relationship, our therapeutic relationship.
He’s helping me to get curious about myself and to be like, oh, how did that make me feel? And how did I respond or react in that particular case to that event that happened during moving with my partner? So curiosity can start from an inward perspective before you even move outward to other people. And then when you are ready to go out to other people, you can start with the people closest to you, your romantic partners, your friends, people who you feel really psychologically safe with. Maybe there’s a lot of alignment on the deep core beliefs that you have. But there’s a couple of things where there’s differences. Since we’re a Financial Feminist, maybe the ways we think about money or the ways that we spend money.
And so you know that you have these core values you share, but there’s differences in this other space, and that’s where you can start to practice curiosity, that then beefs up that muscle so that you can take it into other environments that are a lot scarier. Because for sure it is scary, it is scary to come in with curiosity, especially in those really intense circumstances for sure.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and I wanted to round out kind of the, I don’t know, intense curiosity moments. You did mention and we had planned to ask you about going to a Trump rally. What was that like? What were your friends’ reaction to that? Tell me why you opted to do that and how that felt and what that experience taught you.
Scott Shigeoka:
Totally. First of all, if you can’t see me, I’m like, I am Asian American, I’m progressive, I am queer. I usually dress very flamboyantly. Right now I have a colorful blouse top, but I usually am in pink jumpers. I love dressing up and expressing myself through fashion. And so it was important for me when I went on this trip for 12 months around the country, going to Trump rallies and churches and meeting people in very different regions and places in the country, that I didn’t give up any part of who I am, that I didn’t hide parts of who I am, that I just genuinely shared everything that was truthful about me. Because as someone who’s queer, and even as someone who’s Asian American, I’m tired of hiding. I want to be known for who I am, and that is beautiful. I know my worth and I’m just going to come and start from that perspective.
So that’s what I did when I went to the rally in Minnesota in this case. I saw the sea of red shirts and hats and the big jumbotrons, and I was scared, I was scared, especially when your friends see you and then they see the route you’re going on and they’re like, maybe you should bring a knife or pepper stray. I don’t know. I don’t know if you can trust what’s about to throw down. And they’re coming from a place of feeling their own pain and seeing the suffering that they’ve seen unfold in the country. And they’re coming from a place of fear, but also protection. They want me to be safe. But I went there. I didn’t arm myself because I just didn’t think that that was going to be the smart decision for me personally. And I just went up to people and I started talking to folks in line. And I just told them, hey, I hear a lot of stories about who you are from the news and social media, but I’m deeply curious.
I want to just understand you. I want to understand where you’re coming from and why you’re voting in this way and what your life is like, because I don’t have a picture of that. I don’t. And surprisingly, people weren’t on the offense. People were down to share information. Maybe they had me, I picked up a little bit of like, but why are you actually here? That’s interesting that you’re here. But the way in which I approached it with curiosity versus saying, my ideas and my beliefs are better than yours. I don’t understand why you’re voting for this person. What is wrong with you? That’s just not going to turn into a potentially connective experience for both of us. And what was interesting was that the more that I listened to them and genuinely came from a place of understanding, the more that they started to ask me questions and they’re like, well, why are you here and where are you from?
And then I started talking about my own identities, my own experiences, what it’s like to grow up in Hawaii, et cetera. And that was a beautiful sort of exchange of understanding that I feel like we don’t often get to in the current political arena because we’re constantly canceling and shutting each other down. So we were waiting in line, I’m having all these interesting conversations and I’m realizing that my stereotypes of who a Trump voter is, because at the time it was, oh, they must be illiterate or uneducated or they don’t care about the things that I care about. And as I started to talk to them, I realized, oh my gosh, some of them have advanced degrees and some of them are humanitarians and work in nonprofits. One of them actually that I talked to really cared about climate change. And I was like, what? I thought y’all weren’t down with that or were in denial of that.
I started to see the individuality of each person. I talked to probably around 15 ish people there in line, because you wait for hours before you get into the arena. It’s like a sporting event or Black Friday shopping or something like that. And we went deep and I heard stories of how they felt othered by their girlfriend’s friends who thought they were dumb or stupid, and they would hear these comments behind their back. And I was just remembering the moments when I felt othered and just how it made me feel, made me feel angry and alone and actually hardened my beliefs and made me not want to connect with those people who had those views on me. And yeah, I think I just felt a lot of pain and anger and sadness and fear for where the country was headed. And those are things that I would say I feel too, and many people who I’m more ideologically aligned to also feel.
