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“I think society has tried to condition women to believe that there has to be this scarcity mindset. That there’s only one girl who can make it. There’s one seat. One girl will get chosen by the guy, the other will be depressed and alone and sad for the rest of her life.”

Tori and guest, Victoria, open by recounting their individual experiences of growing into Swifties — Victoria as a day one fan, and Tori as a more recent Swiftie convert — but the conversation quickly turns into a discussion of double standards women face in the music industry. While male artists often boast about their achievements, female artists are criticized for not being ‘humble’ when they express their pride.

Victoria notes, “The word humble is used as a weapon against women.”

Not only are women facing double standards in comparison with men, but they’re also subject to being pit against each other, as if there can’t be more than one wildly successful woman at a time. Tori details being asked by multiple people to pick who had the better concert performance between Beyonce and Taylor Swift. “It’s so easy to compare ourselves to other women, and it’s not like this person standing on their own and their talent, it’s who’s better, or whose voice is better, or whose stage presence is better, or who’s a better businesswoman, and everything becomes a competition.” To which Victoria adds, “We don’t do that when it comes to Justin Bieber versus Harry Styles, or The Weeknd versus Drake.”

Some of the other highlights of this episode include:

• Discussing the influence of women in music and the significant impact of female artists like Taylor Swift on the music industry and the broader economy.

• The power of fan loyalty to Taylor Swift and how she has used her influence in business.

• Breaking down some of Taylor’s most popular songs, lyrics, and analyzing what songs like “The Man” and “Mad Woman” really mean.

• Deconstructing Taylor Swift’s image, how it has evolved over time, and the media’s role in shaping public perception.

Victoria and Tori talk about their Eras Tour experience and more in this special episode. Tune in!

Victoria’s links:

Real Pod podcast

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Additional Resources Mentioned:

The Hidden Opponent

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Transcript:

Victoria Browne:

I think society too has tried to condition women to believe that there has to be this scarcity mindset. That there’s only one girl can make it.

Tori Dunlap:

One seat.

Victoria Browne:

Yep, there’s one seat. One girl will get chosen by the guy, the other will be depressed and alone and sad for the rest of her life. So we then saw that and then would try to put ourselves in these boxes. We get older and we evolve and we think about it and we realize, wait, there is room for everyone at the table. And wait, what if we just did a table of all women?

Tori Dunlap:

Hi Financial Feminist, welcome back to the show. Karma is my boyfriend. Karma is a God. We’re talking about Taylor Swift today and you’re like, “This is a finance podcast, Tori. Why are we talking about Taylor Swift?” Well, for many reasons, including but not limited to the financial impact, AKA Swiftnomics, but also internalized misogyny. The narratives that we as women believe around success, around our relationships, around the word bragging getting weaponized. But also we’re just talking about the Eras tour today, and I’m really, really excited for today’s episode. It is an episode I’ve actually wanted to do for a long time, even before Eras tour Taylor Swift mania because as the title might suggest, I hated Taylor Swift. I’m not proud to say it, but as we get more into the episode, my internalized misogyny, even as someone who is a literal Feminist activist and outspoken Feminist about town on the internet, I had some feelings about Taylor Swift that were misguided and you might too.

And whether they’re about Taylor Swift or another woman in your life or in your sphere. We’re going to talk about it today and we’re going to talk about it with the biggest Taylor Swift fan. I know Victoria Garrick Browne. You might remember Victoria from a previous episode where we talked about diet culture. Vic is a friend of mine as well as a founder and entrepreneur, a podcaster. She hosts the podcast Real Pod, which I have had the pleasure of being on. She also is a founder of a nonprofit called The Hidden Opponent that discusses college athletes’ mental health, and it’s just such important work that she does around mental health, eating disorders, focused on intuitive eating, but also specifically mental health for college athletes. And we’re just really excited to have her on the show today because if you don’t know her professional work, you know her work as a huge mega Swifty and had to have her on the show to talk about all of these things.

Before we get into the episode, we pulled some research about Taylor Swift and economics that I found really fascinating. You might’ve heard part of this already as we’re discussing this summer and just the impact that she has had on the economy. But here’s some fun facts for you. A US-based survey estimates that the HE’S tour could generate as much as $5 billion. That’s billion in direct economic impact for the US economy and 10 billion in indirect economic impact. 5 billion just to contextualize, is the same as the 1996 Olympics had on Atlanta, for which they developed a $1 billion infrastructure that still stands today like the Georgia Aquarium and the Centennial Park that is also larger than the gross domestic product, the GDP of 50 countries. According to Billboard, the opening night for Eras in Glendale, Arizona brought in more revenue for local businesses than when the Super Bowl was held in the same stadium.

And Swift has been performing the equivalent of two to three Super Bowls every weekend for the past five months. There has been an estimated $2.2 billion in North America ticket sales alone, hundreds of millions of streams and an 80% increase in her music catalog. The Eras tour currently has 149 dates, and each concert is expected to bring in $13 million in revenue each. This would allow her to pass the symbolic billion dollar threshold for touring surpassing Elton John. The cool thing, she shared $55 million in profit with everyone on her Eras crew. And this mirrors a shift in the economy seen by many companies as it turns into a labor market that favors workers. And as turnover increases, we know of course, that a tour like hers cannot handle a major turnover because it’s just this massive supply chain management exercise. If we think about the amount of people who have to put together this stage and put together the lights and the show and the costumes and the dancers and the musicians, this is crazy.

The drivers, this is a crazy operation. We talk about all of this impact, all of this excitement in this kind of summer of the girl between Taylor Swift and Beyonce and the Barbie movie. And we specifically, again, make the link between all of the shit that Taylor Swift has had to go through. But also all of the shit that we have put on her as individuals and as a society and what we can learn from it in our own lives, what we can learn from it in our treatment of women, as well as just we just talk about how badass she is. If you’re a Taylor fan, you’re going to want to listen to this episode. If you’re not a Taylor fan, this episode might turn you into one because as a reminder, I wasn’t for a really long time. I was very outspoken about it. And now we’ve converted and now we’re here. So without further ado, let’s go ahead and get into it.

