If you’ve ever thought, “I know what I’m supposed to be doing with my money, so why can’t I just do it?”
this episode is going to change everything.
Today I’m talking to Dr. Nick, a licensed neuropsychologist and executive cognition specialist, to unpack the brain science behind why smart, capable women still make emotional financial decisions. We’re going into the dopamine deficit that makes long-term financial goals feel impossible to start, the norepinephrine surge that only kicks in when things become an emergency, and why “I’m bad with money” is a story your brain makes up — not a fact about who you are. Dr. Nick breaks down how emotional dysregulation silently drives impulse spending, financial avoidance, and the boom-bust cycle so many of us know too well, and more importantly, how to build systems, practice self-compassion, and rewire your brain’s relationship with money, one small win at a time.
Key takeaways:
Your brain is wired to avoid financial planning
The reason so many women know exactly what they should be doing with their money but still can’t bring themselves to do it comes down to dopamine. Our brains are built around the reward system, and financial planning rarely delivers an immediate payoff. Because the reward feels distant, the brain deprioritizes it, not out of laziness, but out of pure neuroscience. Dr. Nick explains that breaking big goals into smaller, achievable steps is what actually generates dopamine hits along the way, making it possible to build momentum. The key to stopping emotional financial decisions isn’t more discipline. It’s restructuring your goals so your brain can actually get on board with them.
Emotional emergencies are what finally get us to act, and that’s by design
When people reach full-blown financial crisis, there’s a neurological reason for that. Norepinephrine, the brain chemical responsible for urgency and action, doesn’t kick in until something genuinely feels like a fire. For people with ADHD especially, this is amplified: the brain is literally wired to address only what’s immediately in front of it. The antidote isn’t more motivation. It’s self-awareness and systems. Dr. Nick encourages looking at your own past patterns and asking: what traps do I consistently fall into, and what can I put in place now so my future self doesn’t have to white-knuckle through it?
The “I’m bad with money” story is a shame cycle, and your brain believes every word of it
Telling yourself you’re bad with money isn’t just inaccurate. It’s neurologically harmful. When we repeat that narrative, the amygdala (the part of the brain that stores emotional memories) encodes it, so every time we face a financial decision, the brain fires back: remember last time? This triggers a shame cycle that makes avoidance feel rational and effort feel pointless. Dr. Nick reframes it clearly: you’re not bad with money, you just haven’t learned the rules yet, and that’s a completely solvable problem. Changing the story you tell yourself is one of the most direct ways to stop making emotional financial decisions, because your brain will start building new emotional memories to pull from.
Your emotional intensity level at the moment of a financial decision matters more than you think
Dr. Nick’s intensity gauge rates your emotional state on a scale of 1 to 10. At a 7 or above, you should not be making financial decisions. Full stop. That’s where impulsivity lives: the rage quit, the big impulsive purchase, the financial choice you’ll be untangling for months. At a 4 to 6, problem-solving is possible, ideally with a trusted person to talk it through. At a 1 to 3, it’s worth asking whether the situation even deserves your energy. Applying this gauge before any significant financial decision is one of the simplest, most concrete steps you can take to interrupt the cycle of emotional financial decision-making.
Systems aren’t about perfection
Dr. Nick is clear: your brain doesn’t love systems. It protects you. And if thinking about building a system feels stressful, the brain will avoid it. But systems aren’t built for your best days. They’re built for your worst ones. When life gets chaotic, the only thing standing between you and your old financial patterns is the system you built when things were calm. Dr. Nick recommends starting with one small, specific system, like doing all your financial tasks on the third of the month regardless of due dates, and scheduling it like an appointment you cannot miss. Cognitive offloading is the goal: one less thing your brain has to hold.
Self-compassion isn’t soft. It’s the actual strategy
In a culture that glorifies willpower, self-compassion gets dismissed as weak or indulgent. But Dr. Nick makes a compelling, neuroscience-backed case: willpower is only available when you’re well-rested, well-fed, financially stable, and low-stress, which is almost never. Shame, on the other hand, shrinks the hippocampus and erodes your ability to think clearly. Self-compassion, which Dr. Nick reframes as self-centeredness rather than selfishness, is what actually enables you to say no to others, protect your financial boundaries, and show up consistently for yourself. It’s not about letting yourself off the hook. It’s about removing the internal barriers that are keeping you stuck.
Notable quotes
“If you don’t trust yourself, borrow someone else’s trust.”
“The whole goal of regulating emotions is that you are managing your emotions, so your emotions are not managing you.”
“If you do not know how to manage money…then — air quotes — yes, you will be bad at it. But I want people to know that it’s not that they’re bad at it, it’s that you don’t know yet how to manage it. Anybody can manage it. You just need to know the rules.”
Episode at-a-glance
00:00 Intro
00:54 How Emotional Decisions Shape Your Finances
01:47 Why Knowing Isn’t Enough: The Brain Science
02:56 The Role of Dopamine in Financial Decisions
05:11 How to Create Urgency Before a Crisis
07:52 “I’m Just Bad With Money” — Debunked
10:15 What Is Emotional Regulation (And Why It Matters)
14:52 The Intensity Gauge: Rating Your Emotions
15:02 Managing the “Always at an 8” vs. Numb Baseline
17:29 Making Financial Decisions at a 5, 6, or 7
19:19 Replacing Mindless Spending With Systems
29:54 Willpower Is a Myth — Here’s What Actually Works
32:11 The Case for Self-Compassion Over Willpower
35:43 The Boom-Bust Cycle of Financial Motivation
39:28 How Emotional Regulation Changes With Age
42:24 Preparing for Life’s Transitions
49:00 Rebuilding Trust With Yourself and Your Money
Thanks to Rocket Money for sponsoring this episode!
