Be the first to know when we launch Business Bootcamp Live! https://herfirst100k.com/biz-waitlist
Retirement isn’t the end goal…
it’s the outdated notion keeping you from living fully right now.
What if everything you’ve been told about retirement is a lie? For years, we’ve been sold the idea that we should grind it out for 40+ years and finally start enjoying life at 65 — but what if that model is broken? In this episode, I’m joined by author and financial coach Jillian Johnsrud to talk about why the traditional retirement plan is failing us and how mini-retirements can give you freedom, fulfillment, and even more money along the way. We’re unpacking exactly how to afford extended breaks, how to negotiate time off without tanking your career, and why rest is one of the smartest investments you can make.
Key takeaways:
The traditional retirement model is outdated and unrealistic.
Jillian challenges the belief that we can delay all our dreams until age 65. Many experiences have a “season” — like traveling with your parents, road-tripping with your kids, or doing physically demanding adventures — and if you wait until later in life, those windows may close. She also warns that pensions are rare, costs are rising, and we may be working longer than past generations, making it even more important to enjoy meaningful breaks along the way.
Mini-retirements are not career killers — they’re career accelerators.
Taking time off between jobs, or negotiating a break, can boost your earning potential. Jillian shares stories of people returning from a mini-retirement to significantly higher salaries because they reset, re-skilled, or simply left an underpaid role. A well-planned break can make you more energized, creative, and competitive in your field.
Affording a mini-retirement is more possible than you think.
Jillian recommends budgeting based on your current monthly expenses plus about 50% more. She emphasizes starting small — like a one-month break — and choosing experiences that match your lifestyle and season of life. Front-load affordable and high-impact adventures early, and consider “à la carte budgeting” for specific experiences to make saving feel tangible.
Negotiation is key when asking for extended time off.
Approach your boss with a positive, specific, one-time story (like cooking in Italy or hiking with family), plus proposed solutions for coverage. Positioning the alternative as potentially leaving your role reframes the conversation — replacing an employee is far more costly and disruptive than accommodating time off.
Rest is essential, not indulgent.
Jillian reframes rest as an investment, comparing it to halftime in sports — essential to show up stronger in the second half. She warns against waiting until burnout forces a break and encourages building mini-retirements into your career rhythm so they’re proactive, not reactive.
Even if you can’t take a full mini-retirement now, you can practice the mindset.
Try “mini-retirement light” by simulating adventures in your own community, adjusting your schedule to experience longer breaks, or practicing the skills you’d use on a bigger trip. The key is building readiness and motivation so you can seize the opportunity when it comes.
Notable quotes
“Replacing somebody is a lot more expensive and riskier than figuring out how to give them time off.”
“You have a season in life to do a thing, and if you don’t do it then, it’s not going to wait until you’re 65.”
“If you take a month off, and you come back 10% faster than everyone else, you don’t win 10% more races, you win all the races.
Episode-at-a-glance
≫ 03:19 – Rethinking Traditional Retirement
≫ 06:27 – Mini Retirements as Career Accelerators
≫ 08:39 – How to Actually Plan and Afford a Mini Retirement
≫ 12:29 – Negotiating Time Off with Your Employer
≫ 16:66 – The Demonization of Rest & Hustle Culture
≫ 19:41 – Mini Retirements as a Workplace Benefit
≫ 21:55 – Proactive vs. Reactive Breaks: Making Rest a Habit
≫ 24:28 – Burnout, Recovery, and Realistic Expectations
Jillian’s Links:
Website: https://retireoften.com/
Book: https://lnk.to/retireoften
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jillianjohnsrud/
Planning worksheet: https://retireoften.com/mini/
Negotiating worksheet: https://retireoften.com/onemonth/
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Squarespace
Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase.
Indeed
Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com/FFPOD.
Rocket Money
Stop wasting money on things you don’t use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com/FFPOD.
Quince
For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince. Go to Quince.com/FFPOD for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.
Netsuite
Download the CFO’s Guide to AI and Machine Learning at NetSuite.com/FFPOD.
Saily
Get an exclusive 15% discount on Saily eSIM data plans! Go to Saily.com/FFPOD download the Saily app and use code ‘FFPOD’ at checkout.
Masterclass
Get at least 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/FFPOD.
Zocdoc
Visit Zocdoc.com/FFPOD to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today.
RESOURCES:
Looking for accountability, live coaching, and deeper financial education? Join the $100K Club
Register for our free investing workshop: https://herfirst100k.com/secrets
Feeling Overwhelmed? Start here!
Our HYSA Partner Recommendation (terms apply)
Behind the Scenes and Extended Clips on Youtube
Leave Financial Feminist a Voicemail
Financial Feminist on Instagram
Take our FREE Money Personality Quiz
Meet Jillian
Jillian Johnsrud never expected to be able to retire early, so she hatched a plan to retire often. Inspired by the idea of sabbatical years, she set out to sprinkle retirements throughout her life. At 40, she has taken over a dozen mini-retirements. These allowed her to pursue dreams like living abroad, traveling to 27 countries, adopting four kids (plus two biological kids), investing in real estate, and touring the U.S. in a camper. Jillian has taught, coached, and wrote about mini-retirements for almost a decade. She hosts the Retire Often podcast and is a popular speaker and consultant for mini retirements. She lives in Montana, where she spends time in the garden drinking tea.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
What if you could take a real break from work? We’re not just talking a vacation that’s a week long, but months, if not years, and still come back to a career you love. I’m talking to author and financial coach, Jillian Johnsrud, and she is an expert on what’s called mini-retirements.
Jillian Johnsrud:
Taking the time between jobs to help find a better job can massively increase their lifetime earning potential.
Tori Dunlap:
Short-term, intentional breaks from work that help you recharge your energy, build a better career, and finally do the things you’ve been putting off for some day.
