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You shouldn’t feel guilty about job hopping
Once upon a time, you gave up your entire life in service of one company and one career –– but things are changing.
Studies show that moving jobs increases your ability to earn more income at a faster pace than staying at one company and waiting for a pay increase or bonuses that may never come.
For years, we’ve seen companies talk down about people who choose to leave after a few years, saying this new generation of workers has “no loyalty” when that couldn’t be farther from the truth. Still, those messages often keep us stuck in workplaces where our growth stagnates, and our income potential decreases each year in that same cubicle.
Today’s guest, Cinneah El-Amin, has cracked the code on corporate, leveraging her skills and her ability to job hop to help her double her income in just a few short years. She spends her time helping other 9 to 5 hotties earn more and negotiate better benefits with her company, Flynanced.
What you’ll learn:
-
How to ditch the job-hopping guilt
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Using your previous experience to help you land a new role, even if you don’t meet all of the requirements
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How to navigate “benefits” lingo to get what you really want
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Building a side hustle without burning out
Cinneah’s Links:
MEET CINNEAH
Cinneah (pronounced: sin-ee-ah) is the founder of Flynanced, an online platform that teaches ambitious working women “9-5 hotties” how to earn more and effortlessly build wealth so that they can claim the lifestyles they want RIGHT NOW without shame.
As a product manager shaping some of the most iconic financial products at global companies like American Express and Mastercard, Cinneah has grown her salary by 4X in 4 years. She made the decision to become debt free in 2020 after paying off over $23,000 of credit card debt, personal loan and student loan debt in 12 months. Shortly after, she reached her first $100k net worth milestone at 26 years old.
Her story has been featured on ABC’s Good Morning America, Kiplinger’s Personal Finance, Fortune, Business Insider, Travel Noire, Black Enterprise, Grow by Acorns x CNBC, Real Simple, and others.
Cinneah is an avid traveler but calls NYC home. She is a graduate of Barnard College of Columbia University and Wake Forest University School of Business.
Resources:
Feeling Overwhelmed? Start here!
Free “How to Land the Job” Webinar
Our HYSA Partner Recommendation (terms apply)
Become an investor and join our Investing Community, Treasury, with Investing 101
Behind the Scenes and Extended Clips on Youtube
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Take our FREE Money Personality Quiz
Transcript:
Tori Dunlap (00:00:00):
Hello, Financial Feminists. Today is a very special day. Not only is this episode so value packed and fun. I was telling my producer, Kristen, that I think there was a gas leak in the studio this day. It was very hot. We were both like very sweaty in the studio. We had a great time in New York, but we also get to introduce you to our newest HFK Creator. A common misconception about Her First $100K is that it’s all about and solely run by me. And yes, I did start Her First $100K. I’m the founder and CEO, but Her First $100K is not me. I am not Her First $100K. HFK is not my identity, it is a company run by me and it was my journey to saving a 100K at 25 that launched us. But HFK is a team now of 13 people and growing with a mission to bring financial education to everyone.
Tori Dunlap (00:00:45):
So we think it’s important to share voices from all backgrounds and in all phases of life and to not just hear from me all the time. So earlier this year, we introduced you to Mallory Rowan, our Canadian finance creator. And if you are Canadian or interested in real estate or anything like that, we both have previous episodes with her as well as future episodes and we feature her on our Instagram and TikTok. And now we’re introducing you to Cinneah El-Amin who has built her business financed around being and supporting 9 to 5 hotties looking to increase their wealth and build a life they love. So in today’s conversation, we talk about her journey working in the tech world and how she’s expertly navigated corporate life to make it work for her instead of the other way around.
Tori Dunlap (00:01:27):
We get into how to take advantage of paid time off policies without guilt, how to navigate your salary negotiation, the art of shamelessly job hopping to increase your income and so much more. This is one of the most valuable episodes we have ever done y’all and especially valuable around navigating any type of corporate situation, any type of career. And if a 9 to 5 is not your thing, if you are an entrepreneur, there is still so much to learn from this episode around advocating for what you’re worth aro
und establishing your boundaries around work. It’s such a valuable conversation. This episode is a great intro into who Cinneah is, a little on her background and expertise and a little taste of the value that she’ll continue to bring to our community. You’re going to absolutely love her. Let’s get into.
Tori Dunlap (00:02:29):
Hi.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:02:30):
Hello.
Tori Dunlap (00:02:31):
I am so excited you’re here. Okay. Talk to me about Mexico. You were living in Mexico for how long?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:02:37):
I was in Mexico for three amazing months.
Tori Dunlap (00:02:39):
That’s what I thought.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:02:41):
Where I was pretty much just like fuck this. Living in quarantine, New York city if people can remember the wild, wild west of 2020 and early 2021. It was rough.
Tori Dunlap (00:02:53):
We don’t want to forget, but yes.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:02:54):
It was rough. It was really rough.
Tori Dunlap (00:02:56):
Do you live alone?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:02:57):
I was not living alone at the time.
Tori Dunlap (00:02:58):
Okay.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:02:58):
So that, I think that even compounded my anxiety, that I was just feeling, just those four walls of my bedroom that’s literally, I mean, a third of the size of this space that we’re sitting in right now.
Tori Dunlap (00:03:09):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:03:10):
Just the walls were caving in on me. It was my creative studio. It was my home office.
Tori Dunlap (00:03:14):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:03:14):
It was my living room, dining room, everything. Yeah too much.
Tori Dunlap (00:03:17):
Your gym.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:03:18):
Girl.
Tori Dunlap (00:03:18):
Yeah.
Ci
nneah El-Amin (00:03:19):
So yeah, going to Tulum was an experience that I honestly thought I would not have been able to do until I was further along in my career. I think I had all of these ideas, like girl, no, you need to wait until you’re a director, you need to wait to till you have an X number of years of experience to be able to-
Tori Dunlap (00:03:35):
Yeah. Tough it out for a while to earn it.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:03:37):
Yeah. And like all that was bullshit.
Tori Dunlap (00:03:39):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:03:40):
It was all bullshit. And I’m so glad that I went because it’s so funny now looking all these companies talking about work from anywhere weeks and all of this, right? That I’m so glad I didn’t allow the naysayers to kind of keep me from taking that leap because I’m so glad that I did. There were no implications to me literally working from another country.
Tori Dunlap (00:04:01):
Yep.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:04:01):
I got my work done. It was great. It was transformative for sure.
Tori Dunlap (00:04:06):
It had to have been cheaper than New York.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:04:07):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it was the first time I think, since making the kind of money that I make now that I was able to comfortably save more than half of my salary.
Tori Dunlap (00:04:17):
That’s amazing.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:04:17):
Yeah. Yeah. We know the market that we were in 2021. So that was also, I mean my 401k went up like $40,000 in a single year from me maxing it out.
Tori Dunlap (00:04:28):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:04:28):
Getting all these gains from the ways that we were riding. It was incredible.
Tori Dunlap (00:04:33):
Well, if you’re maxing it out, it’s going up 40K, max is 1920K.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:04:37):
Yeah. Yep. So I was pretty much was doubling my-
Tori Dunlap (00:04:39):
Yep. You’re seeing double.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:04:40):
Yeah. Easy. I was doubling my money and doing with ease. I think that there’s still this idea that, oh, if you are pursuing fire, you’ve got to be heavy on the frugal life, but being-
Tori Dunlap (00:04:51):
You got to shrimp on rice and beans and-
&n
bsp; Cinneah El-Amin (00:04:54):
Yeah. Yeah, no, I was still enjoying Tulum. I was in a two bedroom, two bath apartment. I pretty much elevated my lifestyle at the same or lower cost than what I was paying in New York.
Tori Dunlap (00:05:04):
Was that painful coming back to New York, then?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:05:07):
It wasn’t painful in that I think there was still a part of me that wanted this kind of independence in New York City that I had never felt before, because I couldn’t afford it, right? I’d never lived by myself even before Tulum, I’d never lived by myself.
Tori Dunlap (00:05:21):
I feel like New York’s only fun if you have some money to-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:05:24):
Oh, that’s the whole thing, girl.
Tori Dunlap (00:05:26):
New York’s only can get really fun when you have some sort of discretionary ability to yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:05:35):
Absolutely. No, absolutely. And I feel like now that I’m kind of in more my rich bitch era, I feel like I’m actually enjoying-
Tori Dunlap (00:05:41):
Right, right, right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:05:42):
New York city to your point, right.
Tori Dunlap (00:05:43):
The fruits of your labor. Yeah. Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:05:44):
Yeah. And I think having that independence that I think I always wanted when I was hustling hard, early in my career and lived with two roommates and I was just living in this box, literally shafted. I mean, I lived in an apartment, I was shafted for three and a half years and saw the sunlight for a good hour every day.
Tori Dunlap (00:06:02):
Oh no.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:06:02):
I think that just kind of wanting to change that and see myself just in a new space, I had to come back also summertime in New York City is undefeated.
Tori Dunlap (00:06:11):
Yeah. I’m leaving right before it gets hot. We had our hot weekend this weekend and I was out because I’m from the Pacific Northwest, I can’t do it. If it’s over 75, 70, 78, 78’s perfect.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:06:24):
Yeah. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:06:24):
And anything hotter than that? I’m out. I can’t do it.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:06:25):
Oh girl. Well at least you had a taste of it.