Dr. Nick’s Links:
Website: https://www.drnicolemurray.com/
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Meet Dr. Nick (Nicole Murray)
Dr. Murray is a licensed neuropsychologist and executive cognition specialist who works with high-performing professionals navigating focus, productivity, and cognitive overload. She is the founder of Proflection, a cognitive health practice that delivers high-end neuropsychological assessments and performance optimization for leaders, entrepreneurs, and knowledge workers.
Her work sits at the intersection of neuroscience, psychology, and decision-making, with a particular focus on ADHD, executive functioning, and the hidden cognitive costs of modern work. Dr. Murray is known for translating complex brain science into practical, strategic insights—without dumbing it down.
She has trained clinicians, advised organizations, and spoken to high-level audiences on attention, productivity, and cognitive resilience.
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap:
If you’ve ever thought, “I know what I’m supposed to be doing with my money, so why can’t I just bring myself to do it,” then this episode is for you. Today we’re unpacking the brain science behind financial avoidance, impulse spending, burnout, and why motivation disappears when goals feel too far away. Plus, how to build systems that actually work when willpower doesn’t. Today’s guest is Dr. Nick, who is a licensed neuropsychologist and executive cognition specialist. Her work sits at the intersection of neuroscience, psychology, and decision making with a particular focus on ADHD, executive functioning, and the hidden cognitive costs of modern work. So if you’ve ever just thought, “I need more willpower or I know what I need to do, but I can’t just do it,” today’s episode is for you. Let’s get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors.
So Dr. Nick, if people listen to this episode and take all of your work and all of your advice seriously, how can their life start to change?
Dr. Nick:
One of the main things I would say that people start to change if they take what I say seriously is they start to really think about more intentionally how they make financial decisions. Oftentimes when we’re thinking about emotional regulation and we’re thinking about making financial decisions, there are a lot of emotions involved from avoidance all the way to anxiety. And so if you know how to handle that and you know how to regulate that, you actually start to make smarter financial decisions.
Tori Dunlap:
We hear from so many women who are smart, capable, they’re starting to become financially literate, yet they feel all of the emotions you just expressed. Anxious, avoidant, stuck with money. From a brain science perspective, why does knowing what to do not translate into actually doing it?
Dr. Nick:
In the age of trending ADHD where 86% of the population think they have it, one of the main reasons why is because there’s such a hard time in doing what you’re supposed to do. Even though we logically know this is what we need to do, getting to that step, taking that initiation step, it’s a lot more difficult. And the reason why is because the brain just doesn’t want to. When we think about dopamine, the dopamine that we have and we create in our brain is all based on the reward system. And so if people are thinking about finances and making their financial future secure, that is never really immediate. And because it’s not immediate, it makes it less of a lucrative step to take. People don’t want to do it, even though they know it’s good for them. And so I really believe that when people kind of break down what they want their goals to be, they’re more likely to take those smaller steps, get those smaller wins, and that’s what actually leads them towards making better financial decisions.
Tori Dunlap:
So you mentioned dopamine. What is the role dopamine plays in our decision making? But then if we want to be even more focused, what role does dopamine play in our financial decision making?
Dr. Nick:
Okay. So dopamine is completely related to our reward system. So if we have a lot of dopamine, of course you don’t want too much of anything, but when we have enough dopamine, we feel satisfied and we feel rewarded. Now, kind of like what I mentioned before, if we lack dopamine, we also lack motivation. We lack not necessarily ambition because we may have the ambition, but the motivation to get there just isn’t there. So when we’re talking about making financial decisions, again, if we’re playing a long-term game, getting there is going to be much more difficult if you don’t have enough dopamine.
Tori Dunlap:
So you were mentioning this idea, and I see it because we talk with millions of women who are trying to be better with money of, “Oh, I know this is important, but that’s a next week thing, or that’s a next month thing.” Because it’s not immediate, it gets pushed to the wayside or it just gets delayed. So when we think about the messages I get all the time, which is a financial emergency that often causes people to go into taking action mode, what is happening in our brains that’s different between, “Oh, I know I should do this,” versus, “Oh shit, the time is here.”
Dr. Nick:
Yeah. So now we’re talking about norepinephrine. That is basically the oomph to do something. Listen, there could be a variety of reasons why that’s happening. A big part is stress, anxiety, how much someone has on their plate. Another reason is, again, ADHD, we lack norepinephrine when we have ADHD. So what that essentially means is that we’re literally just putting out the fires that are in front of our face. And so when people are coming to you and saying, “I have a financial emergency.” It’s because it’s an emergency. It was an emergency last week. And so that norepinephrine never kicked in, but it’s kicking in now. And so that would be the biggest difference, I would say.
Tori Dunlap:
So how do we get that urgency on a Tuesday? How do we get that level of, “Okay, I got to take this shit seriously,” when my hair isn’t on fire?
Dr. Nick:
Right. You know what? It takes so much self-awareness. And I know it seems like such a simple intervention like, “Oh, I just need to be more self-aware.” But you really do need to take stock in your past decisions because past decisions predict future behavior. And so if you know that you’re prone to paying off that credit card on the day of instead of the week before and you know you’re going on vacation, what are you going to do to circumvent that trap so you don’t get that late fee if you pay it a day late? And so really observing your own patterns and really making the choices. When I talk about emotional regulation, when I treat women with emotional regulation, one of the first things that we’re establishing is systems, because if you don’t have systems, everything is chaos. You’re doing a lot, but nothing’s really getting done.
And there’s always going to be chaos at some point in your life. Nothing happens perfectly in sync as much as we’d like it to be. And so when your life does become a little bit more chaotic, a little bit more stressful and things are not going according to plan, the only thing you have left to fall back on are your systems.
