So immediately I’m going to be like, “He wants something. I’m so easy. I’m so chill. I’m laid back.”

Tori Dunlap:

It’s same thing with dating, right?

Hannah Berner:

Oh, for sure.

Tori Dunlap:

It’s the cool girl.

Hannah Berner:

Oh my God, that’s such a great comparison because I was definitely guilty of cool girl pick me vibes when I was in my twenties.

Tori Dunlap:

It’s Gone Girl shit.

Hannah Berner:

Yes. It would be so hot in the room and he’d be like, “I don’t want to turn the air conditioning on.” I’d be like, “Yeah, I’m fine.”

And I’m dying of heat. I’m so chill. I’ll watch any movie. The second I realized that when I was being authentic to myself, I actually would attract the right people and be in the right situation… We have this scarcity mindset sometimes that like, “I got this job offer. I think it’s going to be really good. I don’t want to fuck it up.”

Tori Dunlap:

Yep, yep. That’s everything. And what happens is, and again, there’s also bias here, where when we do negotiate there’s people who don’t love it, but it’s like we’re so scared of losing something. Again, so scared of failing that we’re not going to do it. And typically, the worst they can say is no. I have seen the occasional, they’ve rescinded the job offer, but that’s not a company you want to work for anyway.

Hannah Berner:

No.

Tori Dunlap:

They have done you a favor. If they are not willing to have a conversation about compensation with you, they are not going to be willing to see your value during your entire tenure of employment. So the worst they can say is no. Okay.

Hannah Berner:

Do you have have any rules about when you get offered a certain deal?

Tori Dunlap:

Yes. Yes.

Hannah Berner:

Do you ever take it for what it is?

Tori Dunlap:

Very rarely. We almost always negotiate. This is where the “What’s your budget question…” If you work for yourself, if you’re a freelancer, also, if you’re a nine to fiver, the question that is still asked in job interviews all the time is, “What are your salary expectations?” And you’re like, “I don’t fucking know.”

Hannah Berner:

I hate when they ask that because-

Tori Dunlap:

So the answer-

Hannah Berner:

-I’ll always be like, the smallest number I could think of.

Tori Dunlap:

So the answer to, “What are your salary expectations?” is “It’s too early in the process for me to adequately price myself. But I’d love to know your budget.”

Hannah Berner:

Love that.

Tori Dunlap:

And nine times out of ten, they’ll give it to you. Nine times out of ten.

Hannah Berner:

So let’s say I want to do a brand deal with you. And say, “Oh my God, we’re obsessed you. We love you. We’d love to have you on. Can you do a post for $2,000?”

Tori Dunlap:

First of all, any number that they’re giving you, they expect you to go higher.

Hannah Berner:

Yes. People have to know that. This is a dance.

Tori Dunlap:

For brand deals, for companies. Because companies, brands, again, nine to five employment, entrepreneurship, influencer, they expect you to negotiate. And when you don’t, one, it looks like, “Oh, maybe they’re not as good as they showed in the interview or they’re showing on social media because they’re not negotiating,” and you’re about to lose out on a bunch of money.

Hannah Berner:

Or you have the situation where somehow you spoke first and they just take it, and you go “Fuck.”

Tori Dunlap:

That’s the thing. This is why we don’t give a number first. Because if you give a number first and they’re like, “Yeah, cool,” that’s too low. They should push back because your number’s too high. So the goal with the negotiation is you and your boss or this brand are not on opposing teams, you’re on the same team. And that’s one of the common things I hear is people are like, “Oh, I’m so scared because it’s like a fight. It’s an argument.” No, it is a collaboration, not a conflict.

Hannah Berner:

Yes.

Tori Dunlap:

You are problem solving, right?

Hannah Berner:

Yes.

Tori Dunlap:

And you are probably-

Hannah Berner:

Because they want you to be happy in your position.

Tori Dunlap:

And you are a great problem solver. It’s what makes you good at your job. So when you’re solving the problem and not being compensated fairly, that’s all a negotiation is. So if you’re at $2,000 and your normal rate is 10, don’t ask for 10 because they’ll give you five. You’re going to meet in the middle from 2 to 10 and somewhere there. If you have this rate that’s 10, that’s where you want to land, you’re going to ask for 12 to 15. Same thing with the salary. You have to go out and do some research. You have to figure out what you should be getting paid. If I’m a social media marketer and I’m supposed to be making 60K a year, and they offer me 50, and I ask for 60, I’m at 55. So ask for more than you are expecting.

Hannah Berner:

When you’re starting a job, when you research, how much is that market research of average salary accurate?

Tori Dunlap:

Great question. I talk about this in my book. A lot of people just research on Glassdoor and they’re like, “Cool, I’m done.” No, that’s like your first place to look. To get really good information, this is where the talking to people has to come in. The amount of conversations I have with other content creators… I literally had a post on TikTok go viral because I was literally like, “Here’s what I charge. Here’s what I charge for an Instagram post. Here’s what I charge for TikTok.”

Hannah Berner:

Because no one talks about it.

Tori Dunlap:

No, because no one talks about it. Here’s what exclusivity costs, here’s what you should should be charging for.

