Why do we keep repeating patterns that don’t serve us?
Today I’m sitting down with Sabrina Zohar, relationship coach, host of The Sabrina Zohar Show, and author of the new book Why Am I Like This, to figure out why. We’re talking about the unconscious programming behind how we handle love, conflict, rejection, and even our own success. If you’ve ever over-given, stayed too long, or known exactly what you were doing while doing it anyway, you’re in the right place. Sabrina walks through two questions that can interrupt an old belief before it makes a present-day decision, what self-abandonment looks like on a random Tuesday, and how all of it shapes what you think you’re allowed to ask for and earn.
Key takeaways:
Two questions can stop an old belief from making today’s decision
When something feels huge and urgent, Sabrina asks: “Is this what I’m seeing, or is this what I’m fearing?” and “How old do I feel, and where did I learn this from?” If the honest answer is “I feel six,” you’re probably reacting to something familiar, not something actually threatening. Getting curious about where the belief started (“no one’s ever going to choose me,” “there’s something wrong with me”) is where the real work begins. It gives you room between the trigger and your response.
Your gut is calm. Your anxiety comes with a story
A gut answer is quick and quiet, like being asked whether you like the color of a plant. Anxiety shows up with a narrative (“what if she hates me, what if I mess this up”) and body sensations like heat, a tight chest, or a clenched jaw. Sabrina’s gut check: does the pinch match the ouch? If someone not texting back has turned into a referendum on your whole worth, the reaction is bigger than the moment. And if the panic vanishes the second they reply, that’s a pattern, not intuition.
Self-abandonment usually looks pretty ordinary
It’s saying yes when you want to say no. It’s driving four hours with soup when you could’ve ordered delivery. It’s going out at 10 p.m. because you don’t want someone to think less of you. It’s giving free advice in the DMs all day. People-pleasing looks nice on paper, but it’s really a way to avoid someone else’s discomfort (and your own). Setting boundaries means you’ll lose some people, so you also have to learn to grieve. The ones who loved your lack of boundaries were benefiting from it.
You can’t think your way out of a fight-or-flight moment
Overthinking feels responsible. It’s actually how we avoid feeling the thing. Regulating your nervous system doesn’t fix you forever; it just brings you back to the present so the adult version of you can make the call. Breathwork, humming, a walk, a sour candy: anything that gets you out of your head and into your body. Then you can look at the situation clearly. And please skip the “pull your ear for 30 seconds” TikToks. We’re not Tamagotchis.
Being triggered doesn’t mean you haven’t healed
A trigger is a neutral action or inaction: a door slams, someone doesn’t text back, your partner says “no” without a reason. Whoever told you that healing means never getting triggered lied to you. The work is in what you do next. Sabrina traced a flash of anger at her partner back to her dad’s dismissiveness, then calmly asked for what she needed going forward. A trigger is an invitation to learn something about yourself, and it’s not a free pass to blame the other person.
What you believe you deserve shows up in your bank account
If you don’t believe you’re worthy of someone spending money on you or paying you well, it’s hard to receive it, and you’ll keep playing small. Sabrina had a panic attack buying a $2,000 laptop for her business. Later, she stopped giving free advice and started charging for her time because she knew what it was worth. Her point about salary hit me hard: if you need $100K to live without constant stress and you take the $20K job because you’re scared, your needs never get met. You have to be okay losing what isn’t right so you can wait for what is.
Self-trust is built in tiny reps
I’ve been riffing on Brené Brown’s marble jar idea. Every small moment you keep a promise to yourself is a marble in your self-trust jar. Forget the cinematic stand-in-your-power moment; think going to the bathroom when you have to pee instead of waiting an hour. Sabrina’s advice for people who usually play small: start painfully small. Tell the barista your coffee’s cold. Practice with a friend you trust. Build the capacity before you sign up for the marathon.
Notable quotes
“I am more afraid of losing myself than I am afraid of losing other people.”
“Confidence isn’t built because you know it’s going to work. It’s built by doing things and then realizing it works.”
“Is this what I’m seeing, or is this what I’m fearing? How old do I feel, and where did I learn this from?”
Episode at-a-glance
00:00 Intro
01:35 The pattern women swear isn’t a pattern
02:40 Window of tolerance and why discomfort feels unbearable
08:10 The texting spiral, and the two questions that interrupt it
13:20 173 texts: what Sabrina understands about her younger self now
17:00 Gut vs. anxiety (does the pinch match the ouch?)
19:05 Being attached to the story of a relationship
22:55 Finding the belief underneath the behavior
27:45 When your “logical” brain makes the worst decisions
31:20 Getting out of your head and into your body
32:30 Hiring out of fear, and learning to trust yourself
41:35 What self-abandonment looks like on an ordinary day
44:30 Saying no, boundaries, and grieving who you lose
49:10 You’re allowed to outgrow people
51:00 How worthiness shapes what you ask for and earn
56:15 Moving through shame instead of ruminating
66:05 Healing doesn’t mean never getting triggered
70:05 What to do the moment you notice yourself shrinking
73:40 The self-trust marble jar
Thanks to Rocket Money for sponsoring this episode!
Thanks to BetterHelp for sponsoring this episode!
Sabrina’s Links:
Website: https://sabrinazohar.com/
Book: https://sabrinazohar.com/book
Learn the exact strategies to save money, pay off debt, improve your money mindset, and increase your net worth. Get your personalized plan: https://herfirst100k.com/ffpod.
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Meet Sabrina
Sabrina Zohar is a dynamic entrepreneur and dating coach renowned for her transformative podcast, The Sabrina Zohar Show. With a clear, no-nonsense approach to relationship advice, Sabrina’s podcast has resonated globally, ranking in the top 0.05% of all podcasts. Each episode features practical tips backed by board-certified and licensed psychologists, aimed at helping listeners improve their dating lives by fostering self-worth and personal growth.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
We talk a lot on this show about the beliefs we carry about money, what we think we deserve, what we’re willing to ask for, and some of the ways we get in our own way without realizing it. This is what we’re calling self-sabotage, right? But those beliefs don’t exist in a vacuum. Those self-sabotaging behaviors don’t exist in a vacuum. These same patterns can show up in our relationships, our work, and the way we move through the world.
Today’s guest, Sabrina Zohar, is a relationship coach, host of her own podcast, The Sabrina Zohar Show, and the author of the new book, Why Am I Like This? Her work about the unconscious programming that shapes how we respond to love, conflict, rejection, and even our own success is so absolutely crucial to this moment in time. And if you’ve ever found yourself over-giving, staying too long, asking for less than you want, or knowing exactly what your pattern is and still repeating it, this episode is for you.
We talk about how to recognize when an old belief is making a present day decision, what self-abandonment actually looks like, and how those patterns affect everything from who we date to what we’re willing to ask for. This is an absolute banger of an episode, and you will want to share it with every single woman in your life because I can guarantee you, you will feel absolutely seen and definitely called out. So let’s get into it.
But first, a word from our sponsors.
I am so excited to have you on the show. What is the pattern you watch women repeat that they swear isn’t a pattern?
Sabrina Zohar:
Honestly, it’s usually dating the parts of themselves that haven’t been healed that they swear they have. I see a lot of people… It’s a term called repetition compulsion. We date the parts of us, right? So for me, I had a narcissistic father. I kept dating people that were narcissists because that was familiar. It’s familiar to your nervous system to do what you’ve always done and what you feel like home, even though home wasn’t safe for a lot of us. And I think that’s the biggest pattern I see is expecting other people to satisfy your needs in a way that only you can, and then not communicating that with them, but then getting upset with them if they don’t satisfy your needs in the way that you want or do things, how you want them, which oftentimes can be a trauma from childhood.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and talk to me about that friction of wanting to be a better person, wanting to have dreams and goals, but also not wanting to feel uncomfortable.
