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In a world still largely controlled by traditional gender roles, there are endless conversations about how that affects dating and finances between partners.
In this special episode, we share Tori’s interview with the Man Enough podcast, where she and hosts Liz Plank, Justin Baldoni, and Jamey Heath dive into how these traditional views of masculinity and femininity still affect us today. This fantastic conversation touches on everything from who pays on dates to what it’s like dating as a financially independent woman to advocating for yourself at work.
We’re so grateful to the entire team at Man Enough for letting us share this incredible conversation with our audience.
What you’ll learn:
Overcoming the fear of “taboo” money conversations
The pressure put on men from a young age to provide and succeed and the long-term effects of this narrative
Why a man (or any partner) is not a financial plan
Man Enough’s Links:
Tori Dunlap (00:00:10):
Happy Holidays Financial Feminist. We have a special episode for you today, a little different. We’re actually sharing the audio from my time on The Man Enough podcast. The Man Enough Podcast is hosted by the incredible Justin Baldoni, who’s a previous guest on the show, one of my personal idols, Liz Plank and Jamey Heath, who was just so thoughtful during this episode and gave us a lot of space to have a lot of different conversations.
We dive into how gender plays into finances, especially when it comes to romantic relationships. I even talk a bit about my recent dating history and my dating experience and a lot of the things we ended up wanting to cover in this episode in a beautiful way, that conversation just kind of shifted organically into talking about money and how it affects and influences our relationships in our life, as well as the gender discrimination and the expectations we have for women versus men.
And just as a little reminder, we’re taking a break for the next few weeks, except we will have a very special episode dropping Tuesday, December 27th, which is our book launch day, Financial Feminist Overcome the Patriarchies Bullshit to Master Your Money and Build A Life You Love is my book that’s coming out and it’ll officially be on sale in stores on that day. You can also pre order if you haven’t already, at herfirst100k.com/book. Head to your favorite local bookstore on December 27th to grab a copy. Otherwise, I’m so excited to share this episode with you. And thanks to The Man Enough team for allowing us to share it. Let’s go ahead and get into it.
Jamey Heath (00:01:39):
Coming up on Man Enough.
Tori Dunlap (00:01:41):
The interlocking perspective of dictating that boys or men have to be providers becomes a double edged sword a hundred percent.
Liz Plank (00:01:47):
A hundred percent.
Justin Baldoni (00:01:47):
A hundred percent.
Tori Dunlap (00:01:49):
But when a woman has the audacity to want to pursue wealth, well we weaponize that altruism that we’ve ingrained in her since day one. Why aren’t you donating more? Why aren’t you asking for more money? You should just be grateful.
Being man enough. What does that mean? It’s really manly to mess up, admit you’re wrong and then grow. I couldn’t accept that I was evil, so maybe I’m broken, but those broken things could be corrected. Intimacy between a father and a son is me just wanting to put my head in your lap. And I love you, so. You haven’t called me a benevolent sexist, but my experience is women are better. Even if it’s a positive, it’s still not equality. I don’t blame men for that, I just blame the system. This is Man Enough.
Justin Baldoni (00:02:42):
Hello and welcome to the Man Enough podcast, no, you don’t need to tie that part.
Liz Plank (00:02:45):
No, we like it open.
Justin Baldoni (00:02:47):
I think it looks beautiful.
Liz Plank (00:02:48):
This is my hot girl Summer. I’m getting a little slutty. I’m getting a little slutty.
Justin Baldoni (00:02:53):
A little closer to the little part of the mic.
Liz Plank (00:02:53):
Can we say that?
Jamey Heath (00:02:54):
Did you say slutty?
Liz Plank strong> (00:02:55):
Jamey Heath (00:02:55):
Slutty. Just because you are-
Liz Plank (00:02:57):
It’s a joke-
Jamey Heath (00:02:58):
No, no, but would people say such a thing? Because you’re-
Liz Plank (00:03:00):
Well, because you have a button, right? It’s like, oh-
Jamey Heath (00:03:02):
Are you allowed to say it?
Liz Plank (00:03:02):
You missed a button, it’s a way to be like you’re-
Jamey Heath (00:03:05):
Is the cancel meter up yet? Do we have that?
Liz Plank (00:03:07):
Yeah, we’re on our way to getting canceled. We’re counting down the days until we get canceled.
Justin Baldoni (00:03:12):
It’s one of Liz’s goals this season.
Liz Plank (00:03:14):
Yeah. I want to have no income. So-
Justin Baldoni (00:03:17):
Liz Plank (00:03:21):
Speaking of income, this is a special episode and you came up with the theme, which is the original intention-
Justin Baldoni (00:03:27):
This is a special episode. Thank you Tori Dunlap for coming on the show because you were going to help make Liz Plank a Millionaire.
Tori Dunlap (00:03:36):
Jamey Heath (00:03:37):
Are you up for the task?
Tori Dunlap (00:03:38):
It sounds difficult, but we got it.
Liz Plank (00:03:40):
In a recession.
Jamey Heath (00:03:42):
Amazing. So we have a guest with us that we really want to talk to and learn about. Tell it who she is.
Liz Plank (00:03:50):
Tori Dunlap, I’ve been following her for a very long time. I mean, I don’t know whose feed you’re not popping on. You know what I mean? I feel like you’re reaching everybody with a very, very unique, very powerful message about being financially independent and empowered, particularly if you’re a woman. And you have all kinds of very incredible ideas about it. You had a goal of saving 100K before the age of 25. You have far exceeded that goal. And we are going to talk about how you got there and talk about how finance affects relationships and dating and feminism and men and masculinity. All the things. All the things. And-
Tori Dunlap (00:04:31):
That was the weakest high five ever ’cause I didn’t want it to pop up and-
Liz Plank (00:04:33):
Do it. Pop off the mic. And in the process you might help me understand what a 401K does. I kind of know, but I’m-
Justin Baldoni (00:04:42):
yeah, we should talk about all this stuff. This is the perfect-
Tori Dunlap (00:04:44):
I’m here for all of it.
Liz Plank (00:04:45):
Because I’m Canada, they kind of, you have a safety net. I realize that here you kind of have to make your own safety net.
Tori Dunlap (00:04:49):
And you have a TFSA in Canada.
Liz Plank (00:04:54):
I know what that means.
Jamey Heath (00:04:54):
Liz Plank (00:04:54):
Jamey Heath (00:04:54):
You don’t know?
Liz Plank (00:04:54):
I have no idea what a TFSA is.
Jamey Heath (00:04:54):
It’s a TFSA, come on.
Liz Plank (00:04:57):
What’s a TFSA?
Jamey Heath (00:04:57):
Liz Plank (00:05:00):
Tell me what it stands for.
Jamey Heath (00:05:01):
It means TFSA.
Liz Plank (00:05:01):
What does T stand for?
Tori Dunlap (00:05:04):
The fuck she-
Jamey Heath (00:05:05):
Said [inaudible 00:05:08]
Liz Plank (00:05:09):
Anyway, Tori, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Tori Dunlap (00:05:12):
Thank you for having me.
Liz Plank (00:05:12):
We always start with the same question. Should we start with your-
Jamey Heath (00:05:16):
Liz Plank (00:05:17):
Oh my God.
Jamey Heath (00:05:18):
Would you like to turn your phone off? It’s my-
Liz Plank (00:05:19):
Every time. Jamey always tells us to turn off her phones. And then Jamey’s phone-
Tori Dunlap (00:05:23):
This is chaos today. Is this normal? I’ve seen clips, Shawn Mendes sat in this chair and it was the calmest thing I’ve ever fucking seen. Today it’s utter chaos.
Jamey Heath (00:05:32):
That was season one. He was our third guest.
Liz Plank (00:05:34):
Yes. This is season two.
Jamey Heath (00:05:36):
And that was because we weren’t saying anything we really wanted to say at the time.
Tori Dunlap (00:05:39):
Liz Plank (00:05:39):
Yeah, we were keeping a lot of it on the inside. Now it’s all on the outside. It’s too much.
Tori Dunlap (00:05:42):
Really, it’s written on the board.
Jamey Heath (00:05:46):
And now it’s all on the outside.
You know what I do? I just, everyone is on do not disturb, but my wife is the one person, no matter what I’m doing, that can get ahold of me.
Tori Dunlap (00:05:52):
I love it.
Liz Plank (00:05:53):
That’s why you’re co-host of a show called Man Enough.
Justin Baldoni (00:05:55):
Liz Plank (00:05:55):
Jamey Heath (00:05:56):
No, definitely not you.
Okay, let’s bring it back.
Liz Plank (00:06:02):
What’s the question?
Jamey Heath (00:06:03):
Ask the question, Jay.
Justin Baldoni (00:06:05):
When was the last time that you haven’t felt enough?
Tori Dunlap (00:06:08):
Oh, I don’t know why, I knew I was going to cry today, I didn’t know I was going to cry this soon. To be honest with you, I think it’s been a really long time because if there’s one thing I’ve ever known, it’s that I’m enough. There’s a million other insecurities I have, but self-worth is never one of them. And I love walking in a therapist’s office for the first time and being like, I have a lot of other things to talk about, but worthiness is not going to be an issue.
I’m trying to think of a particular time though. [inaudible 00:06:45]
Liz Plank (00:06:46):
How do you get that? What’s that? How does that happen?