But also I went into the arena. It was like the NBA finals. There’s all these signs, there’s all this chanting and cheering. All these speakers come up. Trump finally gets up. He’s just saying the same shit that I’ve heard over and over again. And I was just like, I could not, that I couldn’t take, because I had to separate this person, this leader who was galvanizing this sort of movement and the individuals who were voting for him, those are two separate sort of entities that I had to sort of remember. Because I always just loop them all into one sort of monolithic group. But I had to be like, no, these are also individuals too that have families and deep cares and values just like I do, who I’m sitting next to.
I ended up leaving the Trump rally early. This group of Trump voters we’re leaving too. And I was like, wait, but the person you came to see is talking right now. Why are you leaving early? And they’re like, we’re trying to get ahead of traffic. And I was like, okay, great. So we walked out together. There was a sea of counter protestors and they were just holding signs and singing songs, things that I’ve done before, being on the front lines of different movements. And one of the guys from the counter protestor group shouted at us and said, fuck you racists. Get out of our town or get out of our city. And I was just so depleted from energy, I couldn’t even say anything. The person next to me, the trumpeter was like, I’m not a racist. And in my head I was just like, bro, my views are way more similar to yours likely than the people I’m walking out with.
Also you don’t know anything about me and you’re like shouting this thing at me that sort of made me remember all of those things that I’ve been told of Ching Chong and get out of our country and where you actually from. And it was just like, wow, I feel so othered by people I feel so connected to. And so I think what I saw was this rupture that’s happening in our country where we’re really not seeing people for who they are. We’re dehumanizing people and we’re lobbying such harsh words or actions on one another. That’s really harmful. And I want to see us move in a different direction as a country that’s healthier and where our wellbeing is positive, not negative, and our relationships aren’t severed, but they’re connected. It was an intense experience, but learned a lot definitely.
Tori Dunlap:
Talk to me about the framework that you developed, the DIVE framework.
Scott Shigeoka:
So just like exercising a muscle and you need the set of exercises when you go to the gym. I wanted to make sure that folks who were interested in curiosity have the same access to that understanding. I created this motto, it’s called DIVE and it’s an acronym. So D-I-V-E stand for the four core muscles of deep curiosity. So D is to detach, which is to let go of your A, B, Cs, your assumptions, biases and certainty. So detaching is all about we have assumptions that we hold about other people and who they are because we know their politics, their faith, their gender, whatever. And we have to interrupt that. One of the practices is called back that ass up, and ass is short for assumption. It’s like we got to back that ass up. We got many assumptions and we got to back that ass up and we got to see and pressure test and validate and interrupt those assumptions that often are over exaggerated, untrue, or just more nuanced than we think they are. So that’s what D is all about.
And it’s also about letting go of certainty. There’s so much that’s in our culture that’s like you got to have all the answers and you need to shout those answers to be heard and seen, and that makes you a valued contributor in society. When the truth is sometimes the questions are way more interesting and way more powerful for us in our relationships and in the work we do. And we need to really prioritize this idea that we got to be humble. We don’t have all the answers. When our partner asks us something about our emotions around a certain purchase that we have, if we haven’t reflected on it and we don’t know the answer, it’s okay for us to say, I don’t know, but I need to reflect on that. I need to really think that through. And that encourages reflection and thoughtfulness. You have the exercise of having people reflect on their first money memory. Having the ability to have reflection and thoughtfulness and space before you respond because you’ve detached, is so key.
And instead of just blurting out the first thing that comes to your mind that might be harmful for that conversation or that relationship. I as intend, which is to create the mindset and setting for curiosity. So where you talk about things matter, the physical setting. If you want to come super curious and you’re having a money talk conversation or you’re talking about the relationship you’re in and some challenges you’re going through, maybe doing it on the subway when there’s a ton of people around you and you’re trying to switch trains, maybe not the best time to bring it up from a physical setting perspective, maybe there’s a better space where you feel like you can both be psychologically safe and vulnerable and express all your emotions without the pressures of people around you.
So setting is important, but also the mindset, actually visualize what kinds of questions are you going to ask. Do you have all the information you need for that conversation that you can bring into it. So many people I talk to have really big conversations about money, for instance, and they just come into the conversation, they launch into without doing the thoughtful preparation of really reflecting on their own views, thinking about what they want to share in that conversation. So mindset is so, so important. V is value, which is to see the dignity of the person you’re being curious with. And so like I said, when you dehumanize someone, it is much harder to be curious about them. It is also so much easier to hate them and to want to inflict harm on them because they’re not human, they’re less than. And so the same is true even in our day-to-day relationships.