Jillian Johnsrud:
A mini-retirement can help you not just rest and recover from burnout, but have motivation.
Tori Dunlap:
We’re breaking down how you can afford it, how to negotiate time off without blowing things up with your boss, and why rest is one of the smartest investments you can make if you want to make more money and actually protect your peace. I don’t know about you, but when I first started my career at 22, and realized that that was what I was going to be doing, sitting in a windowless office, hating my life for the next 40 years, I wanted out and realized I couldn’t.
Jillian Johnsrud:
You’re building skills or you’re investing in yourself in a way that will continue to pay dividends for the rest of our lives.
Tori Dunlap:
Mini-retirements are the answer to us feeling stressed out and overwhelmed by hustle culture, and they’re more doable than you think. So if you’ve ever wondered how you can actually take meaningful time off work before you’re 65, this is the episode for you.
Before we get into the episode today, I wanted to share something really, really exciting with you. If you’ve ever wanted to be a business owner or take your side hustle to the next level, I’m bringing back my signature business bootcamp program with my friend and fellow entrepreneur, Mallory Rowan. If you’ve considered yourself an entrepreneur and you know that corporate life is not for you, you don’t like your job, you don’t like the mission of the company you’re working for, you hate commutes, you hate having to sit at a desk for 40+ hours a week, then this is for you. If you are stuck figuring out what your offer should be, how to get your business off the ground, and how to scale it, this bootcamp is for you. We’re helping you go from idea to income in 90 days or less. More details coming soon, but for now, you can go to herfirst100k.com/biz-waitlist to get all of the information first. That’s biz-waitlist, and we’d love to see you there.
But first a word from our sponsors.
So you say that mini-retirements aren’t just about rest, they’re rocket fuel for your life and your career. What’s so powerful about pressing pause and taking a mini-retirement?
Jillian Johnsrud:
Well, a mini-retirement can be like a Swiss Army Knife. It can fulfill a lot of different functions. So for a lot of people, it’s one of the best ways to increase their lifetime earning potential, to get substantial raises. I mean, in our current economy, that traditional model of you’re going to work 40 years in the same career, in the same company, and you’re going to get a pension, and then you’re going to retire for the rest of your life, that’s just not a reality anymore.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Jillian Johnsrud:
So your best chance to get a substantial raise, to get a substantial promotion is by switching careers. And if you can take, between jobs, between employment, if you can take a break and rest and recover and come back awesome and 100%, and do even better in your next job, I think this is the model moving forward, of frequent breaks, frequent rest. Invest in yourself, in your health, in your career, in your education, in your financial life, and then go back to the next thing.
Tori Dunlap:
Can you paint a picture of what your life looked like before mini-retirements? What did it look like day to day? How were you feeling before doing this?
Jillian Johnsrud:
So this was my plan from the beginning. I got married when I was 19. My ex and I, we had $55,000 of debt and we went into low earning professions, so that’s a winning combination. So I never had any aspirations to retire early because I didn’t think that was even possible. That seemed craziness to me. So the idea was always, what if we took these mini-retirements? What if we took little sabbaticals? Because we had these big goals and these dreams that I knew weren’t going to fit alongside a nine-to-five, stuff that we couldn’t do in nights and weekends. So this was always the plan. It probably took about five years, though, before we got to do our first one because we had to pay through all of that debt, build an emergency fund, start investing, just get those basic financials in order.
Tori Dunlap:
You had mentioned this idea of the traditional retirement, and I want to spend some time on that because I remember my first job out of college, I was 22, so I am very young. I’m in my first job and probably six months in, I’m like, “Am I supposed to do this for the next 40 years? Is this my life for the next 40 years?” And I think almost everybody listening feels that way. And to your point, traditional retirement, the way we view it as society, it is, okay, you work really, really hard for those 40 years, and then, hopefully, maybe you get to retire on a beach with a pension. But what are we getting wrong about traditional retirement as a society?
Jillian Johnsrud:
I think one of the big errors and fallacies is that I can postpone all of these goals, all of these dreams, all these things that matter to me until I’m 65, and that’ll work out great. It won’t. I mean, there’s a lot of things that… You have a season in life to do a thing, and if you don’t do it then, it’s not going to wait till you’re 65. And that might be sleeping in youth hostels, that might be hiking the Camino, that might be doing a big road trip with your kids when they’re little, that might be traveling with your spouse before you have kids, or going to Ireland and hiking with your parents. There’s all these things you might want to do and you can’t push them all until you’re 65. They’ll have passed you by.
Tori Dunlap:
And I think there’s this kind of belief that, “Oh, I’ll be financially well when I’m 65,” or “I’ll rely on government programs or, again, pensions.” And I’m like, “I don’t think I know anybody with a pension,” especially in my generation. Is anybody getting a pension? I don’t think so. And even the people who are, I think, feel like those pensions are constantly threatened of-
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
… is this actually going to be fulfilled? So, financially, what are we getting wrong about waiting until we’re 65 in order to experience life?