Sabrina Zohar:
I would say that’s the biggest issue I see in dating and relationships right now at large is that we have this really wild inability to sit in any kind of discomfort, which is the irony because as you and I know, being entrepreneurs and business owners and scaling, you have got to be uncomfortable a good portion of the time. And I think for a lot of people… We have to look at our window of tolerance. And our window of tolerance is essentially just how much you can handle, what’s your capacity and bandwidth before you go into hyperarousal, which is a lot of anxiety and this intensity, or hypoarousal, which is shut down and kind of flight and feeling like you have nothing left to give. And I think for a lot of people, we’re treating relationships, whether that be personal, professional. This isn’t just romantic, very much like Amazon. I want it at my door when I want it. I want it immediate. I want to know the reviews. I don’t want to be unknown. I don’t want to be uncomfortable. And if I don’t like it, I want it out of my face.
But the reality is for you to grow, you have to be uncomfortable. You have to do things you’ve never done before. And that’s how pearls are made. They’re squeezed under pressure and then something beautiful happens. But what happens is I think a lot of people, we push ourselves to the edge. Our nervous system says, “I can’t handle this,” and then either we backtrack, or we go what’s familiar because our brain is designed to keep you safe. It’s not designed to help you grow.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, that’s something that I’ve done a lot of research and continuing to research about, that exact sentiment that you just said of your brain is there to keep you safe. Your brain has not really evolved much from caveman days of don’t leave the cave and don’t eat any of the berries because you don’t know if they’re going to kill you. We do not know the difference between bear chasing us and asking somebody out. Our brain responds the same way.
Sabrina Zohar:
100%. That’s the problem with our cell phones have now become these little slot machines. They’re these little dopamine reward loops. Every single time… Even some social media, cell phones, it’s not just texting. But I look at it this way. You and I are back in the day, we’re in our cave, we’re having a conversation, we hear the wind blow, that our body and our brain has one of two options, really. Either you sit inside and go, oh, it’s no big deal, but then a tiger comes in and eats you, or you go outside and say, “Oh, okay, it’s the wind. I’m fine.” And like you said, we haven’t evolved beyond that. That’s then what happens when it becomes into the romantic relationships. Nothing will trigger you like a romantic relationship, the closest to your caregivers. You will feel all of those feelings. You’ll feel small. You’ll feel like a child.
Two questions I wrote in this book that literally changed my life and helped me to understand, is this what I’m seeing? Am I being discerning, or is this what I’m fearing? How old do I feel and where did I learn this from? Because when something happens, something scary, something feels overwhelming, you feel like you’re going to lose your marbles, you can’t go on, oftentimes that’s something probably more familiar than it is something that’s actually a legitimate threat. And if we can start to understand how old do I feel in these moments? I feel like I’m six years old. Okay, what happened when I was six? My parents used to be dismissive or my teacher was really mean to me or I got bullied a lot in school. Okay, where did you learn these core beliefs that there’s something wrong with me? I’m not good enough. No one’s ever going to choose me. When we can start to get curious about the root of the actual issue, that’s when we can start to do the work in a certain way of saying it.
That’s also in your career. Again, I am a business owner and I get challenged every single day to not want to just delete everything, give up and be like, “I’m done. I don’t want to do this,” because it pushes you to your limits, but those are the moments when you get triggered and when you think that you want to give up that if you just hold on a little bit more on the other side of it, that’s the aha moment.
Tori Dunlap:
Everything you just said was so insightful and I want to double click into it. How do we actually do that in practice? Give me a scenario of the problem that arises and the initial response to it versus the more evolved two-question response.
Sabrina Zohar:
I love that. Okay. Let’s use texting as an example because I know everybody on the planet has some kind of relationship with this, whether it be your friends, your family or romantic. Let’s say you’re texting somebody, it doesn’t really matter who, and maybe they don’t answer immediately. Maybe you send a text, especially if you like them, if you have a crush on them, you’re dating them, you’re in the relationship, and they don’t answer immediately. The initial response a lot of people have go right into the knee-jerk of like, “I knew they didn’t like me.”
Tori Dunlap:
“They hate me. They hate me.”
Sabrina Zohar:
Right. “I knew I fucked up. Oh, my God, let me go back on my text. What did I say?”
Tori Dunlap:
“I’m too needy.”
Sabrina Zohar:
Precisely. All the narratives. But then, what also comes with that? If we stop to really get curious, you have body sensations, maybe you get that wave of heat, maybe your chest tightens, maybe your shoulder’s tense, your jaw starts to clench. We all have different manifestations that come up for us. Once you go into that world, then what happens usually right after is we started to go into protest behavior. Protest behavior is when we feel we’ve been disconnected from somebody, we will engage in behavior to try to reconnect.
I’ll give you a quick story. When I was dating in my heyday, I would text a guy I liked as a heterosexual norm and say, “Hey, I would love to see you again. Do you want to grab drinks?” I’m not kidding, Tori. Within 15, 20 minutes, if he didn’t respond, I was writing back, “Hey, guess not.” Yes, yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, I want to do that so badly. That’s exactly… “Okay, fuck you too. All right. If you don’t want to text me back, fine.” Yeah, because it’s a protection mechanism. It’s, “I bid you. Literally, I bid for connection. You didn’t give it to me in the time that I needed. And so, oh, guess I can’t be vulnerable, and so I got to put a wall up. Fuck you too.” All right.
Sabrina Zohar:
That’s being it. I couldn’t sit in the discomfort because I wanted to be soothed. And that’s a big misconception that a lot of my anxious babes have is they think, “No, no, I’m trying to communicate.” It’s like, no, you’re trying to get this other person to soothe. And so the more evolved way of thinking about this perhaps would be, so in that moment, I send that text. And the irony is about an hour later, the guy texts me and he was like, “Hey, great to hear from you. Honestly, I was excited to see you again, but after that text, I’m not interested. Take care.” And you know what? Rightfully so. Rightfully so.
And because had I actually challenged that thought when I’d sent the text, what was the narrative that came up? I’m too much. I knew this guy didn’t like me. No one’s ever going to pick me. I’m going to be single forever. I started going off in my narrative. If I had actually stopped to say, how old do I feel? I would’ve said, I felt like a kid. Okay, what happened? This is how my dad was, very dismissive, very cold. I always felt like I had to earn his love. It was constantly me feeling like I have to be big and perform for him to see me.
And then, from there, I could have said, oh, so this has nothing to do with this guy. Why don’t I let things just play out? I could write it in my notes 100 times. I can send a girlfriend my message. I can call my friend and say, “Man, I’m really bummed.” And then I could give myself time between the stimulus and my reaction so I could respond. Because when we’re dysregulated, we think we’re up against a wall that the tiger is right there and we have to. We don’t have a choice. When we regulate and we come back to the present moment, you start to realize you’re an adult with credit cards, a cell phone, a house, and you’re not that six-year-old little kid anymore stuck in the basement or the attic waiting for someone to come save them. That’s where this work starts to play out.
I’ve done it in my career. You get a reel that doesn’t do well or you get a mean comment. The knee-jerk reaction is for us to be like, “I knew no one liked me and no one’s going to pay. My career is over and everything’s done,” until we regulate, come back and say, “This is one person’s opinion of me that doesn’t define who I am. Now I’m going to make different choices on how I want to handle this.”
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and you open this book with one of your most humiliating dating stories, which frankly feels a bit like a copy paste from my early 20s, which is sending 173 texts to someone who had already rejected you. What did you understand in that moment that maybe wasn’t true? What was your brain telling you in that moment versus what do you understand now about her then?