We might not realize it, but there’s these little things that we’re doing that might be dehumanizing our partner. For instance, let’s say our kid, our kid has a baseball game and they’re like, oh my gosh, I didn’t do a good job at that baseball game, dad. I feel really bad about it. Our inclination might be to say, no, you did super great. Look at all those other people on the field. You did just as good as them and your team won and they’re everything. You’re great son. You’re really good at this sport. But what you’re doing is you’re invalidating their experience and their perspective. You’re saying that the way you see the world child is not accurate. And in fact, I’m going to tell you the complete opposite and invalidate the emotions that you’re feeling because I’m trying to fix you. I’m trying to feel less comfortable about your sadness or your feelings of failure.
And that person, that child doesn’t feel seen or heard. They feel dehumanized. They’re like, well, then almost like gas lit, right? It’s like, wow, I guess I’m wrong about this perspective and opinion. We don’t mean to do that to our child, to our partners, to the people we work alongside, but sometimes we do do that. I feel like I messed up on that project. No, you did great. Don’t worry, you’re killing it out there. When you could be saying, tell me more. I want to understand your humanity. I want to understand the real emotions you’re having about this situation. And that is a bridge for connection. It doesn’t just cut off the conversation or tell them that what they’re experiencing isn’t valid. And then the last piece is E, embrace, which is to welcome the hard times in our lives because that’s when we need to be curious the most actually, is when we’re going through grief or loss or heartbreak or we had a financial whoa or we’ve experienced a layoff.
These are the moments when we really need to get curious, understand what is it that we really want and need? Who are the people that are around us that are going to support us in this moment? What are the things that I can ask for from them, if at all? That’s what’s really going to help us to move through these really hard moments. And sometimes they’re not negative, they’re positive things, but still challenging, like welcoming a new child into the family or getting married. Those are things that still require your curiosity. How do I want to show up in this marriage? How do I want to value my partner? What are my boundaries in this marriage? Curiosity is so, so important in these hard moments, and we know from the research that it actually reduces anxiety and fear in these really, really scary moments.
Even something as scary as death. End of life doulas and palliative care staff, they use curiosity to help people move through and reduce our end of life anxiety by asking questions, what is the life you’ve lived? And what’s the legacy you’re giving to the next generation? And what relationships are important to you and how would you like to die with dignity? And it feels so counterintuitive, but when you’re curious about the things you fear and are anxious about, you actually reduce it. That’s why exposure therapy works for phobias. You’re afraid of spiders, well look at the photo of a spider and then see it in the glass box and oh my God, if you’re going to be one of those people, like hold the spider.
I don’t know if I’m there yet on my phobia journey, but getting closer and closer into contact with what you fear, the groups of people you fear, that spider you fear, that conversation about money you don’t want to talk about because you’re afraid of how it’s going to go. Well, actually getting more curious about it is going to reduce those feelings of fear and anxiety, and that’s what embrace is all about. So DIVE, detach, intend, value, embrace. And if there’s any communication coaches out there, I’m trying to figure out how to shorten that explanation, but because a lot there. But yeah, I’ve done a lot of thinking around that.
Tori Dunlap:
No, it’s fantastic. I was just going to compliment you on it. It’s very detailed and it’s very helpful. Also with spiders, everything changed for me when I read a tweet that said, spiders are just little grandmas trying to knit.
Scott Shigeoka:
Oh my God, that’s so real though. I love that.
Tori Dunlap:
They’re just little grandmas trying to knit.
Scott Shigeoka:
They’re just little grandmas trying to knit.
Tori Dunlap:
I literally, I have one right outside that’s been hanging out and I’m just like, okay. Go ahead, you knit, girl. You keep knitting. You’re doing great.
Scott Shigeoka:
I love that. And what stories and dominant culture told us that we should fear spotters and snakes. We got to be keyed in and curious to that, because-
Tori Dunlap:
Snakes are a different thing. All snakes need to die.
Scott Shigeoka:
For sure, for sure. We’re all on our own journey story.
Tori Dunlap:
If somebody has the grandma’s knitting version of snakes, I would love to hear it. But yeah, I have been very vocal on this show about my fear of eels and snakes and I don’t like either. So yeah, give me the grandma trying to knit version of both of those things, and I’ll like them more.
Scott Shigeoka:
More to come, an update on the next episode. We’ll get back to you on that.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, perfect. I didn’t know this, but dopamine is created when we’re in a state of curiosity. So by that curiosity is not only good for us at a societal level, but also from a health perspective.