Hannah Berner:

I’ve definitely lost deals before because at the last second they go, “Oh, actually someone’s gonna do it for free.” And I remember getting-

Tori Dunlap:

Don’t fucking do do that.

Hannah Berner:

It was actually, this is crazy. I’ve never talked about it. I got offered to be on a Super Bowl commercial, and they weren’t going to pay me that much.

Tori Dunlap:

This is where I’m like, “I’ll work for exposure.”

Hannah Berner:

No, they were going to pay 30K or something for a Superbowl commercial, which is not a lot.

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah, it sounds like a lot, but it’s not a lot at all.

Hannah Berner:

But for a Super Bowl commercial, people are getting paid millions of dollars.

Tori Dunlap:

Oh, yeah. It’s not a lot.

Hannah Berner:

And I already… Whatever. So I was like, “This is the greatest thing I’ve ever heard.”

Tori Dunlap:

We’re going to have to talk about this off my [inaudible 00:37:07].

Hannah Berner:

I told my team, “Done. I’m fine with 30. I just want to be on a Super Bowl commercial. That’d be so fucking cool.”

Tori Dunlap:

But they’re also not just going to use it for the Super Bowl. They’re going to use it in perpetuity for-

Hannah Berner:

Basically, my team was not happy with the 30 for a Super Bowl commercial and for the extent of it. Also, there were complications. But basically, I had to cancel something and I was just waiting. And they’re like, “We’re just negotiating. We’re negotiating.” And they’re at the end of the weekend, next Monday, they just call me and they go, “They’re just getting an actress to do it for free actually.” And I remember being like, “I’ll do it for free.” And they’re like, “We will not sacrifice your… Because if you want to work with this brand in the future, you’ve lost all credibility.”

Tori Dunlap:

That’s so fucked.

Hannah Berner:

It was so fucked up, and I was so upset. And then I watched the commercial, and the girl was great in it, but they went for not a name kind of thing. But sometimes what I’ve learned, instead of a scarcity mindset, when things fall through, it means that other doors are going to open.

Tori Dunlap:

Which is hard to say to somebody who’s like, “I just need to fucking pay my bills.” And I get it. I get it. There’s a balance there too. There are plenty of things that I didn’t get monetary compensation for, but there were other things I got.

Hannah Berner:

Oh, for sure. Well, also, when I was starting off, I remember just being so abused financially, literally works. But in my head knew big picture, I was like, “These are the skills I need for the next thing.” But that’s also privilege for me to be able to be like, “I can live with my parents and get this done because I live in New York City. And a lot of people don’t have a house in New York City that they could work from and go back and forth.” Even though my parents wanted to kill me because I was there too long.

But what’s also interesting to me is that once you agree to a low salary, it’s so much harder to get the raises because you can’t then be like, “Okay, now I want twice as much.”

Tori Dunlap:

That’s the other thing that people don’t understand. Yes, $5,000 extra is dope right now, but you know what happens? Then, your next salary, you’re asking for more money. Versus if you don’t ask for money, then your second job you’re working the salary that you could have gotten had you negotiated.

Hannah Berner:

Yes. I think a lot of people-

Tori Dunlap:

Million dollars women lose by not negotiating over the course of their life. A million dollars.

Hannah Berner:

That’s not with investing either.

Tori Dunlap:

No. No. There’s this quote, I think it was a psychologist, I quoted it in my book. They were like, “Are you willing to sacrifice a million dollars just to avoid an uncomfortable conversation?”

Hannah Berner:

No.

Tori Dunlap:

Are you willing to sacrifice literally a million dollars just to avoid a couple uncomfortable conversations?

Hannah Berner:

And when you say uncomfortable conversations, just so people know, I remember having a panic attack, my heart beating, sweating. You’re 24 and you know have to ask this man something that’s going to-

Tori Dunlap:

Yep. 23, I was was walking in as CFO.

Hannah Berner:

I remember I had to practice. I remember sending the email. It was horrible.

Tori Dunlap:

I just found my notes that I made for the first time I negotiated. It literally looks like, you know when you get a note card for like, “It’s a final, but it’s an open book final. And you get one note card.” That’s what it looked like. It was a mess. It was everything I had prepared.

Hannah Berner:

As someone who’s failed at negotiating before… I had a marketing job that was miserable and I hated, but I was doing so much work for this company. It wasn’t marketing. I was doing customer service. It was a four person company. I was doing everything. And I remember finally being like… No, he sent me an email at the end of the year and was like, “You’re not getting a raise.” And I remember that being a sign. And I was getting paid 45K. And I remember that being a sign, being like, “This is not the right place for me.” And I remember I quit. And he made some joke, he was like, “You should have threatened to use your health insurance against whatever. Say that you wanted me to pay your health insurance and take that.” I don’t know what he said.

Tori Dunlap:

He’s like, “Here are my red flags on your way out.”

Hannah Berner:

So then I was like, “Okay, thank you.” So I kind of quit because I was like, “There’s no future in this company.” And then ended up becoming an entrepreneur and doing my own thing. Which is a whole nother, it’s difficult obviously, but a whole nother situation. I just know that if I’m talking to my employees, I know fight for the money, but then the way you get the real raise is by going to another job.