But first a word from our sponsors.

Hi Vic. I’m so excited to see you again. Welcome back to the show.

Victoria Browne:

Yay, me too. I’m so happy to be back. Thanks for having me Tori.

Tori Dunlap:

We are talking about one of your all time favorite topics today, which is the one and only Taylor Swift. So talk to me first about your Swifty journey, how you discovered Taylor, just for somebody who doesn’t know anything about you and has never followed you o
n the internet, talk to me about that journey to becoming her biggest fan ever.

Victoria Browne:

Well, I feel very blessed to have been pretty much a Swifty from the start or from the very beginning. Because I think nowadays you’re seeing a lot of people realize how much they love Taylor, which is amazing. But I feel bad for them that they didn’t get these songs during middle school and high school and college. These songs transformed my life. When I was 15 and I walked through the doors of my high school for the first time, going from eighth grade to freshman year. Under my breath, I literally sang to myself, [Singing 00:07:08].

Tori Dunlap:

[Singing 00:07:09].

Victoria Browne:

Because Taylor Swift was narrating my life. Yes, 15. I just couldn’t believe I was living the song 15 on my freshman year of high school. So the first time I ever heard of Taylor or heard a Taylor song was my two friends in elementary school listening to Our Song. We were on a field trip, and I remember we had iPods and they just kept listening to this song. And I remember they played it, I listened too or something, and I was like, “This is so good.” It was like [Singing 00:07:43].

And that was my first Taylor song I ever heard. And then I have to be honest, I don’t know how old I was, we could Google it, but I don’t think I realized that there was an album. And then I remember hearing Teardrops On My Guitar, but I didn’t fully process album and listened to an entire album until Fearless and I went to the Fearless concert. I was holding up my heart, she was dripping in water, and I was like, “I’m sold. That’s my girl.” And so that was kind of the start of me loving Taylor Swift and it continued and has only gotten stronger.

Tori Dunlap:

So I grew up basically only listening to country music for a while. And so I heard Tim McGraw and Teardrops on my guitar before anybody knew who she was. And then I went to I think Half Price Books and bought Fearless, and that was the first album that I bought of hers and loved it and listened to it. And even then I had to have been like, I don’t know, 11 years old, 12 years old. I even thought to myself then this feels cringey. And so my path to Taylor Swift, I’m not happy to admit, is full of a shit ton of internalized misogyny.

As I grew up I would listen to her songs and I knew every word to Blank Space and every word to I Knew You Were Trouble. But I thought to myself, I’m like, “I don’t think she’s that talented. I don’t think she’s that good. All she can sing about are her fucking boyfriends.” That’s what I thought for a really, really, really long time. And it was literally until… Vic is like steaming.

Victoria Browne:

Sorry, it’s so hard for me to hear it even when it’s in past tense.

Tori Dunlap:

No, that’s great. No, and especially for me as Capital G tries to be Good capital F Feminist, I had this feeling about her where I was just like, “Yeah, I don’t think she’s that talented. I don’t really get it.” But I knew every word to every song. And then it was literally Olivia Rodrigo where she had come out with her first album driver’s License, kid come out right and just completely dominated. And I thought to myself, this was what, two, three years ago, I thought to myself, “Wow, what a smart move. This girl is taking all of her trauma from previous boyfriends and writing these great songs about it and then making a bunch of money and becoming this so famous, so well-known.” And then I literally had this oh moment where I was like, “Oh, this is what Taylor Swift has been doing this entire time. This is what she’s been doing this entire time.” And it actually took me loving Olivia Rodrigo and respecting Olivia Rodrigo to be like, “Oh shit, what have I done?”

Victoria Browne:

Yeah, I mean, I’m glad that you turned the corner. And I feel like that story, whether it was Olivia Rodrigo or not, just the story of people nowadays realizing, “Wait, her music slaps, she’s so talented, she’s so brilliant.” And then people realizing that they really did follow the narrative of the media. And I really do think, especially, I love Jamila Jamil talks about this a lot on her Instagram, but the way the media talks about women, and even right now, I saw Jamila Jamil post something about something like female fatigue and how that never happens with anyone else. And I don’t know if you stop people being like, “I’m so sick of seeing Taylor Swift, Travis Kelce, I’m so sick of seeing Taylor Swift, NFL, it’s annoying at this point. I don’t want to watch. I’m going to unfollow.”

And Jamila posting something like “This only happens with women.” Do you ever see people say they’re getting fatigued when the Marvel movie premieres or that they’re getting fatigued when I don’t know Justin Bieber’s doing something? No, but when it’s women, we kind of approve and let this narrative spin of like, “Oh, they want so much attention or We should move on,” or “This is so annoying,” or “Get over it already. And we really do see women have this very critical eye, and I think that the public kind of falls for that. And I also think too though, and maybe you feel this way, let me me know what your thoughts are. But when I think back on growing up and any celebrity or women that I didn’t like, it was just me feeling insecure that that person was so amazing or brilliant or successful, and I wanted those things. So what do you do? You tear them down.

Tori Dunlap:

That was it for me. I grew up doing theater. I was a singer, and this is so ridiculous because she’s Taylor Swift, but I thought “I can sing better than her. So why is she famous?” That’s honestly what I thought. And again, I want to admit this, I know it’s not nice. I know it’s not good, but it’s proof that we all have internalized misogyny. And to your point, it’s all about what the media is feeding us, especially at crucial times in our lives. So I wanted to talk to you about what was the narrative of Taylor Swift? Started as this country star and then pivots to pop. And then it seems like every marker of Taylor Swift’s life is in her boyfriends, is in controversy, is in these not moments of success or her career, it’s more about what the media thinks of her. So can you run me through a rough timeline of what kind of narratives we were saying about her?