Scott Shigeoka:
So basically, so when we’re curious, we release dopamine in our brain, and the motivation rewards system in our brain. And essentially what that means is, it’s also called the happy hormone. It’s the neurotransmitter that we release when we have sex, which I love personally. Or when we eat a tasty, delicious meal, we release dopamine. It gives us pleasure, it gives us this feeling that feels it’s so good. It gives us that tingliness. And the reason it does that is because it wants to incentivize that behavior. Yes, eat this delicious food, get the nutrients, have the energy, yes, have evolutionary, at least, have the sex because we know that that helps you to keep the species going, but also there’s all these other psychological and physical benefits to doing it, if that’s what you’re down with.
There’s so, because shout out to all my sexuals out there, there’s all ways of thinking about any of these topics. But dopamine being released when you’re being curious is actually really cool. Because when folks, I just did this interview from a dating columnist who was like, we were talking about it and I was like, the one advice I give to people when they’re going on dates is be interested, not interesting, and to ask questions. And if you’re 40 minutes into the first date and you haven’t asked a single question, you’ve been talking about me, me, me, because you’re trying to glow up yourself, which I’m all for. “If you don’t love yourself, how are you going to love anyone else?” RuPaul like yes, love yourself and scream that to the world, but also be interested in the person you’re on a date with because that’s going to create that connection and make them glow up and make them feel like they matter and are seen and herd.
And so be interested, not interesting, and know that by you doing that, it’s going to feel so pleasurable. It’s going to feel like you’re eating a delicious bite of food. It’s going to feel like you’re having sex. And that’s same is truth with curiosity. And you feel it when you are like, wait, Taylor Swift and Beyonce made how much on their last tour? And then you start going into the rabbit hole of figuring that out. It’s exciting and you’re learning things. Or when you’re in a conversation with someone and you’re asking questions, they’re asking questions back to you and you just, man, you’re just like, oh my God, I see you, same, same, same. That feels good. It feels really, really pleasurable. And sometimes it’s because we have this fear like, oh my gosh, curiosity can feel really daunting at times, just like it’s daunting to go to the gym sometimes I’m like, oh my gosh, do I really want to get there?
When you actually get there and you’re there in the gym or you’re there out running, or you’re there getting curious, it feels so good and you’re like, I’m so thankful that that’s the way that I showed up. Because it’s really, really good for you, not just from the dopamine perspective, but for your relationships. We also know from the research, curious people are happier people. We know from the research that curious people have higher levels of life satisfaction, more fulfilling relationships. Makes sense. You look at the happy married couple that’s been together for many, many years, decades, they’re consistently curious towards one another and the people around them. You look at older adults who are just thriving in life, they stay curious and they’re constantly engaged with the world.
And in fact, we know that the minute you stop getting curious is when you chop off years of your life, there’s actually evidence to show that you being less curious increases your mortality. So curiosity is literally a lifeline, but it’s also one of our best companions that can join us along the journey of life, and that’s what I love about it.
Tori Dunlap:
I know there’s people who are older in my life who are curious, and frankly they’re just more fun to be around. They look and feel a lot younger. They’re just happier. And I have older people in my life who are not very curious and they’re not as fun to be around. They’re not as kind and generous, and their energy is just different. And so yeah, I couldn’t agree more with that.
Scott Shigeoka:
When you’re in curious, you’re like, I know everything, all my beliefs are right. You’ll understand when you’re older, because I’ve learned everything that I needed to know. Wow, that is arrogance, and that doesn’t feel communal, it’s not friendly, it’s not generous, all these things you’re saying. And folks who have that wonder, why don’t I have those deep relationships with my kids? Or why aren’t these friends coming around and hanging out with me all the time? Well, it’s like practice a little bit more curiosity and bring that into your life and see how that transforms the ways that people feel around you. It’s so incredible. People will start to feel valued and appreciated and they’ll want to see you more and they’ll want to be around you more.
The research shows in the workplace when you have more curiosity and more intellectual humility as a leader, you’re actually seen as more friendly, communal, likable, and more competent. And that one’s important because a lot of people fear that when they say things like, oh, I don’t know something, or I’m not sure about that, or, oh, I have questions about it. They think that it makes them look weak or incompetent, but the truth is, it’s actually not the case. People actually have more confidence in you because they recognize that you don’t have this arrogance and that we’re going to do it because we’ve always done it this way.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s really, really helpful. Talk to me about curiosity as an intellectual pursuit versus curiosity as a heart-based pursuit.