Sabrina Zohar:
I didn’t realize that you and I had such a similar 20s. Yeah, I slept my way through Manhattan so that I could find myself.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, mine was less ho phase, and I mean that complimentary and more trying to cape hold of a long distance relationship that was doomed from the start. And so because it was doomed and because he was pulling away, I was like, well, I must control it more. And so I became, let’s say politely over-communicative, but really, it was clingy. It was me trying to just get some sort of comfort and stability in a relationship that was not at all stable.
Sabrina Zohar:
I really love politely over-communicative. That is such a great way to say it. I would say that girl, when I see her, I think I was like 24, I realized that after I wrote the book. I see her and I see a girl that just so badly wanted to be chosen, just wanted to be loved. And now when I look at her, it’s like, oh, I wish I could let her know it’s not about just being chosen by anybody. It’s about being chosen by the right person, the person that I also choose. Because in full transparency, the irony is after the whole 173 text… And I was being conservative, that was actually… It was probably more. I saw him a year and a half later. We matched again.
Somehow the conversation started. He had amnesia. He totally forgot about the whole night about everything that happened. We got drinks and I felt absolutely nothing. I so wasn’t into him. Lovely guy, don’t get me wrong. There’s nothing wrong with this man, but there was nothing there for me because it was about the idea of him. When I found out that he was dating the girl that I knew, and to me that was, I have to win this.
And it’s so creepy, and this is where it gets a little insidious. My father cheated on my mom their entire marriage. And so that became this weird, I have to get him to choose me because I can’t let somebody else win because then I’m going to lose him. And that’s how deep these patterns run in our lives is that if we actually start to understand where we learn them from, albeit creepy, it doesn’t change the fact that that’s where our nervous system started to create these coping mechanisms because from zero to 18 months, we’re nonverbal. We don’t speak. We’re getting facial expressions. We’re seeing how intonation is, how do people attune to our needs. By the time we have words, your nervous system and your brain have already evolved and adapted to your environment, and then it starts to just get compounded from there.
And so I think that girl was so desperate for someone to just see her and accept her for who she was, but the irony was she wasn’t doing that for herself.
Tori Dunlap:
What are some signs the decision someone listening is making today is actually being driven by an old belief about themselves?
Sabrina Zohar:
Usually what I look for, is it your gut or your anxiety if we’re trying to differentiate between the two? Your gut is a lot more calming. If I were to say, “Tori, do you like the color of my plant?” It’s green. What option are you really going to give me? You would probably just say either yes or no, right? “Yeah, it’s cute,” or, “No, I don’t love it.” That is your gut. Your gut gives you an immediate response because there’s no narrative and there’s no body reaction. Versus if I were to say, “Do you like this?” And you start going, “Oh, my God, well, I don’t want to say the wrong thing because what if she doesn’t like me? And then what if I fuck up? Oh God, I don’t want to interrupt her. Oh wait, I don’t want to insult her.” You start to notice how you have a story that comes with it and then body sensations when there’s urgency.
And usually, that’s why I always like to ask, does the pinch match the ouch? Does the amount of this energy that we have right now for the situation match the situation? So if it’s that the person that you like just didn’t text you and now all of a sudden this is a whole entire thing about your worth and you’re never going to be seen and chew. And then usually what I look at is when you get what it is that you wanted, when they text you, does it all just go away? And for me, I’m curious for you if it did. I know for me, the minute, it was like oxygen, the minute they would text me, oh, I’m okay.
Tori Dunlap:
For now.
Sabrina Zohar:
Until the next one. Until the next minute, the next second. I’m curious for you, when you were going through that, what was your breaking point? So you had that in your 20s. Was there a moment where you were like, “I can’t keep doing this anymore”?
Tori Dunlap:
It was a classic, we broke up and made up three, four, five times. I think we both just got really tired. I think we both just got really, really tired. I remember when we broke up for the last time, I was like, I should miss him more than I miss him. And to me, that tells me everything. And I’m sure he felt the same way about me. We were not supposed to be together. We were attached, and I’m doing a lot of writing and thinking about this right now, but we were attached to the story, at least I was, the story of us more than the actual version of us because we had met studying abroad and we had this really romantic startup to our relationship. And I literally thought, and again, so naive, oh, 20-year-old me. I was like, ugh, I’ve got it right and I’ve got it right on the first try. I was like… Because it was my first real relationship. And yeah, I think I wanted the story of that relationship more than I actually wanted the relationship itself. Absolutely.
Sabrina Zohar:
A good portion of the time, we typically only obsess over things that don’t make us feel safe because our brain is a predictive machine. And so for you, you had something that you perceived as valuable, not the high value nonsense we see on TikTok, actual value, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Sure.
Sabrina Zohar:
This relationship, this person. And then when there’s inconsistency, there’s the hot and cold, there’s the, is it going to happen? Is it not? That intermittent reinforcement a little bit and then… It creates novelty. If I told you, Tori, this mic flag is the only one in the world and there’s only one and it’s worth a million dollars, you’re like, “I want it. Give it to me at all costs.” But if I said they make this for seven cents and you could get it at the store next door, you’d be like, “Yeah, whatever, I’ll get it when I get it.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Sabrina Zohar:
More often than not, that’s why we hold onto people, because if it really were a healthy, secure, beautiful relationship, the reason that we don’t stay hung up on that, one, is because it’s predictable, you already knew what you were getting, but second, it’s because you would’ve been two adults that would’ve had a conversation. You wouldn’t be blindsided. You wouldn’t be like, “Oh, my God, how did this happen?” And that’s why usually after those types of dynamics, there’s a bit of a relief that comes because you feel like you can actually breathe for the first time.
That’s why then when you do the work, if you actually learn from these situations and try to evolve yourself as a person, you start to realize why all of those didn’t work out because you were trying to force a circle through a square peg. You were trying so hard because you liked the idea of them, the story, the narrative, the, if I could just get them, what would happen when I’m done with them, if they love me and let me in? But then it’s really not even about them or the connection. It’s more about what it gave you and the dopamine that you were getting than it was actually about what you two had with each other.
Tori Dunlap:
Let’s say I keep ending up in the situation. I am overextending myself or I’m panicking when someone pulls away. I am staying somewhere too long. How do I figure out what belief is under the behavior that’s actually run in the show and calling the shots?
Sabrina Zohar:
I would start to look at what comes right before you do the behavior. So right before you say yes when you want to say no, right before you say, “All right, I’m coming over and I’m bringing you soup,” and the person lives four hours away and you could just order something. I start to look at, what do you think will happen if you don’t do that? That’s usually like, “They’re going to leave me. They’re not going to like me.” If we actually start to listen… And that was my thing, in full transparency. I slept around in New York, not because I was just like, “Wow, I’m just such a sexual creature.” Yes, I was finding myself, but I didn’t need to find myself that many times. But it was more about the fact that I was avoiding actually sitting with myself. And that’s why we engage in whether it be people pleasing. People pleasing on paper looks like you’re just being nice, but it’s actually a bit manipulative because you’re trying to avoid either other people being uncomfortable.
That’s where I would even say, where did I learn this from? For me, it was my mom. My mom will apologize right now for breathing. She apologizes for apologizing. She genuinely believes she’s a burden and that she has to earn her keep. It’s why she married my father. It’s classic. It makes total sense. What I’ve had to look at is when I say, “Mom, how old do you feel? Or what comes up for you? Or what do you think will happen if you don’t have to earn it?” That’s where we can start to understand where she’ll say, “I feel like a little girl.” And I’m like, “No, no, tell me more. Go on. I want to hear about this.” Because I think a lot of us were so terrified to go back to those wounds because they hurt. They didn’t feel great. And so if we actually look at it through the lens of IFS… I don’t know. Are you familiar with Internal Family Systems?
Tori Dunlap:
Yes. Yeah.