Jillian Johnsrud:
There is a real risk, especially as our economy changes. Our wages versus our cost of living are different than they were 30 years ago, and they might continue to be different. So I think this hope of you’ll absolutely, you’re guaranteed to be able to retire at 65, that might not be true. It might not be true now, but it definitely might not be true in 20 years.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Jillian Johnsrud:
And our lifespans are increasing. You might be working till 70 or 75. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if in 40 years, there’s a lot of 80-year-olds still in the workforce in some capacity. And so, if you’re going to be working longer, why not take smaller breaks? Why not enjoy those little moments of a month, three months here and there, in each decade of your life so that when you’re 65 or 70, you’re not like, “Oh my gosh, I have to catch up on an entire lifetime of experiences that I’ve let past me by.” You’re like, “No, I did a whole bunch of really cool crap. Every three or four years, I took a month off or three months off, and I’ve got these 20 cool adventures that I did.” I’m very content continuing to work part-time or to do consulting or to do all these different things that not only bring in money. But when you’re 65, 70, if you can let the money that you’ve invested continue to compound for another five years, it can make a radical difference in how much you have as that yearly income in retirement.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally. We just talked about this on another episode, but I think so many people get to 65, or in their 40s or 50s and trying to save for retirement, and they go, “Well, I only have until I’m 65.” No, you don’t. You’re not taking all your money out the day after you quit your job. You’re not liquidating all of your money from the stock market. You have an additional five, 10, maybe 15, 20 years, depending on how long you live, to be able to continue to allow compound interest to work for you. So I think that’s a really important distinction. Okay. So, what’s the actual difference between a sabbatical and a mini-retirement? Is there a distinction? Are they two sides of the same coin?
Jillian Johnsrud:
So there’s a lot of different names you can use, and I think they all have slightly different connotations to different people. Whether you call it a gap year, people might assume that’s a year, or a sabbatical, like you’re going to come back to a profession hiatus, a career break, a micro retirement. So whatever word works for you, go with that. Whatever you’re like, “I’m resonating with this one.” I define a mini-retirement… I like it because it’s the most neutral. It doesn’t have a ton of connotations, but as a month or longer, stepping away from your primary career, your nine-to-five. And then the third thing, to focus on something that matters to you. So if you get those three elements, I think that’s what really unlocks something that can be life-changing.
Tori Dunlap:
One of the fascinating things from your book is the idea that mini-retirements aren’t just a break from life, they’re career accelerators. And you were mentioning this too. Can we talk about how taking this break might feel counterintuitive, like, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to take time off work, I’m not going to make money potentially, or I am not going to get that promotion because I didn’t reach my four-year mark, or whatever”? How is this actually something that can launch your career further and make you more money long term?
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yeah. There’s a number of different ways you can utilize this. And one of the reasons I quote the book Retire Often versus take one epic mini-retirement is that, by doing this frequently, you can give a different purpose to every mini-retirement. So you don’t have to do 20 different things in one, and you can do 20 different things just 20 different times. So, for some people, taking the time between jobs to help find a better job, a better paying job, a better fitting job, can massively increase their lifetime earning potential.
I had a friend who took a year off, and when he came back to his next job, it was a 50% increase over his last pay, which you’re like, “Oh my gosh, that’s an amazing win. Nay, nay.” Why did he get a 50% increase? Because he had been at the last company for 15 years, so he had been underpaid, under his market value for years and years and years. So being a little bit of a numbers geek, let’s say he was making 100,000 before, and he came back at 150. For eight years, he left $400,000 on the table. Even if his year off cost him 100,000, that’s $300,000. Okay. If you’re 40, and invest an extra $300,000, not only was your life a little bit more boring because you didn’t get to do all these cool things, but you’re probably a million dollars poorer. So that’s a big factor.
Another one, especially for women, if you feel like you have a lot of obligations outside of your nine-to-five, if you have a lot of family, or just other things that demand your time, is it can be harder compared to your colleagues who maybe have less demands on their time to do additional training, to do additional certifications, to take classes, to read books, to listen to the podcast and implement, to do the therapy, to do all the things that would make you even better and more qualified at your job. You might just not have the same access. So giving yourself this break to focus on those things and create more quality can be massively helpful.
And the third big thing is that sometimes we just get tired. I think, especially as women, we get tired.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes, yes.
Jillian Johnsrud:
And a mini-retirement can help you not just rest and recover from burnout, but have motivation, have excitement, have creativity, have enthusiasm, that you can bring that energy to work. And I liken it to, if you run a 400-meter race, if you do something, let’s say you take a month off, and you come back 10% faster, 10% faster than everyone else, you don’t win 10% more races, you win all the races. And in some professions, being 10% better matters a lot, and it matters in your income and it matters in your career progression, and it matters in your sales. Sometimes being the best is a huge advantage to you professionally and financially.
Tori Dunlap:
Even if you’re just 10% better than you were the month before.
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yep, yep.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. So, how do we actually do this? That’s my simple question. Practically, how do we actually do this? Because I can hear the listener who’s going, “Yeah, but this isn’t for me. I can’t do this. I can’t take time off work. My boss will never allow it.” How do I actually plan to do this in a way where I’m not going to lose a bunch of money and where it actually feels fulfilling?
Jillian Johnsrud:
Okay. Do we want to start financial or career, because I think those are usually people’s two big questions? How do I afford it, or how do I take the time off?
Tori Dunlap:
I mean, let’s definitely do both, but let’s do maybe financial first.
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
This conversation is already so good, and I’m interested to know if you’re someone who’s considered taking a sabbatical or a mini-retirement. If you’re listening on Spotify, let us know in the comments, or if you’re watching on YouTube.
When we come back, we’re talking about the logistics of planning for mini-retirements, including how to start small, how to talk to your employer about taking that mini-retirement, and how to start implementing this idea sooner rather than later. We’ll be right back.
Jillian Johnsrud:
So I have this radical belief that mini-retirements are accessible for basically everyone. If you’ve figured out your finances to where you can pay your bills month to month, you can probably afford to do this. They’re less expensive than people usually imagine. I would say your max budget should be covering your monthly expenses, so whatever your take-home pay is plus an additional 50%. So if you only bring home 2,000, you should have that 2,000 plus an extra thousand. Where, if you are bringing home 10,000, you need to cover that 10,000 plus an extra 5,000 to pay for this mini-retirement adventure. So one of the reasons they’re affordable is that it scales.
