Ever wish you could go back and give your younger self some honest, no-nonsense financial advice?
In this episode, we’re talking about the money lessons we all wish we’d learned sooner. Today I’m joined by Courtney Alev, Intuit Credit Karma’s Consumer Financial Advocate. Courtney helps shape Credit Karma’s products with real people in mind—empowering millions to know, grow, and protect their wealth. Her insights have been featured in everything from The New York Times to Marie Claire, and she’s basically your financial big sister: here to make money feel less overwhelming and help you build confidence with every dollar. Together, we’re diving into credit, debt, savings, and how to make smarter financial decisions that give you more freedom and less stress.
Key takeaways:
Money = Freedom, not fear
Courtney reminds listeners that mastering your money gives you freedom—freedom to make choices that align with your happiness. She frames money not as a measure of worth but as a tool for autonomy and joy.
Your financial path should reflect your values
Instead of chasing what others say you “should” want—like luxury goals or milestones—Courtney encourages aligning financial decisions with what truly fulfills you. This shift from “comparison” to “connection” helps you build a financial life that actually feels good.
Credit is your adulting GPA—treat it like it matters
Both Tori and Courtney stress the power of credit as a foundation for financial opportunity. From setting up autopay to keeping utilization low and avoiding unnecessary closures, Courtney’s advice shows that small, consistent actions build long-term results.
You can save and pay off debt—but know your priorities
Courtney argues for tackling high-interest debt first while keeping a small emergency fund as a safety net. The takeaway? Create a plan that balances financial progress with emotional peace of mind.
Mindfulness over shame in spending
Normalize the emotional side of money. Whether it’s “doom spending,” guilt after treating yourself, or fear of facing your debt, the key is awareness—not avoidance. Courtney’s tip: “The anticipation is worse than the reality.”
Talk about money—especially with friends
Breaking the taboo around money conversations helps reduce shame and build smarter habits. Whether it’s saying no to expensive bachelorette trips or setting FOMO boundaries, transparency and community make financial wellness sustainable.
Notable quotes
“Everyone’s starting somewhere. There’s no shame in where you are—only progress from here.”
“The anticipation is way worse than the reality of actually coming to terms with your finances.”
“It’s so easy to feel like money is something that’s happening to you, but once you actually know where you stand—you can start making choices instead of avoiding them.”
Episode at-a-glance
01:10 – Why Money = Freedom
02:05 – How to Define What You Actually Want (Not What You “Should” Want)
03:10 – Credit 101: Building Credit in Your 20s
04:00 – Easy Credit Score Tips That Actually Work
05:30 – Tori’s Favorite Credit Utilization Trick
06:30 – Should You Keep Old Credit Cards Open? (Yes—Here’s Why)
07:15 – Why Credit Cards Are Tools—Not Traps
08:00 – How to Pay Off Debt and Improve Your Credit Score
09:15 – The Great Debate: Save First or Pay Off Debt First?
10:45 – Why Women Need an F-Off Fund
12:00 – Money ≠ Math: Why It’s Really About Emotions
13:20 – Letting Go of Shame Around Debt & Spending
15:00 – Why Avoiding Your Money Makes It Scarier
16:30 – Are High-Yield Savings Accounts Still Worth It?
17:20 – High-Yield vs. Regular Savings: What’s the Difference?
18:40 – Mindful Spending 101: Stop the Doom-Spending Cycle
20:15 – How to Curb Impulse Shopping Habits
22:00 – Ask Yourself: “Why Do I Want This?” Before You Buy
23:10 – The “Would I Move This?” Trick for Spending Less on Stuff
24:10 – Boundaries, FOMO, and Saying No to Overspending
26:30 – How to Handle the Cost of Weddings and Friend Events
29:30 – Budgeting with Irregular Income (Freelancers, Creators, etc.)
31:20 – Understanding & Paying Off Student Loans
34:00 – Credit Card Debt vs. Student Loans: What to Tackle First
35:20 – Saving for Retirement While Paying Off Debt
36:15 – The Power of Compound Interest (Explained Simply)
37:30 – How to Start Investing — Even with $20 a Month
38:00 – Final Thoughts + Where to Find Credit Karma’s Free Tools
Thanks to Credit Karma for sponsoring this episode! Get personalized, judgment-free insights on how to pay off debt and make your money work harder for you with Intuit Credit Karma! Visit: https://www.creditkarma.com/lp/financialfeminist
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Meet Courtney
Courtney Alev is Credit Karma’s Consumer Financial Advocate. Courtney plays a key role in shaping Credit Karma’s products with the consumer at the center, helping members know, grow, and protect their wealth. Courtney’s expert insights, both personal and on behalf of Credit Karma, have been featured in everything from The Associated Press and The New York Times to Vogue Business and Marie Claire. Think of her as your financial big sister—here to make money feel less overwhelming and to help you feel more confident in navigating your finances.
Before joining the workforce, Courtney volunteered in the Peace Corps, working to increase the economic resilience of residents, especially women, in remote communities in Mozambique. This experience ignited her passion for helping people make financial progress wherever they are in life, and she’s been working to do so over her 17 year career.
What is Credit Karma?