Scott Shigeoka:
So a lot of people think about curiosity as I’m going to fill up the knowledge in my head, like I was saying with the Taylor Swift, Beyonce, rabbit holes we get into, which are great and also helpful for trivia, we need that in our lives, and bring it down from the head to the heart and see curiosity as more than just extracting information and see it as a force for connection. That’s what everything we’re talking about is, it’s to see us getting curious as a way to connect with one another. I wanted to talk a lot about money stuff because I know that’s an interest of y’all’s audience, and that’s why I listened to the show too, and I thought about this in the context of relationships when we want to talk about money, but we have shame around it or we feel like we aren’t leveled up in the same way as our partners, or we’re fearful of where that’s going to head.
We can reframe that to us getting curious about our partners and us talking about money and understanding the emotions that our partners have about money and what they value and their relationship to money and their money trauma. It is so, so helpful, and it’s a gateway to us understanding them and connecting with them. So see those conversations as a way to get to know your partner even more and to see more of them and for you to help them feel appreciated and like they matter. And same for them towards you. When they start asking you questions about your relationship with money, oh my gosh, you start to feel more seen and appreciated, even if sometimes that doesn’t line up. The quest is about understanding and using that as a force for connection. I think it’s also a tool for us to look inward too in relationships.
You had a great episode I listened to recently on the red flags, financial red flags that we can see in partners. Well, if you’re never curious and checking in on what your own boundaries are, the relationship you’re in and you’re not actually reflecting on it and being constantly curious, you might realize two years later and come awake and be like, oh my gosh, that whole time, those are all red flags, but you weren’t attuned to it. You weren’t aware to it, you weren’t curious about what was happening. It’s even for your self-protection and preservation and connecting to yourself, it is such an important tool. So important.
Tori Dunlap:
And I love that you brought up financial because of course I was obviously going to ask you about that. It’s mentioned something that really stuck out when we were talking about you coming on, you said, after our basic needs are met, conversations about money are really conversations about feelings and values, and I could not agree more. I talk about this a lot on the show and my work and the book. We think money is about math. It’s not about math. It’s not about numbers in a spreadsheet. It’s not really about compound interest, even though I talk about that all the time. It’s about your emotions. It’s about how you feel. It’s about your trauma, it’s about your narratives that you’ve been believing about money, and yet it’s about how vulnerable and curious are you willing to be in order to better your relationship with money, to better your relationship with your partner as you manage money.
So how can we bring curiosity into these financial conversations? And you’ve answered this a bit, but I’m thinking about, yeah, sitting down talking about money is the number one thing we avoid. We’ll talk about any other uncomfortable topic. I’ve said this before of course, but sex, death, politics, religion, we are statistically more likely to talk about those things before we’ll talk about money. So how can we get brave and curious and vulnerable enough to actually start having conversations and actually start looking at our bills and our bank account statements?
Scott Shigeoka:
Totally. I think it’s when you come to the table together and you first start by norming that conversation and saying, let’s remember that this is about understanding one another and our values and our stories and our emotions about money. Let’s start from that place. When we’re sharing, let’s really listen in and understand the other person, and that be our goal. Not for us to share our own perspective or opinions or how we differ or how my beliefs clash with yours, but I’m just here to listen and understand you. And I think that’s helpful to start with. And having scripts that you can take into that conversation, like tell me more, is a really, really good one. It’s like, wow, okay, so you would spend $600 on a lamp? And you’re like, your first reaction if you don’t have that script is like, that is way too much money for a lamp.
But that then makes them feel like they don’t matter, that they’re unheard, and you’re missing out on so much interesting context that lives beneath that. So instead you could say, oh, a $600 purchase for a lamp. Tell me more. Why is that important to you? What is it about that lamp that you would be willing to spend that? Oh, well, my dad had that growing up and he’s obviously no longer with us, and I want that to be in the house because it’s going to be my way of remembering him. Whoa, that’s a very different sort of context around that lamp that you didn’t have moving into that conversation. Or it could just be like, it’s pretty, and I like pretty things, and that is also valid. But you still now know what’s underneath the desire to purchase a $600 lamp that you wouldn’t have if you immediately reacted with your own bias and your own perspective.
So that’s a script I like to give people, is like, tell me more. I think the other thing that’s really, really helpful as well is who else? It’s that you both are in a relationship, but you don’t have to just solve every problem on your own. You can go out and almost do your own exploratory voyages to understand how people talk about money. And by you going out and having those kinds of conversations, not only is it like, whoa, wait, you experienced that too. Same. Same. Makes you feel so emotionally connected to your friends or your families or whoever you’re talking to about it. But it also gives you tools and techniques and new scripts that you can bring into the conversation that’s really interesting. For instance, I just did this and I heard from a friend that one partner who earns a little bit less pays for all of the sort of living expenses like the rent and the food, and then the person who makes more puts it all into investments under both people’s names so that everyone benefits.