Tori Dunlap (00:06:25):
Oh, I did hav
e a taste of it.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:06:25):
The city was up.
Tori Dunlap (00:06:29):
I was sticky. I was [spitzing 00:06:32] for 48 hours straight, weren’t we all?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:06:34):
Oh my God.
Tori Dunlap (00:06:36):
No and that lovely subway air, that’s like Satan’s ass, that’s just nice and spicy down there. No Mexico, what I loved about it and you were gracious enough to be interviewed for my book as well, and we’ll get into it. But I think one of the coolest things about that specific example is it’s like, again, money gives you options, right? It’s like, cool, I have a little bit of money. I’m going to go do this thing that plenty of people specifically, women will never get to do, let me live in a tropical beautiful place and do something that unfortunately society is deemed “selfish”. And yet yes selfish in the best possible way.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:07:15):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:07:16):
Why shouldn’t we want that? Why shouldn’t we be able to have that?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:07:19):
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think for me, it was also just, I think, challenging these ideas that even as a young woman, I could create the life that I wanted right now. I don’t have to wait until I’m a multimillionaire. I don’t need to wait until I’m retired. I don’t need to wait until any of these qualify me.
Tori Dunlap (00:07:39):
Till I get a man, till I progress in my career. Yeah. So yeah to your point of referral-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:07:43):
It was a hot girl summer for real. I had a hot single summer, okay? So I think that was the biggest thing for me. I think that it just, it really, I think reminded me of my power and to be able to do that, to be able to live broad solo as a young black woman, I think there’s still a lot of fear mongering that happens when you start to talk about being a young solo woman traveling, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:08:10):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:08:10):
But I think I also had to model for other people in my family, in my community that it’s okay.
Tori Dunlap (00:08:17):
It’s possible.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:08:18):
It’s possible, it’s safe and showing other women that if you have that voice inside you, that’s calling for that to follow that because you just never know the people you’ll meet, the experiences you’ll have, the breakthroughs you’ll have and I think all of that is priceless.
Tori Dunlap (00:08:34):
I fled to Hawaii for a month when I was really not doing well and hardly told anybody.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:08:39):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:08:39):
And did it completely on my own. And probably if not the best month, one of the best months of my life and yeah the ability, I just felt so, I hate the word empowered, but that’s how I felt like. That’s the best way to describe it, b
ut it was just like, I got here on my own dime. I’m running my business out of a Airbnb in Hawaii where I watch the sunset every night, oh, I’m driving my Mustang convertible I’ve rented-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:09:05):
Yes.
Tori Dunlap (00:09:06):
… to the grocery store. I buy groceries with my own money and I know what to cook and so I’m going to buy. It was just great.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:09:11):
Literally.
Tori Dunlap (00:09:12):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:09:13):
Literally.
Tori Dunlap (00:09:13):
Yeah. If that doesn’t build your conf, I don’t know what fuck the will.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:09:16):
Okay?
Tori Dunlap (00:09:19):
Oh, it makes me so happy. Okay. So we posted a tweet of yours and it resonated with our audience beautifully, “Unlimited PTO is not a scam. The only scam is being a grown adult asking for permission to take time off at work.” Talk to me about that.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:09:38):
I’m so sassy on Twitter.
Tori Dunlap (00:09:39):
You are, I’m here for it. Twitter’s just where I talk about Timothy Shalloway. That’s all I do on Twitter. Twitter’s my one social media account that I still have full access to. My rest of my team is in there.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:09:53):
And then pull the reigns.
Tori Dunlap (00:09:59):
Literally. I’ve had to go get a personal Instagram account because my team’s like you got to chill out a little bit. And I’m like, okay, fine.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:10:04):
This is my business.
Tori Dunlap (00:10:07):
Yeah. You can’t post shirtless pictures Timothy Shalloway, one a week, one a week.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:10:11):
I love that.
Tori Dunlap (00:10:15):
Okay. Talk to me about that tweet.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:10:16):
Yeah. So I think taking a step back, I am someone who fell into a well paid career and didn’t really know what the hell I was doing when I started working, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:10:28):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:10:28):
I woke up one day and I was a product manager and then the world started evolving around this idea that, oh, product managers are highly strategic and there should be highly paid. And I think with that, right, we talk a lot about total compensation. We talk a lot about getting to the bag. But I feel like there’s also a big conversation that’s happening on social media around specifically just the benefit of unlimited PTO, nothing really else. But just, I think people are obsessed with this idea that there are those among us that work traditional 9 to 5 jobs that do have a level of freedom as it regards to when they take time off.
Tori Dunlap (00:11:05):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:11:05):
And being paid, right? So I think that tweet was really a response to really just a lot of comments that I’ve gotten on my own content, that I’ve seen circulate in other forms of social media.
Tori Dunlap (00:11:17):
I’ve seen it too.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:11:18):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:11:19):
And I will say, I think some companies, they use the unlimited PTO in a way to never encourage time off.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:11:27):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:11:28):
But just like anything, there’s some things that are used as tools, there’s some things that are abused, right?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:11:33):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:11:34):
And I’ve worked at companies that have unlimited PTO and as long as you’re not absolutely ridiculous about it, they kind of mean it.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:11:39):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:11:39):
There’s other companies who are like unlimited PTO is our excuse to not give a very specific PTO policy so no one ever takes PTO.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:11:48):
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap (00:11:48):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:11:49):
Exactly, yeah. I totally agree with that. I think that as I have learned more about what is out there for 9 to 5 hotties, I definitely think that the companies that do it best when it comes to a limited PTO are really the ones that are giving guidelines and really encouraging employees to take time off. Whether that is all employees must take four weeks throughout the year or what are those guidelines look like. I think just having a loaded PTO and kind of leaving it up to one zone manager to decide, oh yeah, this is the right level, the right threshold, I think it’s difficult. And I think often puts the employee in an uncomfortable situation where we have to kind of decide, is this too much?
Tori Dunlap (00:12:29):
Right, is this reasonable?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:12:31):
Is this not enough? What’s reasonable?
Tori Dunlap (00:12:31):
Well, and I’ve worked at companies who give PTO, but you’re actively shamed if you use it. So you have those companies out there that you’re supposed to give PTO in theory but then it is a badge of honor if you don’t take it, which is just gross.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:12:49):
It is gross. It is gross.
Tori Dunlap (00:12:51):
Yeah. So if you don’t work in tech, can you describe to me kind of your career trajectory of how you landed in this and what project manager do?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:12:57):
Project or product?
Tori Dunlap (00:12:58):
Product.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:12:59):
Okay. Yes.
Tori Dunlap (00:12:59):
Product. Yes. Explain it for us?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:13:01):
Yeah. So my career extensively worked in finance, financial services, FinTech. FinTech now. But when I graduated from college, I went to Barnard. I did a one year masters at Wake Forest. After that, I still didn’t know what the fuck I wanted to do. Here I was, I always did well in school, but never really had someone to kind of tap me on the shoulder and say you’d be great for this obscure career path over here called product management, that never really happened.
Tori Dunlap (00:13:30):
I don’t know if that happens with anybody. Well, there’s very little-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:13:33):
I mean some people.
Tori Dunlap (00:13:34):
Sure. I mean, I guess, if you’re going to doctor school, you will be a doctor, right?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:13:38):
Doctor school.
Tori Dunlap (00:13:38):
Doctor school, yes. That’s what they call it in the biz, right? No, but if you’re going to law school, you’re going to be a lawyer. I think there are especially liberal arts, it’s like, how am I turning this major into career?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:13:51):
And that’s what I was.
Tori Dunlap (00:13:52):
There’s very little direction.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:13:54):
That’s me. That’s my picture right there under the definition of awards. I’ve literally majored in Africana Studies.
Tori Dunlap (00:13:59):
Oh, but right. I think that’s one place, I mean, there’s many, but that’s one place where college kind of fails.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:14:06</ a>):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:14:07):
They talk about the real world all the time in college and it’s like, yeah but how are you actually assisting me with figuring out what this English degree is going to mean.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:14:18):
Not very well. Not very well. And I knew immediately when I was a senior in college that I was not pursuing the academic route. I was not about to get a PhD. I was not-
Tori Dunlap (00:14:26):
Right, you were going to teach or-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:14:27):
I wasn’t going to teach, right.
Tori Dunlap (00:14:28):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:14:28):
I saw myself working in corporate and it’s so funny looking back. When I was a senior in college, I was really drawn to this idea of rotational programs, oh, if I can learn about a bunch of different things, that sounds really cool. Looking back that actually would’ve made me a great candidate to be even a product manager intern back then, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:14:48):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:14:48):
Because I think the key to being a great product manager is having that ability to influence your stakeholders across your business so that your product can be the best that it can be for your customers. That is essentially what a product manager does. So in my role today, I get to work with all different types of people across my company without having to call myself just one thing, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:15:13):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:15:13):
I’m not just a marketer. I’m not just a salesperson. I’m not just an engineer. I’m a product manager who gets to influence all of these different people, sit in on these conversations and be able to guide a process so that whatever my product is, whether that’s a physical product, a tangible product, a software, it can be the best version of itself for my end users and my customers. And I really fell into that.