Credit Karma is more than just free credit scores. It’s an AI-powered platform that helps you make sense of your money and manage your finances. They give you the tools and guidance to build credit, save money, and feel more confident about your financial decisions, so you can take clear steps towards your goals. Credit Karma is a trusted destination for over 140 million members.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
Hi, Financial Feminists. I sat down for a live conversation with Credit Karma to talk about all things I wish I learned about money sooner, and to answer your biggest questions about credit cards, debt, credit scores, and more. So special thanks to Credit Karma for sponsoring this episode. I have used and loved them for almost a decade, and they’re a fantastic resource for you all too. Head to herfirst100k.com/ffpod to get personalized, judgment-free insights on how to pay off debt and make your money work harder for you from Credit Karma. And we’ve got the link over there. Let’s get into it.
Hi, Financial Feminists. Welcome. I’m so excited to have you all. I am Tori. I’ve helped over 5 million women be better with money. And today we are live in the heart of New York City to talk with Courtney Alev, consumer advocate at Intuit Credit Karma. We’re talking all things money advice you wish you had taken sooner, credit, debt, savings, and more. So my first question for you, if someone took your lessons to heart, how could their life change?
Courtney Alev:
They would have more freedom. Freedom to be able to leave a bad situation, a toxic relationship, a toxic job, opportunities to be able to do more things that bring you joy, whatever that might be. And less stress freedom from worrying about money every single day and instead of seeing it as a tool that can really be applied to help you achieve your goals. And so that’s my goal for what we’re talking about today.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s my exact same goal too, so I love it.
Courtney Alev:
Perfect.
Tori Dunlap:
You mentioned a bit of this off mic, but tell me who you are and why this work is so important to you.
Courtney Alev:
Yeah. I am a consumer financial advocate at Credit Karma, so I get to spend my day trying to figure out how to build products that millions and millions of people use every single day to really make progress in their financial life. And progress is so personal. It’s whatever that day, that week, that month that they need. And so I am so inspired by the work that you do, Tori and out there, just really helping women especially come together to figure out how we can help each other make progress when it’s often a topic that isn’t talked about, it’s taboo, it’s kind of under the radar, and bringing that conversation to the forefront is what keeps me going every day.
Tori Dunlap:
One of the things you mentioned that I talk about a lot in my work is that personal finance is very personal, yet there are these certain metrics or these things we all want to do when it comes to finances. So my first dive in right in question is how do we determine the things that we actually want and our priorities for us versus just what we should want or what we should aspire to?
Courtney Alev:
It’s such a great question. One that I personally wrestled with probably for many years in my life, but it really to me comes down to values. I think there’s having your basic needs met and that’s going to look differently for different folks. But whether that’s housing, whether that’s safe transportation, whether that’s comfort for your family, those are kind of table stakes. But then past that, it becomes like how do I want to be spending my time? What gives me the feeling of a fulfilled life? And that’s looks so different to everyone and that’s both the beautiful thing about it, but also the hardest thing about it because everyone’s path is going to look a little bit different, but that’s why it’s so important to be having those conversations and taking that time to reflect on what you want.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Let’s talk about credit because I joke it’s like your adulting GPA.
Courtney Alev:
So true.
Tori Dunlap:
Of like, how well are we doing? And I think it’s one of many topics in personal finance that is so jargon heavy and seems like, I don’t know, I’ll try this and see what happens to my credit score and only after the impact. Do you realize if that worked or not?
Courtney Alev:
Totally.
Tori Dunlap:
Can you walk us through specifically if somebody’s in their twenties, how do they think about building credit?
Courtney Alev:
Totally. I love the idea of your adult GPA or financial GPA because it’s like, what are these numbers? What do they mean? Why is it going up or down? And it can feel very confusing, but I think especially for folks in their twenties and getting started, it’s just recognizing that credit, while it might be a little confusing or intimidating at first, is so important to really, really understand because it’s going to be that kind of backbone of your financial life. I remember when I was in my twenties, I was constantly surprised at how many things required a credit score, getting a cell phone bill, like renting an apartment. And so getting that off to a good start is so important. And the number one thing you can do is if you have a credit card or other credit alone, make sure you are making those payments on time. That is the foundation which everything is based off of.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I always think about on time and in full if you can.
Courtney Alev:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
Talk to me about some of the hacks for boosting your credit score. I have my secret hack and I’m sure you’re going to say it, but what are the easier ways that we can build the credit in addition to on time in full payments?
Courtney Alev:
Totally. I love the on time and in full kind of number one goal. There’s a lot of different hacks, there’s a lot of different information out there. I think it can become very overwhelming and complicated when you start diving in.
The couple of things that I would really recommend, I think getting a credit card and using it responsibly, that sounds very simple, but it’s so important. One thing I love to encourage folks to do, especially who are maybe newer to credit and maybe they’re intimidated of I have access to money, I don’t want to go into debt, I’m scared, is to just get that first card, put one recurring thing on it, put your Netflix on it, put your Spotify, whatever your tiny subscription of choice is, and set it on auto-pay. And then 12 months goes by, you’ve spent maybe a hundred dollars on that card, it’s paid off in full. You have that year of credit history. The other one that I think is really important, especially for newer to credit folks, if you’re like me, my first credit card had a $500 limit.
Tori Dunlap:
That was me, that was mine. My little Discover card. It had a record on it. Does anyone know what I’m talking about? I thought I was so cool.
Courtney Alev:
Yeah, I had a Wells Fargo one that had my picture, but this was many years ago. I’m not going to date myself completely, but it was so pixelated, it was just kind of random face.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, it’s like on a Costco card or whatever, your Costco membership.
Courtney Alev:
But I felt like it’s personalized to me. But that was a big one. I had to buy one thing and all of a sudden my credit utilization was super up. That’s when you’re using most of your credit that’s available to you and that can hit your credit. So the other hack that I really employed, especially in those early days, was paying off my credit card every five days, every seven days. It was only due every month. So there’s a lot of little things like that that you can start tweaking, but I love to hear your number one hack.