Tori Dunlap:

Job hopping is this thing that’s shammed.

Hannah Berner:

In the ’80s they wanted corporate ladder.

Tori Dunlap:

We had a whole episode on this with my friend who’s another finance creator. She has job hopped every year and a half, two years. And literally 20, 30, 40% increases every fucking time.

Hannah Berner:

Because I can’t get 80 from you, and then the next year be like, “I want 120.” You’d be like, “You’re fucking crazy.” But I can get 80 from you, and then go to another company and say, “I get paid a hundred. I want 120.”

Tori Dunlap:

You have more negotiating power when you first start a job than you will ever have during your entire time there.

Hannah Berner:

Yeah. Because once you start, isn’t it just like increments of 10K basically?

Tori Dunlap:

Typically. Yeah. Well, and the thing is too, it’s one of those things where it’s just like, “Oh, we want you. We got you.” And then people think, “Oh, loyalty pays.” That’s another thing, especially women, it’s like, “I will do my job, and I’ll show up, and I’ll be a really good employee, and I won’t raise my hand, and I won’t do anything. But they’ll see me. They’ll see me, and loyalty will be rewarded.” My best friend was at a company for eight years. I can’t even tell you how much shit went down at this company. And literally, they were asking her to come into work, and she’s like, “I can do my job remotely. What are you doing?”

And they were like, “Sorry.” So basically, she was forced to quit. She quit. In her two weeks, going through everything, they opened her job with a better title and 20K more.

Hannah Berner:

How does that even make sense?

Tori Dunlap:

It doesn’t.

Hannah Berner:

I had a job that I was working full weekends because I loved it so much, and I started this department, basically, doing video. And then they couldn’t give me a raise, so I was like, “Can I have a title change?” And they’re like, “You don’t run this.” And I was like, “What?”

Tori Dunlap:

Thank you. That’s a great thing though. I talk about negotiating for when salary doesn’t happen: what are the things you can negotiate?

Hannah Berner:

Because at least I could tell my next person I was this.

Tori Dunlap:

Look at you. Yes.

Hannah Berner:

They basically-

Tori Dunlap:

It didn’t work.

Hannah Berner:

Well, then I realized that they were like, “You’re not anyone’s boss here. You’re not this.” Because sometimes the bosses are so disconnected from what’s happening day to day in their department.

Tori Dunlap:

And the ego of titles.

Hannah Berner:

And then I realized, I was like, “Wait, if I’m…” I was at this company where I had sales experience. So I was not only getting on the phone with brands to sell brands for them of what video I was going to make for them, cast the video, make the video, act in the video, edit the video. And my salary was half than one of these videos was worth. And I was doing 40 of them. And that’s why I’m where I am now because I go, “Wait, I could have done that for myself.”

Tori Dunlap:

And you fucking did.

Hannah Berner:

And I did. And to them it’s like, “Okay, you don’t think I’m doing this? Well, now I’m just going to put the money in my own pocket.” But when you’re 25 and 26, you, you’re scared. I thought I was going to do that job my whole life. I’m like, “This is my favorite job ever had.”

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah. And then you become disillusioned.

Hannah Berner:

And then you realize… See, but I’m jaded where I can never work for the man.

Tori Dunlap:

The man is looking more and more appealing to me. I’m going to be honest with you. It’s very interesting. I won’t go back, but-

Hannah Berner:

Why?

Tori Dunlap:

Entrepreneurship’s fucking hard. You all are vicious in the comments. People are so mean.

Hannah Berner:

Oh, well, that’s being a public profile.

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah. And it’s also just… I have a team. I am so-

Hannah Berner:

You need to be out of the comments.

Tori Dunlap:

Oh, yeah. That’s easier said than done. I’m trying to be. I also then feel bad that somebody else has to read them. It is one of those things though where it would be really, really nice to shut my laptop at five, in theory, on a Friday and not have to worry about work again till Monday.

Hannah Berner:

Oh, yeah. I work on weekends because I’m a standup.

Tori Dunlap:

But literally, the 20 thoughts before I fall asleep at night are all about the business.

Hannah Berner:

Some people say that a salary is more addicting than a heroin addiction.

That a monthly salary is more a addicting.

Tori Dunlap:

For me, it’s not money. We’re making great money. That’s not the problem.

Hannah Berner:

You’re like, “It’s not the money, it’s the lifestyle.”

Tori Dunlap:

It’s just the feeling all the time of just… Also, it’s my ambition. This is a conversation that I’ll have with my therapist.

Hannah Berner:

No, this is good.

Tori Dunlap:

My ambition is the reason I am where I am. I want books, and a TV deal, and I want to sell out stadiums on a speaking tour, and I want everybody to know my name. And then there’s a part of me that’s like, “I want complete anonymity.”

Hannah Berner:

You want to be on a farm in Wyoming.

Tori Dunlap:

Literally. I want a cabin. And Wyoming’s great. Jackson. Literally, I want no one to know my name. I want to adopt dogs. I want read books and do puzzles.

Hannah Berner:

I think you get successful enough that you can do that in peace.