Tori Dunlap (00:06:47):
I believe I’m deserving of love and opportunity and all of the good things and I think everybody is. And I think a lot of people are really lovely online. And they go, “How are you so confident?” And I’m like, “Confidence is a self worth issue.” If you believe yourself worthy of opportunity and of love and of belonging and of all those things, you will show up in every room knowing that you’re enough.
No, I’m sure I’ve had flickers and doubts and all of those things, but I think, honestly, this sounds so pompous, but I’ve done the work on myself to get to the point where I’m like, you know what? If this relationship isn’t working out, it’s not because I didn’t try or not because I’m not enough. If this opportunity didn’t pan out, it’s not because I’m not good enough. Yeah, I’m sure there’s been times recently, but I honestly can’t pinpoint one.
Liz Plank (00:07:33):
What’s the work that you’ve done to get there? For people who are struggling with this.
Tori Dunlap (00:07:38):
I think, again, it’s the realization that you are deserving of all of the things that you believe your favorite person in life is deserving of. I look at my best friend who’s the most incredible person, and I love her more than anything. And I’m like, you are deserving of every single good thing in this entire world. Why wouldn’t I believe that for myself? Why wouldn’t I believe that of everybody in this room?
Liz Plank (00:08:05):
I love that.
Jamey Heath (00:08:07):
I love it.
Liz Plank (00:08:07):
I love that because we often hear be your own best friend, but it’s like, be your favorite person.
Tori Dunlap (00:08:11):
Oh, I’m my favorite person to hang out with. I literally went to solo dinner last night, ordered a glass of wine, tried two different wines, picked one, focaccia, just, oh, it was great. Sat there, had just a grand old time, and that’s my favorite.
Jamey Heath (00:08:25):
How do you-
Justin Baldoni (00:08:26):
You’re like that, Jamey.
Jamey Heath (00:08:27):
Justin Baldoni (00:08:27):
I feel like you guys are similar in that way.
Jamey Heath (00:08:30):
Yeah. That resonated with me. I appreciate you saying that. I am curious, being a woman and making such a wonderful, bold statement that self-worth is not something you ever struggle with. And-
Tori Dunlap (00:08:43):
It already makes me nervous, even me just saying that.
Justin Baldoni (00:08:45):
Tori Dunlap (00:08:46):
Oh, I can hear the Instagram comments.
Justin Baldoni (00:08:48):
What are they going to say?
Tori Dunlap (00:08:49):
Oh, they’re going to say, “Oh, you’re conceited. Oh, she’s cocky.” Right? But if a man shows up and is like, “Yeah, I’m confident and I know my worth.” And they’re like, “Oh my God, good for you. That’s such a strong man.” Right?
Justin Baldoni (00:09:00):
Isn’t that interesting?
Jamey Heath (00:09:01):
So that women will attack you then for saying you’re confident-
Tori Dunlap (00:09:05):
I think men as well.
Jamey Heath (00:09:06):
And men will, when I say I have self-doubt or I am vulnerable, then that’s like, oh, you’re not a man.
Tori Dunlap (00:09:12):
Well, because I think we see somebody standing in their power as a threat to ourselves. And you and I talked about this when you came on my show where masculinity and redefining that and the struggle with patriarchy effects everybody regardless of identity. And internalized misogyny happens all the time regardless. So I think if you look at somebody existing how you potentially want to exist, but you’re not there yet, you either have an opportunity to go, wow, this person’s going to challenge me to be better. Or you go, oh, I hate this person. I hate what they stand for. I hate that they’re doing this because it feels like a mirror to yourself.
Jamey Heath (00:09:56):
You’re listening to the Man Enough podcast. We’ll be right back.
All right. Welcome back to the Man Enough Podcast. So tell me what tools you use or maybe why you have this. And when you live in a society that has told you, and when I say you as a woman, that you are not as good as men, pay-wise you’re not paid as much as men. Your voice doesn’t carry the same weight as men. You weren’t allowed to vote in the same capacity men were not too long ago. Your right to choose has been threatened. There are so many things that tell women that you are not enough and you are not equal. So how do you maintain that self worth when so many things are going against that?
Tori Dunlap (00:10:40):
What a beautiful question. There’s a difference between, I think, the way you view yourself and your own internal work versus what society is telling you, right? By society standards. Liz and I are worthless, by society standards. And we’re white women, so if we’re doing hierarchy by society, I think… That’s a really good question because you’re exactly right. I think women, people of color, any disabled people, LGBTQ, you’re being told constantly by society that you are not enough, or that you can’t have rights to your own body, or you can’t have the right to love who you want to love, or you can’t have healthcare, right? I don’t know. I don’t know how you… I guess the answer is you try to separate between yourself versus the way society views everybody generally. I don’t… I’m going to think about that question on the way home.
Jamey Heath (00:11:40):
Were your parents-
Justin Baldoni (00:11:40):
Yeah. I was going to go there.
Jamey Heath (00:11:43):
Did they remind you of your worth, that it wasn’t defined by someone else’s perception of you or what are some of the things that maybe have contributed to that?
Tori Dunlap (00:11:49):
Yeah, I was bullied pretty heavily when I was growing up. And the interesting thing that happened is a lot of my friends in early grades, third, fourth, fifth, started to shift and hang out with popular kids be
cause that meant belonging. And they changed their personalities in order to fit in. And I even look at seven, eight year old me and I’m proud of her, where she was very, I don’t care if you don’t like me, this is who I am. And my parents would tell me all the time, they would go, “Well, they’re jealous of you.” And when you’re 10 you’re like, no, they’re not. She has everything. She has the swoopy bangs and the cool outfits.
Liz Plank (00:12:31):
Whoopy bangs. So specific-
Tori Dunlap (00:12:32):
You remember curtain bangs?
Liz Plank (00:12:32):
We’re the same age, I know exactly what you mean.
Tori Dunlap (00:12:34):
Liz Plank (00:12:35):
Didn’t have swoopy bangs.
Tori Dunlap (00:12:36):
I’m like, how can she be jealous of me? And then of course, I look back now and I’m like, regardless of how she actually felt, I was somebody who was so self assured that felt, again, that felt like a threat. So I think my parents were very integral in saying, “You know what? Doesn’t matter how you fit in. It matters that you’re true to yourself.”
Liz Plank (00:13:03):
The way you’re answering, reminds me of, Tony Morrison was asked that question and she kind of just goes, “According to who?” Even you’re saying society tells you, you’re not enough, according to who? Because according to other women and the people I surround myself with, I’m not lesser, right. I’m not-
Tori Dunlap (00:13:19):
Right. Well, and society’s going to tell everybody some sort of narrative.
Liz Plank (00:13:22):
Sure, and it’s-
Tori Dunlap (00:13:22):
It’s going to tell men that you can’t cry-
Jamey Heath (00:13:24):
None of us feel like we’re enough.
Tori Dunlap (00:13:24):
It’s going to tell men that you can’t… Right. So okay, if we’re all not enough to society, then aren’t we all enough, weirdly?
Jamey Heath (00:13:31):
Liz Plank (00:13:33):
And I think I was bullied and it was the best thing that ever happened to me in hindsight.
Tori Dunlap (00:13:37):
Totally. Me too.
Liz Plank (00:13:38):
Because I look back and I’m like, I was so focused on these people don’t like me and I’m being, in many ways I was violently rejected. And it was very gendered, it was very the boys. And now when I look back, I’m like, I didn’t like you either. I didn’t. I’m so happy I’m not… I changed schools. I went to this school that was in my neighborhood that was much more, a lot less proper, a lot less… My parents were like, “What? We send you to this great school and you want to go to this one?” And it was the best thing that ever happened to me. It was a music theater school. I was such a weirdo and I could be myself. And when I look back I’m like, thank God. And part of feeling so assured and being so self-confident is that you’re taking the focus off of the other person and you’re thinking, what do I think about myself?
Tori Dunlap (00:14:24):
And it has nothing to do with them.
Liz Plank (00:14:26):
Tori Dunlap (00:14:26):
And it’s like going on a date, right? And the fear-
Liz Plank (00:14:28):
I was going to say, exactly.
Tori Dunlap (00:14:29):
You walk into a date and you have two perspectives. You either have, what if they don’t like me? What if they think I’m too much? What if they don’t like my hair? What if they don’t like my outfit? What if they don’t like what I say? Or you go, actually, what if I don’t like them?
Liz Plank (00:14:42):
Justin Baldoni (00:14:43):
You talk about that stat, I think in your book, I know you brought it up on the podcast.
Liz Plank (00:14:48):
Well, it’s not a stat, it’s just basically it’s my own anecdotal-
Justin Baldoni (00:14:52):
Oh, it’s your own, sorry.
Liz Plank (00:14:54):
Observation. Is that I would be talking to a woman who was on her way to going on a date and she would be telling me very different things from my friend Matt, who was going on a date. And she would be same thing where, oh, I hope he likes me. I hope I have good things to talk about. I’ve blah, blah, blah. And the guy Matt was just like, I hope I like her. I hope it’ll be entertaining, and if it’s not, then I’m going to leave.
Tori Dunlap (00:15:14):
Leave. I want to asterisk that with, it’s not just like, am I going to like them, but are we going to get along? And it’s not so much about the fear that maybe this person won’t vibe or gel with me and more just actually, I hope that they get along with me and I get along with them. That’s the hope.