Tori Dunlap:
No, all of those are really smart. Mine is the credit utilization.
Courtney Alev:
Totally.
Tori Dunlap:
So like you said, it’s how much credit are you utilizing? So if you have a credit card with a line that’s $10,000 and you spend $3,000, you’re using 30%. If you can get it under 30% or really under like 10%, we’ve seen crazy increases in our community. I’ve seen personal increases of just you ask for a credit line increase and then you don’t use it. So you go to your credit card company and they all want you to spend more money. And so you go, “Hi, can I have a $15,000 credit line?” And of course they’ll be like, yes, because we want you to spend more money with us. And then you just don’t use it. And suddenly that utilization rate is way lower even though you’re doing your normal spending.
Courtney Alev:
Exactly. Another one that I learned too late in my twenties was that if you have a card and you’re not using it anymore, maybe I think this has gotten a little bit easier, but I used to go into the mall and be like, Hey, do you want 20% off your whatever old store? Sure, I’ll open up a credit card and then you stop using it and you close it. But that credit limit that you might have on those cards was actually contributing towards that-
Tori Dunlap:
That credit length of history. Yeah.
Courtney Alev:
So obviously we never want anyone, including myself to keep a card open if you’re tempted by it or not going to use it responsibly, but it’s something to be actually really thoughtful of and that’s something that no, I wish someone had told me earlier.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I’m a big proponent of credit cards. If anybody follows me, if anybody’s listening, they know I love credit cards. But I think it’s a tool, it’s a knife. Knifes can make you dinner and they can also send you to the hospital. It’s like if misused, it will not work well for you. And it’s the same thing with credit cards. If you do not feel like you can manage them responsibly, they might not be the tool for you. However, if you use them correctly, not only are you going to get free stuff with points and miles, but you also get so much protection that you might not have with a debit card. And I think that’s my favorite part is my phone got stolen a couple of years ago when I was in London and I got a free phone because I had cell phone insurance with my credit card. So there’s so much there.
Courtney Alev:
Exactly. I think back to maybe my mid-twenties and getting that credit card signup bonus and getting an international flight for free and how mind-blowing that was. Right. And so it’s awesome seeing people taking advantage of that.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, the first time I turned left on a plane when you turn left, like business class. And it was taxes and fees. It was so nice. It was like a $14,000 ticket and I got it for a couple hundred dollars.
Courtney Alev:
Did you stare to the right and think maybe if you all worked a little harder?
Tori Dunlap:
I was like, maybe if you didn’t follow Her First $100K you’re turning to the right.
Courtney Alev:
There you go. You should have that on the little curtain that they close.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s so funny.
Courtney Alev:
Your Instagram handle.
Tori Dunlap:
Should have it tattooed on my forehead. Talk to me about the best strategies for paying down debt while improving your credit. Can we do both at the same time?
Courtney Alev:
You absolutely can. And they’re so tied together. The first thing you want to do. And I have had so many friends over the years, both just in my personal life and then also knowing what I do for work, I’ve been like, I don’t want to know. I’m going to look like I’m going to be an ostrich. So it’s really hard to do anything unless you know where you stand. So if you’re trying to either improve your credit or pay down debt, figure out what you owe. That’s the number one thing that you want to do. And then figuring out how much you can throw towards that debt.
Like you mentioned, making sure that you’re always paying your bill on time, ideally in full, if you’re carrying a debt, you’re probably not. And then looking at your budget to be like, what’s the most amount of money I can throw towards this? Making sure to focus on that higher interest debt, like a credit card over a student loan depending on your specific financial situation. And you should start to see as you’re paying down that balance, that utilization that we’re just talking about going down, which is going to then increase your credit score. So it’s a very exciting cycle once you can hop on it where you’re both seeing your debt numbers go down and your credit score numbers go up.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, that’s super helpful. One of the biggest questions I get that is a little controversial. I know I’m ready. Controversial. Yeah, it’s going to be so spicy everybody. Should you save first or pay off debt first? That’s the crazy question. Personal finance is personal. And then I have a few hard and fast rules. So should we say first or pay off debt?
Courtney Alev:
Love the question. I have gone to spicy debates about exactly this several times in my life.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that this counts as spicy for us financial nerds. We’re like, oh, how many hours do you have? Let’s debate it.
Courtney Alev:
Don’t get me started on avalanche versus snowball. Can you go back to that?
Tori Dunlap:
So say first or pay off debt.
Courtney Alev:
So I am personally a proponent of paying down your debt first, but there is-
Tori Dunlap:
Oh.
Courtney Alev:
But wait for it. There’s a caveat.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s not what I thought you were going to say. We’re literally going to have to debate this the rest of the episode. No, go ahead.
Courtney Alev:
No, there’s the great thing about personal finance being personal is that there’s no one rate path. So to caveat my response, I would always recommend that people save a little bit of a cash cushion. Even with debt, it’s helpful both for a mental and emotional wind. I have $500 in the bank, I have a thousand dollars in the bank. It is so exciting when you save not just your first 100K, but maybe your first one 1K, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Courtney Alev:
And so I think that’s really important. But one trap I see people fall into all the time is they have that emotional attachment to the $5,000 in their savings, but they’re carrying $10,000 of debt on their credit cards and they’re paying 20% interest and they’re actually losing so much money, but they’re so proud and so tied to that 5,000, which I understand it’s an emotional commitment, but those are the situations where I really like to explore with people like, hey, maybe we could put some more of that towards that debt. My spicy take is really specific to high interest debt and holding cash, but gets obviously more complicated when you’re looking at things like a mortgage or student loans or something like that.