Tori Dunlap:
I love that you said that. I talk about systems a lot in the show. They’ve helped me personally so much. I think that a good chunk of the reason our business has had success, I’ve been successful financially is because those systems exist. And what I love about systems is that they’re the same no matter what’s going on. If the economy’s great, if I’m making bunches of money, the system’s the same as if the economy’s bad and I’m not making as much money. Why does our brain love systems? And if our brain is not at the point where we’re able to create those systems, how do we get there?
Dr. Nick:
Care. So that’s the main thing.
Tori Dunlap:
No, that’s a good point. That’s a good point.
Dr. Nick:
And that’s the thing, right? Is like your mind, you might have goals and you have ambitions and what you were saying about you know what to do. The only purpose of your brain is to protect you. Okay? And so if thinking about systems stresses you out, the brain’s going to be like, “No, thanks. Let’s think about something else.” And that’s why we avoid it. And so this is why it’s important that we kind of have to take the action before we kind of come around mindfully because it is the most important.
Tori Dunlap:
When we think about someone who says, “I’m just bad with money.” We hear that all the time like, “Oh, I’m just bad with money.” What is actually happening in their nervous system?
Dr. Nick:
That’s a really loaded question. People have a lot of narratives that they do tell themselves that are just not true, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah.
Dr. Nick:
When you say that, it almost reminds me of when people say, “Oh, well, I’m just bad at math. I’m not good at school.” And a lot of these people, if I evaluated them, they’re actually very smart. It’s just that they never really learned how to study or how to do the homework. And so it’s kind of the same thing is that if you do not know how to manage money and how to manage those systems, then air quotes, yes, you will be bad at it, but I want people to know that it’s not that they’re bad at it. It’s that you don’t know yet how to manage it. Anybody can manage it. You just need to know the rules.
Tori Dunlap:
We say the same thing. We say that it’s not a DNA trait you were born with. It is a skill that you learn and just, “Oh, I’m bad at, I don’t know, Portuguese. I haven’t taken the time to learn how to speak Portuguese.” It’s the same thing. And it’s also the identity of I’m bad with money, not I’m learning or I don’t know a lot about money. The kind of demonization of ourselves, similar to the way our brains often go, “I failed or I’m a failure,” as opposed to just, “This just happened. I failed.” And I think that identity that like, “Oh, this is a personal failing,” is so linked with money. We’ve seen it time and time again when we talk to women.
Dr. Nick:
Absolutely. And that is something that everyone really needs to kind of be aware of are what are you telling yourself? Because also your brain believes you when you say, “I’m not good at this and I failed this.” It does start this shame cycle. And then when you have this shame cycle like, “Well, I’m not good at this, so then why would I try? And then I’m just going to self-disappoint.” And then that cycle then continues. And so it’s so important to recognize, okay, is this something that I’m bad at? What’s that evidence? Who said that you were bad at that? Where did that come from? And you saying that to yourself, who is that serving? And so what is it that you need to know to get good at money is what I would say as kind of a comeback to someone that is battling that constant thought in their mind.
Tori Dunlap:
You mentioned emotional regulation. What is that and how can emotional dysregulation show up in our real world money behaviors?
Dr. Nick:
It’s so funny because I use that word all the time and so many people are like, “What are you talking about?”
Tori Dunlap:
I know there’s listeners out there who are like, “How do I actually regulate my emotions? Those are outside of my control.”
Dr. Nick:
Right. Right.
Tori Dunlap:
Talk to me about what that actually looks like in practice.
Dr. Nick:
Yes. So here’s the thing with emotions, emotions, it comes with a physiological response, it comes with thoughts, it comes with triggers, it comes with all of the things, right? Now, to regulate them, there has to be some kind of self-awareness and some oversight into what’s going on. The whole goal of regulating emotions is that you are managing your emotions, so your emotions are not managing you. I share this story of the time when I lived in New York and I was eight months pregnant and if any of you live in New York, you know what that subway system’s like at 7:30 in the morning. And so I was right at the doors, ready to get on, get a seat, and I was body checked. And immediately my mind was like, “Who body checks an eight-month old or an eight-month pregnant person to get on the train?” And I was livid. I could feel the heat, I could feel the emotions, the anger, the irritability.
And of course my behavior was, “I’m going to go and I’m going to give this person a piece of my mind.” Now when I look down and around, it was actually this 8-year-old kid that body checked me. Was I still irritated? Absolutely. But not as irritated as I was when I thought it was like a 49-year-old man, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Totally.
Dr. Nick:
And so it’s really just the change of perspective. When you can kind of change your perspective and thinking about things in a different way, that is the first step to regulating your emotions. A lot of times when people have trouble regulating their emotions, which means they shut down, they lash out, they cry at work when they don’t want to cry at work, when their emotions overcome them. It’s because there’s one pronounced thought that’s just fueling the emotion. And so when we think about emotional regulation, it’s like, what else? What else can we be thinking about this? How else can we be thinking about this? And when we have multiple options to think about, it doesn’t put so much strain and so much stress on that one emotion. And then we can start to think about things differently and make better choices.
Tori Dunlap:
I love what you just said about the one thought because when we are emotionally flooded, it is the one thought. Good luck thinking or considering anything else. If you are angry, if you are deeply sad, especially if you have this immediate response to something that just happened, like getting body checked on the subway or like, “Oh, my partner said something crazy to me just now and I’m so pissed off.” Good luck having a thought that isn’t about that.
What do we have to tell ourselves or do to, in the heat of the moment, regulate our nervous systems?
Dr. Nick:
Honestly, the first and main thing that we need to do is talk to ourselves, recognize what the emotion is because sometimes we don’t even know. We’re just in so much shock. We’re just so irritable. We just start acting without even recognizing how intense we are acting or how intense we’re feeling rather.