And usually, people who bring home 2,000 are used to that lifestyle and that standard of living, and people who make 10,000 are used to that lifestyle and that standard of living. So you’re doing things that fit what you normally do anyway. So if you bring home 2,000, should you take an $80,000 around the world cruise? Maybe not. Maybe that’s not the thing for you. Maybe it’s road trip, maybe you learn guitar, maybe you plant a garden. There’s lots of really cool things. I took a month off last year and I learned tango for a month, and it was amazing. I gave myself $1,000 budget and I spent a whole month learning tango, and I’m so obsessed. I’m so obsessed with it.
Tori Dunlap:
I realize I’m doing a mini-retirement in February. I’m taking a month off to go to Italy and do-
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
… a cooking intensive. And I wouldn’t have phrased that as a mini-retirement, but you’ve just made me do that. So I love that. Yeah, that’s what I’m planning on doing, is I’m taking a whole month off. I’m not working at all and I’m going to go learn to cook in Italy. I’m so excited. I’m so excited.
Jillian Johnsrud:
It’s so fun, but also that’s… Both of these are really great examples of these are an investment in your life moving forward. You’re building skills or you’re investing in yourself in a way that will continue to pay dividends. Learning to dance or learning to cook, super useful for the rest of our lives.
Tori Dunlap:
And also, just joyful and fun.
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yes.
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. Anything other financial that we need to think about?
Jillian Johnsrud:
So, on the financial, so I would think about that, especially if you’re starting out and you’re earlier in your financial journey. I would think through, what are 20 cool adventures you would want to do? What are 20 things that would be interesting or useful or beneficial? Front-load the affordable ones. The around-the-world cruise, you can totally do that when you’re 70. 70-year-olds love to go on cruises. Do the affordable ones. Do the ones that fit into the season of life.
In my 20s, I did a cross-country road trip, DC to Seattle and back, with my best friend in my green Honda Civic, and we camped and we slept on people’s couches, and it was so fun, and I’m totally not doing that again. I’m really glad I did it in my 20s, but I’m 42, I don’t sleep on the frozen ground anymore. And my body requires vegetables, so I can’t just eat popcorn from a gas station.
Tori Dunlap:
Totally. Diet Cokes. Just 10 diet Cokes a day. Yeah, totally.
Jillian Johnsrud:
So front-load the affordable ones, but also, you can front-load the ones that are going to help you get a better job, that are going to increase your earning potential, or the ones that are just going to make you more money. If you want to start a side hustle, and if you would love to have a month off or three months off to really help scale that up, do that one in your 20s, because you might not want to do that one at 65. You can front-load the ones that are most useful, and then create, I call it, a dream à la carte budget.
If you have this adventure of like… Let’s say for my tango, I was like, “Okay, I’m going to do group lessons. I’m going to do private lessons. I’m going to go to this tango festival. I’m going to buy tango shoes.” I listed out all of these expenses. I put that in just a spreadsheet, because then, as you’re… not even saving money, as you’re reallocating money, it’s not towards this huge $3,000 goal or $10,000 goal. You’re like, “Yeah, I’m going to skip my boring Chipotle burrito bowl that I get every Friday, because next year I’m going to be in Mexico learning Spanish and eating street tacos.” So I’m going to trade this one for that one, and it feels a little bit more tangible. And you can see, “Hey, actually, I wasn’t sure if I wanted to take this dog-sitting gig this weekend, but if I do, that would buy my plane ticket from Frankfurt to Paris. So yeah, yeah, I’ll totally do that.”
Tori Dunlap:
Okay. So that leads me to career. Am I going into my boss’s office and being like, “Ding-dong, give me a month off”? How does this work? What do I do?
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yeah. So there’s three ways that you can get this time off. You can negotiate it off from your employer, and I think that’s a great place to start. I always suggest starting with a month. I mean, some people jump into mini-retirement. “I’m going to do two years in my first round.” You can totally just start with a month. So you can negotiate it off. You can take time off in between jobs. Either you don’t have something lined up if it’s a little bit longer, or you’ve gotten your next job and you just ask to delay that start a little bit, which can be great if you’re nervous about finding your next job or something unexpected can happen. Life can throw you a curveball, usually bad, and you might be suddenly unemployed, and you’re like, “Hey, let’s pivot this to a mini-retirement,” in which case I have a mini-retirement go bag idea that we can talk about.
But if you want to negotiate it off, do not make this your boss’s problem. They have enough problems, they’re busy, and their plate is full, and they have their own damn job to do. This is not also their job. So you have to do the emotional labor. You have to do the mental labor of what are all the challenges and come up with solutions. Think about those challenges, and then honestly, in this process, articulate that for them. Sometimes people are hesitant to tell you what the problem is. So if you articulate the problem for them, you can move faster into this creative, collaborative space where you’re problem solving. But the first thing I have people do is come up with their mini-retirement story because you want to create this narrative. You want to frame the story in the way that’s true, but also helpful for you, because you don’t want them to rely on whatever their assumptions are.
And so, I have people… like four things. It has to be positive. You can’t go in and be like, “I’m so burned out and I cannot look at any of you all’s ugly faces anymore. I need a month off.” We need to make it a positive story. Ideally, interesting, like learning cooking in Italy, super interesting. Not just like, “Ah, I want to go home and watch Netflix.” And then specific, which is something sometimes people don’t think about. But instead of, “I just want to spend more time with my kids,” saying something like, “I…” Something that I had done, I did a 10-week road trip to 10 national parks with my kids. It’s a very specific way that we’re spending more quality time together. And then ideally, something that feels like a one-time event. For my 50th birthday, I’m going to go run this triathlon, or I’m going to go hike the Camino, or I’m taking cooking classes in Italy, or I’m going to volunteer with Habitat for Humanity. You’re not like, “Yeah, people hike Kilimanjaro every year.” No, they probably do that once, and it’s awesome, and then they move on with their lives.