Tori Dunlap:
And when we’re talking about high interest debt, it’s usually credit cards, right? We’re looking at 18, 20, 30% interest as opposed to a mortgage, which as of this recording is about seven-ish percent. So I am savings first for a couple reasons. One is that if an emergency happens, I need you to have something in the bank so you’re not going into debt trying to pay for an emergency. The second thing is speaking of the mental health, I think going to bed at night knowing you have something in savings, if you got laid off or something happened tomorrow morning, a completely hit the fan, you’re going to be okay.
And then the third thing, because we coach primarily women, I need you to have an F-off fund. I need you to have enough money that if you get sexually harassed at work, if you realize actually I don’t want to live with this partner anymore. I’ve had friends who move into apartment and they’re like, this is not a safe place to live. I need you to have enough money to get out. But I also think there is that tension between I know I need savings, but also this debt’s eating away and it’s hard. It’s hard to navigate both of those.
Courtney Alev:
Totally. And I love that just that concept of that emotional fail-safe. I want everybody, especially women, to have that F off fund and be comfortable with it. I do think it’s a really interesting example of just how dynamic and emotional money is. I love this topic for exactly that reason. Everyone’s going to have a different perspective. I completely agree that having that emergency fund, that savings to be escape is important. But I do challenge people when it’s like, I have $12,000 in cash and I have $12,000 in the credit card. Let’s talk about what that balance is and is that the right amount of money to be paying in interest? But again, it’s different for everybody.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Can I do an audience Q&A really quick where you raise your hand for me? Do you believe that you have to be good at math to be good with money? Everybody’s shaking their head. I’m shocked. That’s the common thing we hear a lot is money is about numbers. And especially for women, it’s about being good at math or being good at numbers or being good at spreadsheets. And I love getting freaky in the spreadsheets, but I majored in theater and communications in college. It is such an emotional thing and I think that’s why women are better with money when we actually learn to manage it. And I think there’s so much focus on, yeah, what is the numbers? What is the compound interest? And I’m like, no, everything’s an emotional choice.
Whether it’s taking on debt and feeling the shame around debt or yeah, I’m going to Taylor Swift and I’m spending this money, I feel so excited called out me. Yeah, truly I was there too. I was there when she announced 1989 Taylor’s version. That was a big day. You, it’s so emotional and I think that we forget that often because we get caught up in the numbers. So can we talk about, we’re talking about debt and we’re talking about credit. There’s so much shame and guilt attached with both of those. How do we work through those emotions in a productive way as opposed to feeling bad every time we go spend money even on things we love.
Courtney Alev:
I think the first thing is just recognizing that we’re not alone.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Courtney Alev:
It’s such an individual journey. I know I felt plenty of shame, whether it’s finances or others in my life. And then you look up and you look around, you’re like, I am not alone. Other people are going through this. Just seeing what you’re doing with your community and just having people look around and say, we can talk about these things. We can actually connect and understand what’s going on and realize that we’re in it together. Even we’re on our own individual personal financial paths is really interesting. And one of the trends that’s come up recently in the personal finance space, we hear about things like doom spending, which I just think is one of the funniest and most relatable things.
Tori Dunlap:
Recession indicator.
Courtney Alev:
Exactly. But of course we want a little treat, right? You look aside, it feels like everything’s on fire. I need that matcha latte. Get off my back. But I think just figuring out how to be mindful and also just taking those moments to reflect on is this something that really is going to make me feel better? Is this just something that in that moment I am enjoying but might regret later? So bringing up that mindfulness, as cheesy as it sounds, has such an important role to play in our financial journeys.
Tori Dunlap:
I always say that nothing tastes worse than a pina colada on the beach with a side of guilt.
Courtney Alev:
And it’s so true.
Tori Dunlap:
If you’re going to spend money on something that you really love, I want you to never feel guilty about that. And I think so many people, ostrich, which is the same term I use, which is bury their head in the sand, act like their problems don’t exist. And the word budget, it’s like a dirty word. It’s like, I don’t want to be restricted. And I’m like, no, your budget is your gas gauge in your car so you know how far you can drive. And so many people just start driving around without knowing what’s going on, and then they end up broken down on the side of the road at 2:00 AM without cell service. And that’s what happens when you don’t look at your money.
And so I want your spending to be something that feels so good the entire time, not, oh, I got my credit card bill back and I can’t actually afford it. Because then that beautiful experience, whatever you spent your money on, is now tainted.
Courtney Alev:
Yes. And a couple of my ostrich friends who I refer to with love, the anticipation is way worse than the reality of actually coming to terms about it.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Courtney Alev:
It’s the sitting around. And I know what it’s like. I know I just got to send that one email before I go to bed and three hours later I still haven’t sent the email. And then the email takes two minutes to send. You’re like, why didn’t I just send it? Right? That first step of anything that you’re progressing on, especially something that feels so hard and emotional is the hardest part. But everyone, even people I know had six figures of debt. It’s very scary. There’s an empowerment to know this is where I stand and where I have a starting point instead of feeling like it’s something that’s happening to you out in the ether.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, it’s like a horror movie. It is worse when you don’t know what the monster looks like, because then you dream the worst, scariest thing in your head as opposed to This is it. I’ll figure it out. I’ll manage it.