Sabrina Zohar:
Love, right? Love. Love IFS.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Sabrina Zohar:
If we look at it through that lens, we have to think about, we have this amalgamation of all these parts of us. We’ve got a million different parts. Every age, every year, every demographic has a part. Those parts at that age learned, this is what I have to do to keep myself safe.
Now, here’s the unfair part. Your amygdala stopped growing at around six years old. That’s your fear center, and that’s where we hold onto that. But your prefrontal cortex up here, not back here, starts to get fully more developed in your late 20s. So we’re looking going, wait a minute, my fear center stopped growing at childhood, but yet my rational thinking and the part of my brain that I actually want to access is now developing well into my 20s. So we default… When we get dysregulated, it takes I think 0.02 of a millisecond to go to your amygdala. It takes 10 times longer to go to your prefrontal cortex. That’s why we go right back into those knee-jerk reactions, because as children, we are bottom up. We feel it in our body, but without someone there to help us process it, we then create narratives and stories.
As adults, we’re top down. We think it. That’s why overthinking and ruminating is because we just believe at the next corner, that’s where the answer’s going to be. And then I don’t have to feel it. But if we could actually start to blend when you want to overextend or perform or people please or whatever, what’s happening in your body, start to just even notice like, oh, wow, I’m sweating, or oh, wow, I’m starting to feel really tense. And then start to understand the narrative because it actually takes 90 seconds for an emotion to run its course when we look at neuroscience, but we start the clock every time we have a new thought.
And so I want people to get more into their body and listen to their head because your head doesn’t have the answers a good portion of the time.
Tori Dunlap:
I want everybody to go back a couple minutes and listen to that again because that is the awakening I had in my mid-20s is that my brain was often lying to me and not because my brain was bad, but because it didn’t have all of the information or it had way too much information. And I always valued, oh, I’m an analytical thinker. It’s one of my strengths. I am a very logical person. I am a smart, intelligent person. And yet, actually, when my brain made decisions, especially bigger decisions, it was some of the worst decision-making processes. It was not actually productive versus my body always knew and yet my brain ran my body into the ground by trying to analyze every situation because I’m trying to protect myself.
Sabrina Zohar:
Precisely. And then we have to go in and say, here’s the thing, if you come from that five-year-old… For me, I realized this when I had to change the name of the podcast. That was before I met you guys. It was catastrophic for me to change the name. It ruined so many aspects of my business. But I remember sitting in my coaching session and I kept saying, “I’m just scared. I’m scared.” And then it hit me that the seven-year-old believed she had to figure out how to make money. She had to figure out how to get people to like her. And that’s when I stopped and was like, “I need to be the adult here. That was never her job.”
A lot of us are running from those operations, and I’m sure you see it too in your side of the… I do relationships and love, you do business and… We see it manifest in different ways because if we’re panicked and genuinely believe that a six-year-old needs to figure this out, that’s why we’re going to keep doing the same shit over and over again until we are the adult to come back online.
Also want to say this too. I think a lot of people here regulate their nervous system and assume that when they do that that means, oh, that’s it. It all goes away and everything’s fine. All regulating means, like you go for a walk, you grab two ice cubes, you maybe snap a rubber band on your wrist, whatever you choose to do, all that means is you turn your prefrontal cortex on, and now you… Because your brain can’t be at two places at once. That’s why I have sour candy all around my house, because when I get really dysregulated, I pop a sour candy in my mouth. Your brain can’t be in the past and in the present moment at the same time.
By doing that, that’s when we can go, oh, I was coming at it like a child. That’s when we can start to understand it. And because I am so goddamn tired of seeing TikToks of just pull on your ear for 30 seconds and you restart your nervous system. We’re not Tamagotchis. You can’t just turn people on and off. We’re very complex humans, but I think if we can focus on coming back to the present moment, you’ll realize that the big shadow that we see that’s so scary is really just a little doll on the floor that’s casting this big shadow that feels a lot more scary than it actually is.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and notice that you did not say in how to regulate your nervous system, think more about it. It is get out of your brain and into your body. So snap a rubber band. For me, it is not only taking deep breaths. I’ll do it here. It’s ridiculous. I’m going to have to step back from the mic. This is what I do. I go… That’s literally what I’ll… My whole body just calmed down. That’s literally what I have to do sometimes. I have to groan, and it does help. It gets me out of my brain. It gets me back into my body.
And so the logical part of us goes, “Oh, I can just think my way out of this. I can just think my way out of the scary text. I can think my way out of the bank account balance being low. I can think my way out of fight or flight.” You cannot.
Sabrina Zohar:
The last time I tried to do that… I love the breath work, because it actually activates your vagus nerve when you make humming noises singing. The last time I did that, I’ll never forget, there was this girl that I saw and her podcast was blowing up, and she’s like a social media girl. She’s lovely. Don’t get me wrong. There’s nothing wrong with this girl. I saw it as I’m losing everything. I remember hyperventilating.
Tori Dunlap:
Oh, she triggered something in you.
Sabrina Zohar:
Triggered something in with me. I said, “I have to hire her.” I hired her to help me with my thing, and I paid her a stupid amount of money. I’ll never forget, I sent my good friend, Jillian, the video, and I said, “What do you think?” She goes, “I’m going to tell you right now, I’m disappointed in you. This is garbage. This is bullshit. This is not you, Zohar.” I remember being like, “Oh, my God.” Instantly, I snapped me back into place. I told the girl and I said, “Hey, I realized I hired you out of fear. I didn’t hire you as an adult making this decision for the best of my business. I hired you because I though you were going to save me and that you were going to figure this out for me so I didn’t have to.” I let her go. Again, amicably, again, she didn’t do anything wrong. It wasn’t the right fit. And after, my shit started to blow up, when I really said, “I need to take control and come back into this.”
But to your point, it wasn’t because I though my way out of it, but when we make decisions, especially romantic or professional, business decisions to hire somebody or to do something knee-jerk because we think they’re going to save us, that’s usually the times when you are going to be disappointed the most because nobody’s going to do that but you.
Tori Dunlap:
I want to call out what also might be happening to somebody listening is somebody hears what you just said and goes, “Oh, they got control back on the situation. It was because they let go of control. That’s why this happened.” I want to be very clear, I don’t think that’s what you’re talking about. The answer is not to white knuckle harder and to grip tighter. So what is that answer then? If it means like, “Okay, I’m making this decision out of fear,” to somebody who maybe hasn’t done the work yet, that just sounds like, “All right, I need to take back control. I can’t trust anybody else. I need to just grip tighter.”
Sabrina Zohar:
Which I totally understand how that could be the perception, right? I think what it really was about was I had to learn to trust myself, and that’s what I was doing. I was outsourcing that trust to other people. She knows better. She’ll be able to tell me what to do. Everybody else knew my business somehow better than I did, the person that grew it to where it was. When I learned to trust myself, that’s actually what made things go really well. When I sat down and started scripting my own stuff and going, “Why am I hiring somebody to speak for me when I’ve never done this before?” that’s when my life started to change because I said, I actually do got this. I don’t need other people to it.
But you know what? To your point, you do have to release control of the outcome. That is huge because all of us… I don’t know one person that gets into a relationship or starts a business with the hope that it closes or that you break up. Don’t know one person that that’s why they started is because they’re hoping it doesn’t work out. We have to remember that we do this because we trust ourselves. There’s a part of us that believes that this is what we should be doing, this is our calling, and this is the right way to go. And so please hold onto that intrinsic trust because that’s what’s going to get you further when you can stop and say, “You know what? This isn’t for me.”
Here’s the thing too, sometimes it doesn’t work out. When I met my partner, I was dating two guys. Yeah, your girl was playing it. And they both knew about each other. I wasn’t lying to anybody. In the moment, I had to make a choice, and people ask me all the time, “But how did you know it was the right one?” I didn’t. I listened to my gut and I said, I chose the part now. Three and a half, almost four years later, it worked out. It was the right choice for me. Had I not, I knew that no matter what, I’d be okay, and that is the self-trust that we have to embody. Otherwise, if you don’t stand for something, you fall for everything. And if you’re waiting for everyone else to tell you who to be, you’re going to be exhausted and probably just replicating your childhood all over again.