Liz Plank (00:15:33):
Yeah. Or it’s the path to then finding the person who I do get along with. You know what I mean? It’s trying to control the outcome when… I really think sometimes I go out, I’m so silly. Why would I try and make it work with someone I don’t even know yet? And I wonder-
Justin Baldoni (00:15:46):
Liz Plank (00:15:46):
I mean dating is-
Justin Baldoni (00:15:47):
Get into it.
Liz Plank (00:15:48):
Let’s get into even dating as a very financially stable and I mean it’s an understatement for your very high income earning person, I mean woman.
Tori Dunlap (00:15:57):
And you Google me and you know my net worth.
Liz Plank (00:16:00):
What is that like when you go on dates?
Tori Dunlap (00:16:02):
Somebody Googled me in front of me a couple months ago.
Jamey Heath (00:16:05):
No. Can I Google you right now? I’m just joking.
No, go ahead.
Justin Baldoni (00:16:08):
How do they know your net worth?
Tori Dunlap (00:16:11):
I mean, I’m very-
Jamey Heath (00:16:12):
Justin Baldoni (00:16:12):
Oh, because you share it.
Tori Dunlap (00:16:13):
I’m open. I mean all of these sites, right? They’re always like this… I’m like, you’re not accurate at all, but I’m open about it.
Justin Baldoni (00:16:18):
So what’s it like dating, ladies, for the two married men here, what’s it like dating today being two very successful, powerful women?
Tori Dunlap (00:16:31):
A garbage fire. Thank you. [inaudible 00:16:33] question.
Justin Baldoni (00:16:35):
A garbage fire.
Tori Dunlap (00:16:36):
A garbage fire.
Jamey Heath (00:16:37):
You’re listening to the Man Enough podcast. We’ll be right back. All right. Welcome back to the Man Enough podcast.
Justin Baldoni (00:16:44):
Are men intimidated by success and power and the fact that you can support yourself financially? Is that something that you encounter or is that kind of gone now? These don’t… Still around?
Tori Dunlap (00:16:58):
Yes. Those are not the men I’m interested in.
Justin Baldoni (00:17:00):
Yes, of course. I would assume so.
Tori Dunlap (00:17:02):
I very actually rarely talk to them anymore because they’ve either not matched with me on the app or-
Justin Baldoni (00:17:09):
So we’re online dating-
Tori Dunlap (00:17:10):
Or just in general.
Justin Baldoni (00:17:10):
By the way, when I say dating, should I just be just assuming that it’s online now? Does anyone date-
Tori Dunlap (00:17:16):
Justin Baldoni (00:17:16):
Or just assuming that it’s all-
Liz Plank (00:17:17):
Some people aren’t on the apps, but it’s kind of to me online dating and real life dating is kind of merged, I don’t feel the need to differentiate it, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:17:24):
Yeah. And there’s so little unfortunately in person and of course we were talking about before, the person I’m now dating, I met in real life at a bar, which feels so 1980s. What is that?
Liz Plank (00:17:37):
I love it. I love it.
Tori Dunlap (00:17:38):
Do I need shoulder pads too. Yeah. I don’t know. So different.
Liz Plank (00:17:44):
It’s so exciting, though.
Tori Dunlap (00:17:46):
But I feel like, I think most dating is online dating.
Liz Plank (00:17:49):
Because both of you weren’t on your phones, you were just sitting there.
Tori Dunlap (00:17:52):
And I actually called my friend and I was like, I’m going out, I’m getting the number tonight, you coming with me? And she was like, I’m not drinking. I was like, perfect, you can drive me.
Liz Plank (00:18:00):
Oh, I love that.
Tori Dunlap (00:18:03):
But I think, I mean most dating is a garbage fire and I think it’s a lot of people not knowing what they want, I should say men not knowing what they want. Yeah, there’s definitely some intimidation. I think a lot of men say they want, men who are interested in women, say that they want a strong independent woman and then they get one and they’re like, I feel threatened.
Justin Baldoni (00:18:27):
So what happens? So let’s talk, what is that about? Why do they feel threatened?
Tori Dunlap (00:18:33):
The majority actually of the relationships that I’ve been in have ended largely because I have known who I am and what I want. And in me doing that, my male partner has felt threatened. Not because I threatened him, but because if you’re dating somebody who knows who they are, knows what they want, and then you don’t-
Justin Baldoni (00:18:55):
That’s so sexy.
Tori Dunlap (00:18:58):
I think so too. That’s one of my favorite things about men who know what they want. I’m like-
Justin Baldoni (00:19:01):
That’s so sexy when women know who they are.
Liz Plank (00:19:04):
But to me it’s that they want the fantasy of the feminist empowered woman, but what comes with her is that she’s a real human. She’s not just this cool feminist cutout that you get to parade around and say, look how strong of a man I am, that I have a feminist empowered girlfriend. It means that I’m going to be a full human being who will challenge you and not just because I’m not as self confident as you are. I’m not a millionaire. I-
Justin Baldoni (00:19:37):
We still have at least 30 minutes left in the show.
Tori Dunlap (00:19:42):
Check your bank account now and check it at the end.
Liz Plank (00:19:43):
What TPMT is or whatever in Canada is. But it’s like, it’s still kind of the of pixie girl dream, which is this fantasy in a lot of film a
nd television that if you look at any movie that was made before 2013, like Aziz Ansari’s show, which I think was really good. But still the girl, the main romantic interest, her entire personality is just liking him and to be the projection of everything that he desires. And I think that the empowered woman has become the new kind of fantasy. It’s kind of cool for men to be dating. And again, it sort of shines on them that they’re with that woman.
Tori Dunlap (00:20:22):
Well, it makes them feel better, I think, about themselves.
Liz Plank (00:20:23):
It makes them feel better, but then they’re not ready with us being full human beings in that sense. And then-
Justin Baldoni (00:20:29):
Having your own likes and interests outside of them.
Liz Plank (00:20:30):
It’s actually worse for me anyways when I’m with a person like that because then it kind of feels like gaslighting, right? It kind feels like, wait-
Tori Dunlap (00:20:39):
You wanted me for this.
Liz Plank (00:20:40):
You’re telling me you want me for this? But then when I-
Jamey Heath (00:20:42):
Could part of it be that there are men that do want a strong, independent, financially stable, all of the things in a woman, then you start dating one and you realize that you have your own self doubt and now you start feeling small, not because you don’t want that woman-
Tori Dunlap (00:21:02):
No, that’s literally exactly what I’m saying-
Jamey Heath (00:21:03):
But because you now feel small. So I was in a relationship before I got married to an amazing woman. I’ve always been super confident and I’ve always dated people that are very powerful women. I’m attracted to that and that’s what I’ve been exposed to in my life with women. But then there was a time when I felt really, really small. Now I was still attracted to powerful women, but I found myself all of a sudden because I didn’t know my way out because my life was blown up and all of a sudden I could not keep up, and then now that became intimidating to me.
Tori Dunlap (00:21:37):
Right and that’s what I was saying before-
Jamey Heath (00:21:37):
Even though I still wanted it, but because I was small. So it wasn’t me wanting to gaslight or not want the very thing that I wanted. But if men don’t feel enough themself, then how can you then stand tall when you’re with a woman that…
Tori Dunlap (00:21:55):
Right. It’s either a challenge and an opportunity of, oh, this person is challenging me to be better, cool, let’s dig into that. Or it’s, I’m going to bail, I’m going to flat bail, right? Those are the two options.
Liz Plank (00:22:10):
And you need to be able to communicate, right? I saw Michelle Obama in this really powerful interview where she was just, she kind of compared it to sports, why would you want a… Your teammates, why would you want a shittier teammate? Don’t you want a teammate that’s really good? And I think being able to, in a great relationship, you’re both pulling each other up. It’s not just, well I’m amazing, you have to be amazing too. It’s like, well let’s figure this out together. How can you-
Jamey Heath (00:22:36):
And there’s seasons.
Liz Plank (00:22:37):
And Chris Rock says this, right? The tambourine example, do you guys know what I’m talking about? Where he’s like, there’s always one person that is playing the tambourine. You both can’t be playing the tambourine. So there’s one partner that’s in the front and you’re playing the tambourine in the back, but then you have to change, right? There’s always a point where you’re the one playing the tambourine. And if it’s always the sam
e person playing the tambourine, maybe that’ll get…
And Esther Perel talks about this, that there’s always kind of these shifting dynamics and it isn’t this fixed thing of one person’s the alpha one person’s the beta, one persons the… We’re all human beings and we all are flexible in that way. And so being able to be there for each other in those moments of, I don’t feel enough right now, it’s not about me, but let’s talk about you and how can I support you in this moment? Right? But you have to be able to say that honestly and be true and be vulnerable enough in that relationship to be able to say that. And I think my experience with guys, I just went on a date with someone a couple weeks ago and at one point, I was-
Justin Baldoni (00:23:42):
I love when Liz talks about her dating life.
Liz Plank (00:23:42):
Oh my God.
Justin Baldoni (00:23:45):
There’s a couple goals-
Tori Dunlap (00:23:45):
A good chunk of my TikTok is dating nightmare.
Justin Baldoni (00:23:46):
There’s a couple goals for the end of this show. But now it’s going to, we’ll say the season, Liz a millionaire, and Liz, out of the dumpster fire and happy and with somebody that sees her and loves her and respects her for the fucking bad ass that she is. That’s what we want.
Tori Dunlap (00:24:04):
I can help with half of that. I will commit to half of that.