And so sometimes I’ll say between 1 and 10, how are we feeling? What did this situation cause you? Let’s say 7 out of 10, if you’re at a 7, level 7 and up, you need to leave. You need to get out of there, go to the bathroom, go for a walk, because no talking is going to help with this. Now, if you’re between, I would say, a 4 and a 6, all right, we need to just take a breath and then we need to problem solve and we can work this out. But we need to also recognize that if we get to a 7, we need to really disengage because nothing productive, right?
That term seeing red, is that 7 and up. 4 to 6 is that problem solving. And then that 1 to 3, then it’s kind of, is this really worth my time? Is this going to impact me in five years from now? Because if it’s not, is this worth getting up to a 4 and up? Let’s release it. That is one of my favorite tools is doing the gauge, the intensity gauge, and then deciding what behavior you’re going to take from there.
Tori Dunlap:
I know that there’s at least one person, probably many people out there who heard that and found it valuable and then immediately thought to themselves, “I’m either at an 8 at all times or I am so numb that I feel nothing anymore.” Talk to me about those two people, the my baseline’s an 8 and my baselines and negative 2.
Dr. Nick:
So let’s talk about the all 8 folks. The all 8 folks, I do think that there’s some intensity that’s missing, right? We’ve heard people say, “Man, I go to 0 to 50 in two seconds.” There’s some things that are happening there, right? And so earlier I mentioned self-awareness is key and there’s things that we’re not picking up on that are leading us to an 8 at all times. It’s the folks that they work all day, they have a stress all day, their boss is on them, they come home, it’s like, “What’s for dinner? Who are you talking to? Whatever!” And then we snap and it was like, “Oh, I was always miserable.” But we’ll know you’re stressed, you’re overstimulated, you’re also hungry, you don’t want to make decisions right now, and now that’s what’s happening.
Now, if we released one of those 4 or 3, would you have still been at an 8? And the answer’s probably no. And so when people are at a baseline of 8, we would probably work on what it feels like to have a baseline at 3 and 4. We need to know what that feels like. Now for my folks that are constantly at 2, this kind of reminds me of my burnout folks when they reach the ultimate burnout and they’re just like-
Tori Dunlap:
Zombies.
Dr. Nick:
… “I give zero Fs.” I’m just not… It’s kind of like now we have to be kind of aware of those mini wins. And believe you me, a lot of people I see like, “Oh my goodness, I don’t want to talk about wins. Wins are so cheesy.” But you need them. We had talked about dopamine, right? You need the wins in order to kind of get out of that apathy and all of that, right?
And of course, this is talking about folks that are generally within the range of the spectrum of emotions, not clinical depression, because that is a little bit different and we treat that a little bit differently. But for the remainder of folks, this is what we would do is really figure out, okay, is there anything that would bring you joy. And let’s focus in on that and let’s make sure that we’re prioritizing that because otherwise it just stays the same.
Tori Dunlap:
I love this idea, the scale, and I want to stay on it for a second. If you are feeling an emotion that’s let’s say 5 plus, so 5, 6, 7, up. What then happens when you are feeling a 5, 6, 7 plus emotion, and then you’re going to make a financial decision? What’s happening in that moment?
Dr. Nick:
Well, let’s see here. If you’re at a 7 and up, I would not make any financial decision. I would definitely sleep on it. This is where impulsivity comes from, stressed financial decisions. If you’re at a 5, 6, you know what? I also think talking it over with someone, especially if we have some folks who are like, “No, I want to make this decision right now.” I would use a lifeline and call someone and talk it over. Again, problem solving is that 5, 6 level, and it’s helpful to bounce something off of someone else to make sure that you’re on track to making the right financial decision.
Tori Dunlap:
And the more we’re talking, the more I have to, again, I was going to say beg listeners, but I kind of feel that way. I have to remind everybody, we have so many conversations on this show about the emotions of money. And it’s because everything Dr. Nick is saying is so true when we’re about to make a financial decision. If we are at a 7 plus, that’s probably not a smart decision because we are not regulating our own emotions. If we are making impulsive decisions, we’re making a huge purchase, we are quitting our jobs, rage quitting out of nowhere with no planning. These are the kind of things that have the possibility of at most blowing up your life, but at the very least making you go, “I regret that,” or sending you into the shame spiral of money.
So let’s say that somebody has done, let’s not say it’s the blow up their life decision. Let’s say it’s a pattern of like mindless spending. If they’re listening to this episode, they’re listening to you and they’re going, “Yep, that’s me. I am making purchases or doing financial decision making in a way that’s not regulated.” How do they make that a habit and a pattern as opposed to just doing it once?
Dr. Nick:
So this is where we come back to systems, right? We need to substitute and replace that pattern. And I call it, it’s not just mindless spending, but also mindless debting, right? Where we don’t cancel the subscriptions and we are late on the payments again. And so really taking a look at just one of the things, because typically when people have issues with this, it’s not just one thing, it’s a multitude of things. It’s, “Well, as soon as I go outside and I see something nice, I want to buy it to make me feel better.” Okay, well, what else makes you feel better? What are you going to say to yourself instead? If you are mindlessly, again, debting and having purchases come on and not canceling them in time, maybe it’s we set a date the third of the month, at least for me, that’s kind of that sweet spot before everything is due and the third of the month, whether it’s due on the 27th, the 16th, the 1st of the next month, everything’s getting done on that one day.
What you also want to be thinking about is cognitively offloading, right? So a lot of times people are just so bogged down with the stress and the layers of responsibility that it’s really hard to say, “Okay, let’s create this system and I have to be on top of all of the other things.” My hope to people is that you don’t need to be on top of this. Let’s just create this one thing, this one system that’s going to just cognitively offload you so this is the one thing that you do not have to think about anymore. You set it and you forget it.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s so helpful. And I think for me, what I teach is like a money date, where it’s sit down once a month, look at your money, look at your automation for your savings accounts. Have a designated time to check in on all of this because that’s also your designated time to build those systems. Because I hear the same thing, people are like, “I’m so in the day-to-day or the moment-to-moment, I can’t even think about having enough time to build the system.” And I’m like, “No, you got to give time to build the system because then you’re no longer in the day-to-day.”