Tori Dunlap:
And if you make a decision and discover it’s the wrong one, you usually only discover it’s the wrong one after you’ve made the goddamn decision, because I think that’s the other belief is, again, I can analytic my way, I can research, I can analysis paralysis my way into making the correct decision. You do not figure out whether it is the right decision for you when you’re still on the sidelines. You have to be in the arena, you have to play the game and then go, “Oh, yeah, that felt good,” or, “Parts of that felt good. Let me figure out how to figure this out,” or, “Nah, okay, I did it. It didn’t work.” But you only figure that out when you’re actually in it.
Sabrina Zohar:
I’ll tell you this too, and I’m sure you can relate. I don’t remember lessons from things that worked out. I remember it when they didn’t. I remember the lessons from when I go, “Oh, that was the wrong hire. That was an impulsive decision.” But very rarely am I going, “Oh, yeah, well, that worked out really beautifully. I learned so much from it.” Maybe I learned to trust myself a little bit more, but I think we have to be okay because that’s where we start to go into the childhood of like, “I have to be perfect. I can’t mess up. I have to do everything right,” because realistically, actually challenge it. What’s the worst that can happen?
I had to play that game when the name change happened and all that. And my friend, she sat with me and she’s like, “Let’s do this together. What’s the worst that can happen?” I said, “I lose all my money.” And she’s like, “Okay, then keep it going. Keep it going.” And then once I really started to actually feel it and embody it, I realized, “Oh, you’re four years away from losing all your money if you’re financially smart about how you’re spending, and you always have been.”
But what was the biggest fear? That I’d be a failure to my father. That was it. And so once you face it and you’re like, “Oh, that’s the big bad wolf? Okay, so I’m a failure to him.” You start to actually see it for what it is, and it’s a lot less scary because you’re not a kid anymore. You will never be seven years old again. For some of us, that’s the best news ever. For other people, maybe not, right? But you will never be a child again. You don’t ever have to experience those things again. And once you embody that, that’s when your life will change because there’s a lot of scary things.
Every day, I hear people tell me, “Well, easier said than done.” What in life that’s worth it is easy? Was starting a business easy? No. Was starting a podcast easy? No. Is showing up every day for some people, is getting out of bed easy? No, but you Choose your heart and you do it anyways because that is how you show up for you. Self-love isn’t because you do bubble baths and face masks. It’s because you validate your emotions and experiences. You show up for yourself. You speak up for yourself. And no matter what, you show yourself compassion because that releases more dopamine and serotonin than anything external will.
Tori Dunlap:
I have done so much thinking and writing right now about self-trust, but on the opposite side, we have self-abandonment. What does self-abandonment look like in an ordinary day?
Sabrina Zohar:
Self-abandonment could look like saying yes when you want to say no. Could be overextending yourself, could be trying everything you can to make other people happy at the expense of your own needs. It can be something as simple as, I used to self-abandon this guy that would text me at night and tell me to come over. Instead of going, “No, I’m going to stay home. It’s 10 o’clock at night. I don’t want to leave.” I would go, “Okay, but I don’t want him to think I’m a prude. I don’t want him to not like me. I don’t want him to think anything of me.” So I self-abandoned so much to try to get other people to choose me, which then usually you know what ends up happening? They don’t. People don’t respect somebody that doesn’t have an opinion. I want someone that says, “You know what? Actually, I don’t agree with that.” And I’m like, “Cool, talk to me. What don’t you agree? Maybe we can have a conversation, a different perspective.” That’s the beautiful thing.
I think for so many of us, we self-abandon because growing up somewhere, somewhere along the way… And this isn’t about… I always like to preface, no one’s shaming or blaming their parents. I mean, maybe some people are. I’m not. I hold them accountable to the lessons that I was taught and to the behavior that they exhibited. It’s not okay, but I don’t blame them for how I turned out. I just want to take accountability and ownership of their part and then mine because that’s the only way that I’m going to grow. Otherwise, I’m going to stay in ashamed. It’s not going to help anybody.
But when I used to self-abandon, I had to actually take control and say, “I need boundaries.” But you know what the biggest thing that scares people about setting boundaries and self-abandoning, you have to grieve. You’ve got to learn to grieve because you’re going to lose people. You’re going to have people that go, “Oh, I don’t like this. Oh, I liked it better when you said yes to everything. I liked it better when you didn’t push back.”
Tori Dunlap:
Of course they did. They were benefiting from your lack of boundaries and it will make them uncomfortable because when you set a boundary, it forces them to analyze what’s working, what am I trying to get out of this? And most people are not evolved enough to do that. So when you start doing the work, it’s going to piss a lot of people off who have not done the work themselves.
Sabrina Zohar:
Saying no has become my favorite word. Oh, I love it. I love being like, “No, sorry, can’t.” And sometimes even not, “Sorry, can’t,” and I learned that. I have a really good friend. He’s very big in the industry and all that, and he will take as much as he could take. I would give and I would give. One day I remember I looked at Ryan and I said, “But maybe soon he’ll stop this.” And you know when he stopped it? When I stood up for myself and I finally said, “No, that doesn’t work for me. I’m traveling that day and I’m not going to inconvenience myself to come onto a recording for you to help benefit your company, to help benefit your bottom line, to do things that help you, that don’t do anything for me.” Because realistically, adult relationships are conditional. They are. You need conditions.
You can’t just treat me however you want and I’m going to stay no matter what. Then I don’t respect myself and I don’t actually love myself because I’m not dating my mom or dad. But when we think about that… And now, this guy respects me so much more. He actually will go, “Oh, you know what? Don’t worry about it. Totally understand.” He now speaks about me in a more high regard because he sees that I am more afraid of losing myself than I am afraid of losing other people. And that is when you will actually have people that respect you for who you are because you’re not trying so hard to make them happy. You know that you might lose them and that’s okay.
Tori Dunlap:
We’ve said it many times on this show, but if you are living your life just to please everyone and you’re going to bed at night and you’re like, “Wow, I’m not even pleasing myself,” what kind of life is that?
Sabrina Zohar:
I saw a funny video and the guy was like, “Can you go to bed at night knowing you don’t owe anybody money, no one’s kicking your door down because you’re a shitty person?” He’s like, “Can you go to bed and just know that who you are is enough?” And for a lot of us, it’s really tough.
I will not even try to kid you and say, oh, I’m 100%, healing is not linear. And I know that you will understand what I’m saying. There are days where you feel on top of the world because, yeah, there’s some external validation. Maybe you got the brand deal, you got the phone call, you got the opportunity. And then there are other days where you have to have blind faith because nothing is showing you that things are going well. Nothing is presenting itself in the moment. That is when you have to hold onto yourself because otherwise, in those moments, you start going down a spiral, you rabbit hole, you attack yourself.
Let me ask you this, who wants to be around somebody that hates themselves? Who wants to be around somebody that’s self-deprecating, that always puts themselves down, that thinks everyone hates them? It’s exhausting. You end up being like, “All right, you know what, dude, grow up. I want to be around people that actually think that they have value and that they offer something to the world, not that they always think that they’re depleting from it.”