Victoria Browne:

Yeah, I can do my best. I want to be very careful. It’s so funny because I love Taylor and actually to the very beginning when you’re like, “You’re the biggest fan ever,” there’s a part of me that is like, “I’m not.” There are some Swifties out there. They live it, they breathe it. I feel like I live and breathe it, but I will do my best. But I’m sure there are a million other ways that the amazing fans could communicate her timeline. But I would say she starts with her Taylor Swift first album ever, and it’s the very country, and she’s super young. Then she releases Fearless, which launches her into more of mainstream success. And then she comes out with Speak Now. And I remember when Speak Now came out and I literally bought the whole thing on my iTunes, a
nd then I was sitting there just listening to the songs in order.

And I remember exactly where I was. But then it was after Speak Now. After Speak Now was Red, which was country, but Pop. I think that’s when people started saying like, “Wait, this is pop. She’s pop.” And then she fully went for it with 1989 after Red being a pop album explicitly. And I remember when she was shifting genres and I don’t know, it kind of felt like everyone was like, “Can she do it? You are one thing.” That’s another thing about women is like you put them in this box of you’re this All-American young country. Can you hang in the big leagues with a pop album? And of course she totally could.

Tori Dunlap:

Again, I’m watching this as a young girl, and I’m realizing Speak Now isn’t an album entirely written by her. She had no co-writers. She had nobody else collaborating on that album. Yet all we could talk about during that time was who she was dating. That’s all we could talk about, at least in the broader media. If you weren’t in the fandom, the conversation was just, “Oh, Taylor Lautner, Joe Jonas eventually John Mayer.” That was just the conversation was it was just who she was dating, and then it was Kanye, and then it was just these moments, it wasn’t marking time in her career milestones or how many Grammys she won or how many albums she sold, or how much money she donated. It was in men. It was all markers of time based on men.

Victoria Browne:

And I feel like a lot of that is the result of what the media decided to take and what they decided to talk about. There were so many other things that like you said, we could have been talking about, but instead it was this hyper fixation on her love life. And even now it’s sad looking back on some of those interviews where she’s sitting on a talk show and then they pull up pictures of guys and just say, “Can you just confirm if you’ve dated?” She’s not there to do that. And then she has to be polite.

And she talks about that now in her Midnights album song, You’re On Your Own Kid, and she says, [Singing 00:16:16]. She’s saying she just took the hits. She did what she needed to do, but it sucked. And I feel so bad that the world did that to her. I feel grateful that I was always a fan, but I think it is so admirable Tori that you’re realizing how you thought about it and how you want to think about it now and to use yourself as an example. That takes a lot of bravery.

Tori Dunlap:

Oh, appreciate that. But I just think it’s a very, especially Taylor Swift, I just think is the unfortunate representation of a lot of that internalized misogyny. She’s an easy thing for me to point to and say, I know for me and countless other women, she was the human embodiment of a lot of the misogyny that we were taught or that was learned. And to your point, again, if the media wanted to talk about who she was dating from Jump, right? I was saying, “I don’t like her music because all she does is talk about boys.” And it’s like any song played on the radio. It’s a love song or it’s a song about sex or it’s about dating.

Victoria Browne:

Right. All the songs anyways were about relationships. Also, the biggest reason I loved her and her music was because it was about love and it was because she was a hopeless romantic, and it was because she painted this dream of this fairytale. And I loved that. I love, love is a beautiful thing. Really finding someone to love and who loves you back in this world is I think, the most magical thing that you can experience. And so for her music to be talking about the journey of finding that and finding herself through it and the ups and downs of it, I love that. I don’t think that’s fufu talk that’s silly, and we should focus on other things.

I think we see that now too. I do think it’s so important to celebrate women who choose to do those things, to have a career. They don’t want to get married. They don’t want to have kids. I love that. And it’s totally fine for people who want to be stay-at-home moms and they don’t want to work and they want to raise their kids and they want to make a meal for their partner. I don’t love that our pendulum has shifted to then shaming women who want

Tori Dunlap:

To

Victoria Browne:

Do the other thing. I think that we should be all going towards this notion of the woman should be able to do whatever she wants and what makes her happy without judgment. I know I get protective over my own mom. My mom was a stay-at-Home mom. My Yaya was a stay-at-home mom. She kept the house was very traditional, and then her parents were an arranged marriage from Greece. I’m the first woman in my family to have a career, a full career, and not make my husband dinner. And that’s what I want to do, and they’re proud of me, and I have so much pride for the way my mom was able to be there for me raising me. Do you know what I’m saying?

Tori Dunlap:

Right. Yeah. And we’ve talked about before on the show, and I want to make sure to highlight, stay at home parents are working. They’re just not compensated for that work. So if you’re choosing to show up however you want, and to your point, the goal is not this is what feminism looks like or this is what women should look like. That’s the exact opposite of what we’ve been fighting for this entire time. It is. You get to choose whatever that looks like as long as you’re not harming yourself or others, of course. But yeah, if you want to be a non compensated working mom, great. That’s a whole larger conversation about how society needs to support you better, but you should be able to choose that.

And I think that’s the whole thing of putting women into boxes, demanding how they show up in the world, how they show up in their relationships, how they show up in their careers. And one of the other things I wanted to talk to you about was the now infamous Taylor Swift, the calculated versus strategic, and discuss a little bit more about her as a business woman, because I think again, society, the economy is starting to finally wake up to all of this, but we’ve known this for years. So can you tell me in that interview what she said when she said calculated versus strategic, and how we’re now seeing that manifest after this summer of women?