Dr. Nick:
You actually also have to just trick your mind into doing it. Seriously, when we talk about it right now, it’s very easy to be said than to be done. You really have to schedule it in your calendar. What time are you going to do this? Are you going to do it just before you leave work? Are you going to do it just before you go to bed? When are you realistically going to sit down and do it? Make it an appointment, like you’re making an appointment with a neurologist that you cannot miss. And you have to do it at least six to seven times before we can say, “Yeah, that doesn’t really work for me. We have to actually give it that good system and pad that system so that it’s actually attainable in actually doing it.”
Tori Dunlap:
You work with a lot of high-achieving women. How does burnout quietly shape financial decisions in ways people don’t realize until much later?
Dr. Nick:
What I’m often seeing is kind of a giving up kind of theme. And so when they reach real burnout, clinical burnout, it’s like, “Well, I’m not really paying attention to my stocks anymore. And I have the money, so I’m just going to spend it on whatever I want. It’s not like the lights are going to go out.” And so there’s a little bit of a passive carelessness that I see. And so what we’re really trying to do is set a goal that is lucrative for them. What do you want to do? If you were able to do this, how would you feel about it? Would you be proud of yourself about it? And again, I wish there was different words to make it not sound cheesy, but that’s what it is, right?
So I think that when we’re quietly burning out, it’s really important to catch it early because a lot of times when we’re talking about burnout, people think this is something that’s temporary and, “Oh, I’m just going to take a week or a month off work and go back.”
Tori Dunlap:
Right. It’s fixable.
Dr. Nick:
And it’s much deeper than that, right? So it does take some work there.
Tori Dunlap:
And I think it’s something that people don’t talk about enough that when you are making good money, it’s actually a lot easier to ignore your money. It’s a lot easier to just be like, “Well, I’m making good money and it’s fine.” Until you realize, “Oh, I’m spending almost all of it and I’m not thinking strategically about how to grow it or protect myself.” And that’s, I think, a trap we don’t discuss enough because if you are living paycheck to paycheck or even making enough money to get by, you still have to be super dialed in. You don’t have a lot of flexibility versus if you’re making, I don’t know what the number is, 150K plus? It’s like, I can kind of just do what I want and not really pay attention.
And I think that’s one of the things that also impacts women that they don’t realize until much later down the line. “Oh, I’ve just been wasting years not viewing this as a strategic thing to do.” Or like, “I could be strategic with my money. I could allow this really good salary to work even harder for me, but I’m just kind of ignoring it.”
Dr. Nick:
You’re absolutely right. And it’s kind of to your earlier point is if I know how to do it, why am I not doing it? And that is the result of that.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Dr. Nick:
That’s the result of that. And so typically, listen, we’re all adults and the benefits of being a grownup is that you can do whatever you want.
Tori Dunlap:
Right.
Dr. Nick:
You can’t spend all the money without having a safety net. But when you think honestly and have that honest discussion with yourself of, “Okay, where do I want to be in 20 years and how can I get there?” Even if you say, “All right, let me at least not spend this X and then the rest is free game.” Starting with something small and doable is kind of the best approach. But I think the problem that people often face is that they try to go big. They go big with the systems, they complicate the systems, and then when they all come crashing down at the same time, and it’s like, “Oh, well, it didn’t really work. So here we are. I’m bad at money.” Come full circle.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah, it’s the, “I’m going to go work out for two hours every single day at the gym.” And then when inevitably a weekend you’re not able to do that because of course you’re not, you’re not a psychopath. It’s not doable. And then I think what you just said is so common, which is, “Oh, then it must not work.” Like, “Oh, I tried it.” But not really, you didn’t really try it or you went way too hard, which is also not what we’re saying. And then of course it doesn’t work, but then it’s a lot easier to say, “Well, I guess, I just can’t hack it, or I guess this podcast doesn’t actually, this episode didn’t really teach me anything.” It’s like, no, all of that’s there, but you have to remain consistent and it has to be the smaller wins. And I think we get caught up in the sexiness of big decisions or big systems, but the sexy, exciting things are not the things that are actually going to get you where you want to be.
Dr. Nick:
And you brought up a really good example about those gym goals because I know people that do go to the gym for two hours, which is something.
Tori Dunlap:
They’re psychopaths. Can’t even imagine.
Dr. Nick:
But they don’t start off that way, right?
Tori Dunlap:
No. Of course not.
Dr. Nick:
Nobody starts off that way. And so the folks that are now going to the gym for two hours a day, they started going to the gym twice a week and they were only doing the treadmill for 30 minutes and then they were out of there. And then once you start to see those little bit of gains, you lost a little bit of weight, you gained a little bit of strength. “Oh, well, now I’m going to make it 45 minutes. Now I’m going to try a class. Now I’m going to do this.” It’s the same thing with every single aspect. So when you’re thinking about consistency and dopamine and all of these things, one of the other things that I want to mention just about the brain is that your amygdala that holds your emotional memories, it’s basically what tells the limbic system like, “Oh, hey, this is what’s going on. This is a familiar feeling to me, so start reacting to it this way.”
This is why so many times a feeling of I’m bad at money, that amygdala, “Remember the last time? Remember the last time you messed up? This is this again, this is this again. See? See? See?” And so you really want to be able to kind of change that narrative in that amygdala. So you start having these good emotional memories around finances. And so by taking the smallest actions and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, now the amygdala is changing a little bit where it’s like, “Oh wait, I was able to do this last time. Now I can do this. This is in the research. This is really how it works.” And so yes, it’s about consistency, but it’s also about getting those dopamine hits along the way or else, yeah, what’s the point?