Courtney Alev:
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap:
As opposed to, yeah, what’s under your bed or in your closet. Okay. I talk about high yield savings accounts all the time.
Courtney Alev:
I love it.
Tori Dunlap:
I love them. They’re my favorite. Again, speaking of tattoo on my forehead. Interest rates are going down though.
Courtney Alev:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Are high yield savings accounts still worth it?
Courtney Alev:
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you. I think so too.
Courtney Alev:
Did I pass the test? I absolutely agree. High yield savings accounts are such a wonderful tool. And I’m always surprised, but also excited for the opportunity when I find out someone doesn’t have one. This is a time to make a really important step. Even if interest rates are lower than they might’ve been X number of months or years ago, that is still passive income or interest that you’re earning on your money. And you’re still building that savings, which we just talked about is so important, especially for women.
You’re still building that in a place where you can easily access it and it’s insured and that is the best place to be keeping that emergency fund or that F-off fund or whatever you want to call it for yourself. And so regardless of the interest rate, open one if you don’t have one. And then also remember that interest rates, if you look over history, they go up and down. So you’re going to see those fluctuations. It’s better to be building that savings habit now, regardless of what your interest rate is.
Tori Dunlap:
For somebody who might not know what is the difference between a high yield savings account and your normal savings account?
Courtney Alev:
A high yield savings account has much higher interest than your normal savings account. Sometimes to a shocking degree, 10X, 20X, depending on the day. And you can often find them offered through online banks that don’t have a physical presence that enables them to give you that higher interest rate by using lower costs. But a lot of people find that that’s fine. You might not need to actually go into a bank branch, but generally they’re easy to open. You can open with one, maybe not one click, but a couple of clicks. I’m sure you have some recommendations.
Tori Dunlap:
We do, on our website.
Courtney Alev:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you.
Courtney Alev:
You’re welcome. Little pitch. But it’s so easy and it’s one of the most simple, I think personal finance recommendations you can give is everyone could use one.
Tori Dunlap:
And it’s a quick win. And I always joke, it’s the one personal finance thing that isn’t too good to be true.
Courtney Alev:
Totally.
Tori Dunlap:
You’re like, what’s the catch? And I’m like, there really is no catch. And you work really hard for your money. Your money should work just as hard. And I think that’s the perfect side. Yeah. Okay. So you’ve talked about doom spending. There’s so much pressure always to, whether it’s keeping up with the Joneses, but also social media now is just like how do we consume and how do we TikTok shop and how do we, there’s temptation to spend at all hours of the day from our phone that’s in our pocket. So how do we determine, you were mentioning how do we find the things that actually are going to feel good that aren’t just quick dopamine hits?
Courtney Alev:
Yes. I am a self-professed clicker on Instagram ads that I’ve really been trying to work. Craziest thing you bought, what’s the craziest thing you bought? Oh, probably way too many dog bandanas. I only have one dog. She could only wear so many at once.
Tori Dunlap:
Your dog’s covered in bandana.
Courtney Alev:
I know.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s not even a dog, it’s just a bandana.
Courtney Alev:
We’re going to have a bandana wall for the dog.
Tori Dunlap:
Mine was wrinkle reducing stickers.
Courtney Alev:
Oh, you got those? I resisted.
Tori Dunlap:
2020.
Courtney Alev:
Did they work?
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah, I could not control anything in COVID. And that was like, I can control my wrinkles, I can control my elevens right here and while I’m home-
Courtney Alev:
Well, you look great.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you. Wasn’t fishing. I was fishing a little bit. No, that was the stupidest thing I ever bought.
Courtney Alev:
I think I was telling someone of this earlier, one of the funniest things for me that I get targeted with is they try to prey on your insecurities. Do you want to be more fashionable? Do you want to be more successful at work? And that’s what you see. And they have a lot of data, billions of us. And somehow the algorithm thinks that I want to be an IT girl. I want to be clear, this is nothing I have ever expressed interest in being, but I’d be like, you need the IT girl phone case and the IT girl watch and it girl necklace, I get off my internet. And so I think you’ve just said it girl into your phone lot.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, no.
Courtney Alev:
Hopefully everyone’s on airplane mode.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s so funny.
Courtney Alev:
So I think for me a couple, it’s so easy and they’re getting smarter and smarter and it’s fun to go on TikTok, it’s fun to go on Instagram to a point. But the couple of techniques that I use and I recommend one, just add a little friction to the process. It is crazy. I think one time I woke up like, oh, I ordered that. It’s like one click, like Apple Pay, it got sent to me. Don’t do that. So remove those saved addresses, remove the saved credit card information. Things like that can make a big difference.
And then my other personal favorite thing that I do is I’m a big user of Apple Notes on my phone and my laptop and I have a list of things I want but probably don’t need. And so if I’m seeing something out in the wild, I’ll write it down like it girl phone case, dog bandana. And then I tell myself to wait X amount of time. I love the month even just try a week even noticed. And I work in personal finance, I’m thinking this all the time and I still have done so many things where I bought that thing and a week later I’m like, why did I buy the thing?
Tori Dunlap:
Or the box gets delivered and you’re like, I could not tell you what’s in that box.
Courtney Alev:
Exactly. There’s like five different copies of The Life of a Showgirl waiting for me at home in San Francisco.
Tori Dunlap:
I respect the game.
Courtney Alev:
I give those out to my Swifty friends. But I’m often surprised that even in a day or two days, like, oh, I really don’t actually need or want that thing. And so try it. It’s very rare that you see some ad and it’s gone forever. Never to be found again a week later. That’s something that’s been really helpful for me I recommend.