Tori Dunlap (00:15:38):
Have you gone oh, I think that this could be better in this way?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:15:40):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:15:41):
This landing page for this-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:15:43):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:15:43):
… thing, could be tweaked in this way. Or I don’t know, this UX UI design of this app is not working in this way?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:15:50):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:15:51):
Okay. Got it.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:15:52):
Those are great examples or talking to someone in legal and saying, hey, we really need this thing approved for these reasons, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:15:58):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:15:59):
If we’re able to describe something using this kind of language, customers, it’ll resonate with them more strongly or on the engineering side, being able to say, hey, I really need this feature done by this sprint so that our product can go live when it’s intended, because we have a contractual obligation, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:16:16):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:16:17):
All of those are examples of things that product managers do. But absolutely. I think putting yourselves in the shoe of who is that person that’s has that bird’s eye view of everything going on with this thing, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:16:27):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:16:28):
This is your baby, right? As a product manager, that’s your baby, you are responsible for the highs, the lows, the ebbs and the flows. And to be able to articulate that, that urgency to the other stakeholders-
Tori Dunlap (00:16:41):
You’re kind of a professional, just like poker of just like hi.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:16:46):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:16:46):
I need this thing. Can you get me this thing please?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:16:48):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:16:49):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:16:49):
And I don’t want to paint it like it’s all butterflies and roses all the time.
Tori Dunlap (00:16:53):
No and of course that was a dramatic oversimplification of what it actually is.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:16:56):
But no, I get this question all the time because there are a lot of 9 to 5 hotties who follow me on Instagram are just like, oh my God never heard about product manager. Never heard about product management.
Tori Dunlap (00:17:04):
We have a project manager at HFK, but we do not have a product manager. What is the difference?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:17:09):
Yeah. So I think the big difference is a project manager is really focused on the delivery of individual projects. So it could be a one off, you could be supporting a larger organization, but it’s not as strategic. It’s not so much in the day to day operations of how this individual product is going to live, exist, thrive.
Tori Dunlap (00:17:31):
So it’s almost like the project managers, the product’s already done and you’re trying to figure out either how to get it out or how to market it. Is that?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:17:37):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:17:37):
Okay.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:17:37):
Those could be examples.
Tori Dunlap (00:17:38):
Okay.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:17:38):
I mean a project manager could support a product manager on specific features or-
Tori Dunlap (00:17:43):
Got it.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:17:43):
… smaller tasks or projects that really make up the overall execution. Whereas a product manager is really that person that’s like come hell or high water I’m riding by this product even if it’s like we’re in a launch and things are going well, if we’re in a low point and we have to figure out, how do we have that competitive edge? How do we turn this product around? That’s really a product manager. It is more strategic. It’s really thinking about the product life cycle. So from this is just an idea all the way to, hey, this product is done, did what it’s needed to do, let’s sunset it and replace it with something else, that person’s thinking about value overall, in terms of how do we bring value to the business, to these products so.
Tori Dunlap (00:18:22):
That makes sense.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:18:22):
I would say that’s the big difference. And I think you sometimes see that product managers, I think the bag is heavier on the product side because it is staying more strategic. And at the end of the day, product managers are driving that top line revenue for companies, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:18:37):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:18:38):
What is a company, if not its products and software?
Tori Dunlap (00:18:41):
Yeah, yeah totally.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:18:42):
So those people that are making those decisions are definitely going to be higher earners because it’s up to them to kind of make those strategic bets for the company.
Tori Dunlap (00:18:49):
Totally. What advice do you have for folks who are majoring in something in college and trying to figure out, okay, how is this applicable to the real world? What am I going to do? Especially I would like to make some money, I would like to get into tech, but I don’t have a software engineering background. What does that look like for folks?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:19:06):
Yeah. I think there are a couple things. I think one not being afraid to be a hustler. I think I was always a hustler through college. I hustled my way into internships where it was just like, I don’t know how I’m a media corporate communications intern at Viacom with an Africana Studies degree but I hustle my way in the door.
Tori Dunlap (00:19:24):
Can we define hustle? Because I feel like the word hustle is loaded now.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:19:28):
Ooh okay, that’s a good point. So when I say hustle, I mean taking a no nonsense approach to getting towards your bag. Whether that looks like going to networking events, I think, especially if you’re in college, the employers are coming to you. Are you going to the job fairs? Are you putting yourself in a position to work?
Tori Dunlap (00:19:46):
Doing informational interviews?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:19:47):
Are you doing those informational interviews? Are you networking? Are you using LinkedIn? Which, oh my God. I was in college when LinkedIn launched, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:19:55):
Yep. Me too.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:19:55):
No one knew what the hell it was.
Tori Dunlap (00:19:58):
Oh it was my favorite thing.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:19:58):
It was my favorite thing too.
Tori Dunlap (00:20:01):
I would slide to people’s DMS, be like, hello.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:20:01):
Literally.
Tori Dunlap (00:20:01):
Use the words I am a student while you still can.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:20:04):
Hello.
Tori Dunlap (00:20:05):
Hi. I’m a student. I would love 15 minutes of your time.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:20:08):
That is some free smoke right there and I hope everyone caught that. If you are a student, absolutely you should be leveraging that status to talk to as many professionals in the jobs that you want right now because who’s going to say no? I would love to give-
Tori Dunlap (00:20:21):
Very few people did.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:20:22):
Right. Very few people did.
Tori Dunlap (00:20:23):
I was shocked at how generous people were with their time. I was still shocked. 21 year old me had nothing to offer in resume but I was like, hello, I’m a student and I would really love 15 minutes of your time. Some people would stay on the phone with me for an hour.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:20:34):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:20:35):
And granted, I was always respectful and ask them, do you have more time? But crazy, how generous people were.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:20:40):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:20:41):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:20:41):
And I think when it comes to hustle, I think it also is about getting creative with the opportunities that are out there. When I was in college, product management was not this huge ethos that it has today, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:20:54):
Yeah. Wasn’t as well defined.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:20:55):
It was not right.
Tori Dunlap (00:20:56):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:20:56):
So I think if you are a college student or recent grad right now, look at associate product management programs. I literally created a reel on this a couple days ago. Every big tech company is creating pipelines to bring in early talent into their companies, through these associate programs, these rotational programs. And you don’t always have to be a recent grad to qualify. Sometimes they’re just looking for people with non-traditional backgrounds.
Tori Dunlap (00:21:20):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:21:20):
Like someone who went to a liberal arts program and wants to pivot into tech. So I think when it comes to hustle, I think it’s about putting yourself out there, not being afraid to raise your hand for those opportunities, make those connections, follow up with people, I think that is such an important overlooked skill of just not only making those initial connections, but then not being afraid to say in a couple months, hey, I know we talked for 15 minutes, way back when, here’s how it’s going. Staying on people’s radars and getting creative with the opportunities that are out here. Because I think if you’re tapped into people like me, tap people like the ninth semester, there’s so many women who are online talking about these opportunities that exist. Tap into those opportunities and put yourself out there.
Tori Dunlap (00:22:03):
Yeah. My mom always says the squeaky wheel gets the grease and I’m the squeakiest goddamn wheel you’ll ever meet.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:22:10):
Oh, just like-
Tori Dunlap (00:22:11):
I’m the squeakiest goddamn wheel. The squeaky will gets the grease. I’m just going to be here and I’m just going to be like, hello, hello, hello. I love that. And then I’ll get the grease because I’m squeaking.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:22:20):
I’ve never heard that.
Tori Dunlap (00:22:21):
Really, really?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:22:22):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:22:22):
It’s one of those, I don’t know, maybe Ben Franklin or shit some said it, but Ben Franklin had all of those random, I can’t think of any of the other ones. I doubt he said it, but yeah, that was what she always told me. And I’ve always been polite about it, but yeah. I am sliding into people’s DMs and I will message you every couple days.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:22:41):
And honestly, I think that energy is going to carry you really far when it comes to even some of the jobs that we’ve talked about already.
Tori Dunlap (00:22:47):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:22:48):
If you think you can be a good product manager, you’re afraid to follow up with people because hey, you said you would get that thing to me.
Tori Dunlap (00:22:53):
Right, right, right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:22:54):
Hey, now I’m back in your email.
Tori Dunlap (00:22:55):
You were the professional squeaky wheel who gets the grease.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:22:57):
Literally. Yeah. Hey, now I’m on your calendar.
Tori Dunlap (00:22:59):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:23:00):
Hey, you can’t get away from me.
Tori Dunlap (00:23:01):
Right. Right. That’s literally what your job is, totally. Okay. Speaking of hustle, our society glorifies work, capitalism glorifies work, how do you balance wanting to travel and take breaks and rest from your job versus advocating for, or advancing your career at the same time?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:23:21):
This is a really hard question.
Tori Dunlap (00:23:24):
Solve capitalism for me right now. That is basically what I’m asking, I guess.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:23:27):
Girl, I wish I could.
Tori Dunlap (00:23:29):
Me too.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:23:29):
I’m not much of a Marxist. I would say for me, that’s honestly been an area that I continue to struggle through and work through. I’m someone that tends to overwork to kind of-
Tori Dunlap (00:23:40):
Sounds familiar.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:23:43):
… cope with life. Life is hard.