Tori Dunlap:
I mean, I have had to not remove friendships, but not be as close to people who do that purely because, and they’re sweet people, but it is like I find myself leaving interactions with them. I am like… And again, I trust myself and I know myself and I’m tuned in with my body well enough. I really watch that. When I leave people and I feel on top of the world and I feel really energized, great. Those are the kind of people I want to be around more. The people who don’t like themselves very much, don’t have very positive self-talk, they deplete you of all their energy. And it’s not their fault. They’re not bad people, but you do get to the end of that interaction, that dinner or that coffee date or that movie night and you’re just like…
Sabrina Zohar:
That’s why I don’t really love pop culture sometimes because you have best friends forever, the one. And it’s like, it’s okay. My biggest breakup was with a friend, 15-year friendship, and it just ran its course. There’s nothing wrong with her. We just are not… The person I was becoming was not the person that I was, and the person that I was was the reason we were so close. And that is part of this is is as you grow and evolve…
And the irony is my brother then came to a dinner and he met a bunch of my friends and he looked at my mom and he goes, “This is the first time I can say I love Sab’s friends.” And my mom was like, “Do you know why? Because she has done the work on herself to bring people into my life that I genuinely feel good with because I’m more discerning. I’m seeing it for what it is, not for what I’m hoping it will become. And I’m no longer connecting over wounds. You’re connecting over values and depth and honesty and transparency.” You’re allowed to outgrow people.
Tori Dunlap:
And people are allowed to outgrow you.
Sabrina Zohar:
100%. 100%. I’ve had people tell me that, “Hey, I’m done with this friendship.” And you’re like, “Hey, thank you so much. It was a good run.” But if we try so hard to hold onto it, that’s self-abandonment.
Tori Dunlap:
We spend so much time on this show and in our work talking about money without really talking about money because it’s about the beliefs we carry. So many of our actual financial decisions, as we’ve talked about many times, have nothing to do with math, have nothing to do with numbers and everything to do with our mindset, with our beliefs about ourselves, with money trying to compensate for something. So how do all of these beliefs shape what we think we’re allowed to ask for or think we’re allowed to earn when it comes to money?
Sabrina Zohar:
If you don’t think you’re deserving and worthy of somebody spending money on you or giving you money, it’s going to be very difficult to receive that. And then you’re always going to be playing small. When I first started my career, buying a laptop, I had a panic attack because who am I to spend $2,000 on something myself? Because growing up, my dad used money as a means of control. He would give and he would take.
The one story I have is that my mom took me to Ross for my eighth birthday because we didn’t get presents. My dad, he did not spend on us. He didn’t believe in that. His response was, “You get enough year-round.” We didn’t get anything. What did we get? We had a house. Thank you for bringing me into this world. I didn’t ask for it. That was the first time somebody saved money and bought me one thing. It was like $8, but that didn’t matter. What mattered was you cared about me. You loved me enough to do something, to take money, take me on a private thing that no one knew that she was doing this to show me that I mattered.
I think for so many of us, money is safety. I know for me it is. If I have it… But that’s the problem. It’s a moving target. You could have $10 million in the bank and you’ll be worried you’re going to lose it. You’ll be worried it’s not enough. You’ll be always on this hamster wheel because it’s not about the actual dollar amount. I could have $5 or five million. I’m still going to think it’s not enough because we have to actually believe and demand that.
When I started setting boundaries in my career saying, “I don’t give free advice. I don’t just answer my DMs,” and sit and talk to people endlessly all day, I got people that got upset with me. And you know what I also got? Made a ton of money charging people for my time because I know I have value. I know what I offer people and I know that I can actually change people’s lives if you sit with me, but I’m going to charge accordingly for that because I’ve worked this hard for that. That is a belief that took time to cultivate because at first, I didn’t think anybody was ever going to even listen to me, and that’s okay. Confidence isn’t built because you know it’s going to work. It’s built by doing things and then realizing it works.
And so I think anybody that’s listening, if money scares you, it did for me. Money is terrifying to me. And the reason I have so much of it saved is because I’m scared of it at times. And that’s where I’ve had to learn it comes and it goes. But if you really want to understand, I would start to say and get curious about what part of you believes that you are not worthy of it, that you’re not deserving of it, that you are never going to get it, that everybody else can?
At least in our industry, I see people get these crazy half a million dollar brand deals and then you get the brands tell you, “Sorry, we only have 5,000.” And you’re like, “I don’t understand.” It took me a while to actually believe that I could make that money too. I haven’t. Don’t worry, not yet, not yet. It hasn’t happened yet, but I could make that. Why is that person better than me and why is their value seen as more than mine? But you have to hold that conviction, which means also losing things if that doesn’t align because if you need $100,000 salary, that’s what you need.
We’re throwing a number out there. You need 100K a year and you’re looking for a job… And this is the same in relationships if you’re going to accept less than you deserve. You know that this is what you need to pay your bills, to live your life, to not have to stress all the time. But when you’re so scared, if you don’t actually think you’re going to get it and you go get a $20,000 job, your needs are never going to be met. You’re always going to be wanting more. You’re constantly going to be struggling because you have to be okay losing the things that are not right for you to wait for the ones that are. That’s just how this is going to work, but you have to believe that you are worthy and deserving of somebody doing that for you, otherwise you’re not going to be able to receive it and your nervous system is going to constantly push it away.
Tori Dunlap:
When we do something that we are not proud of, when we are reactive, when we allow the child version of us to take over, when we spend mindlessly, when we text that person 173 times, how do we not linger in shame as the initial response? How do we not stay there and instead move forward to learn?
Sabrina Zohar:
That’s big on ruminating, right? Ruminating is we get stuck thinking just at the next thought, I’m going to figure this out. Processing is allowing ourselves to feel the emotions, feel the weight, feel everything that comes with it. And so there’s ACT, acceptance and compassion therapy or whatever it is. What the biggest thing of ACT is, if you can make meaning of the situation, then you can learn from it.
And so for instance, the 173 text, if we look at guilt versus shame, guilt is I’ve done bad, shame is I am bad. So if we’re starting to go into the, “Oh, my God, I’m a terrible person,” da, da, da, da, one thing that changed everything for me was having just a simple mantra, given everything I’ve been through, of course it would make me feel like this. Because just right there, you’re showing yourself compassion and saying, “Of course, man, you’ve had a really tough life. You went through a lot growing up, so of course you messing up is going to mean that this is going to impact you.”
And then I go and say, okay, so if I see that that’s a 10-year-old little girl and she’s saying, “But I knew it. I fucked up. No one’s going to like me and I’m an idiot and I can’t believe I did that. What was I thinking?” then I would start and say, if she were sitting right next to you, what do you think she would need to hear, or they? And most people, the PC answer is like, “You’re fine. Everything’s okay. You’re going to be okay and you have enough money and everything’s fine,” but that’s dismissing them. Then what you’re doing is you’re just doing what everyone did to you. Instead, maybe what that part needs to hear is, “I am so sorry that I am doing to you what everyone else did, that I’m attacking you, that I’m putting you down, that I am just being terrible to you. What is it that you need from me? You need me to speak kinder to you? You’re right. You’re right. I am not being nice to you right now.”
That’s the type of conversation you can just have with yourself. You could sit in a room… I do that in the shower. Sometimes I’ll feel my little and I’ll be like, “Wow, you feel like a terrible person right now because you said no to somebody, but I need you to know that you are allowed to do this. It’s okay. And I love you and I think you are the bee’s knees and I’m really proud of you.” That right there, then you’re like, okay.
Tori Dunlap:
To somebody who’s never done it sounds crazy. I’m going to talk like capital C, crazy. Oh, I’m going to talk to myself and who do I think I am telling myself I’m the best? And it’s like, you should be telling yourself you’re the best. You should be talking out loud, calming yourself down and being like, “I love you. I’m not going to leave you. I’m not going to abandon you. We will figure this out.”