Victoria Browne:

Yes, definitely. It’s one of my favorite Taylor Swift moments, and it was just brilliant. And she was so ahead of her time with this too. I feel like when she said this, people were just starting to think about this, and now it continues to resurface and people are like, “She’s so, so brilliant.” So Taylor says, “There’s a different vocabulary for men and women in the music industry.” She continues to say “A man does something and it’s strategic. A woman does the same thing. It’s calculated.” She then says, “A man is allowed to react. A woman can only overreact,” which is my favorite part of what she says. And I think in an essence, she’s trying to communicate that everything she’s done has been looked at in this complete analytical, judgmental lens under this microscope. And she talks about this in her song, the Man, which I feel like would be the Tori Dunlap fa
vorite Taylor Swift song ever.

Tori Dunlap:

Oh yeah, it’s great.

Victoria Browne:

It is literally so fucking good. The man is so good. And for everyone listening who hasn’t heard this song, if you listen to Financial Feminist, trust me, this is going to be your favorite song ever. It’s called The Man. And in that song, she continues on this kind of, let’s flip it on its head. And she says things like,” I would be complex. I would be cool. They’d say, I’d played the field before I found someone to commit to.”

Which is so funny, right? Because does anyone, I mean, Leonardo does get some crap now because of the age differences, but the way that men are like, it’s totally fine for them to have all these relationships and all these girlfriends, and they would just say, “Oh, he’s playing the field. He’s a batchelor.” It’s looked at in such a positive light, but then when it’s a female or it’s Taylor, it’s not. And then she says, that would be okay for me to do. Every conquest I had made would make me more of a boss to you. And so if you’re a guy and you’re achieving things, it’s like, “Whoa, you’re such a baller.” And even one of her lyrics is, “If I was out flashing my dollars-“

Tori Dunlap:

[Singing 00:22:32].

Victoria Browne:

“I’d be a bitch, not a baller.” It’s like, “God, that song is so genius.” And she just says, “I’m so sick of running as fast as I can, wondering if I’d get there quicker, if I was a man.”

Tori Dunlap:

Which my entire life, what I think about as I drift off to sleep at night. And I think, yeah, it’s this classic again, that even me as a woman is feeling this way towards her just again continues to prove her point. I was never looking at her being like, “Wow, that was a really strategic move.” Or, “Wow, that was a really smart thing that she did from a business perspective.” I can do that now. But back then I was like, “Yeah, all she wants to talk about are her boyfriends.” That’s just so not okay when you look at everything else that she’s done.

Victoria Browne:

And she’s had, I was just going to say, so many songs not about guys.

Tori Dunlap:

Oh, no.

Victoria Browne:

And they’re amazing.

Tori Dunlap:

For the song with her mom on Fearless. I can’t listen to it without crying.

Victoria Browne:

Oh my gosh. The Best Day. It’s the sweetest.

Tori Dunlap:

It’s such a sweet song.

Victoria Browne:

Yeah.

Tori Dunlap:

I’m literally, I’m tearing up even talking about, it’s such, it’s the sweetest little song. It’s so lovely.

Victoria Browne:

Yeah, there are so many songs like that, and people act like every single song is about a guy, and it’s so much more complex than that.

Tori Dunlap:

One of the other things that, and I would love to talk about our Eras tour experience, and I’m going to use this as the gateway into that. You and I were both lucky enough to go. I was lucky enough to see Taylor Swift for the first time. I had never seen her in concert. And then I also saw Beyonce, and I am a massive Beyonce fan. And the interesting thing that happened, literally every single person I talked to Vic, who knew I was going to both shows when I had told them because I saw Taylor, and then I saw Beyonce a couple weeks later and they asked me, “Oh, who was better?” Every single time they asked, “Oh, who is better Taylor or Beyonce?”

And every single time I thought to myself, “No, I’m not going to do this. I’m not going to do this.” And even my best friend Christine went with me to both of them. And she and I are much more Beyonce fans than Taylor fans, but we both, we appreciate both of them so much. We were doing the “Who’s a better performer, who had the better show?” And then we both looked at each other after a while and we’re like, “We’re not doing this. We’re not doing this compare. They’re very different artists. They have very different music styles. We’re not doing this.” And I think that’s another thing that happens is it’s so easy to compare ourselves to other women, women to other women. And it’s not this person standing on their own and their talent. It’s who’s better or whose voice is better, or whose stage presence is better or who’s a better business woman? And everything becomes a competition.

Victoria Browne:

And we don’t do that when it comes to Justin Bieber versus Harry Styles or The Weekend versus Drake. We view these male artists as they’re their own thing. You can’t compare Harry to Justin Bieber. They’re so different. They both are dudes who sing pop. But yet we look at Beyonce and Taylor who are so different and they do different things and they have different types of music. If we look at Taylor’s Folklore album, it’s so different than anything Beyonce’s done. And Beyonce has things that she does that are very different than Taylor. Why are we comparing them?

Tori Dunlap:

And I think, again, if we’re making the connections we can between Taylor Swift’s life and our own lives, we do this all the time. We compare ourselves to other women. We compare our careers or our relationships or how far we feel like we’ve come compared to somebody else. And as cheesy as it sounds, everybody says this, but everybody’s on their own path. You’re on your own path, Vic’s on her own path. We’re all on our own paths. And this comparison is just so rough.

Victoria Browne:

I think Society too has tried to condition women to believe that there has to be this scarcity mindset that there’s only one girl who can make it. Yep. There’s one seat. One girl will get chosen by the guy, the other will be depressed and alone and sad for the rest of her life. Literally. That’s what we see in the movies and the TV shows. I feel like in every TV show we saw growing up, there was a mean girl and then there was the other girl. And it was constantly, they were fighting against each other, whether it was in Lizzie McGuire, it was in Hannah Montana, or it was in Wizards of Waverly Place.

Tori Dunlap:

Or literally Mean Girls.

Victoria Browne:

Literally Mean Girls.

Tori Dunlap:

That’s all of Mean Girls.