Tori Dunlap:

Well, the goal is, in the meantime, to have something in the middle. Because I know that all of anonymity will not make me happy, and all of public person will also not make me happy. So I’m trying to find the medium. But my ambition, in way, is a fucking drug. I do feel like sometimes I overdose.

Hannah Berner:

For sure.

Tori Dunlap:

To the point where I’m just working so hard and I’m like, “I need to get this thing. And oh, I’m on this platform, and I need to be on this platform.”

Hannah Berner:

And then your other parts of your life are suffering even though you’re like, “I’m making money.”

Tori Dunlap:

Totally.

Hannah Berner:

“I’m checking all the corporate boxes or whatever I wanted to do.” But I would say, once you get some success, and if you’re in the public eye, part of the job is handling the hate. And I was in a unique place where I have a husband who’s very good with that stuff, where he basically was like, “You’re not allowed to read the comments.”

And I’m like, “It’s a car crash. I want to watch.” Because it’s a dopamine hit. It’s like emotional cutting, they call it. Once you learn that you don’t have to read it, is another world that you get to. Because I haven’t Googled myself in two years, and I’m not particularly like-

Tori Dunlap:

Oh, I Google myself every day.

Hannah Berner:

No, you can’t.

Tori Dunlap:

It’s like, “Did somebody write an article about me that we need re-share on social media?” It’s that.

Hannah Berner:

Yeah. But it’s almost like now that you have people to do that, you detach yourself. Because the second reading stuff about yourself or seeing stuff about yourself affects your creativity, they win. The second you’re like, “I don’t want to say that. I don’t want to do this,” because then you’re not being yourself, and then you’re a shell yourself, and then you hate yourself.

Tori Dunlap:

That’s been me for the past couple months.

Hannah Berner:

You’re right. You will see stuff accidentally.

Tori Dunlap:

That’s really helpful.

Hannah Berner:

I don’t mean to be a bitch, but I’m telling you-

Tori Dunlap:

Stop. No. Go back.

Hannah Berner:

You have to.

Tori Dunlap:

Don’t do that. Don’t do that shit. No, you’re not being a bitch. You are giving me really good advice. In what way is that bitchy? That’s not bitchy.

Hannah Berner:

It’s one thing I wish people had told me, that I didn’t have to read the comments.

Tori Dunlap:

Part of me, I was a social media manager, and also part of TikTok is responding to comments. So it’s part of that culture of like, “I don’t see the great things.” People literally every five minutes being like, “I paid off my student loans because of you.” We miss part of that too. I haven’t found the balance of it yet.

Hannah Berner:

But when it first happens and you’re not burned too much, you’re like, “This is fine. We’re playing in the water, we’re having fun.” it’s almost like you have to get really burned to be like, “I can’t go to that place.”

Tori Dunlap:

And I got really burned recently. Conversation for another time.

Hannah Berner:

It’s literally just a very pattern that everyone does. Question to you, back to finances.

Tori Dunlap:

Sure.

Hannah Berner:

Because you’ll say stuff about investing. You’ll be like, “If you invest this much money, duh, duh, duh.” Why aren’t people teaching us this in high school?

Tori Dunlap:

Oh, how much time do you have? Okay.

Hannah Berner:

Because I can retain information. I would like to know in high school that if you take your money and put it in this it will do this.

Tori Dunlap:

Okay. Let me talk about the pros and cons of that. So pros is there’s education happening in a way that I think would be really, really helpful. There are some states, I have a friend of mine who’s The Budgetnista, and she’s a fellow finance expert, and she got a law passed, I believe, in all of New Jersey that requires financial education, which is so fucking cool. So yes, learning education, openness, that’s great. The con though, one, where’s the funding going to come from? What curriculum’s going to be taught? Dave Ramsey curriculum better not be fucking taught in schools. It’s already taught. That’s the default curriculum.

Hannah Berner:

He’s your arch nemesis, right?

Tori Dunlap:

I hate him.

Hannah Berner:

Yeah, I know.

Tori Dunlap:

He’s a evangelical, judgmental Walmart Santa. And I do not like him. And there’s many problematic things about his work. But that is the default curriculum for many, many places. So it’s kind of like sex ed.

Hannah Berner:

You’re so right. It could be worse.

Tori Dunlap:

I went Catholic school. My sex ed was abstinence only education, and I’m not sure how helpful that actually was.

Hannah Berner:

It potentially is hurtful.

Tori Dunlap:

Right. So when we do think about personal finance, we call it the fallacy of financial literacy. People think like, “Oh, we just need to talk about money more in schools.” But the other con is if you put a precalculus test in front of me right now, I couldn’t do it. I have no idea. You learn what you need to learn in high school for the test, and then you dump it.

Hannah Berner:

You’re right.

Tori Dunlap:

You dump it. Now, there’s certain classes or certain teachers that are super powerful, and effective, and that you remember, but it’s really hard. I literally just spoke at a school, and that was the most… I’ve spoken in front of thousands of people. That was the most terrifying. It was 12, like 17-year olds. And that was the most nervous I’ve been in years.

Hannah Berner:

No. So scary. They’ll steal your glasses.