Tori Dunlap:
I do the same. And I think that’s such a helpful tip because just giving yourself time, even 48 hours, think it over. You probably will not remember it in 48 hours. And if you do, that means you really want it. So great. My other favorite one, it’s a little woo woo, but it’s so helpful is just ask yourself, what is this serving?
If I’m buying this thing, why am I buying this thing? And if the answer truly is to make myself feel better right now, maybe that will make you feel better. But maybe there’s an alternative choice. Maybe you do need to just go on a walk. Maybe you need to cry in the bathtub. There is other options. It ends up being a vice in that way, just like you might reach for alcohol or something. It’s like ask yourself why do I want this thing and how is it going to make me feel not just right now, but when potentially the guilt creeps in.
Courtney Alev:
Totally.
Tori Dunlap:
And I love spending money. I’m not the financial expert. I’m not a regular mom. I’m a cool mom. I am going to tell you that you can spend money, but I don’t want you spending your hard-earned money on things you don’t give a shit about, because that’s not helpful.
Courtney Alev:
One of the things I was just thinking about with that was I might once in a while choose something from that list and get, but the thing I asked myself is if I was moving next week, would I bring this thing with me?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, that’s good.
Courtney Alev:
That sounds very silly. I’ve been living in my current condo in San Francisco for several years. You just can accumulate stuff.
Tori Dunlap:
As someone who just moved.
Courtney Alev:
Yes. And so when you moved, I would love to know that process for you. I realized there’s so many things. Would I cart this item to another place? Do I need 35 different coffee mugs from coffee shops?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, I got rid of a bunch.
Courtney Alev:
Exactly. So that is also something where if in that moment even a part of me is like, I’m not sure I would move this item I have not yet bought. I probably don’t need to buy that thing.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Does anybody have a mom who is like, you might need it later. I have a mom, but she’s like, it’s the John Millennial. It can be a sleep shirt. Of course it’s way too big. It doesn’t fit. But she’s like, oh, you’re going to need it. And I think it was Marie Kondo who was like, if it’s under $20, you can buy it again if you truly need it. And so I get rid of stuff all the time. Now I’m like, again, if I need it in three years, I’ll buy it again.
Courtney Alev:
I have not spicy, but whatever the right adjective follow up to that. I love the Marie Kondo method of sparking joy. I also heard about something called the poop test. Has anyone heard about this?
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, that if it had poop on it, would you rub it off?
Courtney Alev:
Would you keep it? Would you clean it or you throw it away? And I swear that is more useful than a lot of things spark joy when you’re like eh or nothing. And you’re like, I would throw most of these things away. Can use that one too.
Tori Dunlap:
I don’t know if this story is Intuit Credit Karma approved, but I did once drop my phone into a port-a-potty.
Courtney Alev:
No. What’d you do?
Tori Dunlap:
And I dug it out. It was on top. And then I disinfected everything 17 times. I’m sorry, I was broke. I needed the phone.
Courtney Alev:
And you lived to tell the tale.
Tori Dunlap:
I lived to tell the tale. Everybody’s like, oh, I shook her hand before. Fuck.
Courtney Alev:
I was at a music festival this weekend and anytime there was a bathroom break, people were like you hold everything.
Tori Dunlap:
Exactly. Yeah, I will never do it again.
Courtney Alev:
No.
Tori Dunlap:
I will never put it in a pocket. Everything’s secured. When we’re talking about, this is a hard pivot. I’m like, how do I pivot out of this very horrible confession.
Courtney Alev:
It’s a relatable story.
Tori Dunlap:
When we think about the outside pressure be on social media when your friend’s like, Hey, come to my bachelorette party and spend $5,000 or come out to dinner for the first time this week. How do you set boundaries while still getting to see your friends?
Courtney Alev:
Yeah, FOMO spending is so real. I think the first thing I’d say is it’s okay to be conflicted about these things. To your point earlier, and I’m always saying I always want to spend my money. My best use of spending my money is on experiences with people I love.
But there are a lot of opportunities to spend money on experiences with people you love and we should all be so lucky. But it’s also you have to be mindful. And so I think the couple things that I’d say in this situation have said to myself is understand how much do you actually have to spend? And that’s why going back to that, the budget, the B word or just knowing where you stand is so important. So like, hey, yeah, I can probably swing that a hundred dollars concert or actually every single cent needs to go towards debt, pay down. It’s like knowing where stand is really important.
And I think the other thing that’s really important is just doing what we’re doing right now and talking about it. Because it can be so hard if your friend’s like, let’s do this thing together and you’re in your own head. What’s this going to do? Am I going to go into credit card debt? Am I going to be able to do this? Is she going to hate me forever? Blah, blah, blah. Have the conversation.
Most people have had money challenges at some point or at least know somebody who does. And you might find that maybe there’s another great plan that could be cheaper where you could still catch up and enjoy that. And so I think knowing what you can spend and having that idea and then also having the conversation can really help you at least navigate those emotional decisions a little bit more easily.
Tori Dunlap:
And I think as we gear up for the holidays too, it is one of those things, holidays feel very high pressure of, I need to spend on activities and I need to buy people the perfect gift. And if you’re going into credit card debt to prove to somebody how much you love them, that’s just really hard. So we have so many questions both from you all and from our Instagram at her first hundred K. So a dilemma around weddings, and I kind of led into this, it is never ending, especially if you’re a woman. It’s the engagement party, it’s the shower, it’s the bachelorette, it’s the wedding, it’s the wedding weekend. Now weddings are a week long affair. So how do we say yes to something? How do we determine what we can afford?