That’s a different sort of mechanics. And you pay 70%, I pay 30. Equity in a relationship for finances can exist in a number of ways. And the reason why they got to that is because one partner was feeling emasculated by having to pay such a small amount, and that’s their own journey that they’re going on. But as a way to circumvent that and to respond to that and for him to feel like he matters and that his emotional context and wherever he’s at, meeting him where he’s at, that’s the solution that they had and I think it’s great, especially when both names are being supported. You talk a lot about this, make sure your names are on the things. I won’t go into details there. I think having those kinds of scripts, and again, thinking about the setting you’re in and your mindset that you’re coming into it, have you eaten? Are you well rested before you have this conversation? What’s the thing that’s happening the next day or that you’re just coming out of it?
It was a really chaotic day. You just took your dog to the vet and it’s been wild. Ooh, maybe if this is your first time doing a money talk, let’s reschedule it. Let’s find a moment where we can feel spacious to talk about it. Those are all things to consider when you enter into these kinds of conversations, and just know we’re human and it’s going to be messy, and sometimes you’re going to get things wrong. So the power of an apology and the power of forgiveness. When we do mess up, when we do react and say, what the fuck, a $600 lamp? Hell no. So sorry, that was not the right way for me to respond in that moment. Please tell me more. I was just getting ahead of myself. I was having a reaction. My emotions are valid, but I also want to understand where you’re coming from. Right?
Tori Dunlap:
I love that, and I think it’s really, it’s so interesting when, again, you’re talking about anything that is, and I keep saying the word vulnerability today, but anything that feels vulnerable, then that’s kind of what I was trying to say before, is it takes a certain amount of buy-in. You have to be present in order to be curious as opposed to a, what the fuck are you doing spending that kind of money? That’s a knee-jerk reaction as opposed to a, tell me more about that. That’s a different kind of reaction. So that curiosity takes a lot of effort, and ultimately of course it makes us feel better. It makes our relationships better, but we do have to consciously choose it.
Scott Shigeoka:
Exactly. And that’s why I think it’s so important to key in, are you hungry? Did you have a spacious day today? Just to set yourself up for success. But yeah, I think, yeah, and stay connected to this is about connection and remember that it’s a pleasurable experience and know that you can say no. You might just get tired midway through or lose energy, kind of like I did at the Trump rally, and you just be like, curiosity overload. This is too much for me. And you can express your boundaries in that way. And that’s so, so important. I have a whole chapter in Seek, about boundaries because it’s so important. Because just because you’re curious doesn’t mean that you deserve to have the answer. I talk about in the book, a story of a little girl with a prosthetic leg, and there was a little boy on a play date, and he was really curious about prosthetics and wanted to touch it and wanted to ask a lot of questions to her.
And her and her mom were like, no, this is a boundary. We’re not going to let you do that. That’s going to infringe on her wellbeing and her sense of safety and autonomy. And really sometimes curiosity can come from an ableist place, from a place of wanting to get information about someone that you actually don’t deserve. That’s why there’s legal protections over the kinds of questions you can ask in the hiring process for instance. No, I’m going to be the person that’s in power of my own narrative, and I will let you know when I feel comfortable to share something. It goes in both directions. But you asking and having a built relationship where there’s trust and where there is that consent baked in, then it creates an opportunity for sharing and for depth. But you always got to have that grace and that compassion to be like, okay, you’re not ready. Totally fine. That’s something that we’ll work on later.
But at a certain point you can be really, really curious in a relationship. I read about a mother-daughter relationship, and the daughter’s trying so hard and is investing a lot into the relationship with her mom, but just every time she leaves the conversation, she feels harmed and feels disregarded and devalued. And after years of it and talking to her therapist, she’s like, all right, no contact. I got to do that. I got to do that. I’m sorry. And that’s hard, but you got to do it sometimes, because you have to protect yourself, your loved ones, your family, your children, whoever it is that are also being impacted by that toxic relationship. So boundaries are so important. I’m not like we must at all costs be curious. No, that’s not real.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally. Yep. Couldn’t agree more with that. It is a balance of curiosity and boundaries most definitely. Ariel, our researcher came up with this question and we loved it. What is the thing humans have learned through curiosity that you’re most confused by? And she said, I am personally confused and I am as well, how we learned how to eat half the foods we now eat. How did we figure that out?