So, if you frame those four elements, if possible, and it can sound like… For example, if you went and said, “Hey, so my parents, when they retired, they always planned to bike through France, and that’s been a big dream for them. As you know, my dad passed away a few years ago, but my mom is turning 60 this year, and she’s set to retire. I would love to be able to do this trip with her while she’s still young and healthy and have this really great quality time with her. I have a week of PTO. I would need an extra three weeks. I can take that off unpaid in order to accomplish this and have this experience with my mom.” And then you just say, “I know that there’s some of these challenges, but I’ve also come up with a bunch of solutions that I think we can work through this.” And when you frame it that way, like you’re talking to another human, it’s another being that has similar goals and values and dreams as you, and it’s real tough for them to be like, “Nah, let’s not.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right. How do you position it in a way that isn’t just, “I’m giving more work to my favorite coworker,” or “They’re going to have to cover me for those three weeks,” or even if it’s a longer period of time, “Oh, you’re going to have to hire somebody to replace me”? How do we think about… Do we present that to our boss, like, “I’ve already thought about the distribution of labor”? How do we go about thinking that way?
Jillian Johnsrud:
I think it is important to think through the logistics of how can this work. What are different solutions? And you don’t have to come in with a buttoned-up plan, “Here’s my 100-point slideshow of how exactly this is going to work,” but enough to show, “I know that this is going to create some challenges, but I have all of these potential solutions.” And if you think you might get a little resistance, and if you’re really committed to this, you can very subtly slide in the possibility that the alternative is you leaving, because that changes the equation, because they’re not picking between you going on a mini-retirement and that being inconvenient, or I say no and nothing changes. Either you go on a mini-retirement, and that’s a little bit inconvenient, or I have to replace you, and that’s super inconvenient. And your job is to make your mini-retirement the easiest, cheapest, simplest solution of the two.
Tori Dunlap:
No, that’s very smart because, yeah, replacing somebody is a lot more expensive, especially if the person’s great, and everybody listening does their job great. So yeah, it’s a lot harder, especially as I’m speaking as an employer, a lot harder to replace somebody than it is to potentially figure out a solution. Exactly.
Jillian Johnsrud:
And riskier. It’s more expensive and there’s risk. And this is a hang-up sometimes people have about negotiating it off, is they’re like, “I’m too important. My work’s too essential. Nobody can do what I can do. Nobody can cover this.” And I had a CFO at an event I spoke at being like, “I would love a month off. I desperately need a month off, but there’s no way they would give me a month off because I’m too important.” And I was like, “Yeah, cool, cool, cool. If you left, how long would it take to replace you because that’s a really important role? That’s really hard.” He’s like, “Ugh. Yeah, that’s probably six months.” I’m like, “Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And when they find someone, how long does it take to get them up to speed to hopefully produce 80% of what you’re doing?” He’s like-
Tori Dunlap:
At least another six months.
Jillian Johnsrud:
… “That’s a long learning curve. Another six months.” And I’m like, “Okay.” So they could either give you a month off, or they could take a year of this position not being fully filled and functional.
Tori Dunlap:
And the stress of that year. Totally.
Jillian Johnsrud:
And they might suck. The new person might not be as good as you. And so, there are, for people, I think, that they’re like, “I’m too important.” In reality, if you couldn’t go into work tomorrow for whatever reason, they have to come up with some solution. There has to be some possible solution that might not be as awesome as you being there, but there is a path forward.
Tori Dunlap:
When we come back, we’re talking about one of the biggest blocks we face going into time off, the demonization of rest and the prevalence of hustle culture. Thank you for supporting our sponsors. They allow us to do this show for you for free. We’ll be right back.
So one of the things that we experienced just living under capitalism is that rest equals laziness, or that rest is bad, and especially as Americans, I think that this is in our DNA. You go to Europe and they’re taking three-hour lunches, and it doesn’t fucking matter. But how do we get over that or work through that, knowing that everything in our bodies and in our brains is going, “You didn’t deserve this time off”? How do you think you are taking a month or six weeks off?
Jillian Johnsrud:
I think there is this narrative, and it’s especially prominent in certain communities. I grew up in a farming, ranching community where literally 100 years ago, if you didn’t work hard all the time, everyone died. That was just a reality. You starved [inaudible 00:28:56]-
Tori Dunlap:
You froze to death.
Jillian Johnsrud:
… Oregon Trail. Yeah. Yes, dysentery on the trail. Yeah. And culturally, there’s these strong narratives around work, and that’s one way to look at things. And I think that was a way that really was important 100 years ago, 200 years ago. That was a very helpful mindset that worked for our great-grandparents, and maybe it worked for our grandparents, and maybe it worked really well for our parents, but it’s not the only way to look at the situation.
In high school, I played basketball, and we do a halftime every game. Every single player does a halftime. And you don’t take this break because you’re weak. You don’t take it because you’re lazy. You don’t take it because you’re uncommitted to the outcome or you don’t care about the game. You take it because it’s the opposite of all of that, because you’re so passionate about the game, because you’re so committed to the outcome, because you’re so motivated that you know this is essential. If you want to show up in the second half and bring your absolute best, this is what you need to do to show up in that manner.
And it’s an opportunity, I think, for a lot of people professionally. You need to rest, but you need to reimagine what this second half is going to look like, because I’ve definitely been in basketball games where you’re losing the whole first half and you’re super discouraged, and it’s really hard to be like, emotionally, “We’re going to turn this thing around and we’re going to show up as a different version of ourselves in the halftime, in a 30-second timeout.” You need a couple of minutes to regroup and reimagine what this can look like. And professionally, it can be so important. If you really care about your outcomes, if you really care about your work and the cause and your financial life, why would you show up as the B-minus version of yourself? I think there’s this temptation to be like, “There’s a lot of honor in suffering, and I can just keep going.”