Courtney Alev:
Yeah, the wedding topic, we could go all day on this. It’s the perfect combination of things where it’s something fun, there’s FOMO, there’s a relationship at stake with a friend and there’s money at stake and it’s a one-time thing. So it’s not like the gift-
Tori Dunlap:
Hopefully.
Courtney Alev:
Well actually that’s true.
Tori Dunlap:
Hopefully it’s a one-time thing.
Courtney Alev:
I’m getting to the second weddings, they’re much smaller. But it’s so hard. So I think the first thing is recognizing this is really hard. In my mid-twenties I remember so crystal clear that one of my friends wasn’t even an expensive situation, but there was a shower, there was a bachelorette party, there was something else, there was actual wedding. And I spent a couple of thousand dollars and I did not have a couple thousand dollars to spend, but at the time I went into credit card debt and I never even thought about, hey, maybe we could talk about this. So I love that people are talking about it. I think for me, the recommendation I give in have used myself is one, this is all coming back to knowing where you stand, how much money do you have to spend on it, and then two reflect which of these events if you need to pick, is going to be the most meaningful. And that’s going to be different for everybody.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that. That’s so smart.
Courtney Alev:
Sometimes your friend really wants you at the wedding, even if it’s 200 people and you’re just going to be like, “Hey Tori,” in the corner, they want you there. And maybe in another situation it’s like, I would actually really rather you be at my bachelorette party because you’re one of my best friends and we can spend quality time together. But being open about I might need to make a choice.
And then as much as you feel comfortable with involving your friends in that decision or just simply saying, “I wish I could celebrate with you, but I can’t. I’d love to see you next time you’re in the city.” People who are truly your friends will get it. They will be disappointed because they love you. And of course you want the people you love at your events, but it is, I think, not the relationship ender that people make it out on. If you spend too much time on wedding shaming on Reddit, you’ll probably see that it can in fact be that.
Tori Dunlap:
Am I the asshole?
Courtney Alev:
Exactly. Plenty of internet drama. But your real friends will know and understand and want you to make good decisions. And so involve them in that conversation.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, you gave the exact advice I would give. I think all of that is so important. And also just level setting expectations. We’re so nervous as a culture to talk about money because it feels really scary and especially when it is such, this is your big day and there’s so much pressure already and it’s just like, hi, I want to support you. I can’t afford to in this way, so let’s figure out how I can show up for you in a way that makes sense for both of us. I think that’s the conversation you have to have because I don’t want you feeling resentful. I don’t want there being, again, we want to have a joyous occasion where no one’s mad at anybody.
Courtney Alev:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. What is the best way to budget and plan for big financial goals when your income isn’t consistent month to month?
Courtney Alev:
This one is so hard. I have so much empathy. I’ve been there. There’s so many people out there who have irregular income and it makes it so difficult. And I know I’m probably a broke record, but just knowing what’s coming in. One thing I like to suggest, not a golden rule for everybody, as it is personal. Look at the last however many months you’ve got. Maybe it’s 6, 12, 18. Figure out what you’re seeing. Look at that average, maybe haircut it a little bit just to be safe. There’s going to be months that are higher or lower.
And then build a budget around that and then have anything that comes in after that be money that you can put towards savings. And then those savings could be potentially something that you could draw from if you do have an emergency month, a really, really low month. But I think it’s always really important to budget for, I don’t want to say the worst case situation because the worst case situation for income is probably $0 or more debt. But make sure you are being conservative in how you’re planning around your monthly required expenses. Things like your rent, your groceries, your gas, and then be very, very, very cognizant of anything beyond that. So that’s the first starting point I recommend for folks. What about you?
Tori Dunlap:
I think that’s great. Yeah. I talk about everybody should know their ramen noodle number.
Courtney Alev:
Love that.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s the bare amount of money you need to make in order to get by. So what is your rent? What are your groceries? What’s your insurance? What’s daycare cost? Second mortgage for most people. But that’s the number you need to have in mind so that if you’re a freelancer, if you’re a tipped worker, if your income is very volatile, you know okay, this is the bare amount of money I need to be making. And if you’re a business owner that is after taxes. So you’ve taken 30% to Uncle Sam at least. And then you figured out, okay, what does this actually look like for me?
Courtney Alev:
And that whole living below your means at any income level is what’s going to build wealth. And so I think there’s an opportunity here to, if you’re focusing on that ramen noodle number and have anything beyond that going generally into savings account, you might look up a few months from now like, wow, I didn’t realize I would be able to actually be saving this money. And so it’s a great way to start building those habits of figuring out what you really need and then being intentional, like we were talking about those splurges beyond that.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, we can’t not talk about student loans. How do we pay it off? How do we manage some student loan balances that are more mild, maybe a couple thousand dollars. But I have followers, it’s $100,000 of student loans. How do we work to manage that? What’s the first step?
Courtney Alev:
I know there’s a lot of student loan anxiety right now. Always the cost of education has been high, but especially with some of the changes over recent years, the first thing you need to do, understand what your options are. Calling your loan servicer is a great option. Again, I know a lot of us don’t like picking up the phone. We’d rather else walking into the ocean. Yes, walking into the river, exactly. But really understand, get in touch with your loan servicer. This is the first bringing the ostrich head out of the sand.