Scott Shigeoka:
Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Tori Dunlap:
What is one is one thing that you think humans learn through curiosity that you’re super confused by?
Scott Shigeoka:
Oh my gosh, that’s so interesting. I love that question and I’m so curious about the answer to that one. For me, I think it’s, I don’t know, maybe it’s just the time we’re in and there’s just so much geopolitical crises going on, and I just don’t understand how so many people can be down with dehumanization. I just can’t wrap my head around how we can be so okay with terror and just innocent people dying and violence and praising and be like, yes, this is for the defense of our country or yes, we must do this because we have to. It’s just like, whoa, and there’s a lot of disparate philosophies and I’ve really tried to sink my teeth into so many because I’ve learned through my own curiosity of seeing the groups of people that are expressing, especially oppressed people that are expressing the need and the desires for violence as a way to be seen and heard and as a way to work towards liberation.
But just generally, it’s hard for me to wrap my head around that and I just don’t know where does that come from? I am really struggling with that right now, I think just hopping on social media and I’m just like, wow, I can’t believe some of the things that the people I love and know really well are saying about groups of people, some of them who have never even traveled to the region of the world that they’re talking about. And I’m just like, or don’t know anyone who’s Palestinian, Israeli and I’m just like, in this case, and it’s going to be another conflict I’m sure, by the time this airs. And it feels like there’s a constant cycle of conflict that keeps happening in our country.
And that’s why I wrote this book. I’m like, I’m going to do my one little seed planting and try to make that a sunflower and hopefully help point towards the direction of the sun and the light and just we’re real growth and real protection of people and planet is, which is what I believe in. But I struggle with that. I don’t know. What about you? What is the thing? How would you answer that question?
Tori Dunlap:
You have a very important capital I, important prophetic answer. I’m over here like, how did we figure out that kissing felt good? I’m going to put my tongue in your mouth. How did we figure that out? It must’ve just been, same thing with sex, how did we determine what went where and what holes? How did that happen?
Scott Shigeoka:
Totally.
Tori Dunlap:
I also have what Ariel is like. I think about this all the time, this is a deep cut into my brain, but I think about probably at least once a week, how did we look at a tree and decide that that was going to be called a tree? Or whatever language you speak, how did we decide what things are called? The other thing for me is I often wonder, again, this is a once a week occurrence. I’m curious, does everybody see color the way I do?
Scott Shigeoka:
I love that.
Tori Dunlap:
I can look at a tree and say, that’s green, and it’s this particular green to me, but I’ve never seen that tree through anybody else’s eyes. Literally physical eyes. So I don’t know if you also see the same green I do.
Scott Shigeoka:
Oh my God.
Tori Dunlap:
This is the only reality I’ve ever known, or at least that I’m conscious of. This is a lot of shit that goes on in my brain.
Scott Shigeoka:
Oh my God. Well, also you’re seeing this shit that goes on in my brain, that intensity of my question is literally, he must be fun at parties. They must be fun at parties. You know what I mean? Because I’m the one that’s like, yeah, but also let [inaudible 00:56:05]. I want to bring more.
Tori Dunlap:
I think that way too. I also just, I am also curious about how we decided that yeah, fingers can go in people’s holes and that tongues can go in mouths and that will feel good.
Scott Shigeoka:
Oh my gosh. I’m like, where did I learn that? Oh my gosh, now I’m on this own meta, interior curiosity journey on where I first learned that. I’m going to have to do some reflection.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, I imagine, not to get too explicit, but I think to your point of sex feels good, from a biological standpoint there must have, we all have sexual urges. That’s probably how that came about. But Kissing’s one of those that’s not obviously necessary to sexual intercourse, but somebody figured out at some point that that was interesting to do. So I’m not sure. I’m not sure how we got here.
Scott Shigeoka:
And does everyone who kisses actually like it? You know what I mean? Or are they just feeling like they have to do this, this is something that they like?
Tori Dunlap:
Sure.
Scott Shigeoka:
That’s what I also want. I love kissing personally, but I know that some of my dearest aren’t down with it and they do it, and I’m like, but is it, oh, do you do it because that’s what your partner wants? And you’re just showing up. And they’re like, oh, I don’t know if they like it. And it’s like, oh, well, okay.
Tori Dunlap:
Do you do it because the media? The first I think sexual act we all see in the media is like somebody kissing somebody else.
Scott Shigeoka:
Totally.
Tori Dunlap:
This is down the rabbit hole, forever in my brain.