Tori Dunlap:

But literally, I’m like, “If I gave you a hundred dollars right now, what would you do with it?” And they’re all like, “Spend it.” I’m like, “Yeah, obviously. Obviously.” And that might be pretty accurate if you ask somebody in their twenties too. But you are not making a salary yet, you don’t fucking give a shit what a Roth IRA is. You don’t care. Now, I think 17-year olds do need to understand the student loan process and paying for college, because if we’re asking 17-year olds to sign on a dotted line… What is the John Mullaney bit?

“$120,000, and you have the audacity?” If we’re asking them to do that, they need to fully understand that decision. But it’s one of those things that is floated as the answer to general systemic oppression, right?

Hannah Berner:

Yes.

Tori Dunlap:

Racism, ableism, sexism, homophobia, trillion dollar student debt crisis.

Hannah Berner:

And it keeps people down.

Tori Dunlap:

Those are the things that are actually affecting people on a daily basis. Lack of minimum wage increases, housing at an all time high, lack of paid family leave, lack of fucking abortion access. Those are the things financially that affect people. And yes, financial education, I think, is part of that equation, but it’s way smaller than everybody thinks it is.

Hannah Berner:

I also think about just the concept, as a New Yorker, there’s the concept of the finance bro. And there’s just hoards of ’em.

Tori Dunlap:

Chad.

Hannah Berner:

There’s tons of them.

Tori Dunlap:

Chad. Patagonia.

Hannah Berner:

These guys get out of college.

Tori Dunlap:

Goldman.

Hannah Berner:

Their dad’s in finance, they want to be in finance. And I know there’s a lot of amazing women that are going into it too, but if you think about the amount of men who are finance bros and then are making, I guess, these decisions about money.

Tori Dunlap:

Can I talk about that for a second?

Hannah Berner:

Yeah.

Tori Dunlap:

Okay. You don’t need a finance Chad to save you. You do not need a finance Chad to save you. We have been fed this lie that investing’s difficult. Literally, I’m like, “Ugh!” You have been fed a lie that the stock market is complicated. It is not fucking complicated. Truly, it’s not. You’ve been fed this, one, to make sure that the Chads still have jobs, and to inflate their own ego. Because if they’re like, “Ah, don’t worry about stocks. It’s really complicated. I can handle it for you.”

Don’t give your money to a man to manage ever. And if you just need somebody to sit down with you and teach you, this is why I do the work that I do, is literally, I sit down with women and help them invest themselves because you can and should do it, because you’re paying somebody else an exorbitant amount of fees, again, typically a guy named Steve, or Chad, or Josh, and they are statistically underperforming in their investments compared to you doing it yourself. Women are better investors than men.

Hannah Berner:

Wow.

Tori Dunlap:

Statistically. But women don’t invest at the same rates men do. And when they think, “Oh my God, it’s so complicated. I need somebody else to do it,” the only people to turn to, again, statistically, are the 95% of financial professionals who are men. So I’m just like, “You can manage your money yourself. You don’t need a finance Chad to save you. You just need somebody to guide you, whether that’s me or somebody else.” But don’t give your hard-earned money to somebody to take over your money just because you’re like, “I don’t know what to do. It seems complicated.” That is a lie you’ve been fed.

Hannah Berner:

That is amazing.

Tori Dunlap:

Sorry, I’m off my soapbox. I’m just like crushing a can.

Hannah Berner:

No, because I am misses… I actually was good at math and stuff. I was good at math, but I just didn’t care about learning about it. It’s the same thing, like why some funny women are like, “But I don’t care again to stand up and have to deal with all that bullshit.”

Tori Dunlap:

Right. Well, and the other thing is people think, “Oh, if I’m not good with math, I’m not good with money.” And that’s a whole other thing about how we raise girls. We tell them, “You’re good with English, you’re good with writing, you’re not good at math.” And I will also say, I’m a theater major, guys. I studied theater in college.

Hannah Berner:

Yeah. That’s amazing.

Tori Dunlap:

And I’m a finance expert. Numbers aren’t my thing, really, either. It’s not about numbers when it comes to money, it’s about your life. That sounds so woo-woo. But think about any goal you want to achieve. You have to picture how your life is different once you’ve achieved that goal. It’s not about numbers in a spreadsheet. It’s about what does it feel like to wake up every morning and know that you don’t owe anybody any money? What does it feel like to know that 65 year old Grandma you is drinking Sauv Blanc with lunch and flirting with her younger Pilates instructor named Luca because she has the money to do that?

That’s my real life retirement plan. That is the feeling I want for every fucking woman. What is the feeling of waking up in the morning and being like, “I get to choose what I do today,” or, “If I want to leave this relationship, I can”? That is the feeling I want, and that’s what money can buy you. And it’s not about math, it’s about your emotions. It’s about how you feel. It’s about how you view money, how you view people with money, how you view the pursuit of money. That is what it’s about. It’s not about how good you are at Excel.

Hannah Berner:

One final question.

Tori Dunlap:

Did I look at any of my questions for you? I memorized some of them when I talked to you.

Hannah Berner:

Wait, can I ask you one more thing?

Tori Dunlap:

Yes. Talk to me.

Hannah Berner:

Let’s say we’ve made some money, what is the first thing you do with it?