Victoria Browne:

And so we then saw that and then would try to put ourselves in these boxes. Am I the mean girl? Am I this girl? But who’s my enemy? I can’t be friends with everyone. And it’s sad. And we get older and we evolve and we think about it and we realize, wait, there is room for everyone at the table. And wait, what if we just did a table of all women?

Tori Dunlap:

I feel like we’re having therapy. You just unlocked a thing for me, Vic, I grew up with very

Mean girl hierarchy at my school. And I went to a Catholic school where you were with the same 10 people for 10 years, and I was the kid that was bullied every day. And I got to the point where I had my girlfriends who I loved, but I didn’t really trust women or girls in general because it was like, “Oh, if I share this piece of information with you, it’s going to go somewhere. It becomes currency.” And probably around that same time was what I discovered Taylor Swift. And so it’s again, very interesting to see for me in my own life, and then again for women and girls in general of we are poised to see each other as enemies and we are poised to make enemies of other girls. And you get to a point where you do mature and you realize that that’s not okay, that’s not worth your time, that’s not where we want to go and we want to develop as individuals, but also as a community. And it’s really interesting.

Victoria Browne:

Well, I’m so glad that you are [Singing 00:28:48].

Tori Dunlap:

Can we talk about first with the Eras tour? I got New Romantics as my surprise song.

Victoria Browne:

That’s so iconic.

Tori Dunlap:

And I didn’t know the song before I started doing my deep dive a couple weeks before. I was like, okay. I knew a lot more Taylor songs than I thought I did first of all.

Victoria Browne:

[Singing 00:29:08]. That was probably so lit.

Tori Dunlap:

And now after the concert, I’m obsessed with that song. I don’t think she’s ever written a better song. That might be a controversial opinion. I don’t know. I don’t think-

Victoria Browne:

You haven’t heard them all. It’s a great song, but you’re just beginning if you didn’t know New Romantics.

Tori Dunlap:

I think it’s so good. I think it’s one of the best pops songs-

Victoria Browne:

It is so good.

Tori Dunlap:

… that’s ever been written, ever. I think it’s so good. I’m like, “This is the feeling of being young and alive in a little four minute bottle.” I’m like, “Got it. This is fantastic.” Talk to me about your Eras tour experience because you went twice and can I say, first of all, if you have not seen her vigilante outfit, Vic, you look so hot. And I know you’re in sexy girl era.

Victoria Browne:

I am.

Tori Dunlap:

You looked so-

Victoria Browne:

I’m trying to be.

Tori Dunlap:

… good. I left you I think three comments. I was like, “Holy shit. Holy fuck. Get the fuck out of here, Victoria.” I was like, “Oh my God, what?” You look so good. So talk to me about Eras tour. Talk to me about Max as the scarf. Talk to me about seeing all of it. And then I can tell you as someone who purposefully watched no clips from the show, I tried to go in as blind as possible. I’ll give you my perspective as well.

Victoria Browne:

Okay. I love it. Well, about the costume, I am currently trying to allow myself to feel sexy, be sexy. I just released an episode this morning on my podcast, Real Pod called “My Sexy Journey officially starts today,” and I kind of dive into, actually, we need to talk about this maybe another time. But I grew up being told this story from my grandma’s of, “You can be a China cup or you can be a styrofoam cup and how do you want to be treated?” And it basically, it really shaped me into feeling like not only am I an object to be used, but I don’t want to be trashy. I don’t want to be slutty. And so now I’m realizing I want to be in touch with my sexy side, my feminine side. So if that’s interesting to anyone, I do a deep dive.

Tori Dunlap:

Also a thing with Taylor, I feel like she’s gone on her own little journey too with that.

Victoria Browne:

I was so inspired by it, seriously because it’s one of the hottest things I’ve ever seen, the Vigilante Shit number in Choreo. And so when thinking about what outfit that I wanted to do, I thought I want to do Vigilante Shit because I want to push my boundaries of trying to feel sexier. And I love that Taylor was kind of leading the way. That’s another thing about why love her so much. I feel like she’s always either doing the thing at the same time as me or before me and giving me advice.

Tori Dunlap:

I love that.

Victoria Browne:

She’s so big sis energy, and I can call out specific examples. It’s kind of crazy throughout all of her songwriting, I feel like that’s how everyone feels where like she’s writing for me.

Tori Dunlap:

Yes.

Victoria Browne:

But it was unreal. I was so excited to go. LA was her last stop in the Eras tour in the US at least until she released the new dates.

And so I was just waiting and waiting and waiting, and I was watching stuff online. I literally couldn’t resist. I mean, the first opening night I watched a live stream because I just needed to know what’s the first song? What’s the opening? It was so iconic. But I didn’t do set list research to see the order. I felt like there was a lot that I didn’t know or was surprised at when I was there, which I was excited about. And yeah, I went with my husband Max, and I dressed him up as the scarf from All Too Well. I knew I wanted him to have a really ic
onic, original costume. I love costumes. I love making them. I love being creative. It’s really fun for me. And I don’t know why. I just thought to myself “He needs to be the scarf.” I do these videos with him where I explain Taylor Swift songs to him.

Tori Dunlap:

They’re my favorite.

Victoria Browne:

And he is always kind of had this weird intrigue with the scarf. He’s like, “The scarf, it was left at Jill Hall’s house. What’s the scarf?” And so-

Tori Dunlap:

Oh, that’s my favorite, where he was like, “Wait, but how do we know it’s the scarf?” And you’re like, “I have to continue with the rest of the song. But we know because he was photographed and it’s Maggie just shut up.” And he was obsessed with trying. It was like he was a detective and he was like-

Victoria Browne:

Oh my gosh.

Tori Dunlap:

“But the scarf and it’s what color? And it’s like what design? And it was left where and how do we know it was left there?”

Victoria Browne:

Literally. And so when I told him he was going to be the scarf, because of course he had no choice or say in the matter, I said, “You’re not just going to wear a scarf. I said, you’re going to be the scarf.” And so I went to Joanne’s and I got this big piece of fabric, and then I tied on this fringe and we put his arms through it. It was pretty iconic.