Scott Shigeoka:
Totally. I love it though.ah,
Tori Dunlap:
I love Ariel’s too. I think about that a lot, of somebody had to realize at one point that that mushroom you couldn’t eat, and it was because Dave died after he ate that mushroom. Well, we can’t eat that mushroom again.
Scott Shigeoka:
Totally. Oh my gosh.
Tori Dunlap:
People had to die in order for us to understand what food was edible and what food wasn’t.
Scott Shigeoka:
Or like, oh wow, that mushroom takes you on a journey, y’all like, we’re going to meet over here. Go on that journey together.
Tori Dunlap:
Dave’s been tripping balls for days.
Scott Shigeoka:
We’re going to go on an eight-hour experience and you’re going to see the world in the way you haven’t. And this is pre airplanes, so we’re like, we’re traveling dimensionally here.
Tori Dunlap:
Right, right.
Scott Shigeoka:
So good and so good.
Tori Dunlap:
Scott, my last question for you, what is one way that somebody can be more curious today, even if it’s just in a small way?
Scott Shigeoka:
I teach and I talk to so many young people all the time, and I witness this disconnection to nature a lot with some folks. I think getting out into nature is such a beautiful way to reignite curiosity. One of my friends, Dr. Keltner, he calls it an awe walk, walk for 10 minutes around the block and just be in awe of everything around you, like the birds, the trees, that flower that’s coming out of that sidewalk, your neighbor who’s creating their little dope front porch, flower set up. Just be in awe on that walk. Or you can even get out into nature. I just went camping with my godchild and my two besties and my partner, and we’re just getting so curious about the mist and how that all works and we’re just looking at every acorn and the shapes of it. I think it’s just a fun, beautiful way to ground into curiosity that I think most people are down with.
You don’t got to go on a full on hike or full on camp if that’s not your thing, but you could hang out at the park and have some mushrooms, have some cheese and wine and just be in awe and in presence with the people around you and nature around you. Because I think a lot of people think about curiosity in the conversational sense with other people, and they think that’s the only way that they can strengthen the muscle. But as I read about in Seek, there’s so many other ways, like getting into your body through movement. I call it body journaling. It’s like journal with your body, which is what I did on Tuesday to Janelle Monae. You know what I mean? Or you can get out into nature. That’s a great way to tap into your curiosity too.
You can explore the world or your interests, and that’s a great way to activate curiosity that’s going to serve you in your more interpersonal or reflective or relationship journeys too. So yeah, get out into nature and be curious about everything that you experienced there. Notice all of it unfolding, no mushrooms required. You can just do that on a good old glass of water.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your work. It’s so interesting, and this is going to be one of those episodes that I go back and listen to when it comes out. Even though I just heard this whole thing, I’m like, I’m going to need it again in a couple of weeks. So tell us where we can find out more about you and tell us about your book.
Scott Shigeoka:
Absolutely. So you can learn more about my book, Seek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World at seekthebook.com. Go to your indie booksellers. Y’all call those bookstores, go into them. That’s a great place to buy them. Let’s support small businesses. That’s what I’m all about, these indie bookstores. That was my life growing up. I was that kid on the little step stool reading books in the aisles with the fantasy books all hovering over you like, let’s support these businesses. They’re awesome. And then also, you can find me online on the interwebs @scottshigeoka. I actually respond to DMs. Come through. Tell me your thoughts on this episode. If you read the book, tell me about what you liked, what you didn’t.
I will stay curious and I will stay in that conversation. I want to hear from you. That’s why I became an author was so I can connect with people in real ways. That’s what I love the most. And I was like, whoa, I can get paid for that? Cool. So please reach out. And yeah, thank you so much for holding this space and for your time and for the ways in which you’re supporting so many people. I feel so, so humble to be a listener of this podcast and to then be on the other side. It’s actually really surreal. And so yeah, I’m just excited to share some thoughts and hopefully it was helpful for someone that was listening in.
Tori Dunlap:
I so appreciate that. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much to Scott for joining us for this episode. You can grab the book, Seek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World at any place that sells books, but especially your local independent bookstore. Thank you so much for being here at Financial Feminist. We appreciate you sharing the show. If it impacted you, especially this episode, maybe this is a perfect opportunity to spark a conversation with somebody in your life about curiosity and about vulnerability and about bravery, and about just becoming a better, more connected society. Thank you so much for being here as always, and we’ll talk to you soon.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields. Associate producer Tamisha Grant. Marketing and Administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Kahlil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda Leffew, Masha Bachmetyeva, Kailyn Sprinkle, Sumaya Mulla-Carillo and Harvey Carlson. Research by Ariel Johnson. Audio Engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen-Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.