Jamey Heath (00:24:05):
I’m so confused by the fact that when you’re single, you’re single. Because you are awesome, you’re beautiful-
Liz Plank (00:24:12):
But there’s nothing wrong with being single.
Jamey Heath (00:24:12):
I’m not saying that’s wrong. No, no, no, no. That’s not-
Liz Plank (00:24:15):
I know what you mean. I know what you mean.
Justin Baldoni (00:24:17):
Sorry, I wasn’t saying that there was anything wrong with you being single. But I do feel your pull, you want to find your partner.
Jamey Heath (00:24:22):
Yeah, that’s what we mean. Based on the fact you want to find your partner I’m flabbergasted that you don’t have that one. Because I imagine, what the hell, how is it not just a simple-
Justin Baldoni (00:24:32):
Yeah. How are they not lining up?
Jamey Heath (00:24:35):
Tori Dunlap (00:24:35):
Ask a better question. Not why is Liz single, but why are men trash?
Justin Baldoni (00:24:41):
So that’s what-
Jamey Heath (00:24:42):
Why are men trash?
Tori Dunlap (00:24:43):
Why are men not showing up?
Justin Baldoni (00:24:43):
I don’t think men are trash.
Tori Dunlap (00:24:44):
What about men are not relating to the incredible woman, Liz?
Justin Baldoni (00:24:48):
That’s what I wanted to actually get into next was because if you think about what our collective response to the trauma that is growing up a boy in the world right now. And again, we’re not going to compare or rank, I’m just specifically speaking about what it’s like to grow up as a boy, which is really all that I can talk about. A straight white boy, you can talk about being a straight black boy, very different experiences.
But what we know is from age one, we look at our fathers, we look at other boys and we know that we have to be the providers. That we have to be the protectors. And that our worth is tied to how we are able to man up and take care of and protect women from other men, keep them safe, provide for them financially. And the focus isn’t even on being a good man and a good human. It’s literally be big, be strong. If you can be successful, be the strongest guy in the room. Be the hardest worker in the room. Take care of them. Take care of everybody. That’s your value. So it almost seems like when we meet a woman who doesn’t need that, when we meet you or we meet you, our brains are like, where do I fit? Where do I fit in this situation? I don’t know. Where’s my worth? What am I supposed to do with you?
Tori Dunlap (00:26:13):
I could read a text from the person I’m now dating an hour ago that just says that. We’re having conversations about it and it’s an opportunity to talk about it.
Justin Baldoni (00:26:20):
It’s so important because one of the things I do in my marriage is if something comes up like this, if I’m feeling something, I share it. And it is in the it coming out of me, me pushing past the embarrassment of, wow, I’m feeling these things that I’m able to process it in real time. Now some stuff I don’t and should not put on my spouse or my partner. There are things that I just need to process or process with a therapist or process with a friend like Jamey. There are other things that I can process with her-
Tori Dunlap (00:26:51):
The vulnerability of that.
Justin Baldoni (00:26:53):
Because they have to do with the both of us. So what I hope for any man listening to this right now, because I believe that men deep down want a strong, empowered, badass, powerful woman that knows who she is and knows who she wants because that is going to then eventually, in a heterosexual relationship, pass on to your children.
If you have a girl, why wouldn’t you want that for your daughter? She’s not going to learn that, I mean, she’s going to learn a lot from me of course, but she’s going to also learn that from her mother. So share, talk about the fact that you know what, maybe you didn’t have a mom that was Liz Plank or Tori Dunlap. Maybe you don’t know what to do in that situation. Maybe you’ve never seen a man support a woman. Maybe you’ve never thought about being a stay at home dad. Maybe you’re not used to making less money. But that does not mean that you don’t have as much value as another man. That does not mean that you are not valuable or not enough. It just means that you get to recalibrate your relationship with the opposite sex in that way and what your relationship could look like.
Liz Plank (00:27:56):
And also define your worth from yourself-
Justin Baldoni (00:27:59):
Yourself, it’s not outside.
Liz Plank (00:28:00):
And take women… But the fact that you, again, I love being protected and provided for not just from men that I date, from women that I date, from my friends, from my family, from my coworkers. Protecting and providing, I think, are such beautiful virtues. I don’t even think a lot of us are saying, we don’t want you to do that. But it’s weird that, and this is part of the patriarchy, but it’s weird that men’s definition of themselves requires someone else to do something or agree or consent. And I think that even when I say dating and empowered women means that it’s challenging you. It’s not even challenging you. I’m just showing you who you are. It’s just revealing to you who you are. And that’s all I’m doing by being in a relationship with you.
Tori Dunlap (00:28:50):
You’re a mirror. That’s it.
Liz Plank (00:28:51):
I’m just a mirror.
Justin Baldoni (00:28:51):
It’s a mirror, that’s it.
Liz Plank (00:28:52):
And are you willing to see yourself and to see all of this-
Tori Dunlap (00:28:56):
There’s plenty of women I’ve dated, or women, plenty of men I’ve dated have not, right? Plenty of men I’ve dated have not taken that opportunity.
Justin Baldoni (00:29:02):
Men are killing themselves because they can’t provide for their families, because they don’t know what their place is in the world if they’re unable to provide for their children or for their wife and keep a roof over their head if they lose their job. And we saw this happening. So at male suicide rates are also increasing.
Jamey Heath (00:29:22):
You’re listening to the Man Enough podcast. We’ll be right back.
All right, welcome back to the Man Enough podcast.
Justin Baldoni (00:29:28):
There’s no foundation or conversation where we have been told at a young age that it’s okay. We are more than our productivity and our value, which is why I know I said this on your podcast, this is why we have to, in many ways, separate men from the patriarchal structure that is also killing them and also killing women, and trans folks, and non-binary folks.
Tori Dunlap (00:29:52):
Well, and I’ll offer an interlocking perspective to that, which is to round about talking this conversation and bringing it into more of the financial realm. When we think about the way we raise boys versus girls. Yes, a hundred percent, the view on providing right is largely a very masculine or a thing that we put on boys or men. But what happens, perfect example is the toys we give children. We give boys Legos and trucks and things to build and we tell them that their value is in entrepreneurship or in critical thinking or in problem solving, and in building for themselves. What do we give girls? Easy bake ovens. Dolls. We give a literal child, another child to take care of.
So then if we think about growing up and navigating your career or your money, boys are expected and conditioned to want money and to pursue wealth. Now it gets them in trouble because the expectation to provide is so deeply ingrained as well. But then when a woman has the audacity to want to pursue wealth, well we weaponize that altruism that we’ve ingrained in her since day one. Why aren’t you donating more? Why aren’t you asking for more money? You should just be grateful.
So weirdly, the interlocking perspective of dictating that boys or men have to be providers becomes a double edged sword a hundred percent. But for women, then we’re also actually told to be caregivers and to constantly sacrifice ourselves and have our identity be in every single person around us. Care for another child, care for people, make food, make all of these other things, don’t problem solve and build your own brain. And then of course, as you grow and you have the audacity to want money as a woman, well suddenly then in order to tax her, we weaponize her altruism.
Liz Plank (00:32:02):
And when you say weaponized for altruism, what do you mean by that?
Tori Dunlap (00:32:04):
The TikTok comments I get, which is like, why aren’t you donating all of your money? Why are you charging people for your services? If you really loved this, you should just do it for free. And then the interesting response that I have is not, I deserve to get compensated for my expertise. It is, oh well I have team members that I have to pay, I have team members that I have to pay.
Justin Baldoni (00:32:27):
You feel like you have to defend yourself.
Tori Dunlap (00:32:29):
I have members I have to pay, and this is a company that employs other people and I pay their salaries, not that plus, I deserve to get compensated for my value.
Justin Baldoni (00:32:39):
Well, it’s not like the men are getting the same questions.
Liz Plank (00:32:43):
They’re expected to pursue that.
Tori Dunlap (00:32:45):
No, because men are applauded for the pursuit of wealth. They absolutely worship that. And if a man is photographed on a golf course in a Rolex, it’s, cool, you must be doing well for yourself. If a woman is in a designer dress, it’s, that’s such a waste of money. It’s so frivolous. What are you doing?
Liz Plank (00:33:04):
Well the amount of female politicians who’ve been told this is how much your suit costs. And I’ve never seen any male politician have a page six article about wearing a $2,000 Armani suit.
Tori Dunlap (00:33:15):
No. And the interesting thing that happens as well is it’s the worst, unfortunately from women. Because again, if you see somebody in power-
Justin Baldoni (00:33:23):
So it’s women commenting about women?
Tori Dunlap (00:33:25):
And men, it’s both. But women in particular will go, I’m really excited for you, but you’re bragging a lot.
Justin Baldoni (00:33:33):
Don’t take up too much space.
Tori Dunlap (00:33:35):
Liz Plank (00:33:35):
Because they’ve been-
Tori Dunlap (00:33:35):
Because the patriarchy has told them there is one seat at this table. There’s one seat at this table for a woman or a person of color or a queer person, there is one seat. And if we all fight each other for that one seat, well suddenly the patriarchy doesn’t have to do anything.
Liz Plank (00:33:47):
And they think they’re protecting you because they’ve been burned by being too braggy. Right?
Tori Dunlap (00:33:51):
Totally. And it’s with all of the love in the world, I see that for what it is, which is God, you’ve been told to play small and I’m so fucking sorry.