Tori Dunlap:
[inaudible 00:31:15]. Yeah.
Jillian Johnsrud:
“I can just keep going. I’m doing okay. You know what? It’s actually not that bad. I’m showing up at work. I’m doing pretty good work.” And to be-
Tori Dunlap:
No one’s noticed. Yeah.
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yeah. Not to just be content with that, but to feel good about showing up as this really tired, burned out, discouraged version of ourselves, that’s somehow better, better for us, better for people around us. If you get injured working out at the gym, there’s a type of person that’s like, “I’m just going to keep going. I’m just going to keep doing that exercise. It screws up my shoulder. I’m going to push through it.” And then there’s another person that says, “Huh, I got injured. Maybe I should take a couple of weeks off and recover, and then come back to the gym at 100%, so that I don’t just spend my whole life injured and limping through it.”
Tori Dunlap:
And in pain. Totally.
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
You have this amazing idea for how employers and business owners can implement mini-retirements into job structures as a benefit.
Jillian Johnsrud:
Mm-hmm.
Tori Dunlap:
We at Her First 100K actually offer a week off, paid quarterly, and then unlimited PTO to our full-time staff. And I say unlimited PTO, knowing that some people are going to be like, “Nobody takes time off.” They do. This is not a startup unlimited PTO, or no one actually takes time off. What do think would happen if every employee in the US got a paid month off a year? Because that’s what we end up doing. We give a week paid off a quarter, so they guarantee get a month off. So, the 12th of the year, they’re not working. So, how would that change work, burnout, performance retention? How would that change everything?
Jillian Johnsrud:
I think it would change everything. I mean, there’s so many. I put a whole chapter in the book of just real quick, 10 ideas of how this isn’t just good for your employees, it’s good for you as an employer. You mentioned retention. So if you imagine a person knows they’re going to get a month off every year, as long as they work there, those people start… They start planning this out, like, “Hey, how about next year, what if we take the whole family to Mexico? That would be really cool. The year after that, we could do that cooking class in Italy. And oh my gosh, you know what? Then my parents, they’re probably going to be retiring. What if we did a hiking trip through Ireland with them?” And all of a sudden they’ve got the next seven years.
They’re not just leaving you as an employer. They’re leaving those dreams, all of those things that they’ve imagined that they’re excited about. If they walk away from your company, they’re walking away from all of that possibility. And so, there’s a lot of in the creativity and the performance and the excitement, and the engagement, but also in the cross-training and in the resilience of your teams and in your company. In every company, there are some people who gather up all of the information and know all of the things, and do all of the things. And they’re amazing and they’re such high performers, and we love them, but it makes everyone around them slightly more incompetent. And the only way we’re going to distribute that information and that skill set is if we pluck these high performers out and kick them out for a month and make everyone else step up and learn the things.
Tori Dunlap:
No, it’s so true. I didn’t think about that.
Jillian Johnsrud:
But then, your company’s more resilient because it’s not just one person who knows all of the things. You have that motivation and you have that deadline to transfer that information. Let’s say you have an employee that you’re thinking about promoting into a role, but you’re not 100% sure if they can do it, well, the person who has that role, send him on a mini-retirement for a month, and give this person a chance. Let them take over 60% of that person’s role for the next month. See how they do. Test it out. Sample it before you make the commitment.
And it’s good for those employees because it’s exciting to have that opportunity to stretch your skill set and to learn, and to have that additional training. It makes your work feel more dynamic. So it has so many benefits, and I think that the companies that have a little bit more of that visionary mindset and that holistic mindset are going to say, “This is going to be our competitive advantage. In 50 years, everyone will do this, but for the next 20, we’re going to crush it, and we’re going to be the first out of the gate.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Okay. So, one of the things I keep thinking about as we’re talking is, how do we make sure we’re doing this proactively and not as a, “I am so tired and so burned out, and I’m ready to burn my whole life down”? How do we make sure that we’re doing this in a way that is proactive, as opposed to reactive, so that we don’t potentially look back and go, “Oh, I regret quitting my job that I actually kind of liked, or at least tolerated, because I was just so tired”?
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yeah. I think it is one of the hopes. I hope, even if people aren’t like, “I have my next mini-retirement planned,” I hope they read the book to get this vision of what it could look like, what this model could look like. What if I decided I’m going to take a mini-retirement every three years? And you’re 24, and you’re like, “So, two years in, I’m going to negotiate a month off, or I’m going to negotiate three months off. And then, in between, when I switch jobs, I’m going to take a three-month gap.” And that just becomes your standard operating procedure, that every two years, every three years, every four years, you’re like, “This is going to be my rhythm. This is going to be how I move through my career. I’m going to have periods of intense work and then intense rest.”
And the reality is some people enjoy that rhythm better. Some people function in that rhythm better. There’s people who like the HIIT workouts, and there’s people who like the slow and steady, and some people love working hard. They love being intense. They love being all in and super passionate, and that’s amazing. But you have to counterbalance that with rest and periods where you fully disconnect. And I think I was a person that felt guilty about that, like being that way, and I was always trying to just go 80%. Be more sustainable, go 80%, have better boundaries, instead of just being like, “This is who I am. I like to go big, and then I like to go home and do something else.”
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Jillian Johnsrud:
And make that part of the plan.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. When I think about certain moments in my life that were supposed to be the vision I had, I think of when I was 19, 20, I studied abroad, and I remember thinking, “Oh my gosh, this is going to be incredible. I was in Ireland and I’m going to be here, and I’m going to be in Europe, and it’s just going to be great.” And the first month of study abroad was one of the worst months of my life. It did not stop raining. My Irish roommates were dealing drugs out of my house. I really didn’t have any close friends there. It was so isolating, and I was cold and wet and miserable and not sleeping.