Tori Dunlap:

Great question. Have a whole chapter in my book about this. First thing, emergency fund, three months of living expenses in a high yield savings account. Tattoo HYSA on my forehead. I talk about them so much. They’re everyday savings accounts, except they’re going to offer you more in interest. We have the one we recommend on our website, but literally it’s just making sure that you have money in the bank should something happen. The reason we do that first before paying off any debt is because, again, we want something in the bank, we don’t want to go into debt trying to pay for an emergency, and we want the ability to say fuck off if we don’t want a situation anymore.

There’s so much power and also stability in knowing my head hits the pillow, something happens tomorrow, I’m fine. At least for a period of time. So emergency funds, number one priority. Second priority is starting to pay off credit card debt because it’s really expensive. It’s over 15% in interest, typically somewhere in the twenties. And again, it doesn’t sound like a lot until you’re in it and you’re like, “Holy shit.” I have a lot of resources around paying off debt. We have a whole chapter in paying off debt in the book too. But the biggest thing is we know from statistics that women get into debt more frequently because they do not understand how a loan works. And that’s not because they’re stupid, but because nobody sat down and explained it to them. So debt, very simply put, there’s principle and interest. Principle is the original amount of money you took out.

So if you put $10,000 on a credit card, that is the principle. The interest is like the deal with Ursula. What are you getting? What are you having to pay in exchange for that? And then the interest compounds. So when you don’t pay off your full balance of student loans or whatever, your interest typically compounds, which that’s why debt feels like you’re drownin
g. Because every time you try to get ahead, it’s like, “Oh, I have to keep paying interest, and paying interest, and paying interest.” So credit cards. Then number three, you did your emergency fund, you got your credit card debt paid off, you’re going to start investing for retirement. You’re going to start opening something like a Roth IRA, which is an individual retirement account, or working with your 401k if you’re a corporate girly. And balancing paying off your lower interest debt.

Things like your student loans, your car loan, your mortgage, things like that. And then while you’re doing that, start saving for what I call the big life stuff. So getting married, buying a house, getting a new car, starting a business, retiring early. And that’s kind of the order of operations. So we start with emergency funds in a high yield savings account.

Hannah Berner:

Wow. The information you just dropped was quality, premium, topnotch.

Tori Dunlap:

I appreciate it.

Hannah Berner:

I love that.

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah. That is the one. I say this all the time, personal finance is personal. Everybody has a different personal finance experience. Everybody’s money is different. Everybody’s goals are different. However, that order of operations is the order of operations for anybody listening, because it has to be done in that order. And there’s so many people who are so kind, and they messaging me, and they’re like, “But I have a $120,000 of student loans.” And I’m like, “I get it. It feels overwhelming, but I need you to have an emergency fund first for many, many reasons.”

I need you to get the quicker win of like, “Cool. I have money in the bank, should something happen.” And then that feeling of momentum will just snowball, and you’ll just keep going.

Hannah Berner:

Wow. Wow. That’s fucking incredible.

Tori Dunlap:

Hey, thanks. I love what I do.

Hannah Berner:

Wait, can I ask you one more question?

Tori Dunlap:

Yes, yes, yes.

Hannah Berner:

What do you think about the abundance theory with money? The more you spend, the more you can make? The kind of woo-woo concept.

Tori Dunlap:

I am more woo-woo than I used to be. I worked with an energy coach a couple years ago for the first time.

Hannah Berner:

I love that.

Tori Dunlap:

And I was like, “This is good for me.” Yeah. I was like, “This is good for me, because I feel weird about it.”

Hannah Berner:

I hear a lot of things with money where they talk about money manifestation, and abundance theory, and that kind of shit.

Tori Dunlap:

There was a post that I saw, I will not name the publication, but I called them out so hard. They had one of these money experts who was not myself and others, and was an actual money expert. They were like, “Yeah, bring abundance into your life.” And literally, the advice they gave was like, “Carry $200 of cash with you at all times for normal purchases.” And they’re like, “And to attract abundance, keep $300 in a separate pocket.” And I was like, “Okay-“

Hannah Berner:

I will lose that immediately.

Tori Dunlap:

Or you’ll get mugged. You’re telling women walk around with-

Hannah Berner:

Also, who has cash on them?

Tori Dunlap:

I literally never carry cash. $500. And $300 you’re never going to touch. So the privilege of that, of just, you can have $300. Two, it’s stupid. Put that in a savings account and earn money on it or invest it or do something. And three, you’re either going to lose it or you’re going to get your purse taken.

Hannah Berner:

That makes no fucking sense.

Tori Dunlap:

No, you’re going to have a knife to your throat. That’s just not smart.

Hannah Berner:

There’s a line of crossing woo-woo too much in terms of the money stuff.

Tori Dunlap:

I think so. And also, this might be controversial, I think that is the kind of finance that we’re okay with women talking about.

Hannah Berner:

Oh, yeah. No, I see that for sure.

Tori Dunlap:

We’re okay with money and man… Oh, it’s just… Yeah. I do believe in abundance versus scarcity a hundred percent.

Hannah Berner:

Money, masturbation, manifestation. I want to be a millionaire!