Liz Plank (00:33:59):
Yeah. And how does it affect female entrepreneurs? I mean, we’ve been seeing of all of these women, there was that recent example of the Glossier, Glossier, Glossier, I don’t even know how to say it-
Tori Dunlap (00:34:10):
Liz Plank (00:34:12):
Glossier, the company with the women, I don’t know anything. Emily West?
Tori Dunlap (00:34:15):
Emily, Emily, what is it? Weissman? Yeah. Emily-
Liz Plank (00:34:16):
Basically changing roles going from CEO to another position and people being like, it’s the end of the woman girl boss. And it’s like if a man-
Tori Dunlap (00:34:24):
The New York Times, that bullshit headline, I was so upset by that.
Liz Plank (00:34:27):
Can you tell us what that was and why it’s wrong?
Tori Dunlap (00:34:29):
Yeah, it was basically, I wish I remembered the headline, but there’s been this reckoning recently just about workplace culture and about what we demand of our leaders and how they show up. And women have taken the brunt of that. And so what we do is we put people on pedestals, we put anybody, celebrity, CEO, entrepreneur on pedestals, and then we’re really excited when they fall off the very pedestal we put them on. And we’re especially excited when we put women on a pedestal and then they fall.
So in the same way that Steve Jobs is heralded as this innovative thinker when he screamed at his employees and didn’t shower for days, there’s this again, double standard where if you have all of these stories coming out now about toxic workplaces that women run, that gets all of this press and all of this negative attention. Now I want to be clear, toxicity in workplaces has no place regardless of a gender identity of the CEO or the person running it. But we look at Elizabeth Holmes, perfect example, who I’m obsessed with that story and I know I’m obsessed with it, because it’s a woman. And I don’t think there would’ve been as much of a fallout and as big dramatic changes, had she not been at the time the youngest self-made billionaire in the world-
Liz Plank (00:35:56):
Tori Dunlap (00:35:57):
As a woman, right?
Liz Plank (00:35:58):
Yes. And I mean, I have friends who are female entrepreneurs, female, just entrepreneurs.
Tori Dunlap (00:36:03):
Thank you. Yep.
Liz Plank (00:36:03):
And my friend Audrey started a company called [inaudible 00:36:08] Cardinals, which is an ad tech company. And she gets compared to Elizabeth Holmes all the time, and it makes, no… It’s like, what?
Tori Dunlap (00:36:15):
You’re like, she’s not a criminal, but cool, that’s fine.
Liz Plank (00:36:18):
Yeah. But that’s the only female entrepreneur that you can sort of think of, right? And they both went to Stanford, which you would just never see a successful man who’s an entrepreneur being compared to Martin Shkreli. Right? Or the WeWork CEO, right? Because they went to the same school, there would just be no comparison.
Tori Dunlap (00:36:36):
Well, and I think your original question was what sort of narratives or what sort of things have affected women? I think the biggest ones, especially when it comes to money, are not just culturally play small, but financially play small. So there’s so many narratives. And I have a book that’s coming out called Financial Feminist, where I literally break these down.
Justin Baldoni (00:36:54):
Tori Dunlap (00:36:54):
Thank you. Hardest thing I’ve ever done, my God, writing a book. You know, it’s insane.
Justin Baldoni (00:36:58):
Tori Dunlap (00:37:00):
So the very first narrative that everybody in this room I’m sure has heard is that talking about money is taboo, right? Don’t talk about money. It’s impolite, it’s goshe, we shouldn’t talk about it, right? We’ll talk about any other topic. We’ll talk about sex, we’ll talk about politics, religion, death. We’ll talk about literally anything else before we’ll talk about mo
ney. That is a patriarchal narrative perpetuated to keep you underpaid and overworked.
Justin Baldoni (00:37:23):
Oh, for sure.
Tori Dunlap (00:37:23):
Because if you don’t talk about money, well suddenly I don’t know that Justin’s making 20% more than me doing the same role. And if I don’t talk about money, I feel very alone and siloed for the fact that I have student debt. And I don’t know that somebody else is also struggling with that. So that’s a narrative that’s perpetuated regardless of your gender identity. But specifically what happens is that again, as boys age, those conversations are more likely to happen, they’re more conditioned, right? The golf course, the boardroom, the bar, the drinks after work, you’re talking about your stock picks, you’re talking about your bonus you’re bringing in. We’re not having those conversations as women. And it’s not because we don’t necessarily want to talk about them. It’s because we A, don’t know how. And B, it’s not socially conditioned in us the same way.
Then you have narratives specifically for women. Again, reason you’re not rich is because you buy too many lattes or you got to manicure once and-
Jamey Heath (00:38:19):
Get your hair done.
Tori Dunlap (00:38:20):
Right. But we know especially for women of color, that if you don’t show up a certain way in the world and especially in the workplace-
Justin Baldoni (00:38:29):
Yeah, you’re not getting the job.
Tori Dunlap (00:38:30):
Right. If I show up without makeup to a job interview, I’m not going to get that job. So the very things we’re being shamed for the very things that are also required of us to navigate society. But they’re the reason you can’t buy a house, deprive yourself constantly. You Google how to grow your wealth. Guess what shows up for men, investing, real estate. Guess what shows up for women, deprive yourself, minimize as opposed to maximize.
Liz Plank (00:39:00):
Tori Dunlap (00:39:00):
Yes. As opposed to… It’s here are five hot stocks for men. For women here are five meals you can make under $5. Right? It’s 2022 and we’re still dealing with this.
Liz Plank (00:39:11):
Right. And there’s this also this amazing quote that you say, “A man is not a financial plan.”
Jamey Heath (00:39:17):
A man is not a financial plan.
Liz Plank (00:39:18):
And in a way-
Justin Baldoni (00:39:19):
That’s brilliant, Tori.
Liz Plank (00:39:20):
The fact that we are told to depend on men and that men are told that they should provide for us, it keeps women unsafe. Right? To be financially independent.
Tori Dunlap (00:39:27):
Yes. And I do want to say, I was not the first person to say that by any means. But yeah, I think again, even in 2022, the vast majority of heteronormative relationships, the woman is handling the day-to-day finances, the budgeting, the coupon clipping, the grocery store shopping. Men are handling the investing, men are handling the wealth building, they’re handling the bigger decisions. And then weirdly what happens, my work is largely with women in their twenties and thirties, but we have a ton of people who are 40, 50, 60, who either are separating from their partners or their partners have died and they’re like, I have no idea what my password is to these accounts. I have no idea what the stock market even is. Or he took everything in the divorce and now I’m left with nothing even though I was either financially contributing to this household or raising children or caring for ailing family members. This is still happening.
Justin Baldoni (00:40:26):
I do want to point out one thing though, because yes to all of this. And I’ve seen it firsthand. In fact, this was a conversation I had with my dad, even on our podcast. And as I was doing my research for my book, a lot of it was unpacking the relationship in my family. And I don’t believe that it’s malicious. That it’s men doing this as a way of, let me keep my partner in the dark.
Liz Plank (00:40:55):
I mean, sometimes it is, though.
Tori Dunlap (00:40:55):
That is financial abuse, which is different.
Justin Baldoni (00:40:55):
I’m sure there’s sometimes it is.
Jamey Heath (00:40:55):
Sometimes it is.
Liz Plank (00:40:57):
I mean, it happened to me, I will admit it. This is something I’ve never admitted. I moved to this country with a person and it turned out to be an abusive relationship and I didn’t have my own bank account and I was working a job. I was-
Justin Baldoni (00:41:10):
So it was a control. It was meant to be power-
Liz Plank (00:41:11):
It was control because he would just make all these fights about me getting and I would just kind of go like, okay. It was just easier to give up. So sometimes it is, I’m not saying your regular day guy. But I think it’s important to say that it-
Justin Baldoni (00:41:21):
I’m so sorry that happened to you and I’m not meaning to minimize-
Liz Plank (00:41:23):
But It’s just a part of domestic-
Justin Baldoni (00:41:24):
But I think that there are situations where, look, abusers are abusers.
Tori Dunlap (00:41:28):
99% of domestic violence cases have some sort of financial abuse.
Justin Baldoni (00:41:32):
I a hundred percent agree with that.
Tori Dunlap (00:41:33):
And all of what I said before, this is not malicious intent. This is society telling us, men, you’re good with money, you’re good with math. Women, you’re not.
Justin Baldoni (00:41:41):
Well, and from my own father, that’s what his father did. And it was early 19 hundreds for my grandfather and then my dad grew up and that was his job. He honestly felt that it was his job to make my mom more comfortable. And my mom learned from her mom because that was how it was done. And we’re talking about generational things that are passed down. And so there’s an unlearning that has to happen here. Honestly, on both sides.
I think that what you are doing is so damn important for women, and I also think it’s important for men to unlearn and to question that part of themselves that thinks that they have to do it. Because my dad, when I brought it up to my dad, he’s like, I never thought about it. He’s like, I was just trying to help my family. And he was sincere in that. Now the consequences of it is my sister learned from my mom and now she at 30 is reformulating her whole idea around money. And that’s a beautiful thing to bear witness to, seeing her become her own financially independent woman. But this is how it’s passed down. And yes, there’s abuse and yes, there are men that do it to manipulate and to control. And I have a lot to say about those men, but there are so many men who are doing it because they think it’s the right thing.
Tori Dunlap (00:43:01):
Yep. It’s well intention. Right? Totally.