Tori Dunlap (00:23:44):
Sounds familiar.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:23:45):
And I like to throw myself into work-
Tori Dunlap (00:23:47):
Sounds familiar.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:23:48):
… to cope with those things. So I think for me finding that balance requires a couple things. I think one really being intentional with your leaders about what it is that you want and what are those things that they feel like they need to see from you so that those things align, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:24:12):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:24:12):
So I think coming into, for example, I just started a new job a couple months ago, one of the things that I was very adamant about was I need a 30, 60, 90 plan. Let’s create one together, if you have some ideas of things that you feel like I should. And it was great because then I feel like I made my manager brain dump all of the people that she thought I should talk to, all of the things that she felt like are important.
Tori Dunlap (00:24:35):
You’re asking her what does success look like, give me the plan for it and then I will go follow the plan
Cinneah El-Amin (00:24:40):
Period, okay? Why should I reinvent the wheel when I’ve clearly been hired to do a certain job.
Tori Dunlap (00:24:45):
Or try to read your mind about what you want.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:24:47):
Exactly. Yeah. So I think that’s a great example for any 9 to 5 hottie who’s pivoting into a new job, have that on paper, have that in an email and a presentation, whatever it looks like. But have that planned documented so that when you then hit those markers, you can say, well, I’ve done all of this and this is what success was defined as-
Tori Dunlap (00:25:06):
And I’m succeeding.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:25:07):
I’ve now far exceeded that, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:25:09):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:25:09):
I’m owning these processes, I’m doing these things. These people are the ones who are giving me compliments on my work, now what? So I think continuing to have those conversations. And I think even as I think about my career over the last five years, I’ve used those moments whether it’s like midyear checkpoints, end of your checkpoints to say, here are all the things that I’ve done, that I feel like have added value to the business, helped us make money-
Tori Dunlap (00:25:35):
I would like to some more money, please.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:25:35):
I would like more money. Or I want to be promoted.
Tori Dunlap (00:25:38):
Yep.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:25:39):
What does that look like? And then I think really listening to my intuition when I just kind of feels like, if I am checking all these boxes, I’m exceeding in so many ways, you have nothing to say about my performance and now, it’s oh, just wait your turn for a promotion, that’s when I’m out, I’m out, I’m out the door.
Tori Dunlap (00:25:59):
We had so many questions about job hopping, but yes, yes.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:26:01):
So, but I think balancing that with travel is like, okay, when I have clear direction on what success looks like, I think then I’m able to say, okay, well, if there’s downtown throughout the year, I can take this trip. I can take this time off. I’m also grateful to work for companies that encourage employees to take sabbaticals. So I think this work life balance looks a little bit different at my current company than it’s ever looked before. I think for me, it’s honestly still a work in progress, but I think on the work side, it’s having that clear communication. And then on my side, I mean, they probably should have never given me unlimited PTO, because I’m going to take it. I’m going to take it.
Tori Dunlap (00:26:42):
There’s no reason they shouldn’t give it to you.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:26:44):
Right so-
Tori Dunlap (00:26:45):
If it’s unlimited-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:26:47):
Make it all unlimited. I need [crosstalk 00:26:50].
Tori Dunlap (00:26:50):
Because of me? Great. Put an asterisks on it because of me.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:26:55):
They just might.
Tori Dunlap (00:26:56):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:26:56):
They just might.
Tori Dunlap (00:26:57):
Yeah. I think there’s this interesting conversation that’s happening right now that I’m really glad is happening. It’s like, we hope you like your job, and that’s like, I have a whole chapter in my book about earning, and it’s not hustle porn, it’s not burn yourself out. It’s just like, no, let me try to help you find a job that you can at least tolerate that pays you fairly, right?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:27:21):
Yes.
Tori Dunlap (00:27:22):
So it’s like, let’s not only hope to find a job that we like, or it can at least tolerate, but if you don’t want to advance your career, there’s no pressure to do so.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:27:31):
Love that.
Tori Dunlap (00:27:32):
Right, it’s like do what you got to do in order to keep your boss off your back, to do your job well. But if this is not something that you want to progress in, this is not a company you care about and you care about either resting, yay, great and/or building something on your own. I always say phone it in, but like phone it in sounds like you’re really giving minimal effort, but do what you need to do to not ruffle any feathers.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:28:02):
Wow.
Tori Dunlap (00:28:03):
And then don’t fuck with it.
&nb
sp; Cinneah El-Amin (00:28:05):
Period. I’m so glad that you said that because now I’m also understanding the question a little bit better. And I think I’ve known for a while that I never aspire to be in a Csuite position.
Tori Dunlap (00:28:19):
Yeah. And I’m kind of leading you on with that answer because I know a bit about you about what you want, but it’s also, I think there’s this expectation, especially as women, it’s like okay, go in, give 120% constantly, stay late, be the one who always volunteers, because the goal is just to continue being career woman. And it’s like, if you don’t want to be career woman, at least not at this job or not, it doesn’t matter at all, you don’t have to do that. You don’t have to do that.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:28:47):
It’s making me also think about if you are that person who’s always been that high performer at work people will put those titles onto you and say, yeah. Oh my God, I can see you being like a VP one day. And it’s just like, girl, I don’t a fuck about this job.
Tori Dunlap (00:29:01):
Right. Well, in deciding what you actually want versus what do people expect you to want.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:29:05):
Defining what you actually want is so important. Yeah. And I think I’m really grateful to have, I think, learned about financial freedom early in my career that kind of gave me like, a blueprint to say, wait, I don’t have to do this.
Tori Dunlap (00:29:20):
I don’t have to do this.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:29:22):
I have to do this. And I think I’ve just kind of found my own spice about how I do it, how I go about that. But I think absolutely. We don’t have to live through these antiquated ideas of what it means to be a career minded women, take breaks, rest.
Tori Dunlap (00:29:39):
Yep.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:29:40):
Have kids, do whatever you want, whatever makes you feel happiest. I think for me, it’s not climbing the corporate ladder for sure.
Tori Dunlap (00:29:47):
Yep. Okay. Job hopping. My favorite fucking thing. Let’s talk about it.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:29:56):
Okay.
Tori Dunlap (00:29:57):
So for many, many years, job hopping was considered a negative thing, right? Back in the days of my dad’s generation, probably our dad’s generation, right?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:30:08):
I mean it’s different.
Tori Dunlap (00:30:09):
Sure. Yeah. But the back when you would stay at one company for 10, 15, 20 years.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:30:14):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:30:15):
My uncle is still at the same company that he was hired on when he graduated college. He’s in his sixties. He’s still at the same company. I would argue that pretty much unheard of among millennials, Gen Z, but there’s still this sort of lasting reputation that job hopping has that it is bad.
&nb
sp; Cinneah El-Amin (00:30:37):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:30:39):
Please debunk that for us.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:30:42):
Where do I start? Let’s first start with why I think that there is still this reputation, I think.
Tori Dunlap (00:30:52):
Yeah. Let’s go there.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:30:52):
I think that there’s still this idea that if you are job hopping, you are not really developing enough skills to warrant getting paid more somewhere else.
Tori Dunlap (00:31:04):
Or that you’re uncommitted, right?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:31:07):
Or lazy, which is none of those things. I feel like every time, and I’ve now worked for three different companies in less than five years as a young black woman so I mean, I would think that the stakes would be against me on that tip. Why I think I’ve been able to overcome that in my own journey is that one, I know how to tell my fucking story and I own it.
Tori Dunlap (00:31:35):
Oh.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:31:36):
And I own it.
Tori Dunlap (00:31:36):
Say it again.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:31:37):
I know how to tell my fucking story and I own it.
Tori Dunlap (00:31:40):
So can I do a hypothetical interview with you right now?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:31:42):
Let’s do it.
Tori Dunlap (00:31:42):
I’m going to put you on spot. Okay. Because I want people to see because I say, you and I are on the same wavelength. I tell people all the time, I’m like how you present yourself in the interview is not just showing up in a well dressed whatever, it’s literally, how are you cultivating the story that you’re trying to tell in order for them to take action, right?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:32:01):
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap (00:32:02):
Okay. So tell me about yourself?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:32:04):
Yeah. So hi, I’m Cinneah El-Amin. I currently work as a product manager in FinTech and I’ve spent the last five years working across the value chain in financial services on the issuer side for merchants, on the network side and together that’s really given me a well-rounded view. Girl, I got the interview voice on right now.
Tori Dunlap (00:32:22):
Yes you do. You code switch so hard.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:32:22):
So fast. Okay.
Tori Dunlap (00:32:24):
You code switch so hard. I saw it one time. It was like Superman becoming Clark Kent again.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:32:33):
Okay. But you know that I applied for a hundred jobs last year, so.
Tori Dunlap (00:32:37):
No, I know.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:32:37):
I did this a lot, but yeah that’s essentially it, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:32:40):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:32:41):
Can you, one more.
Tori Dunlap (00:32:42):
Why are you choosing to leave this current role and what are you looking for in your next?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:32:46):
I’m really glad that you asked this question.
Tori Dunlap (00:32:47):
Sorry. That’s so good.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:32:50):
I would say that actually, I’m really just curious about this opportunity. I was actually approached by a recruiter on LinkedIn who thought I would be a great fit for this open role. So I’m really excited to learn more about the opportunity here and the value that I can bring as a seasoned product manager to this role. So I’m actually using this opportunity to learn more about you and your team. And then I would ask them a question back.