Tori Dunlap:
Is this what we’re talking about when we think about encoding on the brain? Is this the same thing?
Dr. Nick:
It can be, right? So when I think about encoding, I’m thinking about attention, so how we process information. And so the first passive information is encoding and that encoding storage, and then it gets to short-term memory and then it gets to long-term memory. Now when it’s coming to the amygdala, yes, there’s been some encoding of information that’s been placed, right? If it’s like, no, as if you were a kid and your parents were like, “No, you can’t have candy at the store in the thing because it’s a waste of money. You can’t have that toy. It’s not your birthday. You need a special occasion to buy something.” All of those do get encoded into that amygdala, those feelings of, “Oh, should I buy this for myself for no reason?” That amygdala checks in and it’s like, “Oh wait, remember?”
So yes, absolutely there’s kind of an encoding of emotional memories that happens that. And so it is something that it is your brain that’s doing it. It’s not your own volition.
Tori Dunlap:
We haven’t said the word yet, but we’ve been dancing around it. Let’s talk about willpower because a lot of people just think, “Oh, I can’t do that thing because I don’t have enough willpower. I can’t go to the gym every single day because I don’t have enough willpower. I can’t save money because I don’t have…” We could do any goal here and the reason you can’t achieve it gets blamed on willpower. Debunk that for me.
Dr. Nick:
So willpower, I think people confuse willpower with a lot of different things.
Tori Dunlap:
Yes.
Dr. Nick:
And I see it all the time. I try not to be on social media, but when I do, it is reinforced actually a lot by coaches and things like that, that’ll say like, “You can start a business at 4:00 PM to 9:00 PM and just do all that and don’t watch TV. You just need the willpower to do it.” I’m like, “Really? Is that what’s going to happen?” Yeah. Talk to me about willpower when you’re well-rested, well-fed, not stressed, and-
Tori Dunlap:
Financially stable.
Dr. Nick:
… we can talk about willpower. Financially stable. But I think that to me, there’s no such thing as the word laziness that often comes in commensurate with the willpower, like, “Oh, I’m lazy.” And I’ve never spoken with someone that has called themselves lazy when they don’t have something big that’s going on, something stressful that’s going on, something they need to be dealing with. And so, if you can tell me your life is completely clear, you’re stress-free, then sure, talk to me about willpower. But I don’t really believe in this idea of willpower. You just need to buck up and get it done, that kind of a thing. You can do that, but again, you have to make sure those barriers are out of the way. You cannot have willpower with barriers blocking you.
Tori Dunlap:
And on the flip side, I think of the very intense willpower, and we are kind of broifying willpower here, but they’ve done it themselves. On the flip side of that, self-compassion is often understood as letting yourself off the hook. No, I have to speak to myself with shame because that’s what I need. So from a brain perspective, how does self-compassion actually improve follow through and decision making?
Dr. Nick:
If you have self-compassion, you are more likely to hold good boundaries with money. When you say no to others, you’re saying yes to yourself. And I don’t think people have enough self-compassion and they say yes to a lot of things that they shouldn’t. And so it’s interesting that people do prioritize willpower versus self-compassion, but it is something that if you don’t have it, and you do have it, just probably not enough, to be honest.
Tori Dunlap:
Or it’s quiet.
Dr. Nick:
So people have… Exactly. The older you get, there’s a reason why we don’t have a bunch of 40-year-olds going to the club anymore. There’s self-compassion. We don’t want to stay out late. We want our sleep, right? But I think that it does start somewhere and what you wouldn’t judge someone else for, you really don’t want to judge yourself for. And so if someone comes to you and says, “Listen, I am in this job and I really want to make more money and I can, and it’s the same thing, and I feel like I’m letting myself down,” how would you treat them? Are you going to be like, “Well, you don’t have enough willpower”? And you have compassion for them. And so that’s the same thing you should be offering to yourself.
Tori Dunlap:
Well, and we’re in a society that upholds patriarchy, and white supremacy, and capitalism. And all of those love willpower, which is push through, doesn’t matter how hard you’re working, doesn’t matter if you’re injured, doesn’t matter. You have to want it the most. Versus self-compassion feels very soft. It feels very communal or it’s so different than what we’ve been taught in the society we exist in. Even you were talking on this episode, you’re like, “It sounds cheesy, but…” And I think that is what self-compassion is that we all feel kind of embarrassed about it.
I don’t know if it’ll be out by the time this episode is out, but I just recorded an episode a couple hours ago about how we have to talk to ourselves out loud and almost parent our inner child sometimes out loud. And the thing I had to say is the things that sound crazy or that people would see and go, “That’s insane.” Those are sometimes the things that are actually helpful are the very things you feel embarrassed about. And self-compassion kind of feels embarrassing because we’ve been told by society that you should just suck it up buttercup every single time.
Dr. Nick:
Yeah. I do think that there’s definitely that misconception around self-compassion, but for those of you that want to improve your own self-compassion, I would want you to replace that term with willpower, right? So when I think about self-compassion, seriously, right?
Tori Dunlap:
Yep, I love that.
Dr. Nick:
That means you have to start saying yes to yourself. You need to start saying no to other people. It means that you need to start making the decisions that might hurt other people’s feelings. No, maybe you’re not going to go to Bali next week and maybe you’re not going to go because you have other things to prioritize and really putting yourself first. I call it more of a self-centeredness as opposed to selfishness, which people confuse the two terms, but you do want to center yourself and ground yourself. And that’s where that self-compassion and that discipline and that willpower should be first and the rest will follow.