Tori Dunlap:

It really was.

Victoria Browne:

Thank you. And it was so fun to go with him and he, speaking of people who are becoming Swifties and converting, I had done a lot of work on him prior to the concert. This man’s, he was in absolute awe from the fans, the kindness, everyone standing, singing, screaming, dancing, Taylor nonstop going going for her entire show. And then she did five nights in LA. I think did she add a sixth? I’m blanking.

Tori Dunlap:

Six, six.

Victoria Browne:

But six nights, and he is now certifiably… He literally said to me, he’s like, “Well, whenever Taylor Swift performs again, I mean, we can even fly there. Just let me know. I’m in.”

Tori Dunlap:

Which you’re like, “Yes-“

Victoria Browne:

I’m like “Okay, babe.”

Tori Dunlap:

“Yes, we got him.”

Victoria Browne:

He would take off a Friday work and go with me somewhere to see, oh, I’m so happy it’s going to make our marriage nice and great for the rest of our life.

Tori Dunlap:

Well, and that’s one of the things that I think was so cool is I grew up in the Seattle area. Max is from Seattle. He was even known in Seattle communities as the star football player and then went to USC, played football. I just love the classic version of what you would expect to be this like, “Oh yeah, okay.” But Taylor Swift, she’s not good. And then just completely bought in and he made a video. And we can Lincoln in the show notes that I loved of “Taylor Swift is an athlete. I don’t want to hear that she isn’t, and here’s why she is.” And it was just, yeah, it was great. It was so fun.

Victoria Browne:

No, he never disliked her. Even when I first started the videos, thank goodness I would’ve never dated him. He just didn’t, wasn’t fully in it. He didn’t understand. Max, I kind of joke. He has this thing, he doesn’t listen to lyrics. He listens to the melody and the sound of the music. So when I say “Listen to what she’s saying,” it’s like he has to turn on another part of his brain. Because some people just listen. They don’t know lyrics. If I asked him to sing, this is actually really funny, really funny. I once said, “Max, I need you to sing a song for me from start to finish and it can’t be happy birthday.” He literally doesn’t know the lyrics to one full song, which is so crazy because I know the lyrics to hundreds of songs.

Tori Dunlap:

I have the same thing with my partner. He cannot remember lyrics to anything and even the songs he likes now, there’s a couple, if he’s listening to this, he’s going to be mad at me. He listens to a lot of Grime. He knows Grime lyrics ironically. But other than that, nah. Can’t get him to sing anything.

Victoria Browne:

Yeah, I feel like some people are just into it musically, and obviously you with a music background are for sure. But yeah, the concerts certainly solidified his Swiftness. He still has his friendship bracelets sitting by his bedside table. I’m like, one of them says, “Gyllanballs.” I’m like, “Are you going to keep those there? Are you going to put them away?” He still has his bracelets out. He’d be so mad if I said that.

Tori Dunlap:

Oh, that’s really cute though. Yeah. My Eras tour experience was, again, I had never seen her in concerts. I tried as much as I could as a very online person to not have any spoilers, and that was extremely difficult. I did listen to They have Spotify playlist of the set list, and I listened to that because I felt like I needed to know as many of the words as possible, or I wasn’t going to have as good of a time. I actually cried when she came out. I will fully admit that. I full on cried when she came out.

Victoria Browne:

I love that. That’s the only, it’s the normal way to react. I cry every time her first song happens on a tour I’ve been.

Tori Dunlap:

Well, when you look on paper, Miss Americana feels like such a weird opener and you’re like, “This doesn’t make any sense.” And then you see it in concert and you’re like, “This is the most perfect opener of any concert ever.” And especially concert after COVID to start. It’s been a long time coming, and then she just is there and you’re just like, “Ah.” It’s just crazy.

Victoria Browne:

Wait, did you see my video I made saying that?

Tori Dunlap:

Maybe. Did I? Just stole this from you and didn’t know it? Tell me about that.

Victoria Browne:

No,
it’s okay. I’m proud to be your Swifty content. I was going to say it makes so much sense because of the lyrics. It’s been a long time coming. And I thought it was genius too, speaking of her genius, how she interwove the, “I was born in 1989” and she puts all of her album titles in it.

Tori Dunlap:

I get chills, even you just saying that.

Victoria Browne:

I know.

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah. Fearless, all of the…

Victoria Browne:

I love that you cried though.

Tori Dunlap:

It’s one of the best concert openers I think that’s ever been created. It’s fantastic.

Victoria Browne:

Oh, fully. And those pedal things, I mean, who even comes up with that? That was beautiful.

Tori Dunlap:

Everybody’s talking about it, but we do have to talk about the fact that she went for three and a half hours. I will admit, as someone who wasn’t the biggest Taylor Swift fan and who also TMI had a major stomach bug the day I went to the concert. I was getting to two hours, 45 minutes. And I was like, “Wow, okay, how much longer are we going to go?” And when I reflect on it was this moment where I realized I thought I was at a concert. You’re not at a concert. If you go to the Eras tour, you’re at theater. It’s a theatrical production. It is a what? Eight act, nine act play, musical where you’re in it for the long haul. And there are very brief intermissions where you might get to go to the bathroom, me more than others because stomach bug, but-

Victoria Browne:

Oh my God, there’s no intermissions. You would miss something.

Tori Dunlap:

No, just like these breaks where she went to change an assumingly, got a sip of water, and then came back up. It was like two, three minutes maybe.

Victoria Browne:

Seriously, I think about this often. Even yesterday, I worked a mental health booth for my nonprofit, and then I came home and then I drove an hour and I did a talk for a college. And I just did those two things, which is a pretty big day. And when I tell you this morning, I feel like the wind has been knocked out of me, and I’m so exhausted. I literally think about Taylor Swift. I’m like, “How? how did she do that?”