Tori Dunlap (00:33:10):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:33:10):
Because no, I’m not about to talk the whole interview. You about to talk and I’m about to listen and then I’m about to yeah, okay, yeah. Give me-
Tori Dunlap (00:33:16):
No, that was perfect.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:33:17):
Literally.
Tori Dunlap (00:33:19):
No. Okay. So what she did, right? It was beautiful, very much cultivated. The tell me about yourself question, it’s like what do you want? My sexual history? My medical history? What do you want? You were very like, it’s obviously career. This is what I’ve done before. This is my experience. This is what I’m looking for now. Okay, why are you switching? I’m curious and I want to bring value to your organization as seasoned, as an experienced person, right? You are not saying like, oh, I’m really excited about this job because either I need a job or-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:33:49):
Right. No, no, no.
Tori Dunlap (00:33:50):
I don’t have any other opportunities. You are in complete position of power. Sorry, that was a fun digression. It was beautiful. Because I think a lot of people, like I say that to people all the time of cultivate your story and they’re like, okay, what does that actually look like?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:34:03):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:34:03):
So thank you for-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:34:04):
And I think that it works even if you are trying to pivot into an industry you’ve never worked in, right? That’s why I’m saying-
Tori Dunlap (00:34:09):
We’ll link it in the show notes, we have a whole workshop of how to land a job when you don’t meet the requirements.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:34:14):
I love that.
Tori Dunlap (00:34:15):
And it’s like you take, and I talk about my friend, Haley, who was not a recruiter, she worked at P. F. Chang’s. She was like the maitre d’ at P. F. Chang’s and she wanted to become a recruiter. And it was like pretty much every skill is teachable, character is not, right. So she was like, okay a recruiter needed to be able to manage their time. Well, cool. I managed my time at P. F. Chang’s. You need to be able to juggle multiple balls. And she’s like, I managed an entire restaurant basically. She was able to bridge those skills into the role that she actually wanted.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:34:45):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:34:46):
Okay. Job hopping. Sorry. Okay. Why do we feel like, okay, people think it’s lazy? People think you don’t have enough experience at that previous role to be able to garner more money, hypothetically.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:34:56):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:34:56):
Anything else?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:34:58):
I think that hits the nail in the head. I think for me, job hopping I think it’s become this buzzword, like yeah and I play into that, my content, I’m not going to lie. But let’s be honest, I’ve had to job hop out of necessity. I’ve been pushed out of jobs. I’ve been told I would have to wait for promotions. I’ve been told to put my own financial needs and the holistic vision that I had for my life and myself on hold, because they didn’t see a reason to accelerate my promotion or my higher earning. I haven’t job hopped because it’s a fun thing to do, it’s extremely hard to put yourself in a position to up skill and move to a totally different new organization where you’re learning new skills, people and things. But I’ve had to do it out of necessity.
Tori Dunlap (00:35:42):
But the fact you said out of necessity and then you listed, they’re not fast tracking me, they’re not interested in promoting me. Unfortunately, I think there’s probably a ton of people listening who have gone well, that’s been me, but that’s been me for two years and I felt like I had to be patient.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:35:58):
Fuck that.
Tori Dunlap (00:35:59):
Yes.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:36:00):
Yeah, we can curse on this show. We’ve already been cursing.
Tori Dunlap (00:36:02):
Of course, we can.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:36:02):
Yeah, fuck that. I think about the example of my own life at the beginning of 2020, I told myself I want to be debt free. Well, I can’t be debt free on this current salary so you need to make more money sis. Oh and back then there was no flying to be like yeah, you got all these followers, no, it was just me and my one paycheck, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:36:21):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:36:22):
So out of necessity, it was, I need to bring more money into my financial picture. And how am I going to do that? I should just go to a competitor company. And I just kind of put it out there and started networking and was able-
Tori Dunlap (00:36:38):
You get more power coming into a new job than you ever do at your current role.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:36:42):
Period. And I can’t say, was the grass greener on the other side?
Tori Dunlap (00:36:47):
You got the money and you got out.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:36:53):
I got the money I got out and I think it then put me in a position to be where I’m at now making multiple six figures. And if I hadn’t have had that step to get there in 18 months then I wouldn’t be here. And I also wouldn’t have had those skills that I gained at that job to say, I’m not only a product manager, but I’m a technical product manager. I can work with APIs. I can work with scripts. I think that’s the thing that I want to challenge when I talk about job hopping especially for young women, for young black women. We are upskilling every time we take on new jobs. When we are learning new processes, when we’re learning new software and tools, when we’re learning how to work with different types of clients, those are value ads that we can then take to another company.
Tori Dunlap (00:37:36):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:37:36):
This idea of sitting and waiting to be told, we are now deserving of more money, of more promotion, of more responsibility is bullshit and I think that is going to continue to keep us in a place where we are going to earn less, have less over the course of our lifetimes and I’m just not with it.
Tori Dunlap (00:37:54):
Yep.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:37:54):
Especially in I think a candidate’s market in which we are now, where being that person that owns your story and can kind of connect the dots for that person on the other side on this is how I can take exactly what I’ve done in these previous roles and be able to fill in all these gaps that you have and your team is going to make you a qualified and in-demand candidate every time.
Tori Dunlap (00:38:18):
And be interested in the job of course, but also be in the position of power because-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:38:23):
Period.
Tori Dunlap (00:38:24):
… you are interviewing them just as much, arguably more than they’re interviewing you.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:38:28):
Say that!
Tori Dunlap (00:38:28):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:38:29):
Say that! Gone are the days where we’re going into interviews like, oh, I hope they pick me. It would be their L if they don’t pick me.
Tori Dunlap (00:38:37):
Also that energy too. I know from my own experience and we know from data, somebody who goes in with that energy will not get hired because they want the best person for the job.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:38:48):
Yes.
Tori Dunlap (00:38:48):
And if you go in humble, but knowing you’re the best person for the job, you’re probably going to get the job.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:38:54):
Right. And what did you say earlier? So many things that we need to be successful in our jobs. We’re going to learn on the job. Yeah. So stop telling yourself, oh, well I don’t have all of these qualifications.
Tori Dunlap (00:39:05):
Well we know from stats-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:39:06):
I haven’t done all this.
Tori Dunlap (00:39:06):
Men will apply for jobs. I don’t know the percentage. I think it’s like 40%.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:39:11):
Yeah. 40 or 60.
Tori Dunlap (00:39:11):
40 or 50%.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:39:11):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:39:13):
Women identifying people will not apply unless they feel like they can hit, I think it’s 95% of the things on the job description. The vast majority of that you will learn on the job.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:39:24):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:39:24):
Do you work hard? Do you show up on time? Do you have the general sort of skills? Again, I’m not as a marketer about to go out and again, I don’t know why I’m picking on lawyers, go be a lawyer but most of those skills are teachable.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:39:36):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:39:38):
Every chapter of the book is like different narratives that we’re believing about money. And the earning chapter, there’s so many narratives that I think we believe of like, okay, they will see my accomplishments. So me asking for a raise, that’s ridiculous. They’ll see me and they’ll give me a promotion. Can we talk about why that’s bullshit?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:40:01):
I think there’s
so many ways that I can take this question. I think about back to a time where I worked in an organization where there were a lot of microaggressions that took place. So it was, you could be the most accomplished person, but there is still a status quo on who is getting fast tracked to promotion.
Tori Dunlap (00:40:24):
Of course.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:40:24):
Who fits the mold of what-
Tori Dunlap (00:40:27):
The culture.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:40:27):
… success looks like, right? And if you don’t look and feel that way, it doesn’t really matter how accomplished you are. There’s going to be a glass ceiling for you. So I would say that’s a big in that equation, especially for those of us and I think all of us listening have intersectional identities that don’t necessarily make us these cookie cutter types of what it means to be in these corporate or 9 to 5 traditional spaces. So what does that mean for you if you’re someone that occupies these spaces where you might be on the margins. I’ve my entire career worked in roles where I was one of the only black women or the only black woman.
Tori Dunlap (00:41:10):
For me as a white woman, I’ve worked in roles where I was the only white person.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:41:12):
Right. Come on.
Tori Dunlap (00:41:13):
It was even worse because there was no racial diversity and there was barely gender diverse.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:41:17):
So if you really think you’re in a place where you’re on the margins already, you really think that the people in charge are going to say this person’s so accomplished, let’s promote her over all of these other people? No.
Tori Dunlap (00:41:28):
Especially when the vast majority of business owners, they’re one concern is revenue.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:41:32):
Come on.
Tori Dunlap (00:41:32):
So you think that they’re going to be voluntarily, just doling out raises.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:41:36):
Come on.
Tori Dunlap (00:41:38):
Unfortunately not.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:41:39):
No, it’s not a thing.
Tori Dunlap (00:41:41):
Yep. And I think one of the other narratives is adjacent to that not only will they notice me, but if I put in my time for six months, a year, two years, three years, even if they promised me promotion before and they haven’t given it to me, I have to keep working to earn it. Also bullshit.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:42:05):
Such a fallacy. If anything, I think when I have had individuals in my life that have kind of been, kind of led on kind of bread crumbed like that, it hardly if ever turns into a favorable situation for them.