Sabrina Zohar:
And you know what? I will make sure that no matter what… My friend even brought up a good point. He’s a neuroscientist and he was like, “You don’t ask your little what they want to do.” He’s like, “That’s a child. You tell children what they’re going to do.” And so maybe it’s getting curious. For me, I used to hide in this one house that was my house of horrors, I call it. And so when I feel she’s back there, I literally tell her, I’m like, “Get the fuck out. Get out.” I’m like, “You are not allowed here anymore. We’re going to the Pink Palace. You’re going to go relax and you get to be a child, and mama’s here and I’m going to be the adult.”
Tori Dunlap:
Or even, “Hey, this is not a great place for you. I’m going to take your hand and we’re going to walk out the door and then we’re going to the Pink Palace.” Because I think for me, I have to talk to myself very kindly. I can’t be like, “We’re getting the fuck out of here.” I’m just like, “Hi. Hi. This isn’t good for you. You know this isn’t good for you, so take my hand and we’re going to keep walking. Yep, you’re doing great. Oh, you’re walking so strong. You’re being so brave right now. You’ve got this.” And then I walk her out of there.
Sabrina Zohar:
Right up, whatever. It’s like whatever your little needs, that’s what our job is. Because then when you do that, then if somebody comes to you and says something disrespectful or rude, you’re like, “Uh-uh, baby, I got this. You stay back.” “What did you just say?” Then the adult can be like, “I have got this and I’m going to handle it.” And I get it. Trust me. I know it sounds woo-woo. I know people are like, “I’m not talking to myself.”
Tori Dunlap:
No, it will change your life, everyone listening. I promise you it will change your life. And I could say that in a way that’s like click baity, a hook on Instagram. No, this thing will actually change your life. It changed my life. It is the tool that I point to that I’m like, this is probably the biggest reason I’ve been able to be successful, period.
Sabrina Zohar:
If I can be the girl that was broke, didn’t know what the fuck I was doing, sleeping with two guys a night because I just want one in the morning, one at night, right? Yeah, I did that to the person I am now, then anybody could do this. We’re not a victim of our own circumstances. Learned helplessness is very much a real thing, but when you change the way you speak to yourself, even something as simple as that didn’t feel great, and I’m going to acknowledge that. We don’t gaslight ourselves to be like, “You’re just being dramatic and this…” No, I didn’t love that. That didn’t feel great. What you’re doing is you’re standing up for yourself in a way that maybe nobody else did because then you won’t allow other people to do it to you. But when you do it to yourself, you can’t be shocked when people treat you like.
Tori Dunlap:
The thing I keep coming back to in the work I’m doing right now is you think you’re being productive by ruminating. You think that that is actually making you a better person and you think that is processing. If you are actually trying to improve yourself, if you’re actually trying to get a step closer to your goals, no matter if they’re financial, if you trying to create a positive dating life, whatever that goal is for you, create a business, the productivity isn’t, I am going to run this into the ground and look at it from every angle. That is actually sabotaging your ability to move forward. It’s so important that you understand that the thing you think is productive, the thing you think is, “Oh, yeah, I’m processing,” it’s, no, you are white knuckling and again, running that thing into the fucking ground.
Sabrina Zohar:
A question I always ask is I’m like, by doing that, what do I get to avoid dealing with? By doing that, when we get to stay super busy… Even me, I got sick last week as a dog when I was away in New York and I came home and I had to cancel my whole week. Oh, my God. I felt so guilty and all day I’m like, “No, no, no, let me go live.” And Ryan’s like, “You don’t have a voice. Go on the couch and please do nothing.” That took a lot for me to be like, hey, you don’t have to earn rest. You get to just do it. Because when we try so hard…
If a reel doesn’t do well and you’re like, “All right, let me make 10 more,” that’s coming from fear. That’s coming from scarcity of, “I have to. I have to,” versus, “You know what? Today’s not my day and I’m allowed to feel collapsed. I’m allowed to feel frustrated. We all know we hate social media. I’m allowed to feel that and tomorrow’s a new day and I’ll try again.” That right there is how we can then be like, okay. Otherwise, when we try to ruminate and ruminate and ruminate and you stay in your head, what do you avoid feeling? Feeling like a failure, feeling like you can’t do it, feeling like you’re not enough. That’s where we want to be. It’s okay if you go in your room and cry. That’s fine. Let it out.
Tori Dunlap:
There is this belief that I am healthy when I’m never triggered again. I’ve done the healing work when I never feel triggered again. I want to call bullshit on that. Tell me more about the feelings of being triggered and the response that we need to have in order to be the healthiest versions of ourselves.
Sabrina Zohar:
Whoever told you that you will never get triggered means you healed has actually lied to you because a trigger is a neutral action or inaction, right? So if somebody slams the door, to the average person, maybe they just go, “Okay,” but if you had a childhood experience or PTSD, whatever, all of a sudden you jolt. Somebody didn’t text you, to other people, it’s no big deal. A trigger is a neutral action or inaction, which means of course people are going to trigger you. That’s part of this. What we’re looking at is what’s my reaction to it? What am I doing? What’s my baseline versus what am I doing with it to then respond? Because I’ve had my partner say things and instead of…
All right, I’ll give you an example. I asked Ryan to go to HomeGoods one day. He said no. He just went, “No.” The knee-jerk reaction of me was, “What the fuck do you mean, no? Are you kidding me? Are you that much of an asshole?” But instead, I stopped and I said, “What triggered me so much?” He’s allowed to say no. Oh, it reminded me of my dad. My dad’s very dismissive and he just goes… And walks off. Oh, okay. That’s what it was.
So when he came back in the room, I was able to say, “Hey, can I share something with you?” “Yeah, what’s up?” I said,” When you said this, it triggered me. I want you to know that’s not your responsibility. You are allowed to say no, but moving forward, what would be really helpful for me, could you at least just give me the reason why so I don’t make up a reason?” And I explained my dad and he was like, “Oh my God, that makes so much sense.”
We have to this day never had that issue because your partner is going to piss you off. Your partner is going to drive you insane. There are going to be times you want to Bart Simpson their neck. That doesn’t mean it’s not the right partner for you. What that means is that you now get to choose how you respond.
I am so exhausted by the trigger conversation because people think, “You triggered me,” it’s like this get out of jail free card for them to treat you however they want to, but that just means that you need to grow up and take control of your own life and have some emotional regulation so that you can understand a trigger is on you, not on them. And then you can articulate and have a conversation with people, but it’s not about blaming or shaming the other person because that is why I think the pendulum swings. Either we leave the second we feel uncomfortable, the minute something’s wrong, “Oh, they made me feel anxious. I’m out,” or we stay way too long and we think like, “Oh, it’s fine, it’s fine. Red’s my favorite color. I don’t need to see all the flags.”
We want to find a little bit of a baseline that a trigger is, to me, an invitation and an opportunity for me to learn more about myself. And if I can actually take that invitation, I will be able to grow from the situation, be able to communicate more effectively and come back home to myself in a way that maybe I haven’t prior.
Tori Dunlap:
When a woman notices herself shrinking to keep the peace, let’s say it’s this week, it’s at work, it’s with her money, it’s in her relationships, what do you want her to do in that exact moment?
Sabrina Zohar:
Honestly, I’d love that person to take a couple of deep breaths to just sit with themselves and say, what is playing small protecting me from? Playing small is protecting me from losing my job. Okay, well maybe we could start to get curious about how factual that is. And listen, I understand there are times… As women, what have we been taught? Be a good girl. Don’t ruffle any feathers, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Don’t piss anybody off.
Sabrina Zohar:
Don’t piss anyone off. Keep sweet. Be good. Now we are learning that we as women have the most freedom we’ve ever had. We’re making the most money in the world that we… This is the most free in history that we have been where we are. I think for a lot of people, playing small feels like it’s going to be safe because it’s going to keep you safe. That’s where I would say it’s okay, you want to play small, that’s fine, but then you’re not going to be able to have the big life that you dream. And that’s okay. That’s a choice you’re making and I respect it and that’s fine. But if you really do want to have that life, then I would start to get curious about what you’re scared of happening if you take up space.