And I’m sure there’s repayment or different payment plans available to you. There probably are. There often are based on if your income is lower than you might feel like you need to have to be able to pay. I’ve heard for folks with multiple thousand dollar a month payments, start there. That’s a great way to figure out what your options are. And then once you know what those are, then you can come back and go back to that budget and that ramen noodle number to be like, how am I going to make sure each month that I’m putting aside money at the beginning of the month to make those payments? You do not want to ignore them. Back to our earlier conversation about credit scores, we do see on our platform at Credit Karma that there are many folks even who start out with great credit scores, who went delinquent on their student loans for many life reasons that might be happening, and saw a really big impact on their score. So knowing what your options are is really important.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. And I think with debt of all kinds, not all debt is the same. So I think a lot of people think about, okay, credit card debt and student loan debt and a mortgage, all of it is debt. And I’m like, debt is very different depending on the interest rate, depending on how the interest accrues credit cards, the interest rate is really high. The interest compounds and the interest compounds daily. That is very unique for debt. And so you have to kind of prioritize and think of all of your debt slightly different as opposed to lumping it all together, especially when you’re trying to piecemeal it to get a plan together to pay it off.
Courtney Alev:
Right. And with the credit card debt, I love that you called that out because it is just wild how quickly it can balloon. And we talk a lot about make sure you pay off that high interest credit card debt first. The other thing I just want people to remember is I think it can also be easy to just be focusing on the credit card debt and maybe forget about a student loan payment or something else. And you still want to make sure you’re making the minimum required payments on any other debt or a mortgage if you happen to have one, something like that to make sure you’re maintaining that positive credit history. But doing anything you can to reduce credit card debt is going to be really helpful for your financial life.
Tori Dunlap:
I can’t believe I’ve gone this long without talking about investing.
Courtney Alev:
Oh, great.
Tori Dunlap:
Credit cards and investing are my two favorite personal finance topics.
Courtney Alev:
Perfect. Me too.
Tori Dunlap:
I think we know the stats, especially around women. We make less because of the pay gap, but we also wait to invest compared to men or don’t invest at all because we think it’s too risky or we think it’s so jargon heavy that you’re worried about making the wrong choice. So how do you think about saving for retirement while also prioritizing paying off debt?
Courtney Alev:
This is the question. I think that we could probably debate this for hours and how do I make what’s the right hierarchy of my financial needs? And I think with retirement, it’s really interesting because it might feel so far away, but compound interest is just one of the most incredible concepts to learn in personal finance. I wish I had put my $5 a month allowance when I was 10 into the S&P 500.
Tori Dunlap:
And now you could afford a house.
Courtney Alev:
I know, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Have you seen those memes that it’s like, oh, I was born in ’94, if I started in ’95, right? It’s like, yeah.
Courtney Alev:
But then my cheesy thing would be like, that would be the best time. The second-best time is today. Because hopefully we’re all going to get older and you’re going to be there. And so if you have that time, any money that you can be investing has that opportunity to grow.
And so my number one encouragement is figure out how to start, even if it’s just with a little bit of money. I know it feels impossible if you’re 25 to think about retiring, especially just with that time horizon. It’s very intimidating. But building that habit now, even if you don’t have a high salary, that’s a habit that you can build upon. I love the idea of paying yourself first, even if it’s $20 a month, have that go into your 401k, Have that go into a robo-advisor and just set it and forget it.
And being able to start seeing those funds grow is one of the most exciting things, honestly, that I think you can experience when comes to investing. And the last thing I would say there is, I know 401k matches are not always available unfortunately, but if you do have one available, even if you’re juggling other financial priorities, that’s really one of the closest things to free money that you’re going to get in today’s day and age. And so making sure you take advantage of that and allowing it to continue compound is so important.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. My last question for you, and this is so helpful, so thank you. When you think about having knowledge around money, what does that mean for someone who is struggling with their personal finances? How can they invest in their own education around money?
Courtney Alev:
It is so empowering to know what to do with your money. And it can feel so intimidating and scary to even start. But just being able to come together, listening to these conversations, picking up a book and saying what are just the main things that I can be doing is so important and will really help set you up for the rest of your life.
And I think the number one thing I tell people is everyone’s starting somewhere and progress is so personal. And so treat yourself with grace. Understand where you are. Know that no matter what, there’s hundreds, thousands, millions of people who have been exactly where you are. And take this newfound information, bring it to your friends, bring it to people, be having those conversations in your spaces, and that way we can all be lifting each other up a little every single day and hopefully working towards a brighter financial future.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Please plug away. Tell us where people can find out more about Credit Karma, all of the tools and resources. And I’ve been using, this is not just because I’m here. I’ve been using Credit Karma for 10 years. It’s so helpful and it’s so beneficial to see those numbers and see what’s going on. So plug away my friend.
Courtney Alev:
Thank you. You can download the Credit Karma mobile app or check us out at creditkarma.com.
Tori Dunlap:
I love it. Thank you all for being here. Thank you for listening, and we’ll talk to you soon.
Courtney Alev:
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much to Courtney Alev for joining us and to Credit Karma for sponsoring this episode and the live podcast event. It was truly so nice. I got to meet a bunch of the people in the audience. It was just gorgeous. It was in one of my favorite spots in the city with a sweeping view of the rivers and the bridges and it was a great event. So thank you to Credit Karma for sponsoring this episode and for supporting financial feminists in our company. It means the world to us. And again, you can head on over to herfirs100k.com/ffpod to get personalized judgment free insights on how to pay off debt and make your money work harder for you from Credit Karma. Thank you as always for being here, Financial Feminists. I’ll see you soon. Bye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist a Her First $100K podcast. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Research by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Daryl Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Meghan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