Tori Dunlap (00:42:23):
Kind of like dating where he is like I’ll propose. And it’s two years later and you’re like-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:42:27):
And why that right?
Tori Dunlap (00:42:30):
It doesn’t seem like it’s going to happen.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:42:30):
What incentive does an employer have now that you continue to give your best work over these two years? What incentive do they have to your point, even to their own profits, to give you more money when you’ve already shown that you’ll give top work for next to nothing, right? I always say that you will feel in your gut when you’re at that decision point to say, do I continue to stay at this place knowing I’m being bread crumbed? Or do I take the calculated risk to say things may not be a hundred percent better somewhere else, but having more money, having more flexibility, having more options is always going to be a better option for me.
Tori Dunlap (00:43:09):
Go see what’s out there right here.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:43:11):
Period.
Tori Dunlap (00:43:12):
We’re not telling you to go quit your job.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:43:15):
Right.
Tori Dunlap (00:43:15):
And then go find something better.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:43:17):
No, no, no, no, no. And I never done that to be fair.
Tori Dunlap (00:43:18):
Right. It’s like, at least go out even if maybe there isn’t something better. Well, at least now you know. So go out there and have conversations.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:43:25):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:43:25):
Right. It’s just like-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:43:27):
Optimize that LinkedIn and let the recruiters come to you so that you can see, oh wait, wait these skills are worth how much more? What?
Tori Dunlap (00:43:33):
Yep.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:43:34):
I think that was a big wake up call for me. Every time that I’ve job hopped is like, wait, you’re telling me, wait.
Tori Dunlap (00:43:42):
I can make 45% more?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:43:43):
Come on. How is that I-
Tori Dunlap (00:43:45):
A
nd you’re going to give me double stock?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:43:46):
Come on, come on. I’ve doubled my total compensation.
Tori Dunlap (00:43:52):
In what?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:43:52):
Literally.
Tori Dunlap (00:43:52):
Two years?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:43:53):
Girl, from my previous.
Tori Dunlap (00:43:54):
Oh Jesus. That’s amazing.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:43:56):
What?
Tori Dunlap (00:43:57):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:44:00):
So it’s like, if I had not put myself in position to say I can do more. There has to be better out here. I’m looking at all these other companies that I know have product managers there, why don’t I see what’s out there And try to get the biggest, best bet for me.
Tori Dunlap (00:44:14):
Yep.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:44:15):
And I think for me and this goes back to when we were talking about Mexico, I knew that I needed more freedom. So it’s like, I want to continue to get my bag up there. I’m definitely pursuing financial freedom. But also I’m not cut out for this office work anymore. Yeah. I’m not cut out for the smiling in my leader’s face to show that, hey-
Tori Dunlap (00:44:35):
That I’m a team player.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:44:37):
Yeah. That I’m a team player, that this FaceTime means more than the quality of my work. I’m just not for it anymore. I need to be able to work for Miami if I need to. I need to be able to work from wherever. The girls are in LA for Coachella, I’m trying to be click clackity clack from 9 to 5 and now I’m outside. So that was also important to me. And I knew that I was never going to get that at the current job that I had.
Tori Dunlap (00:45:00):
Yep.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:45:00):
So that meant I have to find something else out there and yeah I’m really happy where I’m at now. But I think I also have the perspective to know one I’ve worked incredibly hard to get here. I was very intentional and picky in my job search. Yes, I cast a wide net, but when it came down to the offers that I was going to entertain, I had non-negotiables that I was not about to give up. And I think what’s most important-
Tori Dunlap (00:45:27):
And I’ll say this, men do this all the time.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:45:30):
Ooh girl.
Tori Dunlap (00:45:32):
Because I know if I’m a listener I might be going, oh non-negotiables can I do that? Yes you can. Men do this shit all the fucking time. All the time.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:45:43):
And bring nothing to the table. Girl, you are the table.
Tori Dunlap (00:45:52):
I think the other narrative too, that’s related to all of this is “Loyalty will be rewarded,” and we’re sold this lie, I think, especially as women it’s like, okay. But loyalty and I have to get on my own soapbox for a second, a company is not loyal to you ever, ever. They will fire you. They will lay you off. Even if they do treat you well, they are sometimes forced to have to make that decision.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:46:17):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:46:17):
Right? So you should have the same ruthlessness. If it is no longer working for you, find something better. Loyalty does not benefit you. As we were talking about before. Your most leverage comes, when you are first starting a role, even if you’ve been there 10 years, even if you sign a fucking little mermaid Ursula, like blood oath, you are still not going to have as much negotiating power as when you first get in.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:46:38):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:46:38):
Which is why you fucking doubled yourself, Jesus Christ.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:46:40):
Come on.
Tori Dunlap (00:46:41):
That’s insane.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:46:41):
And I think we’re seeing that. We’re seeing these massive layoffs happen at companies, where-
Tori Dunlap (00:46:46):
Was it Netflix the other day or was it 17% or something crazy?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:46:48):
On [inaudible 00:46:48] just got rid of 10% of their workforce.
Tori Dunlap (00:46:51):
Oh boy.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:46:53):
I think the other side of that narrative around loyalty is this false sense of security, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:46:59):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:47:00):
And I think the more that we kind of tell ourselves, oh, we’re comfortable and safe here. And no, I shouldn’t be talking to recruiters. I shouldn’t be interviewing. I think that puts us in a really vulnerable place.
Tori Dunlap (00:47:08):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. If it’s not working for you, you should and you’re allowed to go find better.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:47:16):
Period. Period.
Tori Dunlap (00:47:17):
And it might take a bit, it might take three months, six months, a year one.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:47:21):
It might take the whole 2021.
Tori Dunlap (00:47:21):
Right. Right. Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:47:21):
But you’ll eventually get there sis.
Tori Dunlap (00:47:26):
And it often took me a long time.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:47:27):
Yeah. You’ll eventually get there.
Tori Dunlap (00:47:29):
I worked in tech as well. And I think for our community of women, many people want to break into or pivot into tech because at least on the surface or like face value, it seems very lucrative, right?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:47:41):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:47:42):
I know. There’s a lot of downsides.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:47:43):
Definitely.
Tori Dunlap (00:47:44):
So what would you tell women looking to move into this space to make sure they’re actually getting the best benefits without either selling their soul or having to sacrifice something that’s truly important to them?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:47:58):
Yeah. I mean, I think it first starts with understanding what are those things that are most important to you, because I could be talking all day and night about, about equity, about unlimited PTO. But if you know that in the next two years, you really want to start a family, you want to be able to take care of loved ones and you need to have that kind of support-
Tori Dunlap (00:48:20):
Then leave is important.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:48:21):
Then leave is important, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:48:22):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:48:22):
Then having periods where you can take time off and your job is guaranteed even if that means you’re taking care of family and other things. I think really having that list for you, right. I’m a young, single woman so what was important to me was having equity so that I am building wealth without even trying, without literally doing anything. It was having a limited PTO so that I could continue to prioritize travel and it not come the expense of my job. It was seeing my base salary increase so that I could continue to have more income to put towards investments, which is going to help me retire early.
Tori Dunlap (00:48:57):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:48:57):
Right those were my non-negotiables, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:48:59):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:49:00):
And it was fully remote because again, I’m not about that office life no more. I’m not an office hottie no more. We did that. So those were my non-negotiables, but yours might be something else. And I think really sitting with yourself and understanding what are the things that you really have enjoyed about past roles when it comes to the benefit side and what are some things that you’re curious about? I’ve never worked a job before where I had equity or unlimited PTO. It was something I was curious about and that curiosity-
Tori Dunlap (00:49:25):
Its like HTTV. It’s like, you’re going house shopping.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:49:28):
What’s my budget?
Tori Dunlap (00:49:29):
Right. Do I need an entertaining kitchen? The kitchen I can entertain in, that’s always it. Oh, it’s a pool, I’ve never thought about having a pool.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:49:38):
Exactly.
Tori Dunlap (00:49:38):
Do I want the upkeep of a pool, but pool parties are fun.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:49:41):
Yeah. And that’s exactly what I was going to say. I think with that curiosity about some of the other benefits that exist, I think then that can help you direct your energy towards those companies that do it the best ways, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:49:51):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:49:52):
We talked about unlimited PTO. It’s not a perfect benefit by any means but you might say if that’s important to you, can you work for a company that has some of those guidelines in place already? So you’re going to be not shamed for it.
Tori Dunlap (00:50:04):
Or maybe you can’t get unlimited PTO, but you can get three weeks, four weeks or something larger than the standard, was it like 10 days.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:50:10):
Right. Yeah. Or maybe you work for a company that maybe doesn’t have unlimited PTO, but maybe they have summer Fridays where you only have a half day Friday, or once a quarter wellness days. There’s so many things that companies are thinking about nowadays to keep employees happy. So I think really figuring out what that looks like for you and then knowing what your trade offs are. I think that the downsides of just kind of seeing tech as a monolith is that we all have such varying degrees of experience even within these big companies.