Liz Plank (00:43:03):
Yeah. Yeah. But the power dynamic it creates is not one where men and women are equally effected.
Justin Baldoni (00:43:10):
I’m not excusing it. I’m not excusing it. And we also have to remember there’s a lot of women and it’s also okay to be a woman who wants that, because there are a lot of women that exist who do want to have traditional ideas of marriage and maybe traditionally more feminine ideas of being a housewife and raising children because that’s in their DNA and there’s got to be room for everybody.
Liz Plank (00:43:31):
Yeah, yeah. I mean it’s that everyone should have a choice and right now we’re falling into… Because there’s no way women are just choosing not to have money. Right.
Tori Dunlap (00:43:41):
And I will say as well I very much believe personal finance is personal. That’s one of the things I say all the time, your choices are about 20%, your circumstances are 80% when it comes to personal finance. There are a few hard and fast rules I have though. And one of them is that regardless of your identity and who you’re with, you need to have some of your own money. Even if you are-
Justin Baldoni (00:44:02):
I think it’s brilliant.
Tori Dunlap (00:44:03):
Merging, let’s say 90% of it, 10% of it needs to be your own money.
Justin Baldoni (00:44:10):
Can you give us your, the woman who’s listening, and honestly lots of men-
Tori Dunlap (00:44:17):
Oh, it’s girls, gays and theys at Her First $100K, very much we have a ton of-
Justin Baldoni (00:44:23):
But when I was on your podcast, I’m still learning-
Tori Dunlap (00:44:26):
The first 20 minutes of our interview was Justin very vulnerable being like, how does compound interest work? I’m not really sure.
Justin Baldoni (00:44:32):
Well, I’ve heard Tony Robbins talk about it and I’ve heard these people talk about it, but I’m like, sometimes the math doesn’t make sense to me. A lot of people that have a lot to learn from you, and taking control of that is in today’s day and age, taking power. And so what are steps that the average listener can take? What are steps like we joked about that Liz can take? What are things that we can all do and what are you telling all of your listeners right now that our listeners can now learn from?
Tori Dunlap (00:44:59):
Sure. First thing, like I was saying before, personal finance is personal and the vast majority of your financial situation has nothing to do with your personal choices. So all of the guilt you feel and all of the shame you feel about not knowing this sooner, about not having more money, about being poor or struggling. Systemic oppression and personal finance are inextricably linked. And anybody out there who is telling you, again, the reason you’re not rich is a personal choice, is one, trying to sell you something. And B, lying to you. Because the vast majority of the way you’re going to have to navigate money is directly tied to your gender identity, your race, if you have a disability, if you’re queer, all of these things impact your money. So allowing yourself some grace in navigating all of this and knowing, okay, I can only control about 20% of this.
Now let’s talk about that 20%. First thing to do is automate your savings. Set aside an automatic transfer from your checking account to your savings count every single month. Too many people wait till the end of the month to start saving and then they don’t have any money. There’s no money in the bank account.
Justin Baldoni (00:46:21):
Is there a percentage of your-
Tori Dunlap (00:46:23):
This is the personal finance is personal, it’s up to you, it depends. It depends on where you’re at in your financial life. There is no magical percentage. I always say it should be a little sticky. You shouldn’t be able to be to buy every single thing you’ve ever wanted. But if you’re depriving yourself, that’s not going to work. 99% of diets fail because if you tell me I can’t have fried chicken, all I want is fried chicken. And the same thing works with spending. If you tell somebody they can’t spend money, they’re going to binge spend. That just doesn’t work.
So setting aside that automatic transfer does the hard thing first. We call it in the personal finance community, paying yourself first. And if you are sending Netflix more money, then you’re setting aside for yourself. I’m not saying cancel Netflix, I’m just saying if you’re giving a multi-billion dollar corporation more money than you’re giving yourself every month, you are more deserving of that money. I would argue at least as deserving. And it is for future you.
One of the questions that people ask all the time is like, “Oh, are you a saver or a spender?” Now I could win an Olympic medal in saving money, right? But actually that’s a bullshit question. We’re all spenders. I just might spend the money in 30 years in my retirement or I might spend it on vacation next year. Or maybe if I’m leaving money for children or charity, they’re going to spend that money. So you are setting aside money for future you to be taken care of in case of an emergency, for your wedding next year, for a kick ass vacation, to retire early to start a business. So automate as much as you can.
The first priority with that automation should be an emergency fund. There’s a lot of financial experts out there who tell you that debt is terrible and you’re inherently horrible as a human being if you have debt. When you think about that, one, debt is a natural unfortunately part of life. And it’s actually called leverage if you’re rich. Debt becomes a literal different word if you’re rich.
Justin Baldoni (00:48:17):
That’s the same thing.
Liz Plank (00:48:18):
Justin Baldoni (00:48:20):
I just learned about it not that long ago.
Tori Dunlap (00:48:21):
So if we define debt, you take out student loans, you take out mortgage, you take out a car loan. Leverage is, oh, I know I can make more money on the stock market by taking out this loan. I have enough, I could buy this house in cash, but I know I’m going to actually make more money on the stock market. So I’m going to take out a mortgage even though I don’t need it in order to make more money.
Justin Baldoni (00:48:43):
Tori Dunlap (00:48:44):
Or refinance. And then you have again, folks like Elon Musk who are literally borrowing off of their company, borrowing shares and leveraging-
Liz Plank (00:48:53):
Money they don’t have.
Tori Dunlap (00:48:54):
Right, and taking on debt. Right. So it’s called something different if you have money.
Justin Baldoni (00:48:58):
I’ve never thought about it that way.
Liz Plank (00:48:59):
That’s such a good put in.
Tori Dunlap (00:49:01):
It’s crazy, right? So just in the way we talk about this, it’s very expensive to be poor. It’s very expensive to be poor. But number one priority is your emergency savings. Your number one priority is having a nest egg to cover yourself if you need it. Regardless of how much debt you have. If you have tens of thousands of dollars of debt, hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, you need that emergency fund first.
Justin Baldoni (00:49:21):
By the way, when you just said it’s so expensive to be poor, I just had this visceral feeling of remembering, and this is honestly, not even 10 years ago, overdrawing my bank account and all of the different $30 charges, I don’t know if it’s gone up in 10 years, but-
Tori Dunlap (00:49:43):
Nope. It’s about that money. It’s about that much.
Justin Baldoni (00:49:45):
But I remember there was two or three years where I would beg the bank to reverse the charges. And I was so confused. Wait, how can you be charging me when I’m gone under a dollar or $2 or there was an auto pay or something and I remember having a thousand dollars of overages at the end of a year. And of course it’s shame on me for not paying this close of attention-
Tori Dunlap (00:50:14):
No. So 30% of Americans are either un or underbanked, meaning that they either don’t have access to a bank because they live in a rural community or they’re not taking the full advantage of banking services. And not very shocking the vast majority of that 30% are people of color in lower income areas for that exact reason. Because there’s either not a bank available in their area and they don’t have the money or the time to be able to travel to that bank or because they don’t have the money to try to navigate a banking system that continually charges them an annual fee for their bank account or for an overdraft fee.
Justin Baldoni (00:50:53):
It’s just like getting kicked when you’re down is what it felt like.
Tori Dunlap (00:50:55):
Yeah, totally. And so, I mean there’s many costs to being poor. It is extremely expensive to be poor.
Justin Baldoni (00:51:00):
Jamey, you haven’t said anything in about 30 minutes.
Tori Dunlap (00:51:02):
I know. I keep turning. I’m like-
Jamey Heath (00:51:04):
Well, for two reasons. One is, it’s been interesting to listen to the two of you speak mostly and to just listen and learn rather than have a voice in an area that other than to support it. I don’t want my silence to be as if I’m not supporting these learnings and how we can be better.
Tori Dunlap (00:51:27):
That’s such a generous thing to do, thank you. Because I’m a better talker than I am a listener, but I’m working on that.
Jamey Heath (00:51:33):
I love what you’re sharing. I want my daughter, who’s 32 to know you and to know what you’re doing. I have a daughter who’s six or five, my son is six, she’s five, to be raised with this thinking.
Tori Dunlap (00:51:46):
Jamey Heath (00:51:46):
I want to be different so that she can be different. This is what is challenging. So I have a daughter that’s 32, a son that’s 19. I have a son who’s getting mixed messages. But as you said earlier that it’s not women’s job to make men feel more special and safe. 100% not your job. Now also, I have a group of men who I lost, so I got to think about how do I help them get out stuck without putting the onus on you to get them unstuck.
My son, he has some friends that want to be provided for that want him to open up the door, him to pay for everything, him to be traditionally what is said to be a man. And then there are other women who want to have all their freedom. Why would you assume you have to pay for me? I can pay for myself. So he comes to me and asks me, how am I supposed to navigate this? He’s also trying to find his self-worth and who he is. And I don’t think anybody wants to be… I know I don’t like to be around…
When I’m around people, men, women, anybody that I feel small around, I don’t feel great. So you’ve got powerful women, you’ve got young men who are becoming men who don’t know who they are and how do they show up? How do we have this conversation so that we can get out of the way and embrace what needs to happen, which is women being empowered, women having financial freedom, women being leaders in ma
th and companies and equal pay, and all of the stuff that we know has to happen to have balance. But it just doesn’t happen overnight. There has to be a process. And I think that there’s oftentimes not space held for the young men who are navigating these mixed messages.