Multiple nights in a row, consistently, month after month after month, the weekend after, weekend after weekend, traveling, performing, giving the same energy to every night. It is insane. And I don’t know if we will ever know what her rehab post prehab routine was for the performing because she is so secretive, which is another part of her genius, but I am so intrigued. I feel like she has to come off of that and probably is on rest. Her voice doesn’t speak all night, get some massage, a cold bath. But how does she go to sleep? Because when you come up with something like that, you’re at such a high, literally, how is she sleeping? And then if you take a sleeping pill or something, you’re groggy and then you wake up the next morning and you don’t have the energy. I want to know how she even turned her brain off.

Tori Dunlap:

Right. Well, I think about, again, I know a bit more about Beyonce and she’s talked about, I think she works out at the beginning of the day. She gets a workout in, and then she has all of her routines.

Victoria Browne:

What? The workout is, the performance.

Tori Dunlap:

No, it’s not. It’s not. It’s like that’s the second workout later. She goes and does a full workout, I think in the morning or the early afternoon and then performs later. So I imagine Taylor’s doing something similar. The routine. I want to, because just I’m nosy and curious, not because I feel like I can copy it, because I want to highlight for you, and I know you know this. But the classic, you have the same hours in the day as Taylor Swift or Beyonce. It’s like we don’t have personal chefs. We don’t have three physical trainers or personal trainers. We don’t have a massage therapist at our beck and call. I think it’s very inspirational. And at the same time, rest, please, Vic rest.

Victoria Browne:

Well, I almost wonder if she has an oxygen chamber. She has to where they literally give her oxygen, you know how those things exist? I’m so intrigued, but to your point, I do think it is so unique to her and what she’s doing that yeah, I don’t know if we’ll ever get that information.

Tori Dunlap:

I would love to also discuss the thing that everybody else is talking about, which is the summer of women, the boost to the economy that we’ve known forever. But again, I think society’s just now starting to discuss. We had this summer, the Barbie movie. We had a Taylor Swift mega tour. We had a Beyonce mega tour. We had all of these moments of women. And again, I think for all of us we’re like, yeah, duh. We’ve been keeping the economies running forever. But people are just now starting to understand both the economic power of women, these communities that are so incredible. Any thoughts to share on all of that?

Victoria Browne:

It’s just amazing. And I feel grateful to be in my twenties witnessing this, being inspired by it, being motivated by it. I think even just watching Taylor at SoFi Stadium and looking around and thinking, “All of these people are here for one woman.” It just sends chills through your body thinking about the power that she holds. And like I said, I’m grateful to be witnessing it. I even think it’s funny seeing how the Taylor Swift, Travis Kelce rumors just completely increased and skyrocketed the NFL viewership rating purchases. And it’s just kind of funny because the dude club thinks they have this great thing going, and they do. It’s the NFL, but just the star power of one woman and Taylor Swift completely, they didn’t even know how to handle the influx of attention it brought from women.

Tori Dunlap:

Showing up at one game. And I think, yeah, it’s again, back to what we talk about on the show a lot what you and I have talked about in this episode, which is there are certain things that are deemed worthy of attention, and those certain things that are deemed worthy of attention are masculine or stereotypically male things. Those are the things that are worthy of media and respect. Something like the NFL. And even in the conversations now that are starting, it’s like, “Okay, Taylor Swift’s at the NFL, can we stop talking about this? It’s not a big deal.” And it’s like it actually is. We can see financially it’s a big deal. We can
see from earned media, it’s a big deal. But we’ve been told as women that these things that we, again, stereotypically, but these things that we enjoy are not as valuable. I think about romance novels as the perfect example. That is the number one genre of books in terms of sales, in terms of popularity, it’s romance novels. We have been carrying the economy on our backs this entire time.

And I think people are now starting to understand, wow, maybe these things that women love deserve funding and deserve attention and deserve more of a platform. And I’m sure you saw this too, but there was a lot of conversation with the Barbie movie where people were going, “Oh, this movie was so successful. We need to make more movies about toys because that’s what worked.” And it was like, “No, that’s not the thing that worked. It’s not make more movies about toys. That’s not the conclusion. The conclusion is make more movies by and for women. That’s the conclusion.” So even with this new, relatively new, as we’re recording this NFL, Travis Kelce Taylor Swift thing, it’s just so interesting that again, we’re told that certain things are valuable or worth our time worth, our money, worth our attention. And they’re very rarely the things that women actually enjoy or that women actually are producing. And we’re hopefully starting to change that.

Victoria Browne:

And this makes me think about how women and the things that we like, let’s say it’s romance novels, is maybe being judged as like, oh, that’s so frivolous and silly and it doesn’t have substance yet. The dudes who’ve been playing Call of Duty for decades, that’s fine. You’re killing fake people on your computer, but that’s totally fine. But we can’t read at the Twilight series?

Tori Dunlap:

See, what I wrote about in my book and what we talked about here, even spending, right? The word frivolous is only about women’s spending. It’s about lattes and manicures. And you and I talked about this with your engagement dress or is a bridal shower dress. Those are the things that are “frivolous.” It’s not NFL season tickets, and it’s not video games, and it’s not golf clubs. Those are not frivolous purchases. The frivolous purchases are the things that are stereotypically feminine. And hopefully that’s starting to change.

Victoria Browne:

I think it is, especially because of podcasts like yours and the work that you’re doing. I mean, I feel like I’m constantly thinking about things differently when you pull back the curtain. So I think it is changing, and I think you’re a big reason Tori.

Tori Dunlap:

Oh, thank you. You’re so kind. Any final thoughts about Taylor Swift in general? Anything we discussed today? I’m wrapping us up even though I don’t want to wrap us up.

Victoria Browne:

Just that Taylor Swift is a Mastermind Easter egg, and let me give some songs that I think that the Financial Feminist community would love. So The Man for sure. By the way, if any of these, you can listen to Taylor’s version. Listen to Taylor’s version.