Tori Dunlap (00:50:40):
Well, it depends on your role. Depends on, yeah-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:50:42):
Depends on so many things, right? Even at a company that could be an amazing place to work, maybe it’s consistently higher ranking on these lists that ink and some of these other companies do, you might land on a team that has a very intense culture. You might work under a leader who has… yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:51:00):
Let’s talk about that for a second. Because I live in Seattle, Amazon, Starbucks, Boeing, Microsoft, all these huge companies. And I think with something like, because I have friends who work at Amazon. Amazon’s s
o big. I think people don’t realize that when you are hired really you don’t work at Amazon you work at your team at Amazon.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:51:20):
Yes.
Tori Dunlap (00:51:20):
Right? So it’s like your manager, your team is the people you’re going to be experiencing your day to day with. So again, during that interview process, it’s even more important to figure out, am I going to be respected? Am I going to be advocated for, is this person relatively fun to be around? Because that’s the person you were going to be talking to and who is also now in charge of advocating for you with higher ups, because you’re not going to Bezos and being like, hello, excuse me, I would like a raise please.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:51:48):
Come on.
Tori Dunlap (00:51:49):
So can you talk a bit about-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:51:51):
Yes.
Tori Dunlap (00:51:52):
… that, of many companies within a company basically.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:51:55):
Absolutely. I mean, you hit the nail in the head. I think that you could work for a company that is such an amazing place to work and then work on later who’s literally making your life hell. And it’s very possible and it happens all the time. I think for me, what has helped is in those interview cycles, not being afraid to ask the sometimes uncomfortable questions, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:52:20):
Yes.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:52:20):
Some of those questions, like can you tell me about who filled this role in the past, right? Is this a role that’s being backfilled? Is this a brand new role? That can give you some insights, right? Is there turnover on this team that you are not aware of, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:52:36):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:52:36):
Because I’ve definitely been in those situations where hey, maybe someone didn’t kind of tell me on the side, hey, this team has a lot of turnover because the manager at the top is crazy. So I’m thinking just out of the events that happened in Buffalo this week, asking those people that you’re going to report into, what employee resource groups are you a part of? Are you involved in these communities? Asking the question of, hey-
Tori Dunlap (00:53:02):
What’s the DEI initiatives?
Cinneah El-Amin (00:53:04):
Right. How have you championed diversity inclusion on this team? I noticed that there are no people of color in my interview process. Will this be reflective of my experience on this team? And if so, what are you doing to change that? Because it’s 2022, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:53:17):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:53:17):
And obviously I’m being sassy with it, but-
Tori Dunlap (00:53:22):
No, those are the questions to ask.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:53:24):
Such are the questions to ask and I think you’ve said it multiple times, Tori, as much as those companies are interviewing you need to be interviewing those potential teammates.
Tori Dunlap (00:53:33):
And again, they will respect you more and think higher of you and you are more likely to get the job with that kind of energy.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:53:41):
And then something else that we will call and also say, even when you get a job, you can keep interviewing sis like you can come on, you might get in the doors and realize y’all sold a dream.
Tori Dunlap (00:53:51):
Every job is an open relationship. Every job is an open relationship.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:53:54):
Come on. You’re an at will employee. So in the same-
Tori Dunlap (00:53:57):
Most employers are at will employers.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:53:59):
Come on.
Tori Dunlap (00:53:59):
Yep.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:54:00):
So also keep that in mind that you don’t have to be locked into any situation just because, oh, I just accepted this job. It’s not what I expected, girl keep interviewing, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:54:09):
I quit a job after 12 weeks because it was so toxic. And granted, I spent three months unemployed, but had an emergency fund would a hundred percent do it again.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:54:17):
Yeah. Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:54:18):
Because I couldn’t do it. Yeah. And I know people who’ve been in jobs for years.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:54:24):
Come on.
Tori Dunlap (00:54:24):
Because it’s like, okay, I have to tough it out.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:54:28):
At this point, the price of your piece is sometimes worth a lot more than what you think you’re going to get out of staying in a job that’s not fit for you or staying in a team where you know that it’s going to be an isolating experience. No one wants that and no one should have to deal with that, right?
Tori Dunlap (00:54:45):
No.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:54:46):
It’s hard enough, right? You are a hard worker, you bring great skills. You do not have to sit in a space where you feel like you’re not being included, where you don’t feel like your voice is being heard, where you don’t feel seen those things matter.
Tori Dunlap (00:55:02):
Definitely.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:55:03):
In terms of how you’ll continue to thrive in that role.
Tori Dunlap (00:55:06):
Yeah. So you and I have very similar trajectories. HFK was a side hustle for me. You are working a 9 to 5, finance’s just a side hustle.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:55:16):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (00:55:17):
How are you managing both? What sort of tips or tricks do you have for people? What are the fun parts of that? What are the not so fun parts about that? Break that down for me.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:55:26):
Yeah. So coming out of 2021 where I definitely put myself through a incredible amount of burnout by trying to think I could travel. I could create content. I could work a 9 to 5. I could have a social life all in one.
Tori Dunlap (00:55:40):
And I can also keep applying for jobs.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:55:42):
Yeah. Girl, like ma’am, you’re not Superman. I think for me, it’s being very clear on my boundaries of when work starts and when work ends. So outside of my 9 to 5 is my time to dedicate time to time block for my business. But between 9 to 5 hours short of, okay, if I have a little whim or something comes to mind that I want to hop on stories, I’m not working in my business. I’m delegating that elsewhere. I’m outsourcing that. Or I’m just letting things wait until I can put my attention on it. I think that’s huge, right? I think, especially for those of us that are pivoting into remote jobs, I think we think, oh yeah, I can just create reels in this side, girl don’t. Don’t set yourself up for that. One in terms of being able to be present in your job but then two that’ll turn to burnout real easy when it’s just like-
Tori Dunlap (00:56:35):
The pace of this.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:56:36):
It’s not sustainable. It’s not sustainable. So I think a trick that’s really helped me is really time blocking. So it’s not to say that I can’t find that balance, but I think for me, it’s like, hey, they’re going to be two days out of the week, every week where I’m just not doing anything. I’m not agreeing to go out. I’m not agreeing to sign up for all these things. Oftentimes we’re overscheduling ourselves because we think, oh yeah, it’s free time.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:57:04):
No, keep some time that’s sacred for yourself to invest in your side hustle, to work on things that are important. And then set aside those days to say, yeah this is going to be a content day. This is going to be a pitch day. This is going to be whatever that looks like for your business, right? And I think for me, it’s also, I think, find that balance to say, if I can find the time to go out, party, chill with my friends, then where can I also find the time to invest in myself? This is something I’m passionate about. I know that this is part of the purpose that I have on this planet.
Tori Dunlap (00:57:34):
Yep.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:57:35):
I have to tell myself that it’s like, I can’t let my side hustle or my business just kind of feel like, oh, it’s just a hobby I do on the side, girl no, this is something that’s important to you. So in the same vein that you can find 40 hours every week to put towards your 9 to 5, we can find at least 10 a week to put towards our business. And if there are things additionally that I need, then that’s a great opportunity to bring in someone to get that off your plate. Because girl, you don’t have to do everything and you shouldn’t have to do everything. So those have been kind of some of the tricks. I think the downside is that and we kind of talked about this off mic, but it kind of feels like I’m always working. Being an entrepreneur, having ideas, still feeling like there’s so much more that I want to do. It does kind of feel like I’m always thinking about ways I could improve my business, take it to the next level.
Tori Dunlap (00:58:25):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:58:26):
And I think I’m also in this space where I just kind of realize, I don’t really have no hobbies no more except for traveling, working, working for myself and working out.
Tori Dunlap (00:58:35):
I had my most recent partner was like, you don’t have a hobby.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:58:40):
Do I hobbies?
Tori Dunlap (00:58:42):
I’m like, my business was my hobby. He’s like, well now your business is your full-time thing. So what’s your hobby? And I’m like reading, which is a hobby.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:58:48):
Yeah. It is a hobby.
Tori Dunlap (00:58:50):
I’m like thinking about my business.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:58:54):
Journaling.
Tori Dunlap (00:58:55):
Yeah that’s a hobby.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:58:56):
About my business.
Tori Dunlap (00:58:59):
Reading self-development books, listening to podcast about my business. No, it’s true.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:59:06):
Literally. So I think I’m still figuring that out. I’m definitely still a 9 to 5 hottie. I’m having the grind season, but it’s fine. It’s fine.
Tori Dunlap (00:59:17):
No and I think a lot of people ask me about that and again, when we talk about this in the book, I keep shamelessly plugging it. But because, but you talk about all-
Cinneah El-Amin (00:59:22):
And you should. It’s your podcast so you should.
Tori Dunlap (00:59:26):
Yes. It’s my podcast so I do what I fucking want. I think again, it’s easy to feel like that’s why I asked you to define hustle because when I was growing my business on the side, I was hustling my ass off.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:59:36):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:59:37):
But I was still getting eight hours of sleep.
Cinneah El-Amin (00:59:39):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (00:59:39):
That was my non-negotiable. I could not operate, I still can’t, I cannot operate on a bad night’s sleep. I just can’t do it. And it was like, I am willing to work because this thing to your point is the thing I love to do and the thing I really want. N
ow if you’re doing this and if there’s privilege in this statement too, because some people side hustle, it’s not a side hustle, it’s a second job.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:00:01):
Absolutely.