Tori Dunlap:

You’re just jacking off the entire time. No, but I think that that is what we are socially comfortable, both as women and viewing other women doing. Doing the chants and the mantras. And if that works for you, great. But if it is not coupled with actual saving, and investing, and goal setting, it doesn’t fucking matter.

Hannah Berner:

And I also think people like Rihanna, being a billionaire, we need to see that in the public, in the media. Because growing up, when you only see old white men having money, that does something to your brain. So it’s having more women like you being like, “Yeah, I have money, and this is how I got it. And let’s talk about it.”

Tori Dunlap:

Again, if you take anything away from my work, and this is why I love talking to folks like you from all walks of life. My podcast is called Financial Feminist. And the amount of times I’ve pitched people to be on the show and they’re like, “Well, I’m not finance experts.” And I’m like, “No, everything is about money.” You want to talk
about comedy? It’s about money. It’s about how much are you making compared to everybody else? How do I make a living out of this? How do I navigate? And really, it’s feminist. Money is inherently feminist if we look at it from that lens.

You want money? Money gets you, again, everything. So if you are not embracing it as a tool, that’s all it is. It’s a tool. It’s a tool for you to build a life that you want. It shouldn’t be the reason you can’t have things. It should be the reason you pursue it instead. And if money is controlling you, rather than you controlling it, we need to flip that relationship. And we need to have so many conversations, and we need to be as transparent as we can, especially if you’re a member of a marginalized group. Because representation matters. But truly, it’s also about, I want to share hard numbers so that you can walk in and also get paid what you’re worth because I paved the way for you, or I was shepherding you into that conversation.

Hannah Berner:

Yes. And if you’re a business owner, how dare you pay a man a certain number, and have a woman doing the same job, and because she didn’t ask for it, pay her…

Tori Dunlap:

Punish her.

Hannah Berner:

I couldn’t sleep at night. Or a black person or a disabled person.

Tori Dunlap:

Right.

Hannah Berner:

It grinds my gears. It’s from all angles, people need to get it together.

Tori Dunlap:

And we also need to support policies that-

Hannah Berner:

Protect people.

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah. I say this in my book, 20% of the personal finance equation is your own choices. That’s all that gets talked about. If you’re not rich, you’re not working hard enough. And it’s like, no, that’s not it.

Hannah Berner:

No.

Tori Dunlap:

Yes. Get your budgeting together. Get your Roth IRA together, control the things you can control, and then vote, and protest, and support legislation that has much more of the 80% that’s going on with your money versus the 20% you can control.

Hannah Berner:

I have one final question. For people who are, I use in quotes, “cheap”, “frugal.”

Tori Dunlap:

I’m a little, yeah.

Hannah Berner:

Because I’m a little cheap and frugal. My friend once told me, she was like, “If you hold too tight to money, it won’t expand. You have to be free with it.” That’s another woo-woo thing that I was talking to my friend about.

Tori Dunlap:

That one, I think, has more weight.

Hannah Berner:

Do you have any advice for cheap people?

Tori Dunlap:

Well, there’s a difference, right? There’s the, “I’m living paycheck to paycheck,” but you still have a Netflix account. There’s some people who are like, “Oh, I’m living paycheck to paycheck.” And that’s just because either they’re so good with their money that they’ve put everything in savings. There’s some people who say, “I’m living paycheck to paycheck,” but it’s because all the money goes in savings or because they’re spending money on things that they don’t like. And so they’re like, “I’m living paycheck to paycheck.”

You can fix that. And then there’s the people who are honest to God living paycheck to paycheck, where I actually don’t have an answer for you. That sucks. But that’s where the systemic change has to happen. My default is cheap and frugal. And I actually just recorded an episode on my show about all of the times I regret that because-

Hannah Berner:

Oh, I love that.

Tori Dunlap:

Literally, this happened last month. I was like flying, I did an event in Chicago. I spoke at a conference, and then we had a week off. We do quarterly weeks off at my company. And I was like, “Oh, I’ll go to Miami.” I’d never been in Miami. And I had booked this Airbnb that was clean, and fine, and whatever. You could walk to the beach, but it was 20 minutes away. Which fine, but I got there and that was not the experience I wanted.

This was my week off after a bunch of book promotion.

Hannah Berner:

And for maybe two hundred dollars more a month, you could have had such a better experience.

Tori Dunlap:

That. I could see the beach from this side, but if I turned this way, fucking Walmart down below. And this was not the vibe I wanted. It wasn’t Four Season’s or Airbnb.

Hannah Berner:

I’ve had that experience with hotels for sure. But they can be tricky because from the photos you’re like, “This is perfect.” Sometimes I say-

Tori Dunlap:

Truly it was my fault.

Hannah Berner:

You know what you’re paying for.

Tori Dunlap:

It wasn’t even the Airbnb, but it was bad. It was like I cheaped out and got there, and I had this expectation of what my experience was going to be, and then I was so angry at myself.

Hannah Berner:

I think it’s prioritizing what actually will fulfill you and that you want to invest in versus I don’t need… And people are very different. Some people are like, “I need to fly first class to enjoy.”