Tori Dunlap:

We didn’t even talk about, this is why we need three episodes about this. Because I literally had it on my notes that as part of her being a great business woman, we need to talk about the Scooter Braun and shit. But we don’t even have time for Taylor Swift rerecorded a bunch of her albums because stupid Scooter Braun brought the masters and she was like, “No, I’m not going to do that. I’m going to re-record them all.” And then her fans are so loyal that they were like, “Cool, I’m going to listen to these instead.” And it’s just so fucking smart. And then every time she re-Release is an album that’s already been out for 10 fucking years, it charts. So it’s just so smart. Anyway, that’s my TLDR of that. She’s brilliant. It’s great.

Victoria Browne:

It is insane. It’s the power she holds that she knew she could release the same album and her fans would just listen to that one instead. Like genius.

Tori Dunlap:

Ultimate just like, “Fuck you Scooter Braun. You spent all this money. Fuck you. Doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter.” What was it? What’s the fucking quote? Hold on. “Pennies made your crown,” right? It’s so great. Anyway-

Victoria Browne:

Well, before I go, I want to say Mad Woman is another one that, have you heard that one Tori?

Tori Dunlap:

What album is that on?

Victoria Browne:

It’s on folklore. [Singing 00:48:35]-

Tori Dunlap:

I have not heard that one.

Victoria Browne:

[Singing 00:48:37]. Oh my God. Mad Woman is so good.

Tori Dunlap:

I will literally grab my little [inaudible 00:48:40].

Victoria Browne:

It’s all about how you just get poked and pride and provoked until you snap. And then they say, “Ha, you’re a mad woman. See, you’re crazy and you’re all these things.” But it’s like, “But you did all this shit. What was I supposed to do?” Okay, so here we have The Man. You’re on Your Own Kid. Mad Woman also. Also oh, No Body No Crime. That is an amazing one of besties getting… You just listening to the lyrics. But that one’s for the girls.

Tori Dunlap:

That one’s with HAIM, right? No Body No Crime?

Victoria Browne:

Yeah. Do you know that one Tori? It’s so fucking good.

Tori Dunlap:

I do. It’s the version of The Chick song Earl had to Die. That’s always what I think of. Do you know that song Goodbye Earl?

Victoria Browne:

Right I think about before. It’s very like Before He Cheats, which I love.

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah.

Victoria Browne:

Vigilante Shit. Obviously that’s the necessary Listen Mastermind. Yes. The Financial Feminist Peeps will love that. Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve. Those are some amazing listens for your squad. I feel good about those selects for your squad. Oh, wait, wait, wait. We didn’t even get to Reputation because Financial Feminist just gives Reputation.

Tori Dunlap:

I was going t
o say Reputation is my, that was the era I addressed as.

Victoria Browne:

Okay. Also, I Did Something Bad.

Tori Dunlap:

Oh, I did Something… [Singing 00:50:00]. I love that. She’s like, they say, [Singing 00:50:03]. Have you heard Cynthia Erivo and Shoshana Bean’s cover of that? Have you heard that?

Victoria Browne:

No.

Tori Dunlap:

Do you know who the two of those people are?

Victoria Browne:

Oh, yes. Are you kidding? My Elphaba? I need to hear it.

Tori Dunlap:

It is incredible.

Victoria Browne:

Okay. Yay. I can’t… Also, This Is Why We Can’t Have Nice Things is about Kanye West. I think the people would love that too.

Tori Dunlap:

You’re going to hate this because I know it’s really basic, but Look What You Made Me Do also goes on this. It has to go in this playlist.

Victoria Browne:

Yeah, of course. Those are the givens. I’m trying to give some of the ones that maybe-

Tori Dunlap:

The [inaudible 00:50:32] cuts.

Victoria Browne:

… are a little more next level or beyond the surface.

Tori Dunlap:

You know what? My favorite song, this might earn me some points. You know what my favorite Taylor Swift song is of all time?

Victoria Browne:

What?

Tori Dunlap:

Begin Again.

Victoria Browne:

Oh, okay.

Tori Dunlap:

I love that one. It did not chart.

Victoria Browne:

[Singing 00:50:52].

Tori Dunlap:

I was obsessed with it in college. I love it.

Victoria Browne:

I would not expect that.

Tori Dunlap:

Vic, thank you for being here. Tell us where we can find you, where we can find your content. Plug away.

Victoria Browne:

Thanks for having me. I love being on your pod. You all can find me on my podcast called Real Pod. I’ve had Tori. It was great. Have I had you twice? Yeah, I’ve had you twice. Gosh. Love that. We need to make it three sometime soon. And then on Instagram and TikTok at victoriabrowne, let’s be friends.

Tori Dunlap:

She also has an incredible nonprofit called The Hidden Opponents, and you can follow that too. Vic, thank you as always for being here.

Victoria Browne:

Yeah. Anyone interested in Athlete Mental Health come through.

Tori Dunlap:

Amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much to Vic for joining us for this episode. As I mentioned before, she is an incredible friend of mine as well as just so Wise and has a great podcast on her own called Real Pod. You can go and follow her. We have it linked in the show notes, and also you can subscribe to Real Pod wherever you’re listening to podcast right now. Thank you so much for being here as always, Financial Feminist. We appreciate it. I’m trying to think of a very good Swifty sendoff. I’m learning. I’m a Swifty in training everybody. I’m sorry. I have it. I got it. Okay. It took me a while to think of the Swifty sendoff, but we’ve got it. I was enchanted to meet you. Thanks for being here. Okay, bye.

Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer Tamisha Grant, marketing and Administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Kalul Damaz, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda Lafuente, Masha Bachmetyeva, Kailyn Sprinkle, Sumaya Mulla-Carillo and Harvey Carlson. Researched by Ariel Johnson, audio engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests and episode show notes. Visit financialfeministpodcast.com.