Tori Dunlap (01:00:02):
So we have to acknowledge that. For people who are using a side hustle as not a necessity, if you don’t absolutely love it, cool do it a minimum amount of hours or like forego it. You don’t need it.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:00:14):
Yeah.
Tori Dunlap (01:00:15):
But I think for you and I, it was like, no, this is the thing I want to do and yes, it is work, but it doesn’t really feel like work because we’re building shit.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:00:24):
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think for me, I think I have to also hold myself accountable to know that not so long ago. I mean literally three years ago I was in a place where I literally thought no one would, I couldn’t imagine myself having a platform that I have, talking about personal finance, talking about money, talking about things that I was once so ashamed to talk about to even like my friends and family about let alone a hundred thousand people online about, right?
Tori Dunlap (01:00:52):
Right.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:00:53):
I’ve made money, mistakes.
Tori Dunlap (01:00:55):
We all have.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:00:55):
I’ve never thought that I would be someone that would be a personal finance creator, influencer.
Tori Dunlap (01:01:01):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:01:01):
Girl. I was like, if you literally found me in 2018 and was just like, yeah one day you’ll be like, girl, I would’ve been like what?
Tori Dunlap (01:01:10):
I say the same thing. I was a theater and communication major.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:01:13):
Really?
Tori Dunlap (01:01:13):
The first question people meet me and they’re like, oh you studied finance. And I’m like no I did not.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:01:20):
No, no, no. Yeah. So I think also remembering the woman that I was, the woman that I want to become, I think that also motivates me to say absolutely like what you’re saying. I’m not going to kill myself to make this business what I wanted to be. But I know that there’s so much more that I want to give to it because not so long ago, I couldn’t even imagine this space and I know how life changing the content I’ve been able to put out there how it’s helping other women so that makes me know that I’m on the right path so we got to keep going.
Tori Dunlap (01:01:55):
You reached the 100K club recently.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:02:00):
Girl, did I?
Tori Dunlap (01:02:00):
Welcome. Welcome-
Cinneah El-Amin (01:02:00):
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap (01:02:00):
To Her First $100K.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:02:01):
Thank you.
Tori Dunlap (01:02:01):
What is your next major goal, financial or otherwise?
Cinneah El-Amin (01:02:05):
I would say my next major goal financially is really to hit that next big financial independence milestone, like of a 200K net worth or higher.
Tori Dunlap (01:02:17):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:02:18):
I think on my business side, definitely to do six figures in revenue this year is something I’m not just wishing for, but actively projecting and definitely plan to hit before the end of the year. And then just as an aside, I’m going to put it out there because I’m a master manifestor, I really want to buy my mom a really nice car, and I want my business to be able to do that. She’s given me so much and I want to be able to give her things that-
Tori Dunlap (01:02:46):
You make me slightly teary. That’s lovely.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:02:49):
So I want to put that out there and just kind of make space for that because when I think about my business and I’m so glad that you said that I feel incredibly privileged to know that I’m here doing this because I want to, doing this because I feel like there is a voice that’s missing in this space.
Tori Dunlap (01:03:07):
And it’s something you love and brings you joy and energy.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:03:09):
Yes.
Tori Dunlap (01:03:09):
Rather than depleting it.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:03:10):
Yeah. And I think with that, I have a lot of integrity about the things that I put out there, the brands I choose to work with. So I think seeing my business be successful means that I can pour into the women around me and that’s always going to start with the women that literally gave me everything so that I could even be in this position. So I’ll put that out there too. That’s a big goal that I have for myself. And I would love to be able to do that for her this year.
Tori Dunlap (01:03:37):
I love it. Okay. A couple rapid fire things.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:03:39):
Let’s do it.
Tori Dunlap (01:03:40):
Okay. What are you saying to the person who’s either graduating high school or graduating college and has no idea what the fuck they want to do?
Cinneah El-Amin (01:03:47):
I am saying sis get on LinkedIn. Don’t be afraid to connect with as many people as possible in the jobs that you think are even remotely interesting. Get on some newsletters of people that are talking about internships and early grad careers like the ninth semester and stop telling yourself that just because you didn’t major in X, Y, Z, you’re not capable of doing these things because I think we’ve shown over this episode that you can do whatever you put your mind to.
Tori Dunlap (01:04:14):
Yeah. Yep.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:04:15):
And there’s always space to reinvent yourself if you want to.
Tori Dunlap (01:04:18):
Always. I think you’re going to have a similar answer, but somebody who’s in a career and wants to get out and try something new?
Cinneah El-Amin (01:04:25):
I would say sis to really sit down, think about what are those transferable skills that you have, and really start to just plug those into some of these job sites and see what comes back. I think sometimes we need to sit down and really do a bit of discovery, right?
Tori Dunlap (01:04:40):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:04:40):
To kind of see what are the jobs that are already aligned with the skills that I have. Just because I’ve always been an executive assistant doesn’t mean I can’t become a program manager tomorrow in tech, right?
Tori Dunlap (01:04:50):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:04:50):
The jobs are the same. But we call them different, we pay them differently but that doesn’t mean that you’re not qualified to do it. So I would say really lean into that discovery, look into what those transferable skills that you have, follow more creators like me who are giving you a taste of the jobs that are out there.
Tori Dunlap (01:05:05):
Yeah.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:05:06):
And just try some shit, right? There’s no wrong way that you can go about your career. There’s no wrong way.
Tori Dunlap (01:05:13):
No.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:05:13):
There’s no wrong way. You’re always going to learn things that are going to put you in a position to win in the next or next, next, next time’s over.
Tori Dunlap (01:05:21):
Lastly, somebody who keeps getting passed over for promotion and feels like they have to stay?
Cinneah El-Amin (01:05:27):
Girl, get the fuck out of there. Seriously, stop giving your years and especially if you are a young woman, I mean, if you, if you’re below the age of 35, especially, these are some of our prime earning years in terms of the time that we have that we could be putting this money and compounding it to help us build wealth. Do not sit around and let these people bread crumb you girl, stop letting them play with your money and let’s get you pivoting into another well paid job so that you can see that there’s so much more opportunity out here.
Tori Dunlap (01:06:01):
I love it. Tell us where people can find you?
Cinneah El-Amin (01:06:05):
The girls, the 9 to 5 hotties can always find me really anywhere on social media, where you can find Flynanced. I’m on Instagram at Fly.nanced. My website is flynanced.com. That’s F-L-Y-A-N-C-E-D.com. You can email me at hello@flynanced.com. And I’d love to hear from you. Definitely let me know that you heard me on the Financial Feminist podcast.
Tori Dunlap (01:06:29):
I love it. Thank you for being here.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:06:30):
Thank you for having me Tori and for always seeing me and supporting me.
Tori Dunlap (01:06:36):
Least I can do.
Cinneah El-Amin (01:06:37):
You are incredible. I feel so blessed to be able to share this space with you, to be able to see another young woman creator just kicking ass and taking names and showing us we could create whatever the fuck we want in this world. I love it. I love your energy. So thank you for having me.
Tori Dunlap (01:06:54):
Thank you babe.
Tori Dunlap (01:06:56):
Thank you again to Cinneah for joining us. We are so thrilled to share more of her expertise and background over on our social channels and we’ll make sure to link her handles in the show notes as well. If you’re not following us at Her First $100K, that is the best place to get even more additional content. If y’all think the podcast is valuable, imagine what our Instagram TikTok, our website look like, herfirst100k.com y’all. If you want more content like this, make sure to subscribe to Financial Feminist on your preferred podcasting platform, leave us a review and share the show with your friends and family. It means the world to us, and it helps us continue to do valuable episodes like this one. Thank you as always Financial Feminists for your support of the show, for your support of this movement, I’m going to do a quick shameless plug for my book.
Tori Dunlap (01:07:38):
If you have not pre-ordered my brand new book, Financial Feminist: Overcome the Patriarchy’s Bullsh*t to Master Your Money and Build a Life You Love, it is available in e-book audiobook, as well as physical copy, wherever you get your books, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Books-A-Million, your independent bookstore. People keep asking me like, is it going to be at this bookstore? Y’all this is going to be a national thing. It’s going to be at every bookstore. And if you pre-order it’s going to be guaranteed to be at all these bookstores. So if you haven’t got your copy, it’s like less than $20, I can’t wait for you to read it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. See you next week.
Tori Dunlap (01:08:14):
Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Olivia Coning, Cherise Wade, Alena Helzer , Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko, Jack Coning, and Ana Alexandra. Research by Ariel Johnson, audio engineering by Austin Fields, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests, episode show notes and our upcoming book also titled Financial Feminist visit herfirst100k.com.
Tori Dunlap
Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over one million women negotiate salary, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.
Tori’s work has been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, BBC, TIME, PEOPLE, CNN, New York Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, BuzzFeed, and more.
With a dedicated following of almost 250,000 on Instagram and more than 1.6 million on TikTok —and multiple instances of her story going viral—Tori’s unique take on financial advice has made her the go-to voice for ambitious millennial women. CNBC called Tori “the voice of financial confidence for women.”
An honors graduate of the University of Portland, Tori currently lives in Seattle, where she enjoys eating fried chicken, going to barre classes, and attempting to naturally work John Mulaney bits into conversation.