Tori Dunlap:

But again, I talk about this too, it’s like, “You don’t have to stop spending money, but I need you to stop spending money on shit you don’t care about so you can spend money on the you do.” But in terms of cheap or frugal, I would say that some of that is actually really helpful. It’s part of why maybe you can save and you feel financially stable, but there is an element of trauma with that sometimes.

Hannah Berner:

Or self-hate.

Tori Dunlap:

Right. We see this a lot with first-gen or women of color, it’s like, “I don’t know when my next paycheck’s coming, so I’m going to save everything and I’m going to deprive myself of everything joyful.” And that isn’t it.

Hannah Berner:

Yeah.

Tori Dunlap:

We have to, again, find, “How do I save for future me?” How do I save for my goals and also still travel, and still go out to eat, and still have what we want now?

So I would say some frugality, I think, is really good, but there was this whole movement, it’s called the FIRE movement, and it’s been commandeered now by women and people of color, which is great. But the early days of FIRE were these tech bros making $150,000, but they would be like, “I don’t use toilet paper, and that’s how I save money.”

Hannah Berner:

Oh, wait, I think I’ve heard of this.

Tori Dunlap:

And they’re like, “I bike to work.” And I’m like, “Cool. You want me to bike at 5:00 PM where it gets dark?”

Hannah Berner:

I love those memes too, that are like, “I stopped buying chai lattes and now I own a mansion.”

Tori Dunlap:

A house. Right. Right. And, again, we could talk about it for hours, but that’s another narrative we’re fed, again, the frivolous spending. It’s the lattes. And I’m like, “I’m sorry, I live in Seattle. You live in New York. Good luck buying anything.”

Hannah Berner:

Also, if your latte brings you joy in the morning, you drink that fucking latte.

Tori Dunlap:

Drink the fucking latte. Life is so goddamn hard. If that is the thing that keeps you going, great. Also, it’s six dollars.

Hannah Berner:

Yeah.

Tori Dunlap:

If we want to do the math 6 times 365, that is not a down payment on a house in any major US city.

Hannah Berner:

No.

Tori Dunlap:

Not even fucking close. Just buy your latte.

Hannah Berner:

Tori, thank you so much for coming on Berning in Hell. And thank you for having me on Financial Feminist.

Tori Dunlap:

Thank you.

Hannah Berner:

I’m sorry that I spent the whole time asking you questions.

Tori Dunlap:

No, it’s great.

Hannah Berner:

We’ll do a collab in the future.

Tori Dunlap:

I hope my audience was okay.

Yes. I hope people are okay with just what ended up being. I want ask you questions. I don’t want you to feel like I’m not asking about your life.

Hannah Berner:

No, I’m going to go on your pod in the future.

Tori Dunlap:

Okay, great.

Hannah Berner:

I will.

Tori Dunlap:

Great.

Hannah Berner:

And I’ll talk at you.

Tori Dunlap:

Okay, great. I love that.

Hannah Berner:

Force you to hear my stories. But no, you’re just so fascinating, and amazing to talk to you.

Tori Dunlap:

Thank you. You too.

Hannah Berner:

Where can people follow you? Buy your book? See you?

Tori Dunlap:

Financial Feminist is the podcast and the book. It’s a New York Times bestseller.

Hannah Berner:

Congrats.

Tori Dunlap:

Which I love saying. I will never stop saying it.

Hannah Berner:

No, that is so fucking huge.

Tori Dunlap:

I worked so fucking hard. Available wherever books are sold. And then I’m at Her First $100K on all the socials. And I’ll have you plug away.

Hannah Berner:

Her First $100K. Oh, yes. I have a podcast called Berning Hell. Giggly Squad, it’s more pop culture. Come to my standup shows, hannahberner.com. And check me out on TikTok.

Tori Dunlap:

Can’t wait for you to come to Seattle. I’m so excited.

Hannah Berner:

I’m coming to Seattle. Check me out on TikTok and Instagrams at Hannah Berner.

Tori Dunlap:

Amazing.

Hannah Berner:

Thank you.

Tori Dunlap:

Thank you. Thank you.

Hannah Berner:

Bye.

Tori Dunlap:

Bye.

Hannah Berner:

Yay.

Tori Dunlap:

Thank you again to Hannah for joining us and also for having me on your show. Again, we will have you back. I can’t wait to ask you more questions. And she’s going on tour, and we talked about her coming to Seattle, and I’m excited to hopefully see her if I’m in town. I want to plug Berning In Hell because this episode’s also getting released over there. Please go listen to Hannah’s show Berning in Hell, and go support her work by maybe seeing her on tour, subscribing and following her, and doing all of that stuff. Thank you as always for being here. Thank you for showing up, for supporting our show, for subscribing and reviewing the episode. For August, we got a bunch of great episodes lined up. We are talking about things like sex works, sobriety, work-life balance.

Make sure you subscribe so you don’t miss a thing. We are giving you the hits. We’re playing the hits through the end of the summer. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being Financial Feminists, and I hope you have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon.

Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Kahlil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda Leffew, Masha Bachmetyeva, Kailyn Sprinkle, Sumaya Mulla-Carillo, and Harvey Carlson. Researched by Ariel Johnson. Audio engineering by Austin Fields. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton. Photography by Sarah Wolfe. And theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit Financialfeministpodcast.com.