Then here’s the biggest thing. I don’t want anyone listening to think that they need to go from playing small to all of a sudden setting boundaries all day every day. That is never going to work. That’s why New Year’s resolutions don’t stick. You’ve got to start painfully small. You have to allow your nervous system, right?
If I were to say, “Tori, we’re going to go run a marathon,” and you’re like, “Girl, I have asthma. I can’t even walk down the block,” I’m not going to sign you up for 26.2. What I would do is I would say, for a week, put your shoes by the door, and then for another week, start walking around your house. Then for another week, maybe walk up and down your street because what you’re doing is you’re telling your nervous system, this is safe, I can do it, and you’re building that capacity.
And so I want everyone to take it small. Maybe it means testing it with the barista at the coffee shop that you normally wouldn’t say anything, but this time you say, “Excuse me, my coffee’s cold.” Very low stakes. A friend that you trust, let them know, “Hey, I’m trying to take up space. Can I practice that with you?” If you have a really good friend, they’re going to be like, “Hell yeah, I’m here, baby. Let’s go. Let’s take it up.” And then learn to grieve because when you take up space, you’re going to have people that say that you’re too big. That’s okay. That’s just a threat to them. They want you to dim your light because it makes them feel inadequate about the fact that theirs is not bright.
Tori Dunlap:
The metaphor I’ve been turning to, which is a derivative of Brene Brown’s great metaphor about the marble jar. Have you heard this story?
Sabrina Zohar:
The marble jar, yes, but I’d like to… Yeah.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. She talks about having this metaphor with friends based on her daughter at school when they did something good, teachers put marble in the jar. When they did something bad, marbles get out of the jar. And eventually, I think they get a pizza party or something if there’s enough marbles in the jar. And she talks about friendship as a marble jar of when your friend shows up for you, when your parent gets sick and they are checking in on you, it’s marbles in the jar. When they don’t show up for you, it’s marbles out of the jar. But I am thinking about that as it’s a self-trust jar and you’re putting marbles in the self-trust jar. I think everybody believes it is these big actions.
This is what she says with friendship too. Everybody thinks it’s, “Oh, it’s when they do something crazy and they fly across the country for me or whatever.” And maybe, but she’s like, it’s in these little moments of your friend remembers your parent’s name, your friend remembers that you have an appointment coming up that you’re really nervous about, it’s in these small moments that we start feeling better connected to people.
I think it’s the same logic for ourselves. We believe that self-trust and moving away from self-abandonment is these big moments of almost cinematic standing in your power and look at me, go. And it’s like, no. It’s like, oh, I have to pee. And rather than waiting an hour, it’s, I’m going to go to the bathroom right now. It’s something as simple as just like, oh, my body’s asking for something. I give it to my body when it asks. I don’t wait. I don’t punish my body. Yep, something doesn’t feel good. I say no. Something feels amazing, I say yes. It’s these small little moments where your marbles go in the self-trust jar or your penny’s in a piggy bank. It’s like it builds over time. You’re not saving $10,000 in that piggy bank at once. You are saving pennies.
Sabrina Zohar:
What I realized too was like, oh, I need water. I need food. Basic things that we think are, oh, come on, really? It’s like, yeah. Even I’m going to take three deep breaths before I respond. I’m going to put… What I used to do to…
This is the type of thing too. The tools that we’re talking about, at first, you’re like, this is so clunky. Then after you do it enough, you don’t need to keep doing things like this, right? But I’ll set my clock for a minute and then I will say, “I’m not going to respond to something,” especially a mean review or something where you want to snap back and you’re like, “I’m going to fucking end this person.” I will set my clock for a minute and then after, or even sometimes an hour, start small, then after I will assess, do I still feel this intensity? Do I still want to say this? And if not, what’s an alternative that I’d like to respond with? Because by just doing that, you’re giving yourself permission to fall in love with who you are.
I think that was a question my therapist asked, what are the parts of yourself that you don’t think are lovable? And I remember saying my anxiety and no one’s ever going to love that. Then I remember just looking at her and I was like, “You dumb bitch, I see what you just did.” And she was like, “Those are the parts that need you because the more you try to turn away from them and be like, ugh, the more they’re going to persist. They’re just going to keep rearing their ugly head until you become the chief operating officer of all of your parts. They’re going to run the show and the inmates will run the asylum.”
And so I love the marble jar analogy of start really small, something as simple as in the morning, I’m going to eat breakfast. In the morning, I am going to wake up five minutes earlier so I could do a meditation in bed before I even start my day. Those little things add up into such a monumental way because it’s brick by brick that you will start to build this building, but you don’t just wake up and all of a sudden have this house there.
Tori Dunlap:
And if you want the house, this is what it’s going to take. There is no shortcut. There is no hack to building the house. I don’t think you would be listening to this and listening to this show more generally if you didn’t want to build a really solid house that you love living in. So it will take this, it will feel uncomfortable, but again, choose your discomfort. Would you rather keep beating yourself up or would you like to choose these small moments of discomfort that ultimately do make your life better brick by brick?
Sabrina Zohar:
And don’t be surprised when other people don’t want to do this too. I get that a lot, especially in the dating world. People will say, “Well, I did all of this work. Why haven’t I met my person?” And it’s like, “Whoa, whoa, wait, you’re not doing this work for a specific outcome. You’re doing it so that you can feel better in your body and being home with yourself, taking up the space.”
A lot of people see my content. They’re like, “Oh, you’ve always been confident.” I’m like, “You didn’t know me five years ago. You didn’t know who I was and that I was terrified of a lot of these things, but I had to be okay with me, and that’s why I did this.” I met my partner. That was a nice to have. I started my business. That was a nice to have. But even if I had none of this, as long as I could be okay with me, that’s the end game. And so don’t be shocked when so many people that you meet are not interested.
That’s why there’s a lot of people that don’t own businesses. That’s why there’s a lot of people that are not doing this work, that are not having the healthy, secure relationships and communicating openly and honestly, even to a fault when it’s uncomfortable, because for a lot of people, the hell they know is better than the heaven they don’t. And they would rather stay in some… Remember, your brain, it wants to keep you familiar because you only have so much energy in a day. When we go into black and white thinking, it’s so much easier to do that because it saves us energy versus going in the gray holding nuance and space and being like, wait a minute, is there another way to see this? That takes energy. Don’t be surprised when a lot of people don’t want to do that.
Tori Dunlap:
I am so excited for people to read this book. I think that so much of our work is similar. I can’t talk about it publicly yet, but I have a project coming out next year where I’m just like… It’s just like all of this work is so absolutely crucial for women getting to where they want to be, and it just makes me so happy. So plug away, my friend. Where can people find it?
Sabrina Zohar:
You guys can find Why Am I Like This? available anywhere books are found worldwide, which is really fun. You can come listen. Tori will be on next year, The Sabrina Zohar Show, or Sabrina Zohar on any social platform. You will see my face at nauseum, so just feel free to look it up.
Tori Dunlap:
This was such a banger of an episode. Thank you.
Sabrina Zohar:
Thanks, dear. Stoked to be here.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminists, produced by Her First $100K. If you love the show and want to keep supporting feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you’re looking for resources, tools, and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to herfirst100k.com/ffpod.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminists, produced by Her First $100K. If you love the show and want to keep supporting feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you’re looking for resources, tools, and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to http://herfirst100k.com/ffpod.
Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Ellice Ellis and Tamisha Grant. Audio and video engineering by Jonathan Kirk. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First $100K, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Rae Wong, Daryl Ann Ingman, Meghan Walker, Marciella Baietto, Demi Ganim, Taylor Toll, Zoe Rezek and Stormy McBride. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.