Tori Dunlap:
A common thing that we see is a boom-bust cycle of getting your finances together, feeling motivated, then something comes up, an emergency, go back into bad patterns again, and then you avoid your finances entirely. And then an emergency happens where you realize you have to get… It keeps going on this cycle of caring and then not caring after something happens. What’s happening neurologically in these boom-bust patterns?
Dr. Nick:
So it’s back to habits, right? We always have known that there’s a brain-body connection, right? And most recently, there’s a body-mind connection. And so we work and we behave automatically, right? And so there’s this automaticity to it where your body’s used to doing the same things and the brain is… It kind of shuts off because it’s like, we know what to do. We know how to go to work and all of those things.
Tori Dunlap:
Autopilot.
Dr. Nick:
Now when the brain says, “Oh, I have a baby habit that I’m going to try. I’m going to get my systems together.” The body’s like, “Okay, well, we’ll try this out.” Sends that messages up through the limbic system to the brain, brain sends it back down. We’re doing the system and all the things. And then just like you mentioned, something chaotic happens, something stressful happens, and then the body’s like, “Let me take over.” Because your brain is elsewhere. And we go back to that automatic way that we’re used to being.
And so that’s why when we’re talking about progress, it’s not as linear as people would love it to be. Okay? It’s going to be up and then it’s going to be down, but it’s going to be like the stock market. It never crashes back to zero, not all the way, right? It just is going to crash a little bit, but it’s so important that you continue on that journey. It’s like when people say, “Oh, I fell off the bandwagon.” It’s like, “Well, was the horse tired?”
Tori Dunlap:
Give it time.
Dr. Nick:
Right? Does a horse need to take a sleep or a drink? Let’s get back on and be on your way. But that is, you can expect that to happen. I don’t think that can be avoided. The only time I’ve ever seen people take up a habit and then just sustain it without flaw is just when you hit your 20s, when you’re just coming out of that Superman complex that I can do anything. They can typically do it because they have their hormones and all of that, it’s a little bit different. But when you hit 30, let me tell you, any new habit is going to take a lot of work and you should expect some failures.
Tori Dunlap:
It was a transformation for me a couple years ago when I realized as a business owner, my job is not to try to prevent every emergency because I cannot prevent every emergency. My job is to learn how to respond to it. And I think that that alone has been so helpful, both in the running of my business and also in my life. I cannot prepare emotionally, physically, financially for every single thing that’s going to happen. Even if I am perfect, which by the way, I’m not. Even if I make every perfect decision, there’s so much out of my control. So rather than trying to control what you can’t control, control your response to it, I think has been so helpful for me.
Okay. So you mentioned 20s, 30s, and we talked before you hopped on the mic, when we share the age of our audience and how we often talk about money in decades, right? Money in your 20s, money in your 30s, 40s. You brought up how our emotional regulation changes over the years and you just brought it up again. Can we discuss that more? What is changing as we age?
Dr. Nick:
Let’s start from the end. When we hit our 70s and 80s, you find the folks that are the most wise, they actually are unfiltered. They are unfiltered. They don’t care what anybody thinks. They’re going to do whatever they want. Their emotional regulation is set because they realize they don’t need to carry the emotions of others and they can actually be their truest selves. And so we see the most relaxation in that age group. And then when you hit your 50s and 60s, you also start to realize, you actually start to feel like an adult, right? You’re heading towards the end of middle age there. You are starting to feel like I am in a little bit more control and I don’t have to be as on edge. And so when we’re thinking about financial decisions and things like that, listen, there’s folks in their 20s that are brilliant with their finances, same with their 30s and all of that.
For the average person, though they are doing the standard things, the passive things, what they’re given by their employers, they’re not taking additional action. And the reason why is because they have so much loaded responsibility, right? 30s is really where everything gets loaded on you. You’re no longer dancing on bar tables anymore. You have to start being an adult. And so there’s a lot that comes with that, right? Impressing the boss, making sure that your life is on track. And so when you’re cognitively overloaded, you may not be thinking about the long term in 50 years. And so the regulation between 30s and 40s is much different because it is a decade of stress. And then for women specifically, when they hit their 40s to 50s, perimenopause symptoms start to hit in. And unfortunately, it’s not until recently we’ve started even talking about that, right?
It was just happening and people were just kind of navigating that on their own. And so there’s now a flux of symptoms of depression, the brain fog and all of that. And so it’s kind of like, well, I just need to take care of myself and I can’t really think about finances. Which you mentioned earlier, until it is a fire right in front of me, it’s not going to be something that is more pronounced. And so it’s really about thinking, okay, I know that I’m going to be going through these shifts and these are the things that I need to be doing and these are the things that I need to be deciding ahead of time because the shifts are going to happen whether you like them or not.
And of course, in your 20s, this is when we’re the most reckless. We don’t even develop our frontal lobes until we’re 25. So any decisions we’re making before then, I am really curious what’s happening there, but with a lot of guidance, of course, it will work out.
Tori Dunlap:
When we think about those transition periods, 29 into 30, 39 into 40, how can we best prep for the new stage in our life from a brain-body connection standpoint?
Dr. Nick:
So the way that we would prepare is really to assess our environment. The best thing that I could tell people to do, whether you’re in your 20s, 30s, or 40s, is to think about what are the main things that cause the most amount of stress. We really need to have a plan for that, whether it’s finances or not, because if there’s no plan, then you will stay stagnant in that space. So I would say if you want to prepare financially, you want to have a goal, a micro goal ahead of time, but also think about what are the things that are going to prevent you from getting there? Because there’s going to be things that are going to prevent you from getting there. If it’s your support system that’s like, “Well, I don’t think you can do it,” then we need to talk about how they are not your support system, right? We need to talk about all of those sort of barriers. So it’s really doing a self-assessment of where you’re at in your environment, your support system, and all of those sort of environmental barriers before we can even start preparing.