Tori Dunlap (00:53:30):
Can I tell you a story?
Jamey Heath (00:53:31):
I’d love it.
Tori Dunlap (00:53:33):
So the guy I’ve started dating, first date, we’ve started talking about what we do, date goes really well, we’re the only ones in the restaurant. It’s lovely, I’ve met this guy at a bar. I’m thinking, this isn’t going to go well, it’s going great. Check comes. He knows what I do. He’s Googled me before this. He knows. He gets this look on his face and he goes, looks at the check, looks back up at me and he goes, “I would really like to pay, but I don’t want to offend you. Can I pay?” And I go, “Yes, you can pay. That’s fine. That’s lovely.” I think it’s communication. I think it’s-
Justin Baldoni (00:54:22):
I think that’s really, it’s a great point.
Tori Dunlap (00:54:24):
I think it’s having conversations because if we’re too scared to talk about all of the rest of the things in the relationship, our sexual compatibility, do we want kids or not? How are we going to communicate? All of these things, money should be part of that conversation. And of course, if you’re going to date me or be friends with me, that’s a give in, we’re going about money. But I think you’re exactly right, there’s a lot of women who are like, “Yeah, you’re paying for me and you’re paying for our dates and you’re paying to get my nails done.” And there’s other women who are insulted if you open a door. And I think both of those are valid. I see the part of it where men are paying because men have it easier and men probably have more money. But for me, uniquely, 99% of the men I date, I will outearn them.
So it was a beautiful, vulnerable moment. And it was actually, he got this look on his face and I go, “What’s going on? You want to talk to me?” And he was like, “I want to pay, but I don’t want to offend you.” And so it was that beautiful moment of vulnerability for both of us.
Justin Baldoni (00:55:30):
It’s a great moment.
Tori Dunlap (00:55:31):
Where he’s just, he was like, “This is important to me-“
Justin Baldoni (00:55:34):
I like him.
Tori Dunlap (00:55:35):
I do too.
Justin Baldoni (00:55:35):
I like him.
Tori Dunlap (00:55:36):
I do too. And it’s going to be different. It’s going be different. I do agree there’s mixed messages. And I do agree, because women are unique and we have our own unique experiences and I think we’re multidimensional. There are times where I’m like, yeah, I would actually really like a guy to pay for me and open my door for me and buy me flowers. I also want that man to see me for the woman I am. And for that providing or for that chivalry to be compatible with my independent lifestyle. I want that to be something that supports who I am and supports our relationship rather than the default or what our relationship is built on.
Jamey Heath (00:56:29):
Tori Dunlap (00:56:29):
I don’t have an answer.
Jamey Heath (00:56:32):
And I want my son to be one of those people that would show up that way for you. And I also know that my son, maybe my son’s a little bit different, hopefully I’ve raised him differently, but maybe many of his friends, more traditionally, may not be equipped with the tools to show up in the way that he should show up for you. To Justin’s point earlier, I think there’s some of that.
Justin Baldoni (00:56:53):
I love concrete ideas of things that people can do and listeners can do. And because I’ve heard men complain, I’ve heard men being very confused, all these mixed messages, and that’s a real thing, I think what you tapped into with NAC is a real thing. And I think that adult men are trying to figure it out.
So adult men, if you’re listening to this step outside of your comfort zone, be vulnerable with the woman and ask. Now I know short you’ve seen Casablanca and all these old movies where you just grab the woman and kiss her and you just do these things and there’s an energy, there’s a masculine energy to maybe this idea of what it means to be a man. But I would argue you can still have the masculine energy and be vulnerable and open and soft and say, “I’d love to pay. Is this okay with you?”
Liz Plank (00:57:51):
I think that’s more masculine than just taking the check, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:57:57):
That is so hot to me. Literally, that moment, The dat was already going well, and then that happened and I was like, oh.
Liz Plank (00:57:59):
Justin Baldoni (00:58:01):
But sometimes the answer, as complex as we make this conversation, sometimes there are simple answers. And I have never in my life been steered wrong or gone the wrong way when I have been vulnerable and asked a question in my marriage, or shared something. And I would just say to default to that, to just ask. It’s consent is very important in other areas, on the first date, what a great thing to talk about. I’m somebody that likes opening doors, does that make you feel weird or uncomfortable? What a great conversation starter. Because then you’re going deep, you’re going under the surface-
Tori Dunlap (00:58:38):
It’s important to me and I-
Liz Plank (00:58:38):
You’re explaining what it means to you, right?
Justin Baldoni (00:58:41):
It feels good, I want to… And then you’ll know right away. And guess what? That might save you a second or third date, because if you want to be with a woman who wants you to open the door for her and she’s like, “Oh, I’m offended.” Well then maybe that’s not the person for you. And maybe that’s a gift. And then you guys can become friends at the end of it. It doesn’t always have to be a bisexual conquest.
Tori Dunlap (00:59:00):
I feel like in any relationship, romantic or otherwise, there are handbooks for how I would like to be treated and for how I am going to treat you. And unless you give me a new handbook or you give me a new addendum-
Justin Baldoni (00:59:14):
Every person’s different.
Tori Dunlap (00:59:15):
I’m going to treat you how I treat… So literally we’re having conversations now, getting to know each other, where I’m like, how can I support you? What do you need? Do you just need to talk? Or do you want some advice? What do you need? And literally, and a half hour before we started recording we had this. And he was like, actually, I just need some reassurance that I’m on the right path sometimes.
Liz Plank (00:59:35):
And I can give an example. I went on a date with this guy. And I think asking questions is an opportunity to get to know each other more. Instead of seeing this as a challenge that’s, I’m confused, so I’m not going to, I’m going to pull back. It’s like no, lean in, ask and say what you like. I remember being on this date with this guy several years ago, and he was like, “I really like making your plate. I love when the food comes in, but I don’t want you to think, is that okay?” Because again, he Googled me too and I was like, “Oh, why do you want to do that?” And then when he explained it-
Justin Baldoni (01:00:09):
That’s such a loose follow up. I love it.
Liz Plank (01:00:10):
It made me like him more. He was like, “I just really feeding you and I just doing it for you. But if you want to do it yourself, I…” And I was like, “Yeah, make my plate. Do it.” It’s just an opportunity to get closer.
Justin Baldoni (01:00:22):
It’s okay if it feels good to be of service in some way. It’s okay-
Liz Plank (01:00:24):
Yes, and now I understand, as opposed to him just doing it. And then maybe that would’ve been like, oh, okay. Or-
Tori Dunlap (01:00:29):
He thinks I can’t do it for myself.
Liz Plank (01:00:31):
Yeah. But let’s just talk about it.
Justin Baldoni (01:00:32):
My dad still opens the door for my mom. I think that’s really, really sweet.
Liz Plank (01:00:35):
I open doors for everybody regardless of gender.
Tori Dunlap (01:00:37):
So you were on my podcast, Financial Feminist, and we talked about, there’s this interesting statistic that when they do the census data every year, men who make less than their women partners will lie and say they make more. And women who make more than their male partners will lie and say they make less.
So the guy I’ve started dating, he voice noted me this morning and was like, “Hey, I got to the part of this podcast where you were talking about, I thought it was really interesting.” And I go, “What are your thoughts and response to it?” And he goes, “I think it’s sad that they both have to lie about how much they make in order to perpetuate what society tells us. I used to find it a little intimidating to be with someone who makes more than I do. That’s of course not saying I don’t want to make a living. I know it’s just been a gradual process.” He’s struggling with what he wants to do next.
And so I was like, “How can I support you/reassure you?” And he goes, “I’m going to have some tough days. One thing I try to remind myself is that I’m doing what I love. I work some jobs where I hated working there and I’m working on only doing the things I love. So it would really help me if you could remind me from time to time that I’m doing what I love and that it’s a process.” I’m like, “I’m happy to do that and I’m happy to cheer you on.”
Liz Plank (01:01:38):
Oh my God, perfect interaction.
Justin Baldoni (01:01:41):
That made me a little emotional hearing that.
Jamey Heath (01:01:43):
Liz Plank (01:01:44):
What can I do to support you?
Tori Dunlap (01:01:44):
You cry, I’m going to cry.
Justin Baldoni (01:01:45):
I know. I just think, no, but look again, I get emotional when I see men step outside of their comfort zone and open up and be vulnerable because I know-
Tori Dunlap (01:01:53):
This started because of you, Justin, I want to acknowledge that. That conversation started because of you and because of your work.
Justin Baldoni (01:01:58):
I appreciate it. But what I’m feeling is that I know how hard it is for us men to do that. And I don’t think we, and the show’s called Man Eno
ugh for a reason. We want to make the lives of women and trans folks and queer folks better. We want to make the lives of other men and our families better. But at the end of the day, this was a journey that I took because I know how hard it is to be vulnerable. Because I know what’s at stake and I know that the world sets this up to feel like I’m a traitor to my own gender. That you’re going to reject me the second you can peek in and see that I don’t have it all together when I take my armor off, I’m vulnerable to you. I’m vulnerable to attack by other men.
And so when I see or hear a man do that, that’s a private message, which I rarely get to see from another woman that makes my heart just swell and sing, because I know how hard it was for him. And I appreciate that and you appreciate that. And that’s what I want men who are listening to understand this is not just some bogus thing where your vulnerability is going to be used against you with a woman. Sure that’s happened. Of course it’s happened, but it’s not going to happen all the time. It is the sexiest, strongest, most brave thing that you could ever do is to show who you are underneath your armor. And I just want to echo that and just say it again if you’re listening. And I appreciate that you shared that.