And I remember thinking that whole time, and again, I have matured enough to know that this is not helpful thinking, you should just be grateful you’re here. People would kill to be in Ireland. People would kill to be on a study abroad. You just need to suck it up and be grateful you’re here. And one of the things that I love that you talk about in your work is, it’s not always going to be rainbows and daisies and luxury, and sitting by a beach with a little pool or umbrella in your drink. It’s not all going to be that. So, can we talk about some of the challenges you’ve experienced, and how do we navigate those, especially if we’ve dreamed of this mini-retirement and it’s maybe not all it’s cracked up to be?
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yeah. I mean, I’ve been talking about this for so many years, so I’ve had the opportunity to talk to hundreds of people who’ve done mini-retirements. And it’s funny because they have concerns going in, concerns usually around money and employment and healthcare, and that’s not what goes off the rails. They’re like, “No, actually, those things were fine. That worked out great. We had some other problems.” And I think people can internalize that as, “This is a me problem. This is really specific to me. This isn’t something everyone else is going through.” When, in reality, there can be some really common challenges.
One of those is you might be more burned out than you think. The function of burnout, it’s really incredible, in a sense. Burnout is what allows us to move through a difficult thing, to get out of it. If you’re in a war-torn country and you have to go somewhere else, if you have a famine, you have to travel for six months, burnout will get you through that. And in part, it does it by making sure you don’t feel so tired that you just lay down and die. It keeps you moving forward. But sometimes, once your body has access to rest, it fully feels how tired you’ve been. And so, there can be a situation where people are like, “I’m going to go on this mini-retirement. I’m going to do 100 things and it’s going to be awesome.” And then, their body senses, “Oh, we can sleep now? We can rest?” and it hardcore shuts down.
But the problem is people internalize that as it means something about them. And recovering from burnout can be a little bit like recovering from the flu, and you’re not motivated and you want to get up and you don’t want to unload the dishwasher and you’re tired, and you want to rest. It would be crazy to be like, “Why am I so lazy? Why can’t I function? Why am I not a motivated person? Why am I not ambitious? Why am I not getting stuff done? Maybe it’s because I’m not at work. Maybe work’s the reason that I can accomplish a lot as a human being, and without work, look at me. I just lay in bed and take naps.” No, you’re recovering. People can create this whole narrative in their head about, essentially, how they’re a bad person because they feel tired.
And the helpful reframe, if you know that this can happen, if you’re expecting I might be more tired than I thought, is to go, “Huh, man, I’m really tired. It’s a good thing I can take a nap because I’m on a fricking mini-retirement,” and just move on with your life. So, even if you have a bunch of plans and a bunch of travel, but you suspect you might be burned out, I tell people, “Just travel a little bit slower. Be more flexible. Don’t over schedule it. Don’t over commit yourself. If you’re not feeling motivated, give yourself that day or two to just chill out and go to a cafe. You don’t have to do all of the things right away.” But it’s stuff like that that can really trip people up and take what should be a really incredible mini-retirement and make it like, “Ah, this wasn’t exactly what I was envisioning.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. I always think, and I know Kristin will feel the same way too, especially as actors, this would happen where it was just crazy. This happened almost every time. I wouldn’t get sick for the entire run of the show. And we do our last Sunday matinee, and I’d wake up Monday, and I’d feel like death. I’d have a sore throat. I’d have a fever. I would feel terrible. And it’s like my body knew. Every time it was like, “Okay, we’re getting you through the finish line, and then I’m breaking down on you.” And that’s literally what you’re describing, which is like, “You go, you go, you go, you go. Your body sustains you till that point. And then the moment it gets rested, like, ‘Thank God, here we go,’ I’m going to give you everything. I’m going to give you the sore throat and the mucus, and here we go, buddy.” You’re just going to have to deal with that. But it’s really remarkable, and I’ve never heard somebody phrase burnout that way, but you’re exactly right. It’s like the thing that’s getting you through all this stuff.
Jillian Johnsrud:
And the crazy thing is, is that, especially in American culture, if burnout is allowing you to run away from the bear to get out of that situation, we go, “Hey, we’re pretty good at running from bears, actually. I think we’re doing an okay job. Maybe we should just run from bears all the time.” And it’s like, “Well, no, that’s not…”
Tori Dunlap:
I’m going to make that my job.
Jillian Johnsrud:
Burnout isn’t helping you stay in a bad situation. Burnout’s trying to help get you out of it. It’s trying to help get you through it. And so, for the people who are like, “But I think I’m doing okay. You know what? I’m surviving,” burnout’s trying to get you to someplace better, and so allowing ourselves to move through things instead of just staying stuck in places that we shouldn’t be.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. Okay. Let’s say somebody listening is like, “I absolutely can’t do this. For whatever reason, they come up with, I can’t do this.” Now, I think the first thing we would both say is like, “You might be able to, even if you’re telling yourself you can’t. So, actually explore that.” But are there ways we can live our lives or steps we can take to feel like, is it mini-retirement light? What ways can we experience what a mini-retirement has to offer, even if we can’t take one?
When we come back from break, we’re finishing up our conversation with Jillian, where she answers what mini-retirement can look like for someone who thinks they truly cannot do it. See you soon.
Jillian Johnsrud:
I think there’s a lot of benefits to practicing, to practicing whatever the thing is, that intention that you want for your mini-retirement, even if you can’t imagine how this is going to transpire. Like I said, maybe… I think it’s an Elizabeth Gilbert quote. She said, “Sometimes, when things are really bad, the prayer I always say is, ‘Lord, please make this much, much worse.'”