Tori Dunlap:
Yeah. And I think all of this is how do you take stock without it becoming a shame spiral? How do you take stock of what’s going on? “Oh, are my friendships or my relationships actually supportive?” And if they’re not, rather than going, “Oh my gosh, how did I stay in this relationship for so long?” Or, “Why can’t I… I guess I’m not good enough to have good friends.” Rather than it becoming this thing of shame or identity, you have to view it as data. I joke about being an anthropologist in your own life, but that’s the way I try to communicate it with people is it’s just like, “Oh, interesting. Okay. When I got a promotion at work, my friend got weird about that and was not supportive of that.” Interesting. It’s just another data point for you to think about to inform your decisions. It should not be and does not have to be a personal criticism or a moral failing that is your fault.
Dr. Nick:
Absolutely. And I think for so many people that are emotionally intelligent, sophisticated, they know that, but there’s something about it, right? And that’s kind of where the therapy comes in, right? It’s so much easier said than done. It’s so funny when people are like, “Don’t care what other people think.” It’s like, really?
Tori Dunlap:
Impossible. Impossible.
Dr. Nick:
Is that what you’re doing? It’s amazing to me that that sometimes is advice, is not to care what other people think. I would love that. I would love that for you and everyone else and myself, but the fact is that we care. My theory is though, how much are we going to care? How much stock are we going to put into this? How much effort are we going to put into this? As a neuropsychologist, as a rehab neuropsychologist, it’s always about protecting the brain and cognitively offloading, right? We’re not going to try to stress the brain out. We already know that chronic anxiety, chronic stress shrinks the hippocampus, shrinks your ability to recall things. And so we really need to be thinking about your own health, right?
And so yes, doing that self-evaluation, no, you’re not going to cut off all your friends. But obviously, you’re going to reassess what kind of friend are they going to be. We just ended up talking about the lifespan. It’s always interesting to me when people are like, “I have had my friend from kindergarten, we’re still best friends.” I was like, “Really? How does that work?” Because just decade through decade, we lose people and we gain people, right? And there’s friends that are good for certain things, but I do think that we do have this mindset of we have this one person, and because we met them and anchored to them in this one way, there are all of our things, right?
So when you think about when you were 10 years old, this was your play date person, and your study person, and you’re calling on the phone person. But when you think about your life now, you have friends that they will talk to you for hours on the phone. But try to get them to go out for dinner, it’s just not going to happen. And then there’s other friends that will drop everything for you, but they’re not going to go on that vacation or the ones that are so funny and you love to be around, but when you talk to them about something serious, they can’t tolerate. And so really knowing, engaging what you share with people and really thinking about what your support looks like is also going to help you when you’re thinking about, this is how I need to be healthy to make financial decisions. It’s not just finances, it’s everything around you in context.
Tori Dunlap:
What you were just talking about with friendships, I also think about with dreams or goals is you hear, especially the Olympics are about to start, and they’ll probably already be starting by the time this episode comes out. But it’s like, you’re going to hear the story of the athletes who are like, “I started when I was four years old and this has been my dream for 30 years is to be a figure skater.” And there’s going to be some people like that. Absolutely. And also, you’re allowed to grow and change. I have a theater degree from a very young age. I thought I’m going to be an actor. This is the only thing I can possibly be. And then I didn’t do that. And do I miss it? Do I grieve that dream sometimes? Absolutely. Am I also pretty fuckin’ happy with the career I chose? Yeah.
And I think all of this is just a reminder of how hesitant we are as human beings, because our brains are wired this way, how hesitant we are to change, how hesitant we are to actually make lasting change because change is uncomfy. It’s not fun. It’s not a good time, especially in the early days. It’s like, yeah, it’s deeply uncomfortable. And I think that is the feeling so many people who are listening have is they know something needs to change, but again, they know, but the doing is so hard. So everything you’ve talked about already is so impactful and helpful for just speaking more kindly to yourself, helping regulate your own nervous system and your own emotions.
My last question for you is, if someone is feeling disconnected or distrustful of themselves financially, what is the first step to rebuilding that relationship?
Dr. Nick:
I would say do it in partnership, in whatever they feel comfortable with. If you don’t trust yourself, borrow someone else’s trust, right? And so that could be, seriously, that could be either with a financial coach, that could be with a therapist, but I don’t think it’s something that you should DIY, right? Because you’re going to be battling your own internal thoughts and your own internal narratives, right? And so for those of you that are like, “Well, I’m not that bad, but I still want to make change,” but you do have those shame cycles.
What I do want, encourage people to do is really start from where you are today and then make the progress and only look back to today. We’re not looking back to what happened six months ago, three months ago, six years ago, because that keeps you in that shame cycle. We’re starting today and we’re going to look back from there. So those are the two things I would recommend is staying present and then also seeking partnership with a professional.
Tori Dunlap:
This was such a valuable conversation that I know people are going to come back to time and time again. I would love if people listening shared this with friends. That would be my dream is being able to, again, have that community and have conversations about everything they just learned. Thank you for joining us. Plug away, my friend. Where can people find out more about you?
Dr. Nick:
You can find out about me at drnicolemurray.com. I’m actually launching a YouTube channel relatively shortly. So you can also find me there where I talk about emotional regulation, neuropsychology, and all of the fun cognitive things.
Tori Dunlap:
That’s amazing. Thank you so much for being here.
Tori Dunlap:
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminists, produced by Her First $100K. If you love the show and want to keep supporting feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you’re looking for resources, tools, and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to http://herfirst100k.com/ffpod.
Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Research by Sarah Sciortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and Operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Leffew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K, Kailyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmetyeva, Sasha Bonar, Rae Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Daryl Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Meghan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over five million women negotiate salaries, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of over 2.1 million on Instagram and 2.4 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