Liz Plank (01:03:22):
And your response is amazing, by the way.
Tori Dunlap (01:03:23):
Well, he’s giving me the handbook.
Justin Baldoni (01:03:25):
Oh my guys, yeah-
Tori Dunlap (01:03:25):
You guys are equally incredible.
Justin Baldoni (01:03:25):
Well, you made him feel safe.
Tori Dunlap (01:03:26):
He’s giving me the handbook, right? I’ve asked him for the handbook-
Liz Plank (01:03:28):
Yes, and you’re asking questions and you’re open-
Tori Dunlap (01:03:30):
And he’s giving it to me. And now I know how to love him best.
Liz Plank (01:03:32):
How can I support you is such a good question.
Justin Baldoni (01:03:35):
And the other way we’re true as a man, her response is something that us men can do for the women in our lives. Because you guys-
Liz Plank (01:03:42):
Yes, vice versa. Yeah.
Justin Baldoni (01:03:43):
I feel like you are more conditioned to be vulnerable. And we as men need to start creating those safe spaces where we can say, “Look, well, how can I help you on this Journey?”
Liz Plank (01:03:54):
How can I support you, is how can I provide and protect for us, right? By asking us what we want.
Justin Baldoni (01:04:01):
Exactly. That is-
Liz Plank (01:04:02):
What a wonderful opportunity-
Justin Baldoni (01:04:03):
It’s not assumed.
Liz Plank (01:04:03):
Exactly, and what person doesn’t love to hear that question and be able to tell you exactly
what they need.
Justin Baldoni (01:04:08):
And you know what the end result of all of this is? More intimacy, better sex, longer lasting relationship, which is at the end of the day, what we all want.
Final question, what do you think it means, and I already know what the answer’s going to be, I have a feeling, to be man enough?
Tori Dunlap (01:04:25):
Can you tell me the answer? Because I’m like, what is the answer?
Justin Baldoni (01:04:27):
Well, I will. I have a feeling you’re-
Tori Dunlap (01:04:28):
Well, I mean, it’s vulnerability. It’s the understanding that if men in any sort of relationship, romantic or otherwise, can be teammates and partners and stand alongside you, everything about the world changes. It’s the cry for help from women, but also I know the patriarchy hurts men just as much. And so if we can all come together and understand what it’s like to be vulnerable and what it’s like to support each other in this pursuit of that, rather than seeing each other as enemies or as a threat to that, something incredibly beautiful happens. So I think it’s the vulnerability and it’s the standing together and the opportunity to come together and be on the same team towards equality, towards better relationships, towards a better world.
Liz Plank (01:05:31):
Justin Baldoni (01:05:33):
Yeah. That’s it. Well, Tori, what I always say to the guests is that you are enough, but you already know that, so I don’t have to.
Tori Dunlap (01:05:44):
It’s really nice to hear though. So thank you.
Justin Baldoni (01:05:48):
You are more than enough. May we all have the enoughness that you have.
Tori Dunlap (01:05:54):
Justin Baldoni (01:05:54):
The world would heal like that.
Liz Plank (01:05:58):
And thank you for using your enoughness to make other people feel like they’re enough.
Tori Dunlap (01:06:02):
This is what I was put on this earth to do. It’s my favorite thing.
Justin Baldoni (01:06:05):
Yeah, we can tell. We can tell.
Liz Plank (01:06:05):
Justin Baldoni (01:06:09):
That’s it. Thank you so much for flying out.
Tori Dunlap (01:06:10):
Liz Plank (01:06:11):
Do we do recurring guests? Because she’s my… I want a recurring-
Justin Baldoni (01:06:15):
If I ever can’t be here I think she should replace-
Liz Plank (01:06:16):
Did we get to any questions on this sheet?
Justin Baldoni (01:06:18):
No, no, no. Don’t worry about it.
Tori Dunlap (01:06:19):
This is what happened with you and I too, when you came on. We didn’t talk about one question I prepped.
Justin Baldoni (01:06:23):
Yeah, I just asked you a lot of questions about all kinds of stuff. And then I also want to say something I’ve been thinking about for the last 40 minutes is we were both getting very passionate, not against each other. And I was about to interrupt you and you had to stop me. And I’m sorry for that.
Liz Plank (01:06:33):
I don’t remember.
Justin Baldoni (01:06:34):
I know, I do. I think about, so I just wanted you to know that it wasn’t-
Tori Dunlap (01:06:38):
I’m bad at interrupting, too, and I’m sorry.
Justin Baldoni (01:06:38):
Well, it was… We’re at this point we’re also, we’re family now. But you were having a point. And I think I was just getting ahead, so I love you. So with that, thank you so much for listening to the MAN Enough podcast. Where can they find us, Liz Plank?
Liz Plank (01:06:51):
Manenough.com/bodcast. Bodcast. Yeah, go on bodcast.com. It’s my bodcast. That’s how I get to a million. I do a bodcast. Manenough.com/podcast, that’s where you can find everything, all the episodes.
Justin Baldoni (01:07:05):
And Liz Plank‘s going to have her own mini series podcasts coming out very soon, which we’re going to support-
Liz Plank (01:07:10):
I’m freezing my eggs. I know.
Justin Baldoni (01:07:13):
We’re going to support, she’s talking about freezing her eggs and maybe Jamey Heath will talk more in the next episode.
Liz Plank (01:07:20):
Thank you for listening, Jamey.
Jamey Heath (01:07:21):
It’s such a pleasure to listen.
Liz Plank (01:07:23):
I hope you’ll bring back all that wisdom to your son.
Jamey Heath (01:07:26):
I will indeed.
Justin Baldoni (01:07:27):
He’s a special boy. We’ll see you next time. This is Man Enough.
Jamey Heath (01:07:33):
Thank you for listening to The Man Enough podcast produced by Wayfarer Studios and presented by Proctor & Gamble. In partnership with Cadence13, an Odyssey company. Hosted by Justin Baldoni, Liz Plank, and me, Jamey Heath. If you like what you heard, please follow us and tune in weekly as we undefine masculinity and learn in real time. Justin Baldoni, Jamey Heath, and Tara Maholtra Feinberg from Wayfarer Studios. Mark Pritchard and Anna Southfield from Proctor & Gamble and Chris Corcoran and Cadence13 are our executive producers. Kayla Nicholson is our producer, Ashme Elizabeth Dang is head of Marketing. And Susie Landers O’Conn
ell is our lead editor. Thanks for listening.
Tori Dunlap (01:08:18):
Thank you to the entire Man Enough team. I flew out to LA for this episode. It was a whole production. We had a full production crew off set. I was watching other guests come in and out and being like, I know that person. I’ve seen them on television. It was very, very cool and such an honor to get to talk to three people whose work I deeply admire and respect. And we just had the best time. If you enjoyed this, make sure to follow Man Enough on all of their social media accounts. You can also watch the YouTube version. The entire interview is up on YouTube. So if you want to see the kind of back and forth, see the set, you can go to YouTube and see this entire interview in video form.
And since this is the last episode before my book comes out, please consider grabbing a copy of this labor of love. And I just so appreciate truly your support. I have talked about this before, but I have had a dream since I was seven or eight years old of writing a book. And little did I know it was going to be a finance book, but this has been a project that I’ve literally worked on for four to five years. It is the physical manifestation of so much work that myself and my team have put into this movement.
You don’t write a book expecting to make money, right? Books are sold for about $22. You get 15% of that $22 per sale. And you can do the math on that, right? You’re not selling a book in order to make money. You’re selling a book because it’s an accessible medium that hopefully will impact people. And for me, it’s to fulfill a promise that I made when I was a young kid who couldn’t get her nose out of any book. Who was just voraciously reading constantly.
So this book is for you. It is to hopefully impact your life, impact your money to teach you step by step, how to overcome the patriarchal narratives that have been perpetuated for you to overcome your financial trauma, for you to start paying off debt, learn how to save money, learn how to invest, learn how to advocate for yourself at work and beyond all of that, learn how to create a Financial Feminist lifestyle in your everyday choices. How to vote with your dollars. How to enact social change. And so much work went into this book because I know it has the power to change your life. If you can’t afford a $22 copy either, again, E-book, audio book, physical book, there should be copies at your local library as well. I don’t want there to be a financial barrier for you getting this information. So please find a copy somewhere. Either purchase a copy, go to your local library.
We cannot thank you enough for your support of this movement, this podcasting, this podcast led to this book. So I’m so excited to see all your takeaways and all of your learnings, and for you to finally have it in your hands. That is what I’m most looking forward to. Is literally physically getting to hold the baby, hold my baby that I’ve been contributing to and molding and shaping for you all. And I hope it makes an impact, and I hope it changes your life. I’m so proud of this book and I hope you love it as much as I do. Have a lovely holiday season, Financial Feminist, and we’ll catch you later.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and Administration by Karina Patel, Olivia Coning, Cherise Wade, Alena Helzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko, Jack Coning, and Ana Alexandra. Research by Ariel Johnson. Audio Engineering by Austin Fields. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton. Photography by Sarah Wolfe. And theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests, episode show notes, and our upcoming book, also titled Financial Feminist, visit herfirst100k.com.