Tori Dunlap:
Is that a Liz Gilbert quote? I feel like I know all the Liz-
Jillian Johnsrud:
I think so.
Tori Dunlap:
… Gilbert quotes. That’s so good. I’m literally going to Google it.
Jillian Johnsrud:
Because sometimes, until something gets much, much worse-
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Jillian Johnsrud:
… we won’t act, we won’t move, we won’t get out of it. We’ll stay stuck. And so, if things are really bad and you can’t imagine a mini-retirement, things might get a whole lot worse, and then a mini-retirement opens up. So I think starting to practice that, because you never know. So if you want more adventure, like starting to adventure more. If you’re like, “I want to travel with my kids,” one of the great ways to practice that is to leave your house at 8:00 in the morning with your children, and don’t come home until 7:00 PM. Figure it out. Figure out where you’re going, how you keep everyone happy, how you keep everyone fed, how everyone gets their naps. How do you survive just in your community, out doing fun things for a whole day? Because then, when the opportunity opens up, either because you get laid off or you switch jobs, or your mom gets cancer and you need to take FMLA, whatever that is, you’ll have started moving in that direction and you’re more ready to pivot into that, that thing that you really want to do and need to do.
Tori Dunlap:
My final question for you, what is one thing that somebody can do? What’s one step that they can take to get closer to that mini-retirement?
Jillian Johnsrud:
I would start by imagining what it is you want to do. What are those dreams? Because you need to have… You have to start with the motivation. You have to start with the vision. Before you start with all the questions and all the logistics, is there a carrot? Because all of this stuff… I think, in the book, I tried to do a really good job of every concern, every fear, here’s the step-by-step, here’s exactly how you take care of this, and I think that it’s very easy and doable, and it’s a pain in the butt. It’s a hassle. It’s so much easier to just not change anything.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, keep going with your life. Yeah.
Jillian Johnsrud:
So, starting with that vision of, what would fit into this season of life? What do you feel like… If we don’t do this in the next five years, it’s just going to pass us by. What’s the thing that is important and urgent right now? What’s the thing that’s not fitting into nights and weekends? And start to just journal about that, vision board about it, talk to your friends about it, however you process that, because that’s going to give you that motivation and clarity of, “So, what are the logistical steps that I need to do to get closer to that?”
Tori Dunlap:
I would also encourage people… Anybody listening to you is thinking about the cost of this, both financially, your career, like, “Oh my gosh. What? How much time?” The stress, the talking to my boss, the cost of that. The cost you not doing it is going to be way worse. The cost of you not taking a break, the cost of you not hiking Machu Picchu while you’re young and healthy versus waiting until you’re 65, the cost of not thinking about this or planning it or trying, at the very least, that’s much worse. That’s a way bigger price to pay than the logistics and the potential lack of earning for that month, right? That’s not the cost. The cost is you not doing this.
Jillian Johnsrud:
And the reality is, before you do it, the risk and the hassle feels enormous, and the benefit feels modest. Every time, we used to do really big road trips every winter, and leaving our house with all five kids for three to eight months is such a pain in the butt. And the two weeks before, I’m like, “Oh, dear God, what have I done? This is so much work and I’m so stressed, and it feels so big.”
But the reality is, with this mini-retirement in the rearview mirror, after the fact, five years later, 20 years later, 40 years later, when you look back, the further you get from it, the hassle, you kind of forget. It gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And the meaningfulness, the joy, the value it brought to your life, it expands. The further you get from it, the bigger those things feel. Like that 10-week trip to those 10 national parks. Oh God, I look back now, my kids were so itsy-bitsy. They were so little and adorable, and they just loved being with us so much, and it was like… I mean, I still love my kids, but they’re junior high and high school, and it’s a whole different vibe now.
Tori Dunlap:
It’s different.
Jillian Johnsrud:
And the meaningfulness that feels is honestly 10 or 100 times more intense than when I was even living it. Because when I was living it, it was snacks and diapers and strollers, and making sure everyone had their coats. But now, I look back, and I’m just like, “Oh God, I’m so glad we did that. I will cherish that forever.”
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, yeah. You’re making me a little teary. Yeah. And I think that’s the feeling we want for everybody listening is both a great experience in the moment, or at least you’re learning something new. Maybe it’s challenging, but it’s a new experience, and that you can look back and be like, “Wow, I’m really glad I did that as opposed to making somebody, my stupid boss, richer. I’m really, really glad I did that.”
Okay. Thank you so much. This has been so helpful. I’m so excited to watch everybody listening take their own retirement and hear what that is, their own mini-retirement. Where can people find out more about you and your book?
Jillian Johnsrud:
Yeah, retireoften.com. You can find the book and coaching. I’ve got a newsletter. It’s super unhinged, so if you like that sort of thing.
Tori Dunlap:
I love it.
Jillian Johnsrud:
I don’t know. What’s it about? I don’t know. When do we send it? Who knows?
Tori Dunlap:
No idea.
Jillian Johnsrud:
It’s a surprise to all of us. We’re all surprised together. And on social media, I’m @jillianjohnsrud.
Tori Dunlap:
Amazing.
Jillian Johnsrud:
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you so much to Jillian for joining us. You can get her book, Retire Often, which has every single strategy we’ve talked about in even more detail. And I’m so excited to read it. I got a copy coming to my house right now.
Thank you, as always, for being here, Financial Feminist. Thank you for supporting feminist media. And if you aren’t already watching on YouTube, we release all of these episodes in video format over on our YouTube channel. We would love to see you there. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being Financial Feminists, and we’ll see you back here soon. Bye.
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist a Her First $100K podcast. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you’re confused about your personal finances and you’re wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com/quiz for a free personalized money plan.
Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Research by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Daryl Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Meghan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
